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The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel is a transformative and supportive Podcast, dedicated to helping those who are, or have been, abused by narcissists to heal from the ravages of narcissistic abuse. Our show is a lifeline for those who are looking for next steps in their emotional and psychological healing, offering expert guidance and practical solutions for those who are in narcissistic relationships or are rebuilding their lives after narcissistic abuse. The hosts are Attorney Padideh Jafari and Jon McKenney who have helped hundreds of people in their narcissistic abuse recovery and know the journey personally in their own lives.
If you're married to a narcissist and you're about to go through a divorce or you're going through one, you have to understand that this is a fight to the death over the kids in some respects. That the narcissist is weaponizing the kids to hurt you.
Voiceover:A caring heart, a guiding light, leading us through the darkest night. Escape the grip of a narcissist on our journey to recovery bliss. This is the Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel.
Jon McKenney:Hodita, good morning. How are you today?
Padideh Jafari:I'm doing well. How are you?
Jon McKenney:I'm doing really good. You're in San Diego this time around recordings, a little different from last go round.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. Actually from where I live in Orange County, San Diego's, really the next street over from where I live. Oh, really? Yes.
Jon McKenney:I didn't I didn't realize that.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. Because I live in South Orange County, and so it's a twenty five minute ride, and I love driving here. So I'm at the Olas Media today, and Fantastic. Really looking forward to our conversation today.
Jon McKenney:Wonderful. And our conversation, the last couple of podcasts we've done, we not had guests. What we decided we were gonna go do is kind of leverage some of our own strengths and have conversations that perhaps other people don't have sometimes. And what we wanna do here is to go talk about how to win a custody battle. You're a divorce attorney, and these are the kinds of things that you are working on all the time.
Jon McKenney:And I I wanna make sure that we we leverage your strengths, to go help our audience of people, because there are a lot of them out there who have narcissists and are married to narcissists in some capacity, some some way, shape, or form. And they're having to go deal with this, particularly with their children. So so first question is is it winnable? Can can can it can it be won? Because we we know that narcissists tend to what's the exaggerate, lie, gaslight, and I'm sure they they don't change when they're in front of a judge either.
Jon McKenney:So what's the process of of protecting your kids and and and getting your kids back and those kinds of things and winning a custody battle.
Padideh Jafari:Well, I wanna just say that, I've been a divorce attorney and custody attorney for over twenty two years. And in the last five to six years I've learned about narcissists and cluster B personality disorders. And one thing that all of this education has taught me is that there's no winning with a narcissist. You don't win while you're dating them. You don't win while you're married to them.
Padideh Jafari:And you're sure as shit not going to win when you're divorcing them because they are going to I always say this to my client, it's like you're on the Titanic with your narcissist, You're going through a divorce. Imagine you're on the Titanic and instead of throwing you a life vest, they're actually trying to drown you before they drown themselves. So imagine that visually, I'm very visual so I always like to tell my clients these visual things. Imagine that's what it's like. So there is no actual winning.
Padideh Jafari:In a divorce. Are going to be separating assets, debts, debts you might not have even known about, especially when it comes to a narcissist because they always have this other life that you don't even know about. And then you're trying to sort of do what's amicable and fair and in the best interest of your child and they are trying to drown you. So there's no winning.
Jon McKenney:You make a really good point there. And we we should probably say this upfront. When you're divorcing a narcissist, this is not like a regular divorce in a lot of ways. There there are people out there who have fell in love and fell out of love and have respect for their spouse, and they respect them not only as a spouse, but as a parent. And they decide that they they want to divorce as peacefully as possible, and and and champion the idea that both parents still need to see the kid and to be involved in their lives, even though mom and dad are not in love anymore.
Jon McKenney:They they they find a way to go do this peacefully. This is not the case with a narcissist. It just it just doesn't happen.
Padideh Jafari:Correct. So those people, yes. So they might be in the litigation phase for a couple of months in the beginning, But they soon realize that litigation is not the way to go and they want to mediate. And so we help them negotiate and mediate a custody settlement that makes sense for both of the parties and for their children. So that is very different.
Padideh Jafari:Or they come to mediation or collaborative law which is also something that we practice. And we can talk about those at another time. But for a true narcissist, they want to make sure that they go the litigation route. Now they might trick you. They might say, well, let's do mediation first.
Padideh Jafari:It's a waste of time.
