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What if you could hang out with successful women lawyers, ask them about growing their firms, managing resources like time, team and systems, mastering money issues, and more; then take an insight or two to help you build a wealth-generating law firm? That’s what we do each week on the Wealthy Woman Lawyer podcast. Hosted by Davina Frederick, founder and CEO of Wealthy Woman Lawyer –– every episode is an in-depth look at how to think like a CEO, attract clients who you love to serve (and will pay you on time), and create a profitable, sustainable firm you love. The goal is to give you the information you need to scale your law firm business from 6 to 7 figures in gross annual revenue so you can fully fund, and still have time to enjoy, the lifestyle of your dreams.
Welcome to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast. What if you could hang out with successful women lawyers, ask them about growing their firms, managing resources like time, team, and systems, mastering money issues, and more? Then take an insight or two to help you build a wealth generating law firm. Each week, your host, Devina Frederick, takes an in-depth look at how to think like a CEO, attract clients who you love to serve and will pay you on time, and create a profitable, sustainable firm you love. Devina is founder and CEO of Wealthy Woman Lawyer, and her goal is to give you the information you need to scale your law firm business from 6 to 7 figures in gross annual revenue so you can fully fund and still have time to enjoy the lifestyle of your dreams.
Intro:Now here's Devina.
Davina:Welcome back to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer podcast. I'm your host, attorney Devina Frederick, and I'm very excited about today's episode. We've been publishing the wealthy woman lawyer podcast weekly since March 2019. And in that time, I've interviewed numerous guests. So this year, I thought I'd try something new.
Davina:I'm calling it the wealthy woman lawyer podcast takeover because I'm inviting some of my favorite people, collaborators, and friends to take over my podcast for an episode and share with you their knowledge, expertise, and point of view related to our favorite topic, helping women law firm owners scale their law firm businesses. So today's guest is Karin Conroy. Karin is the founder of Conroy Creative Council, a marketing company that specializes in working with law firms effectively to effectively market their services for optimal results. So I've known Karin for several years now. She is a good friend and collaborator.
Davina:I've been on her podcast. She's been on my podcast. And we love to talk about, women owned businesses, in particularly women in law and the different challenges that women experience as law firm owners. So I really hope you enjoy her takeover today as much as I did. Without further ado, here's Karin Conroy.
Karin:Hi. I'm Karin Conroy, and I'm the founder of Conroy Creative Council. And I also have a podcast called council cast, but I'm really excited to be here on the wealthy woman lawyer podcast today. And I am going to talk about a few things. I'm gonna talk about why women led law firms and businesses are different.
Karin:And I'm not gonna just kind of talk broadly. I'm gonna say some things that hopefully you haven't heard before. I'm also gonna talk about how this relates to a marketing plan. I'm gonna talk about some AI and how to tie all these things together. So let's start first by talking about women led law firms and businesses.
Karin:So I have had my podcast now for going on four years, and I've had a lot of women on, including Devina. And we've had a lot of conversations about this, how things have changed over time, how businesses have changed, and especially with the advent of the Internet and being able to work online and have a different type of work life balance. It's been an interesting experience. And there's a time that Devena has discussed in on my podcast where she had to decide if she was going to pursue her career or have children. And when I look at my path, I didn't wanna make that choice.
Karin:And so I have both. I have children and a career. And I, as I look forward, don't see the future generations having to make that choice either. And this is a major, major change in the way our economy is run, the way that our home lives are experienced, and the way that we find the balance in both. And there's obviously going to be people who make the decision one way or the other, and they decide for whatever reason that they're not having kids, or maybe they're just not in that season of their life anymore.
Karin:But I do feel that that is a significant driver for women in terms of how this career works in terms of my broader life, which is different for men. So and I look forward to a day when that is more balanced and we don't have to kind of speak in these types of terms. But, realistically, it is very much the case that a lot of women have to make that decision and also that there are some of these roles that are more commonly found in women and also personality differences. So what I see in terms of the way women led businesses are run differently is that we just think strategically in a different way. Women generally think more collectively in a more communal way.
