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"Winning in Ministry" is a podcast dedicated to empowering church leaders and ministry professionals with the tools and insights needed to thrive in their spiritual and organizational roles. Each episode features engaging discussions with experienced pastors, ministry experts, and thought leaders who share their wisdom on effective leadership, congregational growth, and navigating the challenges of modern ministry. Whether you're looking for inspiration, practical advice, or strategies to enhance your ministry's impact, "Winning in Ministry" offers valuable content to help you lead with confidence and purpose. Tune in to discover how to overcome obstacles, foster a vibrant church community, and achieve success in your ministry journey.
Where do pastors get it wrong when it comes to preaching?
Tom:Don't all sermons produce the same results?
Ray:What makes an effective sermon?
Tom:How can the way you prep make or break
Ray:your sermon? Join us as we dive into the topic on preaching and the preacher on this episode of the Winning in Ministry pod
Intro voice:You're listening to the Winning in Ministry podcast where members of the edify leaders ministry coaching team share insights and inspiration they have gained as they seek to strengthen ministers for exponential impact in life and ministry. And now, here are your hosts, Ray Sanders and Tom Matthew.
Ray:Welcome to this edition of the Winning in Ministry podcast. I'm your host, Ray Sanders, and joining me in studio is my cohost, mister Tom Matthew.
Tom:Hey. Well, Ray. Hey. Good to be doing this again. Good to be together And excited about the topic that we are talking about.
Ray:It's a good one.
Tom:Because a study done a few years back showed that the quality of the sermons was a major factor, a major reason why people picked the church that they attended. But here's the deal, just because you're a pastor or a minister doesn't automatically make you a great communicator. The title doesn't make you a great communicator, alright? The truth is preaching is an art form that's developed over time and there's no shortcuts, no easy way around it. It takes a lot of work, effort, study, prep, and much more to create impactful and effective messages that lead to life change.
Tom:So what does it look like? What does it entail? That's what this conversation is about that we're diving into today.
Ray:Hey, Tom. You've got it right. And just to discuss this today, we have two giants in the faith, two great preachers, two of our NFI leaders coaches, doctor j, otherwise known as doctor Anthony Jordan, and pastor Rick Fry is in the house. He's coming in studio today. These guys are true practitioners.
Ray:They've been at it for years, for more than forty years, in fact, and we're glad to have you guys on the show. Why don't you guys just take a minute and tell us a little bit about yourself? I'm gonna I'm gonna look to Rick first, doctor Fry, since you're out of the studio and coming to us via the Internet. Tell us a little bit about yourself, your ministry, and about why you love this topic so much.
Rick:Well, first of all, it's it's it's a joy to be here with you guys. And, you know, I have had the privilege of now being in ministry fifty four years, and I've had the privilege of pastoring in Oklahoma for over forty years. The last twenty years, I pastored First Baptist Church in Jenks, where we just saw God do incredible things, saw church grow from about somewhere close to 175, 180 to over 1,300 in these twenty years. I just retired at the end of last year. So finding a new new journey and a new pace for me, but, preaching has always been, my passion.
Rick:I love pastoring. I've loved shepherding. I've loved getting into the word and sharing that with our people. So this is a this is a topic that means a great deal to me.
Ray:Hey. I can tell you this much. You're not retired, buddy.
Anthony (Dr. J):No.
Ray:You're just you've you've just retread. You just retreaded. You and Diane are still very active. We love knowing that you're one of the edify leaders coaches up in the Eastern part of our state. So we're really happy to have you on the show today.
Ray:Can't wait to get your tips and ideas. Yeah. Alright. Doctor J.
Anthony (Dr. J):Well, I've had the privilege of being in ministry for fifty seven years, and I've been preaching all of that time. And like Rick, my passion has always been preaching the word. As a pastor, it was the priority of my life in ministry. When I I pastored at Northwest Baptist Church here in Oklahoma City for fourteen years, other churches prior to that, and then became the executive director of Oklahoma Baptist where I served for twenty two years and preached more as executive director, I think, even than as a pastor because I was in a different church every Sunday. I preached in hundreds of churches across Oklahoma and many events during the week.
Anthony (Dr. J):I used to always tell people, though, I do all I do during the week so that I can go preach on Sunday. And so it is the passion of my heart, and I'm glad to get to be here today and discuss it, and particularly with Rick who is just one of the great preachers and leaders of Oklahoma.
Ray:You know, I'm gonna insert a question here. I'm curious having both of you guys with such vast ministry experience. I'm gonna put you on the spot with something we didn't have in our show notes. Did you ever have a favorite place or a favorite memory of a sermon to where either you just thought, you know, God showed up or God moved or you just felt like, man, I just felt the power of God. Is it do you have a a particular time, a place where you just look back on your years of ministry and go, that was one I'll never forget?
Anthony (Dr. J):Go ahead, Rick.
Rick:Well, soon as you, asked that question, I kinda got chills. I was pastoring in Arkansas at Emmanuel Baptist Church, and this was in December. And that morning at about 05:00 in the morning, my phone rang, and my mother had passed away. And I was about probably thirty minutes away from where my mom and dad lived in Perryville, Arkansas, and so I jumped in the car and ran to the house to be with my dad. That morning, I had First Baptist Church, No Wata, coming to hear me in view of a call.
Rick:And I remember looking at my dad, and I said, dad, I don't know how I can preach today. And he looked at me, and he said, son, you can't, but God can. And so I got back in the car, drove back to the church, cried a lot of the way home. That morning, though, of all things, I was preaching on the power of the Holy Spirit. And I knew that that I couldn't say anything about mom passing away because if I did, I'd break down.
Rick:So I opted not to say a word to the church. I preached that sermon. The public committee from First Snow Water was there, and, God fell on that day. I mean, he just the glory of God filled that room. We had a packed house.
