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Sea G Ryhdr is planning something that keeps her up at night — driving a covered wagon across America with two spicy ponies, a corgi named Thick, and a whole lot of questions. In this Q&A, Bernie Harberts answers the ones that matter most before she takes off.
Sea G is an experienced long rider who has covered thousands of miles on horseback. Now she's stepping up to a nine-and-a-half foot covered wagon pulled by a team of Welsh ponies — and she wants to know what she doesn't know.
Bernie covers the real-world wagon travel skills that don't show up in books — from navigating cattle guards with no gate to teaching ponies to hold a wagon back going downhill, managing a corgi on the road, and if (or if not) a traveling horse needs to wear a diaper in town.
In this episode:
How to get a wagon through a gate when the reins aren't long enough
Getting across a cattle guard uphill — with and without a gate
What to do when the gate is padlocked
Tying up at a grocery store — and what can go wrong
Check reins — why Bernie doesn't use them
How long to work with horses before departure
Breastplate versus collar — friction, calluses, and show sheen
Short first days — why two miles is enough
Trotting versus walking — the pre-flight routine
Voice commands for driving
Walking next to a team versus riding in the wagon
Teaching ponies to hold a wagon back going downhill
Backing a wagon without teaching your horse to rear
Manure management on the road
Traveling with a corgi — harnesses, safety, and Angela Wood's advice
Want the full Travel Grit conversation with Sea G Ryhdr? https://travelgrit.com/how-to-drive-a-wagon-through-america-what-you-need-to-know-before-you-go/
Follow Sea's upcoming wagon voyage at https://freerangerodeo.com/.
Follow Sea's upcoming wagon voyage at https://freerangerodeo.com/.
For more stories of long riders, sailors, ramblers, adventurers, and dreamers finding their way, visit TravelGrit.com.
Creators and Guests
What is Gritty Bits by Travel Grit?
Gritty Bits is the companion show to Travel Grit — more from the world of legendary travelers who move by hoof, sail, and boot. Catch Q&A sessions with long riders, sailors, and adventurers. Check in on past guests with Where Are They Now. And pick up hard-won practical knowledge in Three Things You Need to Know — straight from the people who've lived it. For more stories of long riders, sailors, ramblers, adventurers, and dreamers finding their way, visit TravelGrit.com.
TRANSCRIPT
Autogenerated transcript. May contain errors. Refer to the audio or video for accuracy.
Sea G Ryhdr Q&A: Wagon Travel Across America
A Gritty Bits episode | Companion to Travel Grit
This episode is a Q&A from the full Travel Grit conversation with Sea G Ryhdr. Listen to the complete episode at:
https://travelgrit.com/how-to-drive-a-wagon-through-america-what-you-need-to-know-before-you-go/
Bernie Harberts (00:05)
What are the top three things you want to go over today?
Sea G Ryhdr (00:09)
Gates.
Bernie Harberts (00:13)
Gates — like horse gates or corral gates?
Sea G Ryhdr (00:14)
Gates like when you're going down the road and you've got a choice between a cattle guard and a gate. You're obviously not going over the cattle guard, so you have to go through the gate. But the reins aren't long enough to hang on to your mule or your horse on the other side of the gate while you go back and shut it. For some reason that is my biggest stress right now — how to go through a gate when you're driving.
Bernie Harberts (00:28)
I really wish the Lost Sea Expedition full-length feature film was already published on YouTube because I show exactly what I do in it. I was coming uphill to a cattle guard with a gate next to it. This was with Polly. What I did was — as I came up the hill, I got a rock in my hand, walked her up, and as soon as I got to the fence next to the gate I tied her off. Then I ran back and stuck the rock under the wagon wheel to block it. I did have brakes at that point, but they were busted. So just keep that in mind.
Sea G Ryhdr (01:38)
Okay. Also — the brake requires my foot on it to be engaged.
