Today’s Gender Is Up for Debate

We take a bite out of “the gender debate” with sports journalist Katie Barnes (they/them). 

We reminisce about our days as student leaders at gay camp, how Katie’s educational background in history, higher education, and even Russian studies has positioned them to be a leading reporter at/on the intersection of sports and gender, and the release of their new book “Fair Play: How Sports Shape the Gender Debate” 

Join us in Lexington, Kentucky November 3-5 for the Midwest Bisexual Lesbian Gay Transgender Asexual College Conference featuring Katie Barnes as Keynote. Register and make arrangements at mblgtacc.org 

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Creators & Guests

Host

R.B. Brooks

Director of Programs, Midwest Institute for Sexuality and Gender Diversity

Producer

Justin Drwencke

Executive Director, Midwest Institute for Sexuality and Gender Diversity

What is Take the Last Bite?

Take the Last Bite is a direct counter to the Midwest Nice mentality— highlighting advocacy & activism by queer/trans communities in the Midwest region. Each episode unearths the often disregarded and unacknowledged contributions of queer & trans folks to social change through interviews, casual conversations and reflections on Midwest queer time, space, and place.

For questions, comments and feedback: [e-mail]

To support this podcast and the Institute, please visit sgdinstitute.org/giving

Host: R.B. Brooks, they/them, director of programs for the Midwest Institute for Sexuality & Gender Diversity

Cover Art: Adrienne McCormick

RB:
Hey, hi,hello y'all, this is R.B., your Midwest Grand Marshal, welcoming you to another episode AND the Season Four Finale of Take the Last Bite, a show where we take Midwest Nice trick-or-treating but only to houses that give out apples and those stale popcorn balls.

On today’s episode I hang out with an awesome friend I met at gay camp, but before we get to that I wanna do a season four recap as we close out this year of incredible conversations with Midwest masterminds.

We kicked off the season talking to modern-day cartographer Charlie Sprinkman, who created Everywhere is Queer– an international online map of LGBTQ+ businesses; on episode two we dived into the depths of the documentary “Diving for Rays: A Queer Conservationist’s Story” with producers and muses Nicole Morris, Nova West, and Angel Morris; during episode three, myself and my Midwest Institute co-conspirator’s Justin & Danielle tackled queer tropes and stereotypes; episode four was an epic look at The Golden Era of Queer Comics with Amara Vear aka the Queer Comic Peddler; episode five was a culinary dream as I got to hang out with The Big Brunch cheftestant Catie Randazzo; for episode six, we revisited our Trangender Justice Teach-In topic Trans Fat: Lessons from Large Trans and Nonbinary Folks; I offered a reflection on my time spent in a liberatory think tank on episode seven; Google Doodle artist Sienna Gonzales joined me as we honored the legacy of Indigenous lesbian activist Barbara May Cameron on episode eight; Black queer nurse Britney Daniels checked the pulse of affirming healthcare during episode nine; Midwest Institute resident nerds Andy and Michelle talked highs and lows of recent queer animation on episode ten; and Cody Daigle-Orians aka Ace Dad Advice shared their aspirations for intergenerational asexual education on epsiode eleven.

I can’t help but smile just thinking about the magic and meaning and modeling displayed in this lineup of conversations with folks who are contributing to this constellation of Midwest movement work– through art, film, education, healthcare, food, maps, comics, and more. This podcast project has always been about unveiling what we’ve always known to be true, that behind the misperception of the Midwest as a whitewashed wasteland of conservative values and fields of corn as far as the eye can see– that there’s also an intricate array of communities yearning for legibility, to be seen. And I hope that the avenues we’ve ventured down this season spotlight the counternarratives that are abundant in this region.

Because it is these narratives, these stories of challenging the whiteness, the alleged scarcity of resources, the presumption of political leanings, it is these conversations that lead us to a more robust understanding of the systems, structures, and policies that impede our lives.

I’m in awe that what started in 2020 as a means to keep alive the work of the Institute, to create community and offer education during a global lockdown at the onset of the pandemic, has now become an oral history of Midwest queer and trans knowledge, experiences and liberation. As we wrap up season four, and look ahead to what’s next, I’m eager to continue archiving what for too long has been the unseen and undervalued demonstrations of liberatory frameworks present in the Midwest and use this platform to address the manufactured geographical barriers that keep us in the shadows of this work and move toward meaningful solutions and critical connections.

Today’s guest is all about telling important stories and using a platform to hold space for narratives on the margins. Katie Barnes is a dear friend and unstoppable force in the field of journalism. They are a feature writer with ESPN, focusing extensively on the experiences of trans athletes and gender equity in sports overall. Their new book Fair Play: How Sports Shape the Gender Debate drops TODAY September 19 2023. And I’m also thrilled to announce that Katie Barnes will be joining us as one of two keynotes at this year’s Midwest Bisexual Lesbian Gay Transgender Asexual College Conference. So if you wanna witness Katie’s brilliance in-person, make your arrangements for Nov. 3-5 in Lexington, Kentucky. More details can be found at mblgtacc.org

A final thanks to all the listeners who’ve come along for this wild ride and all the guests who’ve shared their wisdom with whoever will listen. Stay tuned for more information about a live show and the kick-off of season five, cuz we’re not going anywhere!

It’s time to root for the home team… on this season finale of Take the Last Bite

[INTRO MUSIC PLAYING]

Why can't we be in space with hundreds of other queer and trans folks and having these necessary conversations?

When it comes to dynamics around privilege and oppression, and around identity. Well intentioned isn’t actually good enough.

How far is too far to drive for a drag show? I don’t know, we’re in Duluth right now, I would straight up go to Nebraska, probably,

If you are not vibing, or something’s not right, or also like there’s an irreparable rupture, you have absolutely every right to walk away.

Definitely going to talk about Midwest Nice and if that's as real as it wants to think it is.

Midwest nice is white aggression. That's what it is.

[END MUSIC]
RB:
All right, fam, I'm super hyped about this. I basically predicated my entire publishing schedule off of making sure that we could have this chat published on a specific day. So you have been like the centrifuge and guiding light of this entire publication schedule for season four. You're welcome.

Katie:
It's like, well, you know me so. Well, so you know that I'm thrilled about that.

RB:
Exactly, exactly. So let's go ahead and let's do a quick intro, and if you could include and it will intro, what is your relationship to the?

Katie:
My name is Katie Barnes. I use they them pronouns. I am a long form feature writer at ESPN and the author of a book called Fair Play, How Sports Shaped the Gender debates. And my relationship to the Midwest is that it is where I grew up and spent all of my life until I moved for my. Job eight years. So. So I grew up in Indiana. I went to College in Minnesota and grad school in Ohio. So pretty Midwestern.

RB:
Very, very Midwestern. We've known I I did the math. I felt like I had to do the math before we hopped on here. You're welcome. I know we're going to. We're going to feel really old for two point. 5 seconds. I think it's been. 10 years. Pretty sure 20/13/2014.

Katie:
About yeah.

