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Are you a new parent or parent of twins and multiples? Do you want to thrive, rather than just survive?
Welcome to our show - a modern, step, by step guide to get you best set up for thrivival!
No outdated, frumpy or stuffy content - we're for NEW parents, we are new parents and we have found the best of the best experts, research and stories. If you're time poor - look no further - community and support building, efficiency hacks and tools, pregnancy, symptom management, partner support, body, bust, skin, hair, postpartum recovery, PND, logistics and travel, parenting twin psychology, childcare need-to-knows, returning to work and more!
I'm Emily, a twin and twin mum. I have researched extensively the best tips, efficiency hacks, expert advice. Books, white papers, medical papers, online groups, articles - sifted through it all, for you. I hope this podcast helps you best navigate this exciting time.
If you have guest recommendations or ideas, feedback - please DM my on socials or email hello@dwoh.group
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Podcast: Hey There Thivival
Hi, welcome to the Hey
There Thrivival podcast.
I'm your host Emily Haigh.
And in this podcast we talk all
things parenthood and multiples.
today our guest is none other than
an expert on all things relationships
mental health in pregnancy
delivery, postpartum and onwards.
So really excited to have
you hear from them today.
It is a CEO of the Perinatal Anxiety and
Depression Association of Australia who
helps families navigate through this time.
Julie Borninkhof.
Now.
Don't forget if you are
enjoying our episodes.
Hit that subscribe button and we'd
absolutely love it if you could give us a
review So the algorithm sends our episodes
to more parents just like you, to help
them thrive rather than just survive.
Okay, let's jump in.
Emily: Julie, welcome to the,
Hey There Thrivival podcast.
It is absolutely wonderful
to have you here today.
Could you give us an introduction
as to who you are and what you do?
Julie Borninkhof: Of course.
Thanks for having me, Emily.
my name is Julie Borninkhof
and I'm the CEO of Perinatal.
Anxiety in Depression.
Australia or PANDA we're
affectionately, called I'm a
Clinical Psychologist by trade.
and I'm fiercely passionate about leading,
not-for-profit organizations at the
support the community at sweet spots
where we can really impact their whole
ages and stages and full life history.
so PANDA is an amazing organization
to get to lead the organization is
the provider of our national helpline.
We've been around for more than 40 years.
We support mums, dads, and however
people identify in the parenting space.
We are there for them.
we prioritize, at-risk communities,
our first nations callers, rural and
remote parents, and we deliver the
country's national helpline and amazing
tools and resources via our website.
Emily: Fantastic.
Well, it's a very important organization,
so I'm looking forward to going through
more about that as we chat today.
Could you tell us a little bit about your
why and how you ended up landing at PANDA?
Julie Borninkhof: My personal why,
I guess, is I've always worked in
free services and, uh, as I said, I
I.
passionate about supporting people
who can't afford services elsewhere.
Uh, we know that there are so many gaps
in the mental health and broader health
system in this, uh, community and across
the country that it's really important
to ensure that we've got leaders who
are willing to leverage and innovate.
I'm a dyslexic individual who has two
visual art degrees, and I really love
the creativity of what we get to do
as an organization for our community.
ensuring that our information,
whether it's provided via
our helpline, is accessible.
and, it's our digital communications
on our website or our mental
health checklist, that it's
accessible to people language may
be not there first, as in their.
don't speak English at home.
or that they have visual impairment or
other impairments that get in the way.
So really passionate about ensuring
that services like PANDAs are
reaching the people who need the most.
and that we are committed to
working with our community to
build everything that we create.
Emily: Wonderful.
Really, interesting to hear a
little bit more about that and your
passion, I guess, for this area.
So, you've gone through, some of
the services there, but if you
would break down the, the main
categories, it sounds like, so
there's a call line, there's digital.
How would you categorize those if
to explain them to the audience?
Julie Borninkhof: Yeah,
look, that's a good question.
And we do think about it in sort
of swim lanes in the organization.
So, many of our community of who have,
or the community who have accessed our
supports have reached out to our helpline.
So that is our biggest
part of the business.
And there we have, clinical providers
and peer providers who use their lived
experience to be able to support people
via our national helpline or in states
and territories where they fund support,
to receive ongoing therapy, to receive
immediate help if somebody's reaching
out for the first time and to get a
read on what it is they're experiencing.
so our helpline is this beautiful
support that's there during the
hours that it operates, which is,
9:00 AM till 7:30 PM Monday to
Friday, and on weekends on Saturday.
and then we also have a complimentary arm.
So we know that for people
who are accessing support and
talking to somebody one-on-one.
often difficult when you go
away and you need to be able to
reinforce that information and
reflect on that information.
And we know for parents in the perinatal
period, it's even more difficult because
often you're jumping out of a call
and you've got barb in arms and you're
moving on to care, so we have these
beautiful range of, tools and resources.
our mental health checklist that
sits on our website and they're all
there as complimentary pieces that
can, be accessed after you've reached
out for support from the helpline.
or they can be somebody's first
port of call to getting help
or seeking help themselves.
So going online and having a
look and kind of finding your
own pathway through information.
So that's the second
stream of work that we do.
And then we are really
passionate about equipping and
advocating into the community.
So we have a large community following.
they are.
Amazing supporters of getting the message
out to the community, across the country,
and to all walks of life in this country,
to ensuring that people understand
what perinatal mental vulnerability
is and how to get supports with PANDA
or all of our partner organizations.
And we also do a range of education
and training both to the community
and to health professionals.
'cause we know that everyone
lives in a location regardless of
your socioeconomic background and
wrapping communities that care around
people in both friends and family.
And workplaces having awareness of
perinatal mental vulnerability, but also
clinicians and doctors and pharmacists,
knowing about this area of people's
journey is just so important to keeping,
you know, communities safe and well.
So that's the third
pillar of the work we do.
Emily: Got it.
Really good.
And if there is parents listening
today who are thinking about,
do they need this sort of help?
Maybe they're having some
mental health issues.
Maybe they're just interested,
interested,
they're in the midst of it.
the it's good to hear that there is a
phone line they can call the resources.
And did you say, so free
psychologists is essentially some
of the service, is that right?
Julie Borninkhof: Well, we have
psychologists, mental health workers
and people with lived experience
who are mental health certified at
delivering care on our helpline.
