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Interesting people, insightful points of view and incredible stories on what’s popping and not popping in marketing, tech, and culture you can use to win immediately. Brands, Beats and Bytes boldly stands at the intersection of brand, tech and culture. DC and Larry are fascinated with stories and people behind some of the best marketing in the business. No matter how dope your product, if your marketing sucks your company may suck too. #dontsuck
DC: Brand Nerds. Brand Nerds. Brand Nerds. Ooh, we got a show for you. We got a Brands Beats and Bytes. This is a little different when Brand Nerds, uh, we bring you all some of the best business minds, marketers, entrepreneurs.
Sometimes we will bring you all folks that are from the world of academia as well. But today we have a twofer. So LT you and I have been to enough schools to see enough professors to understand. When you look at a professor, you might think, man, they are really, really good at teaching, but they would be terrible using Charles Barkley's parlance Terrible at business.
Similarly, lt, we have seen some extraordinary entrepreneurs. And we have thought to ourselves, we're really glad they're out there doing that business thing. 'cause they would be [00:01:00] terrible in a classroom. That's right. They would be absolutely terrible. But when you can find in one individual the ability to do both well, something special is happening.
And Brand Nerds in our building today, we have this rare breed that can do both academia and entrepreneurship equally well. LT, who do we have in the building with us today?
LT: Well, DC We have very good setup. We have Wilson Zehr in the house today. Welcome Wilson.
Wilson Zehr: Hey, how are you? Thank you for having me. Appreciate the opportunity.
LT: We're very happy to have you DC set that up perfectly. So we Wilson we gotta fill in, uh, our listeners who we call the Brand Nerds, uh, for who we have in the building. 'cause uh, you have some, um some amazing credentials. So we're gonna to walk those, the, the folks through that.
So, okay. Brand Nerds, Wilson is a successful tech [00:02:00] entrepreneur, business consultant and educator, as DC alluded to, and with education as the bedrock for his path to success. So, D, check this out.
DC: Mm-hmm.
LT: Wilson's range and depth of education is amazing. I'm gonna walk you through it quick. He first earns an associate's degree in computer science at Portland Community College.
His next stop is Portland State, who has been good to Wilson and Wilson has been good to Portland State. At Portland State, D listen to this. He earns his undergrad degree in finance. Mm-hmm. Followed by an MBA in both marketing and finance. Mm-hmm. He then pursues a PhD in System Science doing everything but the dissertation.
Then sometime later on he pursues another PhD this time in Engineering and Technology doing everything but the dissertation. And then finally, he actually attends Walden University where he earns a PhD in Technology and Management. So DC as you alluded to, uh, Wilson is [00:03:00] on the professional front. He's Dr. Wilson Zehr has 20 plus years experience in high tech and telecom over a decade working with SaaS products and services, internet related as well. He started his career as a software engineer, then expanded into full lifecycle product marketing. Program management, strategic alliances, executive leadership consulting, and teaching at the university level.
Over the course of his career, Wilson has created numerous new products and brands and successfully brought them to market. Wilson has established and managed strategic alliances with a number of the world's largest tech and communication firms. He is a serial entrepreneur who has been part of, started or advise more than a dozen technology startups.
He's also the co-founder and CEO of Eastern Oregon Ventures, Zehrmail and Cendix both of these companies being Zehrmail and Cendix have tech-based solutions providing customers the opportunity to transfer to paper-based products [00:04:00] easily. As I understand it, a key output for both companies is direct mail, what we will all receive in our mailbox.
Also known as snail mail. So while we have touched on direct mail here and there. Uh, in the 150 episodes plus of Brands, Beats and Bytes. Wilson is really our first direct mail expert on the podcast. We really like that. That's really cool. Additionally, Wilson has been on the faculty at Eastern Oregon University where he has taught marketing, finance, entrepreneurship, management, and business policy and strategy.
He has also been on the faculty at Oregon State University, Portland State University, Concordia University, which is in Portland, uh, Northeastern University and Chula Long Corn University in Bangkok, Thailand land. Looking forward to this one. Brand Nerds, welcome to Brands, Beats and Bytes, Wilson Zehr.
DC: That that is quite the auspicious introduction.
Wow, you've done quite a, you've done quite a lot, [00:05:00] brother. You've done quite a lot.
Wilson Zehr: I don't even recognize myself. Alright, so we, we, we missed my, um, not that it matters at all, but I do have a, a Graduate Certificate in Data Analytics from Harvard as you'll
DC: Oh wow. Okay. Okay. Sorry about that. Say, say that again.
Wilson. What, what, tell the Brand Nerd what you have now.
Wilson Zehr: Uh, graduate certificate and, um, data analytics university.
DC: Got it, got it. From Harvard. Uh, they've been in the news lately. I don't know if you know that or not Wilson, but they've been in the, in the, in the news a little bit. Alright Wilson. So this is the part of the, uh, podcast where we get into, I. What we call Get Comfy. It's a setup to get us all comfortable before we go into the questions, but there are a couple things I wanna point out before asking you this question.
The, the first one is this, you know this well because you grew up in this area. Uh, Brand Nerds. My former wife is a native of Seattle, Washington. And for those of you all [00:06:00] around the globe, 'cause we've got listeners in more than 100 countries, Wilson, who have never been to the Pacific Northwest of the United States, go, yes.
You, you hear about the rain, I know you hear about the clouds, but a sunny, clear day in the Pacific Northwest is one of the most beautiful things you can ever experience in your lifetime. So true. It's extraordinary. So I just want to say that about the Pacific Northwest. The next thing is, uh, is this -Wilson, here you are as a person that has been equally adept in the world of academia and in entrepreneurship. And I said at the top of the podcast that it's hard to find people that are good at both. Mm-hmm. Can you share a little bit about, from your vantage point, both of these vantage points, what does it take for a great [00:07:00] person in academia to transfer that successfully into business and then flip it and say, for someone that's really good at business, what can they do to be better at teaching?
And I don't just mean teaching at a university level, uh, Wilson, I mean, teaching people in general. What have you learned about these two vantage points?
Wilson Zehr: That's a great question. It's a tough question though. It's, um. And, and I don't, uh, pretend to be an expert on, on that transition at all. Um, I just, I just know what I do.