RB:
As queer college students go into this low, low event called Camp Ride and we didn't like each other, actually, from what I recall, we were not just, the vibe was not there. Fast forward 10 years later. That has changed, obviously. Otherwise this probably wouldn't be happening, but the. Way in which I think we entered into each other's ecosystem, was very much about. Being very engaged, college students, being very attentive college students, I don't know. If maybe that's how you feel about your let's. Say see your face but. Being very involved, college students paying attention to kind of the the gaps for queer and trans students on our respective campuses. I being in. Kansas City at the time you would have been. In in Minnesota, at the.

Katie:
Time when you went to camp or.

RB:
Were you in Ohio by then?

Katie:
By the time you and I met, I think we didn't meet until they actually meet me. Until 2014 camp got it. But I hadn't. We had been aware of each. Other as campers in 2013 and. From mobile tech just generally I think so I. But when we actually met, I would have been between grad school years in Ohio.

RB:
Got you.

Katie:
And because you're both on staff as camp leaders.

RB:
That's true. Yeah, so. You had been in Ohio. I was coming home. Design canvas by then, who knows? Who knows? I think I might have actually been right between. This probably doesn't matter, but the point of this right origins in student leadership, Ohio based queer and Trans college students coming to this space, which in some ways I think lays the foundation for understanding. Like what is the experience of LGBTQ youth? And I would wager the guest has informed a lot of what? You in your daily life and very much what I do with someone who stuck it out in higher education. For better or. For worse, and I'm still doing the higher education route someone has to. I know it's me for now. And so I I think I I start there just to name that like.

Katie:
Somebody has to.

RB:
The ways that. I know and have witnessed you move in your like like your work now in at ESPN doing your investigative style work, long form work, I think. Starts there, but probably. Starts even earlier than that, knowing that. You were also. Someone who was in sport, which I think. Is a big. Big part of your daily life like it is part and parcel of what you do. So can we zoom back even further? Before I had any sense that Katie Barnes existed in the world to like your relationship with sports? Maybe how that has intertwined at all with like emerging into your queer and trans experiences? What has that kind of little young Katie trajectory look?

Katie:
Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting because I grew up playing sports. I played basketball primarily. I started playing, you know, competitive, like organized basketball. When I was 8 years old. And and I played soccer as well. And, you know, I did T-ball for, like, 2 years. But like sports was. A huge part of my upbringing, both as somebody who played but then also, as you know, a fan or spectator like my family, was the kind of family where after church, sure we go to the pot luck. But kickoff was at one, and it didn't matter who was playing we. Your home, you know, like every Sunday we would have frozen pizza in the living room. It was a picnic and like, so we could watch the Sunday. Night game like that was the. Bot yeah, to this day I still have frozen pizza on Sunday nights because football. It's very important. Words has just. Been like I can't remember my life without. About it, you know, like I remember going to WNBA games with my dad and, you know, watching soccer with my dad and football with both my parents and like, it was just a huge part. Of my life and. And what's so interesting is like. You know I. Definitely used sports, especially basketball, as like a way. To express myself more masculinely when I was. Younger, you know like. Being this like gender bending clear kid and Indiana and like middle of nowhere Indiana, like I did not grow up in Indianapolis like my hometown's 1400 people. Like, let's be very clear about that.

RB:
Oh wow.

Katie:
Yeah, very small. And so, you know, I. Was a tomboy. And like I just was never comfortable. Feminine clothing at all and my parents, you know, were very encouraging and supportive. My mother just requested that perhaps I wear less red and black. Like it's open the color palette. But like, they let me shop in the boys section. And, you know, my mom asked me to wear a dress on Easter Sunday and like, that was it. And I thought that was a perfectly fine. Deal. I was like all. Right. And I had my special dress for Easter Sunday, and that's what I wore. You know, and so. Like basketball for me was a place where I could wear a cut off T-shirt. And it wasn't weird. I could wear baggy shorts and that wasn't something that people really got on me about. It was a place where I could express myself in terms of how I felt from a gender expression perspective. Without dealing with, you know, the policing of my peers and and that policing came from my peers, it never came from my family and so. You know, I came out as queer bisexual specifically when I was 16 years old and I fell in love on the Internet, which is a very gay story for another time. It happened. And you know, as I went to college and like, really got involved in student leadership, my.

RB:
Thank you.

Katie:
I went to a small school. I went. To Saint Olaf College in. Soda and not a big sports school, you know, big nerd school. And so the fact that I love sports was like a weird thing. And my leadership as a clear student was kind of separate from my sports life. Like, I coached in town. During my sophomore and junior years at a small Catholic school, so I was in the closet during that time off campus, which is a very strange experience. And then I coached freshman high school girls basketball my senior year of of Con. And I could. Be a little bit more out then, but I wasn't. Super out. Again, off campus on campus, very out, obviously. And so I was kind of juggling. Those things like it. Was a separate. Sort of world like. I didn't like my clear organizing had nothing to do with sports and my sports life had, like, nothing to do with what I was doing as a queer organizer on campus, and it really wasn't until grad school that I was like. Why am I not like doing both of these things? I don't understand. And so I went to the LGBT sports summit this summer between grad school years summer of 2014. And that kind of changed the trajectory of my life. I started writing soon after that I had a sports and pop culture column at feministing.com beginning in, like, February of 2015. I decided not to go into higher Ed. But like, I didn't think I was going to be.

RB:
A writer, yeah.

Katie:
Like it wasn't the thing I was just like. I don't want to do this like that's it's just not for me and. And so I was like, oh, well, I'll probably go into comps like, I really thought that I was like patients like Nike or something. And so after grad school, I like went on A50 state LGBT food. Tour went to 30 states in two months and the cold applied to a job at ESPN and they took me. It's that simple. And then I it was like a year long fellowship that was rotational. Again, it wasn't a foregone conclusion that I would. To come. A writer, but I was hired out of that as a staff writer for ESPN W primarily on the back of, like, cultural analysis. The kinds of things that. I think about. As a queer and trans person and as like, you know, a biracial person, and the intersection of all of those things, like how I approach sports, how I think about sports, I think about my own experiences. And and that, you know, I was given an opportunity to sort of develop as a feature writer and that's I guess the rest of history. It's like a wild story. It's a.

RB:
I know it is and I I remember details of the story like as it has played out over the years and just like you've kind of named that element of surprise throughout this entire progression and you just kind of I'm not going to say looking into because you're very talented and just like you know very a focused person on like I. Want to do this? And then you saunter off and you do that thing like just very seamlessly. They're very jealous.

Katie:
But Luck is an important part like. Timing is important. The path that I took. To get to ESPN and to flourish at. ESPN is no longer avail. Reliable and like and it pretty much disappeared within two years of me getting there. So like and and not just the program that hired me, but ESPNW at the time, was its own stand alone website with its own content, in a way that doesn't exist currently. Doesn't mean that the. Coverage of women's sports doesn't. Exist. It does, but like I wrote about American Ninja Warrior for like a year. And like I couldn't do that. Now you know, like I wrote a ton about stunt double s and you know, pop culture and TV and movies. Like, I got to do a lot of that stuff at the time. ESPN as an entity was more pop culture driven. And over time, it's become much more focused on like.

RB:
OK.

Katie:
And I see sports betting, ******** trades, you know. Transactions like really ******** sports information and so some of those softer things that I was able to do. And where I was able to grow and develop just it simply does not exist. You know, so that's just sort of an. Interesting thing like timing. Does have a lot to do with? It for sure.

