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We take a bite out of queer animation, TV shows and characters with resident nerds Andy Newhouse and Michelle Walters. We discuss the finale of The Owl House, D20’s Dungeons and Drag Queens, and which other queer streaming moments we’d smash or pass.
Additional Resources & References
Listen to “The Anatomy of a Liberatory Think Tank”
Learn more about the Writers Guild of America (WGA) Strike
Streaming & TV Show Recommendations and References
The Last Airbender directed by M. Night Shyamalan
For questions, comments or feedback about this episode: lastbite@sgdinstitute.org
Host: R.B. Brooks, they/them, director of programs for the Midwest Institute for Sexuality and Gender Diversity
Cover art: Adrienne McCormick
Creators & Guests
What is Take the Last Bite?
Take the Last Bite is a direct counter to the Midwest Nice mentality— highlighting advocacy & activism by queer/trans communities in the Midwest region. Each episode unearths the often disregarded and unacknowledged contributions of queer & trans folks to social change through interviews, casual conversations and reflections on Midwest queer time, space, and place.
For questions, comments and feedback: lastbite@sgdinstitute.org
To support this podcast and the Institute, please visit sgdinstitute.org/giving
Host: R.B. Brooks, they/them, director of programs for the Midwest Institute for Sexuality & Gender Diversity
Cover Art: Adrienne McCormick
Hey hi hello y’all, this is R.B., your Midwestigative reporter, bringing you another episode of Take the Last Bite, a show where we knock on Midwest Nice’s cabin door and the four horsemen of the apocalypse try to convince it to sacrifice a family member in order to save the world.
On today’s episode, I’m joined by a few folks from the Midwest Institute for Sexuality & Gender Diversity volunteer staff to nerd out about the most memorable (and queer af) things we’ve watched lately. But before we delve into the fantastical land of drag queens playing DND or skin-stealing demons, I want to quickly revisit episode seven, The Anatomy of a Liberatory Think Tank, by extending that concept and thinking about: what is the anatomy of a safe space?
I know, I KNOW, the phrase “safe space” is a touchy one, and the evolution of this phrasing has been both re-envisioned by those who need it and co-opted by those who wish to antagonize us for desiring safe spaces. Can spaces be 100% safe for all people at all times? Certainly not. Can we set our sites on the safest ways to share and host space with all people in mind at all times? We sure can.
At the time of recording today’s episode and intro, myself and my five co-conspirators from the Institute are freshly back at our respective homes in Michigan, Illinois and Minnesota after an extended weekend at Campit Outdoor Resort, an LGBTQ+ centered campground in Saugatuck, Michigan. This is our third year getting together at Campit for a staff retreat to hang out and do a lil’ bit of business as we continue to build and scheme around our big ideas for the Institute and our signature program: MBLGTACC.
Being an LGBTQ+ centered space, as many of us know, is not the sole ingredient for a safe(r) space. It lays some foundation for what can be expected though and what we’ve found in our three years convening each summer is that– the more LGBTQ+ spaces lean into being queer spaces and not simply gay and lesbian spaces, it impacts the ways folks can move and express themselves in that environment. Ultimately, for the better.
It can look like shoving upwards of ten deep-fried oreos in your mouth on a tour-de-campsite because no one’s counting.
It can look like knowing if you get a lil’ stumbly after that last cider, that your friends will set you up with some water and make sure you get to a bed.
It can look like a county-fair themed drag show featuring a fortune-teller, a trapeze act on gravel, and a nearly nude hula-hooper burlesque act by a queer and disabled adult entertainer.
It can look like an in-depth conversation where multiple people who were raised by narcissistic maternal birth givers can unlock some of the nested trauma in our bodies and minds realizing the bizarre and heinous things we experienced as youth had nothing to do with us.
It can look like late-night clothing optional swims in a heated pool and a majestic container of nachos from the on-site food truck.
I promise this is not a sponsored ad for Campit Outdoor Resort, but this is a strong case for examining our spaces and asking in what ways folks feel freer, less scrutinized, more open, and less judged for doing what they want and being who they are. The goal is not perfection, it is possibilities.
Our team came out of our time together feeling renewed in our sense of purpose in our organizational aspirations. We also departed our weekend together having practiced what I believe are baseline components of a co-created safe space, such as:
Ensuring everyone’s basic needs are met (such as asking outright, ensuring there was a meal plan, caffeine and water was fully stocked, etc)
Having priority items we wanted to discuss but not being beholden to an itinerary or agenda (our time was flexible)
Giving ourselves permission to be the silliest of gooses
Practicing spatial and situational awareness to the levels our various neurodivergences would allow
Placing our pleasure, interests, desires, and wants on a similar level as our needs
Addressing and avoiding behaviors that don’t align with our personal needs or sense of personal safety
We cannot do the work of creating large-scale, social change without examining our micro, localized spaces and examining what it is that draws us to and keeps us in them and adapting those elements into other areas of our lives and movements. “Small is good, small is all. The large is a reflection of the small.”