Bernie Harberts (01:52)
So you don't have a locking brake?
Sea G Ryhdr (01:56)
Not that I know of. The wagon is being built right now.
Bernie Harberts (02:01)
On that type of wagon you probably won't have what I'd call a park brake. The Pioneer wagon and the forecart I use has a little cam and latch so you can push the brake pedal down and lock it. Mine was busted, so I just put a rock behind the wheel so it doesn't slide back. Not something you carry — you just find one on the road.
Then I tied Polly off to the fence, got out, and scoped everything out. Once you're tied off, you're safe. I knew the gate would work but she couldn't pull the wagon through — it was too narrow. It was a wire gate. This is why it ended up in the documentary. It was the perfect horrible situation.
So my plan was — pull the wagon right up to the cattle guard. She can't pull it across, so I stop her there, unhook her, walk her through the gate, take her to the other side, and tie her up. Stabilize the horse first, then the wagon. Then I pulled the wagon myself across the cattle guard — bump, bump, bump, bump. Got across, put the rock back under the wheel, set the brake, and then hooked Polly back up.
Sea G Ryhdr (04:08)
I hope I'm strong enough to do that.
Bernie Harberts (04:17)
There's a solution if you can't. In the documentary version, I couldn't do it either. So what I did was — wagon sitting in front of the cattle guard, Polly on the other side, I took my picket rope, backed Polly up with really long lines, attached the picket to the wagon shafts, then stepped Polly up and she pulled the wagon across the cattle guard herself. Then I chalked the wheel, undid the picket, and put her back in the shafts. That's how you get across a cattle guard uphill with a wagon too heavy to pull across yourself.
Sea G Ryhdr (05:17)
That answers it. Thank you. This has been the thing keeping me up at night. Now I can sleep.
What if there's no gate next to the cattle guard? Did you carry boards?
Bernie Harberts (05:34)
I did not carry boards. On two occasions out West I came to padlocked gates. In both cases I was able to find where I could unwire the wire from the post next to the gate, pull the wire back, lead Polly through, and then pull the wagon over the cattle guard. If you've only got a three or four foot opening you've made, you're not getting your wagon through — but you can get the animal through and then pull the wagon across yourself.
Out of respect, I always wired the fence back up. But padlocked gates — that is a violation of the code of the West. You never lock a gate.
Sea G Ryhdr (06:18)
My wagon is going to be close to five feet wide. I wanted three feet of bed width to have enough room, but I'm not going to sleep in a two-foot-wide coffin.
Bernie Harberts (06:44)
Right. So that's how you get a five-foot wagon across a cattle guard when there's no gate but there is a two-foot opening in the fence.
Sea G Ryhdr (07:06)
When you come up to a grocery store to reprovision, you tie Polly up outside. Did people ever mess with her or your stuff?
Bernie Harberts (07:20)
Not in a way that was dangerous, but I was always very aware that people do crazy stuff. Polly does not like to be ridden — she threw a guy, crushed his collarbones, sent him to the hospital. Imagine my surprise when I come out of a grocery store one day and there's a kid sitting on Polly's back that some parent hoisted up there for a photo op. It turned out fine, but my rule of thumb was get in, get out, tie up somewhere behind the store if at all possible. Attention can be great, but a grocery store parking lot is not the place to look for it.
Sea G Ryhdr (08:31)
I'm worried about people feeding my ponies a box of sugar cubes.
Bernie Harberts (08:52)
That never actually happened to me. Another thing to think about — quite often if I was going into a tractor supply, I'd make it coincide with a lunch break. Pull the wagon behind the store, find a tree and a little grass, take her out of the harness, and just let her eat. That way going into the store was her lunch break.
Sea G Ryhdr (09:37)
Did you use a check rein?
