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This isn’t your average podcast—it’s a radical little book club for your ears.
Each week on Assigned Reading, feminist business coach Becky Mollenkamp invites a brilliant guest to read and unpack a feminist essay. Together, they dive into the juicy, nuanced, sometimes uncomfortable questions these texts raise about power, identity, leadership, liberation, and more.
If you’ve ever wanted to have big conversations about big ideas—but without having to get dressed, make small talk, or leave your introvert bubble—you’re in the right place.
🎧 This show is for the nerdy, the thoughtful, the socially conscious.
💬 It’s for people who crave deeper dialogue, new perspectives, and human connection in a world full of sound bites.
📚 Think of it as a feminist book club you don’t have to RSVP for.
Assigned Reading is here to help you feel less alone, more seen, and newly inspired—with accessible essays, warm rapport, and the kind of smart conversations that stay with you.
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Becky Mollenkamp (00:00.078)
Hi, Lindsay, how are you?
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (00:02.942)
am excited for this conversation and I'm also nervous because as you know, we had to reschedule because I realized going into this, is so many juicy things I wanna talk about and I was pulling in other articles of things I've read. So I'm nervous because I hope I do this topic justice, but I'm so excited to talk about it.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:09.763)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:21.878)
Well, I'm glad you are excited and thank you for doing this and I'm feeling a little inferior. So let's put all of our insecurities out because I don't think I've done nearly as much research as you. sent me a couple of links, which I didn't even get to, but I did read the entirety of this and I did think about a few things and I looked up a few things. So we'll dig into all we can and also try not to go way overboard and turn this into our song. But I wonder if you can just start by giving like a very concise.
short short short like synopsis of what you felt about it. Did you love it? Hate it? Mixed feelings? Where do you land?
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (00:55.806)
mean, it's literally my life and it is things I have experienced, things I think about, things I talk about all the time. And that's why I was able to pull so many resources because there's other things that I have read. And as I told you, at the time that I was reading this, I also started watching The Handmaid's Tale, which I have since stopped because my mental health doesn't need it. But it's just like, can I swear?
Becky Mollenkamp (01:25.454)
Hell yeah, of course, or fuck yeah.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (01:26.486)
This shit, it runs deep and it's everywhere all the time. And because I am queer and I'm neurodiverse and I'm in a bigger body and like I there's all these places where I don't fit into the norm and I don't do what I'm told. And so it is such a lived experience and something I talk about often with people in my community in my world.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:49.868)
The place I want to start upfront is because I feel like it's best to get this what I sort of feels like an elephant in the room out of out early so that we can just acknowledge it and then discuss that and then get to the other parts of this, which is Adrienne Rich is a complicated was she's no longer here, a complicated person with complicated. There are people have any complicated feelings about her and her role in feminism because it has been made somewhat clear, I believe that she would fall in sort of that turf category.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (02:04.266)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:19.074)
right, of a trans exclusionary radical feminist has definitely at least shown a lot of support for folks in that world. And I think even within this, there were a few things that raised a little red flag of like, yep, there's a little of that, right? This whole like idea of what a real woman is that was a part of this. So I wonder, how do you feel as a gender nonconforming human about how do we take in information that is still useful and valid, potentially helpful?
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (02:20.831)
Yeah.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (02:48.138)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:49.688)
from somebody who's also problematic. Because this is a, yeah, very complicated. How do you feel about it?
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (02:51.094)
This is Becky you you are You're literally coming in with the biggest question right off the bat and like the way that my whole body has has kind of broken out in like one big shiver Because it is complicated and it is a question. I have been asking a lot the past probably six months You know, I'd love to talk about cancel culture because there there's cancel culture at play and there's the concept of what is it like
Becky Mollenkamp (02:58.158)
Take that.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (03:20.052)
throwing out the artist but not the art or whatever that, you know what I'm saying? So it is complex and I would say that I used to be much more hard lined on it and now I'm not. I understand that we all have deficits in our learning and our lived experience and understanding and important ideas are important ideas and sprinkling of these
Becky Mollenkamp (03:24.236)
Yeah, for sure.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (03:48.168)
awarenesses and sparks of conversation and growth are important. And what do they say? Even a broken watch is right twice a day. And so, you know, I think there's this awareness of, okay, what are the ideas? Are these ideas that are worth talking about?
Becky Mollenkamp (03:57.442)
place today.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (04:06.95)
Had this person been alive today and given more time, would they have changed? There are a lot of opinions I used to hold that were messed up because I didn't know. And then even around the trans conversation, but that's because I was gender nonconforming and I didn't understand all of this, right? So I like to lean into people have the capacity to grow and we can't always be jumping on people's throats if they're not
there yet. I'm gonna stop there. There's more nuance within this because I'm gonna get into conversations around causing harm, you know, and will I ever support JK Rowling? No. Will I ever give her a dime of my money? No. You know what I mean? So, you know, there is, the conversation doesn't end there, but I'm gonna stop there because I wanna hear your thoughts.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:52.12)
Fuck off, Joanne. Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:59.906)
Well, and I fall in a similar place. And it's like you said, it's complicated. I don't think, I think the idea of right and wrong answers around this feels very much of the binary that we're trying to escape. And so if that's true, then can we get to a place where it's both and both? think there are parts of this, especially at the time it was written, which I think is another piece that we have to take into consideration, are deeply important. And I think remain important. And
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (05:12.222)
Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:29.822)
I wouldn't, I'm not somebody who would advocate for any of those beliefs. I find it abhorrent and wrong. But can I also then say, can I take the pieces of this that I think are important and not even honor those, but just evaluate, critique, be with those, let those inform some of how I show up and think, but also know that there's much of this that I wouldn't, what she has to say that I wouldn't take. And that's...
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (05:50.964)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:54.218)
It's complicated and I know that and that's why I want to start there because there are going to be people, for some people, they're going to say, who's Adrienne Rich, right? And so for them, I also want to make sure that they know as we go into this, that I'm not here to say, let's idolize this person. And secondly, for those who do know, I want to make sure that you understand and I acknowledge that I am not a turf, that I don't agree with any of that. And I think there is something to what this is about that and the way she approaches this issue that I think is important that we need to talk.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (06:21.046)
Well, it's, you know, I always think of that, I would have saw a meme or something somewhere that talked about George Washington would have never known that dinosaurs existed.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:29.902)
Isn't this such a fun thing to think about?
