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Nir Hindie: [00:00:00] I think that most people need to understand is there is no such thing innovative and creative companies. In my opinion, it's a myth. They don't exist. There are only innovative and creative people who build those companies
Podcast Host: Is changing. For most humans, change is uncomfortable and challenging to address. Financial and political uncertainty, friction with back to office mandates, and challenging hybrid workplace collaboration. Not to forget, important environmental, social responsibility, and governance initiatives combined with the rapid pace of digital transformation and the need for human-centered AI integration.
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The team from Strategy Table want to help the wider world understand the need and approach to meaningful and impactful change management, helping organizations navigate disruption and make change accessible. It often starts with a meaningful conversation. This is Accessible Disruption
Anthony Vade: Welcome to another episode of Accessible Disruption, where we ask some challenging questions like, what is creativity anyway? When does art become design? And how might we unlock the true potential as leaders by understanding what art really is? This is gonna be a fascinating episode. I don't wanna give too much away, but of course, I wanna recommend to all of the listeners out [00:02:00] there, if you wanna dive into this conversation even more, head on over to our website, strategytable.co.
Uh, join up to get your seat at the table, where you can access unedited, extended versions of this podcast, ad-free listening, of course, and, uh, also join in the conversation in our white papers, our blog posts, and other elements as we continue to explore these interesting topics that make disruption accessible to more people.
So Tahira, you keep bringing people that blow Ryan and my minds, uh, that... Really fascinating topics and subject matter experts. So who are you going to broaden our perspective with today?
Tahira Endean: Today we have Nir Hindi, who I was fortunate enough to be introduced to. And if you read the official bio and look at what he's doing, it says that he helps build cultures where artistry and creativity are the operating system, driving innovation, originality, and growth.
And boy, oh boy, is this something that we all believe in all, every day, 'cause [00:03:00] it's, you know... And so I was so excited both to talk to him originally, to invite him as one of our speakers for IMEX America, and to invite him to this podcast to talk to you and Ryan because- Gosh, it's just right up our alley.
So I would like to just have you boys just dive right in. Welcome, Nir. Thank you for being with us.
Nir Hindie: First of all, thank you, Tahira, and Anthony, and Ryan, uh, and Corwin for, uh, giving me the opportunity. I'm super excited, so.
Anthony Vade: I'll start us
Nir Hindie: with a really easy one.
Anthony Vade: Um, Nir, tell us about yourself. Uh, where do you come from, and what are you all about?
Nir Hindie: Sure. I'm coming from entrepreneurial background, and for many years been interested in art. Anthony, I saw you studied screenwriting, I think. Um, so for me, art is a way of thinking, and I truly believe that there is artistry that can be found in business. And in my work, I always try to kind of find ways how artists can [00:04:00] drive technological innovation, which they often do because artists always operate at the edge of what we know to what we don't know.
But the other aspect of it is that what certain business leaders that we look up to, up to, at least I'm looking up to, are kind of doing differently. And very often what I've found is that they have these artistic sensibilities and ability and standards that they bring into business. So that's for the context of our, uh, conversation.
I've been... Yeah, I give keynotes about those things. I just came back from Ecuador, speaking at PCMA LATAM. Um, I work with organization trying to bring this way of thinking, um, just to offer another kind of, I would say, avenue for leadership, which is not the MBA, and I'm an MBA graduate, okay? Just to be, uh, kind of clear on that.
Anthony Vade: Yes, indeed, Tahira. This is a perfect guest for this podcast. Thank you for doing it again. Art is such a massive part of my life, Nir, as well, uh, [00:05:00] so I'm hearing exactly what you're saying, and I too see an abundance of opportunity to bring that art mindset and, I dare say, art life into the business world.
But, uh, it's not all about me and my level of excitement right now. Brian, what would your first question be for Neil to get us started on, on this topic?
Ryan Hill: Well, just one. Okay. As you can imagine, you're coming from a predominantly military background, uh, and getting a degree in creativity, uh, led to some natural friction points going from theory to application.
So one of the things that I've appreciated about some of your writing was this discussion about the process or the structure that comes along with creative freedom. Despite being in the military myself, I also value my freedom, and I don't like being told what to do. It has caused problems at times, but it's also been, uh, a way to set myself apart and break the mold some other times.
And when I got into a leadership position where I actually had influence, I took a similar approach to [00:06:00] you that you wrote about where I tried to give that freedom to people, and then I found very quickly that maybe not everyone values total freedom and total autonomy to the same extent that I do. Uh, so for those that are listening today, can you talk us through finding the balance between providing autonomy and freedom, but also providing enough constraints or using circumscribed freedom as you- But it, to effectively lead people, uh, without feeling like you're micromanaging or controlling creativity too much.