RB:
Right. Which I guess is a bummer to hear because I think like again this element of. Excellent timing, kind of just going through something and then getting, you know, embraced in that way. I think that it's very. Interesting, because there's things from, like your educational background, for example, that have come up in valuable ways in your writing. I think one of those prime items is that you studied Russian history in undergrad and so then to be able to speak on Britney Griner's scenario of being entrapped. In Russia, as a queer person of color, right, like who best to speak on that than a queer person of color who studied Russian history like Ello? Like you could not be better equipped to speak on such a ****** ** situation. Quite frankly, right. Like how your other educational background and experiences have fed into kind of the lens. Able to bring to something that otherwise was reported in a very matter of fact way.

Katie:
Yeah, well, I think I see that in so many areas of what it is I cover like, you know, having a degree in higher education and just being able to understand how colleges work. Like that is a thing that not everybody. Dan, can we understand how how like Power 5 conference athletics work, but like to understand how institutions of higher education work separately? From those systems.

RB:
Right.

Katie:
And also how those systems relate to these other? Systems that are going on. Like that I think is is something that I bring. And with that. Comes like, you know, foundational knowledge or Title 9 that a lot of people. Don't have and like the understanding of kind of like the ongoing conversations about Title 9 and how that is was playing out on college campuses in the mid to late teens and how that has changed and and you know all of a sudden I was like a title nine person.

RB:
Right.

Katie:
And I was like, I didn't know that was going to be a. Thing but it. Has been and I, you know, really credit. You know, my graduate degree for some. With that, but then you know I look at, yes, you know history, Russian studies and American studies where my college majors and like, those are all research and analysis driven majors and that's all I do. I research things, I analyze them and I synthesize ideas. And sometimes I make an argument. Like it's that simple. It's just reporting and so. You know whether I am. You know, operating in a space where I'm thinking about an idea like, you know, some kind of like cultural, like marination on, you know, sports and gender, right, which I think is like where I have lived for much of my career. But then thinking about, like, how race plays a role, how how those things plug into pop culture. How those references can help explain the world that we see around us, like all of that is just, you know, the foundational education that I got at Saint Olaf based on what I studied and and then, you know, I think like. Like the work I did in grad school that really has applied well and the organizing work I did in undergrad too to like the behind the scenes stuff I do in our employee resources group or resource groups at the Walt Disney Company and ESPN, you know, like ARG's are just like your college student groups. They're just. To corporations, it's the same thing. And so whether it's programming or providing feedback on content, you know, like I'm on the inclusive content Committee, I'm an ESPN equal on our leadership team. You know, all those sorts of things. That's all stuff that. I've been doing. Forever. It's just in a different setting and so being able to apply that.

RB:
Right.

Katie:
Knowledge. I think it's also something that's helpful in terms of thinking about like what my career has looked like and why I've been successful is that there are a ton of people that are. Sitting one at the intersection that I sit at 2 doing the work that I do, both in terms of the content that I create and. The beats that. I cover but then also what I do behind the scenes to support our diversity, inclusion, work and belonging work, we say belonging that we've gave me a real laugh. Oh, I know. I was like ohh. You know, but all of that sort of stuff.

RB:
Student development theory 101.

Katie:
One yeah, you know, like I was. You know like.

RB:
Like ohh fringe way.

Katie:
I was like, oh, I did that I was. And so all of those are important conversations and like my education background, get equipped me to have those conversations in meaningful ways, so.

RB:
You spoke to this a bit kind of talking about like the trajectory of kind of stepping into ESPN, what you were kind of the lion share of what you were writing when you got the right pop culture stunt stunt double s. I remember you doing. Was it like a 10 year commemorative piece for bend it like Beckham? I remember you working on that. Was it 10?

Katie:
Yeah, it's, it's it's it's 15.

RB:
15 Yeah, so those kind of pieces were kind of your bread and butter for a while and it's been what, how many? Years with ESPN. More than five. Eight how in the? World. Well, I have no concept of time. Trash. OK, So what? I was gonna name right 8. Years later, right, you have largely emerged as someone who is in that exact niche, an area of speaking on school and gender, speaking on Title 9, right and being kind of this. You're in high demand. Like I I remember texting you. I was like, so I see you on all these other podcasts. Let's go. Come on. Like you are in high demand. And it's for a reason. Because there is this kind of. In a large way of folks equipped and positioned to speak in a particular way on this and it's from the lens of a history of gender. Barriers in sports, and I think I I would wager a guess that this kind of. Emergence and what has unfolded draws back to one of your biggest pieces. That kind of I I would wait for. We'll talk about this opened up quite a few pathways for you to become kind of this, know how positioned expert in this way. In 2018, with your very lengthy piece that I know took, you know, a long time called they are champions. So can we speak on that piece of bit of just like what all went into that piece a quick maybe just blip overview of what was going on in that and how that has kind of springboarded some of your work since then?

Katie:
Yeah. So they're the Champions Chronicles. The story of two high school transgender. Leads one Mac Beggs, who is a wrestler in Texas who won back-to-back World State Championships and as a transgender boy, the other being Andrea Yearwood, who was a runner, actually competed from 2017 to 2020 in the Girls category and track and field. In the state of Connecticut, she's a black transgender woman now. But at the time, you know, I think when I first started following Andrea, she was 14 and Mack was graduating from high school. When this came out. But I spent, you know, the better part of a year chronically, both of them and a year before that actually looking for a transgender athlete in Texas specifically. Yeah. So in February of 2016, there was a policy change that was covered by the local media and it was just policy. It was law at this time that defined gender eligibility for various sex separation sports as being determined. By birth certificate. And it seemed that it was being framed as something that specifically was looking to target transgender athletes. And and I remember being like, OK, well, it's Texas. There's a lot of people in Texas. Somebody is trans and playing sports, and I wanted to explore that. And I was still so new on staff. I think that's something that.

RB:
Right.

Katie:
People kind of forget. And so when this piece came out in May of 2018, was my first story that went into ESPN the magazine RP and and. And it was my first like long form feature. I mean it was about 4000 words when it ran, it was technically a very hard piece to write. And I really thought that it was going to be a one off when I didn't think that this was going to be my professional life. And then, you know, after that. Came a documentary on Mac called Back Russell's, which is a documentary short that is available in the C Plus if you're. Curious why did I do that? Yeah. Yeah, it's on Disney plus and ESPN plus and then. OK. You just became this thing like, you know, pretty soon after that piece public. Because the way that it was situated was like Mac was experiencing, really, the weight of state attention at that time, which was true, and Andrea was running in Connecticut at that time. Her freshman year really kind of without incident like. There were some, like New England, dislike style, people being disgruntled. But it was whispers that people weren't upset and yelling at her. It was happening kind of behind the scenes. It was kind of bubbling, but like, you know, yes, she won the small school state championship, but she did not win either state championship in the state open or I think it might have been different had she won that year and she. Could not, but then that piece closes with Terry Miller starting to run to who's another transgender girl who began running in the girls category her sophomore year, as well as Andrea sophomore year. And that was where things really took a turn in Andrea's story specifically. And with Connecticut in general. And so almost. Immediately after this this story published, I was like, I've got to go back to Andrea because this. Stuff is happening. And I just kind of buckled in along for the ride and it led to multiple pieces. It led to the book that just that will be coming out in. September and all of those things. So it's it ended up being a career defining piece it was.