Jon McKenney:Is it just because you can't resolve anything with a narcissist? There's no sense in mediating? You just need somebody to
Padideh Jafari:Well
Jon McKenney:kind of
Padideh Jafari:With a narcissist, they're always thinking 10 to 20 steps ahead of you because they're playing chess while you're playing checkers. And remember one thing, some of our clients that come into the office they've never heard about narcissism. So they're just thinking, Okay, you know, my spouse was toxic, my spouse was cheating on me, my spouse was sort of now they know sort of gaslighting. They'll say like, my spouse was gaslighting but so they don't really know, right? So they come into a divorce attorney's office and for the first time and you're like, well, spouse sounds sort of narcissistic or other cluster B personality disorders and they're like, what?
Padideh Jafari:What does that even mean? So then you have to sort of educate the client of what that means and tell them to go read some books, look at YouTube, look at channels like yourself, male victims, a female narcissist. I'm always sending my male clients to you just to kind of educate them about what narcissism is. And obviously we cannot diagnose someone as a narcissist. We're lawyers, we're not therapists.
Padideh Jafari:But people have narcissistic tendencies, right, which can be equally as bad. So that's how I educate my clients. But nowadays clients call and they say I'm divorcing a narcissist because they've already looked up the law firm. We have a lot of education about narcissism on our website. And then also they've heard this podcast.
Padideh Jafari:So they're like, my spouse is a narcissist. So what we do is a strategy session and we make sure that we sort of follow this guideline. It could definitely change. But it's a strategy session of how do we get from the first document which is the petition for divorce in California and the settlement and trial. And so there's a lot obviously that goes in between that but the first thing I tell clients is you need to start documenting if you haven't been.
Padideh Jafari:Journaling is very important because you want to know dates and times. Because a narcissist, what they'll do is they'll start to lie and manipulate and you're thinking, wait a minute, did I say that? Did they pick up the child here or there? And you won't remember. So I start to say journal and if they're not good at journaling, which I know you're great at journaling because you did that during your divorce, but I say just do a timeline and just put it in your notes like when things are happening that you
Jon McKenney:can refer back to What kind of things are you interested? Like what kind of things matter in a journal or in a timeline? If you're keeping a list of things, what kind of things do you want in there? You want conversations with the kids? Do you want me understand should be in a journal, what kind of documentation should be in a journal of sorts.
Padideh Jafari:So if they're coming for a divorce from the date that they're sitting with a divorce attorney, I want to know going forward, when is the co parent we don't co parent with a narcissist. Actually counter parenting. They're calling
Jon McKenney:Anti parent.
Padideh Jafari:Anti parenting, but counter parenting. But I wanna know sort of when are they picking up the child? When are they spending time with the child? How many hours? I want you to go back and if my client doesn't know this, they should know this.
Padideh Jafari:Like who's the principal at the school, who are their teachers, get me their grades. I want to know all of that because what the narcissist will do is say that my client now is not a good parent. And so I want to start to strategize that if you don't know then you need to know. Like ask your child what's your favorite color? Spend more because listen, sometimes you're not thinking about this, right?
Padideh Jafari:You're just parenting your child but see if there's any allergies. Like when was the last time you went to the pediatrician? Start to do those things and document it because that becomes really important. Because the first thing that happens is we'll file for the petition, they'll file for the response, and then what's called a request for order. And you're saying like, I was a primary parent, right?
Padideh Jafari:And they're saying, no, you weren't. You were an absentee parent. And so that's why we want to make sure that we have this sort of documented like, No, I was the parent that was always dropping off and picking up. I actually had court yesterday. I was in a trial for seven hours, John.
Padideh Jafari:That's why I'm so tired today. And it was in that case, dad was saying he was the, stay at home parent, but the two oldest daughters, 12 and eight, don't want anything to do with them because he's lying. And so I had to show, you know, the judge that like, no, my client was the primary parent and this is why. Sometimes when you do daycare, have to sign your child out. So we were able to get that and say, dad never picked up the two daughters from daycare, and here's the evidence of it.
Padideh Jafari:Because remember that judges like to see evidence and documents. They don't like it when you go to court and start name calling. And because they've heard this word narcissism now, because that's a trendy word unfortunately, and it shouldn't be, but it's a trendy word, they don't want to hear it. They're like, unless the person is diagnosed as a narcissist and I want an expert to say that in court you can't diagnose your spouse. So give me the documents to show that you were the primary parent.
Jon McKenney:So so ultimately, you're trying to build a case, for custody, and I'm I'm assuming primary custody. And then there's there's shared custody as well, and there there's gotta be tension in this. Right? So if I'm in a position and unfortunately, I was not, didn't have to deal with child custody. I waited till my kids got out of high school, intentionally, so I didn't have to deal with that and child support and all that other nonsense, and that would have changed things for me.
