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A Lot of Words is a conversational deep-dive podcast hosted by Pastor Brett Schoeneck and Pastor Matt Smith, created for listeners who want biblical clarity applied to real-life questions. Each episode pulls apart the questions people actually ask—not the ones theologians wish people were asking.
From tough topics like anxiety, AI, politics, prayer, sexuality, and suffering to practical questions about how to read the Bible, how to think Christianly in a digital world, and how to follow Jesus in a noisy culture, Brett and Matt aim to give listeners honest, pastoral, and intellectually serious answers.
The show blends theology, humor, cultural analysis, and pastoral insight—inviting you into a conversation that is purposeful, biblical, and surprisingly entertaining. If you’ve ever wanted a podcast where you can actually get your questions answered, welcome to A Lot of Words.
Do Christians have to obey the
government no matter what, obey
the government no matter what comes
from the idea that we're supposed
to obey our government authorities.
Can a believer vote?
Democratic is war
justified in Catholicism.
So how do we avoid conspiracy while
staying discerning about government?
Your conscience, if a law
is passed, that's immoral.
You have to disobey that law.
Should Christians support
the death penalty?
Yes, 100%.
Just regarding globalism, is
this a threat for Christians?
Is it a tool globalism, or should,
should we be neutral in it?
The word globalism is interesting.
Welcome back to the a
lot of words podcast.
I'm Brett Shanik, joined with me
as always in all black, working
the Johnny Cash with brown shoes.
Pastor Matt, senior pastor of Barba
Road Church here in beautiful,
sunny southern California.
Matt, how are you doing?
Doing well.
Great.
Uh, I'm gonna, that was a stuttery.
I was thinking about the all
black and Johnny Cash shoes thing.
Yeah.
Yep.
You're like a black and tan.
Okay, I'll take it.
I think that's like a, it's
like a, that's like a beer.
Well, we wore the last, the same
boots last week, and so I had, I have
these boots in a different color.
Yours are fuzzy.
They're, they're swayed.
You have three, I call it fuzzy.
They're swayed.
But my point is they, uh, let
the record show, show this color.
I like this color, but if you
wear them nor like with jeans.
Yeah.
It looks like I'm wearing
construction boots.
Kinda, yep.
Nothing wrong with construction boots.
Just not, Matt can just give us
a li give us, give us a listers a
list of things you've constructed in
your 47 years of life constructed.
Um, I'm really good at
changing the ribbons on bibles.
I can do that pretty well.
Yeah, that's great.
Um, I could build stuff like I
had to build No, no, seriously.
My, um, in-laws decided to get my youngest
a play kitchen for Christmas uhhuh.
And so then Becky kind of helped
pick it out and she was asking
me about it and I was like, just
get one of the plastic ones.
Yeah.
I was like, no, no, we need to get
like this sophisticated play kitchen
and every single one of our kids.
Passes a certain age where they
want a play kitchen and then we
have to get rid of it and then we
end up having to get another one.
'cause we can't store these.
Yeah.
So we end up getting this play
kitchen and when it comes in a box,
it was Christmas season, so we had
the Christmas service and everything
and the box was like so small.
Mm-hmm.
And the play kitchen was big.
It was like a bunch of toothpicks
essentially you had to put together.
It was so many parts.
They're like, it takes two
people and it'll take 10 hours.
It was one of those types of things.
And I put that thing together
before the Christmas service
working frantically sweating.
You had to get micro screwdrivers.
That was pretty impressive.
That's impressive.
And uh, Lucille doesn't
play on it right now.
Is there a difference between
assembled and constructed?
I had to put a lot of, we used to
have Ikea furniture, a lot of it.
And uh, you know, that's the worst.
Oh, my daughter's had these
beds when we had the Yeah.
That we put together from ikea.
Never.
Uh, this is all like assembly though.
I mean, like if you had to, like are you,
you're telling me that sawdust and glue is
the same thing as like building something?
Um, you're like, you're
like, I put IKEA pegs.
Well, what do you mean constru
with that guy is, it's not
like, that's what I'm saying.
What's, what's, what is the
construction where it's not like
they invent the tree or something?
This show about words.
They're just assembling a house
That's labor construction.
I mean unless what, what is
construction laying concrete?
I haven't done that.
If you had to frame insulate and
drywall a wall, could you do it 100%?
I could do it with YouTube.
Yeah.
I would have to buy every tool.
Yeah.
I'd have to, I'd have to look up all
the videos, but of course I can do it.
It's not, yeah.
You know, I'd, I don't know.
You could also I'd, I'd
probably enjoy it, honestly.
I just, there's catharsis in it.
Yeah.
I just, you know, I'm
not a big builder guy.
I drive a 2008 Honda element, um,
that currently has a few spiders
on the back bumper with we're
to get a 2005 Honda element.
They're amazing.
It's the greatest car for Guinevere for
her first, good for her car stick shift.
Oh, those are great.
So she's gonna love it.
Yeah.
And that's basically, you don't need
a theft deterrent system because no
one knows how to drive stick anywhere.
You're excited.
So, um, but, but I don't construct
things because there's people
that do construct things.
And I think one of the big differences
in generations is that, you know,
when I first, when I was a personal
trainer, one of the things that was
interesting is that time, you know, I
think when you think of constructing
things, you think of the product
price, and then you have labor hours.
But when you b buy, build stuff
for yourself, there has to be a
sense of enjoyment in it because
your time is worth something.
And in a capitalistic society.
My time, uh, to build something, unless
I truly enjoyed it, I'd be saying no
to a lot of other things that I do.
Mm-hmm.
So I'd much rather work, although I
don't have a job that I work, that I
make things that I could make money
at, but, you know, normal things.
Um, long story short, if I
could get away with not having
to do it, I would like that.
I, it's so hard.
I'm so distracted by the
bags under your eyes.
Carrie, my wife this sweet.
It's 'cause I'm not wearing glasses.
Angel.
No, I have them too.
My glasses hid my bags.
I have them too.
Mm. But she, she wanted, these are tiny.
She wanted to give me some under eye
cream because she saw the podcast.
She's embarrassed of my face.
I don't know.
Um.
And now I'm just like, no, I,
I've never, I never who, what
other man looks at a man's face?
I never, well, if someone was,
if someone was like, does,
what's the one from the office?
Where like, did Stanley have a mustache?
And I was like, I have no idea.
I'm like, well, because no guy,
I don't, I don't think I'm like,
what is Chauncey wearing right now?
I have no, I have BD eyes and Chauncey has
to literally change the entire lighting in
here so that you can actually see my eyes.
Um, and so I'll randomly not be
wearing glasses like, oh, we can
need to see if your eyeballs show.
Yeah.
So like, we'll be taking a family
picture and it'll look like I'm just
going like this and you'll zoom in.
And my eyes are like totally
open, but they're fully open.
I just.
They're small eyes when I have
big bags under my eyes and Yeah.
Yeah.
It's, it's how I look.
I mean, if anyone, how about this?
We did the comment thing.
If anyone in the comments wants to come
and do a skincare routine on us Yes.
Uh, feel free.
Yeah.
Facial.
Uh, I don't know if I'd get a facial,
but, you know, I would Do you get,
so sometimes I'll go with Carrie.
I, and I'll be honest, I love a mani-pedi.
I will never get a mani-pedi.
Yeah.
You hate massages too.
Yeah.
They're really, I don't like being touched
except, unless it's, I'm like juujitsu.
I am, but it's like
violent, so it's like nice.
That's, I don't know's.
I just feel like in a massage
you feel, I feel the pressure.
It's not that I don't like
being touched, it's that.
They don't do it hard.
Like if they do a massage, I feel the
pressure that I have to say good job
the whole time, and I just irritates me.
And it's also true, like this, going back
to the manual labor comment, we're, we
were on a podcast, I gotta stop, but um,
so this is a few years ago, we had, uh, at
our house, the, the little back staircase
thing was like messed up and, um, these
folks were coming to fix it and they, no,
there was, they're laying down, um, turf.
Okay.
In the back.
Yeah.
And so they're working on the turf in
the back and I was doing my workouts at
home at the time and I'm, you know, I'm
a pastor so I don't have normal hours.
And so my normal workout used to be
I take these, this giant kettlebell
and I do this workout called Simple
and Sinister in the backyard.
And, you know, you're shirtless and you
just, you just swing this giant kettlebell
you look like an, you know, an alien.
So I need to do the workout.
And so I wake up and I'm like doing,
having my coffee read my Bible and I
go to go in the backyard and there's
all these construction workers
like in the backyard doing stuff.
And I'm like, well, I can't do
my, I don't wanna sit there.
Swing a kettlebell in front of these
guys that are like manly men doing work.
That's very weird.
So I go in my front yard and
decide I'll just do 'em in the
front yard real quick, you know?
Yeah.
And so I go to do the front yard and
I'm in the middle of the first set
and they all come out to have their
lunch and they just sit on the curb.
So they're, they're like, I don't
know, 10 feet away from me now, just
eating lunch, watching me swing.
And I'm like, I feel
like the biggest yuppie.