Rick:We ended up having, I think, five or six people join. We had about seven or eight people get saved, and and God just showed up in a mighty way. And then I told the church at the end about mom passing away. That one has always stuck in my mind because I I there's no way in the world I did that. It was all of God.
Rick:But God showed up on a day that was hard and tough for me emotionally because I'd lost my mom. But God proved himself once again that, when you trust him, when you abide in him, when you rest in him, boy, God will come through in ways that just it it will just set your heart on fire and bring such joy and peace knowing that he showed up. So that's that to me is probably the most memorable time in my life.
Ray:Great story. That's really good. That's really good.
Anthony (Dr. J):Well, it will surprise you, or perhaps it won't. Probably the greatest experience in preaching that I've had was at Falls Creek. Very first time that I preached at Falls Creek back in the eighties. Uh-huh. Had the privilege on Friday night.
Anthony (Dr. J):I preached on the return of Christ. And that night, there were 400 and some young people who walked the aisle. Wow. I don't know. A 100 and some of them were saved, got saved that night.
Anthony (Dr. J):It was an overwhelming experience. And anybody that's ever preached at Falls Creek knows that you are just a very small fish, that there's no way you have the ability to communicate to that number of kids. It was in the old tabernacle, which is hard to communicate in it anyway. But it is only by God's grace working in the power of his holy spirit. And you've heard Rick and I both say that that is the key really to preaching.
Anthony (Dr. J):That's good. Is That's really good. The holy spirit of God falling on you. And all I could do at the end was just weep. And it still makes me weep to think about it.
Anthony (Dr. J):I had that experience many times at Falls Creek, but that was probably the most unique time.
Rick:Hey, doctor Jay. I was there that night. I was actually in the sound booth.
Anthony (Dr. J):Were you really?
Rick:And I remember that sermon, and I do remember just the power of God falling that night as you preach that message and seeing those kids come to Christ. I I remember
Anthony (Dr. J):Closing time.
Ray:Those are those are great stories. You know, you talk about the power and the moving of the holy spirit. I'm gonna kinda break the ice here. I was in Malawi Africa once with doctor Jordan, and he was preaching under a tree. And there was a bird above him.
Ray:And I'll just leave I'll just I don't I don't know
Tom:I don't know. Get saved? Is that what happened? What what the
Ray:I don't think I don't think it was the moving of a dove. No. It was a bombing of a pigeon.
Anthony (Dr. J):I got to preach with a spotted blue blazer. Yep.
Ray:So that was my most memorable sermon that I heard doctor Jay preach.
Tom:So it wasn't the holy spirit coming like a dove. That that was not it. Okay.
Ray:Okay. No. Okay. Good. You've got it.
Ray:Okay. I'm sorry.
Anthony (Dr. J):I I had share of anointing.
Tom:Oh, this is gonna be great. So I I wanna ask this question. I mean, you have both mentioned how over fifty plus years pastoring, preaching. Let me let me ask you this. How did you find your voice as a preacher, and what did that journey look like?
Tom:And and and I wanna say this because what happens too often is, a a preacher can like another preacher and begin to emulate and copy their style and and try to be like them. But the question is and and you guys know this. Once you found your voice, there's freedom in that. But what did that journey look like for you both in, hey. This is this is pastor Rick's voice.
Tom:This is doctor Jay's voice.
Anthony (Dr. J):For me, it was I I tell young preachers all the time, the best way to learn to preach is to preach. And that means preaching in nursing homes. It means preaching in any setting that anybody lets you have the opportunity. The more you preach, the more comfortable you you become. And I think at the core of it is learning to be yourself.
Anthony (Dr. J):Speak out of the context of your life. My style of preaching is old. I'll just be honest with you. It's it's it's more of a I don't mean like Billy Graham, but Billy Graham in style. Does that make sense?
Anthony (Dr. J):But that was a style that was that was coming down when I was a young preacher. And my grandfather was a preacher. I learned that that's that bold communication approach. But I had to I had to come to the place where I couldn't be my grandfather, and I couldn't be Billy Graham for sure. I just needed to be me.
Anthony (Dr. J):And if you will stay tuned to the holy spirit, he will guide you in becoming who you are and learning how to communicate and be comfortable in it. That's really good.
Rick:Yeah. I I couldn't agree more. I I remember I was 15 years old when I started preaching, and church members sometimes can put a lot of pressure on you as a young preacher boy because they start saying, you know, boy, you ought to listen to this guy, you know, doctor Adrian Rogers, who was a big preacher back where I was at. And so you you begin to feel like if you're not careful that you've gotta preach like them if you're gonna be good. And, so I remember in my personal life, like doctor Jay said, one of the most freeing moments in my life was when I realized that I didn't have to be an Adrian Rogers.
Rick:I didn't have to be, you know, a Billy Graham or or Billy Sunday or whomever it may be. That that god wanted me just to be me and be comfortable in your skin. And as, as doctor Jay said, when you when you begin to preach and you begin to allow the Holy Spirit just to really, flow through you, you begin to realize, in preaching, we we get to share a message that God has impregnated into our heart and life. And when that becomes a part of us, then it comes out of it comes out of your life. It comes out of your experience.
Rick:It comes out of who you are, and it just frees you up. And one of the greatest days of my life was when I realized I didn't have to be what everybody else wanted me to be, but be what God knew me to be. And that was that was a freaking time to my life.
Tom:Well, I think it's a good reminder that God called you to be you. Like, if he called you, it's because he wants to use your personality, who you are, the way that you're wired to convey the message and the truth that he's giving to you for the people.
Rick:So Right.
Tom:So it's in your skin, in your voice, so embodying who you are is is important. So I I love that. Allow the Holy Spirit to use you the way that you are to deliver the message that he's given you.