Jon McKenney:But when people are doing this and are married, find themselves married to a narcissist, whether they know it or not, they know the narcissist isn't good for the kids. What are you fighting for? Are you fighting for shared custody? Are you fighting for soul custody? How do you feel about, do you wanna take them away from that parent, even though they're biological father or mother?
Jon McKenney:How do you figure that out?
Padideh Jafari:So each case is different obviously. So every case, I mean, I've been practicing for twenty two years, like I said, and each case is different. But with the narcissistic cases there's very much similarities and there's a blueprint I like to say because the narcissistic parent is always going to say that the, I call them the innocent spouse, even though I don't mean innocent like they did everything right in the but the person that doesn't have the personality disorder, they're always going to say the narcissist is always going to say that that parent is not a good parent. And they haven't been parenting and they want sole custody. And so because they are very much extremists you have to build your case to say no that's not true.
Padideh Jafari:And either you're fighting for primary custody or what California more and more likes to see is the fiftyfifty equal timeshare they call The 223, Monday through Wednesday drop off at school, the other parent takes the child Wednesday after school till Friday. And then parent A that had it Monday picks up the child Friday after school to Monday morning. So that's sort of what they like to see is the 223. There's the 225, and then there's every other week. That's really the parenting that could potentially happen if you have fiftyfifty.
Padideh Jafari:If you have ahead. If you have primary custody, then obviously it could be one parent sees the child Wednesday for dinner, after school until dinner, and then every other weekend. But courts in California, especially in Southern California where we practice, they are working towards fiftyfifty. They just are. They want both parents now because it used to be when we started practicing law twenty two years ago, mostly the husbands were working and so they couldn't have that sort of fifty-fifty because it would, conflict with their work schedule.
Padideh Jafari:Now because women and mothers are working more and more, courts like to see that fifty-fifty or even like if it's forty-sixty of, you know, custody arrangement.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. Interestingly enough, I mean, if you're if you're married to a narcissist and you're about to go through a divorce or you're going through one, you you have to understand that this is a fight to the death over the kids in some respects.
Padideh Jafari:Yes. %. That that
Jon McKenney:the the narcissist is weaponizing the kids to hurt you. And in in many, many situations, they are going to lie. They'll cheat. They'll falsify documentation that it will be hard full full court press to keep you, the victim, from from perhaps even seeing your your kids. And I Yes.
Jon McKenney:I I know men that I've I've spent time in conversation with over the years who who have wives who have made up stories about them so that they're reported to child services to try and and keep them from their kids and do a pretty damn effective job at that. So these stories are ridiculous. I mean, some of these guys are millions of dollars in debt defending themselves against the lies of the narcissist. So this is not for the faint of heart. You say they're ant you say they're, you know, they're counter parents, they're antiparents, and anti human even in some respects.
Jon McKenney:They they will lie about absolutely anything to win custody of their children and to try and keep you as the good parent even out of the picture.
Padideh Jafari:Yes. So journaling is the first strategy. The second is keeping communication on a parenting app. There's two that we use in Southern California and judges love these apps. They're called Talking Parents, which I just did an interview with Talking Parents.
Padideh Jafari:So go read that interview on their website. So Talking Parents is one of them and it's free for the parents. The other one is Our Family Wizard. The thing I like about Our Family Wizard is that the attorney can have access to the conversation and so can the judge. So we can log on sometimes on behalf of our client and see what the other spouse or the narcissistic spouse has written sort of help and guide our clients into how to respond.
Padideh Jafari:Because remember that when the victim, I don't like to call them victim, I like to call them surviving spouse, when the survivor walks in they're sort of like how do I respond? They're triggered by everything that the narcissist is doing and sometimes with our Family Wizard we can log on and see and I'll tell my client like you have to respond in one or two sentences maximum. Cannot talk about anything that deals with emotions. You can't talk about anything that deals with the actual divorce process. You have to just keep it to talk about your child.
Padideh Jafari:So those are also, that's the second strategy is to get the parents quickly on this app which makes the narcissist sort of have to play nice in the sandbox knowing that at any point instead of a text message which you know people now and narcissists know this you can delete text messages. You can't do that on these two apps. I think there's another one called Onward. So those are the three apps. So definitely get on a parenting app quickly with the advice of counsel, obviously.