So we have both the, uh, initial call
that somebody will receive on the helpline
where they, explore what it is they're
dealing with, whether it's supporting
their loved one or their own experience.
And then we go on to provide ongoing
support for people who don't have
access to services in their community.
But yes, they're all mental health
practitioners of their own right.
Emily: Fantastic.
Well, look, that's really great
news because I think a lot of
parents, as you would know,
especially, our audience, which is
new parents, but also predominantly
is
those with twins, triplets,
multiples, maybe double
doubles, it's, a whole rainbow.
but they are time poor and that space
for personal space is sometimes hard.
So to hear that they can go and look
at resources online and there's a,
I think there's a, a checklist you
can go through and some dad specific
things as well, is really valuable and,
and is a great accessible, option for
people that are time poor and they can,
phase through, when they're able to,
to take the step or start the step and
then move forward and have access to,
professionals is really, really valuable.
I thought I'd summarize that
for our listeners because I just
wanna connect that piece between.
I just
What they might be looking
for and, and what's an offer.
What
for,
Julie, I guess one thing I wanted
to mention, so with this particular
audience of multiples (parents),
to
it is obviously a wonderful time in
that, you know, you've got your babies.
but through the multiples
experience, it's very common to
have issues through the pregnancy.
Not everybody, but just to highlight that.
Then you've got deliveries can be
more complicated because there's
a number of different, symptoms
that can happen, whether it be
with twins, triplets, et cetera.
and then you've also got the postpartum
period where the parents are navigating,
perhaps their first time being parents.
perhaps maybe there was some birth
trauma, and then some mental health.
So again, it doesn't necessarily
always get to the worst case
for everyone listening, but.
It's statistically because of the
complications, more, a high chance that
those with multiples can have this.
And that's the birth, uh, mother
as well as the parents as well.
'cause obviously, again, there's a, a
range of people parenting these children.
And so I guess are there any,
examples
that you've got where
you've had, a multiples parent come
through the call line and they've had
an issue, and what would be an example
of them working through that and the
kind of outcomes, they could hope for?
Julie Borninkhof: Yeah, look, most
definitely, I think, as you said,
there is so much in terms of the
facets of need that individuals
have, when they're parenting one
bub, let alone having multiples.
And we know that that just compounds
the pressure, but it also compounds
the logistics that parents are
going through at this time.
So, one of the things that we often say
with parents who have multiple bubs is
that they may reach out for support later
because they're trying to settle, they're
trying to get a handle of the routine.
They're trying to.
Juggle, not just metaphorically, they're
trying to juggle, landing with these
multiple bubs and how to make that work.
So, putting themselves first is often one
of the first things that we see that's
different in multiple, bub families.
So, we would always encourage
people just as a first instance
to reach out for support as soon
as you can and put yourself first.
'cause it helps with the logistics juggle.
so quite often callers are coming
to the call a little bit later.
They're, they've tried to find the
right time and we know that there's
never a right time for help seeking.
It's just as soon as you get
that sort of internal flag.
and then quite often the presentation for
parents who have multiple bubs is that.
They're, struggling with
the immediate stresses.
So the the logistics of feeding, of
settling of feeling that they're enough
for these two bubs and that they're
able to split almost that time between
that and that kind of, you know, how do
you even begin to do that questioning?
So quite often the presentation is about
the stresses and not necessarily the
symptoms of the mental vulnerability
that people are experiencing.
So it is really important and that's
where PANDA's care in providing
person-centered sort of assessment and,
exploration of what the individual's
experiencing is so important.
and the opportunity we then have to
normalize and validate one, that sort
of logistical juggle and the toll that
that can have on people because we know
that the media, the moment that people
feel, tired and overwhelmed and they're
not self-caring, but also in amongst
that they're not capturing evidence.
That sort of self-evidence
of that I'm doing this.
Okay.
We know that we need to kind
of focus in and normalize
and validate that experience.
And then once we've been able to do that
and remind people that they're not alone,
this is a really frequent incident of
people requiring support during this time.
And that doesn't make you faulty
and that doesn't make you a failure.
once we can normalize that experience,
then we can kind of get under the hood
of it and explore what that symptom,
you know, what the symptoms are for that
individual or what that experience looks
and feels like, and start to separate the
just physical exhaustion, and worn out,
you know, from the actual mental health
issues that we need to be addressing
and then putting in place strategies
and supports in local community.
So that pathway is the
same for any caller.
In that we identify risk self, you know,
to self and to bub in the family unit.
We are looking at what the individual
is bringing to the call and raising
as their concerns and the reason
they reached out for support.
But we're trying to explore beyond that
and get a feel for what's going on.
Because often, people present with
the thing that feels most easy to
talk about, but that's not always
the reason they're seeking support.
So, getting behind that and just walking
that journey is what we love to do.
Emily: That's really, a great
explanation in terms of how
someone might go through it.
Now you mentioned people are
coming later and I can see why.
I mean, any parent, but especially if
you're under additional extreme pressures,
which in this case, let's say multiples,
what, what is, what is the earliest stage?
because some people might be embarrassed
to, I guess, get support early.
So are people getting help early?
Are you okay to provide early help,
even if it's, for example, preemptive.
So say, you know that
you've got a history of.
Julie Borninkhof: for
Emily: Poor mental health or you
Julie Borninkhof: you
Emily: know, you're not gonna
have any family support.
And it's gonna be financial cost
because let's say some of our guests
have had three kids and they get
surprise twins or, so, talk to me
about, I guess, the earliest, stage and,
Julie Borninkhof: if
Emily: if you are okay, I guess,
to receive those sorts of, callers.
Julie Borninkhof: So, you know, as I
said, we provide person-centered care, so
the experience just has to be enough for
the individual reaching out for support
or a concerning enough for them to make
that call or do our checklist online
for us to be able to respond to that.
And, The earlier somebody seeks support
and puts themselves first, easier it
is for them to put in place strategies
and feel functional as a parent.
And the easier it is for us to provide
care to that individual because the kind
of the escalation of symptoms and the
escalation of that kind of impact to sense
of self has not reached a point where we
have to break down all of that to get to
that baseline of what it is somebody's
experiencing and addressing that.
and you mentioned too, and, and I
always talk about, you know, we come
to parenting with a backpack of crap.
You know, it's like everything we've
experienced through our life and our
self expectations about who we want
to be and what an ideal family looks
like, or what we don't wanna look like
because of past experience, and we can't
discount the impact that that has on
us coming into this parenting journey.