Anthony (Dr. J):Well, the best preaching is the best you. Yeah. Mhmm. Inspired by the Holy Spirit. That's good.
Ray:That's great. I can't help but wanna hear Rick Fry preaching at fifteen. There's gotta be a cassette floating around somewhere that I would I would pay money to hear. I would love to hear that one for sure. But but with that, you know, the the old saying goes, practice makes perfect.
Ray:And they say you play like you practice. What role does prep and study practice, what role does that play in your preaching? Talk to us a little bit about that.
Rick:Oh, well, I think for me, I realized that my schedule, you could you know, as a pastor, there there there's a lot of demands. There's a lot of things that, that's on your plate. You're trying to shepherd. You're trying to take care of a church family. You're trying to take care of your own family.
Rick:And if you're not careful, you can find that the week can be gone, and and you've not put the time in. So for me personally, I made sure that on my calendar and and things could change, but I wanted to make sure that I've set aside time for me to be alone and study and prepare. That was very important, because I'm a people person. I love people. And, so you have to be careful that if you if you don't, next thing you know, the Sunday's there, and you haven't spent the time, you know, in preparation.
Rick:So for me, it was that setting aside the time, being in the word of God, making sure that, for me, my prep time, was so important that I wanna make sure I wasn't just studying the bible to get a sermon, but also had my quiet time and my time that I sat at the feet of the lord. Because if you don't, you're gonna start pulling out of a dry well. Because if all you're in the word of God is just simply to get a sermon, then all of a sudden, the well starts getting dry for you personally, that you needed to sit at his feet to get a word. Now God may give you a message out of that, but that was so important to me to make sure I I designated time. I spent the time in the word to prepare because if I didn't, other things could push that away.
Ray:One of the things that we did when we, thought about starting edify leaders is we surveyed pastors. And one of the things that we asked them is we asked them, how is your walk, your personal walk with Jesus? Not your sermon prep, not funerals, not weddings, not banquets, none of that. How is your personal walk with Jesus? And nearly every pastor that I personally spoke with got tears in their eyes.
Ray:And they said, my biggest struggle is that my call to ministry doesn't just become a job. And I that I remember that it's a calling, and I have to have that personal walk with Jesus. It's from that river that it all flows. Right? It comes from that personal time.
Ray:I appreciate the fact that you talked about your personal devotion time and not neglecting that. It's easy to neglect that as much as anything. Well, I'm just gonna do I'm gonna do my sermon prep. Well, yeah, that's great. But how have you connected personally with the Lord because he wants to walk with you?
Ray:So it's from it's from there that the the sermon flows.
Anthony (Dr. J):Sure. Couldn't agree more. I learned very early on in ministry, actually, when I was in seminary. And I'm married as Rick is to a very spiritual, godly woman who has great insight. And I remember I was making straight a's in seminary, and things were going very, very well.
Anthony (Dr. J):But one day she said to me, you know, I know you're studying the bible all the time, but there's something missing. And I knew what was missing. I was doing all the things I had to do to succeed except the most important, and that was to walk with God every day and let him speak to me. Be still and know that I'm God. Part of the problem with many of us preachers, we're always talking, and we need to be quiet and let God talk to us.
Anthony (Dr. J):So I couldn't agree more with what Rick has said. It's it's absolutely essential. But I also would tell you that what I have discovered both in my own life and what I've discovered in in coaching pastors is discipline comes hard for most of us. And it's it's a good reason because we are people persons. That's what Rick said a moment ago.
Anthony (Dr. J):And so we have a hard time disciplining ourselves when we have people around us all the time. I I remember, again, I would try to study at the office, and I'd hear somebody outside. Oh, I need to talk to them. And I'd go out and talk to them, mess up my my study time. And I finally got to where, for me, I studied at home my study at home.
Anthony (Dr. J):I think another thing I would encourage is that pastors could really benefit by bringing their church into the process with them. It's one of the things I've had difficulty with some of my guys to try to encourage them to do this, but to say to your people and particularly, a lot of you know, the majority of our guys are in smaller churches. They don't they don't have a big staff to lean on. And in smaller churches, people expect their pastor to be there for every event and learning to bring your people in the process. By that, I mean, saying to your people, you know, I'm gonna have a schedule.
Anthony (Dr. J):And a lot of times the smaller churches, pastors don't keep a a hard schedule, but I have a schedule. I'm gonna study from eight till eleven. And then at at eleven, I'll start returning calls. Well, you don't get to have that inviolable all the time. There are circumstances that certainly create problems.
Anthony (Dr. J):But if you have a discipline, you say to your church, now, folks, I wanna be you you tell that I want to be ready to bring the word of God on Sunday. And to do that, I need to study. I need to prepare. I need to spiritually prepare myself. So I'm gonna ask you to help me with that.
Anthony (Dr. J):So Monday through Thursday or whatever time frame you have from eight to eleven, I'm going to study. Your people will respond better than you think, and they will appreciate because they'll start hearing the difference when you preach on Sunday.
Rick:Mhmm. Right.
Anthony (Dr. J):So I think discipline is a hard thing, but it's a very important part of the preaching process. Discipline your time so that you can study and prepare.
Tom:I like that a lot. That's really good, and I like letting the church know. Because so what I've found is a lot of people don't know pastors do. They just think you Work one day a week. Yeah.
Tom:That's that's what they ask. You just work what do you do the rest of the week? They have no idea. So to be able to bring them in the process and say, hey. I wanna be the best that I can be on Sundays, and I wanna be available to you.
Tom:And the way that we can manage both of this is by me having this time to study. I think that sets clear expectations, and then I like that. Invites them in the process. Let me
Rick:one of the things I wanted to say, of course, doctor Jay and I both grew up at a time where, you know, in reality, we had to have three different sermons. You had to have Sunday morning Oh, yeah. Sunday night and Wednesday night.
