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Every product leader has to make them: the high-stakes decisions that define outcomes, shape careers, and don't come with easy answers.
The Hard Calls podcast, hosted by Trisha Price, features candid conversations with product and tech leaders about the pivotal decisions that drive great products and the pressure that comes with it. From conflicting priorities and unclear success metrics to aligning teams and navigating executive expectations, you will hear compelling stories and best practices that drive business outcomes and help you make the Hard Calls.
Real decisions. Real stakes. Real leadership.
Presented by Pendo
Learn more at pendo.io/
Follow Trisha Price on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trisha-price-3063081/
Trisha Price: If you build
software or lead people who do,
then you're in the right place.
This is Hard Calls, real decisions,
real leaders, real outcomes.
Hi, I'm Trisha Price, and welcome
back to Hard Calls, the podcast where
we have some of the best product
leaders from across the globe.
Come and talk about those moments that
matter, the big decisions, the hard calls.
I am so excited for today's
guest Jessica Soroky.
I have had the privilege and pleasure of
working with Jess for the last four years.
Jess has a great and interesting career
from agile coach to chief of staff
for one of the founders of Pendo,
to now heading up product operations
across Pendo, where Jess isn't just
responsible for making sure that
Pendo efficiently ships software.
She is responsible to make sure that we
achieve business outcomes and has been a
huge part of that transformation at Pendo
over the last few years in this role.
So welcome to the show, Jess.
Hey, thank you so much for having me.
Well, we are so excited
to have you here today.
It's gonna be a super fun conversation.
Jess and I know each other very well.
So I hope this is as fun for the
rest of you as it is for Jess and I.
Jess, this is the Hard Calls podcast,
so we like to start every episode
with the product leader sharing a
really tough call that they've had
to make and what made it challenging.
Jessica Soroky: Yeah.
So I'm gonna take a human aspect
of this and talk about a challenge
that you actually gave me when
I started working for you.
And, and that challenge was to build
the best possible team out there and,
and you really held a high bar that.
Frankly was incredibly motivating,
but it created the opportunity
for a really difficult call.
We had a team member who was
absolutely trying their best.
They were incredibly positive.
They had like the, if I could
recreate their personality and the
professionalism and the willingness to
try, I would do it a million times over.
Unfortunately, even at their best
for what we needed at the time, we.
Had to step back and be willing to look
at is this truly the best of the best?
Is this the elite team member
that we need right now to do
everything we're trying to achieve?
And the hard call, there was no, no,
like great human being, amazing person.
Worked really hard, tried really hard.
But they just weren't what we
needed to, to, to that a player.
so we had to make the really difficult
call to have to part ways with
that person to be able to create
space for somebody who was better
suited for our needs at the time.
And while it's on a product specific
call, I think it really did change
because I respect that human being,
but the person they brought in.
Has made some game, changing moves for
our team and for Pendo and all of that.
So at the end of the day, I know
it was the right call, but it was
definitely not easy in the moment.
Trisha Price: I love that you
shared that one because people.
Are such an important part of our
success, and it is a hard call
making the right hires, letting
people move on when it's time.
And I remember that time well, and
I respect your decision and the
way you handled it and so that's
a, that's a great one to share.
And, and so Jess, I'd love to,
to start off by talking about the
transformation that you led at Pendo.
I'm gonna guess it's been about three
years now since you started in this
role and started the transformation.
You helped the product team at Pendo
and Pendo really transform from really
thinking about product and go to market
separately and shipping features to
really driving business outcomes.
You'll never, I'm sure you'll
remember and I'll remember forever.
There was a feature and I,
I had heard it was shipped.
I could see in Jira it was shipped and
I went into the product, which I use our
product every day and I couldn't find it.
And I went and asked a million people
where it was and why I couldn't find it.
And I got 10 different answers
and no one really knew.
But our scrum masters our team was saying
it was shipped, but it wasn't shipped
because it wasn't on in the product.
And that became, began and sort of
a catalyst for all the work that
you did in the transformation.
So tell us about it.
Jessica Soroky: Yeah.
that, I do remember that feature.
I remember that, that slack interaction
and the horrible feeling of also
not being able to find you the
answer as, as an operational person.
I, it went into all of our systems and
all of our existing processes, and the
fact that I couldn't find it either was.
