Commons Church Podcast

What does the parable of the sheep and the goats teach us about judgment, grace, and the nature of God’s kingdom? In this compelling talk, we unpack one of Jesus’ most famous—and often misunderstood—stories, exploring themes of humility, service, and the presence of the divine in everyday acts of love.

Through this lens, we challenge traditional ideas of judgment and eternity, showing how Jesus shifts our focus from future speculation to present action. Join us as we discover how the life of the age to come begins in the here and now, inviting us to notice the divine all around us. Perfect for anyone seeking a fresh perspective on faith, theology, and living with compassion in today’s world.
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What is Commons Church Podcast?

Sermons from Commons Church. Intellectually honest. Spiritually passionate. Jesus at the centre. Since 2014.

Jeremy Duncan:

And so when the disciples ask, what will be the sign of the end of the age? What they're asking is, when will all of this, this milieu that we live in, when will all of this finally come to an end? What they really probably want to know is when will 'olam haba, or the age to come begin? Today is all about judgment. And, again, I say that a little playfully because I think by now we all know that God is not sitting in heaven and tossing lightning bolts at our feet to make us dance.

Jeremy Duncan:

In fact, my hope is that throughout this series we have all become more aware of the grace that God has pointed at us. And the way that sometimes I think our perception of judgment is filtered through our own bias more distinctively than it is the character of God we encounter in scripture. And last week, we saw this really poignant example of that in the parable of the talents, or as I might argue a better name, the parable of the hard man. Because this was the real twist in our interpretation of this parable. Sometimes I think we come to a story and we assume automatically that Jesus must be speaking of God.

Jeremy Duncan:

Even though Jesus uncharacteristically says nothing about the kingdom of God in that parable, suggests nothing that ties the antagonist of the story to the divine. We jump to our conclusions. We assume God must be like that. And as I was writing that sermon last week, I actually sat with this for a bit in my office. I wondered, why do I assume that Jesus is talking about God here, even when he says things that seem so out of place for the character of God?

Jeremy Duncan:

And I think there's a couple reasons for that. First, I think it's fair to point out that most of Jesus stories are about God, and that does create a bit of an expectation. That's fair. Although, I think that's also part of the power of that parable. Jesus is playing with our expectations.

Jeremy Duncan:

I think He's also dropping enough hints though that He expects us slowly as we listen to get it. Jesus tells us that that character is a hard man in contrast to what Jesus has already told us about the soft heart of a God who causes the sun to rise and the rain to fall on the righteous and the unrighteous alike. Jesus tells us that this man harvests what he has not sown. In contrast to what Jesus has already told us about a God who scatters seeds indiscriminately, even extravagantly along the path and on the rocky soil, on the shallow and the good soil alike. I mean Jesus has already told us explicitly that God cares nothing for return on investment, only about taking a chance on what might be possible.

Jeremy Duncan:

And I think that's the key to the parable. Because if we get it, the story makes a pivot. In the end, it's not about the judgment of God at all. It's about the judgment of those who imagine themselves in the place of God. And I think the real problem here is that a lot of us have this language that tells us God loves us.

Jeremy Duncan:

But we have an internal clock, tapes that play in our mind that for some reason keep us locked into the idea that God just doesn't really. Bobby brought this up in the question and response last Sunday night after the sermon. I think it was really insightful. But it captured something of why we struggle with a parable like this. A lot of us will say God loves us, but we feel like God actually disdains us.

Jeremy Duncan:

And I think that deep, hidden, unspoken posture makes it hard for us then to see the clues in the story because I think sometimes we secretly believe in a God who is as hard as the man in the story. And in that sense, yes, the parable is about the cost of doing what's right. Just like Zaccheus is called to, but at another, maybe a meta level, I wonder if it's about how powerful the words, well done can be. Because I think a lot of us will chase those words right out of the loving embrace of God and into the arms of hard men who care very little for us. And so if there is one thing that I think we all need to know from this parable, it's that you are already loved and that will change how you read everything about God.

Jeremy Duncan:

Today though, we have another hard parable. And in some ways, I think it's perhaps one of Jesus' most famous parables. First though, let's pray. Almighty and merciful God, who creates and sustains and judges the cosmos, would you help us to see your judgment today? Not through fear tainted by the vindictive use of power that we see in the world around us, but instead informed by the loving guidance of a parent who wants us to grow into everything we could ever become.