Bernie Harberts (09:37)
I did not. A check rein keeps their head up so if they run, they can't tuck their chin to their chest and take off with the bit. But the problem is it also keeps them from grazing the bar ditch. A horse needs to move as freely and comfortably as possible. I don't like martingales, I don't use draw reins, I don't use any of that. If they're tired or coming to a hill, a check rein keeps their head up in the air and they can't pull and lean into the collar.
Sea G Ryhdr (10:29)
Did you have to do any untraining to get rid of it, or can you just take it off? They're using it now in training.
Bernie Harberts (10:36)
I never used it. I'd just not use it. I don't think there's any untraining — it's more important to build a really good foundation with the animal.
Sea G Ryhdr (11:00)
How long did you work with Polly before you took off? I'm going to have a week or two, which seems crazy short.
Bernie Harberts (11:06)
I tried her out on a trip with another mule as part of a team and she was perfect. I could have left a week after I bought her. She was 12 years old, broke, tempered right, just a great mule. In the case of Polly, I did have her a couple of months before I took off. But in the past I'd leave quicker without having the relationship, and physically I could do it — but there was a lot more reflexive rodeo riding. The solidest stuff you want to avoid. I would do it differently now. I'd spend more time. These horses don't know you. They're like — who's this?
Sea G Ryhdr (12:26)
They're seven and eight years old and they got picked because they're too spicy, too forward for kids to ride. I've watched video of them trotting 11 miles an hour down the road, these tiny little ponies literally chomping at the bit. With little kids that's not what you want. But for going 10 to 15 miles a day down the road — might be perfect.
Bernie Harberts (13:02)
Right. So they're in work now. When do you get them?
Sea G Ryhdr (13:08)
They'll be in work the second week of March. They'll have two or three weeks of work before I get there, and then a week or two after I arrive with me doing it. I still need to teach them how to tether. If we can't tether, we can't go. What are the specific skills a driving horse needs before I take off?
Bernie Harberts (13:35)
As far as driving, obviously they need to be pretty road reliable — but it sounds like that's under control. What's a little different going from where they are now to where you need them is the wagon itself. Right now they're pulling a two-wheel cart. They're going to be pulling a nine-and-a-half foot covered wagon. That's considerably more weight and more distance than they're used to.
The first thing I'd do is spend time with them. You're going to be there living with them — that's the foundation under this whole voyage. Everything else is technical, but that bond is what goes under everything.
On the technical side — they're in a breastplate, right?
Sea G Ryhdr (14:52)
Breastplate. I haven't found a collar small enough for ponies. It's biothane.
Bernie Harberts (15:13)
Perfect. When you go from a two-wheel cart to a wagon, your weight goes up significantly. There's two things happening with the breastplate — pressure from them leaning into it, and wear from it moving back and forth. A tech hack I use is show sheen, cowboy magic, any silicone product — just smear it under where the breastplate is going to sit. Helps reduce friction. Same principle as a saddle pad.
The skin also isn't used to that pressure yet — they don't have the calluses built up. That takes time. Short days to start — your first day probably shouldn't be more than five miles. Maybe two.
Sea G Ryhdr (17:35)
The person who told me to put this out as an ebook is friends with 4,000 people in a horseman club in Ohio. So I'm going to work with her to get really short days to start. I want the ponies to think we're just out on a picnic. That's the plan.
Bernie Harberts (17:49)
I love it. Literally if you could go two to five miles — that sounds like nothing, but from long riding you know it takes so little time to get a sore and so long to heal it. The temptation in those early days is always — we could go another hour, another two hours. We all need to work on that.
Sea G Ryhdr (18:37)
How much time did you spend trotting versus walking?
Bernie Harberts (18:42)
Very little. In the morning when I first hooked Polly up she wanted to go. Instead of fighting with her in her mouth I just let her trot. The key is the most important gait is whoa. Harness her up, hook her up, have her stand in the shafts. Ask her to step up, walk a little, get her in the habit of whoa, walk, and then maybe trot. With a team, if you hook them up and they know they can trot right away — it's not going to end well. Some days you might need to stand 10 to 15 minutes. Loose reins, hit the brake so it goes BAM, and they'll think — here we go. Nope. Just stand. That might be all you do that day.