And from the moment you find out
you're pregnant, for most people,
they're starting to think about.
What they want to create,
who they wanna be.
And quite often that bar, especially for
people with anxiety and you know, who
want to have control over their world,
that bar is getting set higher and higher.
So if we can intervene and we can be
a part of the individual's toolkit or
help them reinforce their toolkit of
supports in the pregnancy period, then
we know we may not have to provide a
more targeted intervention when things
really do unravel for that individual or
if they do unravel for that individual.
So, we know how important it is and
we also support, up to 16% of our
callers have suicidal ideation or
at risk of suicide or self-harm.
And we know that that is often exacerbated
for individuals both by a history of
mental health issues, due to trauma
within their life experience or based
on their sense of failure and that
their family would be better off with
without them because they are not.
Achieving what it is they
want to be achieving.
So if we can get in earlier and disrupt
that kind of self-concept and the identity
that people are building based on this
feeling of failure, then we can get
families to a space where they feel much
more functional and have some really
positive evidence to reinforce that what
they're doing and how they're going.
Emily: Yeah, some really
good callouts there.
I think, again, I just want to
summarize the, the, the key point
that I guess we're mentioning there
is when is the time to attend?
And I think if people are listening and
you know, you've got some preexisting,
uh, personal trauma or, maybe you
are always a, a high achiever or
maybe
of flags which say that you may have
some challenges and some preliminary re
research onto the website or looking at
some of the strategies perhaps you've
got or speaking to someone about, "Hey,
how might I manage this moving forward?"
and so that kind of flagging.
And then Julie, you mentioned as
well, people having suicidal tions.
I know you also treat, patients that
have psychosis, which I have people that
I know that have, that have had that,
during their pregnancies postpartum.
And so I wanted to call that out as well.
So we've got that when
it's too early, you know.
How, how bad, or how complicated, let's
say that, uh, is treatment available?
So we're talking about
that whole spectrum.
So it could be during the pregnancy,
that
having a look, or perhaps you
are having an awful pregnancy.
I mean, I had an awful pregnancy.
an awful
It was also
mean,
beautiful, but I had Hyperemesis
Gravidarum and so there are other parents
that might have that or whatever the
complications, especially with multiples.
So knowing that there's a whole,
range of services available
and that timeline is not just
available on
when you're falling apart, I think
is a really good call out is, are the
majority of your callers, they're,
they're coming at that later stage.
any trends that you wanna mention there?
Julie Borninkhof: Absolutely.
So, Yeah, interestingly, before COVID we
had, the majority of callers would reach
out for support at the sort of four to
six months after the birth of their bubs.
So we knew that, the service
system was supporting people.
We had child health nurses holding
families, you know, during that period.
we had on the ground mums groups
operating, and then COVID came
and really disrupted that time.
And what we've seen since then, during
COVID, we had parents reaching out, within
the first month of bringing bubs home.
and a lot of the work that we were
doing was around that adjustment,
roll adaptation and, positive
parenting kind of support.
But we know now that, that, now
that services kicked off a bit more
in local communities that we have
moved a little bit, but parents
are still seeking support, at two
to three months after having their
bub or during the pregnancy period.
rule is though, there's no right or wrong.
To that, ultimately this is about
unique individuals putting themselves
first and, and trusting those
flags, reaching out for support.
And if somebody comes to us with really
complicated needs or, quite ongoing needs,
so they haven't, they, they for haven't
for whatever reason been able to seek
support, we're absolutely there for them.
And we can support their navigation
into, specialized services if we
are not the best space for them.
or we can hold them while they wait
for other services to wrap around them.
Especially in states where we have
funding for our intensive care and
coordination services, which is Northern
Territory, Queensland and Victoria.
we have really great longitudinal care
programs that we can wrap around people
Emily: Fantastic.
And so if there's someone that perhaps
is having, uh, suicidal thoughts,
thoughts about hurting their children or
psychosis, could you paint, I guess, a
little bit more of what they might expect?
Again, if they're feeling a bit
fearful of telling people they might,
be worried is there anything that
you can kind of explain the path
in a bit more of a, a real sense so
they can see how they're supported,
they can
um, as opposed to, you know, having
a, the worst case scenario, I guess.
Julie Borninkhof: worst case.
Yeah, absolutely.
and, I would direct people who are
in this space or, or supporting
somebody around psychosis or complex
mental health concerns to check out
some of the resources we've produced.
We, in partnership with
other, organizations around
mother baby units and things.
So for somebody who's experiencing,
psychosis or acute suicidal ideation,
where they need help from a hospital
system, we absolutely will, have
the call with the individual.
Or quite often if it's psychosis, it's
with a family member who's noticing
things that are going on and, and
feels that they're, this person is
not acting the way they normally
would or is not, uh, behaving or
speaking the way they normally would.
And they're ringing us to say,
Hey, I'm seeing all of this.
Is this normal?
so quite often we pick
up psychosis through.
Uh, people in that individual's world.
but then the process is bringing the
individual into that call experience,
having a conversation, trying to get a
read on how they're going, looking at
what other supports they have in place.
We absolutely support people
in ensuring that they get
access to the right services.
So our, our organization is committed
to knowing that when people are really
experiencing complex need, the best
place for them is to be supported
by psychiatry or, mother, baby unit.
So outpatient care in a hospital system,
and we'll always support them to access
those services wherever possible.
And we'll, you know, provide liaison with
treating physicians and try to get a part
of the care team together to be able to
speak through that and, and, you know,
um, metaphorically hold the individual's
hand as they navigate that space.
Um, if people are reaching out to us
with suicidal ideation, we always assess
where they are in that spectrum of ha
a harm to themselves because we know
that, you know, this is a leading cause
of death still for mums in this period.
that we need to be taking suicidal
thoughts really seriously.
But we also need to be normalizing them.
And that is that as individuals in this
world, we avoid things that create and
do us harm, so it's really normal to
feel like you wanna separate from this
experience and not be here, especially
if you feel like you're failing.
So our job is to really.
through that, that experience,
normalize that experience and let
people know that they're not faulty
or failing in having those thoughts.
Then it's really about
unpacking the level of risk.
And if the individual is at, high
risk, immediate concern, then we'll
seek out, emergency services perhaps
to be able to come to that individual
while we are still on the call.