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (06:32.102)
Right? And so like, it's like, again, we think about the time and we think about what she would have known and what she wouldn't have. Right? And so I just think again, just, gosh, you know, yes to everything you just said. But in one of your questions that you submitted, who's missing from this? I'm like, where's the trans people?
Becky Mollenkamp (06:52.814)
Right, right. Yeah, you know, it's interesting. So it was written in 1980. And this the reprint we're reading is from 2003 that has a bit of additional information. And that part is a little more challenging for me. If we were reading only the 1980 original print, I think I would also fall in a little more towards the like, let's honor that this was a different time and you know, whatever. And this is, there's still all of this that's missing and it's wrong. The 2003 reprint part and where she brings them where I'm like, okay, by now.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (07:01.482)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:21.07)
feels like there maybe should have been more awareness. And so that is challenging. But written in 1980, I mean, that's five years after I was born. I know that what I was still thinking in the 1990s, early 90s was still very much white feminism. I'm not exempt from having, like you said, evolved and grown and unlearned a lot that was inappropriate about my own thinking. Now granted, I was not I did not yet have a fully formed
brain. And by the time I did, I started to do more learning. But it took me into my 30s to really do a lot of this deeper work. And I'm still now 50 and doing it. That's what this whole podcast is about for me. Like I want to always be learning and and growing. And so I would like to hold hope that somebody who died in like 2012 maybe would have evolved within the Joanne Rowlings of the world. Let us not let her use her
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (07:48.534)
I'm good.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (08:03.136)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:12.514)
chosen name, right? Her, her whatever that would be like, no, you get to be the name you were born with, you don't get to identify differently. But anyway, I don't think you know, Joanne Rowling has clearly shown that she has no and there are plenty of others like her. And it's interesting to I think, and the part that I think maybe we can start to shift towards the lesbian piece of this, because that's big part of it, is I have noticed too, and tell me what you think, but there does seem to be in that turf area, a strong group of lesbian women in particular.
who seem to be wanting to kind of control this definition of womanhood, of lesbianism, I hate that word, of the lesbian experience, right? Because lesbianism makes it sound like it's a...
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (08:52.17)
talking about literally, Becky, I was walking to a party the other day and ran into a couple of my queer non binary feminist friends because that's what we do in our gayborhood. You're always running into friends. And I was talking about this article on this podcast and I kept saying lesbianism and transgenderism. I'm like, God, these phrases made me want to throw up in my mouth. But anyways, continue.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:09.55)
Thank you.
does call that out and I appreciate it because I don't that word see look this is the ways this is the ways though that this stuff is so ingrained right that I know better and still the language will show up but if people in this group who are trying to sort of control the narrative not to say that this is anyway only among among lesbians but there it does seem to be a surprising number given you would think
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (09:16.566)
Ugh!
Becky Mollenkamp (09:35.574)
marginalization and understanding of oppression that that would not necessarily be the case. Like I get it when white straight women show up like Joanne Rowling. I have a harder time understanding as much and I shouldn't, but I do. It is somebody who has multiple marginalizations and showing up and sort of trying to push more marginalizations onto folks. So I wonder what your thoughts are about that and reading this too.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (09:41.482)
Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (09:55.764)
Yeah.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (09:59.252)
Yeah, I'm going to tell you, going to share right now my experience around gender and it's not going to put me in a pretty light. that is that when I first, so first of all, I would have, yeah, I'm a feminist. Yeah, feminism. Yeah. Woo. Until I came out and hung around with queer, gender nonconforming, you know, these types of communities and whoa, was I a white woman feminist?
Right? But this topic of gender, I was one of those people who was like, okay, but I understand trans women are trans women, but are trans women women? And again, friends, this is not the right line of thinking, but it was my process. I very much, and I was dating a woman at the time and she would say, well, what is a woman?
Becky Mollenkamp (10:50.604)
Well, thank you for sharing it.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (10:57.374)
you know, that question we get. you know, I would be like, well, you know, all the same answers. You have an ovaries, you can have a baby, da da. And really what was happening, because I really, wasn't saying, I wasn't denying transgender women. I was denying that they were women because, that makes me sick to say this out loud. me, friend, stick with me. Because I viewed woman-dom.
through the lens of suffering. And to me, transgender women did not suffer in the same way that women do. Sorry, women do. And also, I am non-binary and I didn't know that that was a thing back then. But I felt my whole life, I was performing woman. And I felt like I had to fight tooth and
and nail against myself to be a woman. And there was a resentment that they didn't have to go through the things that we did and they didn't have to fight the way that I did. Right? And so again, I say, obviously that's changed now. One of the interesting things about having an autistic brain is that I do have very rigid thinking and I see things in black and white and there's a...
Becky Mollenkamp (12:09.059)
Yeah.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (12:22.262)
Set of rules that I follow when if things are outside those rules it takes me a little while to kind of process that But here's the thing that I never let go of Trans women or women I don't understand it, but I can certainly say it and support it and believe it so even though I was in that space back then I knew enough to know I'm missing something and at the baseline I will support and advocate and fight and so
As I worked through the, my gosh, what is non-binary? What does that mean? And then I did this wonderful book called, You and Your Gender. my God, You and Your Gender. my God, I'm forgetting the title of this pivotal book right now. Anyways, we'll get it, we'll put it in the show notes. But I did this book, it was full of exercises. And there was this exercise that I had to do and I went through, and it brought me back to a memory from when I was three years old.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:05.966)
Don't worry, we'll find it.
You and your gender identity?
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (13:18.26)
And my mom explaining to me that I'm a girl because I have a vagina, my baby brother is a boy because he has a penis. And at three years old, Becky, was like, that doesn't fit for me. I didn't have the language, but I knew. And I spent the next 37 years trying to be a woman and perform femininity. I remember going to this, like literally, you don't understand. I would go to workshops and read books and go to, and I went to this one thing and it was all about tapping into your feminine power.
And we had to do this exercise where we had to picture a bowl in our womb space and tip the bowl and move that. And it was the first time at like 35 years old that it occurred to me that I have a womb. Like I never made that connection before. So when I say I had to fight tooth and nail to be a woman, it's not to be a woman. It's because I didn't fit being a woman. And I didn't understand that.
And so once I finally understood it and had the verbiage and had the history and had the biology and had the psychology I had all of this stuff and I was like, my God, I am non-binary. And it's like all of that. Then what was left was me having to unpack why I view womanhood as a struggle and suffering. Do you know what I mean? Because I'm like, cause that was my experience of womanhood and suffering.