Anthony (Dr. J):That's
Rick:three different sermons. You know, today, you know, I preach
Anthony (Dr. J):Thank god for Weirsby. Right?
Rick:Boy, amen. And so, you know, you really had people didn't realize how much time it took to put three different sermons together because you wanted it to be fresh. You wanted it to be something new. And so now it's a little easier because, yeah, most of us, you know, you preach maybe three times on Sunday morning like I did, but we didn't do Sunday nights anymore, so that kinda gave you a bit of break. But, yeah, in the earlier years, it was tough.
Rick:And then in there, you probably had a two maybe a funeral or two. You know? So people didn't realize all the time that it does take, in that preparation.
Ray:So, Rick, I thought there for a minute you were gonna say back in my day when I walked three miles to school with a foot of snow to and from. I thought that's where you're gonna say that. But you guys mentioned Weirsby. What's the point of that? I I'm sorry.
Ray:I don't follow.
Anthony (Dr. J):Well, on Wednesday night when you, you know, you don't have as much time as you need to to study, Weirsby is a good outline. I never just took Weirsby's book, but it but it was very helpful in Yes. In shaping things. And that was in my younger days, and you you were scratching to do what you needed to do. That's right.
Tom:Yeah. Let me let me ask you this just on prep. I'm curious. What were some of your favorite commentaries that you went to, your your go to? Here here's here's the commentary that I'm going to.
Tom:Here's a scholar that I like. Just curious.
Rick:Go ahead, Rick. Oh, man. I mean, the you know, I I'm trying to think of some guys that I really enjoyed, you know, going to. In my younger years, you know, I had, I had my sets of commentaries, you know, old testament, new testament, and those were, you know, ones that I would go to oftentimes. I don't know if there was one just in particular that just jumped out at me.
Rick:Probably, you know, at the very beginning, probably the first set I got was Matthew Henry, you know, as far as that goes. Then later years, things have changed a little bit from that perspective. Back then, as as doctor Jordan knows, we had big libraries, big libraries, because that's all you had was books. And you see behind me, my my books have scaled down. I gave most of them to some pastor friends after I retired because I wanted to just keep what I wanted.
Rick:But, you know, today, you can get online, and you can pretty much look up anything you want to. But I I think for me, probably the thing that I turned to and did the most of is I was looking at scripture. I would take and read it out of multiple translations. Okay. That probably helped me more than anything, you know, whether it was King James, NIV, NSV, you know, all the different translations.
Rick:Even the simple ones such as the message bible, I probably did more of that. And I I learned a long time ago, not that I didn't use commentaries, but the only book in my library that the author lives inside of me is God's word.
Anthony (Dr. J):Amen. And
Rick:I've discovered that if I would just and Anthony said a while ago, be still. Be quiet. Mhmm. And allow the holy spirit because he wants to teach you his word. He wants to show you his truth.
Rick:It's it's not a mystery. It's not a treasure hunt that you're on. And if you just be still and just listen and all of a sudden, would it would come to life to you. And I had to learn that the hard way, but that was probably what I did more of in my preaching than than reading a bunch of commentaries, to be honest.
Ray:Oh, that's good.
Anthony (Dr. J):I I think I would applaud what Rick has said. I think letting the word do its work in you before it works in somebody else's life is important. That's to me, part of preaching is saying, Lord, teach me what you wanna what you're saying from this text because I need it. And if I need it, then my people need it. Now I would I would do exactly the same thing.
Anthony (Dr. J):I would then because I'm it's just my nature. I I love the Greek language, and I particularly in the New Testament, I didn't like Hebrew, and I still don't like Hebrew. But I I do use commentaries that help me understand the Hebrew when I'm there. The Greek, I love to work in. And so I would go to my Greek New Testament, and I would use technical Greek things to help me understand the text.
Anthony (Dr. J):But I think critical, whether you do that or not, commentaries today, there are so many of them that help you to do that without having to to the original language yourself. I love John R. W. Stott. I loved him because he was a pastor, first of all.
Anthony (Dr. J):And when he dealt with the text and he deals with the critical matters, but he doesn't go into a lot of the 14 different views on this text. He but he comes at it from a pastor's heart as well as a critical part of the commentary. So I I really like that. I appreciated that. Today, MacArthur, I enjoy MacArthur.
Anthony (Dr. J):I'm not probably exactly where he is theologically, but I find a lot of strength. I think the Christ centered preaching is those are more preaching commentaries, but I think it's valuable. One of the things I I would say is that do your homework. That's what Rick was saying. Let God speak to you and do your own outline and draw the the major point from that text yourself.
Anthony (Dr. J):I never go to commentaries, and I particularly never go to preaching commentaries until I have already got my outline. And I and then I would listen. I would read preaching commentaries. I would listen to preachers. I still do.
Anthony (Dr. J):But the fact is, if I ever listened to Adrian Rogers, I'd have a hard time coming up with a better outline. Mhmm. But the fact is, I need the outline God has for me
Ray:Right.
Rick:That's good.
Anthony (Dr. J):For my people. Yep. Yep.
Tom:I like that. Well, speaking of your people
Anthony (Dr. J):Mhmm.
Tom:The people that you're talking to is important. Audience is important as a communicator of any kind, especially a preacher. I know, doctor Jay, you talked about preaching at Falls Creek. And, pastor Rick, you talked about the different settings that you're in. As you're speaking in front of different audiences, what what are you kind of considering?
Tom:Right? What are you how are you preparing and planning for the different audiences and settings? So another way to phrase that would be, what are you thinking about when you get invited to preach at this place? What are you considering? What are the things going through your mind, and how is that informing you as you shape and create your message?