I'll never forget that moment.
but I do think that it was this
catalyst to really shifting our
focus from done, being defined as
engineering is done to No, no, no.
There's this much bigger ecosystem as a
whole company and what does it mean to
launch as a whole company and make sure
that all the different facets are ready,
enabled, supported, and can, everybody
can work together to make that successful.
So I think.
It was necessary that we went through
that because it led to to where we are
today, which is a lot more cohesive
as a larger organization and how we
launch products, and it completely
changed our entire lifecycle.
We went from, I think, being
like an SDLC-focused shop to.
We don't really talk about
our SDLC, and now it's the
product development lifecycle.
It's the PDLC through and through
every department, every part of Pendo.
We all know where we live and how we
act in that PDLC to make sure that the
investments we're making and what we
build are as successful as possible.
And, and when they hit
when they hit the market.
When it hits customers.
Trisha Price: I love that, and you've
done an incredible job of that.
Tell us a little bit about how you did it.
I'm sure it was a change to
people, to process, to technology.
It's probably a change and a
transformation that's never really
complete, but talk to us about
how you led us through that.
Jessica Soroky: Yeah, so we first
looked at the people, the roles that
we had at the time, and when we were
more focused on eng-done Nat, I, I
wanna say naturally it felt natural.
At the time our role was
focused in the agile space.
We had a team of Scrum
masters that were supporting.
I hate saying traditional scrum way
because that feels so weird, but a
traditional Scrum way and that they were
really dedicated to the engineering teams.
They were in the weeds with them
and managing the day to day.
And so the first and biggest
transformation we had to do was to
get those operational process people
to look at this bigger lifecycle.
They needed to understand
why the entire, uh.
From beginning of an idea all the way
through customer hands and then closing
that loop for us, given the product
that we build, we needed to be able to
make sure that we were truly utilizing
adoption metrics, usage engagement.
All of that needed to come back to the
beginning of the cycle to make sure
that we were constantly iterating and
improving based on those analytics.
and so.
To do that.
Then the first thing that we did
beyond changing their role and, and
kind of doing some base level at
reeducation of what they're responsible
for is we did an education tour.
If you remember this, I think I came to
you and was like, Hey, I wanna invite
leaders from the different departments
across the business to kind of do an
empathy tour with my team and teach
them from a customer success standpoint.
Why does this all, like what
matters to customer success?
What are their pain points?
What do they care about?
We did that for every major organization.
We had sellers come in
support folks come in.
We had, I think, legal
security, all of the things.
And we did a pretty deep dive for
the now program managers and all
these different functions that.
Kind of wildly and their
engineering focus, they never really
interacted with or understood.
They knew the conceptual right idea
of what a customer success person
does or what security does, but
they didn't understand it to this
level, and they needed that depth of
knowledge to be able to then put pieces
together more effectively as they were
coordinating this much larger process.
Trisha Price: That is great.
I love your focus on people
and giving them the exposure
to the rest of the company.
And I love, like, as an operations
person who does care about process,
that your first answer wasn't about
process, it was about the people.
But I think, you know, and, and
not over rotating on process.
And I think that's the true
testament to why you've been
successful with this transformation.
Jessica Soroky: Yeah, I mean we, we of
course had process pieces to it, right?
So as we were building out the people
and the education and the breadth of
knowledge, we did look at the process
we created, what we called I think we
still call it double diamond, which is
our mapping of this larger lifecycle.
And we needed to be able,
essentially to do our own version
of a customer journey and like.
If you're at the very beginning stage and
you're ideating what behaviors and actions
are happening, who's responsible for what?
How do we visualize and communicate
work in that stage to our CPO, to our
CEO, to our CTO, to all of those folks?
And so we did that step by step.
We created I believe it was ideate,
define, no ideate, validate, define.
Whatever the work stage is now, it's
crazy because that's like the part we
focus the least on because that's the
thing that we, we already knew very well.
And then all of the launch actions
and the go to market and all of that.
So we, we made sure it was really
clear who did what, when and
where in each of those steps.
And then we did a very big education
tour of our own this time going
around and making sure everybody knew.
What we did, how we did it, what
product ops did in that new function.
because we did change kind of
their role as a part of this
big transformation as well.
So we wanted to clarify how they
add value and where to use them.
and then frankly, we just
had to start executing.
We had to start proving it through
day-to-day behaviors and actions
and taking people's feedback.
