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Welcome to The People of Work, the podcast where we explore the unique journeys that bring people to their careers. Every episode is a deep dive into the twists, turns, and surprises that shape how individuals find their career paths—whether they’re engineers, artists, baristas, CEOs, or anything and everything in between.
It’s not about the destination; it’s about the story. Through honest conversations, we’ll uncover the moments that define careers, the challenges overcome, and the lessons learned along the way. These are real stories from real people, celebrating the diversity of work and the individuality of the people behind it.
Join us as we break down stereotypes, embrace the unexpected, and shine a light on the human side of work.
[00:00:00] Rashad Cunningham: Every pastor must preach, but every preacher is not a pastor. There are a lot of people who can go from place to place and travel around preaching the word of God, but aren’t meant to care for a flock. I learned really early on that there’s a big difference between standing on a stage on a Sunday morning and laying your life down Sunday to Sunday, every week.
[00:00:26] Ami Graves: You are listening to The People of Work, the podcast that dives into the real stories behind what people do for a living and how work shapes who we are. Hey everybody. Welcome back to The People of Work with your host, Ami Graves, and I’m so excited to introduce you to our guest today, Rashad Cunningham. I would tell you what Rashad’s title is, but I actually think he’s got multiple titles. So we’re just going to dig into that and learn all kinds of things about Rashad today—about his journey, his career path, the pivots, and there have been some pivots, my friends. So Rashad, thank you for joining me today. I’m thrilled to just share your story with our listeners, and I know I’m going to learn from you today, so let’s dig in. You ready?
[00:01:11] Rashad Cunningham: Yeah, I’m ready. I’m excited to be here. Thanks for having me, Ami. We’ve been fighting for this one, so let’s make it happen.
[00:01:17] Ami Graves: We have, yeah. Our schedules were—we were having a tough time getting this scheduled, so I’m really excited to have you here. So the full purpose of this podcast is really to just understand the individual, the person, and why you chose the career you chose—what led to some of the pivots and maybe a new career—and I know you’ve had some of that. So I want to kind of take it back to the beginning of Rashad. Talk to me about when you were a young boy, what kinds of careers were in your mind, and what kind of conversations were happening in your home about work, if any?
[00:01:53] Rashad Cunningham: Yeah, so growing up from Indianapolis, over by the fairgrounds—that’s where I grew up—sports were huge. So basketball was the dream. I’m a big Magic Johnson fan, but also hip-hop has always been a major part of my life. Words have always been a major part of my life. My mom is a poet. She loves the oldies—R&B and soul. And back then you had those little cassettes that would have the words inside of them, so I could see how, you know what I mean? So I could read the words, and I used to plagiarize ’em and send ’em to girls.
[00:02:28] Ami Graves: Honestly, did we just buy cassette tapes and CDs just to open the booklet and read the words?
[00:02:34] Rashad Cunningham: Just to open the booklet. That was it.
[00:02:36] Ami Graves: These youngins don’t know—these kids don’t know.
[00:02:39] Rashad Cunningham: But yeah, for me, I wanted to write in some way, shape, or form. I wanted to play sports—one of the two. That’s kind of all I wanted to do with my life. My mom pretty much affirmed me in both of those and how mamas can be. My mom was extra, you know what I mean? No matter how good or bad, I was the best in the world to her. And so that spoke to me, you know what I mean? At least one person believed in me.
[00:03:03] Ami Graves: I love that. I love that. So your mom was a poet—was she encouraging you to go into a creative field, or was the conversation more “get a job right after school and make money” or “go to college or go be creative”? Were you guys talking about stuff like that?
[00:03:19] Rashad Cunningham: Yeah, so early on we talked about it because she always would want me to write with her. That was kind of our little thing—we wrote a lot of poetry together. We’re an adoptive family as well, and so as we adopted more, my siblings and the family grew. She had to space that time out. And so when your family’s like ten siblings, you tend to start kind of finding your own way at some point. Because of basketball, we moved out to Brownsburg, which was a predominantly white area, and I was the only Black kid at the school at that time. So my mom, she started dreaming about all the things I could do to make a difference in that way, but I wasn’t trying to hear all that at the time. I’m like, yeah, you kind of took me out of where I’m familiar with and what I’m comfortable with. I’m just trying to navigate and maintain at this point. And so she had dreams of me going to college and things like that, but for me it was more like, I’m just trying to survive—fighting with some identity things as well. And so I rushed off to the Navy instead. And so I’m sure she wanted other things for me, but that’s just kind of the route I took. I was just trying to get out of Brownsburg at the time.
[00:04:22] Ami Graves: Yeah, let’s talk about that because we both live in Brownsburg now, right? And you work in Brownsburg as well, and so this is kind of home to you as well as me. But I also grew up in Brownsburg at a time where there were very few—not just Black students—really minorities of any kind.
[00:04:40] Rashad Cunningham: Minorities of any kind.