Today’s chat is a big-ole nerdfest with two of the folks who made this weekend-long retreat possible. Andy, our director of tech, and Michelle, our director of operations, humored me when I sent a text saying “hey, remember that conversation ya’ll had at Campit about all the animation and TV shows ya’ll are raving about right now? Can we record it?” and here we are, fam. We chat about the wrap up of The Owl House, the hits and misses of Avatar: The Last Airbender, and we wrap up with a quick round of Smash or Pass: Streaming Edition.
Don’t hog the remote! On this episode… of Take the Last Bite.
[INTRO MUSIC PLAYING]
Why can't we be in space with hundreds of other queer and trans folks and having these necessary conversations?
When it comes to dynamics around privilege and oppression, and around identity. Well intentioned isn’t actually good enough.
How far is too far to drive for a drag show? I don’t know, we’re in Duluth right now, I would straight up go to Nebraska, probably,
If you are not vibing, or something’s not right, or also like there’s an irreparable rupture, you have absolutely every right to walk away.
Definitely going to talk about Midwest Nice and if that's as real as it wants to think it is.
Midwest nice is white aggression. That's what it is.
[END MUSIC]
All right, fam. So Once Upon a time, Andy and I did a small bite segment in December of 2021. So quite a while ago slash pretty early in the lifespan. Of take the last. Bite and we talked about queer animation. For a small bite segment and just. This past weekend, we hung. Out all together in person, as we do once a summer. And I I realized that we had gone far too long without revisiting the animation conversation, and that Michelle would be an incredible add on to this nerd fest that is talking about some of the biggest memorable moments in queer animation and queer television and queer streaming.
So that is why.
We're here to basically rehash and talk about what has transpired since that segment, which I encourage folks to check out that small. That episode from December 2021.
Let's start with introductions.
Who are y'all? What are you up to? And let's just kind of kick things right off with you. Starting us with one of the most memorable things you've watched or seen on the interwebs. In the past handful of months.
I'm Andy. I use they them pronouns. Though mostly most interesting thing I've watched in the last few months would definitely have to be Owl house. That wrapping up was fantastic and is probably one of my favorite. Animation TV shows of all time up there with Avatar The Last Airbender.
I'm Michelle. I use she and they pronouns. And oh big plus one to our house and to avatar the Last airbender. Excellent choices. And then I'd say something. I have been watching that I'd be excited to tuck into today is dimension 20s dungeons and drag Queens not animated, but very nerdy. And very gay.
I am mostly here for emotional support for this conversation because I have seen next to none of all of these things, though I regularly get. Get nudged and encouraged and low key, harassed by these two to watch these things. But I I just. It's. I don't know. I don't watch the same TV as you two do, and that's why we're here. So we could pick at any of these little tendrils you'd like. I have seen at least a clip of the dungeons and Drag Queen. I'm familiar with that. I've seen probably the first season of our house, so I'm like. Loosely aware of those two so we could start there and then I know there's some other ones that we could talk about just as far as cool things you've watched, or I'm also interested in getting into some of the like behind the scenes just kind of like drama slash emergence of some things that have gone on and like query animation land. On the back end. And see where that takes us. So whoever wants to start just to give your big, gushing nerdy spout of either outhouse or dungeons and drag Queens, we. Can start there.
OK, so our house just wrapped up, I mean, not just it was last spring. It feels like, but season three came out. The first episode was a Halloween episode, so like, come on, how queer is a Halloween episode one of the last like finale extended episodes. Then there was one in early January and then another one in March, and it was all very good, all very cute. We have our first. On screen, TV Girl on Girl Kiss in like Disney Animation Land. And despite. The production issues and Disney saying no, we don't think this content is what our audience wants despite it being exactly what their audience wants. We're going to make it not a full third season, just three episodes. But despite all of those hardships, Dana Terrace and. The team did a phenomenal job wrapping up all of the stories, doing justice to the characters and wrapping up what I believe to be a new classic in Disney Animation TV.
I agree. I was, like, really surprised. Well, one, it is absolutely gonna be a classic. It's great. But I was very surprised that it was on Disney given some of the, you know, things that Disney has done in the past, you know. Thinking about like. For example, like all of the buyer, Asia and all the Marvel. Productions, for example, and keeping that very limited for their audiences, so really pleasantly surprised that this was Disney content.
I think it was also interesting that Disney says Disney Channel is for 6:00 to 11:00 and but most of the kids that are on Disney shows are like. 8th grade or high school? Like Hannah, Montana was in high school, all of Hannah Montana, like Sweet Life of Zack and Cody, I feel like they're in late junior high, early high school. So all of the characters are high school level kids. You've got High School Musical too and. All that junk, but yet this show where the protagonist is. 1314. Freshman in high school. Is queer is now suddenly it's it's too much. It's too mature. It's not for the kids anymore. And it's, I mean, not anything new. Clearness in general is has been adultish. It's not for children, even though it's just love. And sharing love. And come on, let kids be kids and enjoy, you know, holding hands with another cute human for the first time.