RB:
A big deal piece and I I think what I you know recognize out of it too is that it was this. Very important combination of like anecdote and personal story from the athletes you. Hope to it's a very you named as a technically difficult piece I'm assuming and we could probably make an educated guess that it was probably a personally complex piece to write just based on your personal attachment to some of the story, and then some of the. I vaguely remember you might have to just kind of like reframe it refresh, but I I vaguely remember. At that time when you were working on the piece or maybe a related piece talking to a Texas administrator who like was very, very anti trans generally speaking. And do I have that generally right and like having to have certain conversations with folks who were on the side of, no, we don't want trans athletes playing sports in our state. I vaguely remember and like also again speaking to your student affairs background, even knowing who to ask or who to reach out to at a like administrative level at a school to even ask those questions that you asked.

Katie:
Yeah, I mean. That's the thing I think about sitting in this space in general is. And I think that's reflected in fair play too. Is for me journalistically. I think it's incredibly important to talk to all person like to gather as many perspectives as possible and to talk to all relevant parties and and I think the interview you're actually thinking about in both the Texas. Leader and yeah. And so you know, that person wrote the bill, and I was like, well, I've got to talk to the person. That's writing bills and, you know. Yeah, those things. Those are hard conversations sometimes for me on a personal level, but professionally, I think it's necessary. I think it's really important. In terms of telling a full story around what is going on and the best possible way to do that is to have is to have people. Share their perspectives and viewpoints and present those in context and you know, I think examine them with all. Examine all of those perspectives with similar similar levels of of veracity. You know, I don't let folks who perhaps share some opinions that I. Of get away with spin, you're just as I don't let folks who I don't necessarily share the same opinions as get away with spin. I think that's really important. My greatest fielty is to truth and accuracy and fairness in general and storytelling. And so that's what I pursue. Pretty relentlessly. Not everybody loves that, but it. Is the truth.

RB:
I anticipate that's extra important for you. As someone who has personal stake in some of this narrative and some of the storytelling in that, as someone who is trained in journalism but isn't actively well, I guess that's not true. I'm doing journalism. Right now or? My podcast doesn't have to. Play that same line of kind of adding all of those elements of every every position, every viewpoint, in a way that I've seen you very tactfully navigate. It's in a lot of your reporting and a lot of other, you know, interviews that I've seen you in. And I know that I am not the person to do that. So I'm glad you can. Be I'm glad you can be there because I'm just like I don't want to talk to the opposition, but like you truly have to to your point. Kind of craft the full context and circumstance of a given matter, especially when it comes to gender equity and sport, trans equity and sports, and all of the interrelated content that you covered.

Katie:
Yeah, and I think. You know, it's interesting because like. I don't know. For me, desire like, do I want to do that is an interesting question. I feel very duty bound to doing it and it's a choice that I make, right? Like nobody at ESPN makes me write the stories that I write. I pitch every single one of them. And like I believe in the approach and I think it's incredibly important because I, I do think like there's a place for everything, right, like we have echo chamber style media for various perspectives, whatever your opinion is, you can find something that. You know, services that opinion and that viewpoint and and I think those spaces are important sometimes it's just nice. To preach to the choir. I get it, I do it. Like, that's for me. That's what group chats are for. Right? Or like, phone calls with friends. Like. But sometimes I just need, like, a viewpoint hook. Right. You just want to be with your people. You wanna sit? You know, it's like you wanna sit in. It with your people. I get it, I'm all. For it and also for me. As a journalist both for yes, the mainstream sports outlet, but also in terms of thinking about. What is my book on the topic? Going to say. It's not that it's devoid of perspective and in fair play. I do give my opinion, which will shock no one. What I what I think I think. Like I've said. It in different ways over the years. And, but it's also incredibly measured. And that's also what I believe. And that's from spending years sitting in this place and absorbing the perspectives of so many different people and sometimes. That is really hard. There have been times where. I personally was very challenged by what was happening in the world in terms of attacks on queer and trans people and and from a variety of. Like from a variety of angles, right? Whether talking about legislatively or we're talking about violently in terms of hate crimes and shootings and or just like the language that is used, right? Like anyone who is a member of our community. In the past few years, I'm sure has felt similarly to the way that I have felt in terms of just being afraid at times of not always feeling safe of being deeply concerned, right, like separate from what I think journalistically, and the stories that I tell just how I feel as a queer and trans person course. I share many of those perspectives and that is hard, and that affects sometimes how I'm able to do my work. Or how I feel while? Doing my work, there have been challenging moments, but ultimately. I just I believe very strongly in if somebody wrote a bill, I should go talk to them. You know, somebody's arguing in front of the Supreme Court. I'm going to talk to them. And that's my job. And if I and if for whatever reason, right, they won't talk to me anymore, then to me that signals is time for me to have. To do something different professionally and so relationship management is a really important part of that process and that's also very challenging at times. So it just it is what it is, but it's the the the product. That comes from that process is something of which I'm incredibly proud.

RB:
We talked about timing in a different way earlier in this chat and then thinking about timing in relation to. Kind of this premier piece. That we're talking about from May of 2018, which I think timing wise, right kind of just barely predates the ways that trans participation in sport has become the signature talking point of especially. You know, conservative politicians, but generally right? The general public has latched on to that. And I I think about it. From the perspective. Of like you and I being in approximate age and kind of growing into our queerness during a time when it was the bathroom bills that were kind of the top tier talking point, that was the way that, you know, trans, antagonistic. Viewpoints we're trying to lead us into some kind of incident against transients and it didn't look right like there was some, you know, there's definitely some bills passed, but ultimately enforcing who uses what bathrooms is more difficult than enforcing who gets to participate in sport. And so I know from my. Kind of bystander perspective, it's not a sports guy, but someone who has very much paid attention to something that you very clearly lay out in every capacity you can that. A lot of what is happening in sport lays groundwork for and framework for other types of trans anti trans legislation or anti trans movement. And so I think for you to have named something in that way with the peace in 2018 kind of was the. One of the earliest, I think captures of what now the general public is a bit more aware of is, oh, this is being weaponized in a very particular way because the bathroom bill talking point didn't work as well as our opposers thought it would. And that there's been I think, more traction, unfortunately. Around the sports debate, because of it being I think you named it as like a very sex segregated institution of sport and it's able to play out in a different way than. I think the bathroom bills of. You were trying to trying to conjure.