Um, or, anywhere in between we'll
be, again, supporting that person
to be able to access the right care.
Um, we are not a crisis service,
so unfortunately we are not
available 24 7 for people who
are experiencing suicidal risks.
So we do rely on our partners to be able
to be there, such as Lifeline and all of
the other amazing services in the country.
but we'll always make sure that
people get to a trading physician
or a GP or into a tertiary service
when they're at that level of risk.
Emily: Okay.
So handholding, walking through
the different phases, checking
what, uh, level they're at, and
providing support even to partners
or family members that are noticing.
So again, summarizing, so making sure our
audience is, is capturing that because
there may be, yeah, there may be a lot of
partners, that have noticed this because
perhaps, uh, they're not as much in the
midst of it because they're going to work.
And,
they're not
maybe having more sleep, because
sometimes one parent, cops less of
sleep by the other one works on the,
a job which has income as opposed
to parenthood isn't, isn't paid.
okay, that's, that's really helpful.
And then, so for anyone that's
needs an emergency lifeline or
obviously emergency services,
needs an
if it's outside of that 8:00 PM
uh, cutoff or on a Sunday, because
I think you mentioned, so Saturday
there's a, what's the times?
Julie Borninkhof: Uh, 10:00 AM
till 4:00 PM is the time that
the help line open on a Saturday.
We'd
Emily: Okay.
Julie Borninkhof: hours if you know
the government wants to fund us more.
Emily: Yes.
Yes.
Well, I know you are working
on that at the moment.
So he is hoping that they, uh,
I know
the government, if they're
listening, get some funding through.
Okay.
So going on.
So, now I've read, uh, some of the reports
that, PANDA has produced in terms of some
of the, Stats, I know you do reports.
I don't know if it's year
on year or every few years.
Julie Borninkhof: Every
Emily: but things such as rising
financial pressure on families is
definitely a contributive factor.
So year on year, it's a 20%, increase.
in terms of a driver, I've got
the year report complexity of
issues, which we've talked about.
So that's increased.
So parents calling later when, at
more high risk, for example, suicide,
postnatal depression, not calling early.
So everyone listening, do
that early work if you can.
If not make call or, or obviously
call the outside of lines.
and then.
8.6%
of callers are experiencing
thoughts of suicide.
which is obviously a really strong sign
that there's, there's people needing help.
So with that financial
pressure, complexity of issues.
and then you've also mentioned
that culturally and linguistically
families,
families, um, are not calling for help.
So I know you look at
that data, and you are
to provide
to provide more services there.
So again, a call out to, to families.
Maybe if we talk about the culturally
diverse, for anyone listening,
Um,
um, what is it PANDA's trying to do at the
moment and what's on offer at the moment?
Julie Borninkhof: Great question.
So, one of the key, um, targets that
we have is to ensure that everyone
can access our services and supports.
And we know that, you know, barriers
like language and, um, geographical
I.
Often get in the way of people
being able to access support.
So PANDA has significantly contributed to
increasing, the information, availability
and accessibility through, creating
lots of targeted and translated content.
So if you go onto our website and you
speak, and, uh, or are more comfortable
accessing information in another
language, you can hit the little global
icon at the top right of our website.
And, um, it takes you to all
of our translated content.
and that is really important, especially
we hear from callers and users where,
specific cultures don't necessarily have a
concept of perinatal mental health issues.
and quite often having, uh.
Conversations with in-laws or parents
can be really hard to be able to get
that support community around you when
culturally people don't understand.
So those tools and resources have
been really helpful in expanding, not
just the individual's understanding,
but their care community also.
and we also have translated our mental
health checklist, which, we've had
28,000 screens done through that
checklist in the last, financial year.
And mo 75% of those have been completed
after hours when our helpline is closed.
So that's an amazing tool.
and we now have that
translated into 40 languages.
So that is also a really
valuable, asset for the community.
And out of that, they get a report.
And that report is really great because
it puts into words the individual's
experience, and often it's how do I start
the conversation and will people take
me seriously and do I really have an
issue that people are kind of tentative
around when they're seeking support?
So that.
Report and output and, and affirmation
that my experience is valid and I
need somebody to hear me, is really
powerful when you use that resource.
So having that translated is amazing.
and we also provide services on the
helpline supported by translators
where we need to, on that, you
know, the helpline every day.
That's an amazing piece
of work that we do.
Fantastic.
Emily: Fantastic.
And I think I'm hearing
a couple call outs there.
So
people
if people are from a diverse cultural
background where, as Julie mentioned,
mental health or getting support
or things of that nature are not
normal, know that there are resources.
Um, and also if you are
having conversations with,
people
people that are generations where
they're not used to support or they're.
I don't know from a, from a
country where it's, it's unusual.
sure
Make sure you note that when
you're talking to them, because,
um, it doesn't mean you are
involved.
as valid.
It might just be that the, the
audience you're speaking to is not,
on the
on the journey, let's say,
because sometimes it's, it's a
matter of education and exposure.
and, you
highlighted,
the, let's say intergenerational.
And it's, it's funny you mention
this because I was actually
speaking to, AMBA, so the Australian
Multiple Births (Association) board
Yesterday
and we were talking about
of
some of the comments people make
around, while we provide help for you.
I was fine.
I just, made it,
made I,
it work.
And I think, I have
many
many relatives and they've talked
about, you know, the struggles
back when, whatever time that
they, had their families.
And, and it was a lot of, you know, just.
Grin and bear it.
And I, I don't know
how you'd explain this.
I'm interested for your opinion, uh,
Julie, but it's not about everyone's soft.
Let's help everyone.
It's just about, Hey,
there's always been issues.
Let's,
Let's, let's work on them.
And, and we've got a lot more
information to have people in,
in a better space moving forward.
How would you, I guess, respond to that
if you were speaking to someone that said,
well,
well was, it's not really an issue,
you're all just soft, or something
of that, of that type of response.
Julie Borninkhof: I think, ultimately
it comes down first and foremost,
to the fact that if it's an indi,
if it's an issue for the individual,
it's an issue for the individual.
Full stop.
and as external parties, our
judgment of that is, where we come
unstuck because we don't honor and
validate each other's experience.
But I also think that we've come
through some amazing changes in the
health system and in the kind of
demystifying mental health and trying
to de-stigmatize mental health.