And then after I'm done, I'm like, I
try to be like, Hey, how's it going?
Can I get you some water?
Do you guys want like an espresso?
And that's all I could think to say.
And I went inside because
that's so embarrassing.
You like look like such an idiot.
So then later in the day, I just
go back inside, just hide my shame,
like I'm a real man with a real job,
but it clearly didn't look like it.
So then I go back inside, take a shower,
the day's going on and I need to go
get ready for, I think it was a Monday.
So he is getting ready
for a Tuesday night.
So I go in my front patio and I have a
cigar and a cup of coffee and a cigar,
and I'm on my iPad doing my reading.
'cause I read most of my books on my iPad.
So I'm reading.
And I'm shirtless because
I didn't think anyone.
So I'm sitting in my front patio
with a cigar and a coffee on
my iPad, and they all come out
again 'cause they were leaving.
And I'm like, they don't know.
I'm reading a book that I'm studying.
I wanna be like, I have a job.
Like I actually do stuff.
But all they saw was some guy
shirtless swinging, a kettlebell
around and then just like, like
scrolling YouTube with a cigar.
And I was just, so, yes, I
don't construct anything.
Yes, no construction.
I, I have, well, I have a lot of comments,
but I'll, I won't, no more words on that.
That's, no more words on that.
Uh, let's get into shout outs.
Uh, this week we're shout out to
Matthew Johnston, our friend from.
Uh, Australia who lives No, no.
He's Australian.
No, I let, let me finish.
You cut it.
See, like, let me do my part.
They don't like it.
If you get that right.
Our friend from Australia who lives in
New Zealand was what I was gonna say.
Yeah, that's true.
That that was a true statement.
Uh, he had me and Matt on his podcast, no.
Lasting City.
Yeah, that's right.
Uh, it's touted as the second
greatest podcast in the world.
Um, it leads to wonder what
is the first Yeah, for real.
Well, I have a, I have a shout out too.
Yeah.
Oh.
And, uh, his church is
River Bend Bible Church.
So if you're ever in
Auckland, New Zealand.
Mm. Go there.
Yeah.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
What's your shoutout?
Um, I met on Sunday, so Easter
Sunday was great and we had a lot
of people here and it was awesome.
And I had a, a nice lady named Gina who
came up to me and she said, I wanna be the
first one to say that I drove five hours.
I was at a booth at a five hour radius.
And, um, so she came out to the
church and she's like, you know,
I listen to the podcast and the
whole thing, so shout out to Gina.
That's pretty awesome.
Wow.
Gina, let's go.
Here's to you.
Yeah.
Cheers.
Yeah, cheers.
Maybe we should send her a mug.
Yeah.
I don't know how to do Gina.
Um, if you're listening to this, write
uh, write an email, go to the lot of words
podcast.com, click on submit a question
and just say, Hey, it's Gina, here's my
address, and we'll get a mug out to you.
That's pretty awesome.
That's fun.
Uh, we can do those things now.
Can anyone just say they're Gina though?
Um, c code code, use a code.
How you talk to Matt?
We will, we will talk afterwards.
You, you know, if someone's
literally pretending to be Gina.
I mean, this is how my mind, I love that.
If someone's pretending to be Gina to
get a mug though, that like, God, they,
they should also, God will see you.
They should also get a mug.
Yeah.
Yeah.
God sees you.
So you know what?
Anyone that says that they're
Gina just signing in, but
God knows if you're sinning.
Yeah, no, that's great.
Uh, do, do you have some sort of.
I don't even know.
I think this is, no, she'll she'll, if
you're the real Gina, please stand up.
Yes, uh, right in.
We'll get you, we'll get you a mug.
That's really cool.
Thanks for coming to Bravos Road Church.
And speaking of Bravos Road Church, let's
get into questions submitted by you, our
subscribers, the best people in the world.
This first one comes from Amy.
You're started with questions, not what?
What's the subject today?
Uh, they need to know that.
Well, they don't, Chauncey will
do that thing that he does in the
beginning that shows all this stuff.
Oh.
And then they're gonna be looking
at the title of the podcast.
Okay.
All right.
Which we'll say it.
I'm You're the boss.
I'm just the guy.
I mean, you're really lane swerving today.
You're, I just like I saw last week.
But you said, I like having
the answers too sometimes, so
I sometimes want to be the host, I guess.
Yeah.
I'll be, uh, I'll answer some questions.
Uh, she writes, and this is Amy.
She goes for a church.
She's great.
I won't say her last name, but
she's probably married to Jake and
they got a young little daughter.
Uh, she says, A family member who
is not a Christian is convinced
even evangelical Christians are
brainwashed to support Israel.
Theo Israel theologically and
thus are morally rep reprehensible
for turning a blind eye to the
perceived current Israeli government.
Evils provoking war in
Iran and genocide and Gaza.
Ample evidence, Israel is intentionally
killing Palestinian children.
How should I handle conversations with
this family member who tries to back
me into a corner and demand that I
denounce the Israeli government or else
I'm morally inconsistent as a Christian?
Would you be, what would be your
approach in this conversation with a
person who's convinced of these things?
If somebody said that, I, I feel
like I'd slap 'em in the face.
I'm so frustrated.
I'm sorry.
It's just That's such a stupid
hitter in the face, Amy.
No, no, no.
Like it is so shrill.
Lemme just say this.
Anybody, um, I'm, I'm, I'm trying
to like, control my responses
so I, I, here's my point.
This podcast is set up where I don't
know the stuff till you say it.
So it's kind of like
asking for a hot take.
The problem with a hot take
is that you can overspeak.
Um, but my initial hot take reaction,
if you don't mind, is that said.
Yeah.
The A person who holds those views.
What there's no, there's no possible
way for you to hold the views that
the person that they're talking
about holds and be a person who's not
miserable in the rest of their life.
There's no way that person's
reasonable to hang out with having
nothing to do with that subject like.
Those are crazy views.
In order to hold views like that, you
have to be so in a bubble of views
that is surrounded by so much misery.
So let's just take 'em apart one by one.
What are they, what are they again?
That, so the, the, that it's morally
reprehensible to turn a blind eye to the
perceived current Israeli government.
Evil.
Okay.
So if that person hasn't gone
to the Middle East and been to
Israel, first and foremost to say
those things, they're ignorant.
Straight up.
So have you been there, have
you seen what Israel looks like?
Have you seen what's going on?
Or are you just getting
it from propaganda?
'cause if we go to Israel, you
can see, um, secondly, the,
there's always perspectives.
People are allowed to
have those perspectives.
But there, when we start to weigh
our words this way, um, you know,
morally culpable, this and that.
So the argument is that Israel is
per, you know, targeting civilians.
They're missing the point.
So often, like Hamas and various groups
use civilians as human shields on purpose.
And so that, that's not
a reasonable place to be.
So when you have folks doing that,
they want their own citizens to die.
They say it because it in increased
their cause at one point, um, in Gaza,
for example, years ago, um, they were
having plumbing problems and you know,
the Israelis gave them a bunch of
pipes to fix their plumbing and they
basically didn't fix their plumbing.
They retrofitted them to make more, you
know, rocket launchers to keep going.
I mean, the people's misery is
not because of Israel, but again,
that's the, the per nothing I just
said is gonna convince the person.
Nothing I said is gonna convince someone.
Um, if someone's holding those views,
they're so extremely weighted into a.
Instead of presuppositions that are so
extreme that I just don't think it's
worth talking to that person at all.
Uh, you, I don't mean not to talk to
them, but I mean about that subject.
So when they want to get you
into a corner and they talk
about moral, um, culpability, I
would just go back to the Bible.
I'd be like, have you read the Bible?
Do you understand the Bible?
Do you know the God of the Bible?
If they say, yes, I do.
I'm like, all right, well then what?
What?
Back off.
You know what I mean?
Um, but there's a, there's a thing we
have to remind ourselves, like Jesus was
talking and he says, he uses this little
phrase that kind of confuses people.
He says, don't throw
your per pearls to swine.
It's not saying that people are pigs.
It's saying that, that a pig is
not interested in your pearls.
And so rational conversation with people
that are irrational is something that you
have to realize isn't like a normal, it's
not, it shouldn't be a normal goal when
you're, when you're with people that are
irrational, those are irrational beliefs.
And if someone says, no, they're
not, they're exceedingly rational.
I don't, I just.
Uh, there's no way to hold those
beliefs and engage serious people on
the other side, I guess is my point.
So if someone says the things
they're saying, you wouldn't
use that kind of rhetoric.
Um, it's just not engaging the other side.
There's just no, no honest
engagement speaks that way.
There's no modesty in it, there's
no, so when someone's speaking that
way, you know that they're immodest,
they're not looking at the other side.
They're fully in an echo chamber,
and they're coming at you not
as like a person to engage.
Um, so don't engage, be
like, I, I don't care.
The labels you put on me,
I don't believe you are.
Right?
You're in an echo chamber
anyways, and you just move on.
I mean, you know, that person is
irrational and so rational dialogue
is not gonna work with them.