Katie:
Yeah, but I mean, what's so interesting is we've come full circle, right. Like we're seeing bathroom bills get brought up in States and pass again, we're seeing a discourse around locker rooms and bathrooms in particular at, you know, really take center stage to. Push like that type of legislation once again and the argument that I. Make in fair. Play that I really do stand behind is. That the proliferation of the bills, that and laws that restrict transgender girls in particular from their ability to participate in girls and women. 'S sports. The fact that those passed into law and went and have done so largely unchallenged, right, and to be clear, I don't just mean in. Terms of lawsuits. But I'll come back to that. But like the coalition that really took a stand when it came to North Carolina, passing HB 2, for example. Where we saw corporations, large scale sports. And major pop culture figures canceled concerts, conventions boycotting like the backlash was swift and overwhelming. And even though, like the repeal of HB2, when they passed, HB 142 did not do what many advocates had hoped, that it would do. Uhm, it staved off a similar bill from passing in Texas. You know, there were other bills that targeted the LGBTQ community from religious freedom perspective that failed in Georgia and where and that was amended in Indiana in 2015 because of a similar coalition coming out against these bills. And that response did not happen when Idaho passed HB. 500. Partially because it's probably Idaho, but still right. Like that did not happen when. Other states started considering sports bills, in particular whether it was Texas or, you know, Indiana or North Carolina, which is over, or Roy Cooper's veto, or Florida, which is one of the first big states to pass one of these. Into law. There was no public shaming in the. Same way that. 3rd with HB2 in 2016, and so these bills passed into the law pretty much unchallenged from that perspective. As that happened right, like. I think, and I think my reporting shows it, that the consequence of many of the sports ban, like the sports bills, just not being challenged from a public perspective. Was that open the door to other types of legislation to be filed and to be successful across the country, and that's when we saw the pivot to healthcare that has also been incredibly successful. But I don't think those bills become successful in the way that they have been. If the sports bills still pass. First, which is why it was so incredibly challenging. I think to watch the lack of movement response on the sports bills, it's pretty. I don't know. I like. I honestly don't. Have the words for it. And so like I understand now why there's been such a pivot to the healthcare bills because you know why focus all your energy on something that that generally affects just a few of like of people who are trans when healthcare affects almost everybody who's trans, right, like.

RB:
So I get that.

Katie:
And that's not my core criticism. It's that in 2020 and 2021, there was a window to have a formidable response from a movement perspective. And that did. Not happen and. And that's been really disappointing and. And so yeah, it's like it's a real bummer, but I think you know, when I look back at, they are the Champions. Where I watch Mack Russells, it's like looking into a time capsule. It feels like a completely different time. You know, 20/18 was 2 years before HB 500, and like the landscape was completely different, like Andrea Yearwood was, has been invoked in this fight all across the country by proponents of restrictive legislation. You know, I think a lot of people think about Leah Thomas. Now, because of how fake that story was.

RB:
I was just thinking.

Katie:
Right. But Leah Thomas didn't get into a pool on the women's team until the fall, like early winter of 2021 by that .9 states had already passed this type of legislation, and it was Andrea Yearwood and Terry Miller that they were talking about and. And in some cases, juniper Eastwood or C Telfer, but a lot of the bills originally really focused on school sports, and they invoked Andrea and Terry. And you know that to me is really interesting because, you know, I read that piece and I'm basically like, oh, yeah, right, it's fine. And not knowing what was going to happen in. The next three. Years and and and you know that kid shouldered A tremendous burden. And she's just out living her life like, just living her best life. She graduates from college next year. You know, it's pretty incredible. I'm so proud of her.

RB:
I'm just so stressed and pressed and unimpressed. At the moment. Not with that. That's great. Yay for graduating college, but everything you named I think just kind of showcases how. When given a little, the opposition takes a whole lot and they kind of getting this traction very easily by putting out talking points that can be Co signed onto by the general public. I'm doing air quotes, but like I think the Thomas was a prime example of that, like she was not the first, nor will she be the last person who. Draws some obscure ire and attention around the quote, UN quote, fairness of her participation, but I think that was an instance in which I saw way more folks on like my social media, for example, who generally. They weren't watching collegiate swimming at any point in time prior to that exact moment, but suddenly had this very explosive opinion about whether or not they thought it was appropriate for her to be participating. Right, and what that means to other folks in their ecosystem who are trans and why they think they have an entitlement to. Even speak on that when they had no stake or relationship to the sport at all. But they are entitled to an opinion, because whatever obscure rationale they've decided, and I think that. We're seeing or. At least I feel like I'm seeing. Thing you know, more incremental pieces of that to say, well, when it comes to sports, I do think it's different, right? They might not have cosigned onto a bathroom bill idea, but a, you know, average, average Joe might have a really strong opinion about sport because of it being a. A literal like group activity like a spectator, like everybody, can view it activity like well, I think.

Katie:
I think there are multiple things there, right? One is that sport people are incredibly emotional about sports, whether they played them or their fans or spectators, right? Like people have feelings about sports, very strong ones and and also it is a mask. Cultural activity, and I think sometimes. We, as a queer and trans community, don't always understand that so. What I mean by that is for most for a lot of queer trans people like sports is a site of trauma, right? Like it was a place that generated a ton of anxiety. Whether it's PE class. Or it was, you know, just. Like being in the locker room in general and. Like, you know, like people are undressing and you're like, OK, but like, I'm attracted to women. Like, what do I do like? You have just like a lot of anxiety. Being in homosocial environments for a lot of reasons and and. So I think that's part of it and also a lot of queer and trans people are. Just pushed out of sports, right? Like and so we're like, no, like, that is, that is a silly thing. That's silly. Sis hats do not us like we do theater and we care about health care and employment, right? Like we wanna talk about housing equality, right, people. Care like we don't. Care if you can play sports or not. This is not the conversation we. Want to be having right like as a larger community? Sports are very important to care very much about sports. Just to be clear, but. And I think. You know, part of that meant that when this like when this issue arrived at the doorstep of the greater ultimate EQ quality. Movement folks were like. What is this? Like and I think we're and you can see it in the Equality Act hearing of like 2019 where, you know, people like and it's just fascinating because the house at that time was controlled by Democrats. They're going to pass the bill, right. And so the Republicans were trying to not pass the bill. And they were keying in on. Transgender girls in girls sports it's very clear that it's happening and you can see a lot of the democratic witnesses going OK, sport. I housing like, can we talk about housing? And so to me it's just like really interesting how that has happened. Where you know? I think the meaning the cultural meaning of spa. Kind of caught the movement by surprise. I caught a lot of people by surprise because we may not always attach that same cultural meaning, because in fact the cultural meaning for us as a community around sports is actually something quite different. So there's that. But in terms of thinking about the masses and that emotional attachment to sports, it's incredibly moving. And then also the argument for restriction is quite simple, and it's a very seductive argument. Boys shouldn't play girl sports. OK. I agree that boy. Shouldn't play girl sports? But wait, who do you think is a boy?

RB:
Correct. Yeah.

Katie:
Right, like and so. That that is the.

RB:
It's an oversimplification, yeah.

Katie:
It's a very clear argument meant to prey on a lot of our assumptions that we make culturally about both sports and gender. Hmm. And one of those is that any person who is assigned male at birth is a better athlete than any person who's assigned female at birth in perpetuity for all time in all. And even if not everybody agrees with that perspective, it's clear that that drives a lot of the argument for restriction, and it's why, you know, you've seen it come down from, well, elite athletes should have restrictions to. Well, if you have XY chromosomes, you should never be allowed to do girls cross country. And it's like well. Like, OK, trans people can't change their chromosomes, but physiologically speaking. Like a transgender girl who has never gone through testosterone, driven puberty physiologically really isn't different from this gender girl, who also has never gone through testosterone puberty. Right, like that's true. But then also a transgender woman or transgender transgender adolescent who either began testosterone driven puberty or completed testosterone driven puberty and then medically transitioned and suppressed testosterone and did a lot of things physiologically, is not the same as a cisgender man who also went through testosterone driven puberty. Like that is also true. And yet, transwomen, who did go through testosterone, driven puberty and perhaps medically transitioned in adulthood or late, adolescents are treated in conversation as physiologically the same as a cisgender man, which is scientifically. Inappropriate, but there is no scientific study. That says that they. Are the same.