Pendo has never been a company
that wants Heavy, heavy process,
and I've known that from day one,
which was helpful in this because
it, we started with a steel thread.
What's the bare minimum?
How can we define it the best we know?
And then let's just iterate and test
it and not get offended or hurt.
If somebody comes back to us and
goes, Hey, this piece isn't working,
or It's too heavy, or it's too light.
Let's just make sure that we're listening.
Constantly taking the
feedback and iterating.
Trisha Price: I'll say that is
definitely one of your biggest
strengths that has shown up.
and, and probably a big part
of why this transformation was
successful is your ability to take
that feedback from everybody and
just let it power improvement.
not, take offense to it.
So, Jessica, we're talking so much about
moving to business outcomes versus just
focusing on optimization of process.
Can you share.
What's a business outcome that you
and your team have been accountable
to drive across the company?
Jessica Soroky: Yeah, so since we define
product ops as half program management and
then half product operations managers, the
program managers are held to the business
outcomes of the success of our launches.
So they are expected to drive
more thoughtful, intentional,
strategic launches of our products.
Measures of success business outcomes.
There is, do every one of our launches
have clearly defined measure of success?
Do we have Pendo dashboards
that can show that we are
progressing against those goals?
are we communicating effectively given
our leadership's how do I wanna say this?
Given, given
given our leadership's desire to.
Be able to grab information
whenever they want, right?
So even all the way up to Todd and
our CEO, he loves to be able to
asynchronously go find information.
I remember you and I
talking about this a ton.
How do we make it simple so that if he
wakes up at 3:00 AM and wants to go find
an answer, he can do that on his own.
So they were absolutely
measured by that outcome of.
How often does he have to go?
Or do you have to go ask somebody
as a human for an answer versus
you can find the information
on the product operations side?
We had to really figure out, because
our PMs should be really good at
their own segment of the product
and finding and using data, right?
So a lot of product operations teams
have to be that like data force where
they're pushing data out, they're
helping educate how to use data,
how to make data-driven decisions.
We didn't have nearly the same.
Responsibility in that space
because of the PMs that we
employ and, and their day-to-day.
But we did have to start to drive better
business outcomes about how we use
the aggregate data across our product.
So how do we make sure that, that
you as our CPO had the right level
of information looking holistically
versus these individual slices
where the individual PM sat.
And so we were really look constantly
focusing on how do we incorporate
it into our operating cadence?
How do we make data a
natural part of our behavior?
Versus this forced function
where we had to stop and go,
okay, now it's that time again.
Let's look at the data and make
sure we're paying attention to it.
so that's definitely one that we've
driven to on the product operations side.
Trisha Price: So you talked about
Pendo and our obsession with data.
As a part of our decision making and
process and how that is a self-served
motion for our product managers.
And that I definitely agree with.
It is true.
So I get asked this all the
time, and I'm sure you do too.
Is, what is our product cadence
or product review like at
Pendo and how do we use data?
and metrics in that process.
So talk to us about that.
Jessica Soroky: Yeah, so each of our
individual programs has a little bit of
their own flare as to how they are looking
and using their individual product data.
But across the product we have we
start with our roadmap reviews.
so these are a shared meeting
between product leadership
and engineering leadership.
It is a smaller audience in that
the presenters are really focused
on like one segment of our product.
and they're normally our most senior
product leaders in that segment.
So it's not like a broader
meeting they come in.
We have really worked hard to
eliminate presentation building.
we try really hard to
just say, Hey, come in.
Pull up your Miro board if you're
playing with, or your Figma board if
you're playing with early designs.
But pull up Pendo, show us Pendo itself.
Bring up your dashboard.
Show us what's going on in in the area
of the product that you have built.
Use that data to build the story
as to what you plan to build next.
And then leading through
those types of conversations.
We use Pendo roadmaps to
visualize what they have built
and they're about to build.
So that's a monthly cadence.
We also have a quarterly cadence that we
call the product Impact ONI, which is.
This really cool cross-functional event.
It's big.
I'll be the first one to admit it.
It is not cheap.
but that just pushes an onus, I
think, to making sure it's highly
valuable for everybody, which is kind
of a cool pressure in my opinion.
But in that meeting we
split the responsibility.
So the first half of the meeting
is customer facing teams.