So I would just avoid
the subject, honestly.
Is it like, don't, don't respond to a
fool in their folly like this person,
you're not gonna win this person to
your side because there's no partner.
Yeah, but there's two things about that.
When he says, don't respond to a
fool in your folly, the very next.
Verse and proverb says, respond
to a fool in your folly.
Less they be wise in their own sight.
So what's the point?
So first he says, don't respond in
a f with, to a fool in their folly.
And then the next one, he says,
you better respond to a fool.
The, the proverbs put together,
I feel like, what's that?
Proverbs?
One of the proverbs.
Um, the two proverbs together
is really just making a circle
saying you can't win with a fool.
Mm-hmm.
And so, and, and that's kind of the idea.
So in this case, with the family
member, you can love that family member.
You can be kind to that family member,
but remember something in their life
is causing 'em to hold such views.
Pray for them, be kind to them.
Don't engage the subject.
They're not serious about that subject.
That's not like a good faith
way to talk about things.
And so, again, the last thing, this
that, that the Israel's brainwashing,
I, I'm so sick of people saying this.
It's, if that's your view, you're
welcome to hold it, but it is.
It is one step removed from
not believing the moon is real.
I mean, it's just absurd.
It doesn't make sense.
The idea that American hegemony
is based on following Benjamin
Netanyahu is so asinine and
ridiculous, and it's just unserious.
It just, it is completely unserious
and again, not even engaging.
There's no modesty to it.
And so, yeah, it's just unserious.
I wouldn't engage it.
I would just be like, all right, cool.
Enjoy your life.
I'm sure you're nice
to people at Starbucks.
I mean, what?
Like there's just no way.
Sorry.
No, thanks Matt.
Uh, that reminded me of an old Will
Ferrell skit when he plays Harry Kerry,
and he says, if the moon were made of
barbecue spare ribs, would you eat it?
Uh, this is like, uh, the, uh,
I don't feel like I gave a good
answer to Amy, but I hope No,
she got a That's a great answer.
Yeah.
Don't respond to them.
Don't.
I think your moon sucked
another spare ribs thing.
Yeah.
Um, all right, well, let's get
into the topic four this week.
It is God in Government.
Oh, take two.
The first time you had 140 degree
fever, and it turns out it was
hot garbage, so we never aired it.
Oh gosh.
Okay.
Um, so we're gonna get
back into it this week.
So first question, you're gonna unpack
a lot of, I always have like 40 some
questions I ask when you start talking.
Maybe I'm gonna give super short answers.
No, I mean, that'd be great.
You're not, I'm all right.
Let's see what happens.
You're gonna say no out of spite.
Yes.
Okay.
Um, no, these, these are all
just, I'm, I've got ones that sp
just poke the bear way too much.
Um.
In America, do Christians have to
obey the government no matter what?
You know, we have all these
people, there are no kings posters.
Do we have a king?
Is he is?
Is Trump issuing edicts?
Is Gavin Newsom issuing edicts?
Yeah.
Um, so yeah.
Does a Christian have to obey
the government no matter what?
Are they sinning if they do not obey?
Yeah.
Are they sinning if they do not obey?
Well, let's, let's take
this a few steps back.
First of all, see, oh gosh, the
answer is I know what I'm doing.
You're making it a lot of words.
Yeah.
You need to gimme multiple choice.
Um, no, the, the basic issue obey the
government no matter what comes from
the idea that we're supposed to obey
our government authorities trusting
that God's sovereign over them.
You know, think of like, you know, Roman
13, but then also, um, you know, Peter
talking about unjust governments and, um.
You know, this idea that we're gonna,
you know, Paul at another place
talking about submitting to even unjust
governments, the basic idea of this is
that God Ordains government, he ordains
and is sovereign over everything.
And the reference that Peter
gives, for example, is God
was sovereign over the cross.
And so Jesus continued entrusting himself
to a faithful creator while doing good,
knowing that even in the injustice of
the cross, God was still sovereign and
good, even though we couldn't see it.
So that's the basis of
obeying our government.
It's not saying to obey your government
because they're good or they're right
or wise, but because God is sovereign.
But in that, there's other,
there's other sort of hints that
help us to understand a bit.
So for example, the Apostle Paul, um.
You know, we, we tend to make
that a blanket statement thinking,
obey people in authority.
Well, only if their authority's proper.
So for example, when Paul is preaching,
um, the gospel and Rome, and they, he
gets thrown in prison, he's like, is it
wise for you to take a Roman prisoner?
And he asserts his rights as a citizen.
He doesn't just get bullied
by people in authority that
were misusing their authority.
And, uh, you know, and then later when
he's arrested, he appeals to Caesar and he
uses the, you know, so, um, at one point
he says, let the governing authorities,
when they wrongly arrested him, come so he
knew how the civics of everything worked.
He's the one who wrote, you
know, Romans 13 for example.
So he's not saying obey the
government, like everyone in power
that says something, just do it.
That that would be the first thing.
I wanna push back on the idea that there
is a government, that it's good that we
should listen to it and work within it.
On the other end of things, you
know, Paul, um, writing to Philemon
sends back, Onesimus a runaway slave.
So he's not trying to up
overturn institutions.
Um, there's a radicalness
to this type of trust.
And so God's sovereignty.
Um, that said, let's kind
of take this a step back.
So when you look at America in
particular, you mentioned the no kings.
We don't have a king.
We're not in a monarchy.
And so if, if there was a king saying
an edict that we'd have to obey this,
assuming it's not sinful, right?
Like well then we're stuck, right?
Based on things like taxes
and, you know, stuff like that.
We don't have a king.
We never had a king.
We're Americans.
And which puts us in a really
unique position because nor we don't
have a king and we don't have sat
traps, prefix and governors that
we say, oh, we have governors.
Yeah, but they don't
have absolute authority.
And the United States government, we, um.
Hold to the Constitution as the,
under the rule of law, not under the
rulers, but under the rule of law.
And so that means that our governing
authorities are under that same law.
And so when someone is sworn into office,
they're sworn to uphold the Constitution.
And our form of government, there's,
has checks and balances and a, a
history of basically resisting, um,
the government overstepping its bounds.
And so when someone, when a government
basically issues an order or something
that's non constitutional or is
outside of the bounds, Americans
have a duty to resist that.
In other words, I would argue that
Romans 13 means as Americans, that you
resist tyrannical governments that go
against the Constitution be that would
be the most proper way to obey Romans 13.
So for example, during COVID, when Gavin
Newsom and stuff was, you know, when
Biden was using OSHA to push through,
uh, vaccine mandates, for example,
or trying to shut down businesses.
You know, the government doesn't, in
America doesn't give us our rights.
The government, the Our Declaration
of Independence recognizes we have
rights having been gifted them by God.
They're inalienable because we're
made in the image of our creator.
And all the next sort of enumerated
things that are limiting things are
limiting the power of government, not
the power of the individual's freedom.
And because people don't know civics very
well, we assume that the government gets
to tell us when we get to do something.
And that's not it at all.
Uh, all of the things that are
limiting the government's power.
So, all that said, um.
We should obey our governments.
If we're in America right now, we
have to recognize that the governing
authority in America is the Constitution.
And we have people who are up swear
to uphold that, and we have a duty
to hold them accountable for that.
And so we get to vote, but
more importantly, we also get
to, um, protest if we want.
So the, the No King's protest
is a great protest in the
sense that they get to do it.
I mean, think about how, how ironic it is.
If we had a king, we wouldn't allow
you to do your stupid protest, except
I guess in England, which apparently
they also did No King's protest.
Did you know that?
Yeah.
That's absurd.
Anyways, they're like no kings.
And he was so feckless.
He's like, yeah, I agree.
But um, yeah.
So I just think that we
ought to obey the government.
The government.
Government's not a bad thing.
We're not proposing anarchy.
And so like a lot of the sort of Marxist
views that people hold to and whatnot,
um, would be against Western civilization
and governments in general, right?
So we support that It is good to have
a government, we wanna work within it.
Um, this isn't our home.
Christ is coming back to
establish his kingdom.
Um, but in the meantime, we we're dual
citizens and so we recognize that we
ought to be the best citizens we can.
And in America, that's actually
a lot harder than you realize.
Um, you know, and then one other thing.
When you look at, for example, some
of the advice in Proverbs and other
things to rulers, because we don't
have kings, we say, okay, that's great.
So we're free, but we also
are somewhat self-governed.
So when you vote for something,
you are taking part in not just
being governed, but in governing.
And so your vote matters.
And so it'd be the equivalent of
you being a ruler in some way.
So if, if there's a law you're voting
for, that would be unjust, forget
it's legality for a second, just
the unjust unjustness of it, right?
Well then you'd all of
a sudden be culpable.
So this goes into some areas
that are maybe more sensitive.
So think about like taxes.
A lot of people would say.
You know, Hey, I want to tax, you
know, that person has a lot of money.
I wanna tax them because it's
being generous and nice and
Jesus would want us to do it.
What you're forgetting is, is that
you're forcibly taking someone else's
money that's not yours, and you, it, the
government doesn't give you a a pass.