RB:
MMM.

Katie:
And so like, I just want to be very clear about that, like that's not me. Katie Barnes, having an opinion like that is me, Katie Barnes, having read all this like a whole. Bunch of science so.

RB:
Much I'm sure so.

Katie:
But most people don't know that, and culturally they think, oh, yeah, well, the reason we have the WNBA is because WNBA players can never compete with NBA players.

And it's like, OK, kind of like it's sort. Of a yes and. In that, yeah, there's height very like most of NBA players are significantly shorter than NBA players. So that would be difficult. And also let's talk about funding and resource allocation and like, if we don't have. 'S sports would comparably talented women be allowed to compete with their male counterparts? Or would it all or would? It always be assumed that they were. Incapable of such competition. And like that does not mean right that I mean, so I like all of that is true. And it's also true that the fastest woman in the world is not nearly as fast as the fastest man in the world. But that doesn't mean that above average female athletes are not better athletes than average men or below average men like it just. There's just such a lack of nuance in the conversation, and I find that to be really troubling because I think if folks really think through. Like what is Bree being presented to them? That and really grapple with not just the fact that this legislation exists, but the breadth of the legislation. Like we're not talking about ages where puberty is messy, right? We're not just talking about high school. We're not talking about elite athletics, like, just talking about competitive Division One college. But a lot of this legislation affects. Kindergarten through collegiate intramurals. And I'm like, does it matter if a trans woman competes in women's intramural volleyball like there are no stakes there? Right, like. I would argue probably not, like I don't know that it matters.

RB:
Right, no.

Katie:
UM and some people would say well, but safety. I'm like my like I played Sam Bob volleyball with my dad growing up like I was fine. Or and and. Then it it begs the question of, like, what is the limit of this type of restriction? Are we going to start policing who plays with who and pick? Up at the why? Like, are we going to like, are we going to start, you know, examining parks and rec policies around who's playing flag football? Who gets to play in a community softball league like slow pitch softball, you know, like, is that is that where we're? Going and. And I I don't know. That folks have really thought about. Some of those questions. Because they see a story like Leah Thomas and go well, that's not fair. That's like, OK, well, we can have a discussion about what appropriate policy is for Division One athletics. It's for elite athletics, like, that's fine. But should those limits that we place on elite athletes also be imposed on 7 year olds?

RB:
Right. Right, which I think brings up a point too, like from the perspective of. Like folks aware of. You more so than I, but I'm generally and you are more significantly aware of like NCAA. Policy Division One collegiate sports policy right. Like the reality of there being very specific steps that Leah Thomas, as an example had to take. Prior to the moment she jumped in the pool and became an NCAA Division One champion, right, like there is already. A significant. Set of policy that are rife with transphobia, but they're in place, right? They're already in place and I think that the way that some of these talking points have been laid out is that trans folks in the sense that we are predatory people, are just free to enroll in sport and take advantage and win all these trophies and beat. All all the sites, heads, et cetera, et cetera, which like I. Think speaks to something. That I gathered out of what you were saying. Earlier is that. There's kind of two cultural battles happening. One is in house with Quinn trans folks to have kind of tried to do this project I remember in 2021 You and Chris Moser and Naomi Goldberg. Sat on a screen as one of our queer policy conversations and we literally titled it. Why are we talking about sports? And it was for the perspective of folks like me who are not sports gays who had not been. Introduced to all of the connected pieces of if this is what the opposition is looking at right now, here's all the ways in which this will tailspin into more complex restrictions on trans people. This is just a stepping stone into something larger, and you've already named it is turned into healthcare restrictions, gender affirming. Restrictions, right. And those talking points transcend the sports conversation. Even though that was a limited. Population of people like you've named right that if it's happening to these folks, it's just a matter of time. Angela Davis, it's just a matter of time. Till they come for. Everyone else, this is just kind of the foot in the door to see if this gets more traction and it sure did. And then the other cultural project of. Trying to battle a deep seated gender essentialism amongst our society as as a whole that says there is a definitive biological difference between men and women. That means men do this and women do this. And you and I, as envy people are nowhere in that equation because we don't exist.

Katie:
Right. That's the other thing is like we can't even like talk about like non binary. Yeah, right now and I'm just like ohh, they exist, they're winning championships. Like we're going to talk about that. But I also think right that in some ways it's incredibly. Complicated to have some of these discussions because some of the gender essentialism, right. Some of it is true. Right, like and I want to be very clear about what I mean when I say that. Which is that. When somebody who's assigned male at birth and who has typical chromosomes for those people who has a typical gender identity or an expected gender identity for those for those folks, and then also has an expected gender expression, right, like all of those things are in alignment. When that person who is a man that goes through puberty and experiences testosterone driven puberty like these things that really do matter, they matter for athletic performance of whether output. Now, to be clear, much of our science focuses on the differences of that athletic performance, and those athletic outputs from the lens of the of elite sport, right? Like who is faster, who is stronger? And it's important to note that our sporting apparatus and our system. To exploit those masculine traits where men have dominated, right? So, like, that's very clear. Women in general actually much better at endurance events. OK. So like when we talk about strength and speed and power like, I mean it is an objective fact. Fact that at this time that I wrote this, this is Trisha Carter. Richardson has since run faster than than not time about to say, but like Shakari, Richardson ran the 100 meters and 10.272 seconds, 6th fastest time ever for a woman. And the high school State Open Championship champion in. Connecticut on the boys side, which is a very small state. One the 100 meter and 10.69 seconds. Right. Like there are differences, right? And. Like the way that those differences are communicated as like in a finality and in and as arguments for policy that should happen in perpetuity. Is an incomplete conversation. But I think folks really focus in on that particular truth to justify the feelings they have about gender. Mm-hmm. Right. And my point is that, OK, we can talk about that. This is true. Right. Like, this is a thing. And also let's talk about money. Let's talk about resources. Let's talk about how girls and women. 'S sports still. Aren't getting the same like the level of funding and resource allocation that they are. Entitled to under the law, let's talk about how there's been a lack of public and media investment in these sports over the course of their histories, which has suppressed, artificially suppressed the market for them, right, like we could talk on. All these things. And then when we see that level of equality, let's also then talk about what this looks like because. People will take this truth in track and field. And say oh. Well, that means that you know, Maya Moore could never be competitive like Maya Moore in her prime could not be competitive in a pickup game with similarly sized men. And I'm like. That's not true. Like she may not dot like, I mean NBA players like when I would dominate against Stephen Curry. I I don't know that she would, but the idea that like she couldn't. Get a stop. It's ludicrous, right?

RB:
Right. I got you.

Katie:
You know, it's like or that she can't hit. A corner three when? She's open. I mean, come on, like. So I think that we have just culturally as a society, we've really focused in on, you know, some of these objective truths and extrapolated in a way that I think really creates an incomplete conversation around what our sports say about us as a society. Around what people? Are capable of no matter what sex they are assigned at birth, or what gender identity they hold today.