Nir Hindie: First of all, thank you for the question. I mean, it's something that I experienced in myself when, uh, I had intern, uh, like, uh, Corvin, that I found that people want total freedom. Uh, but then I realized that my interns just got lost, and it was too overwhelming for them when there is no, uh, instructions.
And then I learned that I actually, one of the best way to do is kind of set the boundaries, where I, where I want you to play. So i- if I try to give [00:07:00] an example from, um, my own kind of work, when I worked with my other people when it comes to marketing, very easy, very, very quickly you can say, "Okay, marketing can be in everywhere, in every place, in every channel."
So I learned that I'm looking for creativity, especially from the young generation, and I used to tell them, "Forget Instagram, forget, uh, uh, Facebook, forget whatever. You are only allowed to work in this channel. What would you do?" And that's it. I just give the, the direction, and then it's becoming kind of process, I think, of conversation, of ideas.
Because oftentimes I can contribute my experience and say, "Okay, I try this. Here is my learning. What can you do differently?" So I think that if I try to put a name into it, you know, I was listening to, um, a conversation with one of the previous, uh, designers at, uh, Apple, and they have a different name for it.
Um, they call it top-down leadership, bottom-up contribution. Think about it that way, that [00:08:00] you can tell your teams, "Let's climb this mountain," but you don't tell them how. They are supposed to come with the how. Are we going to use, uh, cables? Are we going just to walk it up? Are we going whatever it is? But I do think that total freedom is also not, uh, uh, that good for creativity.
I think creativity actually strive un- under constraints. And oftentimes in my work, you know, when I speak about artistry in business and what can we learn from artists, people tend to think that artists come and just have everything they war- uh, want in order to do what they wanna do. But oftentimes, artists are the one that work with the most constraint that there are, whether it is time, production, uh, uh, resources, people, et cetera.
And still they need to push the boundary to create something new with what we have. So I don't know if it answered your question, but I kind of, um, uh, that's how I think about it. I do-- I don't believe in total freedom. I do believe we have to have the, a, a direction, but it's a, [00:09:00] it's an art, if I use my language, to be careful not to micromanage.
Ryan Hill: Yeah. I think what you're alluding to is, is best captured in like a pretty famous quote where it says, "Necessity is the mother of invention." Uh, which I think really boils down to innovation and creativity is driven by lack or barrier or an obstacle along the way. Maybe not every time, but there's a lo- a lot of the times we, we do our best creativity when we have strengths that we cannot change or influence, and we work around those.
So my follow-on question to that then segues into the concept of creativity in the workplace and manag- I feel like the times that I've tried to do this, there's a fear that's already established in the organizational culture that going outside of the established lane or outside of the box, uh, is met with resistance in the best case, and in the worst case with retribution or retaliation or perception of- So [00:10:00] how do we create an environment people feel comfortable exploring creative ideas or, or new ideas, but then also coach them back into the constraints if they go too far without shutting them down completely?
Nir Hindie: Let me speak about from a-- the leader standpoint. I think that most people need to understand is there is no such thing innovative and creative companies. In my opinion, it's a myth. They don't exist. There are only innovative and creative people who build those companies. Just like you can see one creative, quote-unquote, company change the leadership one year after or six months after, and you will see all the creative DNA disappear.
And why do I say it? Because I want specifically leaders to understand that they have the power to kill the creative, uh, uh, aspect or to let it, uh, flourish, whether you perceive yourself as a creative or not, and that's, I think, a very important distinction. So I think that first and foremost, if we look at it at a leadership standpoint, they need to understand that they have the, the, [00:11:00] the role.
And yes, it will most likely challenge their own personality if they don't see how creativity can flourish. But let me try to take it one step down to the person and how to maybe encourage them to think about creative work. And in order to bring it, I wanna use a, a research study that, uh, conducted by Harvard University, Dr.
Ellen Langer, that I had a chance to, uh, interview as well. She did a very interesting research in an orchestra. Okay? Now, orchestra, when you play Bach and Mozart, et cetera, you cannot move from the notes, right? But then she did a very interesting kind of research. Um, she took an orchestra and ran it twice in two sessions.
In the first session, they just told the musician, "Play it like you're used to at the best way." Okay? And they let it play, ask the audience, which were not music aficionado, uh, to rank it, et cetera. [00:12:00] Then she asked them, "I want you to play it with a nuance that only you know." And then they let them play. Uh, lo and behold, the audience rank it much better.
They enjoy it much better. The musician enjoy it much better. And all of this description is to tell you one thing, is that oftentimes I want to invite people to think that even if the organization, quote-unquote, or the leader or the department doesn't kind of allow you to, uh, cultivate your own creativity, you can still do it in ways that you will know it's nuanced, but not necessarily go outside the borders.
I always try to think about invite people to take accountability. That's what I think everything that I do. It's like don't delegate creativity. It can start with even the way you change how you s- uh, sign the email inside your organization. You can bring an intention, your intention, to everything you do, and I think that's where artistry also [00:13:00] sits.