Yeah, I would say the only reason not for little kids to watch it is it's just a little scary sometimes for kids, but the, you know, it's wholesome, like the relationships are so wholesome and like supportive. The message is so wholesome, so just like some of the action sequences, maybe I'd stick to the 11 year old range instead of the six, you know.
And then my like, push back on that is you also have gravity falls, which is incredibly spooky and kind of weird and creepy. In the pilot episode, nobody says give me your skin as they do in Owl house, but it's a cute little fairy saying it. So who? Who the? Cares, but like you can't look at all of Disney's stuff and not say there isn't other spooky stuff like Halloween town isn't really spooky in any way, shape or form, but. If you don't like spooky stuff, there is a ton of Disney content that is spooky in some. Way shape or form?
Oh, for sure, I just have specific trauma about the brave little toaster.
I gotta warn. I gotta.
Warn the folks about these. Scary curtains.
I'm sorry.
They're these terrifying not.
I love that movie. I am the blanket anyway.
Ohh, they're all getting like chopped up in a machine parts thing.
OK, but have you seen Toy Story 3? It's the literally the same.
Quite a lot.
Plot line.
I cried a lot. During Toy Story 3.
I think Disney is infamous for is trauma.
And if one didn't do well.
So like really the spooky **** is nothing compared to Hello, Bambi. We've been they, they have mastered the art of like, subtle trauma with no content.
Mornings, I also think the last time I was on I I don't think Luca or turning red were out yet. Or strange world.
Oh well, no, I don't think so.
Which are all Luca and turning around are both Pixar movies and Strange World is a Disney animation feature like film, which again stars a high school age. But of course, that movie got terrible reviews because a the kid is black. And queer and has a crush on a boy. And so that movie got terrible reviews because it's a Disney movie about an adult. And I'm like, it's still a 16 year old kid. You just think he's an adult. Because he's black.
I still haven't seen that one, and I I remember talking to you, though, before it was actually released, talking about how like little promotion that one was getting compared to other like signature pick star Pixar movies, right, like did not get the same airtime, did not get a lot of real estate in like. All the places you would expect to see it was a very quiet promotion and I think that was by, I would assume that is somewhat by design.
I do think Pixar has gotten the raw end of the deal lately with promotion of their films, but Strange World isn't a Pixar movie. It's a Disney movie, but that's semantics. But regardless, as a Disney movie, it did not get nearly as much airtime. Or commercial representation as. The Little Mermaid did, and The Little Mermaid is an excellent movie, and it's really cute, but I think there's this troubling trend where big corporations. Won't take chances on new. Content and would rather stick with the marbles or doing a remake of Little Mermaid or a remake of a remake. I heard they were going to do an animated remake of a live action remake of a animated show.
That hurt my brain.
I think that was.
I don't like that.
I know I don't know if that's actually real or not, or just Twitter ramblings, but like that's the direction that it's inevitably going to be, where it's we're just going to do remakes because we know Lion King is popular.
This is.
We know Little Mermaid is popular. So rather than. Take a chance on generational trauma. Which they have done multiple times in the last year. Or two, but it's.
Talk about in Kanto. I can't get through the conversation.
Yeah, it was a very, very good movie. Not queer. Well, I feel like.
Maybe a little Lakota.
But it's it's yeah, it's queer coded characters because that's what most animators at Disney can get away with. Where like Luca, the animators came out, or the showrunner or not showrunners, cause it's a movie, but whatever that term is, they they came out and they're like, yeah, we wanted one of these characters to have a girlfriend. And because we saw this character as. Queer, but then also realized that the girlfriend didn't actually add anything to the story that we were trying to tell. So we removed that character, but also the main characters in Luca. Luca and Alberto are totally crushing on each other the whole time, and it's so adorable and sweet. And any queer person. Going to the movies to see that film, even though it was released onto Steam plus. Sees that. As a budding childhood crush. But straights are like, oh, they're. Just friends. They were. We've also watched a little bit of Vox Machina, which is a D20 or a dragon. Dungeons and Dragons show, yeah.
Roommates. Thank you. Yes.
Show that once off of.
And I know there's complexities in that whole realm. But tell us about the drag dungeons and Dragons show.
So you can tell that Andy maybe does not watch these.
I watch Fox mocking 'cause. It's animated, but I'm not a big drag show human, but. If you make a compelling argument.
I was quick to correct you because the nerds on the Internet are mean. If you save you some tweets later.
Exits if you.
I think that's what we're calling. That, I think, stop.
Stop it.
So yes, Vox machina it so my my spouse loves vox machina. Because he's a really, really big. Critical role fan, which is. This is very good, but I will say I I'm an ADHD dear too much, 6 hour episodes, they're very well they. They have funny stuff, but they're very serious, a lot of. The time too. I like dimension 20 as a program is a different. Streaming Dungeons and Dragons show because they are all previous college humor cast members, so they're all professional. Improper is comedy improper is, whereas critical role is all professional voice actor. Which is probably something you would really enjoy about it, Andy, because there are a lot of cartoon folks in there, but so dimension.