[00:04:41] Ami Graves: It was a very bright community, as my husband would say. Yeah. And so I am curious about—because I have a viewpoint as a white female—what that experience was for me, but I’m really interested in your experience. You said you wanted to get out of Brownsburg. I want to hear about your feedback and your experience as being literally a minority in an all-white school and community and how that impacted you and shaped you.
[00:05:10] Rashad Cunningham: It tremendously impacted me as I’m looking at my life now—we’ll get to that soon—but for me, it was a culture shock when we moved out to Brownsburg, and it was second semester of my freshman year. Nobody looked like me. I mean, nobody walked, talked, had my flavor, whatever you want to call it—there was nothing to identify with. And so that had its own challenges, especially with the fact that I’m young and still trying to figure out my own identity in general. So at some points, I’m too hood for a certain group of people. Then you had a group of people who thought they were hood—I wasn’t hood enough for them, you know what I mean? You’re coming into your hormones, so you want to date and whatnot, and your mom’s not necessarily approving of white girls yet. And it’s just a lot there.
[00:05:55] Rashad Cunningham: And so for me, the tough part was just trying to not become somebody that assimilated and was just okay with some of the things that were racist and whatnot, but also not becoming a victim and assuming everything is because I’m Black as well. That balance at 14, 15, 16, 17—that’s hard when you don’t realize how evil the world can be and yet how loving people can be at the same time. I wouldn’t say I navigated well. Like any teenager, I chose what was best for me in my mind, and that led to a lot of bad decisions—which included me not doing good in school because of me—and ended up just kind of settling to go to the Navy. I just wanted to get away from it all because I thought there was just a whole lot more out there.
[00:06:45] Ami Graves: You bring up an interesting point, and I appreciate you saying that about not blaming every situation that could happen—negative or positive—on the fact that you are Black. Because as you know, we’re an adoptive family as well. My husband and I call it the 2025 Brady Bunch because we are so blended in so many ways. But one of the things when my twins came home from the Democratic Republic of Congo—my older daughters at the time were 13 and 7, or 13 and 6—and I will never forget walking into a Target, the whole group, all four of my girls and me, and I can’t remember which of the older daughters it was, I think it was my teenager who was 13 at the time. And she said, “Why is everybody staring at us?” And she was getting really frustrated and angry, and she immediately was thinking, “It’s because they’re Black.”
[00:07:36] Ami Graves: And I said, “You know what, Madison…” Again, this is a 13-year-old kid who’s navigating now having two brown sisters. But she was concerned that somebody might be thinking something negative about a white family having Black children. And is it possible? Sure it’s possible. But I said to her, “You know what? Listen. Maybe they’re looking at all of us and thinking, wow, what a beautiful family. Maybe they’re thinking, oh my gosh, I know somebody that adopted. Maybe they’re thinking, I love her hair. Maybe they’re thinking, who knows what they’re thinking—but we can’t make those assumptions.” Nobody said anything negative to us. I mean, we didn’t have those kinds of negative experiences, at least early on. So I appreciate you saying that, because I felt that in that moment—the need to educate Madison and all my kids that the world is a tough place, no question—but let’s not… it is hard enough on its own without our assumptions adding to that.
[00:08:25] Rashad Cunningham: There it is. There it is. Oh yeah, that’s good. That’s good. That’s what I had to grow into—realizing that sometimes… my wife, I met my wife in high school, and there were some that looked at us as an interracial relationship that—it was completely because I’m Black, she’s white. There were others that were just like, that’s neat, that’s beautiful. And so we just had to come to that agreement too. Someone’s going to hate, someone’s not going to hate—it doesn’t matter.
[00:08:48] Ami Graves: You still got to live your life.
[00:08:49] Rashad Cunningham: We love each other. That’s all that matters.
[00:08:50] Ami Graves: We love each other, right. So talk to me about the Navy. Where were you stationed? How was your experience?
[00:08:58] Rashad Cunningham: So I went to the Navy fresh out of high school. I was still 17—matter of fact, my mom had to sign for me. So bootcamp is in Great Lakes. I made it through bootcamp, went to my A-school, which was in Great Lakes. They lied to me. They said I might be in San Diego or Tokyo—of course, my A-school was right across the street. And honestly, they gave me an entry-level discharge one year in because I wasn’t fit for duty. Bootcamp was fun, but after that I was too close to home and still could come home whenever I wanted to and really made, once again, a lot of bad decision making. My entire background is full of just me searching for identity, searching for belonging, searching for approval in everything but what I believe in now. And so it just led to me fighting for things that led me down some dark, dark, dark alleys, you know what I mean?
[00:09:54] Ami Graves: Yeah. So when you were discharged from the Navy, how were you feeling about that in the moment when you came home and called your mom and discharged, coming home? Tell me about that.
[00:10:04] Rashad Cunningham: I was relieved.
[00:10:06] Ami Graves: Were you?
[00:10:06] Rashad Cunningham: Yeah, because like I said, bootcamp was fun. I was in shape. I enjoyed it. But I don’t work well in boxes. I don’t like to be held back, held down, told what to do. I’m more of a “give me the guardrails and let me run—don’t control me.”
[00:10:25] Ami Graves: And yet you went into the military, right?