Jeremy Duncan:

Would we come to understand your words not as one size fits all, but as an invitation into dialogue, and conversation, and ultimately through transformation. Where our imagination of you has been corrupted by broken images of cruel and spiteful judgment, would you speak healing images of the God who would go to absurd lengths to draw us near? Images of a God who cares so deeply for us that you would be present to guide us even when we go off course. In that, right, we come to understand you as the God who longs to be known. The God who wants to see us become more complete than we were when you found us.

Jeremy Duncan:

Right? We sense your spirit speaking, guiding, even judging us with grace, so that we might experience the life that flows naturally from our connection with you. In the strong name of the risen Christ we pray. Amen. Okay.

Jeremy Duncan:

One last parable. And we have a lot of work ahead of us today, but we are going to pick up exactly where we left off last week in Matthew 25 at verse 31. And today we're going to cover cake, apocalypse, eternity, and the goats. Because we are about to hit one of Jesus' most famous stories. And even if you have not been around church for a particularly long time, it's still very possible that you have heard this story, at least in passing at some point.

Jeremy Duncan:

Because this is the parable of the sheep and the goats. Yes. Sheep go to heaven. Goats go to hell. And by the way, good song.

Jeremy Duncan:

If you're under 40, look it up. The band's name is Cake. You can thank me later. Check it out. But we're going to jump straight in at verse 31.

Jeremy Duncan:

And I'm going to make a couple comments as we go. But really, for the most part, I just want to read the story, get it into our collective imagination, and then we'll come back and we'll talk about some of the implications after. So verse 31. When the Son of Man comes in his glory and the angels are with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. And right from the bat I've got to point out something here.

Jeremy Duncan:

We are firmly in the same section that we've been in all along in chapter 25. The disciples ask, when will the end of the age come? How will we know? And Jesus responds with a series of parables, of which this parable is the climax of the whole section. And this is about as explicit as Jesus gets anywhere in the discourse about the end of the age.

Jeremy Duncan:

The Son of Man is coming in glory surrounded by angels, sitting on his glorious throne. This is language that's borrowed from Daniel 7, which talks about the end of the age. And so Jesus is now kind of finally really leaning into the question that the disciples asked at the start of chapter 24. In fact, this whole pericope, from the start of 24 to the end of our parable today, is what we call the Olivet Discourse. That's because it happens on the Mount of Olives, but what it does is it drives home what we've been saying now for 3 weeks.

Jeremy Duncan:

All of these stories have to be read together as a response to that question that started it all. When will your kingdom come? What will it look like when it does? And so Jesus says that at that time the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And again, sorry.

Jeremy Duncan:

I got to comment here quickly. I promise we will get through this parable today. But our modern translations are imposing something interesting onto the text here. More literally, what the text of Matthew says is that the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another. It actually doesn't say people anywhere in this passage.

Jeremy Duncan:

It is a third plural masculine pronoun them. And it could be referring to people being separated individually one from another, But that's also a highly individualized interpretation that's being imposed on the text, because it could also be that the nations are being separated one from another. He will separate them. In other words, perhaps God is interested in judging our individual efforts in the world, or perhaps just as acutely God cares about how we engage collectively together in the world. And I know that sounds like socialism.

Jeremy Duncan:

Do with that what you will. But I'm just telling you what's going on with the pronouns here in the text. Still, let's keep reading this. Verse 33. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Jeremy Duncan:

And the King will say to those on his right, come, you who are blessed by my father, take your inheritance. The kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me something to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you invited me in.

Jeremy Duncan:

I needed clothes and you clothed me. I was sick and you looked after me. I was in prison and you came to visit me. The righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?

Jeremy Duncan:

When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you? We don't know what you're talking about here. And the king will say, Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did it for me. And then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. And if we thought we were going to skip out on all that explicitly nightmarish image in this series, well, here it is.

Jeremy Duncan:

For I was hungry, and I was thirsty. I was a stranger. I needed clothes. I was sick. I was in prison, and you didn't do anything for me.

Jeremy Duncan:

And they will answer, Lord, when did any of that happen? We don't know what you're talking about. And He will reply, truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. And then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. And I'm just going to say, like, this is one of my favorite stories.

Jeremy Duncan:

I love this one, because it breaks almost all of our Christian rules. And I think sometimes those rules need to be broken just a little bit. I mean, notice here, there is absolutely nothing about believing anything in this story. And notice there is a strong indication that you can actually make it to heaven and have no idea how you got there. So how is that a paradigm shift for all of our theology?

