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Welcome to American Heritage School's Patriot Podcast, hosted by the students of the podcast class at the AHS campus in downtown Salt Lake City. Each episode features students interviewing professionals, experts, and inspiring guests to explore real-world experiences through the lens of The Seven Principles of Personal and Civil Liberty. These conversations are designed to uplift, educate, and spark meaningful dialogue within the family.
Tune in with your family each week to learn together, reflect on the values that matter most, and be inspired to live with greater purpose and principle.
Learn more about The Seven Principles of Personal and Civil Liberty here: https://slc.americanheritageschool.org/the-seven-principles
What's up? What's up? What's up?
Eduardo:We're here at American Heritage School
Morgan:in Salt Lake City, and this is the Patriot Podcast,
Shima Baughman:where we get to talk
Morgan:to different professionals about their awesome jobs.
Eduardo:At AHS, we strive to live the seven principles of personal and civil liberty.
Morgan:So we'll be talking to each professional
Eduardo:about how they apply
Morgan:these principles each day.
Shima Baughman:Let's dive right in.
Morgan:Let's dive right in.
Eduardo:Let's dive right in.
Morgan:Hi. I'm Morgan.
Eduardo:And I'm Eduardo. Welcome to the American Heritage School Masterclass Podcast. We're excited to talk with Mrs. Shima Baughman today.
Morgan:Mrs. Baughman, will you please give our audience a brief self introduction, including your education and career track?
Shima Baughman:Sure. I'd love to. Once I graduated high school, I went to college at BYU, which is awesome. Go Cougars. And then I went to BYU Law School after that, so I didn't get enough of that, right?
Shima Baughman:Seven years at BYU, which I loved. After that, did a clerkship with a judge in Las Vegas. He was a federal judge. He also was LDS. Great person.
Shima Baughman:Great mentor. Then I worked in New York City for three and a half years doing what's called corporate litigation. So I represented people like you guys know Hotels.com? Anyone heard of that? Or, like, Travelocity, like Expedia.
Shima Baughman:So we had this big lawsuit I worked on. I also helped a Jewish rabbi in a big, religious freedom case trying to help him to get access to pray in his cell. So lots of fun stuff that way. Then I guess I ended up doing more legal work in Malawi. I did some African criminal defense work, policy work in Africa on HIV and some other things.
Shima Baughman:Then I ended up teaching at BYU in 2010 and I've been a law professor since which means I just teach law students. Every law student has state criminal law, that's what I teach. I also teach a course on happiness. It's called the Pursuit of Happiness, which you all know really well because where does the pursuit of happiness come from?
Morgan:You all know? The song?
Shima Baughman:Maybe that, but also in the anyone know the Declaration of Independence? Life, liberty, and Pursuit happiness. Pursuit happiness. So yeah, there you go. So it's a class about the pursuit of happiness, and how you can pursue happiness by following the laws of God.
Shima Baughman:Cool, right? So that's where I'm
Eduardo:at now.
Morgan:How did you become a college law professor?
Shima Baughman:Okay, so I always wanted to teach law. I thought it would be really cool because I loved writing. So any of you that like writing, some people think you have to like to argue to be a lawyer. Some lawyers argue, but all of them write. So I knew I liked writing.
Shima Baughman:So I always wanted to to write about different issues. I did a sociology degree for my undergraduate degree, and that's just like looking at social problems. So I was really drawn to kind of how do I help solve all these big problems in society like crime or like families broken being broken up and all these horrible things I saw in society. And so I thought maybe if I got a law degree, could learn more about the law and figure out how to help solve those problems. I was really interested in violence, like I saw sexual abuse and things like that and I thought this is really bad, I would love to kind of use my law degree to help that.
Shima Baughman:That's why I decided to study law and then once I got into it I thought oh I want to do public policy work and so those that do policy work some of them are law professors, other people are legislators, so they're they go into congress and they write bills but if you want to be really effective at legislation, having a law degree is really helpful for that. So, I started to realize that and then I just thought, you know, I don't want to do legislation. I want to teach law. I want to teach lawyers and then write books and articles about how to improve kind of the the criminal justice system. So for the last, I guess, fourteen years, I've been writing articles about bail.
Shima Baughman:I don't if you've heard of that. Police, prosecutors, violent crime, stuff like that. Things you see in the news or on TV shows and showing how we can kind of get into a better place with our criminal justice system in The US.
Eduardo:Yeah, that's that's really interesting. At American Heritage, we try to live by the principles of personal and civil liberty. Which of these principles has guided your career as a lawyer? And will you share a personal experience showing how this principle has helped you?
Shima Baughman:Oh, love that question. Yes. I love all of your principles, obviously. But the one I love the most, or at least applied to me the most, is the first one, divine identity and purpose. So God is our loving heavenly father.