Um, I think the key for me is being able to, um, being able to relate to people and try to see the world the way they do. You know, what are the problems they try to solve? What are the issues they're gonna run into. In my classes [00:08:00] um, um, first of all, I try to set, I try to set a structure, you know, be very, um, predictable about, excuse me, about what's required, about what we're gonna cover, where we're going, you know, set expectations appropriately, which is an important skill for business as well.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then typically when we have class sessions, um. I don't do lectures. I have a discussion, right? We'll come with a set of PowerPoints. We'll put up something on the board and say, today we're gonna talk about X. Here's an example that I just saw in the news. And I try to teach it, to tie it to current events, something that'll resonate with the students, something that that's interesting and personal.
And, um, and say, you know, we'll go through it together. Did you guys see this? And then, um, how does it fit? What do, what does that make you think of? And then we, we'll just have a conversation and we'll use that conversation to talk through whatever the topic might be [00:09:00] this week or, or today. Um, not only does it seems to, oh, and along the way, I also, I, I work in stories, stories about real life situations that, that impacted me.
Um, one, the feedback I get from students a lot of times is that we really like this idea that you show us how you used it and gave us a story to hang it on so that. You know, it's, it is, it's hard to remember bullet points, but it's easier to remember stories and pictures. So if you look at my materials, usually it's a picture.
I'll show a picture and tell a story and we'll talk about it. Um, and what usually happens it is that not only are people more engaged, but are students more engaged. Um, but I usually learn stuff too. I learn stuff from the students that I would've never, I would've never even known to ask about, you know?
Mm-hmm. Um, and so that's a, it, it really keeps things fun and interesting for me too. Mm-hmm. I also make liberal [00:10:00] use of experts, you know, I get friends or people I have from business, I get them into the classroom. Um, give them some, some pointers and, and allow them to engage with the students as well. So, um.
They get a different set of perspectives. I do think it's very useful to be able to have the implementation perspective. Mm-hmm. Which is not always evident in the classroom. I cer certainly not, I mean, as you can tell, I, I have a lot of education, more education than any person should ever have, but I do, for better or worse.
Um, but I can tell you that a lot of my professors didn't do that and didn't know how to do that. Mm-hmm. But, um, being able to, um, to look at materials. So sometimes, we'll, we'll talk about a topic and I'll say, Hey look, you know, we, you know, we're talking about X and here's what the book says. And, and you can try and do it that way.
But here's what I think will happen. If you [00:11:00] do, we'll go through two or three things, but he, you know, based on my experience, here are some other alternatives we could try. Mm-hmm. And then maybe that class session or next class class session, I'll pull in somebody from an agency or from a company mm-hmm.
And tee up the question and say, what do you think? How would you deal with this? Right. Mm-hmm. And so I think what we get to, we get to take advantage of the studied learnings of our colleagues in academia. Mm-hmm. But we also get to take advantage of those people who got, you know, all the scars from, you know, they're battle hardened.
Mm-hmm. And, and, and that, you know, that point counterpoint, I think is really powerful. And, you know, it, it. It's not like there's really a checklist, right? You know, if I see A, I'm gonna do B. If I see C I'm gonna do DI mean, there's always a, a lot of choices [00:12:00] and it depends on the situation and the people involved and the potential implications.
And so it's really better, rather than trying to memorize a solution, it's really better to understand what tools I have available to me. Mm. Right. And what you know, and what the tradeoffs look like. What are the, you know, potential benefits and, and downsides of that particular decision. And then based on, on that, those, that collection of choices, being able to make the one that makes the, the most sense.
And, and in that kind of a discussion, we often also talk about the idea that sometimes there's no good choices. Right. Sometimes you just have to choose between, um, the least of the worst choices. Yeah. You know, the least of the bad choices. Right? Yeah. I. I mean, you don't always have a winning hand and, and that, that's gotta be okay too.
You're gonna have to work with what you got to work with, you know.
LT: And you move on.
DC: Agreed. [00:13:00] Exactly. Often, often the case, often the case. Uh, any, any more, Wilson? 'cause I wanna ask Larry if he has any thoughts. I have a couple.
LT: Go ahead, D.
Wilson Zehr: No, I, I, I think that that's, that's good. I, I think oftentimes, um, it's maybe easier for the business person or the entrepreneur to move into academia than the other opposite way.
Mm-hmm. Um, the folks in academia, you know, and I have a lot of colleagues in academia, so I, I'm not gonna say anything bad, but it's di more difficult when you show up and you already think, when you think you already have all the answers. Right. And, you know, and, and so it takes some learning to, to be able to, you know, to step back and say, Hey, I don't have all the answers.
Mm-hmm. Let's see what, what we can learn about this situation.
DC: Hmm. So Wilson, I'm gonna pick up exactly there. Um, Larry, uh, likes quotes as do I, and one of his favorites [00:14:00] is from former UCLA basketball coach John Wooden. Okay. Considered to be the goat of college, uh, men's college basketball coaching. One of his quotes is, "it's what you learn after you know it all that counts."
Okay. And so this is what you're talking about here. And, uh, Larry and I, we attempt to be great students. Mm-hmm. Always learning. And it, it, it sounds to me, based on the last thing you just said, that you concur with that. And then here's another thing around you. You talked about, uh. There are a collection of choices.
So I'm gonna go to another, uh, person who has a great quote and that's Will Smith. And Will Smith. When he talk, he talked about his parenting. He said he gives information, he doesn't give advice. He said, here is the information. You can take the information and do what you want. You [00:15:00] can use it to inform a decision or choice or not, but it's just information.
And so you, interestingly, Wilson as a professor, you, you talked about the stories and the pictures and using current events, current events, you have been giving your students information and then they, I don't know any of your students, but I would imagine they then go, thank you Doc. I think Thank you Dr. Z. I appreciate that. I am now better equipped to make better choices in my career. I think that's pretty dope. That's pretty dope.
Wilson Zehr: Thank you. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. I, I mean, one of the programs we worked on is the capstone program for, um, I've done that at pa, Portland State University, Concor University in Eastern Oregon University, where we actually, the students are required to complete a community, a project with a community partner.
Mm-hmm. So a nonprofit, a business, a government agency, love that. [00:16:00] And so we'll go through the strategy curriculum and the business curriculum, but then we'll have a real problem that we need to solve for the community. And we'll put that on the board and we'll work through it together and we'll talk about how it applies to what we're learning.