Jeremy Duncan:

But since we're here, let's start with the ending. Because I do think it's that final line that tends to grip our imagination. The goats will go away to eternal punishment, and the righteous to eternal life. And cards on the table here. I actually don't think this story is primarily about heaven and hell.

Jeremy Duncan:

I actually think the severity of this line is meant to reinforce the importance or the significance of the story, which is actually all about the imagination of Jesus' kingdom. And we'll get to that. Still, we need to talk about this. Right? Because it's important.

Jeremy Duncan:

And right from the start we should notice that this is not your run of the mill parable from Jesus. I mean, sheep and goats, sure, they're pulled from normal everyday life, but this is not a slice of life story. We've got the Son of Man coming in power, his wingmen are literally angels. He's sitting on a throne judging the nations, and that's even before we get to these eternal destinations. This is a very different type of story from what we're used to in Jesus' parables about farmers and sheeps, even merchants going about their daily business.

Jeremy Duncan:

This story is, for lack of a better term, cosmic, or we could use this term, apocalyptic. And we have talked about apocalyptic literature as a genre before. I have written a lot about apocalyptic literature as a genre before. But as a brief reminder, here's how I define the genre. Apocalyptic lit is the use of cosmic imagery to narrate the longed for reversal of local conditions.

Jeremy Duncan:

And that's important, because the whole point of this genre is to use outlandish images to help you become aware of things that you ignore in the real world. So think about a good sci fi movie. It's not really about the robots, is it? It's about what the robots tell you about yourself. That's apocalypse.

Jeremy Duncan:

And I think that makes sense given that this parable is the climax of this whole section we've been studying for 3 weeks now. This heightened, evocative language is the culmination not just of this story, but the entire Olivet Discourse that begins way back at the start of chapter 24. And that helps, because the question in chapter 24 that spurs this monologue from Jesus was, when will this happen? What will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age? And it just so happens that that word age in the disciples' question is the key word here in Jesus' answer.

Jeremy Duncan:

See in English we read this word eternal, But in Greek that's the word aionios. And aionios is the same word, the adjectival form of the word that the disciples used to ask about the end of the age or the ion. See the problem is, we read eternity, and we immediately jump to all kinds of metaphysical assumptions about the eternal and never ending states of bliss and or torture. But that is clearly evidently not how the Greek language or particularly how the Greek people used this word. They thought about the end of an eternity.

Jeremy Duncan:

For example, you may have heard these words in English. Right? Eon, epoch, even era. All of those words are related back to this single Greek word, ion. And in Greek an ion was not conceptual eternity.

Jeremy Duncan:

It was a long period of time marked by some important or distinguishing factor that kept it going. So Homer uses aion to describe the life of his most important characters in the Iliad and the Odyssey. They represent for him an age, just like the disciples used the word. And we say this kind of thing in English too. Right?

Jeremy Duncan:

It was the age of King Arthur. That's an ion. In fact, our word, epoque, that comes from Greek as well. It meant stoppage, but it referred specifically to the stop, to the end of an ion. And so when we say we've entered a new epoch, what we're saying is that the old eternity has come to an end and new has begun.

Jeremy Duncan:

Now at the same time an ion is so important, so special by definition that in some ways it never fades away. The age of King David for example is still very much with us today. We read about him. We study his life. His age is eternal in that it never fades.

Jeremy Duncan:

Still though that doesn't quite mean what we assume it does when we hear the word eternal in English. Here's another way to think about this. Those of us who believe in eternal life, like I do, we also believe in death. Right? So life is not constant, unchanging, forever eternal.

Jeremy Duncan:

Life is eternal in the sense that it evolves, and it transforms. Life is so alive that even in death it becomes something new. That's also what we mean when we use the word eternal. And this has an incredibly important parallel in Hebrew thought as well. Two terms that the disciples are very specifically referencing in chapter 24.

Jeremy Duncan:

The olam haba and the olam haza. These are Hebrew terms, but olam haza meant the age that is. Everything we see around us right now, joy and laughter, sun and love, but also suffering, and sin, brokenness, and a longing for something more. All of that is olam haza. And so when the disciples ask, what will be the sign of the end of the age?

Jeremy Duncan:

What they're asking is, when will all of this, this milieu that we live in, when will all of this finally come to an end? And the corollary, of course. What they really probably want to know is when will olam haba or the age to come begin? Everything that the Jewish people have been longing for, everything the prophets have imagined, when will all of that start, Jesus? And so when Jesus answers using all of these different stories, he riffs on how he will be there to wake us up when the age to come begins.