Rick:I think for me, one of the things, if I was preaching at, say, another pastor's church, one of the first things I would ask is, what translation do you preach out of? Mhmm. Because I want you know, there's there's guys who preach out of the King James. There's guys who preach out of the NIV. There's guys who preach out of the MSV.
Rick:So I would always ask because I wanted to, I wanted to make sure that I was using something that their church was used to, and I wanted to honor that for him. That's good. You know? And then I would always, you know, kinda especially if there were multiple services like it was at my church, my 08:30 service pretty much was senior adults. So when I knew I was preaching to senior adults, I wouldn't use illustrations that they didn't understand As well as when I moved into the other two services, I wouldn't use illustrations that I grew up with that probably the illustration of saying, you know, people looked at it like a calf looking at a new gait because the younger generation had no idea what that meant.
Rick:The older generation did. So, you know, you just always try to think about the illustrations that you're using. I will I will say this, and this was very important to me. I think sometimes and this kinda goes back to preaching, but I think sometimes if you're not careful, you can allow the illustrations to drive your message and the pre rather than the word of God driving the message. And I think sometimes if you're not careful, you can get into a trap of trying to find illustration or trying to find, you know, a video or something, and then you go try to find the scripture to make it fit.
Rick:Mhmm. And and I think that's a big mistake. Yep. I think you always want the word of God to drive whatever you're saying. And if there's illustration, it would great.
Rick:But and I learned this from doctor Jay. You know, he is he's preached to a lot of youth at Falls Creek. And I remember him telling me one day, he said, you know, if you just preach the gospel, you know, whether it's to teenagers or senior adults, the gospel has a way of touching the heart of no matter what the age is.
Anthony (Dr. J):Right?
Rick:Mhmm. And that is true. I don't think you I think if you're preaching the gospel, you're preaching the word of God, and you're preaching, I do think there's a difference between a sermon and a message. I think a sermon is three points in a poem. You put it together, you can go.
Rick:But a message is where God takes that word, and it becomes a part of your life. It gets simulated into your life. It becomes a part of you, and then it picks up speed so it passes through you on its way to somebody else. And I think that's that's the excitement. So I think no matter what the age group, if you're preaching the word and it is truly a message, God's gonna use it to touch hearts and lives.
Rick:But I do you know, I've always tried to at least if if I was using illustration on different ages, I tried to find one that would fit rather than them looking at you like, what in the world does that mean? That's good.
Anthony (Dr. J):Yeah. I think absolutely right on, Rick. And it would seem to me if I'm preaching in my church and I wanna be able to deal with things in a right way, one of the things that I appreciate about Rick as a pastor, and I saw him do it time and time again, is, you know, a preacher of the word, particularly in the context of his own church, is that he preaches to people. That sounds well, big deal. Of course, he does.
Anthony (Dr. J):But if you'll have the stink of sheep on you because you walk among your people, you'll be able to communicate to them.
Rick:Yeah. It's really
Anthony (Dr. J):When you preach in other settings when I preached at Falls Creek at 69, I was 69 years old. K? We had a great week, by the way. Again, because the holy spirit showed up. But in preparation, I took I sat down with my daughter who is was working in youth ministry at that time, and I sat down with her.
Anthony (Dr. J):She was a girl's youth minister at Quail. And I said, do me a favor. Let me show you the sermons that I've been working on, and I want you to tell me. And she's the one that said to me, dad, kids are people. Just preach the word.
Anthony (Dr. J):Now illustrate that. And I use illustrations that were tied to them. I researched. I talked to people. It's just work.
Anthony (Dr. J):If you just work at it, you'll be an effective preacher. That's the truth.
Rick:Amen. I love that.
Ray:That's really good, guys. I'm gonna steal a question from Tom based upon where we are in our show notes. But, how do you keep yourself from being overly academic? I mean, it's easy to jump in and get into the Greek and the Hebrew and trying to impress everyone with your credentials and, hey, I went to seminary. How about you?
Ray:Those type of sell those type of things. I had in my show notes, Rick, it's funny. You said three points in a poem. I said three points in a prayer. I mean, everybody's got everybody's got their formula.
Ray:I never will forget a young pastor, a youth pastor that was in my church. He called me one time and he said, do you think I'm ready for my own church? And, boy, he was so ready. He was a great preacher, did such a great job, and he was a little bit insecure. And I said, let me just tell you this.
Ray:And he was working on getting his doctorate in ministry. So it's easy to focus on the academic side. I said, but here's what I believe is the key for you as a young pastor in a in a in a church is you guys have already said it. Number one, be yourself. Number two, you know, I don't care so much about the academics.
Ray:What I care about is that you preach the word. And then I say the last thing is love your people. You you've got to love your people. And so many times I see pastors that are they do one or the other. Either a great preacher and a not so good pastor.
Ray:You know? They don't they're not among they don't smell like the sheep. Or they're they smell a whole lot like sheep, but they can't preach their way out of a paper sack. And I just say, look, man. Just preach the word.
Ray:Focus on the word. You can't go wrong by preaching the word. The word of God will not return void. If you do nothing else, preach the word. And then by all means, love the people.
Ray:All that to say, how do you make sure you you don't get up in the pulpit and wear your graduation hat and become so academic nobody can relate?
Anthony (Dr. J):Well, I think one of the ways is you know, sometimes I will mention a Greek word, but only because it has an English. We get our English word from it. Sometimes I'll I'll do that to help people kinda get a background. But I think what you can do is and in the end is you just wanna make the word you wanna make it plain to people. There are some nuances in the different language, in Greek language, for example, the different tenses of the of the verbs, which have significance that doesn't always come out in the English.
Anthony (Dr. J):But the only reason you you don't have to tell them, well, that's a perfect tense verb. You just say, this literally means, for example, standing in grace. I I'm planted here, and I stand here forever. Well, that's a perfect tense. But the idea is not so much to give them a Greek lesson.