Shima Baughman:He's endowed each of his children with the gifts of life, the freedom to choose, and the divine identity and purpose. Civil liberties founded on the truth that these are inalienable, God given rights. Something to share with a personal story about my background is I was born in Iran, and I was living there until I was seven. I don't know if you all have heard about Iran, but it's a country where you don't have freedom like we do in The US. We don't have the freedom to choose all the things that you get to choose.
Shima Baughman:For instance, right, you all get to graduate from high school and then you get to decide, well, what do I want to major in college? Even that choice is kind of taken away from you. So what happens is every student takes an exam at the end of high school and depending on how you score on that exam, that's what you get to do. So if you score like a C, you get to be a lawyer. Or if you get an A, you get to be a doctor.
Shima Baughman:Right? So that's how they decide it. You don't have liberty to choose what you would want based on what's, you know, God bless you with, what your divine identity is. And my family was so grateful because we had the opportunity to leave Iran. So I was seven.
Shima Baughman:We we left Iran. We immigrated to The US. And within six months of that, my family found the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saint and joined the church. And we were planning on going back, we were only supposed to be here for one year, but because of my mom's assistant to join the church, we decided to stay in America. And that really kind of fundamentally changed our lives, because we were able to have all sorts of freedoms that we didn't have in Iran.
Shima Baughman:We were able to fulfill the measure of our creation in all the best ways. Didn't have to be a doctor, right? Even though my parents still wanted me to be a doctor. My sister and I became lawyers. One of my sisters is a doctor, another is now a pharmacist.
Shima Baughman:But we got to choose all those things. And it was because we ended up joining the church and also coming to this land, which as you all know, you go to American Heritage, you know this it's a blessed land, it's a promised land, it's a covenant land, it's a beautiful free place where we get to have this liberty that we don't in my country in Iran. So I'm so grateful to have that, to be able to practice all the gifts my heavenly father has blessed me with. And living here, I I get to do that. And so that's really such an important value to me, this divine identity.
Eduardo:Yeah. Recently, you gave a talk at BYU, and it's called giving all our hearts to Christ. And I listened to it, and I really liked. You named five laws, law of obedience, law of sacrifice, gospel, chastity, and consecration.
Shima Baughman:Yes.
Eduardo:And you were talking about a band. I don't remember their name.
Shima Baughman:Van Halen. Yeah. Van Halen.
Eduardo:And Do you want me
Shima Baughman:to tell the story to your classmates who haven't listened to it? No. You tell me. Go ahead. Ask me a question.
Eduardo:And so I really liked how you connected that to them because the contractor on the contract, it says that there could be no Brian M and M. Yes. And how I took it was that they did that. That way they could see if their contractor was trustworthy to see if everything was maintained because of such a specific thing.
Shima Baughman:Mhmm.
Eduardo:So obedience, sacrifice, gospel, chastity, consecration, you connected it to that. Mhmm. And I feel like that leads up to a trustworthy person that we should
Shima Baughman:look for personally. So good.
Eduardo:So if you like, you expand on that? And, yeah, you could also tell the story.
Shima Baughman:So I told this story in talking about the law of obedience. And there's a famous old band in the seventies called Van Halen. A little bit before my time, but you wouldn't might not won't think that, but it's true. They had this these crazy shows, you guys. So, they had like pyrotechnics.
Shima Baughman:They'd have fire. They would be like stage diving. They'd have all this crazy stuff and they had this this infamous contract, right? In article one twenty six of this contract, right? It was many articles which means like articles are like things, you know, like just kind of points of the contract.
Shima Baughman:So, it was like pages and pages and pages. It said in there, there should be no brown M and M's in the backstage area But it the whole contract in article one hunt one to one twenty five had all these other things like we need these safety checks. We need these ropes checked. We need you know, all these things. And for many years while they were performing oh, I forgot to tell you the important part.
Shima Baughman:So 01/26, it said, there will be no brown M and M's upon paying a forfeiture of the show with basically all your money lost, which basically meant if they went to a venue to have a concert and they saw any brown M and M's in the bowl of candy in the back, they would just quit, cancel a show, and walk out. And they did it so much that people thought they were like prima donnas. Like who are these people? They like cancel a show because we have brown M and M's in the back? But what happened was they revealed this like really kind of clever purpose they had because they had this contract with a million terms of safety that kept the band safe.