You are taking part in it
when you're voting for it.
So when you're voting to tax someone
else more, uh, to pay for something
else, you're not being virtuous.
You're actually now culpable.
And so at a certain point, there's a
morality to this that if, you know,
at one point the, the, the Romans
soldiers asked John the Baptist,
what should we do in repentance?
And he says, don't tax more than you,
don't take more than your owed type thing.
Um, I think people that would
claim Christ, that would think
that this is more of a, a morally
good idea, they might actually find
they're in the wrong side of that.
Uh, and something that
seems a little less.
Than what you think of, but
taxes, you know what I mean?
Like that you're, you're culpable now.
'cause so our system of
government's unique because of that.
So, I dunno, I could say more, but
that's a, I think there's a nuance
that needs to be addressed, and I
think people miss that a little bit.
And here's the other thing, because
of the echo chambers and the p
the, the, the polarizing voices,
people are less and less able to
communicate and learn these things.
Um, even just watching the, the
conflicts that are happening globally
and watching American politics become
so extreme, it's, it's hard for
people to see these nuances, you know?
So, um, it becomes sort
of a zero sum game.
You know this, when you think of
the transfer of power and you think
of how, what makes America uniquely
awesome is that if I trust that the,
the ruler is under the same rule
of law, then yes, it's a bummer.
If my party, let's say, it doesn't win.
But I know that they're still
gonna be under the same law I am.
But when rulers now reinforce and, and,
and enforce laws, you know, unfairly,
not only is that unjust when people
vote for it to be enforced unfairly,
that's also again, unjust, but also
makes it so that every election and
every change of things is a big threat.
So that in to typical society when a
new power takes over, even in the Bible
when Solomon takes power, you know,
when, when King Solomon takes power
under David, um, he had to basically,
he put to death, uh, you know, those
people who had opposed them, you know,
their, their entire kind of line.
I mean, at some, at some point,
this was how power transfers happen.
You have to.
Kill the people that are opposing you,
otherwise your power isn't stable.
Well, in a, what's so amazing about this
Western sort of system of government we
have is the peaceful transfers of power.
And it's been threatened a lot, and
the rhetoric is threatening that a lot.
But the idea that behind all that is
that there's a rule of law, well, that
starts to break down when you have.
Basically like, well, we're
not gonna enforce this law.
We're gonna force on that person,
because then law doesn't feel
like it's neutral anymore.
Not everyone's under it.
So it raises the stakes a lot.
And then everybody's basically just
trying to have power for power's sake.
And, um, that's a really dangerous
place to be as a country.
Um, you know, there's.
There's more I could say, but I'll,
I'll, I'll let you ask more questions.
I basically blew it with
the amount of answers.
Yeah, that was really short.
Thank you.
Um, you welcome.
About five and a half minutes ago.
Oh goodness.
You said a word feckless.
Oh, don't even, I just look it up.
Can, can you define?
Nope.
Just look it up.
Feckless.
Just look it up.
All right.
This is the, A lot of words podcast.
That's a word.
I, it's not, it's not the, A
lot of definitions podcast.
Well, I've never heard it before,
so I was asking, uh, apparently not.
Apparently.
You can just say words.
It's probably a bad word.
Not defile.
That's, that's why I was
like, does he even know?
Uh, it's the, uh, lot of
definitions, podcasts.
That's, that's, that's gonna be our, uh,
paid subscription after dark episode.
You've heard the, a lot of words You
wanna hear the, a lot of definitions.
Uh, feckless.
That's a great word.
Look it up.
You'll like it.
It's a good word.
Uh, alright.
And then I'm sure someone in the comments
will give some def. That's what we'll do.
I'm gonna just say words and say, yeah,
if you know what word feckless means,
and if you're honest, do not chat PT
or Google it if you actually know.
Comment, uh, and also thank you for Chris.
He comment, he commented
on the ones and twos.
It's because there's two records
and so one is the one record and
there's a two record that you scratch.
So thank you for commenting,
Chris, really appreciate that.
Well done.
Uh, second question I had is
you mentioned voting about
three and a half minutes back.
Is it, uh, I give up.
Is it?
I'm having to timestamp my notes.
Oh, dear.
Um, yeah, you got me going.
Well, no, it was good.
It was like the, um, yeah, not voting
for something that you see as immoral or
wrong or, or taxes that steal from people.
Mm. Um, is it a sin not to vote at all?
Well, no, of course.
It's not a sin.
You don't want to, you wanna be careful,
like, again, you do this really well.
You ask the question in a
way that someone might ask.
That's not a category.
It's not a sin of course.
It's not a sin to, to not vote.
But I would say that it's irresponsible.
I mean, there's a sense in which
voting can feel, there's a lot
of, um, voting can feel somehow
like we're in California, right?
Voting feels worthless.
Like they call our elections and
they haven't even counted the votes.
I mean, it's just really hard.
Um, the gover, I mean,
November might be interesting.
I know, but, so I'm a, I'm a big fan.
I think you should vote, I think
voting's inconvenient and hard.
There's a lot of things
I mentioned before.
I, I mentioned the jury duty one.
Remember I said the Yeah.
Austin things like, Hey,
bestie, let's go solve a murder.
Take a time off work.
Voting is the same way.
It's like, Hey, you wanna pick a ruler?
I'm just, I'm after work
and we'll just go pick who.
But I think the idea of our governing
system is that we are governed,
but it's also by the consent
of the gov, the, the governed.
And so there's a sense of
consent in all these things.
If you have strong opinions and
you don't vote, um, well then you
shouldn't have strong opinions.
That's just not a
reasonable position to have.
Yeah.
Uh, if voting ma makes
sense, you ought to do it.
You should take part.
It's a, it's a good thing.
But also if you're a Christian and
you say, well, I believe that we
should be good citizens, that a good
citizen would require you to vote so.
I, I'm, I'm leading up to the point
where like, this is something you ought
to do, but I don't wanna say it's a sin
because when the Bible's vague about
something, you don't wanna be specific
in such a way that that defines it.
So it's not a sin not to vote,
but you should vote and your
vote does actually matter.
Don't let anyone tell you it doesn't.
I think that's part of the propaganda
of the whole thing is they, they
wanna tell you it doesn't matter.
Um, but it really does matter.
And that's, but, but there's like,
it's also so, like, sometimes seeing
how the sausage is made is terrible.
Like watching the types of things
like, so for example, in abortion,
there was a big debate where there's,
people are like abolished abortion,
and they were against, their entire
campaign was against gradualists who
were voting for better and better.
Like, this is immoral.
We should just abolish it.
And I'm like, well,
I'd love to abolish it.
We're not, we have to vote against it.
And, and that also brings
up your conscience.
If a law is passed, that's immoral.
You have to disobey that law, right?
I mean, you have to say,
no, I'm not gonna do that.
However, here's the key.
And when you disobey that law for civic
disobedience or whatever it is to share
the gospel, for example, if someone
says to you, Hey, I'm a school teacher,
and the Bible says, or the, the, the
school board says, I can't share, I
can't talk about Jesus at my workplace.
Well, God would disagree.
The apostles and the the
Bible would disagree.
You should share the
gospel in your workplace.
Well, it's the illegal, I'm like, right.
Share the gospel in your workplace.
Great.
You should do that.
And when you get fined or put
in jail for it, accept it.
Exactly.
I think that's the, see this
the key element of that?
I don't know if you asked about that.
I just brought it up.
No, I think that's what you see in Daniel.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
He, he goes, he say, oh, anyone
that prays, and he goes out and
prays like normal on his roof and
his deck, and everyone can see it.
So yeah.
So I think that's kind
of the, the principle.
And, and I think the other thing you have
to remind yourself is that when we look,
think about persecution in the Bible,
always, it was always a a, a civics.
Uh, mixed with gov. Basically God
and government is always merging
to persecute the church or the
people of the, of the faith.
So, you know, in Daniel it was the
sat tracks, prefects and all the
rest that were coming against them.
And, and, uh, you know, coming against
Jesus, they said, oh, he's against Caesar.
Um, you know, there's another king.
So they're always trying to go against
these other governments because at
the end of the day, outside of outside
of Christ, the tendency for people,
if you don't know Jesus, the tendency
for people is to deify government.
Right.
I mean, sometimes it can be just straight
up they deify government, they say, well,
you should worship, you know, Caesar the,
you know, behold the good news that Caesar
is born is what kinda they're saying.
But sometimes it won't be so overtly you
should gl like worship the government.
But it will come in ways like
in communism they'll say that,
they'll say There is no God.
And so then how do you know who's right?
If everyone just has subjective
opinions, well, there is no objective
truth because there's no God.
So therefore, the, the objective, the
only truth that's gonna matter is the
survival of the strongest and therefore
the government's the strongest.
Therefore, government is God regardless.
I think as a Christian, we can follow
the government and recognize it's not
God, which is creates a really weird
imbalance because right now, for example,
a lot of folks mistake, they'll say,
oh, well how can you, like Donald
Trump, let's say, 'cause I'm, I think
Trump's doing a great job personally.