And COVID again was a really good leveler
where people were really struggling and
openly talking about that, and the country
got better at talking about mental health.
So I think, if we look back at
intergenerationally, when my mum was,
parenting, she would most certainly
have said, oh, we had to tough
it out and you'll get through it.
And everyone else had to.
Yeah.
That doesn't change the fact that,
you only have one goal at being
this parent in your world, and you
only get one crack at life if that's
what you believe, um, spiritually.
So you wanna make it count, you wanna
put yourself forward and your experiences
as important as the next person.
And I often, chuckle about this
because as women especially, we are
really good at not accessing services
and supports because we don't wanna
clog up the system for other people.
Um, but more and more so as our younger
gener or more recent generations of
parenting, we're seeing much more
self-advocacy and self-determination
in people putting themselves first.
And that's a great.
Because you know you deserve the best.
And, and so I think regardless
of what people say, that can
again, kind of ratchet up that
benchmark you set for yourself.
and you wanna be focusing in
on your experience, not other
people's and how they justify
whether or not they sought support.
So I would just say put yourself first,
you know, and, and absolutely focus in
on what you wanna build and that is a
healthy relationship with your baby.
And as best of as possible, a
parenting environment for you to grow
this little person who will become
May, hopefully one day or maybe
one day their own parent, you know?
And, and I think that that's
such an important and cool
thing for us to be focusing on.
Fantastic.
Emily: way to explain it.
Thank you, Julie.
Um, we have another statistic which
we, which is, well, not surprising
to me, but I, I'd love to hear
more about it from yourself.
So the dad gap.
so not engaging with, services at all
or engaging digitally and dropping
off before they do in person.
and then,
decreased
decreased engagement year on year.
So I've got a stat here, 15% of dads or
one in 10 experience issues, but only 5.5%
of those are engaging.
and it's, so, so it is quite a big gap.
Would you like to talk, I guess,
about, you know, what's driving that?
What are the trends and, and
what can we do about that?
Julie Borninkhof: So I think firstly
it's about framing it in that PANDA
accepts that, you know, we might not
be the first protocol that a dad would
come to, and that that data is related
to the percentage of our callers.
and, I think dads who have experienced
care from our supports absolutely
advocate for them, and have a really
good experience when we look at their,
outcomes and their experience of
services once they transition out.
So we're absolutely there to
support people, but we understand
that men access, support and
talk about support and process.
You know, information
really differently to women.
So where, wherever possible, uh, and
you'll see if you visit our website,
we, we absolutely have tabs that filter
information for men, um, because we know
that they want to be seeing information
presented in different language, that
we are not necessarily talking about so
much the emotional experience, but more
the physical and the kind of disruption
and risk experience that men, have.
So, we try to reframe and again,
come back to that person centered
approach to how we provide support.
But we know we've got way more
to do in that space, you know?
Um.
We also know that the, the name
PANDA isn't necessarily something
that men may resonate with.
Um, that's just an assumption.
But, I, I think, the conversations
I've had would be there to say that.
Um, but we do know that there are some
amazing supports such as SMS for dads
and dad, booster dads groups, and we
work really beautifully in partnership
with them to drive people through
and refer people onto those services,
either as complimentary supports or
in just raising awareness for those
supports because they're there, they're
run by men, they're co-created by men.
and they, have great outcomes for, for
dads who may need support at this time.
So we don't expect to be doing
it all for the community.
our role is very much about signposting.
Good services supports apps, websites,
for people and getting them the
help in whatever form they need it.
But we do know we've got more to
do, and we also know that we are not
good as a country in screening dads.
We're getting better, but because
dads aren't often in the, you know,
healthcare appointments or, we don't
have the same opportunities to screen
dads and have those conversations,
we, we fail to hook them in and
support them at the right times.
so there's more work to be done there too.
But I would highly encourage men to
seek support and everyone to seek
support and put themselves first.
Absolutely.
Emily: Absolutely.
And I love that you
mentioned the name PANDA.
Uh, just, just a thought.
I mean, you're probably not gonna
do this 'cause the rebrand would
be painful, but PAND-O like Davo.
Julie Borninkhof: Love it.
We can do a little cross out spin.
Give it a try.
Emily: welcome.
You can take it.
Julie Borninkhof: will.
Emily: but yeah, look, I I have
spoken to a lot of dads, and even
with my partner as well, I did observe
the gap in, bringing them on the
journey and then providing support.
So.
I've
I've also had
recent
a recent guest on, I've had a few dads,
actually two dads on, so I had the twin
dad expert, recently, and he's had 17
years, yeah, 17 years of speaking to
dads of multiples around the world.
Julie Borninkhof: and
Emily: And he was talking about, you know,
men do need help and, and his children
are now driving, so they're 18 to 22.
he's got a few.
And, so he's seen through
the generations and
Talked
talked about.
men,
Men, if you are able to, to advocate
for yourself and if you can attend
or do a phone dial in, so at least
you're seen, you know, that that,
that it's real during the pregnancy.
Advocating for yourself and asking
questions through the medical system
because we don't do that well.
And it can be, you know, scary.
And again, if you've got a male
that's got preexisting trauma
perhaps
perhaps I have a friend and their partner
witnessed the birth a, a traumatic
birth and was absolutely traumatized.
um, you know, and again, the partner of
someone with psychosis, so they do, they
do need support and so it's great to see.
I know your website has got
some, dad specific stuff.
And, and again, let's make sure I mention
that we know that not everyone's a dad.
There's also partners out there, so
there's, there's partner support, but
in particular with supporting men, I
think it's great to hear that you've
got, an offering there and the references
you mentioned, those organizations.
I'll add those to the show notes.
So I might add.
Message and we'll pop those
in those links there as well.
and we know that culturally
Australia, again, very diverse,
but typically it's pretty
A
hyper-masculine, culture, which,
Would
don't know.
Would you say that perhaps contributes
to people not accessing or, or feeling
that they need to be that male that's.
Julie Borninkhof: Absolutely.
I still think we have those societal norms
in place where men feel that they need to
be the rock that holds things together.
And as we.
you know, even rocks crumble.
It's, it's akay to not be doing so well.
And you know, we do find that often
dads are seeking support for their
partners to understand their experience
and make that initial reach out.
And when we do scratch under the
surface, they're also struggling.
So we're, we know women are struggling,
our partners are struggling quite often.