Ryan Hill: Nir, you're speaking my language. You're saying everything that I believe in my soul about creativity exists everywhere, right? And so many companies believe that they have to outsource that, and we have all the creative capital right there. But the myth of creativity, uh, that people subscribe to is that it's specific to certain fields, specific mediums.
Anthony is a great example of someone that would be defined as a traditional creative. He's very good at the very artistic visual mediums. He's good at the musician stuff and audio mixing. He, he's good at all of those traditionally thought of creative fields. But then he is also aware that that now transcends into all aspects of life.
Parts of our work that people maybe don't think of on the surface as creative, but creativity is level. There's, there's little C, big C l- types of creativity where even in the mundane or ordinary, we can find ways to weave in the creative process, for lack of a better term. So I think that nailed it. And [00:14:00] then Anthony, I think you had some questions.
I, I have another question for you here, but I'll, I wanna share the mic 'cause I mean, uh, we- you and I could talk hours 'cause I have so many,
Anthony Vade: different
Ryan Hill: topics that I wanna share with you. But I'll share the mic for a second. Anthony, go ahead.
Anthony Vade: Thank you. I appreciate it. Uh, and perhaps, perhaps let's pretend that we're not all massive creativity geeks in this room, that we're not completely obsessed with how people collaborate and come around creative ideas.
And I'm gonna ask you what may seem like a mundane question, but when we think about art, I think you referenced this a little bit, but when we think about art and we think about creativity and artistry, it's rare that we throw the word business in there too. How do you talk about what art is, artistry, and how do you talk about creativity and its relationship to business without it becoming a dirty word or without it becoming a challenging conversation?
Nir Hindie: Ooh, story of my life, but I'm super excited about it. I'll tell you because those are kind [00:15:00] of the questions, Anthony, that have been, uh, circulating in my mind a lot because I see a lot of creative engineers and creative bankers and creative lawyers, et cetera. But when I thought about some of the leaders that I'm, I look up to, Walt Disney, uh, Ed Catmull at Pixar, Edwin Land at Polaroid, Steve Jobs, Irving Brown at Brown, there was something different about them, and it took me a lot of time to understand it because...
And let me tell you how I think about it. For me, creativity is about new ideas, solving problems, connecting the unconnected. But for example, you can use creativity with your mind to solve the problem, and you will stop. Artists never stop when the problem is resolved. Artists stop when it matter to someone.
And I think in this gap between creativity and artistry is where the emotional aspect comes to play. Because, for example, there are [00:16:00] certain companies that give me a incredible customer experience, a service for that matter, but I'm not attached emotionally to them. There are certain companies that bring this intention, this craftsmanship, this sensibility to what they do.
So that's why I always push people to think about not only creativity, because creativity can create a world, and we see it all over the world now in technology. Yes, we are solving a very complex, uh, problem, but do we actually create better? We definitely create new, but not necessarily better. That you feel in a way that nobody thought about us as humans.
They were driven by technological challenge, and I think that the great leaders that I took, uh, I speak about, and in a second I will bring the word artistry and business together, they understood something very important. It is never about [00:17:00] technology. It's technology serving people, not the other way around.
Um, and I think that what they realize is that technology changes all the time. So the most important thing is to get the human story right, because if you get the human story wrong, there is no amount of technological excellence that can save you. Now, it's a great question, Anthony, that you ask me about business and, and, uh, and art.
And you know, I truly believe, you know, I- all my life I've been in the business world, and I truly believe that business also can be a system for creative, uh, vision and creating human experiences and value. It's not only a system for optimization. And you can see certain people that very easily, uh, very easily, every time you will read interviews with Edwin Land at Polaroid, one of the most top innovators that the US saw, or Steve Jobs or Walt Disney or Ed Catmull, they always speak about themself as cultural people before they even mention the word technology or business.
Business was the way for them to bring it to the world. Now, I'm [00:18:00] not saying business is art, but I, I do say that you can bring level of artistry in the way you want to do things and create things in the world, just like, for that matter, an artist can do. Because I think it's sit in a very important thing, which is soul.
You can have very, a great a- great artist that create great work for that matter, but it will still lack what makes art art, which is the human soul Now I feel I became too philosophical.
Anthony Vade: We have nothing against philosophical conversation here at The Strategy Table, so you're in good company. Don't worry, Nir.
Uh, but that being said, we're gonna take this opportunity to take a short break to have you think about those philosophical thoughts. And of course, if you wanna listen to a version of this ad-free, and I'll give you a hint, this one definitely has extended content available on our website. Head on over to [00:19:00] strategytable.co, strategytable.co, to engage in that extended version, listen to ad-free listening, join the community, and engage with all of our content, all of our writing, and all of these interesting thought leaders that we are bringing to you as you gain your seat at The Strategy Table.