Karin:And the way I've heard this described that I think is a really good visual is that men male led companies are more like a ladder, and female led companies are more like a circle. So if you imagine women gathering their group of people that they're working with together, it's going to visually feel more like, let's gather together, have a conversation, think about as a communal group, how we can make this different and better as opposed to it being a competitive linear growth structure like a ladder. And I think this is also, you could compare this also to just the way that the world has changed in terms of traditional law firm structure as opposed to the way the Internet and things going towards the future have also changed in terms of linear growth versus a wider exponential ripple effect that the Internet has had on business growth. So, I think it's important to take into account because women as companies, when it comes to the culture and team building, are going to typically have a different approach. If you go back to this ladder versus a circle idea, the culture in a company is going to feel different if it is not this competitive linear structure.
Karin:And this culture and the team building idea goes directly into your strategic plans. How are we different? Why do our clients come to us? How can we serve them in a way that really makes them feel satisfied with our work and also makes them maybe send us a referral and gets into these some of these soft skills. So I know this is a strange place to start for a marketing topic, but when you come to strategy and strategic difference, it really comes back to relationship building, how to be a human, how to convey your humanity in in visual and ways and words, and how can I maximize these differences in a way that people who have yet to become my client can use to recognize that I am the right choice for them?
Karin:So when you start to think about why you chose to be a lawyer, what reasons you chose your practice area, and what things drive you beyond revenue. The revenue is something that is just a tool that is gonna get you to that that true goal that is at your core. But what is that true true goal, and how can we tie that back to what makes you different, unique, and memorable as a lawyer? And so once again, that comes back to how you run your business, how you run your firm, and how you can articulate that in a way that people can recognize it right away. I typically come back to a website because, historically, that has been a lot of people's first impression.
Karin:In the last year or so since AI has become really so such a significant part of the search process, it's not necessarily the first impression anymore. AI and those search results are going to be your first impression. So the search results may be happening on ChatGPT. They might be happening on on Claude. They could be happening on Google, but oftentimes, that first result and that first impression is gonna be happening there.
Karin:And then they come to your site, and they need to be convinced that you are the right choice for whatever their issue is, whatever they're searching for. And that's not gonna be con they're not gonna be convinced by some very analytical details. They're gonna be convinced by things that are deep in their core felt by their by their gut. And so I oftentimes will hear people who are my potential clients who are coming to me in our initial conversation, and they will have probably spent time on various platforms where they have found me. So it may be on YouTube where they are watching my podcast, and then they come to maybe see me on a social media post, and then maybe they come to the website, and then maybe they have got one of my emails.
Karin:And it's a combination of those different experiences that continues to prove to them that I know what I'm talking about. I have their answer, and I I also understand what the issue is that they're facing. So this is the work in your marketing campaign is to convey all of those things on all of those different platforms. And this is your unique advantage, your unique proposition. However you wanna phrase that, it needs to be communicated in a lot of different ways on a lot of different platforms all at the same time so that these people who are experiencing you, the things you have to say, and your brand are getting them in various locations so that it's reinforcing the same idea across all of these platforms.
Karin:So we want to make sure that your strategic advantage is an experience that they're having. And then at the same time, what is also happening when you are appearing on all of those different platforms is this is the way AI wants to find you as well. So the way that this AI search thing is working is that they are taking all of the information that is available about you across all of these different platforms, and AI is deciding which platforms, websites, sources are the most reliable and say the most accurate thing. And then AI is making a decision that will give that singular answer. So when someone goes to AI and searches who is the best truck accident attorney in Cleveland.
Karin:AI is going to take not just your website because that only has a certain amount of clout. They will take your website, but more often than that, they will take what other people are saying about you first and then, a combination of all of the different platforms. And then they will evaluate that very quickly and decide, is this person does this person have a score that is greater than or equal to this other person? Am I finding them in more locations? Is the message repeating and recurring in the same type of way that is telling me that this person really has knows and understands truck accidents in Cleveland in a way that is also shown to be the best result.
Karin:So are there reviews? Are there people saying positive things combined with a certain level of expertise? And also in comparison to the other results. And so you can't really see what that's looking like on AI search as much as you could on Google search. So on Google search, you could pretty easily do that search for a truck accident lawyer in Cleveland and see, oh, okay.
Karin:Here's where I'm ranking. Here's the other things that are coming up. Here's kind of the lay of the land. Here's what's happening. And whereas with AI search, you just get the answer, and you don't necessarily know what calculations went into that answer.