Their, their co-pilots
are also in the same seat.
So I think, again, putting yourself
first and understanding that you
can be a better dad, you can be a
better worker, you can be whatever
role it is that you need to take on
in this period, by seeking support.
And it's not a sign of failure or
not able to do all of those things
and keep all the balls in the air.
It is just wanting to be the best you
can be in that time with as little
impact on your health and wellbeing
so that you're keeping your health
yourself healthy and safe, and then
that flows onto your family unit.
So again, I think just seeking support
and, and putting yourself first and
trying to step away from the stigma that
does exist around help seeking for men
in this country around mental health.
Emily: Thank you Julie.
I
Yeah.
I think, if, if you've not done it
before, whether it be parenting or
you've not had multiples or you've not
had six kids, whatever your situation
is, or maybe you've got personal
stress going on, you can't expect.
To nail it, you just can't.
And it is a lot of physical pressure.
The body just, it will crumble from
exhaustion or, you know, stress,
cortisol, it'll, it'll get you.
Julie Borninkhof: Absolutely.
Yeah.
Emily: yeah.
Julie Borninkhof: Hear about
Emily: good to hear about that.
And just quickly as well, I
mentioned so partners as well.
So obviously there's some same sex
couples, there's also parents that are
solo that might have a support person.
are
So are those individuals, like, could
you maybe explain, I guess how they'd
go through the, the, supports as well?
Julie Borninkhof: So the support
offerings are absolutely the same.
And, you know, we've got some beautiful
case studies from our community
that have experienced our services
for single parents, from, non-birth
parents or, you know, same-sex couples.
We, we absolutely are there for everyone,
and we feel it's an such a privilege to be
able to, provide support to the individual
regardless of their story, their journey,
their identity, and we just value being
able to be there for all of our community.
So go online and check
out some of the stories.
We've also got a podcast series, survive
and Thrive on, our website that you can
link to that has some of those stories.
Talk through th sorry.
Podcast.
Um, and we pride ourselves on
ensuring that our staff are, you know,
trained and experts in delivering
care to absolutely every community
type and individual identity type
that we have in this country.
Emily: Fantastic.
Fantastic for covering that off.
So relationships is a hot topic and
we've touched on this a bit, but say,
your parent and whether it's you've
got a surprise baby, a surprise few
babies, surprise extra babies, or you
know, you're just exhausted and you're
fighting, you are at each other's necks.
It could
it could be early days
or, onwards and upwards.
I think it ever gets easier.
Mine are really through, but I'm assuming
there's, there's always complexities.
because that is life,
Julie Borninkhof: I have thirteen
year old and it keeps going, sorry.
Emily: Well, you'll be well
equipped, thank goodness.
but Julie, if people are struggling,
what are some examples of
what the help they can get?
and is there an maybe if you've
got a particular example of, a
relationship that improved to show
people what might be possible?
Julie Borninkhof: Oh look, I think,
you know, whilst I can't call out
one, particular case study about, a
relationship impact on, on seeking
support, I know that probably the
majority of callers that we support
every day would have relational issues
as a result of their experience.
And, ultimately if you think about, you
know, your mental health and wellbeing
part as a part of your relationship with
yourself, and if you feel that something's
going on for you and you can't trust
yourself and you know that you feel like
something's wrong and you are living
with that day to day and then trying
to care for this baby, then you can.
Pretty much guess that your relationship
is also going to be suffering because
your relationship with self is suffering.
Yeah.
Um, so I think it is really important
to understand that it's absolutely
normal for you to feel that you have
nothing more to give to your partner,
and that your ability to juggle all
of these balls is a really valid one.
Um, again, we tell our partners
to go easy on each other.
You know, often, um, those kind of role
dynamics and how people are observing
each other play into this period of,
you know, complete destabilization.
Um, and you start to sit in
a space of judgment and, you
know, judging each other's, you
know, capacity to support you.
And, um, and I think, you know, it,
it really is just understanding that.
This is a really hard time, you know?
And it's absolutely okay to not
feel good about it and perhaps
hate parts of being a parent.
Perhaps hate parts of your, your
partner, you know, through that,
journey because that is normal.
We don't love everything about
everyone all of the time.
And I think, you know, reminding each
other that that doesn't mean that
your relationship will fall apart.
It just means you're going through a
tough time and reaching out for support.
Normalizing that looking at
activities that you can do to support
each other is just so important.
And I think preemptively, you know,
one of the things I used to talk to my
clients about when I was, uh, practicing
clinically, you know, in part of that
kind of getting ready for having your bub,
one of the beautiful things you can do
is also, you know, sit down and kind of.
Tissue boxes, as I call it.
Write down the things that make you as
a couple what, what you love to do with
each other to bring yourselves together.
Um, because often when you have bubs
in the mix, you know, you forget
all of those things that you used
to do to care for the relationship.
And relationships take time.
So being able to pull a scrap of paper out
that says, don't forget to go for a walk.
Don't, don't forget to go out for dinner.
You know, don't forget to listen to this
song that we're, you know, any of those
things that you just don't have the time
or the energy or the motivation to do.
Because unfortunately you do
have to feed relationships.
Um, but go gently with each other.
Near enough is good enough.
And remember, it's absolutely normal
for relationships to struggle, but
relationships are a two-way thing.
And they breathe and they separate
and they come back together and they
separate and they come together and.
That will happen through this
process, and that's okay, you know?
But in the event that it does feel
like, you know, your relationship
is really suffering, like anything,
hold the flag up, own the flag.
Let the flag lead you
forward to getting support
Emily: I love how you've explained that.
You remind me of again, this
very wise, uh, twin dad.
Twin dad, Joe.
Shout out to Joe.
again
again is, is further on
the journey and he said
That
that first stage of when you
have children, again, if it's an
extreme version, which with our
listeners, but again, multiples,
You, you do lose a bit of those
things you used to do for yourself.
It might be the first time you
are not having your identity
or doing your things for you.
talked
he talked about, having an
expectation that that's what it is.
Having a joint expectation talking
about it and knowing that you
do come out the other side and
it's still beautiful, it's messy.
but remembering the positives in
there and that you are a team.
so I thought I'd flag that.
'cause you, you prompted that
somewhat, you know, people that are wise.
I mean, you, again, you're
further on with your 13-year-old.