Um, some people are like,
well, he's so immoral.
He said this.
I'm like, God used Nebuchadnezzar.
He can use Trump.
Like Trump is not the pastor
of the United States, he's the
president of the United States.
Uh, I'm like, we don't vote for
a pastor of the United States.
He's supposed to wield
the sword of government.
And so, you know, is he
the greatest guy ever?
No.
Um, I think he's the right guy
for the kind of weirdness that
has been coming for so long.
I think he's good for this moment.
Um, so yeah.
Kind of staying in that thread, what
would you say to someone, I've heard
this before of, oh, I wrote in the
name Jesus, because I don't wanna
vote for the lesser of two evils.
Yeah.
Is that Its dumb.
Yeah, it's super dumb.
Anyone that, and if you do that
and then go tell people about it,
like you're, like your insecurities
are showing like, gimme a break.
I wrote in Jesus.
Like, you don't understand voting,
you don't understand what's happening.
You're uneducated about
what's actually on the ballot.
And Jesus doesn't like
what you just did either.
Mm-hmm.
He wouldn't be like, it's just stupid.
Sorry.
No.
Yeah.
That's great.
Yeah.
You mentioned, uh, you mentioned
Trump and obviously when this airs
people, people are so divided.
We'll know if he blew up half of Iran
or not, but, um, you called it Iran.
Iran.
I, I, yeah.
Okay.
I think it's Iran.
Iran either, either are acceptable.
I like saying Iran don't
be divisive and Iraq.
Yes.
Because I don't wanna be divisive.
It's like Aron, Ron Aron.
Yeah.
Aron, Aron, Aron, Iran.
We gotta get Sean a microphone.
Um, so yeah, this one, I was
talking to your brother this week
and he asked this question, is
war ever justified for Christians?
Can Christians support
a war, like a any war?
Yeah.
Not, not, don't think specifically.
Yeah.
The one that's going on right now.
Right.
So I think this question.
God, I do this all the time, but I
have to, every question we're asked,
this is, this is something that,
like, how can we do this on the spot?
Right?
How do we come on the camera, on the spot
where I don't know the subject really.
And you ask it and it's because questions
are always smuggling in presuppositions.
And so what happens is, this is my thought
process live and I'm just saying it.
Mm-hmm.
I dunno if this is valuable.
No.
Super valuable.
Um, when you ask a question, I'm basically
recognizing I take the question and
before I start to answer it, I wanna
squeeze it to see like what kinds
of like presuppositions squarer out.
Like that's what the question is.
And so when you said the question
you just said, say it one more time.
Is war ever justified for Christians?
Can Christians support Yes.
America going to war?
So if you said the words,
is war ever justified?
That's an interesting question.
Is war ever justified for Christians?
A category error.
And you're like, what?
I don't this, here's why.
Christian, when we think of Christianity,
we have to remind ourselves that the,
this is, people struggle here, but
when you look at Judaism in the Old
Testament, Judaism is geopolitical,
which means it is not, it is a religion.
True, but it is a religion that
is also geopolitical in the
sense of geography and politics.
It's having to do with
government and life.
So in other words, Israel was a theocracy.
And when Israel was either not ruled
by God directly, then they were ruled
by people that kind of ruled over them.
But there, the idea was that
Israel is meant to be a theocracy.
It was, Judaism in particular
doesn't have a secular state.
And then a religious sort of
institution that they worship.
The whole institution was a religious
state and so people will say, well hey,
modern day Israel isn't the real Israel.
I'm like, yeah, that's true.
It's not the Israel that you're gonna
see, you know, but the Bible for
example, if you just take that view,
I agree with you, but in Zechariah
12, you have an unbelieving Israel
than who then turn one day to believe.
So for there to be the true Israel
that God describes, you have to have
a non-believing Israel in the land.
Anyways, um, what were we talking about?
Is war ever justified?
So geopolitics and Judaism.
Is, is a big deal.
And then when you think of Islam,
it's also geopolitical, right?
Which means that when you think of
the, the khalifas, the, the caliphates,
the thing that, that are here, this
wasn't just a religious state, right?
When Muhammad started spreading
Islam, he spread it through the sword.
And it was about land, it was
about armies, it was about, um,
you know, taxes and government
and rule of law for the society.
Sharia law is a law for society,
not for religious people.
And interestingly, when you look
back during the Crusades Roman
Catholicism, during the medieval
period, after Constantine, up to
like the Reformation, really, um.
Christiandom was largely also
geopolitical in the sense that you
had land that was held, you had
borders, governments and rulers.
And so what happens is if you kind of hold
to a view of replacement, sort of theology
where the church is somehow geopolitical,
thinking about Christianity makes us think
of the geopolitics of things like war.
The Bible doesn't really talk about war.
It's you think to yourself, the
New Testament rather, doesn't
really talk much about war.
You say to yourself,
well that's interesting.
Why?
Where, where do I get
a theology of war from?
Well, if you go to the Old Testament,
that's interesting because God commands,
we're in Deuteronomy, now he commands
his people to go in and at certain,
certain cases to wipe out entire groups.
And if you're curious about how that
comports with the God of the Bible,
come listen to go to brass.com.
I've been preaching through Deuteronomy.
If you go, you go to our app or whatever,
go through the Deuteronomy sermons and
you'll, you're gonna hear us address
these things and deal with them, but.
Suffice it to say God is not
only pro-war in these cases.
There's one scene where God says that
he's let them go into the land slowly
so that the people would learn war.
Um, God is behind it.
He commands it.
He gives them strategy.
Not only that, um, he gives them
strategy that is deceptive in war.
So God's not like, uh, as you shall not
lie, he gives deceptive strategy in war.
So this is the God of the Bible.
When Jesus talks about it, he
talks about coming back and, you
know, revelation and this is war.
This is not, there's armies of heaven.
There's blood and stuff.
The church though, the.
Is not geopolitical.
The church is the body of Christ, the
bride of Christ, the building of Christ.
It is from every tribe, tongue and nation.
It transcends borders.
The church has not promised any land.
The church has not
promised any, um, money.
It's not promised anything.
Here.
We have an imperishable
inheritance waiting.
Christ is coming back to bring a kingdom.
That's us.
In the meantime, we're ambassadors
of another king who's coming.
Uh, you know, we're giving terms of peace.
We're telling people the gospel,
um, but we're representing
a kingdom that's not here.
The reason the Catholic church
didn't do that is they said,
well, we're Israel essentially.
And so the promises of Israel are
fulfilled in us, which was easy for
them to say because you know, the
first 300 years of Christianity, all
the Christians were being persecuted.
And all of a sudden, Constantine and
the Ro, the Christianity has power.
And they thought to ourselves,
maybe this is the kingdom.
So all of a sudden the promises of the
kingdom became promises about Rome.
And so then.
Christian de all of a sudden took on
this idea of like, izing these things.
All that to say, the geopolitics
mixed in with the faith here is where,
where that question becomes so angsty.
Um, because if you said is, is
war ever justified for in Judaism?
Obviously, obviously
you read all about it.
Is war ever justified in Islam?
Sure.
You know, there, there, it's terrible.
Is war justified in
Catholicism in the Crusades?
And here's where it's funny, they'll
say things like, well, the Ottoman
and the Turks, they're coming
in, they have to stop it, right?
But where in the New
Testament does it say this?
You have to reach into the Old
Testament and then you have to
basically say, well, that's really
about us to make that make sense.
So let's talk now about us.
Does the secular government in the
United States of America have the
ability to wage for Absolutely.
Can that secular government do so
with people who are Christians?
Absolutely.
Daniel served under Nebuchadnezzar.
Faithfully under a king
who had all sorts of views.
You can serve and wield the sword.
You can be a soldier that's
being a good citizen.
God's given the authority to
governments to wield the sword.
And so it, you can do
that for your government.
So without even having to get, without
even having to get into the, the issue
of just war theory, just the fact that
you're a soldier in the thing, you
should still comport yourself Well, as
a soldier, you shouldn't like, do things
that are sinful, but that you can do that.
Um, you know, it's, it's helpful to also
say though that the United States is the
greatest nation on God's green earth.
And the, and there's,
it's doing good things.
And, uh, you know, if I was a
soldier right now, I'd be proud
to be fighting for this country.
The, the, the, as the time of this
is airing, we had just done the
rescue and I ran of the, the pilot.
It is one of the most, if you, if
you can't look at that and wanna wave
an American flag afterwards, I don't
understand how you're an American if
you can't see the ingenuity of building.
A runway in enemy territory.
Going through bringing all this stuff to
save a person, one guy, first of all, it
shows the value we have of human life.
There's a lot of stuff in that,
so I think that's amazing.
Now, one last thing, 'cause
I just don't wanna forget it.
Just because our politics,
just because the church isn't.
A theocracy, right?
Doesn't mean that
politics isn't religious.
In other words, our worldview
comes out in our politics.
So when someone tells, for example,
in the transgender debate or the stuff
like this, the debate is about what
defines gender, which is a debate
directly about the definitions of things.