Karin:So what I like to do in order to evaluate the types of things that AI is using to make that calculation is to look at something called a knowledge panel. And these knowledge panels are something that Google was very big on for a while, and it still has it. And I do anticipate that this will probably change over time, but it's it's available now. And what a knowledge panel is is it's a different type of a search result. This is not just that search result over to the right side that gives you the name and address of a business and some reviews.
Karin:It's also not the ads that appear up at the top. This is different. So if you Google my name, which is spelled k a r I n c o n r o y, you'll see that even before you're done typing in the search for my name and before you've hit enter, you'll see that it kind of pops up as a pre predetermined answer, and there's a photo of me. And so that right there, first of all, is a clue that there's a knowledge panel on me. And then when you click on that, the result that it has my name with the photo, you'll see that your Google search results take up this this knowledge panel within your Google search results take up probably three quarters of your page if you're on a desktop.
Karin:And this to me indicates the level of importance that Google has for these search results. Because if you think about the quantity of real estate that Google indicates for a business, which is over in that right column, It's maybe, what, 25% of the page real estate. And then the ads are way up at the top, and that's maybe, you know, 10 to 20%. But this is a good 60% of the page that Google is dedicating to this knowledge panel. And what you see in this knowledge panel is not so much my own links that talk about myself.
Karin:They are links from other places where I've appeared, links from platforms where my name is prominent, reviews, articles I've written in other places. So it's kind of like the old school idea of backlinks, but in a visual search result. And what this can tell you is this is kind of what AI is basing its results on. So if you have a knowledge panel or if you find that there's a knowledge panel on you and you haven't claimed it, for sure do that. But then make sure that you're feeding it the right sources so you can tell the Google knowledge panel, oh, here's a couple other places where I appeared as a speaker or as a podcast guest or whatever the case might be.
Karin:And these places have some good reputation, and these places are supporting the idea of who I say I am. So for example, when you pull up my knowledge panel, you'll see that it says I'm a legal marketing consultant. And all of this the top results usually tie in with that idea. So they're also sort of voting for me saying, yeah, she is a legal marketing consultant. And we're having her come over here and write an article, or we're having her speak over here and talk about being a legal marketing consultant because this is the thing she talks about, and we are validating this.
Karin:And so this is a really good way to sort of pull back the curtain of what's happening on those AI searches and see it in the sort of Google framework. And so what we're talking about in terms of all of those different platforms and the backlinks and the appearing on these different platforms is authority and demonstrating your expertise. And so in order for that to show up well, you need to be on different platforms, and they need to be voting for you. And they need to be saying yes. She knows what she's talking about, and this is the topic.
Karin:And we are using our own platform to lend her our audience in such a way that we we think that they will care about what she is saying, similar to what I'm doing today on this podcast. So this is a complicated process, and it involves typically what was a lot of PR in kind of old school marketing. So using the media and borrowing their platform and recognizing that, for example, if you had a media appearance on CNN, that CNN already has this established audience and you're going to borrow it for a few minutes. You're gonna appear on that platform, and you are going to validate that platform. That platform is gonna validate you.
Karin:And there's a little handshake there that that happens that says this person is an authority on this topic that we're talking about. So if you are also looking for this type of topic, this is the person you should reach out to because we have. And so we we're trying to tell you that this is a good idea. So establishing your authority, showing up on other podcast, being on other links besides your own website is only gonna become more and more important as time goes on because it sends these signals to Google, to AI search, but also to your own audience that, hey. I've got a following.
Karin:This is where you can find me in in all of these cases. So when it comes to building this authority, you need to create a system for this. And it is not about putting a system behind your ego and just boosting your law firm and talking about the case successes that you've had in your law firm. Imagine if you were watching CNN and there was a lawyer talking about a specific case that was coming up. And the first thing they started by talking was, Hey, can I tell you about how we won a case like this?
Karin:And we made this many millions of dollars. And let me tell you all about where our partners went to law school. Well, this is the essential thing that a lot of lawyers and law firms are doing on their website. They're leading with this really kind of odd first impression And they're leading with this idea of, let me tell you how much money we made. Let me tell you about us.