And a lot of them voiced the characters in the animated show.
Yes, exactly. They played their own characters. They like took their. Live role play and then animated it. So that's pretty cool. So dimension 20 released a mini series, so each season is like a different dungeons and Dragons campaign, so they'll be different cast, different story. So they released a four series. Work or full episode ark called Dungeons and Drag Queens Game Master is Brennan Lee Mulligan, who is consistently in a lot of these and is like kind of the mainstay person. And then it's got Bob the drag queen Monet exchange, Jujubee and Alaska as players. And they have, like varying experience amongst them, but all of them, we know from watching the show from Drag race is are excellent, improper themselves. So it's just been really, really cool to see. And I what I really like is. How inclusive the programming is on dimension 20 like this isn't their first time. Like oh, we needed to do something for Pride Month. Let's get some. Of those ru. Paul, girls like. That's not what happened. The main cast on Dimension 20. Has a lot of queer. Folks, they are one of the. Main D&D spaces to really make sure they're including diverse racial perspectives, like they have black dungeon masters. They you know that are amazing and you just don't see that in a lot. Of nerd spaces. There's a lot of gatekeeping that happens in the community, so I just love it. There's not binary folks that are consistently. On there, so really appreciative of what they do.
That sounds cool. I've been listening to the trans Planner RPG, and that's cute, and I, but I the episodes do get a little long and I am like, OK. Can we? Wrap it up and even those are like cut up from their YouTube stream and I'm like this. I enjoy all these characters. I enjoy what's happening here and I would like to be able to wrap up in the amount of time it takes me to do the dishes and around the house cleaning. It shouldn't take me 3 days to get through. This or I would. Prefer it to not take me 3 days to get through it. I should say rather than I shouldn't. Because some people really like that and it's just not. Because also ADHD.
Absolutely, yeah, dimension 20 is only like 2 hours an episode instead. Of four two hours.
It's really long when.
I know, I know. It's so long.
I use. I'm so used to like 30 minute kids shows where like we've been watching. I just rewatched avatar, the last air. Under and then I'm now rewatching the Legend of Korra and. Which is such a different vibe from the original avatar, The Last Airbender. And then I also recently read the Kyoshi books. Which turns out Avatar Kiyoshi is queer and has a fire Nation girlfriend that she's crushed on her entire. Life, which is also hilarious, and the parents are actually pretty good about it. So which is adorable. But there's so much new avatar content coming out or will be coming out from either Nickelodeon or Netflix that I'm. Excited to see if they actually do queer. Stuff on TV instead of just teasing it like they did for Legend of Korra in the last 30 seconds of the entire show.
Yes, that was.
I'm also.
A shock to.
Me because everybody was like you need to watch Legend of Korra. It's so queer. It's so queer. It's so queer. And then I. Watched it and I'm like y'all the last seconds we're.
I was going.
To say I didn't even. Watch it, but isn't it?
Just a.
Little blip at the end, yeah.
Yes, it's they like. Are about to kiss or they barely kiss. And it's some folks are like, oh, they're just friends and it's like, can y'all just be nice and let us have this one?
No, sorry, not allowed.
My sister keeps telling me to watch heart stopper.
I've seen and. Heard a lot of things about that one, but have not engaged either.
I have watched one episode. And I was like. Nope, Nope Nope. I can understand why this is an enjoyable show for folks, and also I do not need to relive coming out in high school.
It's all based off of a graphic novel series too.
I believe so.
Thank you, Sir.
That sounds right, but it was cringey in the way that high school. Like dramas are cringey. And apparently the second season is a lot more like heartwarming, and does a lot of promotion for queer fiction books. There's like a whole like playlist, I guess or. List of all of these, like 10-15 different books that are promoted in the show that are from queer authors and are queer stories, which is very cute. There's also like trans representation in the show, which feels or felt to me only watching the first episode to be. Ohh this is just the box we're ticking. Rather than a real trans character. I don't know. I guess Owl house spoiled me where the trans character was trans and was just trans, and it wasn't the plot. The the trans character had their own plot and not just like the fact that they were trans, was their character story arc.
Yeah, all over that.
I'm a little. Or I. I'm over the like, the character being queer is their entire purpose for existing as a character and it feel like heart stopper felt to me like the whole reason for the story was coming out. And it felt a lot like love. And I was like. Love Simon was a enjoyable 90 minute movie. I do not want to watch 10 episodes of this, which is also why I never watched love Victor.
Also about love, Simon, the. The time I watched it, I was on an international flight, so plane full of people. It's like one of those ones where it has like, the big long row row in the middle of the plane.
OK.
And I'm just watching love Simon with my friend who's sitting next to me, who's also watching it relatively the same part. And we both look over each other and are just sobbing on this sobbing on an airplane.