RB:
That's it. Yeah. Yes. Because at the end of. The day I feel like what is? Playing out is a lack of precision like you're saying, and then this inherent praying on that lack of precision. That's already kind of embedded and how we talk about gender and how we talk about sex, which is its own problem, that we're trained folks are very well versed in and it makes me think of how this headline pulled up women. Feels like this has to come out because this feels like such an exemplar, like how that lack of precision turns into how the feelings around. Gender that we're discussing play into policy decisions or attempts, policy decisions, and so it's the it's the headline about trans women have been banned from top level female chess over fears that they have an unfair advantage. Right. And so the the subtext right is that trans women will be banned from top level female chess. Tournaments while the International Chess Federation assesses whether or not they have an unfair advantage, and so the fact that this, this federation, this organization is going to assess. Like means that they will potentially be positioned to kind of look at a lot of the foundational research that it sounds like you've read or that you've read and researched to do your pieces plus your pieces. But that sounds like too much grace to give to a federation that's probably going to follow their own bias because of the conversation lacking precision and finding the answers that they already want to find. What ******* advantage could trans women have? Playing chess. This is where this has spiraled. This has where this has gone. This is silly. This is silly and dangerous, which is for us like at.

Katie:
I mean.

RB:
The same time.

Katie:
Yeah. The chess thing, it was pretty wild. It reminded me of when folks were really upset about by some folks I should say were upset about Amy Schneider having who was a trans woman who had a really long run on jeopardy. And sometime in last couple years, and she broke the long standing record for most.

RB:
Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Katie:
Consecutive wins by a woman. And people were like, she's not a real woman. That shouldn't be her record. And I was like, what are we doing, like, like, what are we doing, you know, in terms of just like?

RB:
Right.

Katie:
I think to me, what is frustrating about how this, how this conversation has evolved? Is that very quickly, we move societally from a place of folks saying, hey, everything I've been taught growing up is that boys have an unfair advantage over girls in sports. And now you're telling me that somebody who went through testosterone driven puberty should be allowed to compete in girls and women's sports? And I don't. Know if that's fair, right. Like that's a fine question to ask. And and I think you know it's a reasonable question to ask and folks should be prepared to answer that question with the science and the data that we have with the understanding that the science and data that we have is incredibly incomplete and it takes time. To gather that science and data and Joanna Harper, who is a researcher in this area and at a university in the UK, she said something really interesting recently where she was she basically made the point that we need 20 to 30 years of science and data. And if everybody is banned. How do we get that? Right, like how? Do we find what is good evidence based policy if we don't have the ability to collect that right? I thought that was a good question. But I also think in this particular instance, we talk about chess like on its face, it's like this doesn't make any sense, right? And then what ends up happening is because there's a knee jerk reaction to calling something out, which on its face feels ridiculous. Folks like, well, wait. No, it's a point issue. It's like. People who are competing in men's chess competitively. Have higher point thresholds for advancement, I believe, and making certain tournaments. And then if you transition and are a woman and you go into the women's category, do you get to carry that ranking with you and what does that mean?

RB:
And candidly, I don't know enough about chess to really answer that question like, I’ve watched the Queens Gambit I've played chess. That's about all. I got, I don't know anything about professional chess. That's about it. That's all I. Right. And so like there is that conversation about rankings? But how it feels is that wait, are we saying that people who are assigned male at birth are smarter and better at chess inherently than people who are not assigned male at birth like that feels very silly and and so some of it I think is a lack of communication. Some of it is really animus and some of it.

Katie:
I think it's also a reflective of. The general hurt that is felt cumulatively by queer and trans folks around this discussion about policy and sports. Because why would chess ban trans women? But I also think that it's reflective of where we are in this conversation, which is the knee jerk response is to say. Ohh wait. We're just going to ban trans women from from women's competition and then we'll see if that's if we should do that later, we're going to gather evidence. Is that OK? But I don't know. Is there a proliferation of trans women in women's chess that we don't know about.

RB:
Well, what about trans men like the? The flip side is that this federation. Assuming that they also oversee men's tournaments men's chess tournaments, there's no right there's and you've made.

Katie:
They definitely do.

RB:
This point infinite number of times in perpetuity, that there is a heightened focus on eliminating trans women from sport. Not that it's not affecting all trans folks in various ways, but there's a significant focus on disallowing trans women to participate in women's sports because of again. Trans misogyny, lack of precision, gender essentialism, right, there's the the combination of misogyny and anti transness is. Potent in the ways, right. And so this is another example of how the focus is going to be where we need to eliminate trans women, which I think leads in the curtails of all of these more like mainstream sport conversations. And we're not seeing just because it's not the fandom is not as large for professional chess. It's probably very neat. I also think of a local. Example that happened to. I'll say an acquaintance, but my partner plays in a pool tournament like a billiards tournament locally, and it's just amongst various bars in the area and folks travel to their respective pool matches and there's a human on. There's a trans woman on my partner's team who is very good. She's phenomenal. She has this beautiful handmade case for her cues. She this is her life, right? This is the one thing that she emerges out. Of her little girl. Superior WI home for and she comes to play this game and she's excellent. OK and she scored very high over the course of. Tournament and when the postings on social media popped up for the I think it was like top ten in each gender category she was listed. On the men's list. Which is already an accomplishment, right? Because this this league is mostly men. There's very few women in this league to begin with, but she ended up on this top ten men's list, which based on what we're talking about, right, is an accomplishment because of the number of men participating in this. But she should have been on because she's a ******* woman. The women's list and the captain of my partner's team even addressed it with the folks who facilitate the league. And they acknowledged that they should have put her on the appropriate list but never actually did so. And so I think that. For me, right witnessing this in such a localized way speaks to how much these national large scale mainstream sports focused conversations. Trickle into there. There's kind of a mutual feed, right? It focuses up and it comes down right. There was no concept whatsoever that it was inappropriate. To put her on that list, even though either way regardless of what list she's on, speaks to her talent, but it then. Diminishes the celebration because she's not. To be. On that list.

Katie:
Right. Well, and I think it speaks to you know where we are at from a culture perspective on how we view trans people. And how much I think the limited progress of affirmation has been unwound. Where now folks culturally are much more comfortable with saying that trans women are and Jen Richards actually has tweeted about this in the past where she's a transgender actress and she has said there are people who view me as a type of. Man, that trans woman. As an identity as a subset of men versus a type of woman. Experience, yeah.

RB:
OK.

Katie:
And I think honestly like that's kind. Of where we are.

RB:
OK. Yeah.