Anthony (Dr. J):People are bored with that. They don't want it. They don't need it. But helping them just understand the text. If you stay true to helping the people you're preaching to understand the text, then you won't worry about all that other stuff.
Rick:Yeah. I agree. I for me, it was I think if you're not careful as a pastor, we can be guilty of putting a mask on. And what I mean by that is, we've you know, we're all saved by grace. There's nobody perfect in our churches.
Rick:The pastor certainly is not. And when I was preparing or preaching, I wanted to make sure that I was just real, that people could see that. So if if I was dealing with a passage of scripture that maybe at some time in my life I struggle with, I would talk about that. I would say, you know, I I I remember a time in my life I struggle with this. I think it helps people to realize, man, he's real.
Rick:He puts his pants on just like I do. But when I was preaching, I wanted to make sure that when they left at noon, that they took a message home with them that they could apply at 03:00 in the afternoon Amen.
Anthony (Dr. J):If if
Rick:God confronted them with it. I think you can preach so far over people's head that they leave sometimes more confused than not. So I think the application, I think, as as doctor Jay said, you know, yeah, you can share, but you don't have to get so technical and, you know, talk I I do the same thing as he did. I might just simply say, in the Greek, this said this, but I would it it just gave clear more clarity to it to help them understand what it was. But for me, I think it was always making sure that when I gave that invitation and they left and went home, that they had a message and a truth from God's word that they could apply to their life and use at some point in that day or the next week or whatever.
Rick:And it was always fun to hear people come back and say, man, you preached Sunday on this, and, boy, Wednesday, I had to put that into practice.
Anthony (Dr. J):That's right. That's right.
Rick:So I think that's you know, to me, that's the most important thing.
Anthony (Dr. J):The most powerful preachers I ever heard was my grandfather. I used to tell people when they come to my office, and I would show them my grandfather's bible, and I would say to them, my grandfather had an eighth grade education. He studied sitting beside a well out in the oil field. And I I would end by always saying to them, I will live the rest of my life trying to preach with the same power and passion as my grandfather. He was a simple truth based word of God preacher.
Rick:Yeah.
Anthony (Dr. J):And God anointed that. People are not they don't they don't need to hear all the academics about us and how smart we are. I really try to would always try to preach where I was hitting somewhere about sixth or seventh grade. And if I did that and do that, the fact is the rest of the people will understand.
Rick:Mhmm. Well, I think one thing. I've I've used this illustration for, I think, to be honest with you, when when a preacher stands up to preach, it's like taking a 12 gauge shotgun with a scatter load.
Anthony (Dr. J):That's
Rick:right. Because you're hitting people that are brand new Christians, you know, just got saved, and they're like a baby bird. They've got their mouth wide open. They're ready to learn and grow. And you've got people at different levels.
Rick:And then let's just face it. You've got some that's been saved for a long time that have got content and sitting, soaking, and salary. You know? And and if you're not careful, you know, sometimes Christians, we can we can look at a brand new Christian and say, there, there. Give yourself enough time, and you'll backslide and get in fellowship with the rest
Anthony (Dr. J):of it. Right. That's
Rick:right. So I think that, you know, you're trying to hit you know, you're really trying to hit a broad spectrum of people of where they are spiritually. And, and that's that's a challenge for a pastor. But you got some that are excited to be there, wanna learn, wanna grow, that are on the meat. You got some that's just fill on the milk, and you got some to be honest with you who just don't care.
Anthony (Dr. J):Rick, when you say that if if you preach the word as we've talked about and you're faithful to it, here's what I've discovered. If I'm faithful to the word, God will take that word and and do things in people's lives that I never I could have never dreamed. He'll touch people. I'll be preaching on tithing, and he'll bring somebody to salvation. I mean, it's the work of the Holy Spirit.
Anthony (Dr. J):But I've also known whenever I have failed to be faithful to the word, nothing much happened. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Rick:Well, has it do you remember the times where you have prepared and, man, I mean, you have just prepared and you feel like, oh, man. This is a great sermon. And you preach a sermon, and it you just kinda like you know?
Anthony (Dr. J):And Yeah. I remember a few of those.
Rick:Others others were Yeah. You prepared, but you really trusted and you rested and you were really synced in to the Lord like, God, you know, if you don't show up today, nothing's gonna happen. And maybe you preach it and you feel like, ah, that's, you know, wasn't one of my best, and yet God showed up and people get saved and their lives were changed. I think it's a reminder to all of us. It's all about him.
Rick:It's not about us. Amen. You gotta have your heart ready. You gotta be you do the work. But I think the most important thing I learned in preaching was making sure I was where I needed to be in my relationship and my walk with him.
Tom:That's really good.
Anthony (Dr. J):Can I share something that a layman taught me to do that helped me? And still, I do it to this day. When I finish everything, the last thing I do is usually, I would get up Sunday morning, and I would do this. I pray through my sermon. Mhmm.
Anthony (Dr. J):Literally, point by point. I pray through my sermon and commit it to the Lord. And It's really good. A layman taught me that. He did that with his Sunday school lesson.
Anthony (Dr. J):And which, by the way, should say that we ought to listen to our layman too. We can learn a lot from them. Yes. Amen. But it really helped me and still helps me.
Anthony (Dr. J):It makes that sermon alive and fresh, and it sinks it in my heart. So it's a little it's a little side thing, but I think it's an important one that may help somebody.
Tom:Yeah. I like that a lot.
Anthony (Dr. J):That's good.