Ohh no.
And like we are unhinged.
It is really interesting. To me, where some folks will watch a movie. And think or a TV show and be like I really didn't enjoy this clear content because it was a little too. Close to home for me. But then other folks will watch the same content and be like ohh yay representation. And I'm like yes and I we watched the, I mean this was years ago. I don't remember when it came out or if we talked about it the last time, but happiest season with Kristen Stewart. And she was totally supposed to end up with Aubrey Plaza, not the ****** girlfriend who wants to keep her in the closet the whole time she brings her home, but they end up together.
OK.
And I'm like, what kind of message is that? Telling folks that like you should end up in the ****** relationship and stay with the person who's like? Actively harming you.
Like what kind of you had this for a couple of years?
Messages sent.
Yeah, the holiday movie. That's true. That's true.
I will never let that one go because it keeps coming up in, like, oh, on, like TikTok or Instagram of like, ohh, these are sapphic movies you should watch and like, no, this one's trash.
To your point. I really prefer shows and stories where their queerness is just there and it's not. There's like, big plot point or like their their main story arc. Like our flag means that's a really good example of that. Like Vico, Ortiz's character coming out as non binary and everybody's like, oh, OK and like, moving on like love that. And I think that's one of the things to bring it back to dungeons and. Dragons. One of the things that I think queer folks really like about D&D because we did get three separate proposals for Dungeons and Dragons. Workshops at amble Tech this year. So we're folks like it for sure is you are making up the story. And so there doesn't have to be homophobia or transphobia in this world. They your character could be whatever you want your character to be. And to venture off of movies and shows for a second, boulders Gate 3 is a video game coming. It's out on computer now for PC gamers, but it's coming out on, like PlayStation a couple weeks. Here is the Dungeons and Dragons based video game. It is sexually explicit. I'll put that the note in there, but. You can literally customize every piece of your characters. Body, including genitalia. UM and there are many options and you can combine and do whatever you want to do, and your character could be just exactly like you.
Oh, I saw that.
I've seen it's got really good. It's got good hair options for folks like, it's like really customizable and inclusive.
So I'm looking.
Like good textured options.
Yes, exactly. Yeah, I guess my rambling point though is, yeah, fantasy, whether it's fan fiction or dungeons and Dragons or whatever you want to do. Is a safe space. For queer trans folks to play around with their gender and their identity.
Did y'all watch Wednesday?
Yes, loved.
I love how even the cast of that show it's like Wednesday and Enid, our end game, even though nobody like the writers haven't even written the second season yet because they can't. And rightfully they should not be writing it because of the strike, but I think it's interesting that even the male characters, like everybody on that show is like, yes, in Enid and Wednesday makes so much sense.
I think what's interesting is that when I think about Wednesday Adams as a character, yes, there is this secondary like key character. That we could ship and also there's some ace coating to Wednesday that. I just feel like is not allowed to happen because of just a litany of ace erasure. So like, I would be curious if they kind of like force feed a ship moment into that or if they kind of let that be a thing where Wednesday is just this independent self self-sufficient? You know, like that if the fandom steered it in that direction, if the writers, once they are, you know, back in action. Would give concessions to that being a possibility, and I think too this is worth also naming like. The writers strike where there's this it's been like over 100 days now of writers striking because of improper working conditions and payments specifically for the folks who write the content for a majority of the. Shows if not all the shows that we're talking about are not getting their dues and a variety of other types of roles, but I think it's been. Colloquially referred to as a rider strike, because that's the the crux of kind of who's demanding certain conditions and just how much I think that. What is maybe less spoken as there's been this kind of generalization of? What is this right or strike about? What are the generalist demands? What are the expectations for the general public to not inadvertently cross this?
Pick it. Pick it one.
Line is like part and parcel. I think of the conditions that are being talked about are the limitations on folks to write representative. Aries and how those are valued. So I think those are like intricately tied conversations that there's reasons we gravitate towards these shows and what is also common amongst especially with our House for example, right. I remember us being hanging out this past weekend in person and you naming that like you, Andy, you generally believe that Disney. Has come to the conclusion that they know they ****** **, but maybe wouldn't ultimately announce that, but that at this point to reverse what has been a really bumpy ride for our houses, three seasons to show up on a streaming platform like Disney plus with its. Family wholesome image, but a little.
Which they've probably backpedaled.
That it would be too late, right? But it, yeah, it ultimately it would be too late to kind of claim it as it's it's claim to fame. It did.
Yeah, I think.
Disney didn't do that. It just kind of like.
I mean, you can watch.
Who mitigate as long. As they could.
You can watch our house on Disney plus, but I don't. I don't see them. At least not for another 15 years. Doing a reboot or. A an extended anything? Partially because the creator is left. Granted, it's not her intellectual property, it's Disney's intellectual property. But I also have a feeling that the OWL House fandom won't. Sign on to anything that Dana isn't a part of. Just because, like, yeah, it's not technically her IP anymore, but like it is still her baby.