So I think it, it's perhaps when
people go into, it's such a shock
if it's your first time as a parent,
Julie Borninkhof: can be
Emily: that
Julie Borninkhof: when it's
your second time as a parent.
Your first time is easy.
Yeah.
Like there's,
Emily: yes.
Julie Borninkhof: rhyme or reason to it.
Emily: Yeah, yeah.
Whatever that looks like.
And you know, I, I'm a twin
as well, Julie, and I was
thinking this with my twins.
I was observing them.
They're three year olds, three old boys.
Julie Borninkhof: Um,
they're at
Emily: are at each other.
Julie Borninkhof: in
Emily: And in my head I'm trying to
explain to these three year olds, I'm
like, the reason that you are really
irritated by your brother is because you
spend so much time together and you are,
you're tired, you're full of hormones.
'cause they're going through
some sort of leap apparently
at different times, which is,
Julie Borninkhof: Um,
Emily: but that friction that occurs when
you're purely around someone all the time
Julie Borninkhof: it
Emily: as it applies to, to
multiples, also applies to, to
parenthood and work everything.
And so knowing that a lot of that friction
isn't really so much, I would say,
attributed to that person that's by you.
It's purely because you are not your
best self or you're going through
whatever and they're right next to you.
So
Julie Borninkhof: And you have
Emily: who calls.
Julie Borninkhof: as well.
You know, I think that often friction
in relationships at whatever age
or stage, you're about this feeling
that you need this person, but you
want to be away from this person.
And like magnets, repelling,
there's this kind of little energy
field, which is, I need you, I
want, you know, get away from me.
And that's part of a relationship
as well as, you know, little kids
individuate and start to build
their own identities and skill sets.
And as relationships grow and experience
trauma or change or, more positive
sort of growth, they do the same thing.
It's like, I, I need this, I want
this, oh, but I wanna be independent.
And it's that kind of constant dance
again that I was talking about before.
So I think they're really healthy,
they're really healthy in, in
the identity that you have.
And you have that same relationship
with yourself as you grow new skills.
Emily: I love that you say it's healthy.
Everybody note that down.
Julie Borninkhof: It doesn't feel
right in the moment, but it's healthy.
Emily: Yeah, it's actually like,
I would say that's a bit of a
mind blow for me because I, it
is because it means that you care
Julie Borninkhof: Absolutely.
Emily: and you're human, which is,
needing to navigate through it.
Any top tips you'd say to someone,
if they're in the middle of some
sort of relationship struggle,
like activities they can do?
Is it talking to that partner?
Is it presetting the calendar
invite where you go out on a date,
whether it's, you have to take the
kids, put them in a fence park, or
Julie Borninkhof: yeah.
Emily: any any tips that you
think, as a, a bit of an expert
might, might be handy for people.
Julie Borninkhof: I think, not forcing it,
but trying to have those intimate moments.
And by intimate, I don't just mean sexual.
I mean, you know, those really intimate
moments where you can kind of sit
together and strip back your experience,
even if it's just sitting and looking
at each other, without distraction.
It, it's that reconnection, I
think that is just so important.
I think, really ensuring that you
don't wait for the right time.
We have this kind of flaw in us as,
as you individuals, which is, I'm, I'm
waiting for the right time to have a
conversation that this doesn't feel right.
Or, I'm waiting till I can see
my partner's doing okay that I
can bring this up or whatever.
And the reality is there's
never a right time.
There's never going to be a right
time, because these conversations
don't come easy and we're all conflict
avoiders at heart, you know, as people.
So I think, really finding a way to
have that conversation when Phil.
Things don't feel right and
trying to snag it early.
And if it is about something that
your partner's doing, or if it is
about something that just doesn't feel
good in that relationship, you can
then use that conversation to draw
on when you, come to the next one and
it gets ha that it gets less and less
difficult because you've started it.
So being able to say, last week when
I said to you that I was struggling
with this, that's a much easier
way to enter a conversation when
there is, conflict or issue or
whatever it is that's not resolved.
So I would just encourage people
to, Feel okay at talking, if you're
thinking about it, talk about it is
always that kind of first rule, and
not going into the conversation feeling
like it's gonna get fixed or resolved.
Just entering the conversation
is powerful in its own right.
Um, and reminding yourself that ultimately
you're with this person for a reason,
you know, and you don't have to be
with that person if it's not healthy
or good for you, and that's okay too.
So, just looking after yourself
and going easy on yourself and the
relationship is just so important.
Emily: Thank I think
that's really insightful.
And, um, yes or no having conversations
late night or end of the week after
everyone's tired, avoid, or is it
just best to have the conversation?
Is there, is there a standard there?
Julie Borninkhof: I say yes personally.
You know, my rule is always,
I mean, I, I'm, I've been
with my husband for 30 years.
We don't go to sleep having something
burning that we need to say regardless
of whether it's about our daughter
or our relationship or whatever.
I think, you know, anytime that you're
holding that in, when you're in a
relationship and a partnership, you're
kind of not laying all the pieces
out on the table and then you're
expecting somebody to be able to see
the whole picture and they just can't.
So, I think, always having the
conversation if you feel able to, as
long as it feels healthy, you know, if
it's going to make you unhealthy or if
you're in a violent partnership or any
of those things, and absolutely not.
do it at those high tension points.
Um, but I think that you are gonna
feel better and your partner's gonna
feel better because we forget that our
partners are constantly monitoring us.
They know when something's
going on, and they're.
Usually something to themselves.
It's all my fault.
It's all my fault.
It's all my fault.
Oh God, I'm not doing good either.
You know when the reality is it's
the bub that's causing the issue, or
it's the mother-in-law or something.
So I think just again, sorry.
You asked for yes or no.
I can't do yes or no
Emily: Any response
from an expert is fine.
I think that the resounding thing is
have the conversation if you need to do
your checks as to whether it's healthy
or if it's a violent relationship.
That's not ideal.
but thank you.
I think that's really insightful
because I always wonder about that.
Do you have the conversation or
do you say now it's not good?
So thank you for sharing that.
So I another thing I wanted to mention is
for our global listeners, this particular
organization, PANDAs, is quite unique and
you do actually set a standard globally.
So I think for those of us who
are based in Australia and able
to access this, know that it is, a
really specialist valuable service.
It's integrated in states,
as Julie mentioned, with,
some of the medical systems.
So tying in with the hospitals is
that the right way to explain it?