That are coming to us sharing qualitative,
typically sometimes quantitative
data from their point of view.
What are they seeing in the field?
What's the market like
analysis going on right now?
What's a big competitor we
should be paying attention to?
What's PMM's strategy and priorities?
what's sentiment with renewals?
What's challenging?
Those types of things.
They bring that products
responsibility is to bring.
Now this is where we invite the vast
majority of our PMs and they get the
chance to show off in a broader sense.
Here's what I've built recently.
Here's how it's being in
utilized by our customers.
There's oftentimes calls to action
there to be able to build that
cross-functional relationship to say,
Hey, if adoption's here and we want it
to be here, cross-functional partners,
I need your help in designing.
What does this look like?
What's the right strategy?
Should we deploy more guides or should
we utilize different types of, of tools?
And then they also show off.
the Next six weeks.
Again, we really try to keep it
focused, narrowed in on what did we just
build and what are we about to build?
and then they get feedback from
those cross-functional partners again
on are we hitting the right marks?
Are we addressing the issues that
you guys just presented and what
we're planning on building next?
It's pretty simple in my opinion.
It's just really those two cadences.
Obviously we are still a scrum shop, so
on an ongoing basis our teams are meeting
every two weeks, reviewing what they
build, planning their what's next and
looking adoption metrics at that point.
But we as an organization
are, have those two cadences.
Trisha Price: That's great.
So Jess you talked about,
especially that first smaller
meeting, tell me like, what's the.
What's the culture?
What's the vibe in that meeting, right?
Like is this a meeting where
people can tear apart each other's
ideas without taking offense?
Is this a meeting where we're trying
to band together and we have meetings
before the meetings and we're
really championing ideas so that
the CPO and the CTO sign off on it?
Like just tell us what's the vibe there?
Like how do they get to the right answer?
Jessica Soroky: So
single word was the vibe.
Passionate.
They're very passionate meetings.
No, to my knowledge, there's no
meeting before the meeting to try.
Thank goodness.
Yeah, thank goodness.
and I will say I, I don't have like
a hard statistic, but I know that
we have significantly decreased
the amount of preparation that
used to go into similar meetings.
The amount of hours to build slides
to show what we have in our own tool
was, was kind of crazy in the past.
I do think it, there is a lot of.
I mean, it's product people.
Everyone loves what they're building.
Everyone has their baby.
Everyone has their idea.
So there's definitely strong opinions
in those meetings, but I think we
have fostered a culture where you
can challenge and be challenged.
And it's not a personal thing,
it is really just about.
What is the right
strategy for the business?
What's the right strategy for the product?
And then if you're being challenged
on your idea, like where's the data?
Show us what makes you believe that
your idea is the right idea for
our customers or for our product?
I think it's a pretty, pretty fun,
they're definitely, they're intense.
They're intense meetings for sure,
but I think that they're mostly fun.
and it's cool because of how frequently
they happen given just like where
the, frankly, the world is right
now with how fast everything is
evolving and, and how big the AI.
Conversation is becoming.
It gives us a chance to iterate much,
much faster on is this the right strategy?
Still, even if we knew it was a
good idea a month ago, is it still
Should we keep investing in it?
That kind of thing.
Trisha Price: So you mentioned AI,
and obviously AI is changing, not
just the features and how people
in product and engineering deliver
software through agents, et cetera,
but it's also changing how we work in
product and design and engineering.
How have you, your team, Pendo,
utilized AI and how is that changing
the efficiency and how you work?
Jessica Soroky: okay, so great question.
one of the things that I would say
that we've utilized probably the most
recently is Bolt, which we did a really
cool hackathon recently where normally
our hackathons historically have been
run by our engineering teams to, and
they have some sort of a theme and they
get free run to go build and, hack.
This particular hackathon was really
hyper-focused on how do we use AI to
prototype early ideas faster and to, to
figure out the viability of those ideas.
So our design team ran
it, which was really cool.
and they kicked off.
They gave a very short, 30 minute intro.
A lot of our folks that were playing in
this hack had never experienced this tool
before, this 30 minute intro, and then
they were given a couple hours to, with
a, with a problem statement that they were
trying to solve for, to go play and solve.
And the results that we got back were.
Kind of mind blowing and how,
how cool of of idea and how
far the idea got that fast.
Like the way that they were
able to visualize it, it was.
A really cool experience.