[00:10:27] Rashad Cunningham: Right.
[00:10:29] Ami Graves: Of all places.
[00:10:31] Rashad Cunningham: It didn’t work for me. I actually still admire people who serve in our military. I advise it for many, many people—it just didn’t work for me. That’s why college didn’t work for me. Structure without freedom, it’s just not good for me. So I was actually relieved and came home, talked to my mom, and was like, “Hey, I’m going to go do this Atterbury Job Corps thing,” which is in Edinburgh, Indiana. And I went there—it’s almost like a hood college, in a sense. You got two ways of getting there. Either you choose to go there the way I did, or you’re on your third strike with the government, and you’re between the ages of 16 and 24, and they’re like, “Here’s another option before we send you in.” So when you get there, it is not what they show online or what they show on the commercials. But I was able to pick up the trade of electrician and some computer technology stuff. I never actually went and used any of it, but it was there. I learned that I was a really, really, really good rapper. So that gave me, I guess, my confidence that I’m not just a good rapper in Brownsburg, Indiana, but I’m also amongst these other people that are from backgrounds like myself—I’m still respected in that way. And so hip-hop became a major part of my life after that.
[00:11:51] Ami Graves: Yeah. Let’s dig into that. Tell me—I mean, I know a little bit, but I want to hear you tell this story about what it led to.
[00:11:59] Rashad Cunningham: My wife is going to crack up. So I end up coming home, and the government pays you for graduating from Atterbury Job Corps—or at least they did back in 2002. I should have used it for all these beautiful things that would’ve been better for me. And she was my girlfriend at the time—me and my wife—and instead, I went and bought recording equipment because I’m going to make it as a rap artist. I’m going to be an MC. Once again, my mama has always told me, if you put your mind to something and you give your all to it, just chase after it until it’s a no. My wife, being younger and us being naive and just her being in my corner, she supported every bit of it until she couldn’t no more. I started making music and didn’t get past local celebrity—didn’t get past being really well known in Hendricks County—but it was success to me, you know what I’m saying? Because again, remember my background of wanting to belong, wanting to be seen. Music gave me an outlet to kind of express who I am and win people over through that. But it also led to a lot of darkness as well. It’s where my alcoholism started, and it’s where some of my other very, very bad habits took over. And so it was a blessing and a curse in some senses of what it did.
[00:13:20] Ami Graves: In addition to rapping, were you doing some producing as well?
[00:13:24] Rashad Cunningham: Oh, lots of producing. In fact, I got to produce some music for Juvenile—who a lot of people from the ’90s know Juvenile—Doodlebug from Digable Planets (“I’m cool like that”) and a lot of others, and a lot of other local artists as well, like my brother EZ and a few others that just mean the world to me. But that became my call—that became more of my thing. I’ve always had insecurities on a camera, insecurities of hearing my voice, but being able to paint the backdrop for somebody else…
[00:13:56] Ami Graves: And you were already writing poetry with your mom from a young age, so it kind of all made sense.
[00:14:01] Rashad Cunningham: That became what took off. We created a production company called LexZZ Productions—me and my brother Alex—and that took off for us. We just became well-known beat makers all over, and that became just a real big “wow” accomplishment. So that was amazing.
[00:14:20] Ami Graves: Yeah. So I want to ask a logistics question about this. So you were making money doing this—this was your job?
[00:14:26] Rashad Cunningham: So in my opinion, a lot of people lie on this stuff, okay? They lie about, “Yeah, I make beats, and that’s how I make a living.” Nah, no, no, no, no. I made money, but we weren’t eating or paying the bills off of that. It was the “Hey, babe, let’s go to Olive Garden” type money, you know what I mean? Which was a step up from Taco Bell back then—that’s what it was. And so I had to keep a job, especially as you’re learning at this point. We had a daughter—my daughter Genesis—you’re trying to figure out how do I keep chasing my dream while still being responsible for my child and for my wife. I know people who went all in, like “Man, we’re just all going to have to suffer until I make it work.” And some come out on top, some don’t. I didn’t have the boldness to do that. I was like, yeah…
[00:15:15] Ami Graves: Well, you were meant for other things.
[00:15:17] Rashad Cunningham: Yeah, yeah, amen. But we still produce to this day. We’re still known decently, and people still reach out for beats. And so some people will call it a hobby, but it still makes money and it has led to other types of things that I do live off of even today because of my background in production and music.
[00:15:39] Ami Graves: Let’s talk about that. One of those things is, I mean, you’re obviously a pastor now, and it’s interesting because rapping and producing, while they might seem like exact opposite things from pastoring—and I think there are certainly a lot of differences—they both include storytelling. Because as a pastor, that is what you are: a storyteller. You’re sharing aspects of your own life, you’re obviously sharing stories from the Bible. I’m really interested in hearing your perspective on how those two things connected or interconnect for you.