This is something that's
theological, you know, talking
about when it was gay marriage.
Same idea that this is these
institutions that God has defined.
So we can vote our conscience.
Absolutely.
We're not trying to be like,
like dumb libertarians here.
We can vote for things
that we think are moral.
We were supposed to be a moral people.
There's no such thing
as a secular morality.
We end up just becoming pagan.
Um, so politics is where a lot
of our religious debate happens,
but it is not the church.
It is not a theocracy.
It is a institution that is.
Distinct from the church.
And so we need to remember that.
So yeah, you can be a part of war
and you can be a part of warfare.
And some of our, um, great soldiers,
I mean, a lot of our soldiers are
from our church, so I'm proud of 'em.
So what, what is like a a how would you
define separation of church and state?
Because I know you have strong view.
Yeah, I mean, if you go back and
read, I would just urge anyone
that's interested in this, if you
just go back and read the Federalist
papers, like it'd be interesting.
You, you'd learn a lot.
It's not what, for example, even
when you think of, okay, so even when
you think of, you didn't ask this,
but I just, I'm interested in it.
So I'm like doing a I'm, but
when you think of America, people
say, how can America exist?
You're just cowboying this podcast.
Yeah.
I'm like, um, you mentioned more.
Lemme go.
Uh, yeah, thanks all.
I'm asking the questions here.
I'm the captain now.
Uh, uh, no.
So the, the American existing
people will say is, was that bad?
The American Revolution?
That, that's a different question.
Way different question.
You Can you ask that in a second?
Sure.
So what's the question you just asked?
'cause then I don't wanna forget it.
I said, how would you define
separation of church and state?
I know people use that all the time out.
Context.
Context.
Yeah.
All the, all the separation church,
it means is that the church,
the state is not identifying
itself as a certain denomination.
That's, it just means that the state
isn't re saying we're this kind
of Christian or whatever it is.
Not saying that the church, that
the, it is basically making the
case that the state cannot rule over
the church in matters of church.
Like, so that's why there's a separation.
It's, it's important to protect
the freedom of the church.
But remember it is limiting
the power of government.
Yeah.
To wield its authority.
And America was found
as a religious nation.
And so, you know, when.
To be a, to be a free people,
you must be a moral people.
That that's the idea.
Because, you know, even, and the Bible
even gets to this, you know, Romans
six, we're all enslaved to something.
So we're either enslaved to our desire.
So if we, if we wanna have a purely
secular government where we say
freedom, what the America has done,
the American picture of things is very
fascinating because the Bible uses the
word freedom in a way that's different
than how Americans today see it.
And this goes back to the
founding of the country.
And it's fascinating, right?
So when we talk about freedom in the
Bible, freedom is basically the ability to
do what you want according to your nature.
And because we have a fallen
nature, we do fallen things.
We need Jesus.
And so then Paul talks in Romans six
about us being slaves of righteousness.
That means that our desires
now wanna do righteous things.
We're enslaved to these, these
desires, which is a good thing.
Um, freedom in that case.
From our previous desires, freedom
from the things we had is basically
because we are slaves under Christ.
But Americans use the word freedom as
autonomy freed from all constraints,
but it's never defining who it's unto.
And so when we just say freed from all
things, well, this is the freedom that's
spoken about in the garden where Adam
basically and Eve decide they don't want
to eat this fruit because any restriction
upon them is basically not enough.
And so the idea that you'll be
like Gods without being God.
So the autonomy is the idea that
you is basically self deity.
It's the idea that no one rules me but me.
But the Bible makes the case you're
already ruled by your desires, which
essentially means a secular picture
of autonomy is really advocating
for people ruled by their bellies.
It's advocating for overt paganism.
So.
Freedom doesn't mean just autonomy.
I think that's a big, the big case.
But, um, in America it's sometimes defined
that way because America is an interesting
amalgam of like Christian ideas mixed
with sort of enlightenment ideas.
And so it creates an angst truly.
Um, but the separation of Churchian
state is really just defining the
fact that the state cannot say that
this is the religion that we have.
And the, the church though, there,
there's no restriction on the church
saying anything it wants about the state.
Like the church can influence
the state as much as it wants.
The, the, there's nothing
in the, the separation.
And Franklin, um, I'm sorry.
Uh, Thomas Jefferson rather wrote
lots about this, so, uh, it's
not what people think it is.
Again, I'd urge 'em to look it up.
It's more than what we can get into
in the podcast, but it doesn't mean
like the government cannot re restrict
you from speaking about your faith
in any sphere in any place ever.
The, the founders never
envisioned anything like that.
You, you touched on this a bit.
Yeah.
I think Sounds good.
Um, in our last podcast,
but how, how do you avoid.
You know, you, you just mentioned like,
read the Federal Federalist papers.
Go read the Constitution.
I don't think many Americans, are
you asking me about how America No.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm, because
I feel like that's the question.
I'll give you a question, but like,
I don't think a lot of people, you
know, and I never read the Federalist
papers until you told me to.
I never read the Constitution
until you told me to.
Um, yeah.
You should get a framed copy on
your wall of the Constitution.
I think you read it every morning
while you brush your teeth.
You can, you know, honestly, if you,
if you, I'll give you a get, get
a pocket constitution and read it.
I'm not even kidding.
Like if you don't know it,
you, you're like, Romans 13.
Okay.
Get a pocket constitution and read it.
You should know it.
Yeah.
Idiot.
Well, no, I'm just saying if
you don't know it, just have
some more modest opinions.
Yeah.
Like start to learn, you know?
That's all.
Yeah.
That's kinda what I'm getting at.
Yeah.
So how do we avoid conspiracy, uh, while
staying discerning about government?
I think, 'cause you know, if you're
on, if you're on X or any of these
other platforms, it's just kinda what
you mentioned, the sermon on Sunday.
You're like, wow, this conspiracy
goes all the way up to God.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um, well, yeah, the, the joke
was, I'll just say it again.
This, so it's such a good joke.
Um, it was the idea that like, some guy
goes to heaven and he gets there and
talks to God and to pearly gates and
he's like, I just have one question.
Who killed, um, John F. Kennedy
and God's like Lee Harvey Oswald.
And the guy's like, oh man, the
conspiracy went higher than I thought.
You know, like, it just so good.
Just, but the basic idea behind the joke
is that conspiratorial thinking isn't.
Isn't rational, it's not evidentiary.
You're not actually concerned
with evidence because all evidence
points to your view, whether
it happens, it points to it.
If it doesn't happen, it points to it.
It means you're not
being rational anymore.
By definition, I don't mean
this as an insult, I mean, as
an actual technical definition.
Conspiracy theories are irrational
because no matter what happens, it
like reinforces your conspiracy.
It's like when you talk to a lunatic
and they say, well, I'm the king of,
well, it's truly, if you're, this is
what's so fascinating about the, the,
the rise of conspiratorial thinking.
It's making everyone a lunatic.
And, and you should look up the
word lunatic, where it comes from
people looking at the moon anyways.
No, there is no moon.
You think there's a moon?
Uh, it's barbecued spare ribs.
Yeah.
No, but, but if you think of a conspiracy
thinking, what what's going on is when
you talk to somebody that says, I am the
president of the United States secretly,
and this, like a homeless guy says it.
How do you say he's not?
And you say, well, no, no,
you're, you're, your picture
isn't on the, the dollar bill.
And like, that's what I know,
that they had to take it off.
Well, there's no evidence of that.
I'm like.
Right.
That's 'cause they erase it.
We're like, yeah, but this other
guy saw, I'm like, do you think if
they were trying to hide the real
king, they would just let that go?
Well then why would they leave you alive?
I'm like, well, because
there'd be martyrs if I die.
You can make up anything you want.
Like just you realize nothing you
say matters because you're not
in the realm of like rationale.
You're not being in good faith.
And what happens is when we, we
engage in it, we basically train
ourselves to become lunatic.
We basically stop being rational.
In other words, there's no evidence
that will ever make you think it.
And it's sad because when a Christian
does it, of all people, it's actually
disgusting because we are the only
people that have a rational faith.
Truly.
Like the Bible is faith,
but it's rational.
It is not.
You think like Mormonism.
Mormonism doesn't make any sense.
It doesn't.
It's not rational.
There's all the evidence goes against it.
They did a DNA test of American Indians
who they says the lost tribe of Israel.
And they're like, not only are they not.
Uh, Jews, there's no people
further apart genetically.
Like that's God testing us.
It's irrational.
The Bible's not like that.
So as people that have a rational
faith, when you then engage in
conspiratorial thinking, you're
basically undermining the very
rationality of the faith of the Bible.
Like it's a, it's a terrible,
terrible combo, right?
If I say one true thing in the mix
of 50 false things, I just made
that true thing tarnished, you know?
Um, so conspirator thinking ba basically
comes from this idea of training
yourself to refuse to look at evidence.
It's just, now can you be skeptical?
Like, especially with this moment
right now, every time something comes,
it's propaganda, what's the source?
I get it.