And at the end of that session, the students, like a group of consultants, have to present that to the client and they have to be able to defend their, their position. Um, and I just, I, it's, it's so interesting because during the first two or three weeks, they look like, the students look like deer in headlights, you know, they're like, oh my God, how are we ever gonna do this?
And then that confidence starts to build and by the end they say, yeah, I get it right? Mm-hmm. And they're the experts and that's really, that's a feel good for me for sure. Yeah.
DC: That's gotta be gratifying as a professor. Gotta be gratifying. Alright, LT, I'm gonna go to the uh, next section. You got anything else's?
Alright, here we go. Five questions. Dr. [00:17:00] Z, five questions. Larry and I go back and forth. I get to kick things off. Think back, take yourself back first branding experience that you recall you loved interacting with this brand, looking at this brand, listening to this brand. It just captivated your imagination and your heart a bit like a first love.
What was that first branding experience for you, Dr. Z.
Wilson Zehr: That's a, that's another great question. And it, it's actually, um, it's interesting because I, I teach in, I teach, when I teach at the university level, I teach entrepreneurship, marketing, finance, and business strategy. Okay. And so I teach an actual marketing class where we go through branding.
Mm-hmm. And, um, I can share a couple of the, the brands that I think are, are interesting. I mean, I, I, so this is for,
LT: I'm gonna interrupt you. We wanna know the ones that got you in your [00:18:00] heart? Yes. Yeah. We, the brand that hit you,
DC: the one that got, you captured your heart. Not, this is not a academic thing. Yeah.
This is like, like what was it for you?
Wilson Zehr: Yeah, no, that's a great question. Is a harder one is it's, it's, uh, been a long time. Okay.
DC: That's okay.
Wilson Zehr: I didn't know. I, as a kid, I grew up with the 49 ERs. I thought the 49 ERs.
DC: There we go. There we go.
Wilson Zehr: You know? Um, and that was, that was, um, that was when the 49 ERs were really bad.
Yeah. And, and then we got Joe Montana and Bill Walsh and things changed for a decade, you know, so that was a, a big deal for me as a kid.
LT: Hmm. That's a great one. Uh, there's the emotional connection that we're looking for, for a brand that got you, that is, that, that really connected you. And, uh, you know, sports teams have a way of doing that, especially if they go from, from bad [00:19:00] to, to great.
Um mm-hmm. Because that you feel like you're a part of that because you're a part of that infrastructure. Which is great. D, anything you wanna add to this?
DC: None for me. 49 ERs. I get it. The Lions were bad most of my childhood and all of my adulthood until recently, so I get it.
Wilson Zehr: Yes. Uh, I do, I do, I do marvel at, you know, we, we talk about this, um, continuum between brand versus response. And I do marvel at what the guys at, at Nike do. I mean, they, they have done an amazing job with that brand and they just say, just do it. And there's a person with a soccer ball and there's nothing else on that page, and you just get it, you know?
LT: Mm-hmm. We, we talk about Nike a lot, and the cool thing about Nike is they're not always great. They lose their way, but they always find their way back's
Wilson Zehr: true.
LT: Which, which is really cool and. We, uh, we talked about that during the, the Super Bowl. They did a great job of, uh, of, of [00:20:00] sort of getting back to their roots, uh, with a great Super Bowl ad that we've talked about on the show.
Okay, I'm gonna go to the second question, Wilson. So Wilson, who has hat or is having the most influence on your career?
Wilson Zehr: I, oh, that's a, that's a really good question that I'm not sure I have an answer to. Um, because my career goes in, in a number of different directions, right? I mean, I've got this, well, you,
LT: you give one or two people that at pivot points if you like.
Wilson Zehr: Okay. Yeah, I, I, I think, you know, when I look at my, my career, it, it is kind of a bimodal at this point. I mean, I've got this, I've got a piece of it that's an academia until recently, you know, when I'm working on some publication, I'm working on a book in business strategy, and I finished up this program in business analytics.
Um, but I'm also doing, you know, I'm a serial entrepreneur, so I'm always working on two or three different ventures. Um, and I, [00:21:00] I don't, you know, I, I would say that I'm, I'm always striving to achieve things for my family to build a better, you know, a life for us together. Mm-hmm. Um. There's, it's always, it's more of a phrase that drives me.
It, there's a phrase called make it real. And this is what I share with Stu with students when we're talking about entrepreneurship. The most powerful thing about being an entrepreneur is everybody has ideas. And most people just sit on the couch and think about it. True ENT entrepreneurs, they make it happen.
And part of that is to have a dream and make it real. Right. You know, being able to turn it from a vision or from some inkling or from a, you know, just a, a, a dream, you know, a scary dream, and turn it into something real that impacts people's lives. And more than anything, you know, I've written about innovation entrepreneurs change the [00:22:00] world.
You know, General Motors doesn't change the world.
LT: Yep.
Wilson Zehr: Amazon changed the world.
LT: Yep.
Wilson Zehr: Right? I mean, and, and you can look at, if you look at innovation over time, I did my dissertation on innovation and mm-hmm. Diffusion of innovations. If you look at it, these waves of innovation are all driven by entrepreneurs trying to do great things, trying to change the world.
And so that inspires me. Being able to get up every morning and say, how can I change the world? Mm. For me, that's powerful.
LT: Okay. That works for me. D you wanna go to the next question?
DC: I do. Dr. Z You don't accomplish what you've accomplished in the world of academia, uh, and or the world of business without having lots of wins, lots of successes.
This question has nothing to do with any of those. None of them. So we don't, we don't want to hear about [00:23:00] any of the wins in any of the successes in answer to this question, which is. Of all of the things that you have done, which one for you is the biggest F up? And it was on you, not on anyone else. It was on you and your thinking that caused the F up and more importantly, Dr.
Z, what did you learn from said F up?
Wilson Zehr: That's a, a great question and I, and I think, um, somebody mentioned it earlier, so I'd have a time to think about Okay. And I'm not sure. I'm not sure I can think of just one. Okay. Um, um, I mean, there have been lots of, of things that we've invested in over time mm-hmm.
That have turned out that, that have not panned out. We've spent millions of dollars. Good one on products. Give us a good one, then.
DC: Yeah, just pick, pick us a good one. And, and not so much the, we as in the company, but [00:24:00] I, yeah. Directed our company to invest in this thing and it just didn't work.