That was a lot of talking, but I want to say that kind of gives you some insight into that journey. And it's also why I can have compassion for people because, and I want to talk most of the day, I've got some notes around this idea of neuroqueerness because I understand so many people are neuroqueer and don't understand that and don't know what that means. They don't have the language and we're all fighting to conform. Anyways, I'm going stop there. A lot of talking thoughts.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:59.522)
Well, I can't, I'm very, interested in hearing that. But first I want to say thank you for your vulnerability because I know it can be really scary to come on a podcast where you know the people listening, probably, I hope, are people who either already are very much anti-TERF and love and support our trans siblings or are our trans siblings or are very much on that journey, right? So that can be scary. And secondly, I want to
Validate and also say I feel you because your story sounds so familiar to mine. For sure. So I use she they pronouns but honestly the reason is mostly because I feel agender which actually feels different to me that a bit the non-gender and that I see folks who are non-gender and they've it often feels like a very decide like it almost feels like it's its own gender category in a way where I feel like all gender labels to me just feel
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (15:31.882)
Really?
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (15:49.876)
Yeah, it is. know, it literally is.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:55.718)
ridiculous and just not for me. I don't mean for like I think for everyone, it needs to what actually feels right. But when I look at any of them, I put any of them on myself, I feel like none of these really make sense to me. I do identify as she because I know I'm perceived that way. And I'm not anxious to change that perception, necessarily. But also I'm done with what you were talking about, which was performing that perception. And that has where I spent a lot of my life, a feeling I needed and just that struggle of like, I'm not doing it well enough.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (15:56.404)
Ridiculous.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:25.386)
and I'll never do it well enough and I try and I try. And then I had this very brief period in my mid thirties where I finally performed it really well. Like I was getting all of the male gaze and all the male appreciation, all the things you're supposed to do if you're performing femininity right. And it felt exactly like that. It felt awful. It did not do what I thought it would do because I lived my life in that same way of the struggle of like, if I can just perform this right, then I'm finally going to feel good about myself. And then when I finally did, I realized
This doesn't make me feel good about myself. And I thought this was the answer. So then that leaves me in that same place of like, so then what the fuck does that mean for me? Right. And it took me a long time of actually the first my journey started with deconstructing a lot around race and then eventually moving towards more around sexuality, which led me to finally be able to say publicly that I am bisexual, although I actually identify more as pansexual. But at the time, I didn't really understand that language either. Right. So the way we change and evolve and grow in our understanding.
And then it started getting into gender, right? Because once you've deconstructed a lot of these other things, you inevitably get to that one. And I had the same experience of at the beginning of starting to be, I don't want to say confronted, because that sounds as if it was a chat like bad, but being more made just more aware of the trans experience of having a similar thing of like, I'm right there with you, you're a woman, you're you if you feel like you're a woman, you're a woman. And our experiences are different. And I feel like I was still participating a little bit in the oppression.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (17:38.923)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:51.854)
right? This idea of like, but you'll never know what I went through. And so it can't be the same. It took me a long time of all that unpacking to come to the place of like, no, we didn't, you didn't, right? That is just like factual. had very, unless you were, you know, unless you were able to come to your gender identity much earlier in life. And I think that's happening more where it's a very different experience where people are, you know, there are trans children who are socialized as, as the gender of their choice that are the gender of their
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (18:11.209)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:18.03)
what they know to be true for themselves, right? Their actual gender at a much earlier age. And they do experience what it's like to be as a trans girl, to be a girl, right? But my experience wasn't understanding that. And so I had this feeling of like, well, you can never know. And then I finally got to a place of like, but what if, and I actually believe this to be true, what if your oppression wasn't the same, but it was as bad or worse than mine, right? Because you were being forced to live in a way that wasn't true to yourself for so long. And the pain of that.
And then if I bring it to exactly where you're at, which was like, and then the way that I was performing and masking and trying and never measuring up and feeling like shit about myself, whatever experience was the same. It wasn't the same, but it was the same, right? Like, and it totally changed me. And this is all stuff in the last five, eight years for me. Like it's not that long. And so that is the part where I do try to extend more.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (19:07.914)
Yep. Yep.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:13.87)
I don't know what the right word is because I don't want to say empathy or compassion for Adrienne Rich and her ilk, but an understanding that they just maybe they weren't. Well, in her case, she never got there. Joanne hasn't. But there's this little piece of me that holds. I don't support her. I'm not going to give her money. I'm going to fight like hell against what she's showing, how she's showing up now. But there's that little piece of me that hopes that like maybe someday there's still that chance that she may come to that same kind of understanding. Right. And that maybe there is that same rigidity because there's just a little bit of like wanting to hold on to.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (19:14.89)
race.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:43.736)
when your identity is so wrapped up in your unique oppression of like holding onto it as, I don't want to say the most important, but just like really, it meant so much to you, right? And for someone to come along and try to like bond over that, can see where there's that challenge. Okay, that was my, but I feel you.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (19:52.575)
Yeah.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (19:59.252)
No, I love that and like, yeah, like you're not kidding. That is very much mirrored. I'm hearing you on that. And you know what else was really popping out to me was you were talking was also our, what's the word? my gosh, my brain today, Becky. It's cause you know why it was tax weekend. My brain is in the numbers.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:16.686)
That's funny.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:20.312)
I'm in the throes of paramedopause today, so like, I can't believe I'm here, but I'm here and I'm doing it.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (20:24.246)
Honestly, but I was going to say it's also our insert word here to power. can't think of the word, but our proximity, there we go, our proximity to power because the closer we are to the norm, right? The closer we are to power and power as a typically oppressed person is safety. It is access. It is, you know,
Becky Mollenkamp (20:52.877)
Yes.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (20:53.334)
I want to say it's community. I don't think it's the right community, but it's community. And so I'm really hearing that come through when you're saying that as well. We can't deny the proximity to power. so, you know, and I will refer to JK Rowling because that's the name that she wants to use. that's that's that's living, living, walking the walk, right? So, no, you don't, you don't have to. There's no, but that's just, you know, for me, that's what rings true.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:12.905)
there you go. Don't don't call me out because you're right, but it's so I don't know you're right.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (21:23.592)
I'm gonna swear again, I don't fucking care if she comes around. And now I say that to say, obviously I don't want the continued harm, but I used to be so controlling, you know, and I mean, used to be, let's be honest. But.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:42.392)
I am. I'm working on it. You might be a step or two ahead of me on that.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (21:46.782)
you know, like, like, you got to this and you got to that. And and, dude, I don't care because because I'm going to live my life loud and and out and I'm going to share what I want to share. And the people that that resonates for, if that opens up a little questioning in yourself, let's see where that goes. Because it's not about changing.
external factors or okay, I'm not talking about systemic change friends, systemic change needs to happen. I'm talking about the journey of the individual, okay? Your journey is not gonna happen externally, it's gonna happen internally. And so if I can open you up to just question anything related to the ideas of your identities that you've been clinging to and say, what if that actually isn't me?