But for now, we'll be back after this quick break
And we're back from that break. Uh, Nir, as I said leading into the break, don't ever worry about being too philosophical. We warmly embrace it here. Uh, and in fact, let's maybe talk a bit, uh, more about the philosophy of the culture that you bring to the table. Uh, our business name is Strategy Table, and that's 'cause we believe that we need to bring collaborative teams to the table in order to discover the kinds of innovations and positive change that we're talking about.
But I'm curious, what do you see the role [00:20:00] of diversity in that collaborative process looking like, and how is that part of the artistry of leadership?
Nir Hindie: I mean, I think that diversity is important in every aspect. I also think it's important for us to kind of understand which type of diversity are we after.
Is it just, um, gender-wise or is it a cognitive-wise? And I think that what will contribute innovation will be a cognitive diversity that often comes from your experiences. That's why maybe over here it's worth saying, that's why I think leadership is much more art than science, because there's so many dedicated things that you need to, uh, do.
So there is a professor in Chicago University. His name is, uh, Dr. David Galenson, and he did a, a very interesting, uh, research about the cycle of creativity among artists. That's how he start, okay? And then he saw that there are what he called, uh, young geniuses and old masters, okay? And those are two profile...
For example, Picasso peaked in his 20s. [00:21:00] Cezanne peaked in his late 60s. So he kind of showed that there are different ways to go about it, and, um, the reason I say that, because even though it's-- we know that cognitive diversity is needed and is important, it's also important to understand how the other side thinks and operate in order for it to succeed.
Because when I, uh, did a, um, a, this kind of-- I also develop a test with, uh, Professor Galenson, uh, one of the things that, uh, we saw or he mentioned is that if you will put people that are in the two extreme of way of thinking and doing, most likely it will collapse. So I think that yes, and diversity and learn how the other person works.
For example, are you a person that need to plan much more before you execute, or you are a person like me doing a lot of trial and [00:22:00] error before I even plan anything? So I think that it's important even to have those, this in mind that, okay, if I wanna create this table, I can bring different people, but also let's make sure that i- we know how each other, how each and every one on the table work in order to understand how it might manifestate itself.
In
Anthony Vade: many respects, we're catering to the human side of the collaboration, how are we gonna engage with each other? What are our natural strengths and weaknesses? When do we need to pick each other up or push each other a bit further? And before we start to rush into the creative process or the methodology, because I think we love to grab onto a methodology and just assume because it's a methodology, tick the box, everyone's gonna behave themselves in the right way within that.
But does- Yeah ... does that happen always?
Nir Hindie: You're, you're 100%, uh, correct. I mean, you know, I always say that, uh, Walt Disney or, uh, Irvin Brown in, uh, the, the '50s, they didn't need a concept of human-centric design. It was just the right thing to do. That's how you build [00:23:00] business, around people, not around the bottom line, and you can feel when a company optimize to a bottom line and when a company, uh, uh, optimizes for a human value.
It's very, it's very easy, you know, to kind of understand. So I'm with you. You know, I think that, uh, it's not a matter of methodology or it's a matter of mindset. Then obviously methodologies, uh, can help. But if you don't have the right mindset, I don't think you can unlock the methodology.
Anthony Vade: I gave a presentation the other day, and we were exploring that exact framework.
Mindset leads to the methodology being successful, which should lead to some form of, you know, creative output or creative action in this case. And Ryan, did I set you up for another question? I feel like I did. No,
Ryan Hill: you, you, you did set me up. You mentioned that we can feel it or we can sense it when, when things are optimized towards the bottom line versus when they're optimized for the user experience or, uh, or the human side of the, of the product.
What comes to mind for me is Apple, right? I think Apple set [00:24:00] themselves apart in the early 2000s because they, they really were known for breaking the mold and making it about the experience, and it was like, it was a package deal. You know? It was the think different motto applied. Like, they, they came out and they, they, they sold the MP3 player, the iPod better.
Uh, they weren't even the best one that hit the market at the same time. There was another company whose name escapes me now, that's how forgettable they were, that was all about the data points behind that. Like, it holds this much, it holds this many songs. It, it, it was all very technical. But then iPod really, they just leaned into the, the user experience of it, right?
You know, the, the silhouettes, the dancing headphones. Great marketing really pointed out that it was about the person using it. I felt like that shifted because they, they really dominated the market and they locked it down. And then what have we seen since is, like, almost a failure to really evolve or change.
It's just a repackaging of the same product over and over and over again, and I feel like there was this tendency that once we lock down control of, of the, of our market segment, the pressure to [00:25:00] be thinking and optimizing for the user starts to shift towards that bottom line innovation. Another great example is Southwest.