Right.
But I think like Disney is seeing the economics. Of how much money people are spending on Etsy or on like fan fan shops to buy Owl House merch, or how popular Owl House related things are at. Like conventions and be like oh. Maybe this was actually popular.
I think it'll be. Similar to Avatar The Last airbender. Where later they'll be like, oh ****. People really like this and it's got. Like a cult foul.
I mean, if you like, we can go back to Avatar or like Korra. Nickelodeon gave Korra one season. And then they were like, oh, this is actually doing OK here. Have another two season. And then, OK, the writers, you know, wrapped up season one, then they had an arc for 2:00 and 3:00, and then they were. Like ohh yeah, yeah. You get another. And it's just like. Here you get another you get another, but it doesn't allow for a cohesive storytelling process, so Legend of Korra ends up feeling incredibly disjointed. For season 1-2 and three and then four. So when Avatar like came back on Netflix and then it was super popular and Netflix bought the rights. And then Nickelodeon was like, ohh, shoot, we effed up and whatever happened between Netflix and the creators of Avatar happened, and now they're back at Nickelodeon, making their own content again. It's very interesting that we will have like 2 paths of new avatar content, and I'm also very curious to see if folks latch on to the Netflix live action or kind of are like ohh well, the creators aren't involved anymore, so we don't. Really care and it might end up like. I think there is this low key worry that the Netflix stuff is going to end up like the M Night Shyamalan one, which is arby is looking confused.
He doesn't know.
There is a live action avatar, The Last Airbender, not the blue people from Disney like there is a live. Action advertising.
And emerged one did it.
And it's that sounds.
Like, it sounds like a fever dream. I don't need to be a part of.
The only Asian casting is like for Ang and Zuko and Pyro, but like Katara and Saka are both white. Did you see Twilight the Jasper from Twilight? Soccer it's.
OK.
Alright, the script was terrible. The effects were terrible. It is just it. I I I sat down ash, my spouse, to watch it and they after 10 minutes were like never again. I'm done. I cannot do this. For an hour and a half. It was so bad and I remember sitting in the theater just fuming because it was so bad and I was so excited for it when it came out in Ohh.
I have to look it up now. I think at that point that I think is worth emphasizing that you mentioned kind of been talking about like how? Things with. Avatar kind of branched off into other. Places or how I like. Our house kind of like stumbled, blocked through like will there be another season or not? Is just how? What is the propensity of like shows with any form of quote UN quote representation and how much their storyboard can get interrupted by this lingering looming question of like will there be another season? And I think I think when I. Think about that. I think about how pose kind of made. A swift and relatively smart like exit after a certain number of seasons and didn't draw it out so that it didn't get commandeered or Co opted by like Ryan Murphy is at a place where because of his social like and financial capital and his positionality as a like white gay man in this industry like him and Dustin. Dance black and other like white gay male creators and like directors kind of get to play in ways that multiply marginalized queer and trans folks. Don't get to. In fact, I've gotten into an argument with Dustin Lance Black on the Internet many a year ago about this exact problem. I'll pull those receipts out later, but like, you know, they get to experiment in ways that, like other creators, don't. But I think about like even in the in that case where like Ryan Murphy had this project that is posed the decision to limit it to a certain number of seasons and kind of tie up those storylines so that they serve the purpose they needed to serve. And didn't potentially encounter like always could have turned into Glee in a certain way, like if they just kind of kept going. Like, what else could you do with those characters? Versus here's a snapshot of these particular characters as lives, and we're going to drop in.
Right.
We're going to play this out. I think it was 3 total seasons, which isn't really a lot and I feel like I've also seen, especially in relation to this writers strike the conversation around a TV like a season of streaming television does not look like what it used to. For example, I am rewatching. House and 22 episodes in a season is unfounded. Nowadays you'll be lucky to get 5 or 6 episodes, and then you'll have to wait an entire calendar year to get the next. And that's really stressful in a time of like wanting this representation, but only getting it in smaller batches. We don't get the Grey's Anatomy queer coated, you know, giant Saga series is anymore, and that might not be the nature of television anymore, but how do we get a satisfactory consistent? Amount of content that doesn't have to be scrutinized that doesn't have to play this waiting game to continue on to the next season. That's green lit and an appropriate amount of time that has spin offs that has all these things like I don't really. Feel like there's a queer? Empire if?
You will now that. We need an.