Karin:Let me tell you about where our our partners went to law school. And this is not at all what people are coming to their websites to find out. They're coming to the websites to find out, do you understand my problem? Can you solve my problem? And then tell show me that you understand it and you can solve it.
Karin:And then maybe I will want some information that is supporting that to show me that that is true, and then give me a quick path to what our next steps are. And if you get in the way of those steps, I'm gonna go somewhere else. I do not care where you went to law school unless that somehow relates to my problem, which I have yet to see that happen. But what I care about is my problem, why I'm coming to your website, and if you can solve that. It's like if you were going to shop for a pair of shoes and you went to the Nordstrom website And all that was all over the Nordstrom website is, can we tell you about our founder and where he went to college?
Karin:And you're like, I'm just looking for a pair of shoes. Can you show me the shoes? And they just kept getting in the way and saying, let us give you a whole article about where he went to college. Let us tell you about the various things that he did when he was a child. And this person is just frustrated and annoyed because they're just trying to get to their shoes.
Karin:So once again, think of it as this very singular problem, and you have the answer or you don't. And you want to provide the clarity that you are the authority, you are the expertise, you have solved this problem before, and here's how you get in touch with us in order to make sure that you can take the next steps. So let's also talk about the three phases of marketing. So when it comes to thinking about your authority and thinking about your broad scale marketing plan, there are three main phases of marketing. You are either planning, you are building, or you are growing.
Karin:If you are planning, you are creating that strategy, you are thinking about how to develop your authority, how you are going to get out there and borrow people's platforms, how you are going to speak to your clients, who you're serving, what you're known for, also what you don't do. You are expecting to be at that top of the funnel, the marketing funnel, which is like an upside down triangle, and you are expecting leads and visibility. The first visibility and then leads. And the expectation at this phase in terms of numbers and revenue should be low. This is where you're building.
Karin:This is what you're spending the time setting the foundation. Then phase two and I said a minute ago, this is what you're building. This is what you're planning. Then the phase two is what what you're building. So the building part is when the assets come in.
Karin:So planning part, you've got strategy. You're thinking in terms of laying that foundation, thinking about your culture, thinking about your teams. How are you going to approach the people who you work with, how are you going to communicate what are the things that are making you different, and how are you gonna communicate those? When you get to phase two and you're building it, now we're taking those messages and those words, and we're putting them into assets like your website, your brand, your logo, these somewhat tangible pieces of your marketing. This part also can sometimes feel slow because it's probably no surprise that when we get to phase three, the growth phase, this is the part that most people only think of in terms of marketing.
Karin:And this is the part that people try to jump and kind of fast track, and they skip those first two phases. So in this second phase, have a reality check with yourself. Are you still building it? Are you still having a conversation with your marketing team about color schemes and how to convey that message and putting the final touches on your website and also looking at your bottom line and looking at the numbers and and getting frustrated that this work is not actually producing revenue. Because let's be realistic about it.
Karin:You know, this is not where the revenue is gonna come in. This is in the building phase. This is what we're putting the time in so that it's done well so that the growth phase goes well, but we're not there yet. So just make sure that it's it's hard, but we need patience. And I regularly say that two of the most underrated parts of marketing that are most critical are patience and consistency.
Karin:So here in phase two and in phase one, we're working on our patience. And so we're not having instant traction. We're setting up a system. We're possibly putting together email campaigns, and we're putting all the work in there, and we're testing, making sure it's working right. You know, these things take time.
Karin:Okay. So then we get to phase three. That's the growth phase. This is when everything starts to amplify. This is potentially going out into your network, finding speaking engagements, finding podcast appearances that you can show up on.
Karin:And now you've got those words. You've got the messaging. You've got your strategy so that when you sit down to prepare for whatever it might be, the speaking engagement, PR, media engagements, podcasts, you kind of already have a core structure of what you're gonna talk about. Because you already know this is the plan for our firm. This is how we're gonna grow.
Karin:This is how we're different. So I'm gonna make sure to focus in on the differences. And then you're gonna just put some icing on top about whatever the topic of the day is and whatever relates to that audience that you're speaking. So make sure that you're focusing on the phases that you're in in order to not get stuck and frustrated with the process, and, make sure that you are not trying to amplify before you've clarified. So then the next phase the next thing I wanna talk about is AI.