Like, their recent ploy to switch to now assigned seating and start charging for bags and doing everything that every other airline does is clearly bottom line driven and abandons the hallmark flying experience that I think that they built their brand on initially. So for change leaders, this is all this to say, pulling into the real question, we target our podcast and our business towards those that are trying to facilitate change and to lead organizations through change You come into an organization that has been optimized for bottom line and is accustomed to doing something the same way over and over again.
How, as a leader, can you help shift that mindset back into the end user, especially if you are maybe in a slightly larger organization where you have to answer to a board that's really only focused on... How do you strike that balance as a, as a leader in the business space to [00:26:00] invigorate the creativity and the focus, but also still meet the demands of the board?
Nir Hindie: I-- Let me give you again kind of another, uh, interesting research in order to make sure that people will be able to implement it. I think that first and foremost is that in order to remember the customer, we need to make sure that the customer is present. And when I say present, think about the following idea.
You know, there was kind of a research that has been done, um, and they-- there was a kitchen, e-employees preparing food in a cafeteria for people daily, but there was a kind of a wall, so you cannot see the people. And they wanted to understand how to improve the customer for that better experience. So what did they do?
They just put an iPad, so when you enter as a client to the line, your faces are being projected to the employees at the, at the kitchen. And then they measured the quality of food and service, et cetera. And the results were obviously higher. And that kind of tell you something is that when the moment you [00:27:00] make it about someone, and again, that's why I think art is so powerful.
The moment you make it about someone I think you, you are not going to chicken out. You are going to put a little bit more, maybe not 10 times more, but a little bit more. And if we think about it, imagine you have a team of five people. If every one of those person will add 1% more, as a team you already have 5% more, and people will start feeling it.
So for every leader that listening over here, it's like if you work with certain clients, whether they are external or internal, give them a name and a face and a real, and maybe even invite them. And I think that by itself can already create-- And do it not once a year. That's-- I think it need to be constant in that sense.
So this is something very, I think, practical that you don't have to change a large organization like Apple, and I 100% agree with you. We can have a whole discussion what happened to [00:28:00] Apple, uh, in the last 12 or 13 years. Apple now is the cash cow of Wall Street, but is it the same innovation powerhouse we saw?
I guess everyone ha- know the answer.
Tahira Endean: It's not so much a question as a comment really that you can respond to. I love the processes that make things work and the creativity and the originality and the novelty and the things that we assume are creativity and that we require for things to be creative, but that artistry makes them matter.
And I think that what I said I wasn't gonna do was, you know, turn it back to experience design, but this really stuck with me because we do all of these things that we think will look nice Where people walk into an event sometimes, and then we try to find ways to make them matter. And when things do matter, that's where the memories kick in, and that's where then people start to see change.
So of course, when we're looking for transformational change, it does have to have some kind of a creative element. If you just [00:29:00] walk into a beige room with no windows and then are expected to be inspired, it's basically impossible. The dopamine's just, like, basically at your feet. How do we convince people that, that we need to be thinking about creativity and how it aligns?
What are some of the tools that we can be bringing forward so that organizations understand that working in a beige wall isn't going to inspire anybody, and that humans communicating with each other is actually one of the most important things that we do, and building for that matters.
Nir Hindie: Wow. First of all, let me start by saying, you know, I don't try to convince everyone.
And oftentimes when I start my keynotes, oftentimes I start my keynotes and I say, "Uh, guys, I'm not here to sell you this idea, and I'm not here to tell you this is how it should be." I just invite people to think what will happen if we will connect. It's-- I think that's a beautiful exercise to do. What if?
What if, if we will have amazing space that people are inspired and [00:30:00] actually want to come to work? And again, let me give you concrete example, and over here specifically, I will tap to what you say. Eh, in my work, one of the things that I'm interested is artist in residence program. Now, what people don't know is that Google Quantum has artist in residence program.
And, um, just to be clear, I'm very familiar with the program. My close friends is the, uh, resident. He's the co-founder of the program. If I will tell people now to think about the scientific lab, I want you to think about it, our dear listeners, for a second. Think about the scientific lab I would assume that people will have in their mind a closed wall, not a kind of inspiring space, you know, um, fluorescent lights, et cetera.
We will share the link to the, uh, offices so people can see. Everything is obviously, uh, available on the web. I'm not saying something that is, uh, discrete to Google. They have one [00:31:00] of the highest tendency to the office because people come to a place that inspires them. I mean, when you are at home and you have your kids and you have your, a, a small room if you live in a small apartment and there is no natural light, you are less effective.
That's why I always say I'm not here to convince anyone. I just want you to think about the last time you were in a space that you felt energized. When was the last time you enter to a, an office and say, "Wow, I wish it was my office"? Now can you create this experience? And I think this is where it, uh, uh, sit, Tahira.