So Bolt has stuck since that hackathon.
our, our teams all love to play with that.
We also are, are from a product
operations point of view specifically,
we do lean in heavily to the insights
that Pendo provides through Listen, and
how we try to look at that across the
product to make sure that we're weaving.
that Back into those cadence,
those operating cadence meetings
that I was talking about.
So in the roadmap reviews and the
larger cross-functional meetings, making
sure we're pulling those insights and,
and making them visible to everybody
has been a big improvement as well.
We don't have to manually go through
all of our NPS results one by one by
one anymore, and create our own summary.
Now it's.
It's simple.
It's fast.
Trisha Price: That's awesome.
That's great.
Well, switching gear gears back
to measurements and outcomes.
I know OKRs are a big part of
how Pendo runs the company.
Talk to me about your role with OKRs and
then specifically product operations.
How do you take company OKRs and
help cascade them specifically
to what you measure in product
and and the success there?
Jessica Soroky: Yeah.
So we have the program managers
as a part of product operations.
They are the ones that manage
all of our companywide OKRs.
So we assign one program
manager to each OKR, and they
essentially program manage the OKR.
They make sure that there's clear sets
or clear measurements for success.
They ensure there's milestones,
they make sure progress is
happening, they raise risks, handle
interdependencies, those types of things.
My role is I get to do the same
thing, so I, I jump into to OKRs
myself and help program manage them.
similarly in R&D across product
and engineering, if there's a big
cross-functional, hairy, complicated
thing, normally I get the joy of
jumping into them and helping herd
the cats and, and organize that.
there was an OKR somewhat recently
that stands out the most to me.
That kind of really
iterate, like to me, shows.
an outcome that we were trying to drive
towards, which was we were trying to
improve as a company, our cross sell.
So we had recently released a couple
different new SKUs, new products and we
weren't getting the attachment that we
were looking for with those new SKUs.
It wasn't that it was horrible, but
it wasn't the ideal state, right?
So we organized a company-wide OKR
that included folks from all the
major departments, revenue marketing
product engineering, every facet to
say, how do we really intentionally.
increase cross sell, increase the
adoption of these different products.
And so that was really cool because we
obviously had the direct connection to
our product organization, and we were
able to bring that OKR into product
and say like, from our, from our point
of view, what can we be doing better?
Right?
Are there guide strategies that we could
be using that to drive adoption here?
Are there intersections?
I think that was actually one of the.
OKRs that really started
to birth this concept of
intersections across our product.
And so making sure that from an
product ops point of view, we were then
taking that lesson of, okay, there's
this concept of an intersection.
How do we start to drive that as an
outcome as we build going forward,
even after the OKR ends, we wanna
make sure that this concept becomes
a part of our natural behaviors
and that we're talking constantly.
I remember we do something that
you started with us, which is these
product days and once a quarter.
Once a No, twice a year.
Twice a year.
Not once a quarter, twice a year.
We bring all the product together
and it's this cool showcase of them
getting the chance to show off what
they've built, what they're doing.
It really drives cross knowledge
knowledge sharing around what
other folks are building.
But when we started to incorporate this
idea of intersections from that OKR, it's
like that showcase just really took off
because then they were challenged to think
about what they were building, but from
a larger point of view and this bigger
ecosystem that we were building, and it
was just, it became very, very impactful.
I, I still hear constantly
about when's the next one?
When, when do we get to do
the next product showcase?
so it's definitely latched on for sure.
Trisha Price: I love this concept of
intersections that you raised, which
is so many product companies claim
to be a platform because they simply
build multiple modules or products.
On the same technology stack or even
have a similar look and feel or a part
of the same application, but this concept
of intersections that you bring up,
which is really, really thoughtfully
understanding the user experience and
those magical intersections between
two different projects, products
between two different modules.
Is so special.
And to your point, it can drive real
business outcomes of cross sell, right?
If you're thinking about one of your
products and a job to be done or an
action or a workflow that, that someone's
completing, and then right naturally from
that, you can figure out a launch point
to one of your other products or modules.
It's such the special way to differentiate
from the competition, but also a diff
a special way to drive cross sell.
So that, I love that you
brought that example up.
So OKRs, you help run
them for the company?
Yep.
OKRs can be amazing when done well.
They can be a major eye roll and just.
A headache and a checkbox
exercise when done poorly.