[00:16:09] Rashad Cunningham: In hip-hop, the thing that grabbed me—it was never really the melody or the bass. It was always the words. The words always—like I said, going back to my mama, right? Words were everything my whole life. So because I love metaphors and similes and all the things I probably failed when I was in school but love now, the Bible, in a sense, in pastoring and preaching, I’m called to communicate a message I believe in. And if you know anything about battle rap, your conviction matters. Like if we’re going to be talking about each other and each other’s mamas and everything else, I don’t believe you if you don’t sound convincing. And your presentation matters. Your persuasion matters.
And I gave my life to Christ in 2011, and about a year later, I knew I was meant to be a preacher. I wasn’t sure if I was supposed to pastor yet, but I knew I was to preach. As I watched my pastor preach, I’m like, man, I’m supposed to be doing that up there—not from a cocky standpoint, but from an actual, “I can proclaim what I believe very well too.”
And so immediately my pastor’s son, Chris, was like, “Hey man, aren’t you that rapper that used to rap?” And I was like, “Yeah.” And at the time, I’m new to all of this in 2011. I’m like, “I can’t rap for God—isn’t that a sin? Isn’t hip-hop a sin or whatever?” He’s like, “No man, have you heard of these people?” He named some people I’d never heard of.
My first ministry was rapping for God. It was taking the Bible and trying to display it in a way that was persuasive to the youth. And so I started studying and memorizing and finding ways to make the Bible rhyme in the verses that I put out there, and just started taking music that was already popular secularly and remixing it for Jesus, per se. And that turned into me looking at my pastor and saying, “All this studying I’ve been doing, I think I could preach too.” And you start preaching and that takes off. And then naturally when you preach, as people respond to the message, you start realizing, well, some people—he’s calling you to shepherd those that are responding to the message that you’re preaching. And that’s what changed my life.
[00:18:24] Ami Graves: You mentioned—I’m curious—you mentioned you said that there’s a difference between pastoring and preaching.
[00:18:30] Rashad Cunningham: Yeah.
[00:18:30] Ami Graves: I haven’t heard this before. So enlighten me—what does this mean?
[00:18:34] Rashad Cunningham: I’ve said often, every pastor must preach, but every preacher is not a pastor. Preaching is conveying the word of God before any audience anywhere. You preach the gospel, you preach the text, you preach the Bible. There are a lot of people who can go from place to place and travel around preaching the word of God but aren’t meant to care for a flock. A pastor is a shepherd.
I learned really early on that there’s a big difference between standing on a stage on a Sunday morning and laying your life down Sunday to Sunday every week. And so when I first felt called to pastoring, I thought it was all about preaching. I’m like, yeah, I could do that—work on sermons, preach on the stage, work on sermons, preach—you’re going to pay me to do that? Amen. Then I found out really quickly, no, no, no—that’s about 10% of the call. The rest of that call is sacrificially laying your life down for those that God has entrusted you with. That was a game changer for me.
[00:19:44] Ami Graves: I’m curious if there was a pivotal moment in time where—and I know you said in 2011 you decided to give your life to Christ—was there a pivotal moment where something happened that made you decide to do that? Or was it multiple moments that kind of built up over time and all of a sudden you’re like, “There’s no other place to go,” right?
[00:20:07] Rashad Cunningham: Once again, this isn’t everybody’s story, right? This is mine. So about five weeks earlier from the day I gave my life to Christ, a guy I produced for, Radames, he was doing this thing called Soulful Saturday at a church, where basically the pastor was having rappers come in—as long as they didn’t cuss, they could rap—and then he was going to give a message in the middle of it, which blew me away.
At the time, I was a very promiscuous person. I had cheated on my wife, just a very deadbeat human being in general, and literally was trying to buy time because my wife had found me yet again in the wrong. When EZ invited me to come to this event, he said, “Look, man, I know your wife don’t trust you going to clubs anymore to hear your music, but here’s an event that you could bring your wife and your daughter to.” And I’m like, “Where’s it at?” He’s like, “In Brownsburg.” What? “And the pastor’s Black.” In Brownsburg? Right? In Brownsburg.
So I told my wife, “Hey, there’s this event. Let’s go and be a family. It’s at this church in Brownsburg right around the corner.” So we go, and I’m strictly there just to hear my beat. The pastor comes out—his name is Noel Taylor—and he’s wearing Jordans. I’m a Jordan guy. I’m like, “What’s going on? They’re rapping in the church. This just ain’t no church.” He sent a message—it wasn’t earth-shattering or nothing—but my wife grabbed my hand and she said, “Can we come back tomorrow, since we’ve never been to church as a family?”
And what I didn’t know is that the Friday before this event, she told God, “If you’re real and if you’re up there, you need to do something, or I’m leaving him.” Right?
And so what ended up happening is we came back, and that just happened to be Easter Sunday. He was preaching out of this book in the Bible that’s called Romans. And that book just happens to really hit my heart because it’s word-heavy. And as a hip-hop guy, he caught my attention. He kept wearing the Js. He also cut hair, and he was cheaper than every barber. So I started going over to get my hair cut, and he’s obviously doing what a pastor would do—he’s pouring in without me even realizing it.