Karin:And hopefully, you haven't just jumped to this part of the podcast because AI is the topic that everyone is talking about of the day. And what I wanna talk about is how things have quickly, quickly changed in terms of AI. So when it first came out, it basically looked sort of like a Google search, and then you could ask it to do certain things, and it would kind of come out with these kind of cool responses. And for a long time, for the first, I'd say roughly a year, possibly even oh, you know, a lot of people are still doing it this way. It was a prompt engine.
Karin:And so a lot of people were offering these prompt recipes and just figuring out how to basically give a very specific set of instructions to whatever your AI of choice is, and then it would spit that out. And it that was fantastic. And it was it was creating efficiencies, but we have moved beyond that. And now we are at the at this point of agentic AI. And Claude Cowork is one way that this is all working together.
Karin:And what this is working with is this sort of multistep reasoning, and it's it gets kind of technical and complicated. And there's so many other podcasts and videos out there that I can offer some links in the notes for that will go into much more in-depth detail about how this all works and how you can work it within your firm. But I just want to bring this up in terms of recognizing how fast this is changing, recognizing that it's way beyond just prompts now, And how this works for especially for women led law firm owners is that it's much less linear. So when you think about those kind of prompt and response process that it used to be with AI, That is kind of that latter response thing that, you know, that's more kind of male driven and, you know, what we were talking about at the beginning. But now for this agentic thing, it's basically taking all of these different pieces of what you're adding in and what it knows, what's it's finding on the Internet, mixing them all together, and it is much less of a linear process.
Karin:And it just reduces so much cognitive load, and it creates these crazy efficiencies. And it's it's just gonna be fascinating to see how this all goes forward. And so I just wanted to bring that up because it is a topic of the day. I do think there is a unique advantage for women in their less linear thought process when it comes to this type of work and being open to these new technologies and kind of leading with an interest and curiosity as opposed to concern and fear. And so take a look at that.
Karin:It's, you know, it's a great it's moving very fast, and there's there's so much to be aware of with AI, how it integrates with your law firm, and especially for marketing. So the things that I just wanna close with are that women are already leading with systems, relationships, and long term less linear thinking. And as we move forward in technology driven world, I really think we have an advantage. And I think it's something that men don't talk about as much. And even when I've talked to women, they downplay or they kind of talk around it.
Karin:But I I definitely think it's something that we should focus on, recognize our differences, and recognize that as a strategic advantage. I also wanted to mention that we have a new service called the authority tour, which is this really cool podcast tour where we put all of this work behind getting you podcasts and media appearances, but then also build an entire marketing system around it. So we reach out, find those podcasts that are a good fit for you, your practice area, the things that you're talking about, and have a good audience that you can borrow. And then we make sure that we support that with a media kit, present you to those podcasts, and then we make sure to market it like crazy. And so we promote it on your own website, on your social media, and we can do ads and and, you know, whatever else fits into your marketing budget.
Karin:But just creating a system around developing your authority is a huge project, and we are here for it. And so reach out, and we will provide the links in the show notes for that as well. But think about how you're building your authority, and this is gonna not only build your firm. It's not only gonna build you up within your network, but it's also going to be the thing that is the leading driver of search success and not just search engine Google type success because that is very rapidly changing. But the type of search that AI is using to validate whether you are the answer that it is going to provide.
Karin:So consider how you're doing that. Also consider your authority that is offline. Consider what you're doing within your network, in your speaking engagements, all of those things that are not the typical, you know, Google Ads and pay per click and all of those things that marketing has been very, very focused on for the last decade or so. It's it's changing so fast, and it's coming back to these core marketing concepts that I find fascinating and so refreshing that true expertise and and your authority is built in those same ways. Showing up, speaking, talking about what you know that you know, and being that expert, and then making sure that the word gets out about your expertise and authority.
Karin:And that is, you know, coming all back to if you are the expert and the authority, you have an advantage in this market going forward. And so now it's just a matter of taking your expertise and making sure that the right people are hearing it. So I just wanna thank Davina again for letting me take over her podcast. And I will leave a whole bunch of links in the show notes below. But thanks again, and this was a fun conversation.
Intro:If you're ready to create more of what you truly desire in your business and your life, then you'll want to visit us at wealthywomanlawyer.com to learn more about how we help our clients create wealth generating law firms with ease.