Wilson Zehr: Right. Well, we'll see if Speedy works,
DC: but that's, that's not done, that's launching about what's already happened.
Let's go something that, you know, did not work
Wilson Zehr: Well, I have a, I have a, a branded, I have a, a venture that's still in restart mode. We'll see if, uh, we'll come back and do a, a, another shot at it. But we do a, a, a. We have a company that does sustainable balsa wood surfboards called Ana Surf. It's a concept that I love and in particular, I love it because I've spent most of my career in technology and it's something different than that.
You know, it's more, um, artisan inspired, more environmentally focused. Mm-hmm. And the surf industry is, um, is interesting because what we've learned about that is about 90% of the purchase in the [00:25:00] surf industry are not hard goods like surfboards and wetsuits and stuff. They're apparel. And so you build a brand and you use that brand to sell apparel.
Um, and so we started out to do these, these bal wood surfboards. The surfboards are beautiful. You can see 'em on the board. They're expensive 'cause they're handmade. Um, and, and they're sustainable. But it turns out that that price point people aren't as willing to step up and buy them. Mm. Um, they tend to be wall hangers if people do buy them.
Um, and they are beautiful. But the, the marketplace, and we, we looked at this marketplace of baby boomers, right? Baby boomers who are getting older, who are now have, are who grew up with surfing and they're affluent and they can afford expensive toys and, and the, um, environmentalism is important to them.
It's part of their DNA
LT: That's all logical, very logical.
Wilson Zehr: Right. But at [00:26:00] the end of the day, we just don't sell a lot of 'em. Okay.
LT: Um, what would you do different? Knowing, knowing what you know now?
Wilson Zehr: I think, you know, the eco focus things are, are, for me personally, are, are good. I mean, it's good for us to be effective stewards of the planet and leave more for our, you know, leave a, a good legacy for our children. I mean, that's what it's about for me. Um, but in general, I've found that people don't pay extra for that.
I mean, if you can give them a good product or something interesting or useful and it's a little more, but, but it's got that eco-friendly, they'll do that. But people just don't pay extra just to be eco-friendly. Um, if I was to do it over again, I would, I would spend more time on the lineup of brand ambassadors.
I mean, we did have, we ha um, one of our early brand ambassadors was my gaa, the top female big wave surfer in the world. Oh yeah. Mm-hmm. And you know [00:27:00] from, you from the Bay Area, you know Mavericks, right? Oh yeah. I big wave surf spot right there. Oh yeah. And so we had, you know, we have Mark Anini local surfer who's expert in that area.
Um, so, so we did some, but I would do more, you know, kind of Red Bull style with brand ambassadors and then build off the brand ambassador, the brand to push more apparel. That's how I would approach it differently. We have a couple of different product ideas too, and I think, we'll, we'll circle back and take another shot at that one.
Okay. Just because I, I love the brand. The brand is really cool. Um, and I wanna,
LT: what's the name of the brand, Wilson? I'm sorry, I didn't catch that.
Wilson Zehr: It's called Yana, YANA, serve, SURF. Okay. Um, is, um, Hebrew for a vehicle for a spiritual journey. Ah, so it's. Yeah. It just all fits together. It, it, it, from a branding [00:28:00] perspective, it just works.
But we, we need to sell stuff Right. To be able to pay the bills.
DC: Right. Hey, uh, before we go to the next question, I want to just share this with the Brand Nerds. 'cause I learned something that I did not remember I learned until you shared this story. So the, most of the brand nerds know, uh, Dr. ZI grew up in Detroit.
Mm-hmm. And I can assure you that as I was down at the Detroit River, I did not see anyone catching waves. Okay. There was, there was no surfing at the Detroit River. But when we moved out to, when I moved out to California, um, I was with a startup at the time, uh, early stage in the technology space called Boost Mobile.
Okay, I remember that. Yeah. Yeah. Boost Mobile. And, and so, uh, we had what we called team riders. Boost mobile team riders, and we had them across an array of sports, skateboarding, BMX, biking, uh, motocross, and we also had surf surfers. And so this is when I became familiar [00:29:00] with brands like Billabong and Quicksilver and Rip Curl and O'Neil and Hurley.
And then a more recent entrance. Not, I mean not now, but back then was Volcom. Alright. Right. And so, and here's the deal. I never heard most of the people that were wore these brands, these are all surf brands by the way, brand nerds talk about ever surfing, okay? They didn't talk about that. It was about the lifestyle that they perceived to be associated with surfing.
So Brand Nerds, here's again, another example of you can have a wonderful product. Coming from a name, Yana and it can be bio friendly and nature friendly. And uh, but if it doesn't have some of that cultural stuff, lifestyle stuff that a Hurley has, you might sell a few surfboards. You ain't selling no damn t-shirts.
Okay.
Wilson Zehr: That's right.
DC: All right, so with that, I'll, uh, uh, uh, next, [00:30:00] next, uh, next question, lt.
LT: Yeah. So, uh, so Wilson, regarding technology and marketing, can you tell us where you think marketers should lean in or best leverage tech or you can, uh, go to areas that you think they should be leery or simply avoid?
Wilson Zehr: Uh, yeah, great question. Um. I really, um, I mean this comes up a lot in, in my area because people talk about direct mail. They say direct mail, you know, we do a lot of work with direct mail. But let, let, let me back up and say, first of all, what we do is software. I mean, I've spent my entire career in software and technology, and it just, it turns out that we've implemented several systems, cloud-based systems for automating the order of different types of products.
And, and one of the products we work with is direct mail. So print production and distributed predict print production. I mean, as, as technology goes in this space, it's the most sophisticated [00:31:00] system that exists for doing this job. Mm-hmm. Um, which, you know, may or may not pay the bills. Right. I mean, we learned that in technology.
Right. The best technology doesn't always win. Mm-hmm. Um, that's right. But we, you know, we, um. People ask about direct mail, they say, well, that's old school. You know, did that still work? Should I really look at it? You know, and, and how much time should I put at it? It's more expensive than maybe digital technologies.
And I always say, you know what we have to do? I started my career as a mechanic, right? A mechanic. I never looked at my tool and said, what can I do with this crescent wrench? Right? I, I looked at the vehicle, we're looking, we're working on, and say, what's the problem and what's the most effective way to fix it?