Padideh Jafari:And that way everything is documented. And you can also put expenses on there, John. So if they owe you something from a copay, you can put that on there. And the good thing about the app is you can see when they open it, like there's a read receipt. So you can see when they open it, you can see when they responded.
Padideh Jafari:And judges like to say you have to respond within twenty four hours.
Jon McKenney:And those apps, if I'm not mistaken, are also used later on after the divorce to continue to make sure, parents are playing nice, with respect to their kids. I know I was in a situation with one of guys I know and have kinda coached over the last couple of years is, his ex didn't wanna bring the kid, you know, let the kid come over for their custody. So he's having to go escalate this and I think an app like that might really help in some situations. You can see, and a judge can see exactly what's going on and who's not playing nice and who is. I imagine it's very hard sometimes for a narcissist to play nice when they're not nice.
Padideh Jafari:Right. And it's funny because, not funny but ironic, but you can see from when the client first comes in how the narcissist is responding and then you say, okay, we need to make this a court order that they respond on the app. And then you could see I mean, I've seen this so many times where the narcissist totally switches, right? And they're like, dear so and so. And they start to play nice for a while.
Padideh Jafari:And you're just like, Okay, I can see that they're trying to put a good front for the judge. But it doesn't matter because at the end of the day, this keeps them as accountable as you can keep a narcissist. Can't really keep them accountable. So that's the second strategy. The third strategy is do not retaliate.
Padideh Jafari:I have seen this, John, blow up in people's faces. You cannot retaliate against a narcissist. You as the sympathetic, empathetic surviving spouse, you do not have the tools to fight this battle with the narcissist. If you did, you'd still be married to them. So Yes.
Padideh Jafari:What you need to do is completely remove yourself from the situation. I mean, I'm a big advocate of therapy, as you know. Other divorce attorneys that are my friends and colleagues, they don't like that I say if you're going through a divorce seek therapy. It doesn't have to be therapy for the rest of your life it could be three sessions or seven sessions. But if you're dealing with a narcissist in court you want to make sure you know what they're doing and you want to make sure that you stay as grounded and stoic as humanly possible because they will trigger you.
Padideh Jafari:Their job is to make your life a living hell, and they're very good at accomplishing that.
Jon McKenney:And I would guess that throughout the process, is constantly from the narcissist, expect the unexpected. You don't think they're gonna go do something, they're absolutely gonna go do it. And they will they will they will turn every screw they can possibly turn to try and sway it their way and unpredictably so. You think you might think you've got resolution, and then the next day, it's gone. Yes.
Jon McKenney:I know I I know I I have a friend who was in divorce court for five years. He was trying to get this divorce done, and I I don't know whether his his wife had some narcissistic tendencies. She was ultimately just a very difficult person. And it was five years of this before they'd actually come to resolution. So it's a constant battle at the highest level and in the most difficult circumstances.
Jon McKenney:Right. And therapy and things like that also, you it it's also a time where financially, you don't know you don't know what's gonna happen on the other end. You enter into this, you know, deconstruction period where money doesn't go where it once went and jobs may be different and they may not be. And then you've got child support and all of that. And you don't know what the other side of the equation financially is going to look like.
Jon McKenney:I mean, are people that drop hundreds of thousands of dollars on a divorce. Yes. I'm sure. And child custody on top of that. So so it becomes a time where money is also uncertain adding to the stress.
Jon McKenney:And by and large, I think you'd agree with this statement. The more difficult the more the more people fight, the more expensive it is.
Padideh Jafari:Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And I wanna say two things. The first thing is the longest divorce I've ever been involved in was twelve years.
Jon McKenney:Oh my gosh.
Padideh Jafari:In LA County, downtown.
Jon McKenney:You're kidding.
Padideh Jafari:No, Stanley Moss Twelve years? Twelve years. The child at that point was over 18, okay? But they were fighting for royalties and things of that nature. Yes, twelve years is the longest.
Padideh Jafari:And then one thing I want to say which this can sound so self serving but it's important I think for me to say this as a practitioner. What happens is a lot of times, not every time but a lot of times, we're representing the innocent spouse, right? We discussed that in the beginning what that means, right? The non narcissistic spouse. What happens is that they will get tired of playing nice in the sandbox.