Sea G Ryhdr (19:54)
I have never seen these ponies standing in harness. They really want to go.
Bernie Harberts (19:57)
Which is great — but Angela Wood, a fantastic teamster and wagon traveler, got run over by her own wagon in Asheville, North Carolina because her horses took off while she was on the ground. So that standing is something to work on. That's just conditioning.
Have a pre-flight routine — harnessed, standing, corgi loaded, and everyone just sits. Maybe do the standing at the end of the day after they've worked a little to condition them that they can stand in the shafts. Then once they're walking well — fine to trot out, but come back to walk sooner rather than later to cut down on friction from trotting too long.
Sea G Ryhdr (21:57)
How many voice commands do you have before you take off?
Bernie Harberts (22:05)
I get in the wagon, say hi to Polly, and ask her to step up and she walks off. I use gee for right, haw for left, easy for slow down, and ho for stop. Whoa doesn't mean slow down — it means stop. Full stop. And step up means a little faster. That's it. Very simple.
Polly still doesn't really respond to gee and haw but she almost telepathically feels my intent. I can just close the fingers on my right hand and think turning right and she turns right. It's just our connection.
Sea G Ryhdr (23:27)
When you're on the ground walking with Polly, you're up by her head. I've seen Gypsy people walking back by their wagon with a team. What are the pros and cons?
Bernie Harberts (23:32)
I don't like walking next to teams because I feel like I've got a lot more control in the wagon than on the ground next to them. If I'm walking on the left side and something spooks the left horse, all I can do is pull on that rein — which turns the horse right into me. You can't walk all day reaching across holding the bridle of the far horse.
That said — being up at their heads does give them a better sense of connection to you. It's the three of us. I like that bond. If I had to walk with a team, I'd rather be up at their heads than back at their hindquarters.
Sea G Ryhdr (27:30)
If we're going up a hill I'm going to want to get out and walk to make it easier for them. Where do I position myself?
Bernie Harberts (27:39)
Good for you. And one thing in your favor — these are not 2,000-pound 18-hand Percherons. These are ponies. You'll have a lot more inclusion in that space. But remember that wheel. It is so easy to get run down by your own wagon.
Sea G Ryhdr (28:37)
I'm worried about my dog in that way.
Bernie Harberts (28:42)
What's the dog's name?
Sea G Ryhdr (28:50)
Thicke. He's a corgi, eight years old, really strong herding instinct, and obsessed with chains and whips. I'm getting him a harness with a sternum strap so I can pick him up by a handle on his back and lift him into the wagon if I need to. I want to be able to clip him into the wagon so he can't jump out. There's also a thing mountain bikers use — a stick that goes out to the side with the leash on the end, so he can run alongside but can't get underneath the wagon. I'm assuming by the time we get to Nebraska on dirt roads he'll be smart enough to just run loose.
Bernie Harberts (30:17)
Talk to Angela Wood. She took an amazing wagon voyage and had a little dog named Schatzi. She'd be a great source on dog travel.
Sea G Ryhdr (31:12)
Backing up with a wagon — how does that work?
Bernie Harberts (31:20)
First, set things up well in advance. Imagine you're looking down from above with a diagram of where the wagon is going to go when you're backing it.
Be very careful backing a wagon because if horses or mules have bad experiences with it, they can start freaking out — especially rearing. Make sure there's no friction under the wagon wheels so that when they step back, the wagon actually moves. That's a no-brainer but really important.