It's just what I was forced to be. If I can just do that, like you said, it just completely opens everything up. And I think that if we were given enough time and opportunity, I think we would see that most of us are neuroqueer in some way. We don't conform and we've all been sold a lie and a mirage.
that we are trying to fit into to survive. And that's not actually who we are to our core.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:13.398)
Well, and that's where I think that's a great place to go into the reading for this, because the entire the piece of I think the heart at the heart of it is this idea of compulsory heterosexuality, right, that we are sold this bill of goods, this belief system.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (23:15.69)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:27.822)
that you mentioned the norm earlier, right? This idea that there is a norm and that the norm when it comes to sexual identity and I think that extends to probably things like gender as well is heterosexuality, right? This heterosexuality I think is sort of what we have been told is the norm. And this is really challenging. Is that true? Does it have to be true? Why do we believe it's true? And I gotta tell you, I know you've been grappling with this for a while, so this is exciting to hear your perspective, because for me,
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (23:29.674)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:57.014)
frankly, and I hate to admit these things because I like to always my my like need is to feel the smartest in the room, which is ridiculous. But I like to I like to just put my traumas right out there. But it's it's hard for me to honestly, I had some like, kind of moments of like, like going, Okay, I've never really questioned that. I've always been love is love. Like, you know, we coming to my own journey of like being feeling finally feeling comfortable enough to be out.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (24:11.894)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:26.338)
And I think I still have always sort of had this feeling of it is a biological imperative that to, you know, continue with the species, obviously, and even the stories that were told about the way the parts fit together, right, that we're meant to be in heterosexual relationships, and the other things are like deviations from that. And I think that this really is like part of my own coming out journey and my own because I my own coming out journey was me realize how much
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (24:52.501)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:55.978)
internalized homophobia I have. And I didn't grow up in an environment where I would have even thought that I did, other than I grew up in America, so obviously. But like I grew up in a non-religious home with parents who are, you my mom's super liberal, claims to be feminist, you know, all of that. And I didn't think I grew up though. And the more and more I unpack these things, the more I'm like, fuck, that stuff is in there. And no wonder it took me so long to feel comfortable just even claiming myself as part of this queer family. So that's where I'm at with
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (25:03.893)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:24.962)
but you've been doing this a lot longer, it sounds like. You're saying you've been unpacking these things for years, so you have a lot more thought around it. So I'm guessing you didn't have those kind of like moments. you did? Okay, good. Well, that makes me feel better.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (25:32.924)
No, I did!
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (25:37.684)
When I was a teenager, remember friends, rigid thinking. When I was a teenager, I was fully convinced that it wasn't natural to be gay because of the biological imperative of procreation. Obviously that is bunk. That is gross and what hand, that is handmaid's tale bullshit right there. But what.
What we have to ask ourselves is, why do we think that? Who is controlling the flow of information? And that's where we have to look at things like capitalism, the nuclear family. We have to look at colonialism and white supremacy culture. We have to look back at indigenous roots and teachings and communal village, tribal, like,
And the article or the paper talks about this, there's a lot of reasons to talk about this, but just like when we moved into like an agricultural, you know, society and all of a sudden property mattered and then all of a sudden the passing of property mattered. And then when we came into the industrial revolution and capitalism really took hold, how we needed worker bees, you know what I mean? And the serfdom just kind of kept on going, it just transformed.
And we started to see the rise of the nuclear family and the dismantling of community and village. We have to stop and go, well, we know that's not true because science shows us that, I'll say homosexuality, I don't know if that's the right word, is present in all species. Even gender queerness, there's not really gender in animals because gender is.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:31.596)
Which is why it tells you it's such a social construct.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (27:33.334)
It's called gender as a social construct. But we see, we see what we would apply as gender diversity. It's not, it's not. It's like when people say, you know, they say about a woman being a female, I'm like, okay, but a female describes like the sexual anatomy of a species. Like that's not, you know, gender. Anyways, we can get it out if we want. There's a lot. Right? Yeah, okay. But I just want to say,
Becky Mollenkamp (27:55.682)
Sex versus gender are very different things, yeah.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (28:00.666)
We know that's not true. you look at the science and you look at the history, we know that's not true. So why do we believe it? That belief was put into us. Who put that belief into us and who's benefiting from us believing that?
Becky Mollenkamp (28:17.208)
And that's what I think this paper does so well. And why do you think it's worth reading all the other things with all the caveats and the acknowledgement of where it falls short, but the way it does such a great job of weaving that tail and drawing all of those links together to say all of these things are connected. And while I can intellectually, I've known that like the way that it was outlined here just was another new way of like it.
When she talks about rewriting neural pathways, I'm like, yeah, that's what you're helping me do here is like, yeah, it's just one more little thing that's helping me say like, like, duh, I know this, but like, I hadn't put it in this way of saying like, even down to just heterosexuality as a concept of it being like the norm is like, yo, who made me believe this?
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (28:50.07)
Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (29:03.446)
Do you, okay, so I know that was one of the articles I sent you or papers, I guess, and I had pulled it up. Ned Katz talks about that heterosexuality is not natural. And this is a term, I can't remember, I think it's 1883 when the term heterosexuality kind of came on the scene. And it was used to describe the deviance of someone attracted to the opposite sex.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:07.574)
I didn't get to read it yet, I haven't pulled up though.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (29:31.242)
So even then it was a word used to control, right? And to shame and to other, right? But I think in the art, because it's been years since I read it, but he talked about how it was very sort of natural for genders to kind of do their own thing. And they would maybe come together to procreate, but then they would do their own thing. And you know.