Tom:No. This is something that we have kind of hit on, but I think it's worth kind of asking the question point blank. Because one of the things that you've both seen in your fifty plus years of ministry is the access to preaching has become more readily available now than ever. Right? And and even now, you get on Instagram and you, you know, people see a two minute clip and they're they're built up, they're edified, they feel like they've got what they need, but people are putting their best out there, and that's what you have to compete with as a pastor.
Tom:So in in the midst of readily accessible messages of the best preachers in the globe, in the world, right here and right now, how do you compete with that? Or a better way to say it is, how do you stay focused and stick to what God has called you to do knowing that the people that are in your audience are seeing this constantly regularly in their feed on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, wherever?
Rick:Well Hi, Rick. I think for me, like I said earlier, that you get people coming and they bombard you. They've listened to this guy or that guy, and and they're impressed with him or whatever. And at at first, I will tell you I probably fell into that trap because I felt like I was having to be those guys or at least try. And and as I said, I came back to just understanding who I was.
Rick:And, Ray, you hit on it a while ago. I never wanted to view this as a job but as a calling, and I knew that God had called me and equipped me. There was a time that I went through a very small season, but a season, and Anthony probably remembers this because I shared it with him, where I struggle. I didn't think I could preach, to be honest with you, because I had got so bombarded at a time in my life in ministry where, you know, it's like, well, you gotta be this. You gotta be that.
Rick:And, you know, he helped me, but my wife probably is the biggest she looked at me. She said, honey, she said, listen. I've listened to you all these years, and you are preaching the word. You just continue to be Rick Fry, and don't you worry about anybody else.
Ray:That's good.
Rick:And when that happened, I got back into the word, and it's like, god just reaffirmed in my heart this calling and who I was. And so I I quit worrying about that. I I I didn't allow that to, you know, take up my time or my energy. And my preaching, to be honest with I think, got better because I was free in Christ just to be who God had called me to be. That's good, man.
Rick:I didn't let it worry me. At first, I did. Like I said, it was more in my younger years of my life. But as you get older, you kinda just look at that and go, You know? This is this I know who I am, and and my my worth and my value is in Jesus Christ, period.
Anthony (Dr. J):Right. That's right.
Rick:And when we understand that, then we don't allow other things to rob that. You know, Satan wants to do that. I mean, he wants to he wants to get you so down on yourself that you walk to the pulpit and feel like you can't preach, and you're not as good as this guy or that guy. So when you just allow yourself to be free in Jesus and you spend time in the word, you spend time in that quiet time allowing it to be fresh and new and God just cultivating your heart, then, boy, listen. You're you're just free to be who you are in Christ.
Ray:So you're telling me, Rick, that the key isn't a new fog machine, an an enclosed drum pit, a better worship band, a better light show. Is that what you're telling me?
Rick:Well, you know, that's you know? I think what happens, can I I think all of us do this? Man, I think one of the I think one of the great tragedies in American Christianity, especially in our churches today. We have shuffled sheep more than we have really discipled and equipped.
Tom:Right. Once it real
Rick:And and I think that what has happened is, you know, all of us know we've got church members that have been members of every church in town because it's what's the new circus in town? What's the new show in town? What's the new gimmick in town? And so people hop from church to church to church, so there's there's not a commitment anymore a lot of times in our churches, that stickability. And and so if you're not careful as a pastor, you feel like you've got to compete with that.
Rick:And so which is what I think Satan wants to pull you down that rabbit hole to get you where you're not concentrating on doing what you're called to do, and that is preach the word, disciple and equip your people. And if we're faithful to do that, God will bless it. Mhmm. He will just you know, the scripture tells us, you know, seek him first. Make him the priority.
Rick:And when he is the priority, boy, God will bless you. He'll open up. He says, if you're faithful in little things, I can trust you with greater things. And and that's not just financially. That's in everything.
Rick:So, yeah, don't don't feel like you gotta compete with a show. I've I've got one enemy, and it's not the local church down, you know, down the street. It's Satan.
Ray:Period. That's good. That's good.
Anthony (Dr. J):I applaud what Rick has said. I think he's answered the question very, very well. I would only add at this point, and I'm gonna I'm I'm gonna use an illustration. Every pastor has an ace in the hole. That's probably not a good illustration for this.
Anthony (Dr. J):Yeah. And here it is. Nobody loves your people more than you do. Amen. You are the pastor, the the shepherd, the under shepherd that God has called to lead those people.
Anthony (Dr. J):And what I would do is encourage them to listen to all of these other people if they're sound and solid and just say, oh, listen to them. Learn from them. But the fact is that you know, I love Alistair Beggs, but Alistair Beggs are not gonna preach a funeral of that deacon. Yeah. You are.
Anthony (Dr. J):Mhmm. And those people know that. So let them listen and encourage them to listen to people who are solid, but you're the under shepherd. You just go love your people, be faithful to do what you do. You don't need to have to be anybody else.
Anthony (Dr. J):That's what Rick has underscored. You be the man that God's called you to be. You love those people. You are their. You're their shepherd.
Anthony (Dr. J):That's what God's called you to do. And I find that sure. There are some tough people in the church, but by and large, your people love you, and they care they wanna hear you more than they wanna hear anybody else. Mhmm.
Ray:Yeah. I have a a guy that I've coached that actually has a speech impediment. I mean, very, very noticeable speech impediment. And we worked through that. And I said, let me just tell you something, man.
Ray:I think you're in good company. He says, what do you mean? I said, dude, you're a modern day Moses.
Rick:Yeah. Yeah.
Ray:Yeah. Moses says, hey, Lord. You can use a guy with me with a speech impediment? And look what look what God did. I said, dude, it's the secret sauce.
Ray:I think I think for people that are coming in and they're visiting, you've got their attention right from the get go. Use that speech impediment to your to your benefit.
Tom:Yeah.