Padideh Jafari:And what happens is they will turn on the attorneys because I had this just happened, the end of last year and they will say you know, you're not advocating enough, you're not doing this, you're not, they're fighting, you know, they're fighting dirty, they're lying, they're, you know, forging documents, they're doing all these things and you're not doing that. Like, and so what happens, John, is they'll turn on and I've had this happen so many times and I'll go back to the client and say, we are an ethical firm, we have morals, we are not going to play by these rules, we're not going to start manufacturing things that don't exist, we are not going to lie on your behalf. And so sometimes what happens is you'll see even though the client wasn't the narcissist, they start to get those narcissistic tendencies like it almost transfers over from one table to the next. And you can see because they're like fighting fair in family court is sort of not the best solution sometimes when you're dealing with a narcissist. So I'll say and what I said to that client was I don't think that our law firm is the right law firm for you.
Padideh Jafari:If you wanna start playing dirty like the narcissist's ex is playing dirty and the narcissist's ex attorney, then maybe you need to go and get an attorney that's going to lie and manufacture evidence and forge documents, but that's not going to be our law firm. And I don't think this is discussed enough.
Jon McKenney:Actually, this is a good question. I just thought of this. So do narcissists often go through more than one attorney? Yes. Because perhaps the attorney is not being aggressive enough or manufacturing things like you say.
Jon McKenney:So they go through more than one attorney. Yes. The second question would be, does the victim often wind up going through more than one attorney?
Padideh Jafari:Yes. What happens is the narcissist definitely goes through, I would say, between three to seven attorneys from the beginning of the divorce to the end. So I would say about three to seven. That's what I've seen the And then the innocent spouse, they will usually go anywhere from one to three attorneys. So if they get this, if they understand what I'm telling you from the beginning of when we first started this conversation, if they start to do the documentation, doing the app, And the third thing I said was not engaging, not going tit for tat because you cannot win against a narcissist if you're going tit for tat.
Padideh Jafari:Because don't forget, they're lying, manipulating, manufacturing evidence. They're forging documents. I've seen this multiple times in court. What will happen is you will start to get very angry and you will turn on your attorney because you're saying, Why aren't you doing the same things they're doing? So I've seen it where a client will start with us and end with us.
Padideh Jafari:And I've seen it where they get really mad and either they'll self represent because they're out of money or they will get an attorney that is really, you know, there's a fine line, right? And they will just go beyond that fine line. And believe it or not, in LA County, we all, the ethical attorneys know those attorneys. We know about them. And so I had a situation where I was recommending because our law firm was too busy and so we have colleagues that we recommend.
Padideh Jafari:And my colleague, she said, well, who is the opposing counsel? And I said the name and she said, oh no, I'm never taking a case against that law firm because they lie, they manufacture evidence and they're actually the narcissist too. And so those law firms are we know them. We know that they lie for their clients and they don't care. And as long as their client is paying them, the narcissist is paying the narcissist dick attorney, they'll take the case.
Padideh Jafari:But a lot of times those also blow up, right? Because once the money is gone, like let's say there's a house and there's equity in the house and the house is sold, so there's some liquid cash there to pay your attorney. Once you can't pay your attorney, the case is either going to settle quickly or that narcissistic client will go to another attorney. So as soon as they don't like what they hear, the narcissist They're gone. They're gone.
Padideh Jafari:And I've had and I tell my clients this, Okay, we won this battle in court, but I'm going to give it thirty days before I get a substitution of attorney where the narcissist is going to get another attorney. And my clients are like, Are you a fortune teller? I'm like, no. I just know how the narcissist thinks, unfortunately, because I've been battling them for so many years.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. So that I again, do do have you found also that that narcissists are are seeking out narcissistic attorneys, like birds of a feather flock together? Oh. And and not only are you having to deal with the narcissist, but you're now having to compound that with another narcissistic attorney who's literally forging or faking information for the case just to win and continue the weaponizing against the victim.
Padideh Jafari:Absolutely. We do, at our law firm, we do a lot of vetting in the beginning before we accept a client because we don't want to be representing narcissists. Because if we do represent the narcissist, guess what happens? They're not going to last as a client at the firm very long, right? Because we talked about the ethics and the morals of the law firm.
Padideh Jafari:And so, absolutely. So what happens is the narcissist usually will find a narcissistic attorney that won't fact check anything they say. They'll just put forth whatever narrative the narcissist is claiming, which is untrue. And so they'll just keep coming to court and telling the judge the same thing. They won't have documents, right?
Padideh Jafari:They won't have those, in the beginning I talked about those documents and sort of journaling. They won't have that. But they'll just say this narrative over and over and that's what the narcissist does. Like they say this narrative over and over and eventually you're like, I think I believe this now. And so they're trying to sort of trick the judge into believing this narrative.