Again, we just think the muddling that happens in our natural state that pulls us away from what feels natural, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (30:08.042)
And it's so hard because we're so ingrained in it. I mean, I am queer and I'm in a heterosexual presenting relationship, which has its own host of things that it brings up for me around, like, am I even allowed to claim my queerness and these sorts of things? That was a big barrier for me coming out in the beginning was like, because of my own participation in the oppression Olympics, I think that made me then feel like other people will now judge me in the same way. You know, this is what we do. The way we've judged others, we then judge ourselves so
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (30:14.794)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (30:24.117)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:37.45)
I'm thinking, well, because I know I've judged other people in the past of like, your experience wasn't as bad as mine. Then when I come out, they're going to say, who are you to claim you're part of this umbrella when you're experienced, you you have that safety of that relationship. So that took me forever to get over that hurdle. But being inside of that relationship, it's just so interesting how even though like my brain gets this, like I clearly have attraction to people. I mean, I'm in a monogamous relationship and plan to keep it that way.
but I have had experiences with people who are nothing like him with women. I find women attractive. I understand that my brain is not like this very linear, simple thing, right? And yet, why is it that when you say things like, or when I read this idea of when she's talking about lesbian as an experience and a continuum, which I'm very interested to hear your thoughts on this lesbian as a continuum, because I was really excited about it.
But this idea of like women would do their thing, men would do their thing, they would come together, procreate almost transactionally, right? And then separate and then love. In my mind, I go to like where are love and marriage in that mix? Well, marriage is a construct. Why do I even think that has to be a thing, right? It's only about property and right. But still the fact that my brain is like immediately going there to this is like, it challenges me and the idea of love. And I do think love is important, but why is it that my mind goes, oh, but they're having sex without love. I've had sex without love.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (31:38.324)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:01.73)
I know what it's like and it can be amazing by the way. So like, it's just so strange to me how I can know all of this and yet still feel so challenged still by it of like, but then what happens? do we like? It's hard to fathom that world because it feels so distant from our experience of where we are now.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (32:24.406)
So many things I want to take this conversation, so many ways.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:25.902)
you
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (32:33.042)
Hang on, let me retrace. was something, there was a jumping output I wanted to dive into.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (32:41.974)
We talk about now how it only took two generations before we now have young folks who can't do anything, can't change a tire, can't hang a picture, can't grow their own vegetables, can't can their own pickle, know, two generations. That's all it took to wipe that all out. And it's gone. We don't do it.
So when you think about things like religious conditioning and trauma, which is what you're talking about there.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:13.346)
Yeah, which is so funny to me because I have no religious background and yet we're in a puritanical society.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (33:16.346)
No, but, but, but, well, but also your, your ancestors will, we've got thousands of years of religious trauma, right? And conditioning, right? And so, so, especially once sort of Christian nations started to colonize, right? And, and, you know, you see these nations that were, are not rooted in Christianity, who are now following the Christian religion, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (33:21.87)
for sure. That only goes back one generation, so yeah.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (33:46.162)
which is always so strange to me how you can follow the religion of your oppressor. But there we are.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:52.77)
We do a lot of things. I mean, and this article gets to that too, the way women participate in their own oppression in so many ways. Yeah.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (33:58.406)
Right? We participate in our oppression. But we have to, you know, even your phrase or statement around the oppression Olympics, and I think that's something that a lot of people, we hear that if you're in these spaces. So these things keep us disconnected from ourselves and from each other, right? And to be corny for a second, what is the Eleanor Roosevelt quote that comparison is the thief of joy? I really, really need you all to hear that.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:23.736)
Think of joy, yeah.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (34:27.786)
Comparison is a thief of joy. It is what robs us of our own autonomy and our power. It is what robs us of connection and community. And it's what keeps us stuck in aloneness. Every experience is valid. Every identity is valid. I mean, apparently. And so,
Becky Mollenkamp (34:50.26)
Even cis white men. Right? Even there.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (34:58.326)
I guess there's such a big topic, a big, like what you're saying, Becky, I know that most people feel, especially around the bi experience. It is so complex. Yes, you are welcome in queer spaces. If you are queer, you are queer, you are queer. I am one of those, listen, don't come at me, okay? I'm always open to hearing things different, so friends, leave comments, tell me how I'm seeing it wrong. But I truly do think that most people are queer. I think that is-
Becky Mollenkamp (35:27.47)
I think so too.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (35:28.36)
I think that is a natural, natural state of being. think gender and sexuality, these are constructs that are here to control and to serve a purpose that is not necessarily in our benefits. I think most of us are. Even this idea of neurotypicality versus neurodiversity. I don't think anyone's neurotypical. I think there are some brains that survive better under a capitalist rule.
But I don't think anyone's neurotypical. I don't think that's a thing.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:58.382)
I love that you're saying that because I agree with you so much and I've said that with people and I always feel a little nervous because that is in no way to negate that there are folks for whom it is a far more marginalized situation, right? Because, one person's divergence may not be as limiting and or oppressed as much as someone else. And like we have to honor all of that inside of that. And also that is not to say that like
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (36:11.126)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:23.116)
It's not important for some people to take ADHD meds or whatever the thing is, right? Like, because sometimes people will then use that as a reason to say, well, we're all a little neurodiverse. like, I know you're not, but I'm just saying I have.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (36:30.33)
No, that's not what I'm saying. Thank you for thank you. I'm really glad you said that. Thank you because that's definitely not what I'm saying. So thank you so much for saying that. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:38.636)
No, I totally know you're not saying that. just, you can go on. I just was wanting to honor and like validate and say thank you because I agree with you. I think our basic, this idea of the norm is actually the other. The norm is the other because there are so few people who fit inside of that norm when we can, especially when we get really, really honest with ourselves. I was looking at stats before I got on here about the number of married women and how much that has decreased over a hundred years is.
phenomenal. went from like 78 % to like 30 something percent, like 40%. That's a massive drop in something years. And that is because I think we're finally realizing that if it's if we're when we have choice, when we get to be our full, the full expression of ourself, that that doesn't conform to how we feel.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (37:04.948)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (37:17.45)
We have rights. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:22.656)
motherhood, those numbers have gone way down of parenting, of people having babies, because when given choice, right? And I think that we're seeing the same happening within the queer community and the numbers of people who are identifying in some part of that LGBTQIA go on, go on spectrum, right? It's because as we have this ability to be fully expressing ourselves, we realize that none of us, most of us don't fit into what is considered the majority or the norm. In fact, it is the outsider.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (37:49.994)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:50.008)
And it needs to protect itself. And I feel like that's what we're getting at with how it does it.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (37:56.188)
Absolutely. Women or people. But we'll say women. I'm going to say cis women for right now. And because I want to recognize that that is within the binary of the system. Have never had the rights. Well, in the US, I'm really sorry. I know that's changing. But have not had the rights that we've had and the access to
having a bank account, having a job, having a credit card, having a business, right? Like being able to not be fired for being pregnant. Like this is new. And so you're seeing when we no longer require a cis man to be able to live, we can own property, we can, you know what I mean? Like now this, it's like we have choice, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (38:27.694)
I mean, that's only since the eighties, late seventies, eighties.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (38:52.116)
You know, and even with sexuality, I've been talking to some really cool men lately who are really exploring that and exploring their sexuality and their bisexuality. again, when a lot of times they're not from...