[00:22:18] Rashad Cunningham: He’s just cutting my hair. So five weeks later, May 28th, 2011, I’m at his house in the kitchen with knots in my stomach, and he was making coffee. And he looked at me—he used to call me, he was an army vet, so he said, “What’s up, Soja?” And I just started crying, and I was like, “Man, you’ve been talking about this Jesus cat, and you said that he loves me no matter what.” And I told him every deep, dark secret, and I was waiting on him to flinch. And if he flinched, I was going to say, “Your Jesus must not be real.”
Then he didn’t flinch, Ami, and I gave my life to Jesus that day. I burned every bridge. I had hurt so many people. So many people had given up on me. So many people thought I had very few years to live. And my wife, like I said, she was going to be out the door. My daughter barely knew who I was in terms of being a father, and I gave everything over to him that day.
[00:23:10] Ami Graves: Well, Brownsburg has changed. Let’s talk about from 2011 to now. Have you always lived in Brownsburg since that time?
[00:23:18] Rashad Cunningham: Since that time, yes.
[00:23:19] Ami Graves: I just want to say for our listeners, for anybody who’s like, “Why is anybody living in Brownsburg?” let me just say that we both are here now, and Brownsburg has shifted. I mean, I’m 47, so I went to school here 30-plus years ago—went to high school here. Not a single, maybe one single Black person in the whole school. It is extremely diverse now. I’m so pleased to see over time the shift and the change and the acceptance. So let’s talk about what you’re doing, what you’ve been doing these last few years. You’re a pastor—I want to hear about that. I want to hear about your church. You are a man of many talents and trades. I’ve seen you as a pastor marry people, and it’s such a beautiful sight and gift that you have to bring people together—really, honestly.
[00:24:09] Rashad Cunningham: Thank you.
[00:24:09] Ami Graves: I think it’s such a gift of yours. So talk to me about your pastor life here in Brownsburg—what you’re doing and what it means to you.
[00:24:17] Rashad Cunningham: Yeah, it’s everything. I feel like the same community I tried to destroy when I was searching for identity, I was out here in my fear. My response in fear was, let me destroy everything I can. And so lo and behold, God called me back to the same community in which my reputation preceded me in such a bad way.
[00:24:42] Ami Graves: Not the way we hope.
[00:24:42] Rashad Cunningham: Yeah—not the way we hope, but that’s the story. That’s what showed the evidence and the power of Him at work. I am now privileged with the opportunity to be a bridge builder in a sense—from a kingdom approach. I am a Black pastor in a predominantly white congregation, predominantly suburban, all the different labels and stuff—but I’m never forced to assimilate who I am to match the culture. I’m allowed to stand on who Jesus is in me and invite people from all the things that divide us to come to who He is and be united in Him. It has its ups and its downs.
[00:25:24] Rashad Cunningham: But a brother of mine who’s another mentor, his name’s Ken Johnson—he said, “Rashad, you’ve been called to be a bridge. Expect to be walked on in that.” I’ve seen that. In laying my life down, our community’s been brought together in some of the hardest times culturally. I’ve seen hearts change that stood far one way or the other on all those left-right, Democrat-Republican type conversations come to a softened stance of loving one another. More importantly, it’s just been amazing being able to go back to the community that you once tried to destroy and actually be a part of what’s putting it back together—and the surrounding areas for that matter.
[00:26:07] Rashad Cunningham: And so that’s just been my call. And like I said, on both sides of any spectrum, I am disliked because I’m not aligning with a side. So there’s ups and downs to it, and you really have to be grounded in your identity in Christ. That’s for real. That’s what I didn’t have when I was younger, and that’s what shook me into all the things that I was doing trying to find it. Now that I have it, I get to stand tall saying, “Hey, I see why you feel that way about me, but if you give me the opportunity, if you give me permission, I will draw you into the love that I’ve received.”
And so yeah, pastoring has been amazing. When I was a part of a church plant called Church on the Rock in about 2015, 2016, I was the lead pastor there. And as our church grew, there were many people who needed to be married. And as I started marrying all these younger couples, I started realizing that their DJs weren’t very good DJs. “What if I start DJing the weddings too?” And I’m always doing their premarital and talking to them about their finances.
And I tell you what, becoming the pastor and the DJ became a thing that just became a calling card. It’s been a phenomenal ride that also speaks to many people who have a very negative view on Christianity when they’re like, “Wow, that person that was just proclaiming the gospel in the wedding is now helping us wobble.” You know what I mean? And yet isn’t compromising who he is in the midst of it all.
[00:27:35] Ami Graves: Yeah, that’s great. Do you have shame and guilt for how you used to live? And if so, how do you manage and deal with that? And if not, how? Because I think that that’s kind of a core human feeling when we’ve gone through some tough things or made bad decisions as a younger person.
[00:27:54] Rashad Cunningham: So I personally don’t have shame and guilt, but it’s not from the standpoint of ignoring what was—it’s just, that’s my faith. That’s my belief. The Bible says that while I was His enemy, while I was helpless, while I was a sinner, while I was ungodly—that’s when God demonstrated His love for me and died on the cross. Jesus died on the cross while I was those things. For me to have shame and guilt after knowing He paid the price for the things I’ve done would kind of be nullifying the work of Jesus Christ.