Padideh Jafari:And so the other side, which is what we represent, we have to come with actual documentation and the law. The law matters to judges, believe it or not. I mean, think some people would argue with me on that. But this is the law. This is what the law says.
Padideh Jafari:We have documentation saying that our client has been the primary parent. And so we would like to continue the status quo going forward. The other thing we can do, the fourth, strategy is get an evaluation. There's two types in Southern California. And you can ask for minor's counsel, which is an attorney for the child or the children.
Padideh Jafari:That also can sort of help because that's a third party neutral that is coming to court and testifying before the judge on behalf of the child. That's like a fourth strategy. Again, that costs money. So if for some reason you don't have that kind of money to shell out, then you're not going to get that third party neutral for your child. It is listen, it is very, very difficult.
Padideh Jafari:I mean, I'm not going to sugarcoat this. We decided that we were not gonna sugarcoat anything and be very raw on this podcast from the very beginning. It is very difficult to divorce a narcissist. I would say it's hard to get a divorce but it is a % more difficult with a narcissist. Not a hundred or a thousand, a hundred thousand, it's a % more difficult to divorce a narcissist because they're constantly going to be lying, manipulating, gaslighting, projecting, and now they're doing this to the judge.
Padideh Jafari:And let's say that the judge rules for you. It doesn't mean that the narcissist is going to say, oh, okay, I have to now abide by the court order. They won't do that. They don't like authority. As you know, narcissists hate authority.
Padideh Jafari:So you'll have to then file a contempt action, which is very expensive. So it's not like once you get a court order, you're in the clear. Now you have to file contempt actions and you have to go back to court. And so it is very, very difficult.
Jon McKenney:Is it harder? And my passion is men who have been through all this stuff is it tougher for a man to wait custody?
Padideh Jafari:I want to say with the right attorney no
Jon McKenney:Okay.
Padideh Jafari:But if you have an attorney that does not understand narcissism, and this can be again self serving, but I don't want it to be. If have an attorney that does not understand narcissism, then as a man, yes, it's going to be a lot harder for you. Because already I think that the courts, it is 2025, but I do think that there still is that bias against men and having primary custody or equal timeshare with your child, which is the fiftyfifty, which courts don't like to say numbers, so we like to say timeshare. So, or parenting time, you know, courts like to say parenting time now. They used to call it visitation, but then somebody came up with, you know, you're not visiting your child, so okay, parenting time.
Padideh Jafari:But we all know what we're talking about here. So yes, it is difficult if you don't have an attorney that understands narcissism. Not that we go into court and ever mention the word narcissism, but we can show that what the other side is saying is just not true. As you know have clients that are divorcing narcissists who are men and we ask them to do that documentation and they're like well I don't know how to journal and I'm like well then that's fine then take you know on a Word document or on your notes on your iPhone, just write down like when you picked up the child. If you had to take the child to the pediatrician, did you go?
Padideh Jafari:Why didn't you go? You know? So all these things. And so if you don't have the right child, if you don't have the right attorney and you're divorcing a narcissist, whether you're male or female, God help Because it's going to take that five to seven years we talked about earlier.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. Or worse maybe if that's the case too. I can't imagine the people having to go through this. And again, the end result is whether or not you get to spend time with your kid. Correct.
Jon McKenney:And it's a ridiculous process. It's a hard process. The narcissist makes it incredibly difficult on top of it, and and you can still really lose time with your kid. And it and just because the courts say, okay, this is this is how much time you get with your kid, doesn't mean that the narcissist is even gonna follow that on the other side of it, which which is more difficult. So then again, you have to get into legal action and more money and more consequences, and it becomes kind of a nightmare.
Jon McKenney:And that's why we, you know, we really do say that the narcissist with respect to parenting is is like the anti parent. Yes. It's it's what what was it you said? It's like it's like fighting with the devil.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. It's like parent no. I said it was like parenting with the devil. Here, you're trying to get away from, you know, this abusive relationship and marriage that you've been in. Correct?
Padideh Jafari:And now the court
Jon McKenney:And you're at at your lowest. At your At that point in time. Especially if you've been married to a narcissist. If if this is your highest, lowest is at the floor because you you you you've you've been gaslighted and you're emotionally in a bad place anyways. It's somebody that, generally speaking, the the the the victim loved or loves and and yet at the same time can't live with this person, so it becomes an excruciating process.
Jon McKenney:And you catch the victim at their lowest. They're starting this process at at their emotional lowest, And then to have to fight for their children on top of it and figure out finances and child custody and child support and all of that together is nightmarish.