here. And so when they're in a country where they are outside of their own societal pressures and familial pressures, and they're allowed to actually explore who they really are, there is queerness there is, or even just like, I'll say alternative lifestyles, like there's just, you know, and if you even think of like, all the people on the planet, and how far back we go and generation and generation and generation and generation and generation and generation, you know, before before
all the mucking around of religion and capitalism and white supremacy before that, right? There's so many varied expressions of creativity and self and connection and community that's just been lost and gobbled up, gobbled up and eliminated under capitalism, under white supremacy and under religion.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:02.316)
Yeah, I want to because I want to make sure we have time to get to this because I think we both maybe thought it was some juicy part of this, which is the whole idea of this lesbian continuum and then the lesbian experience, I believe, was the other term. Right. And my understanding, tell me where you where you came down on this, because I will be honest, this is a very dense piece that's very academic with a lot of big words. There were a couple I even had to look up, which was like exciting, but also like intimidating. But so.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (40:10.591)
Yes.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (40:14.911)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:28.756)
I believe my understanding is this like the lesbian experience is a person for whom they identify as lesbian in sort of all the ways of like, this is my identity, this is my sexuality. Like I am what I think we typically think of as lesbian, right? A woman who loves women, who has sex with women, right? Like who wants to have her life, you know, many of those big experiences be with women.
My understanding of this like lesbian continuum that she started proposing is more what you were talking about when you were saying way back in history, women kind of were together and men were together. They come together procreate and then like have their own experiences where under that definition, I was like, well, holy fuck, I'm a lesbian then because really other than my husband and my son, the rest of my relationships almost are entirely with women. The relationships I feel the best in are with women other with those two exceptional men, man and boy.
I feel most at home, most at ease, most comfortable, most in love in a lot of ways with women, with my friends. But they're not, it's not like acquaintances. It's like these deep, intimate, beautiful spaces where I can be fully myself and share and give and you know, experience like this and getting, but then people, get to know them. Anyway, that was my understanding. And then I was like, that's really an interesting thing to think about because then it just feels like.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (41:25.014)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:48.606)
know, it's the experience of non-malehood, because I don't want to say just womanhood, because I think that understanding of lesbian to me also would include anyone who's gender non-conforming, certainly consider anyone who identifies as a woman. And I don't know, it felt really beautiful to me, even though there's an afterword where she got some pushback from some editors, one who was lesbian, two who were heterosexual.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (42:05.984)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:14.23)
all women who were sort of pushing back a bit on that and their fears around that definition and how it might be misconstrued, used, whatever. But I was like, that felt really good to me. So I don't know, I'm curious what you think because you have a very different experience because I don't identify as a lesbian. And so I would not want to own that other than I love the way it felt to like have a place honoring those relationships in a way that felt.
more than just saying, yeah, it's friendships. Because it feels different.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (42:49.142)
What you are saying right now is what you were describing right now is what happens when we stop classifying people.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:58.018)
There. Yeah. That's probably what it is.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (43:01.608)
And I understand the power of a classification or a label or an identity. It's like, I saw this on Instagram. I don't know who came up with it. If you do let me know where it said, why labels are strong? Because if you are a zebra who has spent your whole life thinking you're a horse.
and not fitting in with horses, when you understand that you're a zebra, it makes sense and you can find your other zebra friends, right? So, you know, when it comes to accessing certain social programs, being a part of certain communities, understanding who you are at a deeper level, I think identities, labels, these are important, but also imagine a world without them. And that's what you're describing, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (43:52.813)
Yeah.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (43:54.802)
As a lesbian, and I usually say queer because I find it more encompassing and it for me aligns with my queer community, my queer siblings, but as a lesbian, when people reduce my identity to who I have sex with, I find it incredibly dehumanizing and insulting.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:18.027)
Interesting. Yeah.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (44:20.19)
And so, you know, people will say things like, well, I support the gays. I don't care who you sleep with. That is not what being gay is. Being queer is not about sex. Okay? That would be no different than me reducing, you know, a straight person to, you know.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:38.306)
But don't you think straight people do that to themselves?
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (44:41.206)
I don't want to touch that one yet, because I think we'll run out of time. We should do a part two. Because compulsory heterosexuality, jeepers, you know what I'm trying to say, cuts both ways. But let's just take sex off the table, right? And this is the Lesbian Continuum. Let's take sex off the table. It is about our partners, our community, our ideas, our beliefs, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (44:42.828)
Okay. Okay, okay, okay, we don't have to go there.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:51.404)
Yes.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (45:08.63)
I am a lesbian. Men are no longer in my life in that romantic way anymore. But back in the day, I used to think, could I, but could I, am I pansexual? Could I be with a man or bisexual or whatever? And it's like, I would never choose a man to build a life with. And so again, notice I didn't say have sex with. I said, build a life with. Who are you building your life with? And this is where we get into concepts like relationship anarchy.
Right? And polyamory would fall or, you know, that would fall underneath relationship anarchy. But it's this idea that all relationships matter and they're important. Right? And there is no hierarchy. And so if we take away labels, if we think about who do we choose to build a life with, that is so much more than a person I have sex with. Right? That is my entire community. Now.
I am not ready to come out here and say lesbians include anyone that just want to build relationships with women because the heat that I will get from the lesbian community on that. Yeah, like the heat and I understand why.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:09.353)
Yeah. Yeah, no, I think she got that heat too, which is what the afterword felt like it spoke to.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:19.634)
Because we're not at a place where I think if all rights were equal, well, I equal, but if we were in a place where we had a full choice, everyone could truly have full expression of themselves, I think that would be a different conversation than where this is not our reality.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (46:31.894)
Yeah. Or if we had a, because if we weren't in a place where lesbians were being oppressed, then we wouldn't, you know what I mean? And there's, like, let's say queer people.
you know, the 2SLGBTQIA community are being oppressed and having their rights taken from them or denied them. If that wasn't a thing and we didn't need programs and systems to support them, then we wouldn't need the labels. I say them, us. We wouldn't need the labels because we classify as that because me being a certified diversity supplier as a queer business owner.