Empire, because that's really counter counter to justice work. But like there's not like a hub of. All of this representative content, right? It's kind of patch work. It's here. There, it's everywhere. There's a character that will pop up in a generally mainstream popular piece of media, and then folks kind of want to rely on that and cling to that. It doesn't go very far or. It's a, you know, minimally recurring character. Or just still perpetuate a place. Of desire and want and always coming up short on what that content is. For so many reasons, and I think that's really frustrating even in not even. But like, especially in this realm of animation being quote UN quote perceived. As like a kids domain but us knowing damn well that that's not true and I feel like there's one one piece of animation that I can loosely speak to that I know is on Michele's list of like adult animation and Harley Quinn the show. It's on Max, right? Did I make that up? It's on Max. HBO for, you know. The death name that is now HBO. Everybody's changing their **** that very much. Reminds me of like Archer level comedy in the way that like it kind of creates a. A culture around the language of that show. I would literally have to go back and tell you what even transpired in most of those episodes, but it's great and is adult comedy and probably to be better communicated as such because I just saw it on the homepage and I was like that. I thought it was kind of a like reboot or not spin off to like the. You know, it was probably like 80s or 90s era Batman show that was animated that like was still, it was probably on like Saturday or Sunday morning cartoon somewhere in there. But like, there was definitely some more adult humor, but it was more coded. This is just straight adult rated R humor and it doesn't really communicate that on the home page. And my little 9 year old niece who's obsessed with Harley Quinn. I'm real glad she didn't have the remote the day we discovered, because that would not be for her and. It's beautiful and amazing and it's so ******* funny. But also just kind of like got posted in secret there was no I have not seen in kind of like a social media boom around like let's you know, I mean fanfic did it first the fandom did it first. We've been shipping Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy for decades. So why was this such a whisper of a thing that I just happened to find on accident on my streaming server?
I will say the DC animated stuff is really good. In general, the DC movies are. Not a. The new flash. Ohh boy, what bye not watching.
Even though it's got Ezra Miller in it.
Specifically because it has Miller in it. Yeah, watching. But they're animated. Stuff is great. Like really complex characters and relationships. I don't know. I'm not. Ready to call it query yet? But then there's a new Superman, one that just started. It's like in its first season. It's pretty good animation, a good animated show so far.
I like in the DC realm you got also marble and there is a new Disney TV animation that just finished its first. And that is Marvel. It's moon girl and Devil Dinosaur and Oh my God, it is so cute it is not. It's not explicitly queer yet, but it is explicitly black and I love it. It's so cute. It's so great to see a multi generational. Family and like not having a parent isn't a part of the storyline and. I guess there is Noah's best friend Casey. Her parents are two males, so like there are queer characters. But it was. Very cute and. The soundtrack was great, the animation was great. It wasn't kind, it was. It's got a similar animation style to into the spider verse or the spider verse kind of series series, but dulled down for a TV show like you can't have that level of animation for a 30 minute kids show. UM. But it's still really cute and really good, and the music slaps and. If y'all haven't watched that, you should. And yeah, I don't usually love superhero stuff, but into the spider verse. Black Panther watching Black Panther with you all years and years and years ago and then.
So many years ago now.
And then, yeah, now uh, moon girl and devil dinosaur like having a little smart girl who makes inventions and accidentally teleports AT Rex from dinosaur ages to now. And he's just this giant Clifford like T Rex. I mean, that's right up your alley, RP.
Yes it is.
As you have a Jurassic Park hat on, maybe wearing Jurassic Park stuff for like the next couple of days until I go to Jurassic Park and concert, that's what. I've decided I have an outfit for each day. That's probably not true, but we'll see. I I anticipate we could continue. I I still maintain that there should be a spinoff of Andy's Animation Corner podcast to allow Andy to talk about all of the nerdy fit that they watch. On a regular basis. Featuring Michelle at this point, but in the interest of time because. Do I have? Do I have an educated guess? Michelle, are you having people over 40 this evening or is that not your your Wednesday night planned?
So that actually is usually my Wednesday night plan. However, however, this is just regular dinner with friends.
Regular dinner. No dice, no dice, just dinner.
And we could feel some dice around if we want to, but it's not part of the.
This is true. That's be. That'd be funny. I guess my my wonder if if this is the prime way to wrap up in the next couple of minutes is just doing like a. Essentially, a round of smash or pass with you know things that we've we've mentioned, a couple of them, but if there's something that you want to like, strongly encourage folks go check out of any any timeline newer or older. So something that is smash worthy in your opinion and maybe something that's pass worthy in your opinion or just you for your purposes. You wouldn't recommend or you just weren't as into. Just to wrap. This up I can start while you two think because I watch much less and nothing I have is animated, but I would actually recommend knock at the cabin which is at night Shyamalan. I am oddly and intricately interested in apocalyptic content. Whichever season of American Horror Story. Is where I think it was coming. I know it was whatever it was. After covering cause I skipped covin. I think it wow this was so simple. It's American Horror. Story apocalypse. If I would just use my brain. I love apocalyptic **** in a weird, cryptic way like it just. Anyway, that's a different story for a different episode, so knock at the. Cabin woods. They're at knock at the cabin. I keep wanting to superimpose cabin at the cabin in the woods, which is a completely different movie.
But also.
Nash cabin in the woods.
Not at the cabin.