Now, on the other side of that though, I do have a conviction that those I come across over time who were victims of the consequences of my decisions—I have no problem confessing my wrong, asking for their forgiveness, and letting them know I’ve had a change of life and change of beliefs. And not everybody receives that. Some people are like, “Nope, don’t care, don’t like you.” And I’m okay with that too. I understand where that comes from.
[00:29:01] Rashad Cunningham: But I don’t harbor a “man, I’m a horrible human being still.” In fact, the guy I pastor with here, Drew, he had me say it like this: “They hate the guy that you used to be, and so that’s why you killed him when you gave your life to Christ.” And so I’m literally a new creation now, and I understand there’s still consequences from my past, but in terms of my standing with our Creator, I’m seen in the light of Jesus, who is my righteousness. So I don’t hold guilt and shame. And that’s why, once again, it’s not anything I’ve done—it’s literally because of what He’s done.
[00:29:39] Ami Graves: The grace of God.
[00:29:40] Rashad Cunningham: Amen. That’s where it’s at, right? That’s where it’s at.
[00:29:43] Ami Graves: Well, I’m curious for any listener who’s maybe considering—or even hasn’t considered until this moment—an opportunity to pivot into preaching, being a pastor, what’s something that you were not expecting that’s a part of this career, right, this job, that you experienced and you would want to share?
[00:30:09] Rashad Cunningham: There’s two major things—and they’re probably told to you, but when you’re a little young whippersnapper, you don’t think about it. So the first one is this: sheep is what we call the congregation. Sheep bite. Believers are still human beings that wrestle with their flesh. They’re still here in the world. They’re still tempted in every way. And the spiritual forces that are against us and everything are real. And so sheep bite each other, and they bite you because they want you to side with them. That’s one thing you don’t see coming when you don’t see behind the scenes of a church that you may attend on a Sunday morning, per se.
The other—
[00:30:51] Ami Graves: That seems really difficult to navigate.
[00:30:53] Rashad Cunningham: Yeah, it is. Especially when you’re called to love them all. You love everybody, no matter where they land. They have confessed Christ, they genuinely love Him, and yet they have all of their flawed opinions. And you’re supposed to love them where they’re at, because here’s the key—that’s where God loved you, while you were those things. So imitating our Shepherd and shepherding others was something that was a big moment for me.
I think the even more game changer is your family. You don’t realize the cost. I think my wife would say I’m pretty good about this balance, but there are times when I can say, I look at my wife and I say, “I don’t know what supernatural gift God has given you to share your husband who used to cheat on you, who you used to not could trust him going anywhere and you not knowing—to now, oftentimes, ministry tends to have more women asking for help than anything, and you trust me in those spaces. And you’ve given me the grace that you believe God has changed me.
[00:31:41] Rashad Cunningham: My daughter having to share her father with other spiritual daughters, per se, and spiritual sons, and me show up to things when I miss out on parts of her life—just the way your family has to share you. And then at the drop of a dime, sheep bite. And so that means they can bite your family too. Those are things that you don’t know how to describe—you just tell people until you go through it, you don’t get it. How to keep loving people even though they’re talking about your child, talking about your wife, has been eye-opening over the years.
[00:32:32] Ami Graves: Yeah, that’s really powerful because I think that, to your point, those are two things that you weren’t prepared to walk into and have to deal with. There is this perception that Christians think that they are perfect, and we know that that’s not true. Everybody’s flawed. Every single person is flawed.
[00:32:52] Ami Graves: But I appreciate your transparency in your story because I think that truly, whether you’re a pastor or not, stories connect us, number one.
[00:33:03] Rashad Cunningham: Yes, they do.
[00:33:03] Ami Graves: Right? And number two, if I feel a connection with somebody because maybe they’ve lived a certain way or made mistakes or done the wrong thing, and you are here in this current space with a strong conviction, a wonderful faith, blessed beyond measure in so many ways—it’s like, oh, I can experience that too despite all the flaws I have.
[00:33:26] Rashad Cunningham: That’s the key. I’m not vulnerable for shock factor. In fact, I’m an introvert. But early on in ministry, I was watching 8 Mile—of all movies, of all movies—and at the end of it, it’s battle rap once again. Hip-hop is everything for me. At the end of the movie, Eminem, when he’s going against that last rapper, he talks about himself so much, about the negative things about him, that he disarms his opponent so that the opponent can’t use nothing against him.
And for me, to be ministering in Brownsburg, where there was already so much negativity about the things I’d done in the past, God basically was like, “The way you’re going to not let the enemy use that—you’re going to tell it first. Let people know who you are. Let people know what I’ve brought you through.”
And what I’ve come to find is a lot of people—not everybody likes my preaching, and not everybody wants me as a pastor, I get that—but a lot of people that God’s entrusted me with are people who go, “I didn’t know until I heard your testimony that Jesus loved me too. I thought I was too this or too that or too far gone or too broken or whatever. And when I heard what He brought you through, now I know it’s possible.”