Right? like, you know what I mean? Like if we didn't need those things, then it wouldn't matter. Who cares? But we need them. So I understand that.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:16.046)
Yeah, I think some of us, it's hard because like you want to live in that world, like so badly that I didn't, I think we idealize that, that we get to that place of like, because I understand the no labels kind of folks, right? I do get it. And there's the part of me that's like fundamentally at my core. Absolutely. I agree. The same way, like I don't think that we, I think it goes back to the neurodiversity thing too, where it's like, I don't know that any of us are.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (47:19.798)
So.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:40.18)
neurotypical or like I think we are just all on a spectrum of everything, right? We're on a spectrum of sexuality, we're on a spectrum of gender, we're on a spectrum of race, we're on a spectrum of all of these things. Exactly, then, right, but then also we live in a real world where clearly, especially now, like we are in a place of oppression is very real, right? And the forces that be are going to try even harder to oppress. And so we do have to be careful to protect people for whom those will be the most
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (47:46.772)
Yeah. Yeah. It's all social constructs. None of it's real.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:09.486)
at the margins, right? So we call it marginalization. People are at the margins of those spectrums because they're the ones who will face the most oppression. And if we care, then we have to still have those labels that help us protect. But I also fully agree. And no, please, please, everyone hear me. I am not claiming myself as a lesbian because I'm not. And I know that. But also, I don't feel like I want to claim myself as heterosexual, even though I've chosen to build my life with a man, with a cishet man.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (48:20.117)
Exactly.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:36.556)
because that doesn't feel true to me either, right? And so that's where it's all really challenging.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (48:40.662)
Here's what I'm going to say. Do I apply for grants for women entrepreneurs? Am I in communities for women entrepreneurs? Yes. Do I consider myself a woman? No. My point is your freedom on who you are and who you build community with and how you express yourself, that is internal. And externally, you play the game. You work the system.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:46.668)
Yeah.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (49:07.892)
Right? So we need certain labels or categories because it gives in some situations access. Right now in the US, it also puts people in danger. So we do have to be careful. But it gives people access. So I will claim womanhood because it gives me access. And I understand that although I am not a woman, I am perceived as a woman and therefore I am oppressed as a woman.
Right? so, so again, it's there's no, it's both and there is no there there is simply you choose your level of freedom internally, you pick the questions you want to ask to help you unpack the identity that was thrust on you versus the identity of who you really are. You choose who you build community with. You choose how you label yourself.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:34.328)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:40.514)
Yeah, no, yeah.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (50:02.228)
Because it's you that's deeply personal, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (50:06.434)
that piece of being perceived by a woman as a woman so oppressed as a woman, I think that's probably why I hold on to my she along with the they in that it does feel a bit like that. I still as much as it doesn't feel like me, there is a part of me that it feels like me, right? Because it's how I am perceived and
It speaks to a large part of my experience. And then the they piece speaks to another large part of more of my internal experience of what it's like to be perceived in a way that doesn't necessarily feel fully me. And so that's sort of where I land on it. But again, I think it's where everybody has to land, right? What feels right for them. There's one more piece that I really wanted to speak to only because I'm mom of a young boy. And because this talks a lot about men, boys, adolescents.
the sexual priming in a way that we do with young men and how that leads to so many of these things because the inherent lack of safety that women often have because we live in this world where boys are treated that way. And I just came off of watching literally last night finishing Adolescents on Netflix. Did you watch it? It's fucking heavy. It's fucking intense. And I can tell you because my husband and I both watched it together. And as parents of a boy who's about to be nine, it was really, really fucking hard to watch.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (51:03.658)
Yeah, I did.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:13.816)
but I also really recommend it because it really speaks to this like incel to like extremist pipeline that is very real right now where, you know, the andro-tates of the world are getting their claws into young boys and perpetuating exactly what this compulsory heterosexuality thing and that she speaks to exactly where men begin to believe, boys become men who believe that they have a right to women's bodies. And that hasn't gotten
better, it's getting in a way it's worse. think it got better. And now I feel like what we're seeing a lot of what's happening right now in so many places is this like backlash to progress of like, whoa, the systems, the powers of recognizing we're losing power, and we want to maintain power. And so there's this like, how do we start to create more people will help us perpetuate the power because they're watching young girls.
very much reject a lot of this. Again, they're not getting married, they're not having children, or they're delaying those decisions much longer. They're questioning their sexuality at a young age and choosing different gender and sexuality expressions and feeling very free about that. And they're voting in a way that makes it clear they're not okay with this. And so I just, thought that piece was really interesting and left me, again, what I do, I feel like spend a lot of my brain space on is how do I just raise a better Cishet white boy?
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (52:26.144)
Thank
Becky Mollenkamp (52:35.084)
because so far he seems to be Cishet. And it's scary. It's really scary because all of this feels like, how do I help honor that he seems to? I know he's only nine, but he seems very clear so far. And by nine, I think a lot of us kind of had a feeling of where we land on our gender and sexuality, although that can evolve. But right now he seems to be very much Cishet. And I want to help him. I want to be able to help honor that heterosexuality without contributing to the compulsory.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (53:03.712)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:04.216)
compulsory part of it. So not that you have answers, because I know, like, this is my own journey. But I just wanted to share that was something that disgust me thinking about. Okay, I love thoughts. I don't think you're a parenting expert by you know, I don't want to you on the spot. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (53:09.768)
I do have thoughts. I do have thoughts. One of the things, not as a parent necessarily, but as a member of society. So one of the great things with adolescence is it showed the complexity of the in-cell pipeline and how it's not just Andrew Tate, but it was the lack of involvement from his parents and the lack of a positive male role model from his father.
And the way that their family was disconnected and he was able to be in his room at all hours of the day by himself and there was no influence. And I think.
When we think about how do we raise young boys, well, we raise them, right? There are a lot of boys and men, like again, boys and men who listen to the ilks of Andrew Tate and whatever, his camaraderie, and they just look at that and go, what absolute hogwash.
Like it's, it's a lot of men and young boys see right through that. And so I think it does start very early with age appropriate conversations around consent and around not dehumanizing women or other or any anyone who's not them. Right. There's so many great content creators that talk about this, know, authors that talk about this. How do we raise our boys to
Becky Mollenkamp (54:19.49)
Yeah.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (54:44.104)
see women as equal, as human, right? And so I don't think it's a lost cause. think that it's not because there's always been people like that. I know on social media, it seems louder, but there have always been people like Andrew Tate and that.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:46.294)
as human. Right?