Tell me, what do great OKRs look
like and how do you help make sure
they're actually useful for Pendo?
Jessica Soroky: Whoa,
that's a big question.
we, we have tried lots of
different flavors of them if
we're being transparent, right?
We've tried annual OKRs.
that span the entire fiscal year.
We are currently in quarterly OKRs.
I think the, it's kinda like a Goldilocks
thing where we have figured out that
it's not always one or the other.
that's definitely something that I would
say is a successful OKR is looking at
the outcome you are trying to drive with
that KR to decide the timeframe to give
it versus being super locked into know
everything must fit into this time box.
so I think that's number one is making
sure that you allow at the time it needs.
To actually achieve the outcome.
then I think you need
clearly measurable outcomes.
it is not an OKR unless you can
measure the thing that you say
you are trying to accomplish.
So what does that look like?
Right?
So in, if you're trying to
increase cross sell, that's a
pretty simplistic one, right?
So we know what our baseline metric
for what the adoption of those
new products was when we started.
Then you set a goal.
Where are we trying to get to?
We're trying to increase by
15%, 20%, whatever that that is.
Making sure you're driving to that and
then having milestones that are truly
value checkpoints, not just, I accomplish
these three tasks, meaning sometimes
I can see poor OKRs being the laundry
list of all these activities we have to
do and in a sequential order, and then
them going, okay, milestone here, but
like, what did you actually achieve?
At that milestone when you do it
that way versus, I like to just start
with, what's your overall outcome
you're trying to drive towards?
And then if you almost like reverse
engineer it, if we're gonna get there
in three months or six months, whatever
your timeframe is, where do we need to
be a month before the end of that to be
know that we're gonna nail that thing.
Oh, we need to be here.
Okay, cool.
And you continue to do that
back until you get to the very
beginning and then you fill in
your tasks versus I oftentimes see.
folks that are slightly newer
to that structure go massive
objective laundry list of tasks,
and then they just, oh, crap.
We need some milestones,
and they tag some dates.
And I, I don't see that
nearly as successful.
Yeah,
Trisha Price: no, that's great
advice and easy to get caught up in.
I already know what I need to do.
Let me start focusing on the tasks
versus what am I trying to achieve.
And I think that's so relatable
to this whole conversation for
product particularly because.
It can be the same way, right, for
specific products that we ship, as it
can be very easy to get excited that
we shipped five different features,
even if none of those five features
actually improve retention or adoption
or revenue or whatever our goal is.
So I think that's good advice for
all of us to keep in mind whether
it's OKRs or launching a new product.
Shockingly, not every single
project program product that we
try to accomplish is successful.
So one of the things I know you're
exceptional at is postmortems and
helping us figure out the why.
So tell us a little bit about your
process for running postmortems on
product decisions that didn't pan out.
So
Jessica Soroky: this goes
to my Agile background.
it's a pretty core concept
to any Agile's out there.
You retro you retro constantly.
I think I really benefited from a
really good mentor when I first started
out and like some of the facilitation
techniques to draw some safety into the
room so that people can be honest, basic.
guidance would be starting with some
rules of engagement, especially if
something really didn't go well.
Making sure that everyone in that
room knows this is not a blame game.
We're not looking to.
Point fingers at each other or tear
other groups down to, to justify
the situation that we are in.
I prefer if at all possible in
person postmortems just because
you do get the I think increased.
Anonymity of a, I love a sticky note.
I'm, I'm an old school.
Give me a stack of sticky notes
and a whiteboard and we can
postmortem literally anything.
because it's, it's nice to be able
to, to just write down kind of what
you're feeling, what you're thinking.
It sounds wildly simple, but I still
constantly have to remind people that
when you are, whether it's a virtual
whiteboard and aren't an in person one,
identifying things that went wrong.
Don't call out names or teams
like we, we, we don't need to know
that Becky screwed this thing up.
We need to know that x, y, and Z
process didn't work efficiently or
that a step got missed or, or whatever.
The thing is, don't, we can
identify the thing, not the person.
And sometimes I've even had
to, as, as the facilitator,
reading through them, just omit.
Pieces that somebody has written on, on
their piece of feedback to make sure that
it doesn't become this personal thing.
so those are some basic, I would
say, facilitation techniques.
The other thing that I would, I
really encourage, or that I do
myself is I'm not afraid to ask
some dumb questions in the session.