Julie Borninkhof: Local services
outside of the hospital system, but
also, we work with, birthing teams
and, uh, tertiary care Absolutely.
In the hospital systems.
And we also support
international partners.
So we have some great, trials in Norway
and, we are supporting an organization, in
Austria who's translating what we do into
practice, our mental health checklist.
We love supporting other countries
and we also have other people
from other countries completing
our mental health checklist.
So it's, thrilling to be able
to give people a rate on how
they're going psychologically from
wherever they sit on the globe.
Perfect.
Emily: Fantastic.
So international people can still
do the online check systems and
resources, which is just wonderful.
And if there's anybody out there
that thinks their country could
do better, I know that Julie does,
support these other countries.
So get in touch with them and
perhaps you can be that person to,
to set it up because it is really
valuable and it's not a, not an issue
that's gonna go away anytime soon.
Julie Borninkhof: No, sadly
Emily: No, no.
So here's a good question for you, Julie.
What gives you hope?
Even though the statistics sometimes feel
quite overwhelming, especially if we talk
about parenthood and then we add that
layer of twins, multiples, et cetera.
Julie Borninkhof: Oh, so many things.
Give me hope.
I think, the ability as an organization
to have seen in the six years that
I've been with it at kind of triple
in size and scope and capacity, show
me that there's a real motivation in
this country to do better for parents.
Being able to see when you go online
to PANDA's website or our partner's
website, this beautiful co-created
content that, shows we are listening to
our communities and that we're creating
supports and resources that they want.
That gives me hope because I think,
often we sit in these, helping
organizations and we are not always
doing the right thing by our community
because we're not hearing from them.
So it gives me hope to lead an
organization that listens, that
cares, that advocates, and that
people value what it is we do.
Yeah, that's
Emily: absolutely.
That's beautiful.
And the fact that you've got states that
are investing, I know at a government
federal level, and then there's
international, countries as well.
So that's great.
And more information
to
opposed to, you know, the, uh, grin and
bear it that, apparently has been Yeah,
Julie Borninkhof: toughen up
Emily: And, you know, struggle and have
a horrible time by, by yourself quietly.
Okay,
Um,
so look,
so look, I wanna mention as well, so
by the time this episode goes live, it
will be Perinatal Mental Health Week
Julie Borninkhof: you
Emily: Would you like to, I guess, Julie,
explain what that is and why it exists?
Julie Borninkhof: Absolutely.
So, uh, PANDA created a number of
years ago, Perinatal Mental Health
Week (PMHW) as an awareness week
that we love to have in this country.
we have Mental Health week and Dad's
Week and all, all, all of these
sort of, milestones across the year.
And, it was really important to our
organization historically to market time
when we were able to focus in on that
both in the media and politically, for
our community and with our community.
So empowering, our, users and people
who advocate for our services to
have conversations at a local level.
And that's grown and grown and now, it's
a really national, time of the year.
We come together as a sector.
All of the organizations that support
people in the perinatal mental health
space come to Parliament House.
We, meet with politicians and we talk
about what we've been able to do,
and we have people with real life
experience that present their, their
journey to everyone in attendance
and the ministers in attendance.
And it's a really nice
acknowledgement of the work that
we are, fighting for and doing for
our community across the country.
And we get increased access to,
drive messaging through media,
and to provide the community with
more targeted information as a
collective, which is just so important.
So while we do this work every day of
the year, it's really nice to kind of
celebrate that and bring it all and
weave it all together at this one time.
So that's in November.
Fantastic.
Emily: Fantastic.
And look, I think getting awareness
out there to, people that need it
is really important as well, right?
So it's pushing that message, which is
obviously where our goal today is, is
to get this in front of people, let them
know the services and what that looks like
and, and paint it so it's a bit more real.
Is there will, the PANDA
social media pages be sharing
information across that week?
Any call to actions for listeners if
they want to perhaps share information
to others who might be struggling, say
they've seen someone that's looking a
bit sketchy or perhaps might, sketchy
is probably the wrong word, but looking
like in a, in a situation of, need,
future, anything that people can
do, like resharing posts, et cetera.
Julie Borninkhof: So, there is
a Perinatal Mental Health Week,
website that is the partnered
organizations and they have themes
for each of the days across the week.
The theme for the week is 'What
you want, when you need it.'.
ensuring that we're getting the message
out that whilst we don't all in this
country have access to the services we
want when we need them, that we have
a role to be advocating for them, and
that there are great partners that are
there for people when they need them.
so getting that message out or visiting
PANDAs social, all of the organizations
that prioritize Perinatal mental
health in Australia have got their
own social, posts going at that time.
And it's often really loud and
there's lots of great stories being
shared and lots of responses from
people who have their own experience.
So I think just getting involved in
PANDAs socials or the Perinatal Mental
Health Week socials is just so important
to, you know, if you're interested
in passionate about this space.
Emily: Absolutely wonderful.
Well, look, I know that I've had
pretty much, most of my guests I've
interviewed so far have talked about
mental health, of varying degrees.
I know that we had a guest
on who has quadruplets, who
called PANDA specifically.
and so I think, yeah,
I think.
Yeah.
so I think, um, yeah, there's
Julie Borninkhof: think,
Emily: a lot of good you do
and there's certainly, um, in
our audience there's a big, uh,
audience potential need, whether
that be at the, the front end of the
scale or, you know, at the far end.
So look, I really hope
people do access that.
If you can share some posts just
to get your friends aware of it,
to
please, please do so.
And we will obviously be sharing
some posts, across that week as well.
Julie, any final thoughts or
comments to leave the audience with?
Julie Borninkhof: Look, just, I
think put yourself first people,
don't wait for the right time
if something doesn't feel right.
reach out for support from PANDA
or have a look at the other
range of services available.
It's just so important that
people feel able to, connect up.
And the worst that's gonna happen
is that they're gonna realize
through that conversation that
they're actually doing okay.
And that's, that's kind
of the worst of it.
The best is that you need
ongoing support and organizations
like ours can wrap around you.
So I just think put yourself
first and make that call.
And, thanks so much for having
the conversation, Emily.
being able to go through these
experiences and normalize them
are absolutely what we love to do.
Emily: You're very welcome.
It's been an absolute pleasure, Julie,
Julie Borninkhof: Thanks Emily.
Thanks so much for the opportunity
and thanks for listening everybody.
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