I think that first we need to understand we don't need to convince everyone. We just need to convince enough. And the second part of it, I want people to understand that there is an economic value for it. Forget for a second if I speak a business language. Obviously, just to be clear, there is a human value, and I truly believe people need to have the best conditions, but there is an economic value for it.
Tahira Endean: I did write a book called Our KPI Is Joy. Which is exactly [00:32:00] that, which is that if we don't... If we go to places that bring us some sense of joy, which is not a happiness emoji, it is that feeling of productivity, that feeling of trust being built, all of those things, that there is a measurable KPI that goes along with that.
So I, yeah, I think it's really important. I have one more question before I, I know that Ryan is, you know, just chomping at the bit, and I get to ask this question because I was actually just looking at your session for IMEX in October. And, uh, so the Renaissance of Renaissance Thinking, I love this because I feel like we definitely need some bigger picture, more critical thinking in the world.
What does it mean to you, the Renaissance of Renaissance Thinking?
Anthony Vade: Oh no. Look at what we've gone and done to you. You've guessed it. If you're listening to this on any of the podcasting channels, you're missing out on this amazing response. Head on over to strategytable.co [00:33:00] and listen to Nir's response. When you sign up to get your seat at our strategy table, you'll get access to extended versions like what you can listen to from Nir, and additional content that will help you explore how you can elevate your artistry as a leader and bring collaboration to your strategy table.
So head on over now and hear an amazing response
Nir Hindie: So for me, the renaissance thinking kind of, uh, it's a way of thinking that invite disciplines to sit at the same table. It's, it's a way of thinking that put human at the center, and more importantly, it's a way of thinking that understand that whether you are an artist or a scientist, each one of us can be both at the same time and can contribute to each field.
It's not to take, God forbidden, from years of experience, et cetera, and knowledge. But it's to say that the fact that you are an artist doesn't mean that you cannot contribute to technological and innovation breakthrough. And the fact that you are a scientist or a [00:34:00] mathematician doesn't mean that you cannot have artistic sensibility And I think that what's beautiful in the Renaissance, and something that surprised me, that in the Renaissance you were considered a much more capable business and political leader if you were engaged with the arts and the humanities.
Think how contradictory with our times today. You were actually a better business and political leader if you were engaged with those disciplines. And I think that they approached it from kind of an equal standpoint, which that's why we keep using Filippo Brunelleschi, who built the dome of the Santa Maria del Fiore, or obviously Leonardo da Vinci or Michelangelo.
Think about it, 600 years, we are still speaking about these people. And-
Anthony Vade: Do you think the business world has lost its way a little bit in that respect? You know, we, uh, and I think 'cause maybe this links into the academic world too, because there's been such a strong focus on STEM, and not that... But we need that focus too, and, and I've got an arts degree, and, you know, I've had more than a handful of people [00:35:00] laugh at me for getting an arts degree, but it was some of the best study I did, and I'm still working within the field that I studied and so, um, as, as much as it's easy to poo-poo some of these humanities-based courses, it's been incredibly valuable to me.
How do you see us bringing this focus back into arts-based topics, humanities, maybe sociology side of things? And how important do you think that is? How do we allow businesses to see the monetary benefit of that perhaps more effectively and less philosophical?
Nir Hindie: Listen, I think at the end, everything will go through, unfortunately, through, uh, the economic, uh, bottom line.
I mean, when businesses will start to lose customers because they don't project any meaning for them, and every customer can switch from one company to the other in a blink of an eye, organization will need to understand that they need to shift the way they do things. And you know, I think that the AI revolution we are living obviously maximize output to [00:36:00] a level that we haven't seen before, but does this type of output actually matter to us?
Just take a look at what's happening on LinkedIn. It's a great example that I always use because before AI, you had one billion people on LinkedIn, and you had one billion voices. Now you have one billion people on LinkedIn, but you have one voice, the AI voice. And I think naturally, and we have Corvin over here, the young generation, I hope that they would look to what inspires them and what motivate them.
And I think maybe over here you will see the change because- One of the reason, Anthony, that you said is that the education system has part of it because our still education system was designed in the 18th century for the industrial age. We still, in a way, teach the same. One of the reason I continue to teach this topic, business artistry, is to give the young generation another option.
Whether it is one simple elective that will show them there is another way to think about business which is not just [00:37:00] maximizing the, a, a bottom line, that actually create value, inspiring products that improve people's life and, and, yeah. So I guess that You don't need a lot, you just need some people that will do it.
Corvin Dams: Um, Corvin, did, did you have any questions? It's a very interesting topic. From an education standpoint of view, 'cause I am in university, uh, my program was always set up in a way where we never had to pick our classes. They always would give us a timetable, a set timetable, which I almost preferred 'cause it is like what you mentioned at the beginning.
It's that structure that you need to, like, still be creative, but you- but some structure does help you on your path and so I do very much agree with that.