And so He’s used the vulnerability and the transparency to draw people to Him. He’s the hero of the story, not me. He’s the one that did it, right? And so it’s been a very powerful tool to invite people who would never, ever consider it to say, “Okay, well that’s why I thought I couldn’t be a Christian—because I thought I was too dirty.” And I’m like, “Oh no, you’re just right.”
[00:34:59] Rashad Cunningham: You’re qualified.
[00:35:01] Ami Graves: You’re qualified. Recently you’ve written a book. Talk to me about that.
[00:35:06] Ami Graves: I’m so excited to hear all about this. Tell me about it.
[00:35:09] Rashad Cunningham: I got one on my desk. Can I grab it real quick and just—
[00:35:11] Ami Graves: Yes, show it! Of course, we’re going to be on YouTube.
[00:35:14] Rashad Cunningham: I’m learning how to do this.
[00:35:16] Ami Graves: I love it. Talk to me about Spaces, the book Spaces.
[00:35:19] Rashad Cunningham: Kathy Myers, who owns one of our local papers, the Hendricks County Connect, she had asked me to write a faith column. I was like, my mama told me I can write. And Kathy said, “Hey, your sermons will reach only so many people, but I have an audience of 50,000 residents. Surely you want that message to go out.” So I said, “Okay, I’ll try it.” I was like, “But I don’t think I’m a good writer.” And she goes, “Well, we got editors for that.”
So I start writing, and that was about four or five years ago. I started writing for the Hendricks County Icon. I currently write for the Hendricks County Connect. Eventually, everybody kept telling me, “Man, you should write a book.” I kept telling them, “I’m not an author, I’m not an author.” And my wife finally said, “Rashad, after all these years you’ve been writing for that column, you’ve basically written a book.”
So I was preaching a sermon series called Spaces, and it’s all about permission-based discipleship. I had some congregation members, Ed and City Lifewood—they were like, “You should write this in a book. I’ve never heard this before.” And a few other members said the same thing. And I woke up one morning and felt God saying, “You’re supposed to write a book. I’ve given you every sign I can give you. It’s time to write that book.”
So I went to my wife April of this year and said, “Hey, I don’t preach in the month of April. God’s calling me to write a book. Will you just give me April?” Because you got to remember, I pastor, I DJ, I’m a chaplain for the fire department—there’s a lot of different ways that God has privileged me to serve Him. And so I was like, “Babe, will you give me a month to try to write this book? And if it doesn’t get done, then it doesn’t get done. But if God’s telling me to do it, I’m going to use the time that you allot.”
[00:36:53] Rashad Cunningham: So she gave me the month of April, and it’s already a part of who I am. I believe if we recognize the different spaces that we’re in, we won’t be as hurt by rejection, realizing that permission is different in every space. And so I’m huge on, instead of sitting in my office at a church building, why don’t I have most of my meetings at Best Friends Coffee & Bagels or The Breakfast Company or Rockstar Pizza?
Why? Because in that space, I can gain more access to people and gain more permission for the deeper conversations later. I want to help people realize that there are many different spaces that Jesus lived in, and He responded in different ways. Why don’t we talk about it and imitate Him?
And so in that, I took a month, put my head down, didn’t have to preach so I could really just focus on that, and wrote a book. It just so happened in a month. It just so happened that my pastor that led me to Christ, he had tried to write a book the year before and kind of got frustrated with the process a little bit. And when I was telling him I was writing a book, he said, “Man, I’ve already completely paid for my publishing, and I didn’t know what to do with it. That’s your publishing.” And literally transferred his publishing over to me.
[00:38:20] Rashad Cunningham: So I had Timothy McCain, TMM Publishing, publish my book—stuff I would’ve never done. I was just going to put it in a PDF and email it to some friends. And it was on Amazon. It was actually number 23 for Christian missionary books at one point.
[00:38:34] Ami Graves: I love that for you.
[00:38:35] Rashad Cunningham: It’s just huge. Just huge. But it unlocked something in me. I got two more books in the process now.
[00:38:41] Ami Graves: Oh, wonderful. Do you have names for them yet?
[00:38:44] Rashad Cunningham: Yeah. One is called For the Sake of the Lord. It’s a marriage book on a biblical marriage. And the other one—you’ll love this—it’s called More Value Than a Token. And it’s all about ministering as a minority without losing the mission. And it’s not just about ethnic minority—it’s about gender, education, disability, anything where somebody would hire you because of your difference, not because of your value. I’m wanting to really educate and empower and encourage people where the world may have given them a label as a token hire or a token this, but God is actually doing so much more behind the scenes with whatever the world is labeling it.
And if they just don’t fall into the identity that the world gives them, they will see that there’s so much more value there.
[00:39:34] Ami Graves: Learning—it’s so timely. I mean, right now, in the space, the age, the time that we are in, where DEI is challenged, removed—I mean, we just heard even this week, right, that Todd Young said the state was no longer going to be supporting SBIR government contracts that had DEI policies. So right here in Indiana.