Right? And what tools do I have to work with, right? Mm-hmm. You know, in the, in the old days, they have a flat rate band. You know, they give you two hours to do a. You know, to change a, a fan belt, if you could do it in 15 minutes, you win big. [00:32:00] And if it takes you two and a half hours, then you, you know, it's a thin weekend.
So. Right. Um, so from a marketing perspective, it's the same thing. I mean, we, we look at a, we should look at a problem, say, yep. You know, what's the problem we're trying to fix? Where's the customer along their journey? Um, and then what tools do we have to work with? I do have an example, a practical example I can share with you.
I, I, I'm not sure how we're doing on time.
DC: We're fine. We we're fine. Okay.
Wilson Zehr: But we had a
DC: You're good.
Wilson Zehr: Yeah. We had a, um, we worked on a, a bond initiative for a, a, uh, school district in La Grande, Oregon, which, um, and they were trying to replace a school gymnasium. There were matching funds available, so if they could get the local community come up with.
I think it was $2 million. I mean, might've been four, but it was two. Uh, anyway, millions of dollars. The state would match those funds. Right. But, but, um, you know, a lot of the people in the community are older and [00:33:00] they, they didn't have a direct, you know, a, it didn't impact them directly. And so how do we go about marketing a product like this?
And we started out by, um, by looking at the audience we're trying to address, or what is this bond? What is it gonna cause and what does the audience look like? Then we bought a voter file. From the county, right? And divided that used the demographics to divide it between those who are renters. Because in this county, those people, the way bonds are paid for is people who have a house or a property, they pay, you know, certain amount per thousand dollars of assessed value.
Right. The other folks don't. So we divided it between homeowners and renters and, and between those two groups, between those with kids in school and those who didn't, those are four audiences that we need to market to. We build a website. So we had a platform to communicate from. We, um, did social media.
We built communities around these different things. We did community meetings. We did in [00:34:00] Oregon, by the way, it's all vote by mail. It has been for. 35 plus years. Wow. Um, and so we know when the ballots are going out, we know when people are mailing. Mm-hmm. So we were able to do these meetings and we were able to send out a ma mail piece at the beginning of the cycle.
Um, one when the ballots arrived because some people vote right away. One when the ballots were, were actually due, you know, when the voting date came around. In the meantime, we did yard signs. We did, you know, uh, door hangers, we did meet and greets, you know, coffees, um,
DC: Canvassing.
Wilson Zehr: What?
DC: Canvassing
Wilson Zehr: Exactly.
Yeah. Those, so what we did is we used this collection of tools to and tune the messaging by the way, as you can kind, you can, uh, embrace right, tune the message for each of these audiences and then use the tools to reach them where they are at each phase of this journey. But it took us a whole, you know, a [00:35:00] whole quiver of tools to do that, right?
Not just one tool. We didn't say, how can we use social media to pass this bond measure. Mm-hmm. We said, you know, we've got a bond measure and we think it's a good deal for the community. How do we inform them so that they see it in the way that we see it, right? And, and, and just guide them through that journey.
And that was wildly successful for that community.
LT: Um, so I love that example. I love where you were going about. You started with really, who's the target audience, right? Mm-hmm. And what are going to be the most effective ways we can reach them IE marketing tactics? So then you came up with the different tactics and as you said, the messaging is going to be, I.
Predicated off the same foundation, but might be tweaked a little bit depending on, uh, upon whether it's a, you can, you can't say much in a yard sign that's gonna be effective versus, versus direct mail piece, which you can get into more detail. Um, [00:36:00] right. So you're about to say something Wilson.
Wilson Zehr: Well, no, I see.
Yeah, I was gonna add to, to your point, I mean, if I've got a homeowner who doesn't have kids in school, that what I'm, I want, what I'm gonna talk, talk to them about or share with them is this idea of community and being able to give to the community and pull people together, right? Because that's what they're doing is, is giving to their neighbors.
And if I have kids in school, then I need to talk about more personal interest, right? This idea of that, you know, your kids are gonna be benefiting from this thing, but those, those subtle differences make a big difference in a marketing campaign.
LT: Big difference. Totally agree. And I'm glad you brought that out.
Mm-hmm. And what, what I just wanted to hit a little bit before we go to the next question is that Brand Nerds. There's an As, as Wilson said, there's a quiver using the, the archery. There's a quiver of arrows that one has to connect with people, the different marketing tactics. And sometimes people forget about direct mail because it is looked [00:37:00] as, as, as you put it, old school Wilson.
But a lot of times it might be the thing that does break through because
DC: Yeah, yeah.
LT: Everybody's so into digital and so into the different forms of communication. We still all have mailboxes. We still get stuff. And so the reason why we Wilson, we, we, we wanna illuminate it is because here in 2025, it seems like, like you said, a lot of people's views that old school.
But maybe that's the thing that does break through because everything else is more cluttered. So keep that in the quiver is what is DC is what we would, we would suggest not, it's not right for everything clearly, but keep it in mind because it might be the, the, uh, the difference maker in whether you are, uh, overall campaign is successful.
That would be my little politicy. Um, before we get to the next question.
DC: 100% agree. Dr. Z, what are you most [00:38:00] proud of?
Wilson Zehr: That's a, that's a good question too. I mean, I, I mean, aside from things like, you know, wife and family and children and, you know, thi things like that, those are great too. Yeah. Which, which we all have, you know, um, I think are proud of. Um, if we're just say if we're, if we're focusing on, um. You know, career oriented stuff.
I, I, I mean, there's a couple of things that, that come to mind. One is the technology that we've created, you know, the idea that we've been able to create technology that impacted life, that changed life, that have helped people build careers and, and helped their families and stuff. I'm, I'm proud of that.
I'm also proud of the fact that, you know, working with students, I've worked with hundreds of students now, um, you know, in, in terms of teaching and coaching and, and honestly, when [00:39:00] you build relationships, I mean, it's, it's so important in, in a teaching environment to be able to build a connection, build relationships.
And once you build that relationships, sometimes students are coming to you for things that aren't cla stuff in the classroom too. You know, they're asking for your advice about other things, you know, they're making, you know, uh. Decisions about athletics or careers or family or other things? You know, it it, it's gratifying to one, be able to see people be successful, students be successful, but then to be able to build a level of trust where they, you know, they, they ask for your advice on other things too.