Anthony Vade: Thanks for sharing that, and I think that also speaks to how things can change and how they're unique to the individual experiencing them. Um, my university experience is, you know, almost 20-something years ago.
I've run into [00:38:00] Hira experience there is predominantly online and, and you're experiencing it on campus and a hybrid, so the different benefits to the structures put in place will be different for, for you in different ways to other students even experiencing the same course. It's fascinating. Something we could jump into, but Nir, I'm also interested, there's a lot of openness to the university experience.
It's about discovery, both academically, socially, and perhaps philosophically. And often there's a bit of a divide that happens when you transition out of the academic setting and move into business, and sometimes it can feel like business processes is more about optimizing your behaviors within the workplace and optimizing, once again, that bottom line than it is about having that openness to explore and discover potential solutions for the business.
And bring that, I guess, uh, what we get from Corvin, a bit of youthful vigor and a bit of perspective that opens us up to [00:39:00] more opportunities. How might we navigate that almost, uh, enclosure that comes from the business mindset that says optimization at, at all costs, and how might we reinvigorate creativity, especially as we work with our younger members of the team that are bringing that youthful exuberance and excitement and abundance to the business setting?
Nir Hindie: I take time to think about it because, um, in business, you know, just like we have this type of discussion, in business we always try to have all the answers, uh, uh, answered, and that's why I said maybe earlier in our conversation that leadership is much more art than science. And we need as individuals that leading others or leading ourself or leading organization to remind ourself why we do what we do, and does the process serve what we are after?
And I think it's an honest conversation that if I take what Hira mentioned about KPI of joy, maybe that should be part [00:40:00] of the yearly KPI. Are we still serving the vision of what we set to do? Instead of are we increasing our, uh, bottom line by 10%. And I think that's a great leadership, uh, question to ask.
To, not to fall in love with the process and to know when the process can serve you and when the process doesn't serve you. And I think it's a hard, it's a hard question to answer because it's, in a way, it's very personal. Uh, and if you talk about the organization, that will be oftentimes the, the leader.
One thing that I would offer people to do maybe is just add to the KPI or the OKR or y- or the yearly goal, one simple question. Uh, what we do still serve the same vision that we started? And by the way, it doesn't mean that the vision cannot change, but make sure that you change the vision because you wanna go to the next level, not because the process told you change the [00:41:00] vision to fit the process.
Ryan Hill: I think it's just a conversation that I think people Can resonate with, especially people that have come from more creative industries and they've, at these smaller startups, and then they get that big break opportunity to come into someplace like Apple or Bethesda, uh, to do video game design. And they get in there and they realize that it's just another corporate machine, right?
And like, yes, they have different processes, but they've got too many blinders up, right? And I think you even wrote about it in, like, this, this article about the blindness of expertise, right? Like, they're so good at what they do that they actually start to miss some of the most obvious things because they think they have all the answers 'cause they're experts in this particular field, in this particular, uh, type of product.
And then they start to miss that market shift, that change in expectation by who it is that's actually buying the games, who it is that's actually buying the, the products, you know, where the, what's their primary value. Because we've become experts, we start to maybe miss those shifts, and we're not as on the edge of it, and we're more reactive to it instead of redefining it.
Anyway, so I think it was a great answer because there is no good answer outside of just maybe building in a, as [00:42:00] part of that process, the reflection, and being honest with yourself. I think reflective practice requires honesty that a lot of people are afraid of. Yeah. 'Cause sometimes you gotta be brutally honest, uh, and say, "No, I'm- we're not doing what we set out to do, and that's my fault or our fault."
Nir Hindie: Right. In that sense, maybe we can... This is where we- maybe AI can actually serve us. Choose the model that, uh, is the most, uh, critical and give everything and just say, just be objective, you know? If a human being can, cannot give you, uh, the brutally honest, maybe, you know, an AI that saw everything you did will tell you, "Yeah, my friend, you are wrong."
Ryan Hill: That, yeah, I, I would agree. I think a- AI taking on that role of a supportive tool or a- an enabling tool versus the outsourcing tool is probably the better fit.
Anthony Vade: Yeah. So we've uncovered a lot in this conversation, but feels like we only scratched the surface. Uh, we're probably gonna need to talk with you more about this, and certainly after you come out of, uh, your IMEX experience, we'll, we'll be looking to, to learn a bit more [00:43:00] about what you've explored there.
But as is standard practice on any episode of Accessible Disruption, we're gonna throw it to our hosts and guests to give us a nice little call to action. How might we take some of this conversation and turn it into impactful action within our teams, our organizations, and even in our personal life? So I'm gonna go with the person who kicked us off on this episode.
Tahira, what is your call to action for this episode?
Tahira Endean: My call to action is to get back to some Renaissance thinking. Let's read books that are made out of paper. Let's touch things. Let's experience things. Let's taste things fully, not just for the sake of nutrition. Let's have conversations with people that just make us think a little bit differently
Anthony Vade: Great call to action.