[00:39:56] Ami Graves: So it’s a scary time, and I think that that message needs to be heard. So I don’t know if you’ve taken another month off to write that book, but I’m going to need you to just write that one out. Okay?
[00:40:06] Rashad Cunningham: I hear that. Amen. Amen. Yes.
[00:40:09] Ami Graves: So the newest thing—we’ll wrap this up. I know I’ve kept you for about an hour, but I really want to hear about your granddaughter. You have a new grandbaby. Let’s talk about her, Papa! I love that. I’m also a grandparent. Yeah, my granddaughter’s going to be five in March, and I have my second granddaughter on her way, and she’ll be arriving in December. So talk to me about how it’s different. They always say there is a big difference between being a parent and being a grandparent in all the best ways. So talk to me about how this new journey has been for you as a grandfather.
[00:40:43] Rashad Cunningham: It’s changed my life. My beautiful daughter Genesis had a daughter March 7th, 2025, named Selah, which means “to pause and reflect.” And when I tell you, that’s what happened. My sister Bianca passed away from an overdose in January, and a month later, my daughter had her daughter Selah. That’s actually what stopped me to not only write the book, but I made a Christian hip-hop album called Selah this year because I paused and was like, if I don’t make it long enough—because my sister’s death was so sudden—I said, if I don’t make it long enough, what can I leave behind that will teach my granddaughter everything I believe to be true? Everything I believe in.
And so that’s where the book and the album Selah came from. Well, anyway, back to Selah. So as you can see above me there, that is my baby girl. As of this recording, she is six months old. She has consumed everything in my life. She changes my schedule weekly. But I’ll tell you what—it’s amazing to see how God redeems. And I think if we’re just looking at this interview, that’s the story I’m starting to hear—I’m starting to hear my own redemption story.
Remember, I wasn’t the best father. I wasn’t around for my daughter in those beginning years. I missed a lot of the firsts—the rolling over and the crawling. And God has redeemed that for me in that now I am allowed to see all of those things in Selah, who looks just like my daughter at that age. So she’s been a great blessing from Him and just more confirmation that He sees me in the midst of all of my flaws and loves me enough to give me another opportunity to walk this journey and walk it with my daughter.
[00:42:41] Ami Graves: I love that. I love that for you and for your whole family. That’s really, really special. Rashad, wrap it up with your favorite—I have two things. One, your favorite non-Christian mainstream hip-hop album or rapper. I’m just curious.
[00:42:58] Rashad Cunningham: Common. The album Be.
[00:43:00] Ami Graves: Okay. In your words, guy. So there must be lots of really…
[00:43:02] Rashad Cunningham: Common messages. Lots of great words, and yeah, Common.
[00:43:05] Ami Graves: I thought you were going to say Kendrick, actually, because Kendrick does a lot of that.
[00:43:09] Rashad Cunningham: Kendrick is great, but Common—that’s my greatest album, album of all time.
[00:43:13] Ami Graves: And then lastly, your favorite—or maybe favorite in this season of your life—scripture that you’re kind of clinging to.
[00:43:20] Rashad Cunningham: First one is the one I’m preaching this weekend—Ephesians 2:10: For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we could walk in them. To just know that the only thing that makes me His masterpiece is what Christ did, not what I did, and that I was created in Christ for something He’s already prepared. So I don’t even have to go create it—I have to go discover what He’s already prepared for me.
Look, that’s a People of Work message right there.
[00:43:48] Ami Graves: That is right there. Great.
[00:43:50] Rashad Cunningham: And then my second one that hits me every time is 2 Corinthians 5, specifically verses 14 through 16, where it says, The love of Christ compels us. We no longer value people according to the flesh. And unfortunately, a lot of people misinterpret that text to say that we don’t see color, but that’s not what it’s saying. It’s saying we don’t value people according to the values of the world anymore. So we see all the beautiful color and differences in everybody, and yet we don’t say that makes you higher or lower. Instead, we say, we see you the way Christ sees you—and He gave His blood for you. He died for you. You were blood-bought. So I no longer value people according to the flesh; I value people according to the love of Christ. And He gave His life for them, so that’s how I try to live my life.
[00:44:42] Ami Graves: I love that. Rashad preaching on The People of Work! Here we go. Rashad, thank you so much. It has been a real pleasure and honestly a gift to have you on the show—even just for me personally. I really appreciated this conversation today, and I know it’s going to resonate with listeners. So thank you for your time and all the wisdom that you’ve shared today. Appreciate you.
[00:45:05] Rashad Cunningham: Hey, Ami, thank you for having me.
[00:45:06] Ami Graves: All right, Rashad, have a good one.
[00:45:08] Rashad Cunningham: All right, you have a blessed one.
[00:45:09] Ami Graves: Take care. Thanks for tuning in to The People of Work. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to follow along and share it with someone who’d love these stories too. Do you or someone you know have a unique job or an inspiring work journey? I’d love to hear about it. You can find me on Instagram at The People of Work or visit thepeopleofwork.com.
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