If I don't know everything that's
going on, I think it can actually
be really beneficial because I can
say, Hey, as an outsider, explain
this more to me in layman's terms.
And it almost like de-villanizes the
situation because it just, it, it gave
me the most basic rundown of what was
supposed to happen and what did happen.
And when they are able to do that, it
can take some of the heat off of it.
And the key, the final key is if you don't
get to action about what you're going
to do different next time or what you're
going to change as a lesson from this.
It's a waste of everyone's energy
and time, so making sure that you are
clearly and constantly getting to action.
I prefer to do it as we talk
about each individual thing versus
I've seen some folks that like
to talk through all of the stuff.
And then get to action.
I think folks are exhausted
when you take that, that path.
So I like to just action it as
we talk about it and then make
them find or finish the session,
I'm sorry, with prioritization.
Out of everything we just actioned,
what's the most bang for our buck?
What should we change
or do differently first?
and then I assign an owner.
And when are you gonna be accountable
to finishing that thing, which also
sometimes gets missed when you're
doing these post-mortems is ownership
and deadlines to see it improve.
And then I'm a great nag.
I love to nag people after.
Yeah.
Trisha Price: Got to Got to
that's part of the job, right?
Yep.
It's part of the fun.
Yep.
So, you know, we, we've talked about
your role of program managing as well
as product operations holistically
to help product teams effectively
and efficiently drive business
outcomes through shipping software.
Part of your job is to constantly look
at how the product team and engineering
are doing and make suggestions to
improve, to help us figure out where
our bottlenecks are, to help us
figure out what's not working well and
where we're not achieving outcomes.
How do you help?
Like, what are you looking at?
What is this continuous improvement,
continuous learning look like?
and then how do you fold
that back in to make change?
So I think
Jessica Soroky: something
Trisha Price: I've learned
Jessica Soroky: somewhat more recently
is just being really, really close with
the leaders in product and engineering to
understand what they care about because
As their desires and needs change.
So should what, what and how we behave.
And I will say, I don't think I
knew that earlier on in my career.
I didn't realize it.
so we went through a CPO change and,
and it was a big reminder of like,
okay, let me check in again and figure
out what did Trisha care about versus
what does this new CPO care about?
How is that different,
how our behaviors change?
very recently we've been
talking internally about this.
Building AI is a very different
way of building software than
than previously experienced.
So similar conversations is like,
okay, CTO CPO what do you want to see?
What is the outcome that
you are trying to drive for?
And then how does the process
and what we measure create that?
So for instance one of the things
that we're trying to figure out
how to do is iterate even faster.
How do we increase the or how
do we decrease, I'm sorry.
The time from idea to
just hands on keyboard.
We wanna just experiment rapidly
so that we can test it quickly and
learn from our lessons quickly.
And so we had to step back and go,
okay, well what are we measuring
today and what behaviors are
driving the anti-patterns to that?
Like why aren't we getting that to
be able to then go if that's what
I believe what you measure is the
behaviors you're gonna get 100%.
So when we stopped and looked at
it from that point of view, we were
able to quickly realize, well duh.
We're getting the results
that we're getting because of
the things we're measuring.
So let's change those measurements
and let's find measurements that
make sense for this new behavior.
So that particular example, one
of the ones we're playing with
is how do we decrease cycle
time from idea to to dev start.
we have baselines.
We measure them already in, in,
in our tool, current tool suite.
So it's not hard for us to, to set the
standard and now it's just, okay, let's
experiment and figure out what ways can we
decrease that cycle time really quickly.
Trisha Price: That's, that's amazing.
And so you talked about your
engagement with the product leaders
and understanding what their goals
are and what's important to them.
When you figure out these changes that
you do need to make, how do you manage
that change with the rest of the team?
Jessica Soroky: Depends
on the scale of a change.
Definitely impacts it.
because of my experience at Pendo.
Being in both engineering and
products and having really strong
relationships with both leadership teams.
Normally my first reaction is to try to
assess how much do I need both sides.
Like, so some changes I might
just need product buy-in.
whereas other changes, I absolutely
need R&D to be bought into it, and so
that changes my behaviors going forward.
If I need engineering to also be
bought in, then playing through
our own internal dynamics to
figure out what's the right way of.