Um, in some of my marketing classes we do, we talk about, um, personal branding, right? We talk about LinkedIn and building a profile. Mm-hmm. And, and oftentimes I'll have students connect with me and I can see the, the see as their career progresses. And that's always gratifying too, to figure out, I mean, I, I, I can't take credit for that, [00:40:00] but to feel like I had some small role to play in that, um, feels good for me.
DC: Nice.
LT: Love that.
Nice. But there's the two prongs again, Dee, that you alluded to in your intro. Like, you know, yes, not too many people Wilson can say. The two things you both said is like tech, that's actually helping folks make their lives better. And specifically educating, uh, kids to, you know, to hopefully move their careers to a, to a better place.
So that's, those are two really cool things that you could genuinely say, and that's awesome.
Wilson Zehr: Thank you.
LT: All right. D, should we go to the next segment here?
DC: Let's do it.
LT: All right. What's popping? What's popping, D?
DC: What's popping?
LT: So, Wilson, this is our chance to shout out, shout down, or simply air something happening in and around marketing today that we think is good fodder for discussion.
So, Wilson, you mentioned to us, [00:41:00] um, about, uh, a scenario that, uh, you, there's a market situation. That's out there that, uh, I think you have some interesting things to talk about. You want to tee it up for us?
Wilson Zehr: I, I do. Yeah. We love to talk about it. Of course, as an entrepreneur, I always have, you know, a dozen ideas.
I always got a big list and, you know, always adding and scratching, right. Um, but one of the things that we noticed is that, um, and, and, and we're, you know, we build software for the mail industry. So that's something, you know, a lot of times when you see new innovations they come from, they come from people that are, um, immersed in a particular industry segment, because that's what it takes to understand the problem, you know, to identify the problem.
But a lot of the, you know, we, we still have a lot of people out there that are using something like a postal meter to send mail. Mm-hmm. A lot of people may not know what a postal meter is. There's a. There's a, most [00:42:00] of the marketplace for the postal meter is, say, is owned by a company called Pitney Bowes.
And basically they make a machine so that when you wanna send a letter, if you are a corporation, you wanna send a letter. You, you, you print the letter and you fold it, insert an envelope, you address the envelope, and you put it through this machine and the machine puts postage on it, and then somebody's gotta take that letter and get it in the mailbox.
Mm-hmm. Um, which is a, you know, it's a, it's a big investment for postage to put a, to put a, a, you know, an indicia on an envelope. Um. But a lot of corporations have been doing that for a hundred or more years. Right. And the reason why is because they treat postage like money, right? So they're worried about, um, you know, not manage their funds more, more carefully.
Mm-hmm. And one of the things that we noticed looking at that situation is that's not really the problem. If I wanna send a letter, there's a lot of steps involved. I, I have to compose the letter, I have to print the letter, I have to fold it, I have to put it in the envelope, I have to address the [00:43:00] envelope.
Once I address the envelope, then I have to put a stamp on it. Finally, that's the Pitney Bowes problem. Once I put a stamp on it, then I have to get it into the mail stream. So I have to get it into a mailbox somewhere with, if it's in that mailbox. And I haven't done something like presort with our bulk, you know, with our high volume mail is we do presort, we barcode the mail.
The mail moves very quickly. But if somebody hasn't done that, that mail not only does, it moves slowly, but it may not go to the right address. It may not be, you know, it, it may not move very efficiently and I have no idea whether it actually gets delivered or not. So in terms,
LT: lots of variables.
Wilson Zehr: Yeah. So there's a, this problem, it's a, a multifaceted problem, and the industry leader who's trying to solve this problem is just solving one piece of it.
In fact, they act like the rest of the problem doesn't even exist. And so what we'd created was a desktop application that will allow you to just create a letter, type it in word or, you know, create word or PDF and just drop it on the [00:44:00] icon. It says, do you wanna send this? You say yes. You put in the address, we turn it into a letter and send it.
LT: Wow. So, so in other words, the, the company's never printing paper. You guys are.
Wilson Zehr: Exactly. Yeah. And not only that is that, is that we produce it, so it'll be commercial produced in a commercial production facility. It'll be barcoded and sorted. Right. It will be, you'll see it, it'll be tracked as it goes through to mail stream, and you'll receive a delivery confirmation when it's delivered.
Wow. And you do that all for, you know, about the same cost as a stamp.
LT: Wow. That's pretty cool. Which company is this? Wilson.
Wilson Zehr: This is, uh, Zairmail. Zairmail.
LT: Okay.
Wilson Zehr: Like, like air mail with a Z on the front. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a little, um, so www dozer mail.com/speedy Speedy is the name of the product. Um, I think we think it's a very powerful solution for anybody who wants to send [00:45:00] mail.
Um, certainly we do, you know, we do high volume, direct mail campaigns and stuff, but this solves a very particular problem that, um, for whatever reason, people haven't. Chosen to solve in the past.
LT: That's really cool. Is it, can you do small batches or do you need to do a certain volume with this product?
Wilson Zehr: So with our, with our direct mail product, there's always some issues around, well, I wouldn't say issues.
There's no issues. We don't have many minimum volume
LT: Okay.
Wilson Zehr: With that product. But with Speedy, it's designed so you can send just one letter.
LT: Oh wow. Okay.
Wilson Zehr: Yeah. So one letter and what we do on the backend, we'll do, we'll take those letters, we aggregate 'em, right. And we use the volumes to get the postal discounts and to do the pre-sort and then send them out through a commercial production facility.
We actually operate a network of production partners across the United States. So that's how we handle fulfillment. Um, you could never, as an [00:46:00] individual le, you know, letter sender, you could never access those tools or that network, but we've made it simple for every person to access that.
LT: That seems really cool. Do you have anything?
DC: I do you want, you want to hit it first or you want me to go first?
LT: No, go.
DC: Okay. All right. So, fascinating to me that, um, Dr. Z is talking about a letter. Most of the Brand Nerds listening would go, Hey, you know, I don't, I don't do letters anymore. I'll send an email. Okay, I'll do, I'll do a, I'll do a tweet.
I, I'll, I'll send a DM in Instagram. Like, I don't, I don't, why do I need to do a letter at all brand nerves. Let me, lemme explain something to you all in the game of communication on any subject, once everybody does that form of communication all in the same way, when you take the step to do it in a different way, you [00:47:00] immediately stand out.