I didn't back a lot. I could push my 1,200-pound wagon around myself. The way I taught Polly was to get out of the wagon and position her left and right on the ground to get the tongue placed where I wanted it, then ask her to back up the same way I'd back her into a stall. I trained her on the ground first because I've seen too many people sit in the wagon, pull on the lines, and the horse has no idea it needs to go back — or it goes back and the wagon doesn't move. There's no quicker way to teach a horse to rear than that, because they have nowhere to escape. So I do it on the ground, always say step back, step back, and only ever start with two or three steps then stop. She turned into a really good backer.
Sea G Ryhdr (33:59)
I pull up to a hitching post and then I've got to get going again. I don't think I'll need to back up much, but some.
Bernie Harberts (34:15)
You'll want to have it. And this ties into backing — horses and mules that you drive need to get used to the britching, which goes over their back legs below the tail. The britching serves two functions. One — it helps push the wagon back. They don't push it back with the collar or breastplate. They push it back with the strap on their hindquarters. So they have to learn that it's back there and accept the feeling.
Two — going downhill. Instead of riding your brakes and letting the wagon push up against the horse — which causes them to move away from the pressure and trot down the hill — teach them through gradual acclimation to hold the wagon back with their hindquarters. Work on a little bit of hill, ease the brake off gradually so there's a little more pressure, and say steady, steady. You'll find your word. I've had brakes go out on a wagon and you need to be able to stop on a hill. That's a skill you want before you need it.
Sea G Ryhdr (36:37)
I'm sitting here realizing I haven't driven in 30 years. As a kid, I drove my pony to church. Then one winter in Wisconsin I was driving teams of Belgians for sleigh rides and training a two-and-a-half year old with her grandmother. I drove horse and buggy tourist rides through Baltimore. Drove a team for a wedding carriage job in Albany. But that was all 30 years ago and all of it was in controlled situations with established routes.
Bernie Harberts (37:37)
(Lauging) Ha, ha, ha. Well that's enough! Why are you even asking me questions?
Sea G Ryhdr (37:42)
Because all of that was 30 years ago. And in all of those situations, somebody had already set up the protocols. You knew the route, you knew where the post was, everything was routine. None of it had hills. This is different.
Bernie Harberts (38:13)
That's great training though.
Sea G Ryhdr (38:37)
Next question — diapers. Some of the places I worked had a net behind the horses to catch the manure.
Bernie Harberts (38:44)
I do not use diapers. My policy with manure — if you're going through a town and they drop on the street, if it's a super busy road I keep going because it's too dangerous to stop. If it's someone's nice street, I kick it up to the road. Going through Newfoundland I was crossing a big pedestrian bridge with the wagon and Polly took a dump and I pushed it to the side and kept going, figuring nobody's going to stand on it. Not 10 minutes after I got off the bridge someone chased me down. I went back and cleaned it up. But in thousands of miles that's the only time I've had a problem. Most of this is rural — in Nebraska nobody gives a crap if your horse drops on the road.
I do carry a small plastic bag if I'm going through a town. Every now and then I'll pick it up if I can't kick it into the grass. Handful of times in thousands of miles.
Sea G Ryhdr (41:56)
I was not a person who cleaned up after horses much. I figure it's fertilizer and cars give off much worse emissions.
Bernie Harberts (42:11)
Exactly. Most of this is rural. The exceptions are low single digit percentage. And besides — the manure from your ponies is going to be the size of a pile of M&Ms. How bad could it be?
Sea G Ryhdr (42:56)
I think that's all the questions in my brain. If there's other stuff I should know, feel free.
Bernie Harberts (43:00)
Send me an email. The two most important things — first, build that foundational bond so the trip is the four of you, not you and Thicke and them. And the other thing is — I really love the spirit of finding out what's out there with the country. That's a huge opportunity to immerse yourself in the depth of that experience. This is a great way to do it. And all the technical stuff — as you know from your long ride, you started with not a huge amount of experience. All kinds of stuff went wrong. But it worked out. Wagon's no different. It's going to be fine.
For more stories of long riders, sailors, ramblers, adventurers, and dreamers finding their way, visit TravelGrit.com.