Padideh Jafari:It is. And we do have a lot of empathy for our clients that are going through this really difficult process of divorce but divorcing a narcissist. That's why if you go on our website there's so much information like free information about it. Know I know you and I started our Instagrams to help the community understand what this is. We offer a lot of legal, you know free legal advice on our social media even though, you know, the California State Bar doesn't like that.
Padideh Jafari:Even though we're not representing you, we'd like you to, you know, give you suggestions of what you can do. And obviously this podcast that we started, you know, last year was free for the community to listen to. And even if you get one nugget and learn one thing, that you can use in your custody battle, because it is a battle, John, it's not like no one is breezing through this with a narcissist. Even if the narcissist doesn't want to parent their child they will fight you tooth and nail. So it's not, you know, and I have a lot of clients that say that like if they wanted a parent, if my, soon to be ex spouse wanted a parent, I'd have no problem with it.
Padideh Jafari:But here I'm getting out of a toxic abusive relationship and now my child has to go with that parent. And so it becomes very, very difficult. And again, if they don't listen to the advice of counsel, it's going to be much more difficult for them. If they listen to the advice of counsel, at least we can try to plug the holes, right, and explain to our client this is why they're doing this. Like they're making another false and phony motion and this is the reason why.
Padideh Jafari:And so it does take I would say that in Southern California where we practice law, it takes usually a normal divorce, a regular divorce should take a year. In a narcissistic divorce, it can take anywhere, I would say, from three to seven years. So to your point, you're paying attorney's fees, you're splitting your assets, your debts. Sometimes you don't know what debts your spouse has. Have a lot of times where
Jon McKenney:Yeah, was surprised. And I came out easy. There's an extra $20,000 on a credit card I didn't know about. And there are people who are far deeper in than me. I consider myself lucky.
Jon McKenney:It was only $20.
Padideh Jafari:I have a client recently, she came in and she said, I've never signed a tax return. I've never signed one. We are $80,000 we owe the IRS but I've never signed a tax return when we were jointly married, you know, we were married and I said, Well, what do you mean? Didn't you file jointly? She said, Yes.
Padideh Jafari:And I said, Well, didn't you look at it when you signed it? She goes, I'm telling you, I never signed it. He forged my signature on this document. And so now that we're getting divorced, I'm $80,000 in debt to the IRS. Forget the other debts that she had no idea about, but you don't want to mess with the government's money, So I'm telling you, it is really, really tragic.
Padideh Jafari:And going through this with the client, obviously being an empathetic attorney that I am, it's really difficult, John. I mean, there's only so much bandwidth that I have. So I have to be careful, the types of clients that I select for the law firm and then obviously advocating for them. And a lot of times you'll tell me like, you look tired or have you lost weight? This is why because it's very stressful when you are sort of championing for the underdog and half the time they don't even know what's going on themselves.
Padideh Jafari:So you're educating them and you're fighting a battle with the narcissistic attorney because to your point, the narcissist will find a narcissistic attorney. And so it's constant. And then sometimes your own client will turn against you and say, You know, you should be doing more. You should be, you know, making some of these motions. And you're going, No.
Padideh Jafari:That's just going to prolong the process. If we lose on emotion, you might have to pay their attorney's fees, the other side's attorney's fees. So, you know, it's really a battle and it never ends. I will say that the good part about this is that only
Jon McKenney:There's a good part.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. Only ninety five percent of cases in California, they settle before going to trial. So at some point, you want to the fifth strategy is file for a trial date. And that way, you'll continue to work towards that trial date and try to settle. And as you know once you make any proposal to the narcissist they won't take it so we always say give us your settlement, let us look at it.
Padideh Jafari:Most times our client is like we'll settle for anything to get rid of this person, right? And then they'll come back and say, oh no, we want actually more or whatever because they always change the settlement.
Jon McKenney:Right. So And they're all about money. That, you know, there's that.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. Money, control, all the things, all the things, you know? And so that way you'll have a trial date even if that trial date gets continued, let's say, by sometimes the court will continue it or if you're not ready for a trial, you can ask for a continuance. At least you have that end date. Right.
Padideh Jafari:And so once you have that, then you work towards the settlement. But I will say all this is all good and dandy, but then you have the post separation abuse, which we talk a lot about. I'm glad we'll
Jon McKenney:have to save that for another time. Yeah. It's probably a podcast in and of itself and talking about child support and who pays and who doesn't and perhaps the inequity in that. Yes. So there's an awful lot to discuss with respect to that.