Shima Baughman:If they walked in and they saw that they didn't follow article 126, which is no Brown M and M's, They knew that they can't be sure that they followed all these other things in the contract, right? And so that's why they had it. It was so clever and they never told people why because they didn't want to tell them why because then everybody would just pick out the brown M and M's but they wouldn't do all the safety checks for the fire and for the stage diving and all the crazy stuff they would do. And so for many years they would just cancel these shows and people were like these guys are jerks. But years later when they stopped performing they were like we did that as a show of you were obedient to our contract.
Shima Baughman:And so I kind of tied that in my devotional to how are we obedient to the laws of God? And what are the brown M and M's in our backstage areas in our lives where we're not being as obedient as we could be to God and his commandments. And some of the ones you might think of, like, there's silly things. A friend of mine that watched my devotional was like, I'm going to send it to some friends that, you know, where people sometimes think like, Okay, drinking coffee. Like, it doesn't seem like a huge thing.
Shima Baughman:Right? It's like, well, some people say it's healthy and something. And we know it's not. But but it's it's a smaller sin than, say, like, murder or something, you know, bigger than that. But it's like those little sins.
Shima Baughman:Right? Those small sins. Like, you drink a sip of coffee, you're just showing god, like, I I'm gonna pick and choose your commandments. I'm not gonna fully be all in on all your commandments and so the, yeah, I was trying to encourage the BYU students, you know, what what are those little things that we're just like, oh, god doesn't care that much about because we know he sees and he knows all the things we do which isn't intimidating because he also allows us to repent of everything. So, no big deal but if we're kind of purposely not doing things that could make us more obedient, that's where I think we can get into trouble because then it's well, what sins do we allow and what sins do we not allow?
Shima Baughman:You can kinda justify a lot of things.
Morgan:So Yeah.
Shima Baughman:Yeah. Yeah. You like brown M and M's or is that not your Yeah. Not your favorite?
Eduardo:At the start of the talk, talking about the law of obedience, the first law. And Yeah. You were speaking that you wanted to be a well, your father was a Yes. Brain surgeon.
Morgan:Mhmm.
Eduardo:And you wanted to be a heart surgeon.
Shima Baughman:Yeah.
Eduardo:And you explained how your older sister was the favorite, and she was always talking to you like, no. The the brain's more important. And you were saying that the heart pumps blood to everywhere. Yeah. And so you said that our hearts are made to pump blood twenty four seven.
Eduardo:I like how you connected Jesus Christ's painting Yeah. Paintings, all of them
Shima Baughman:Yeah.
Eduardo:Of him holding a heart. Yeah. And you connected that to Jesus being our heart pumping, and it pumps, like, our spiritual growth,
Morgan:basically.
Eduardo:And so I just wondered if you could also expand
Shima Baughman:on that. That. Of course. I love to. So what what I did was I basically do you guys ever have arguments with your siblings?
Shima Baughman:Raise your hand if you like have maybe you're not as nerdy as me. Okay. We all do. Maybe you're not as nerdy as me me and my sister, but one argument. And I didn't tell her about this talk because I was hoping she would be there, but she wasn't.
Shima Baughman:But I told her after. And after my devotional, she was like, okay. You win. The heart's more important. But it was more of our our kind of fight growing up was like, what's more important, the heart or the brain?
Shima Baughman:Obviously, they're most they're both important. But, you know, when you're young, you, like, fight with your siblings about silly things. Yeah. So, anyway, we're fighting about this. But as I was thinking about the heart and the organ, I don't know if you guys have learned this stuff in biology yet, but it's the organ that cleanses your blood.
Shima Baughman:Right? So all your dirty blood goes in there. It's like a pump. It pumps it clean, and then it sends it to all your organs. And then as I was thinking about the heart, I thought, well, isn't that kind of like Jesus Christ?
Shima Baughman:Right? Isn't Christ the way that we cleanse our sins? And I like the heart as an as symbol because what we've been talking about have you guys ever heard the concept of daily repentance before? Anyone heard of that? That's like something we've been talking about a lot more now because I think people used to think, oh, well, you just go to church on Sunday, and when you take the sacrament, you repent.
Shima Baughman:And that's like one and done. Right? But now I think the prophet has really been teaching us like, no, it's daily repentance. Like, you can repent right away from sins. And so that's kind of what I was saying is, like, your heart doesn't cleanse your blood once a week.
Shima Baughman:It cleanses your blood every second. Actually, 60 to a hundred times per minute, it beats and cleanses your blood. Like, why you're not even paying attention? It's cleaning you. And that's, I think, how the atonement is.
Shima Baughman:And and I, you know, I analogize it because I'm like, well, your heart cleans everybody's blood regardless of what you put in your body. Say you're taking drugs or drinking alcohol or doing horrible things to your body, your blood still is there cleaning. With Jesus, he's also there. He's cleansed everyone of sin. But with him, we do have to choose to accept his atonement.