Yep. You immediately stand out. So what Dr. Z's, uh, creation is offering is an opportunity for you. Brand Nerds, including myself. To differentiate yourself. Yep. By using a letter. Now let me, let me go to something else. 51% of men, 18 to 24 51 have never asked a woman out on a date in person. 51%. Mm-hmm. Okay.
Seriously, that's an interesting sta. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 50, 51%. Okay. Okay. 80% of women, same age range. Wish that a young man in that age range would ask them out for a date in person. See this Delta 51%. Okay. 50% have never done it. 80% of women said, I wish you would do it. Alright. Here's the thing. What that data communicates, and I [00:48:00] think this also speaks to Zairmail slash Speedy, is that Brand Nerds, sometimes the old school way of doing things.
LT: Yep.
DC: It's the best way to do things. So that, that's my reaction to Dr. Z's creation.
LT: Yeah. You know what's interesting, D, that's what I was saying in the, in, in the question four. You did say that, you know, we're, we're saying the same thing, uh, Dr. Z is that we, we think that there's an opportunity here for people overall, but then certainly as marketers, to differentiate yourself because everything is so digital, and we love the solutions that you have because I, I, and by the way, I encourage everybody, check it out Zairmail.com, like if you go on, on Dr. Z solutions, on Wilson's company solution, they are so easy to use. Like, boom, boom. Like quick, quick, quick. You make a few clicks and you're done. So it's not like you're, uh, you're writing [00:49:00] longhand with the old big pen. You know, this is a much different deal. Um, so thanks for, uh, sharing that with us, Wilson.
That's, uh, that's really cool. That sounds super interesting to me.
DC: Can I say one more thing, uh, before you go Dr. Z? Sure, of course. All right. So, uh, so Larry, Dr. Z mentioned earlier, he does, uh, work with students on personal branding and he says he's looked at LinkedIn of some of his students and he's got some opinions about it.
I get it. Alright. Probably his, his opinions have range. Some of his students, he goes, you are really doing a great job. Personal branding. Probably others of his students. He say, you're not doing such a good job, but just imagine this Brand Nerds for a second. You are attempting to get to someone in LinkedIn.
You send them an invitation to connect. They connect. What happens, and this is an automatic feature that you, you, you can use, you can select this in LinkedIn, is you can say, thank you very much for connecting with me. That's what you do back and [00:50:00] that's what you do back and forth. Imagine if you ask someone to connect, they connected with you.
It's someone you want to have, uh, some relationship with, and you hit them with this Zairmail/Speedy, right? And popped up at their work or in their home. And it says, hey, by the way, this is Wilson Zehr and thank you for accepting my LinkedIn. I'm looking forward to connecting with you. Bow, mind blown.
Mind blown what? This, this person sent me a letter. These are the ways small nuances to diff differentiate yourself as a brand. Okay? I just wanted to get that out there. All right, Dr. Z, you gonna say something?
Wilson Zehr: Yeah. No, I was, I was building on that theme. I have a, I have a couple of friends that are like old school sales guys, right.
Enterprise sales. And one of 'em was telling me his secret over the years is he'll have a personal meeting with somebody and then he'll sit down, he'll write them a personal card, [00:51:00] right of personal letter. Thank you for the meeting. Really enjoyed talking with you. Yeah. Looking forward to seeing you on the seventh or whatever it is.
Puts it in the envelope, signs it and sends it. Yeah. And he says that personal letter gets him more meetings, more thank yous than anything else he does.
DC: It's not, it's not that difficult actually, if you think about it, because humans are humans no matter what technology gets put on top of us, whatever. I like how you, uh, talked Dr. Z about tools, no matter what tools we have. In our core, we want to be connected to other people, and we feel more connected when more human things happen.
LT: Yes. And you. Mm-hmm. You know what I'm gonna, our pod father who we talk about is one of, oh yeah. We don't have this podcast without our, uh, our wonderful friend Tom Dioro um, Wilson, who, uh, who was the one who got us started in this at Stanford, by the way.
Okay. [00:52:00] And to, Tom's gonna have to listen to this part. Yeah. Because, uh, he uses what you talk about all the time because Tom feels like no one does this anymore. He's as up to date as the next person as it relates to tech. But he thinks the personal touch of writing cards of doing things via mail is, is, is the part that differentiates people.
And he does it with CEOs and he is very successful at doing that. So we have to share with Tom y your, uh, their mail, because I think he, Tom, would be all over it because I think it would, uh, it'd be something that he would utilize in a great way. So I had to shout that out. Nice. Cool. Yeah. Yeah, man. I think we're, this was a great cut topic, Dr. Z. Thanks for, uh, thanks for sharing that. What's popping with us? It's really cool. We've never had anything like it. It's really cool. No. Um, so we appreciate that. So we're at the show close now, uh, Wilson. So, uh, I'm gonna share my thoughts and, uh, and then, [00:53:00] uh, allow DC to do his and, uh, we will give you space to see if you've learned anything from our conversation at the end.
So I have seven great ones, I think, ah, Wilson to share with you. So the first thing Wilson said when he, the first thing he said after the introduction was. He was talking about relating to people. Yeah, relating to people and Brand Nerds. This is an awesome foundation for any successful marketer. This means brand nerds.
You do what you can do to put yourself in the target audience's shoes. That's gotta be your first thought as it relates to marketing. So that's number one, which Wilson does. By the way, intuitively, number two, stories are a great device for effective communications. We can't say that enough. Number three, no one has all the answers.
Um, you should look out for the experts, which Wilson does all the time. He talked about bringing them into class who [00:54:00] can help you be smarter. That's, that's a huge one. Number four, um, love how Wilson in, uh, in his classes, he's integrating group projects for people, for his students. Uh, to actually work on real things.
And he's utilizing community organizations. Mm-hmm. That's good. And most community organizations don't know the first thing about, uh, about communications and marketing and whatnot. So this is such a huge win-win for all. That's such a great thing. So brand nerds, if you can do that too, to help other organizations like this who are always seeking, uh, help.
That's an awesome one. That's number four. Number five. Um, Wilson talked about, I think this might be one of his main things in his life. He's, he used three words, make it real. Make it real, right? So what that translates brand nerds is don't sit on the couch and do nothing. Take your idea and make it happen.