Ryan, what's yours?
Ryan Hill: I'm gonna stick on that reflective piece of it here, and I'm just gonna challenge our listeners to take an actual dedicated amount of time to reflect on [00:44:00] what is it that you're doing this for. Is it the same that you started with? Has it evolved? Has it evolved for better, or have you lost sight of the real vision?
And what do you need to do to make sure that you stay on course? And my call to action is just think about why it is you're doing what you're doing.
Anthony Vade: Love it. Nir, give us yours, then we'll go to Corvin.
Nir Hindie: For me, it's about being intentional in your work. And just like in this, uh, ex- o- orchestra experiment, next time you do something, bring a nuance to the work that you will notice, and you will feel that you do something a little bit more creative.
Love it.
Tahira Endean: Speaking my language right there. What do I do all the time?
Anthony Vade: Corvin, what's, what's your call to action on this episode?
Corvin Dams: Bring some structure into things. Always, you know, try to be as creative as possible, but always think about the structure behind it, and try to stick to it a little.
Anthony Vade: Love that.
There are four powerful call to actions right there. I'll give you mine. So often I, uh, I take the easy option and just say, "Go to the website." Uh, but, but I'm very passionate [00:45:00] about my art. Uh, I get asked constantly by clients, "How are you so creative so quickly?" And the answer is practice. All creativity and artistic practice, in my opinion, i- is exactly that.
You need to continually come back to it and exercise those muscles. You can't run a marathon without training to do it, and creativity's the same. So pick up a paintbrush, pick up a musical instrument, do some gardening. Whatever creativity means for you, get out there today, tomorrow, the next day, and make it a regular part of your practice because, uh, it will enrich not only how you work within teams and collaborate, it will bring value to your organization, but it will also bring a little bit of joy to your heart and your soul.
Nir, thank you so much for joining us on this episode of Accessible Disruption. We look forward to having more conversations with you in the future, as I'm sure we will. And to all the listeners out there, we'll be talking at you on the next Accessible Disruption.
Tahira Endean: But one moment just before we close this out.
So [00:46:00] Anthony and Ryan, we have a special guest joining us today on our episode for the first time ever. Should we just take just a moment and introduce our new addition to the team today?
Anthony Vade: Yes, we do have a new guest on Accessible Disruption. Uh, it'll be our part-time co-host. So welcoming Corvin Dahms to, uh, not only the Strategy Table, excited to have you over the summer, but, uh, your first official episode of Accessible Disruption.
Welcome.
Corvin Dams: I didn't realize. I guess it is technically my first appearance on one of the podcast episodes, but yeah. Thank you for having me here.
Anthony Vade: Fantastic to have you bring, uh... And not only are you bringing, uh, the voice of the next generation, which we're proud to have, given how old Tahira and I are. Oh, I'm in trouble now.
I just got kicked under the virtual table. Ow, that hurt my shin. Uh, but, but Corvin, give us a little bit of background. You're studying, uh, at the moment. Tell us a little bit about what brings you to the Strategy Table, and what kinds of conversations you're hoping to have with us.
Corvin Dams: Yeah. So I'm in [00:47:00] my final year of university now with a Bachelor of Business Administration, majoring in marketing, which is how I kinda got into this as your marketing intern for the summer, and it's been interesting being able to put a different view on things or put a different perspective on all the projects we are working on, and being able to support in every single way I can.
Anthony Vade: Well, I can confidently say, as I did during the episode, it has been a pleasure thus far having you on the team, and we're really looking forward to the work that we have coming up over the next few months while we, uh, have you on the team. Uh, you've already brought some amazing insights, and we're excited to action a lot of those ideas that you have.
Because to Nir's point, uh, having that new perspective, having that fresh thinking is really important for any organization, even one as young as ours is. So I know what we're gonna need to do. We're gonna need to do a proper episode like we did for Tahira, Ryan, and I [00:48:00] at the start of this podcast series, where we unpack you a little bit more.
I like the German modesty. It's endearing, but certainly there's a lot to you as well, and we look forward to the opportunity to understand a little bit more about your interest in marketing and the direction you see for yourself in the future. But that is now officially the end of this episode of Accessible Disruption.
Don't forget to head on over to strategytable.co to check out more resources and hear an extended version of this podcast. And we'll be back with more podcast episodes very soon, and we promise you'll get to hear more from Corvin and learn more about his view to marketing in the future. Thanks for joining us on this episode of Accessible Disruption.
Podcast Host: Accessible Disruption is written and spoken by Tahira Endean, Ryan Hill, and Anthony Vade. All content is developed in collaboration with the team at Strategy Table. [00:49:00] Podcast production by Experience Design Change Inc. Find more information at strategytable.co