Katie:
For a lot. Of folks who think of trans women as like ohh, OK, you know, maybe I'll use your pronouns. Maybe I'll use your name, but you're not a woman. You're a man. And you will always be. Command right? And thinking about how invalidating that I like that thought process is not just for transgender women who are seeking to participate in women's sports and compete in women's sports and want to be seen as who they are, but also for for all of us who have gender expansive identities and who. Are trends in a broader in a broad sense of the term right? Because for myself, as someone who's not binary like. It's already a struggle to be validated in that identity. It takes a lot of work and education to be seen as the person that I am and have always been like. When I look back at my upbringing and who I was as a child and like one of the most validating things that my mom has ever said to me, it's like a random phone conversation last year, you know? She was just like. You've always been. Non binary and I was like in that. Moment, I know I was like. Oh, you see me. Mom like, like, AM and who I was. And of course, you know, there was that period of time where I was trying to. Figure it out as we all. Do right, but whether you are holding you know A and binary identity, or you're a transgender woman, or you're a transgender man. Like the idea that it is OK to not see us for who we are. Is like I find that to be really disconcerting because it's a matter of respect. Mm-hmm. Right. Like and again. And I think for me, as somebody who is a sports journalist and who wrote a book. That really sought to answer. A lot of questions that I get from well meaning people about sports like I will seek to answer that yes. And also just out of frame is all of this stuff around respect and this idea that somehow it is OK. To not respect who we are as people.

RB:
Right, right.

Katie:
On an individual level, as we just move about the world. And that that to me, I find to be really disconcerting because. If somebody tells me. I don't know, like because we make these, we respect people for who they are in so many different contexts, right? Like, I grew up with a friend who. You know his name? He's the third of the men in his family with that, with with his specific name. Right. And so he went by trace TRACE. And it was a play on place, right like. And like but that is. What he? That's what he went by that. Was his name. Growing up and and and everybody did that like I go by a diminutive of Catherine. And like I every year in school, somebody would say Catherine Barnes and I would say, well, my name is Katie, please. And they would call me by my preferred name like. And so the the desire to not do what is asked of you in terms of being respectful to your fellow neighbor and society. It has become allowable for that to happen. Only to transgender people right now. As if like my name and how I should be referred to somehow up for debate. Right. And like that? That I find to be deeply challenging, separate from. Whether or not like separate from what appropriate policy should be for Elite Olympics swimming right, like, and the fact that these things are going hand in hand in our part and parcel, I wish there was more serious discussion and grappling with that on a meaningful level and what that was doing to our greater community, separate from discussions about. Board policy.

RB:
Reminds me of the space that was in ones where I was doing a, what was supposed to be a 20 minute pronoun training it turns to a 30 minute bizarre conversation with instructors, and I had never really been. I've never experienced this particular type of reservation against asking pronouns at the beginning of classes, which was what I was advocating for as some kind of method of opening up that. Space for folks to share pronouns in a classroom. And someone had named that. They weren't sure they felt comfortable. Talking about gender at the beginning of class and I was like, oh wow, that is not how I've ever understood folks to experience or understand why we advocate for sharing pronouns and introductory spaces right as a baseline better practice. And so I had to kind of reroute that person's thinking to say you're not. Like this is a piece of information that may be reflective or related to someone's gendered experience, but you're not. Asking about gender? You're not asking an intrusive question. This is about communication in the same way that you would ask peoples names like you're saying in order to effectively communicate and affirmatively communicate about these people. And so I think, not realizing that people have this reservation, thinking that you're asking personal information was a new experience. Where I've now kind of shaped shifted how I educate. And something as baseline as pronouns. To say this is about communication, this is not about understanding someone's deepest, innermost thoughts about their gendered self. You just need to know how to refer to this person and not think too much about it. And that's yeah, not not where we're at.

Katie:
No, it is like really interesting, because I remember in that story in 20. Teen you know Nancy Beggs? Who's Max? Grandmother was talking about this very topic and. She was just. Like you don't have to get it, you. Just have to go with it. Right. Like I don't, we don't need. To fully understand each other, there a lot of things. I don't understand about. A lot of people, but. Like when I tell you my name. And these are my pronouns. Just a good faith effort, right? Like the intentional misgendering, the intentional undermining, the intentional lack of respect as a means of. Communicating what you really think. About our community broadly like and that being consistently affirmed in the public arena, that is the stuff that I don't, I don't know. I just, I really don't have time for. I find that to be very.

RB:
Upsetting. Let's talk into the book a little bit more before we wrap up, right. It's coming out. The same day that this podcast episode will push it is called Fair Play with a subtitle because the gays love a colon and and you're an academic gays. So that also rings true. How about just a quick nutshell of the book, some highlights of writing the book and what are maybe like. One or two, like significant signal boosts you want to give or what you're hoping the book kind of contributes to this ongoing conversation that you've really been Privy to well before it has reached the public arena.

Katie:
The book is about everything we've been talking about this. Yes. Yeah, like that's what it is. It tells the story. There are a number of stories about various trans athletes in the book, some of whom you've heard from before, some of whom you have not. You know, some of whom were, you know, hearing more from. We haven't heard a lot from them. And but you know, it really dissects kind of how we got here where we are and where we're going. It's that simple from a women's sports perspective and a transgender athletes perspective and sort of tying those things together. Then in terms. Of I mean, writing the book was you. Know it was. I think of it as like the culmination of the entirety of my professional career so far, and what I mean by that is, of course, it talks about the topics that I am that are near and dear to my heart. But like the entirety of the first chapter is talking about. American Ninja Warrior which? Is like just something that like, yes, I'm gonna. Talk about sex, separation and sports through American Ninja Warrior. Let's get it.

RB:
Their best.

Katie:
And I also say that. It is designed to be finished like it is at times heavy, yes, but I think it's surprisingly light. Even though the topic can be very hard to kind of wrap your head around. Yes, there is science, but there are plenty of spoonfuls of sugar to help you. Get through it. You know, it's funny at times I think and and in that sense, you know, and I've heard that it's very readable and that was what I wanted to have happen. I really want wanted people to. Feel confident they could finish it once they started it. This this topic doesn't have to be super daunting and and so ultimately, when I think of what I want the book to do, I want it to help reset some of this conversation, to inject nuance into a discussion where there has not been very much. But then also I think to equip. Folks who are having conversations with loved ones and don't know where to start don't feel like they have enough facts. Don't feel like they have enough information to adequately have those conversations. This book is for you. If you have questions about anything that we've been talking about in terms of the science policy book is for you. You know, if you just want to hear like, just read some good stories like spokes for you too, there's a little bit of everything in there for a little something there for everyone, I think. And it was very hard to do that, but I'm very pleased with where we ended up. And I think ultimately. It's the kind of book that will. Have a positive impact.

RB:
I'm really glad to hear that. I'm really glad to hear it was a rewarding process. I know it's been a lot, a lot, a lot of work. I'm excited to read it. I I had posted recently and you. Responded with a. With a fake apology. But I was like. People need to. Stop publishing books for a second so that I can catch up because there's been some really great stuff I feel like I feel like everybody kind of like held on during COVID if they had something in the works. And then this. Is kind of the the prime year that folks are making making their debut with their folks, but. I'm super excited about it and just really. Proud, oppressed, and stoked for you and. Continue to be one of your. Biggest fans and I'm really excited to. Read the book so. Is there anything else you want to name before I pause this recording?

Katie:
No, just shout out Midwest. I love the Midwest.

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R.B.
Our inbox is open for all of your insight, feedback, questions, boycotts, memes and other forms of written correspondence. You can contact us at [e-mail]. This podcast is made possible by the labor and commitment of the Midwest Institute for Sexuality and Gender Diversity staff. Particular shout out to Justin, Andy and Nick for all of your support with editing, promotion and production. Our amazing and queer as fuck cover art was designed by Adrienne McCormick.

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