God, I hope not. I hope not.
Becky Mollenkamp (55:02.282)
sure. I think the only scary thing is the accessibility piece now.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (55:06.43)
And that's where we need to, we are in a complex, complicated space in raising children right now with social media and cell phones and access to technology. And so there is no rule book, but when has there ever been a rule book, you know, but, but I think just like really tuning into the people who are talking about this and, and supporting parents in, in supporting their children, especially around technology and understanding that
Becky Mollenkamp (55:32.131)
Yeah.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (55:35.986)
you know, kids are people and they're autonomous and they're gonna also make their choices and figure it out. I I think that was the biggest thing, one of the biggest things with adolescence as well is he is a person and he lived his life and he made a choice and he did a thing and he'll pay the consequences. And that's really hard, but again, we can't control, but how do we guide? And I think that one of the biggest elements of that show is there was no guidance for him. He had no one guiding him out of that.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:02.51)
Yeah, because his father was definitely showing up and very stereotypical, even though, I I love, and I don't want to give too much away, but I do love that they show at the end, the father crying. Like there is, you can tell that he's not an Andrew Tate, but I think that's also what's so frightening about it is he's showing up. I know, believe me, believe you me, I did. But he's, that's what's so scary is it's like even a man, because my husband is, I wouldn't be with a...
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (56:17.814)
Sorry, I'm getting emotional.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:29.874)
disgusting pig like that's just not you know, but he also still performs masculinity in some ways. He's he's debunked so much of that for himself. I really do believe but like, you know, there is still some of that there in the same way I still am grappling with a lot of these things for myself and probably will be till I die. And it's just scary to think about. But let me give you a happy story, which is I wear this I wear my you know, rainbow necklace every day. And whenever it is like falls underneath my sweater or something, my son is the one who will pull it out.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (56:35.764)
Yep. Yep.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (56:58.132)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:58.156)
And he'll say, mom, you got to make sure people can see that. Like, he's really proud. Like, he'll always tell me when he sees a flag, he'll be like, mom, that's your flag. Like, he knows and he's proud for me. And I do feel like that's a great sign. So like, we'll see. It's just very scary. But this speaks to a lot of that. So for parents, like, I think we have to wrap up, which I know we could talk about this stuff forever because it's just so good. Like you said, it's really juicy. I want to know, do you recommend this for people or for whom would you recommend that they read this?
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (57:13.276)
It is. It is.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (57:29.758)
Everyone? It's because, again, problematic, yes. But will it get your mind thinking in a new way? I think so.
Becky Mollenkamp (57:30.84)
So you do, okay, good. I'm curious.
Becky Mollenkamp (57:36.163)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (57:42.722)
I think so too. And I think anyone especially who has more privileged identities, I think the more privileged identities you hold, the more it would be important to read because it's going to have you questioning more things about your experience. Because I think the big thing is the more, for me, less than the marginalized parts of my identities, although those were also, there were pieces of that that it spoke to and made me think about, it was more these privileged parts and me thinking about like,
Where the fuck did I, like, why did this take root and where did I believe this was like a thing and all of that? And so I think anything that helps do that is really, really important. Even with the giant asterisks of who's being left out of this conversation and who she, you know, the ways that she has caused, I'm sure, real harm. So I want to make that's like a giant asterisk, not a little one, like we, you know. But with that acknowledged, I do think for people, especially with privileged identities, it will get you questioning and anything that does is just so valuable.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (58:39.7)
Yeah. Well, and think it's also, I think it's important to read what a piece of literature looks like when there is the trans exclusionary radical feminism element. I think it is important to see what that looks like playing out because it allows us to go, have I said those things? Have I thought those things? So again, it's like, it's like, we don't want, we don't need to erase that stuff. I think it's important that we see it in play.
because it allows us to tap into where we might be doing it or seeing it differently.
Becky Mollenkamp (59:13.262)
It's a great point, Lindsay, because it's the same way that when we talk about, you know, what they're trying to do now, like, we don't want to change history where we start to get rid of in the same way that we don't want to get rid of history that speaks to the bad parts of what's happened, because we learn from that. Like, this is a part of that. Like, I think parts of it can still be valid. And I think
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (59:26.731)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (59:33.998)
even acknowledging the parts that are bad about it is part of how we like grow. So thank you for acknowledging that. And I also wanted to say I think the book you referenced earlier maybe was you and your gender identity. I dare a hop in the box. Okay, good. So that's the book. I'll put that in the show notes. I'm also going to link to this post from our from the article from Jonathan Ned Katz that you mentioned that was called what something like the invention of heterosexuality. Yeah.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (59:43.306)
Thank you, yes.
Amazing.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (59:51.062)
Yeah.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (59:55.164)
Ventura, yeah. I also didn't get to it today, but I also included a great one on gossiping.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:00:00.908)
which now could be its own episode because I love talking about that topic so much and the way that we have like so many things about women's history that have been made to be trivial, meaningless, whatever, and very much as part of our marginalization and effort to keep us down. So I love that you brought that up. I'll link that too if anyone's interested about gossip because, and I have lots to say about that. So maybe we'll, or maybe for season two, we'll read that one and talk about it. Okay, this was so great. Thank you, Lindsay, so much. am...
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (01:00:24.776)
I would love that.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:00:29.454)
I just head over heels with these conversations. I'm just so excited because like this is the stuff that really lights me up is getting to have these kinds of conversations. So thank you for doing it. And thanks for I know you put a lot of time and energy into yours because first of all, yours was a 40 almost 40 page.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (01:00:44.278)
When I started reading it, I was like, oh, I'm gonna need more time with this.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:00:48.832)
This is why, well, and truth be told, the reason we delayed the first time was because we both decided to read a day of and then we were both like, shit, no, this is gonna take a little more time. So if you are gonna read it, know that. So you put a lot of time into it. Yours was longer than a lot of them and I know you did a lot of research. So thank you very much. I appreciate you.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (01:01:03.146)
Well, and thank you for having me. I am truly honored and I have loved this conversation. like I said, there's maybe things that I'm getting wrong because I'm also still learning and I'm here for all of these conversations and everyone's perspectives. I love talking about this. Let's keep talking about it. I think it's important as a society and I'm here for it.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:01:21.848)
And thanks for your vulnerability, because you shared a lot that was vulnerable and I know scary, so thank you.
Lindsay Johnson (they/them) (01:01:26.358)
Thanks.