Jeremy Duncan:

That's the parable of the wedding guests. And how we may have to face the judgment of the age surrounding us right now. That's the parable of the talents. And he talks about how the transition will be marked by the punishment of the age and the life of the age to come, the parable of the sheep and the goats. Point being, when Jesus uses this word, aionios, he's not referring to our modern conceptual reality of eternity.

Jeremy Duncan:

He's speaking to a very Jewish imagination of the ages. Ages that the disciples have very specifically asked him about. The eternity that is. The eternity to come. Now, understanding all of this helps us then to make a little bit more sense of what Jesus says next, because Jesus doesn't say the goats go to hell.

Jeremy Duncan:

Sorry, Kegg. Still a good song. Look it up. What he says is the goats go to eternal punishment. And if you remember, way back at the start of this series we talked about this word apolea.

Jeremy Duncan:

That word that means destruction or ruined. Place that our worst choices can lead us slowly over time. That's not the word that Jesus uses here. It's not eternal destruction. He uses the word colassin, and that is a very conspicuous term.

Jeremy Duncan:

Because kolassen is the infliction of punishment or suffering, even pain. But in its earliest form it actually meant, it referred to pruning or to gardening or cutting back a plant to help it grow. And we see this used figuratively in Greek as well. For example, we have an extra Biblical text called the Apocalypse of Sedrak. It comes from probably as early as the 2nd century.

Jeremy Duncan:

But it uses this same word colassin to say, your punishment, oh God, is discipline. So it's uncomfortable to be disciplined, and it maybe even hurts a little bit to be pruned. But the point isn't the pain. The image isn't retributive. It's actually restorative.

Jeremy Duncan:

Your punishment is discipline. Your pruning is even for our good. To say that another way or more clearly, the is not eternal torture. It is the punishment of the age, perhaps even the discipline that brings this age to a close. Remember the context.

Jeremy Duncan:

The question that started it all. When will this happen? What will be the sign of the end of the age? It will be a lot of pruning. Now, can we say that all of these goats go into that discipline willingly, and they participate in the pruning that will heal them, and they welcome that correction, and gladly enter into the age that is to come.

Jeremy Duncan:

Well, Jesus doesn't tell us any of that. He simply says the goats go on to the discipline of the age, and the sheep enter into the life of the age to come. All that you and I can trust is that all of this must be meant for our good somehow. However, that all brings us back to our parable now, because now we have a bit of context for what Jesus is saying here. But we still have our sheep and our goats and their separation therein.

Jeremy Duncan:

And this is where the parable actually gets really sticky. Because we start with sheep and goats, and they're all mixed together. And from a practical standpoint that seems pretty reasonable. Shepherds of the day would have had mixed flocks like this. In fact, Torah gives rules about the lamb that was eaten at Passover.

Jeremy Duncan:

And in Exodus 12 it says that it should be a spotless animal taken from the sheep or the goats, because they all live together. So it's not really a big deal. They're all mixed in. No worries here. And that seems to be a bit of a theme for Jesus.

Jeremy Duncan:

He tells another parable in Matthew 13 about wheat and weeds that grow together in a field. And the farmers are freaked out by this. They want to separate them out, but the master says, no. If you take it upon yourself to decide what's wheat and what's weeds, you'll end up ruining everything. You'll do more damage than good.

Jeremy Duncan:

Just tend to the field. Do your house to help all of it grow. I'll deal with that at harvest time. Jesus says something pretty similar here I think we should pay attention to. Wheat and weeds, sheep and goats, our role is not to spend any time at all identifying either.

Jeremy Duncan:

That's God's job. Ours is simply to live with as much grace and peace as we can in whatever mixed pasture we find ourselves in. In fact, part of this story I hear is that sheep and goats don't even know how to identify themselves, let alone anyone else. And so if you have ever had anyone attempt to name you a weed or label you a goat, first of all, I'm sorry. But second, that is beyond their pay grade, and that is an illegitimate story that you do not need to hold on to.

Jeremy Duncan:

And that person, whoever they were, a pastor, a partner, a boss, a random person you cut off in traffic, they simply do not have the necessary technology to make that call about you. And I would hate to see anyone here spend any of their precious energy living up to labels that have nothing to do with the way that God sees you right now. Let it go. Sheep and goats are not epithets for us to throw at each other. They are images through which we can reimagine our relationship to God.