Bringing the situation to them,
but at the bare, at the basics
level of it, it's always the why.
I think you, you really helped me
constantly think about and, and
position any change management,
starting with why are we doing this
and why do you IC care about that?
Why?
So like whether you're a product manager
or product operations manager, an
engineering leader or an IC engineer,
if we're asking you to do something
differently, What's the positive impact
you should, you should expect from that
change and trying to lean into that.
and then I know this is no, no leader's
favorite thing, but like repetition
over and over and over again.
Communicate it over again
and again and again.
Um.
I, that's a, that's a constant
challenge, but and you're
Trisha Price: right, it's not our
favorite, but it is important and
you're good at reminding us of that,
and you're a great partner that way.
and, we appreciate that.
you know, in, in closing today,
Jess, one of the things, product
operations, it's not a new
concept in product, but it's not.
been around as long as product either, and
especially for companies that are still,
you know, undergoing the transformation
to some sort of product operating model.
You know, may not be as familiar with
product operations or people may think
that's something I can do down the
line or if I'm trying to save money,
it's not something I need right now.
Tell us why product operations is so
critical and why people can't afford
not to have product operations.
Jessica Soroky: Yeah, so I, I see it
actually really similar to this craze
around AI in the sense that with everyone
wanting to to be as fiscally responsible
as possible, given the constant ups
and downs of the economy right now.
Product operations when, when done well
is an incredible way to get more out of
your existing product organization without
having to add additional heads to it.
it is an incredible way to make sure
that if you are investing in ai, that
you're getting the most out of those
tools and the rollout across your product
org, and ensuring your PMs know how to
use them, where to use them, how they
can simplify their life with them.
I think that it is, it's not there yet,
but I do believe that product ops is
gonna become the same type of heartbeat
to a product organization that, like a
rev ops is to a revenue organization.
It's continuing to just capitalize on, on
the value that it brings and make, and.
Creating consistency across
these product organizations.
But if anything, I think it's more
critical now than ever because folks don't
have the dollars to go build out 10 more
PMs or even expand by one or two more PMs.
So if you can figure
out how to get a small.
Very operationally minded
set of human beings to find
you efficiencies constantly.
Why would you not want that right now?
When, when all belts are tight?
Trisha Price: Yeah, I think
that's a great point, Jess.
And, and I was having a conversation
with Marty Cagan who we all look
up to especially when it comes
to product operating models.
And one of the things that Marty said
that I really appreciated was that.
Every single company creating
software needs, project
managers and program managers.
But that's not what a product manager is.
And if a product manager is spending
all their time doing program management
and project management, then no
one is being a product manager.
And I think that's true across,
right, whether it's the design team,
whether it's product marketing.
And so I think your team has just
done an incredible job of keeping.
Us focused on the business outcomes we're
trying to achieve, helping us understand
where the roadblocks are, where we're
slowing down, where we're stuck, providing
transparency into that, and then really
helping all the other teams stay true to
also what they're supposed to be doing.
And just because you're a good
product manager does not mean you're
great operationally and vice versa.
So but we have had people.
From a career path, go from product
operations to product management as well?
Jessica Soroky: A hundred percent.
I actually think it's one of the
biggest symbols of success in my mind
is especially because those two use
cases, they were agile backgrounds.
and had we stayed on the
path that we were on.
I could almost bet my paycheck
that they would've never moved from
Scrum master to product manager.
But this move into program management
being such a vital part of product
operations and living in product,
gave them this really cool career
opportunity to, to see just much
more about how product is built and
then move into that space themselves.
Trisha Price: That is great
and hopefully that's a great
advice for all of our listeners.
For people who ask you and I all the
time, how do you get a path into product?
it is, you know, it is obviously
more than being organized in a great
program manager, but by sitting in
product and understanding the outcomes
and understanding what product is
and does, gives them more exposure
and sometimes even they can try
it out and yeah, somebody might be
on leave or someone might be away.
Or we may have a new open spot and, and
even give someone from product operations
or program management a chance at that.
So that's great.
Well, Jess, thank you so much for
joining us today on hard calls.
I really appreciate you sharing your
experience, your wisdom around all
things, product, operations, all
things data, some things Pendo, and
specifically on the transformation
at Pendo to, business outcomes.
So thank you.
No problem.
Thanks for having me.
Thank you for listening to Hard
Calls, the product podcast, where
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