Does have a gay couple with an adopted child, and they are the main characters of this show. Rupert Grint is also in it, which was interesting. He is not in it for very long, but he's he's in it and that was and that someone who I understand is not necessarily a crowd saver for the purposes of. Brutalizing avatar The Last airbender, but in this case it was. It was. A pretty interesting. So I would recommend that one and I had one that would be in the past category I think, but now I can't remember. So folks have another one they want to go with right now, go for it.
So Smash Moon girl and devil dinosaur? Definite smash. I'm still having a ohh. We just finished the latest season of Dragon prints on Netflix. And I really enjoyed the first couple of seasons, but the past two have just been passes and I thought we were done. And now there's another season that we have to wait for and watch. And I'm just like, I don't even know if I'm going to be interested in it. Like it has to come out because it has to end and it has to wrap up all of these tendrils that they keep. Drawing out, but I was really expecting season five to be the last one. And so yeah, that's a pass.
I'm going to say Smash, I'm going to say, Steven Universe, we didn't get to talk about it today, and Andy hasn't watched all of it yet. I think you've watched bits and pieces you. Making a face, it's so. Watch it. It's so queer. It's so good.
I cannot get over the belly button, I just cannot.
I just it's.
It's like a trolled all level situation. It's just a gem. Just think of it as a navel piercing. It's just a gem.
I can't stand those.
In the bathroom.
Ohh, we're going to fight.
They make me sick like I feel.
Alright, have had nasal piercings.
Like I'm gonna.
No, I have one. How dare you? They'll say pass on the Flash. So I was so vehement about that. Earlier past.
That's fair. I think this is too late to matter, because if folks were going to watch it, they've watched it. And if they weren't going to watch it, they haven't. But I think that ultimately, I would encourage folks to pass on the ultimatum queer love because. It's too much. There's other ways for us to have trashy reality TV, and that one was just trashier than trash. And there's a lot survivor.
Survivor this past season had six queer cast members. One of them won, and it was actually, like pretty cute and like a good amount of queer drama. That didn't feel like the ultimatum gotcha.
Yeah, I was traveling when it made its, you know, debut on Netflix. And my partner had already binge, like almost all of it. So by the time I came home, he was on like the last one or two episodes. And I so I only got like the tail end of everything I was like.
What is happening?
Here and everything I've seen on TikTok since then from a handful of the folks on that show just kind of like, solidifies my opinions that like, no, just pass, just no.
I'm going to offer you.
A counterpoint for folks that like trash. Because I ******* love trash is because I watched. I watched the original season of the ultimatum and I watched queer like the queer season of Ultimatum and the difference between straight folks and queer folks like it was so much better TV because even when they. Were dead wrong. That queer folks could actually fully articulate their emotions and what they were trying, like, what's going on for them. And a lot of the time, couples on the straight season are just like, I'm mad and like.
I think that if they're going to do another queer love version of that Chrono from Queer Eye needs to be the host and needs to be placed throughout the experience, because there's some folks who are dysregulated.
So yeah, the whole.
That probably could have done without having their **** put on display on public television, and maybe that's nice thing with it, right? Like because it originated as a chauffeur, SIS head couples and that got, like, reoriented and shoehorning queer folks in it just.
Like it showed it showed.
Anyway, well, you know.
Yes, that's it's been off episode to. Talk about reality shows I will be. There, let's go.
Friends, this has been pleasant I.
Feel like I might be slightly more motivated to watch some things. I'm for sure gonna go rewatch Harley Quinn because I feel like I've been at it and need to revisit it to get all the quote worthy morsels that are in there. But is there any other items that we didn't talk about that are maybe upcoming haven't been released yet that you want to do a quick nod to? And do you want to offer any final thoughts before I click this record button off for tonight?
No good. I mean moon girl, Devil Dinosaur Season 2 will be out in some point soon and the new Pixar movie wish comes out in the.
Harley Quinn's or the newest season is airing now, so actively new episodes getting posted there. I only briefly mentioned our flags means death, but everybody please continue to bother Max until they release Season 2. It is fully filmed. It is done. We have no release date. Let us have it.
That's ridiculous and ********. I don't understand. No, I do. But that's a whole nother podcast about.
Please keep ready.
Let us have the gay pirates back.
Ohh man. OK. OK.
Bend it like Beckham.
So and also the World Cup and World Cup 2.
That was a. I went to bend it like Beckham. It was cool, yes. All right. Well, this has been an unhinged mess. Exactly as I expected, but this is the conversation that needed to happen, and it will not be another. Year and a half, almost two years until. We do this again, Andy, I promise. Ta da.
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R.B.
Our inbox is open for all of your insight, feedback, questions, boycotts, memes and other forms of written correspondence. You can contact us at lastbite@sgdinstitute.org. This podcast is made possible by the labor and commitment of the Midwest Institute for Sexuality and Gender Diversity staff. Particular shout out to Justin, Andy and Nick for all of your support with editing, promotion and production. Our amazing and queer as fuck cover art was designed by Adrienne McCormick.
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