Padideh Jafari:Well also, know, the abuse that happens post divorce, that's a whole another subject because now you're sort of out of the court system but you could still be battling and you will, I mean not could, I'm sorry, you will be battling with the narcissist post divorce and sometimes they'll bring you back to court like I've had clients call me years later like I'm back in court I need you to represent me. I'm like why? We settled everything. Well you know the narcissists you told me about them you know we were back in court And, so if they don't win at the time of settlement or trial, then later on they'll ask maybe for more child custody or more money or an omitted asset. You're like, that wasn't an asset while you were married.
Padideh Jafari:That person got that asset after separation and now you're asking for it. It is a battle. I'm not saying that you can't win the battle. I'm just saying you have to realize that winning means getting your freedom and your peace. Winning does not mean dollar for dollar you're gonna get exactly what they get.
Padideh Jafari:That's not what winning against a narcissist is.
Jon McKenney:Well, the sadder part of it, and you kind of alluded to this, is you can fight for your kid. You can win shared custody of your child, and the kid may still hate you on the other end because the narcissist has been talking in their ear all the time because they'll they'll smear campaign the kid talk so badly about the good parent and reframe what good parenting is so that this kid that you've spent so much time trying to win time for just hates you. And it really is a problematic process post divorce. It's difficult.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah, that's where you get into real parental alienation. I know that that word is very triggering for some people. But where you get your child doesn't even want to spend time with you, to your point and that's a discussion for another time obviously. But, yes, I do believe though my experience is that the child at some point, usually when the child's late in their teens or 20s or even sometimes when the child gets married themselves and has a kid, they realize wow, like I was on the wrong side here. Know, I was siding with the narcissist.
Jon McKenney:Yeah.
Padideh Jafari:But it's when, it only happens when the narcissistic parent turns on the child and it's a repeated thing where the child is seeing it for themselves because you're out of the picture, right? You're divorced from that person. Yep. But that is a discussion, a whole discussion, for another time. But, you know, thank you for letting me share today because I Sure.
Padideh Jafari:I do feel like I know we kind of came up with this topic yesterday because I was in court for seven hours and I was like, you know, we really need to talk about how to win, child custody from a narcissist, but it's not the way that, you know, we think of winning. It's just to win your freedom and sort of guide your child through the process as best as you can while you're still co parenting with the devil.
Jon McKenney:Yep. Now keep in mind if you're out there and you're listening to Badita and you go, yeah, I want to talk to her. Remember that attorneys only can work in their state for the most part. Padilla is pretty well confined to California, so she's not able to go help you in Texas or Maryland or Georgia or wherever you might be necessarily. But you do want to go find somebody who understands the mindset of a narcissist and can help you through that.
Jon McKenney:And, and if you are if you happen to be in California, in fact, Padilla's website would still be a great resource for you. It's jafarilegal.com. If you want to look her up there and you can, there's information on there. You can check her out on TikTok and also on Instagram as well. Jafarilegal in both of those platforms too.
Jon McKenney:And we're going to continue to have conversations here at the Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel about these kinds of things to help you win and improve your life and hopefully win your kids through some of this stuff as well. It made sense today, Padita, to go have a conversation with you because this is your expertise. So I'm really glad we did that today and it was good conversation. So thank you very much for your insight and your wisdom.
Padideh Jafari:Thank you.
Jon McKenney:The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel, I'm John McKenney. If you're looking for us online, you can find us at narc.podcast and Padida again is at Jafarilegal on Instagram and TikTok. You can find me on at MaleVictimsofFemaleNarcissists or MaleVictimsofFemaleNarcissist.com. And, our podcast also has a website. It's, NarcissistAbuseRecoveryChannel.com.
Jon McKenney:We'd love to have you come visit and check out some of our other episodes. We're on Spotify and also on Apple Music right now. You're soon to come. And, we're looking forward to seeing you and helping you. If you need coaching, you can reach out to me.
Jon McKenney:I also do coaching particularly for men, but also coach some women through the process too. Again, John McKenney and Padida Jaffari. Have a wonderful day.
Voiceover:Thank you for listening to the Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel. Be sure to follow and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. To hear other episodes or read the associated blogs, be sure to follow us on Instagram with the handle NARC. Podcast. The guest views, thoughts and opinions expressed are their own.
Voiceover:The information presented is for general information purposes only and is not intended to be legal advice. The co hosts are not licensed therapists. Seek professional help as information is often state specific.