Ray:And it freed him up to be exactly what you said. And they love their pastor whether his speech impediment because he's not letting that get in the way of God using him. Yeah. And we all have weaknesses. Not all of we're not No one's sitting around scorecarding who's the best preacher in town.
Ray:I love the fact that we can go listen to some other folks and do those type of things. But one of the things I'm hearing more than anything today is is to be yourself. Yeah. Thinking about you guys and thinking about your your years of experience, and what a blessing, Tom, to have guys Absolutely. That have been there, done that?
Anthony (Dr. J):Old
Ray:dudes. But clearly guys that are not it's not over yet, but you are showing us how to end strong. I I mean
Tom:I wanna point something out. Both of their years in ministry is older than me. Just wanna point that out. But it's a wealth of wisdom. I mean, but it like, Ray, you were saying, though, it has been incredible just to be able to hear from seasoned ministers that have walked and and gone ahead and paved the way.
Tom:I mean, I'm I'm taking a lot from this. I've got so many notes here. Yeah. I know. But this has been really good.
Ray:Well and my point was gonna be this. It's fair to say that you guys have gained knowledge over the years. I mean, Rick Fry of 15 is not the Rick Fry of, '45. Yeah. But but you've you've gained you've gained some knowledge over the years.
Ray:You know what else you've gained? You've gained some experience. Yeah. And what we've benefited from today is your knowledge and your experience, But you can have that knowledge and experience, and if you don't apply it, then we've lost out on the wisdom. And that's what you just said Yep.
Ray:Is the wisdom. So now I'd like to end on this question to both of you. No doubt people that will be listening to this this podcast, there'll be a variety of ages. There might be a 15 year old new preacher. There might be a guy that's 65 and wondering if he can hang on another day.
Ray:Mhmm. Here's my deal. What would you guys say? Let's just use Rick as an example. What would the current Rick Fry, the current Doctor.
Ray:J say to the 15 year old Rick or the young Doctor. Jordan? What would you say to them having the knowledge that you gained, the experiences that you put under your belt, what wisdom would you share to that younger you?
Rick:I I think for me, don't take time away from your family. For me, I found myself churches are working to death. We know that. And if you have a heart for pastorate and your people And I found myself getting so busy that that in my younger years, I I should have been home more, to be honest. And what really got my attention one day was Jared at that time was like, he was young.
Rick:I can't remember exactly what age he was, but he was old enough that he called my secretary and said, I want an appointment with my daddy. Wow. And and so he came in and sat down with me. And I realized at that moment, had been away from the house a lot. I'd been visiting and knocking on doors, trying to this is when I pastor at Southwood Baptist Church in Tulsa, trying to help a church that was way low to grow and get healthy.
Rick:And and I realized at that time, I was also sacrificing my time with my family. And so for me, if I were to look back, I would make sure I made those adjustments. And and thank God I did. And that to me would be one of the most important things. Don't don't sacrifice your your family on that altar of being just a pastor.
Rick:You you can do it well both ways. I've I've learned to do that. But make sure you you make sure you keep because if things fall apart at home, believe me, it's gonna fall apart at church. Yeah. So goes the home.
Rick:So goes the family. So goes everything else. So Mhmm. Make sure you stay where you need to be there. And usually, your wife will help you if you let her.
Anthony (Dr. J):Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly right. Well, Rick has modeled that very well. I promise you.
Anthony (Dr. J):I know he's one of my best friends and somebody I've watched through the years. All of us who are in ministry have gone through that very issue of having to deal with taking time away from our family. I I found that Paula and my kids never had a problem if I if there was a death and we were in the middle of a dinner and I had to get up and leave. They understood that. It's when I took other time.
Anthony (Dr. J):And, you know, your family, here here's here's the way they often look at it. They look at it as if they are pitted against God. Now think about that. Mhmm. And and guess what?
Anthony (Dr. J):They never win. They know that. If God's the one well, the problem is that God's not the one that drives away the margins of our life, and God's not the one who wants us to work twenty four hours a day and never give time to our family. So Rick's exactly right. And I've lived that myself and and struggled with it like every other pastor.
Anthony (Dr. J):I would say that to a a young preacher, particularly in the area of preaching, discipline yourself. That's the hard part. And I agree. I wanna ask Billy Graham, what would you do if you had it all do over again? He would say, I would preach less and pray more.
Anthony (Dr. J):And I would tell you that if I were to go back and think about my own life, I would preach less, pray more. You say, well, I'm a pastor. Have yeah. But you're preaching less than Rick and I did. I promise.
Anthony (Dr. J):Yeah. But pray more. Mhmm. Let that sermon live within you, and let God bring out of you what he wants to bring to your people. We've all taken Rick and I could take the same text.
Anthony (Dr. J):We would we would have the same truth but different application. Right. And the reason is because God's speaking truth through Rick, and he's speaking truth through me. Mhmm. And that truth is applied in different people's lives.
Anthony (Dr. J):So let God bring that sermon alive in you before you preach it.
Tom:That's good.
Ray:Well, fellas, we could go on hours and hours and hours. It's probably how a lot of people feel when they hear you preach on Sunday. I'm joking.
Anthony (Dr. J):Watch it now. Watch it now.
Ray:You know, we do have to put a bow on this podcast. Man, what a rich, rich day. What an honor to be with you guys. This topic is so awesome, and, we're just really glad you were here Thank you. On the Winning Ministry podcast.
Ray:You know, the Winning in Ministry podcast is brought to us by the Edified Leaders Ministry. And Edified Leaders provide donor funded coaching to pastors and ministry leaders and is devoted to encouraging them to reach their full potential in life and ministry. And after today, probably raise up a whole lot better preachers.
Tom:That's right.
Ray:Thanks to you guys.
Tom:That's right.
Ray:But to learn more about the work of edify leaders or to be a part of this movement, head over to edifyleaders.org.
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