But there needs to be a
reasonableness and a modesty to this.
And if you have a view, you ought to be
willing to define, at least to yourself,
what would cause you to change that view.
And a lot of people would say,
well, nothing, nothing would
cause me to change that view.
I'm like, well, then you're no
longer having a rational view.
This is just a faith.
And it could be blind or not blind, but.
It's no longer in the realm of
like discussion at that point.
And so it's ironic because, um,
sometimes conspiratorial, thinging
comes into science, like with
the whole climate change stuff,
you couldn't even discuss it.
They were starting to use words like,
oh, if you don't believe you're a denier,
well that's not the language of science.
That's the language of conspiracy.
Conspiracy and heresy and, and whatnot.
So it's sad that we're starting to like
do that, but I think people are having
these echo chambers make them more
confident in their views and they're
just, there's no modesty in them.
So, um, if you, if you have a strong
view and you haven't exposed yourself
to the best arguments of the other side.
You should recognize that you're
probably a bit of in an echo chamber.
And I don't think we
have the time all day.
I don't think people should spend
their time all day going to the
arguments of their other side.
What I'm saying is we ought to be more
modest in general, and if we're going to
hold strong opinions, we ought to steal
man the other side instead of straw man,
it, we ought steal man the other side so
that we can see the strong view and have
a little bit more nuance and modesty.
And I know that it does, it
seems worthless right now because
we're in a soundbite culture.
And the, some of this might even make
it into a soundbite, which is ironic,
but that kind of thinking more and
more is gonna be valued, especially
with the rise of AI and stuff.
So I think your ability to
practice that is gonna be valuable.
So yeah.
Yes.
You mentioned a little bit about.
You know, talking to someone who
believes in conspiracies, in that
same vein, same thread, um, how do
you engage with someone who votes?
Let me ask a more, let me ask more.
Is this one about America?
'cause I've already lost it,
I've already lost the thread.
Well, let me, lemme ask
a, I'm dead on that one.
This is a way more provocative one.
Okay.
Uh, can a believer vote democratic?
And a lot of times what I get is just
simply based on their views on abortion.
Could a believer vote democratic
in a presidential election?
You know, the more you think about this,
it's, it's a, it's a bait question.
Oh yeah.
All right.
Yes, of course.
A believer can, yeah.
Vote for anybody you want, you
know, you can vote for anyone you
want as a believer in Jesus Christ.
Period.
You can be a part of any
political party that you want.
The Bible wouldn't say you couldn't do it.
You can have all this.
You're gonna answer to God, period.
So I, we shouldn't be in the
church weighing in and giving
people a litmus test for what makes
someone a believer on any subject
except their view on Jesus Christ.
Period.
End of story.
However, however, um, if you're a believer
in Jesus Christ and you vote Democrat,
it tells me a few things about you.
Number one, you are either, um,
you there isn't.
Well, the platform of the Democratic
Party is based on everything God hates.
I'm just gonna say it.
Every view that comes up.
The Democratic Party right now is
on the wrong side of it, in my view.
Now someone can disagree.
They're like, that's the
beauty of our country.
And can a Christian disagree?
Yes, but if they say,
well, what do you mean?
I'm like, okay, so whatever
the issue is, bring it up.
You're like, oh, we're
talking about prostitution.
I guarantee you.
Well, the left, oh, we love it now.
I'm like, I thought you were a feminist.
Well, that's great too.
Sharia law.
And he jumps, well, we like those too.
I'm like, those things, what's
the common thread on all the
views they hold together?
Hijab and gay people and, uh,
no kids with consent and, um.
You know, people being, uh,
men in women's sports and like,
none, none of those things.
They all contradict each other.
The only thing they have in
common is hatred of the west and
the presuppositions of Western
civilization, which is the Bible.
It's the only like, and so
you're like, I'm for those.
And like, okay, that's fine.
I, I, I think maybe that's just,
especially if someone comes into the
church, maybe that's where you come from.
I would love to fill our church
with people that vote Democrat and
they come into our church because
that means that they're, they don't
know that these things very well.
Like, I want us to make
disciples of people.
So there's always gotta be a
welcoming sense that the thing
that they need is Jesus Christ.
If I meet someone that is so
like, okay, let's go back to
the question from the Amy.
That person that they're talking
about doesn't have Jesus.
People that have Jesus
don't speak that way.
Well, maybe they do.
Well then.
Uh, my response would be like,
Hey, as a believer, the way
you're talking is immodest.
You know, that kind of thing
actually makes sense to a believer.
So if they, if they don't know Christ,
the issue isn't their politics.
The issue is they need Christ.
And I think that's the issue with when it
comes to voting, uh, one way or another.
I just think that the Republican
Party is corrupt to its core
and so is a Democrat party.
I don't care about that.
The policies of both
parties have ups and downs.
How the sausage is made, when you
get to behind the scenes of why they
have to do certain things, I get it.
Most people aren't interested in it.
Politics should be boring.
Unfortunately.
It's not.
It's entertaining, but because
there's the stakes to it, right?
Um, and people feel really strongly, and
I think for so many right now on the left
in particular, politics is a religion.
It is the reason that they will
ban and borrow you from your views.
There's people that are watching
this podcast right now that will
turn it off simply because I said
something favorable about Trump.
A Christian will put up with
people lambasting their savior.
What?
You know what I mean?
Like, but not, oh, you better
not mention, I guess something
about my political party.
I think it just shows where people's,
um, sort of idolatry is and so, yeah.
I don't think a Christian
should vote Democrat.
Can you and be a Christian?
Yes.
There's, you know, something's up.
That's weird.
I'm gonna kinda rapid fire a few.
Thanks Matt.
Um, just to wrap up our time
America, lemme just say it really
quick 'cause I didn't get to it.
You just, I never, well, I,
yeah, I'll let you get to it.
No, I'm getting to it now.
I'm just asserting myself.
I already forgot what, like
I was so hot on it now.
I trusted.
No, you said, you said, uh, why
should they have a revolution?
Well, yeah, yeah.
Was the Revolutionary War a good thing?
It was a good thing.
Was it, was it being unjust and
by like was the Bible against it?
I think I answered that my
other question, but mm-hmm.
You did.
Oh, okay.
That's kinda boring.
But I do think, okay.
The fascinating part that people
forget is not like George Washington
and the rest, they're like,
let's just like resist Britain.
The argument was that the
Britain was basically treating
America like a separate country.
It was a colony that was being
treated like a separate country,
but then they taxed them like they
were part of Britain, but they
didn't give them any representation.
Mm-hmm.
So the, the revolution wasn't
saying, we just wanna revolt.
It was saying, you're already
treating us as a separate nation.
Either give us representation as a part of
the nation, that's the, the just thing to
do, or we're gonna be a separate nation.
That was really like what
kicked the whole thing off.
It was, it was more of a self-defense
than it was, um, sort of a, a standing up.
That's all I wanted to say.
And it made sense when I said
it, but now I'm just, it's
randomly floating in the air.
That's great.
Um, that's why it's always
best if I ask the questions.
Uh, right.
Alright.
You're the host.
Uh, uh, I'm gonna, I learned my lesson.
These are, these are a bit,
uh, should Christians
support the death penalty?
Yes, 100%.
If you don't support the death
penalty, you might think you're being
just, you're not biblical period.
A hundred percent.
The Bible literally overtly defines
that we should have the death penalty.
The very first thing that God says
to Noah when he gets off the arc
is put the manslayer to death.
The the like, the.
And why?
Because this is valuing life.
The idea was that for the government to
have the power to wield the sword, you
have to show that life matters enough
to have the government put to death.
The manslaughter, the death penalty is
the proper penalty because we value life.
This isn't something that you say,
oh, I debate, or I feel like this.
Feel whatever you want.
If you have a debate, you're
having it with God himself.
This is not a, a subtle issue.
It's one of the easy ones in the
Bible, and so we should be pro death
penalty, obviously, anti-abortion.
People are like, how can those two be?
I'm like, God's not against death.
Oh, is that your next question?
Yeah.
That's good.
That's why I'm the host now.
Yeah, go.
Yeah.
All right.
No, finish that thought.
'cause yeah, that's an
argument I have heard before.
Yeah.
I, I just wanna, when someone
comes out, but when it comes outta,
it's coming outta a good place.
And what happens is someone thinks
they found an inconsistency and
like they're, they're trying to
accuse you of being inconsistent.
Like, see, you're picking and choosing.
I'm like, before you answer it,
you wanna say, if I can show you
that I'm not picking and choosing.
Would you then, you
know, take my position.
If they say no, then say, okay,
they're not in good faith, but
let's say they say, yes, I will.
The argument is the
Bible defines both views.
Death penalty and pro-life are pro-life.
But death, penalty and
anti-abortion are pro-life, right?
Because we value life.
You put to death the manslayer
because we value life.
We don't kill babies in the womb.
That's the argument.
And the Bible makes it, there's, there's
a consistency all the way through.
Um, we value life people
made in the image of God.
So we don't murder them.
We put murders to death.
The the church, the not church doesn't.
The government does.