That's what [00:55:00] Wilson's done in his whole life. So that's number five. I've got two more. Number six, like Wilson did with his bond initiative, you gotta figure out who your target audience is. And then come up with the best marketing tactics and obviously the best communication points that will resonate at the highest level.
And he talked about it. This was really cool about the diff the, the, the difference between the homeowners who have children and maybe who are empty nesters or never had kids at all. Those are different communications and you have to make sure you have the nuances of all those. Right. And then number seven, this is just what we were talking about, branders.
This is huge. Do not forget about the printed word, printed paper as a key communication vehicle. Those are my seven.
DC: Outstanding, Larry. Outstanding. We have overlaps as we normally do Dr. Z. [00:56:00] This is the part of the program where I make a, an ambitious attempt to connect with the human in front of me. You, Dr.
Z to make an assessment. And just my own view doesn't, doesn't mean it's right. It's just my, my point of view on what is it that this person in front of me, what are they bringing to this world of 7 billion people that is unique to them? And if they don't bring it, we don't get it. They don't bring that gift.
We as humanity fail to get that gift in the way that this person can do it. And so I'm gonna attempt to do that with you, uh, right now. Dr. Z first, you are a professor and an entrepreneur, not a professor or an entrepreneur, but you're a professor and an entrepreneur. You talk to both students and experts.
You don't just talk to students or [00:57:00] experts. You talk to both of them. To Larry's point, you talk about dreaming. And making it real, not dreaming or making it real. In fact, you said there are some that can dream about an idea and they just sit on the couch and continue to muse about it, but it never happens.
You, Dr. Z are a mechanic and a tech entrepreneur. You weren't a mechanic or a tech entrepreneur. You're both. And then finally, Dr. Z, you have talked to us about direct mail and printed, uh, uh, uh, direct mail with printed word and digital. You have an appreciation for both and therefore the theme that emerged pretty quickly.
Dr. Z is, you are an and person, okay? You're an and person. Not, or, [00:58:00] and if I could boil all this down, and Larry's already said. Part of it earlier in the show around question four, if someone asked me, Hey, uh, hey. Hey y'all, you all interviewed, uh, Dr. Zaire during one of your podcasts. You had him on the show.
What do you think makes this guy special? Like, who in what is he? My answer would be, Dr. Z is the old school and new school Polymath King. That is how I would describe you, Dr. Z. And I think that's the gift you've shared with us today in the Brand Nerds and that you've probably been giving as a gift to folks that you've come across for your entire lifetime.
The old school and New school, polymath King.
LT: What do you think? Dr. Z?
Wilson Zehr: Thank you. I appreciate it. No, I think, I think it all sounds [00:59:00] pretty accurate.
LT: Really. Yeah, I think that's a, DC has an incredible, uh, mind overall and then way to summarize folks. And, uh, I, I love that. I think, uh, that really summarizes what, what we talked about today, which is really fun.
Is there anything you picked up, uh, uh, before we leave here, Dr. Z from the conversation we've had that you'd like to share the, with the Brand Nerds before we sign off here?
Wilson Zehr: I did. I don't, I'm not sure if this is earth shattering or not, but I, um, it caused me to think again about, um, failure. I honestly, and, and, and that's, um, that sounds weird.
I know, but it's, it's, no, it's, it's, it's, it's powerful, right? I mean, uh, um, especially as an entrepreneur and even as a, as an academic, they, um, um, Mike Tyson has that famous quote, you know, everybody's got a plan until they get hit in the face,
LT: until they get hit in the mouth. Yeah.
Wilson Zehr: And. [01:00:00] You know, I can couple that with, uh, another famous quote, who is it?
Uh, Edison said, you know, they, he, all the times he tried to make a light bulb and failed maybe a thousand or more times. And somebody asked, why did you keep doing that? I mean, that's a fool's errand, you know, you know that the chances of success are relatively small. And he said, well, no, I, I'm not looking at it that way because every time I failed, I learned another way how not to make an incandescent light bulb.
Mm. Right. Mm. And it, it just turns out that
DC: That's a great one.
Wilson Zehr: Yeah. It just turns out that that failure is often a big part of success. Yeah. And so we have to learn, we have to, a, we have to be, we have to not be afraid to fail. I mean, that's the first thing, right? We need to get in the game, even though that may mean we'll lose, right?
And, but we're gonna do our best to, to bring the tools with us and the training and the knowledge and whatever to be successful. But when we do get, [01:01:00] you know, or knocked down or what we dust ourselves off, figure out what went wrong and we get back in there and do it right next time. And so that, that ability to be resilient, to be, to continue to, to try to learn from our mistakes and to get smarter and to be able to, as you said, bring in the, bring in the knowledge of experts, other people who can help us mm-hmm.
Are all critical to success. So we, you know, that, but fear of failure or the inability to fail often leads to, you know, the inability to be successful. So I, I think that's important.
LT: So clearly you have not had the fear of failure, is what you're saying because. You've had to get through a lot of, uh, of, of fails to get to your wins.
Wilson Zehr: Oh. You know what I mean? That's the thing. I do fear, fear failure. But you, you, you know, just as like, I mean, I coach football. I coach football for, I, I don't know, 10, 12 years or something, [01:02:00] a youth football. Um, and every time you step on a scale, uh, on the field, no matter how much you've trained, no, how much you plan, you're nervous.
You've got butterflies, right? You don't know how this is gonna go, but you need to do it anyway. You need to fight through that. And it turns out that the more that you've prepared, the more that you've trained, the more you know you, your skills and your game, um, not only the less of that uncertainty do you have, but the easier it becomes to fight through it.
I mean, so I, I wouldn't say that, you know, I, I, I mean, I, I've never asked Mike Tyson if he's nervous before a boxing match, but I bet he has sometimes. Mm-hmm.
LT: Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. That's a, wow. That's a great mic drop there, don't you think, Dee? Yes. Yes. So Brand Nerd. Thanks so much for listening to Brand Beats and Bytes, the executive producers of Jeff Shirley, Darryl "DC" Cobbin, Larry Taman, Hailey Cobbin, Jade Tate, and Tom Dioro.
DC: The [01:03:00] pod father.
LT: That is he. And if you do like this podcast, please subscribe and share. And for those on Apple podcast if you are so inclined, we love those excellent reviews. We hope you enjoyed this podcast, and we look forward to next time where we will have more insightful and enlightening talk about marketing.