Jeremy Duncan:

And I think that's the real point, the real brilliance of this whole story. See the disciples ask, when will this happen? What will be the sign of your coming? When will the end of the age and everything that we've been waiting for appear? And the way I read it, Jesus says, okay.

Jeremy Duncan:

I get it. I see what you're fixated on. Let's walk this through for just a moment. Let's say I show up just the way that you're imagining, in glory, with angels, on thrones, in judgment, fireworks, and deaf leopard playing me in. Just imagine Jesus descending with pour some sugar on me playing in the background.

Jeremy Duncan:

And I know, that's a lot of middle aged music jokes today. Sorry about that. But it's like Jesus is saying, I know what you want to see. I know what you want me to tell you. But the thing is if it happened that way none of it would matter anyway.

Jeremy Duncan:

Because if the me you identify with looks like that, then you have already missed the real me that is actually present with you all around you all the time. All around you in gutters and in need, in the faces of the unhoused, and in the stomachs of the hungry. See, the thing is, if you're worried about angels and thrones, then you already missed my arrival. And what drives it all home for me is the responses. Right?

Jeremy Duncan:

Both the sheep and the goats, they said the exact same thing. Lord, it wasn't us. We never saw you. We have no idea what you're talking about. This tells me the story isn't about believing the right things.

Jeremy Duncan:

In fact, you could almost say that your theology matters for nothing in the end. What matters, maybe all that matters, is your imagination of the kind of Jesus that is worth worshiping. Because if you think Jesus is worth worshiping for when he comes again bigger and better, more spectacular than the first time, then you already missed out on the point of the story. Friends, why are you worried about a second coming? Why are you worried about glory and grandeur?

Jeremy Duncan:

Why are you focused on what will happen one day when I'm here with you right now showing you exactly what the Divine is really like? Jesus shows us that God is like a meal with friends and stories that make you think and opportunities to serve your neighbors, encountering the omnipresent threat of violence with self giving love. The Divine does not look like a bigger, better Jesus that will come back to fulfill your power fantasies. The Divine looks like Jesus. And Jesus is saying, if we miss that now in the age that is, then sadly we will miss it then in the age to come as well.

Jeremy Duncan:

Because if we long for a second coming that looks nothing like the humility of the first, we've missed the entire point of incarnation. This story isn't actually about the end of the age. It's about Jesus returning our attention to the here and now, to the God that is present all around us just waiting to be noticed. And perhaps if we can even begin to glimpse that reality, what we might find is that the life of the age to come, eternity is taking root in us right now. The judgment here isn't whether you did enough in your life to be called a sheep.

Jeremy Duncan:

You didn't. The judgment is whether you trusted in a God who was big enough to be small enough to be overlooked. A God who will always, a God who has always looked like the grace and the peace of Jesus. This parable is telling us if we miss it now, we will miss it then. So let's look with open eyes.

Jeremy Duncan:

Let's pray. God, we invite your gracious judgment for all the times we have traded the grace and the peace and the humility of your way. What you have demonstrated to us about who you are in history through your son Jesus. And we have exchanged that for power fantasies about what you might be like in the future someday when you come back very different than the first time. God, help us to understand that if what we're hoping for looks nothing like what you've already shown us, then we have missed the beauty of what's right in front of us.

Jeremy Duncan:

And when we re center ourselves on the image of the divine that shows us a love that is so big, so strong that all it can do is give itself away That we can have our hearts reoriented, our paths made straight? We can find ourselves moving through the world with the kind of confidence to know that it is in grace and peace we walk our way back to you. God, help us when we need to to reimagine everything about you but to do that through the image of your son offered to us. Might we see the divine present in Jesus? Might that reshape everything we imagine about who you are.

Jeremy Duncan:

In the strong name of the risen Christ, we pray. Amen. Hey, Jeremy here. And thanks for listening to our podcast. If you're intrigued by the work that we're doing here at commons, you can head to our website commons.church for more information.

Jeremy Duncan:

You can find us on all of the socials at commonschurch. You can subscribe to our YouTube channel where we are posting content regularly for the community. You can also join our Discord server. Head to commons.church/discord for the invite, and there you will find the community having all kinds of conversations about how we can encourage each other to follow the way of Jesus. We would love to hear from you.

Jeremy Duncan:

Anyway, thanks for tuning in. Have a great week. We'll talk to you soon.