And in the Old Testament had the
offender of blood that did it.
But, um, but now the government
particularly has that, that role.
So both are pro-life.
Absolutely.
Should, uh, pastors speak
about politics from the pulpit?
100%. Yeah.
Why do you, why, why would they not?
I mean, look at Jonathan Edwards.
That like the, to a degree though,
politics have a place often to, like,
that's the religious debates of the day.
People aren't sitting in bar rooms
talking about religion like they did
in the sort of reformation, right?
Mm-hmm.
Um, they're talking about politics,
and these are religious debates.
And so those are areas where you
should talk about the gospel.
And so the government isn't
God, the government doesn't
get to define these things.
The people need to understand it.
But, but on the flip side of things,
the, the church, the pastors can
talk about anything they want.
They, they, they're gonna
stand in before the Lord.
Should they be spending
too much time on that?
I don't think so.
That's not wise there.
You as a pastor, your job is to preach
the word and there's, there's areas where
the government does come up like it.
The polemic against the prevailing
view will, will come up, right?
But, uh, you have a responsibility.
And that responsibility is primarily first
and foremost, and in every case to preach
the word in season and outta season.
And so, um, in that, you
may find areas to do that.
Now, could you have a separate night?
That of the week where you're
speaking, where it's overtly about
politics and worldview abs, you,
I think churches should do that.
In fact, I think it would relieve
a lot of tension from Sundays, like
keeping, and that's what we do.
So if you ever come to Bravos Road Church
or you can go to bravos.com on Tuesday
nights, we have these classes and it's
on theology and apologetics, but it's
really, you know, worldview and, and
its enva engagement with modern issues.
Right now we're going through
the attributes of God, but it
kind of goes back and forth.
That gives a side, area, a pocket
where we can talk about these things,
where they ought to be talked about.
There needs to be someone
talking about them, uh, that's
trustworthy and, and stuff, but.
Yeah, you, you should be able
to talk about anything you want.
Yeah.
Agreed.
Uh, two last questions.
I'll end on a high note, but the
first one is just regarding globalism.
Is this a threat for Christians?
Is it a tool globalism, or should,
should we be neutral in it?
Do we want, uh, America like teaming
up with all these other nations?
Yeah.
Um, the word globalism is interesting.
Let's define it a bit like, so global free
trade I think is a net good for everyone.
Mm-hmm.
Um, to have global free trade, America
has to uniquely be the hegemony power
that's controlling all the waterways,
kind of, because we allow for free trade,
you're already seeing what's happening
when people wanna limit free trade and
the straight of hormones and whatnot.
Um, but global free trade also
has some big negatives, right?
Because if there's a great book that.
Was called the next a hundred years, and
it was about the breaking down of, so
sort of global free trade globalism in
that case, I think has been a good thing.
Um, but globalism often takes on a
connotation of essentially one world
government and liberal politics,
kind of, sort of a fascistic
liberalism spreading around.
Um, obviously against that,
you know, I don't like that.
And in the Bible, um, the Tower
of Babel was the picture of
man deciding to come together.
We talked about this in our Borders
podcast, but I'll repeat it.
Um, borders and governments
being separated is God's
restraint upon the evil of man.
And so the idea that the go the world
comes together in one government is
literally Babel repeated, and it's when
the antichrist is, uh, comes on the scene.
That's literally the, the whole.
Argument is that everyone's sort
of united in this one global order.
The whole reason for confusing
languages and spreading people out
was to restrain man's ability to
unite in rebellion against him.
And so this is one of the
ways God restrains evil.
So borders, governments, um, you know.
Waterways lands, conflicts.
These keep, you know, the,
the, the humanity from being
sort of the next battle.
Yeah.
So, uh, and on a good note, you know, when
I, my son River, my oldest, uh, turned
eight and he can now pick up when I'm
ranting about the government and politics
and he kind of called me out on it.
And, uh, 'cause he is like, well, doesn't
the bible say to pray for your leaders
instead of, instead of yell about them?
And I said, shut up kid.
Good for him.
Look good for him.
I said, I said, you should know.
Um, that said like, yeah, what are,
yeah, I was extremely convicting.
What, what are good?
Like what should we pre praying for,
for these rulers and authorities
as first Timothy tells us to do?
Yeah.
You know, what I would do is if, if you
are someone, so I, for me, I don't really
listen to podcasts except this one.
Now you do listen to this one.
This is what's so ironic.
So I'm like, it is the weirdest
experience every week, but it'll pop
up, a new one pops up and I'll just
like see the thumbnail that Chancy
makes, which is always awesome.
And then I'm like.
Alright.
Just lemme just see how
it looks for a second.
And I find myself watching it and I'm,
I'm so ashamed that I watch our podcast.
Like, is that, that's a weird, I've,
I thought to myself, there's no way.
'cause I don't really watch my sermons.
I I don't really watch sermons.
No, that's horrifying.
I, um, I would never, I have before,
but, terrible, terrible idea.
But, uh, but I'm bored
of hearing what I say.
Right.
But I weirdly watched our podcast and
I'm like, I'm sort of ashamed of that.
Like, that feels like I
shouldn't tell people that.
Um, uh, but, but before other, other
than this, I, the other thing I do
is I listen a lot of politics and
I enjoy politics as entertainment.
Right.
If I'm honest.
Mm-hmm.
Well, the way to keep you from
just most of what we imbibe about
politics, for example, and learning
about the news is meant to outrage
us because we're not getting it
from, we're getting it from clicks.
Mm-hmm.
And so clicks are generated
from sort of outrageous things.
And so the outrage culture kind
of is constantly on the scene.
And so when we, I. If we know that
going in, if we just passively
listen to these things, we're
gonna constantly be outraged.
So a great trick is every time you're
going to read, listen, or hear something
about politics, when you're, when you
turn it off, take just a minute and pray,
um, for the good of our nation, for the
good of our rulers, whether no matter
who it is, pray for certain laws to pass.
Pray for things that happen.
You know, the, the good of
the government means praying.
You gotta pray for the government.
God allows us, this is what
being a good citizen would be.
So, um, no matter who's in power,
we want America to be safe.
We want America to the gospel to be free.
We want that to happen all over the world.
And, um, you gotta pray.
God hears, hears you.
You have, oh, if I said you
have access to the, if Trump
was calling you on the phone.
You'd be like, that's a powerful thing.
I'm like, you have access to the
creator of the universe who's
ultimately sovereign, who's ordained
that he would hear your prayers.
So when you watch something, every
time you're gonna turn it off.
Just take, take one second
and just, just pray.
Uh, for those politics,
it's a great way to do it.
If you don't watch any politics, I don't
know, set an alarm once a week to pray for
like five minutes for the, the government.
I think it's a wise thing to do.
Yeah.
Amen.
Well, thanks for your
time on this topic, Matt.
If you have questions on God and
government, or anything we talked
about in the podcast today, go
to a lot of words, podcast.com.
Click on the blue, ask a question
button, submit a question.
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person to get a free mug.
Uh, truly ask a question.
Uh, Matt, now it's time for
another episode of Does it slap?
I'm only gonna do one.
I have to pee so bad.
Does that slap?
So my only question is, uh, flip flops, do
they slap, oh, I used to wear flip flops.
I know this is a, I'm, I'm honestly
curious on this one with you.
Um.
Well, yeah, I should, should
a grown, a grown here.
I'll rephrase.
A grown man wearing flip flops.
Oh
yeah.
I think that your feet are ugly.
I think people's feet are ugly and I
just think that your toes are ugly.
I have these long, I have long
aristocratic toes and, uh, big space
between like, I like flip flops because
I can pick things up with my toes.
That's how long and beautiful they are.
Like a, they're made
for pain playing piano.
Um, I think flip flops are
fine, but you look ugly in them.
If you're a man, if you're a
woman, you can wear flip flops
because you have womanly feet.
Yeah.
Is that a, does that suck this?
But girls can wear flip flops.
I think when wear flip flops.
Slaps on girls does not slap on girls.
I mean, flip flops technically slap
your feet when you walk, so they
do slap definitionally speaking.
I just think when you're a guy
wearing flip flops, uh, I would,
I think guys should dress a
bit nicer and so grow up, man.
All right.
So does not slap.
For girls.
It slaps girls.
It slaps guys does not slap.
Yeah, flops don't slap All that's good.
Uh, Sean, see?
Anything to add?
Nope.
We're just, uh, we're Birkenstocks
are still okay though.
We're gonna wrap.
Join us next week as we
talk about assurance.
And by next week, I mean, I'm
gonna change into a different
jacket and record another podcast.
I go change shirts.
I don't even have another shirt.
Just go Skins.
Uh, thanks for joining us.
Always remember, uh, like and subscribe.
Buy some merge.
Give a shout out to
Chauncey in the comments.
This guy's putting everything
together each week.
Get a book mere membership.
Another book's on the way.
Larry, anything to add?
Nope.
You're a skull.
Alright, we'll see you
next week for assurance.
Hey Matt.
You know what really slaps what
our subscribers, the people who
watch the show you each week.
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