Shima Baughman:We have to choose to be baptized and and allow him to atone for our sins. But his gift is for all of us, even those of us that have committed the worst crimes. Like, I work with people that have committed the worst crimes. But many of them, you know, through permission with the church, which the church loves to give them permission, they're able to, after lots of repentance, get back on track. So even though the worst of sins can be cleansed through Jesus Christ.
Shima Baughman:And so that's why I love the heart as that because you can think of it. The other thing I said in the devotional is, like, when you put your hand on your heart, like, you can feel your heart beating, and it's a good reminder of our savior also always being there. So if you ever feel like, I'm lost. I'm alone. I feel, like, scared.
Shima Baughman:Like, sometimes that does calm you down to, like, feel your heart beating and think of your savior because he's also always there with you. But it's kinda like a physical reminder. So to me, the heart really represents the savior, and that's why there's so much art. I posted a lot of, like, old medieval art where they would hold show the savior holding a human heart because I think other people might have connected, like, he is our heart. That's what I think.
Shima Baughman:Yeah. Really like that. Oh, thanks.
Morgan:How could a high school student begin to explore a profession in law?
Shima Baughman:Oh that's such a good question. Okay so I talked to a lot of students about law, mostly college students, but if you're in high school, first of all don't cancel it out because I I kind of cancelled it out because I thought it's like you had to do like debating and doing moot court and I didn't love that stuff in high school So don't feel like if you're not interested in that, that's not for you. Kind of be open to it, I think, you know, to begin exploring it, you might just kind of try to develop your writing. So if you like writing on your own, kind of keep doing that. Any kind of writing skills really will help you in law.
Shima Baughman:If you like debate though or moot like mock trial and do you guys have that stuff? I feel like you do have a mock trial. Yeah. Those of you that do it, that's a really good way to prepare yourself. Although, even again, like I said, even if you don't want to be in a courtroom and argue cases, there's a lot of room for law.
Shima Baughman:If you want to do business, if you think that's what you want do, having a law degree is useful for that. Some people get like a JDs, which is what I have, Juris Doctorate, and an MBA. It's like a business degree. You can get both if you want to kind of be all well equipped in the business world. But, I think, you know, working on your writing skills, thinking about debate.
Shima Baughman:There's a really good book called Just Mercy. His name is Brian Stevenson. He wrote about that. If you're interested in kind of learning more broadly about criminal law and the stuff I do, that's a good book for you. He spoke at BYU's devotional.
Shima Baughman:You can also look that one up. But Brian Stevenson wrote Just Mercy. And you don't need to watch True Crime if you don't like that. I think I don't I I often recommend it. I think it's a little dark.
Morgan:Are there any other interests or skills that would be helpful to develop?
Shima Baughman:I think acting. Some of you might be in school plays. And ironically, think being a good actor, just being able to present yourself like this in this class. You're learning how to podcast, you're learning how to ask questions, you're learning how to articulate well. I was really bad at this.
Shima Baughman:I remember in high school, one of my comments on my student or teacher evaluations was like, she needs to practice reading aloud in class because I just I guess I just stumbled over my words in high school. So there's there's hope. Even if you feel like you're not the most articulate now, you can get there. But I think with practice on articulating acting, some of the best trial attorneys that win these trials, they win the jurors over, they're actors because they know how to work a crowd. So even some, like, weird skills like acting would be helpful to, be a good lawyer.
Shima Baughman:Nice.
Eduardo:Yeah. That's that's really cool. We ask every person we interview to share a joke
Shima Baughman:with
Eduardo:us.
Shima Baughman:I have three. Is that okay? They're just short ones. Is that okay? Okay.
Shima Baughman:Alright. Why did the lawyer sleep through trial?
Eduardo:Why?
Shima Baughman:Why? Because he thought it was arrest my case. Okay. Why don't criminals ever read legal textbooks? Why?
Shima Baughman:Because they know they'll get booked anyway. Okay. Last one. Why did the burglar take a shower before the heist?
Eduardo:Why? He wanted
Shima Baughman:to make a clean getaway. Who said that? Let's go. Because he wanted to make a clean getaway. Okay.
Shima Baughman:That's it. See? Good job.
Morgan:Wow. Well, thank you, missus Waffman, for taking the time to sit down with us.
Shima Baughman:Yeah. Thank you.
Eduardo:Thank you.
Shima Baughman:It's a pleasure. You guys are so smart, and your whole class is so engaged. So thank you so much.
Morgan:We hope you enjoyed listening to our podcast.
Eduardo:Special thanks to our guest today.
Shima Baughman:Our music was generously provided by the Lyceum Orchestra.
Eduardo:That's it for American Heritage School Patriot Podcast.
Morgan:See you next time.