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"Everyone enjoys people watching. Street photography is just a visual demonstration of people watching."
How I See is the official Leica podcast series dedicated to the art, passion, and philosophy of photography.
Each episode features in-depth conversations between our hosts and inspiring guests like photographers, artists, filmmakers, or other creative minds, exploring what drives their creative vision and how photography shapes the way they see the world.
In today's episode of the Leica Podcast
Everyone enjoys people watching.
Yeah.
Everyone loves being a little bit nosy.
Street photography is just a visual demonstration of people watching.
I still pinch myself now that I'm able to make money doing it.
I think it's crazy that I just kind of just waffle to a camera, and
people watch it. I've realized the more normal stuff I share-
Yeah
... the more people can go, "Oh, yeah, I feel like that, too," or, "Oh, yeah, I saw
something similar to that." Because I'm not taking photography too
seriously, that my photographs, in some way, are
fun. But this was just, yeah, just the hands. They really caught my attention.
And someone has drawn, I don't know if you can see, a little smiley face in the
middle-
Oh, yeah
... where there's tomatoes or something in the picture.
Yeah. If your camera could talk, what would it say about you?
"Can I have a rest, please?"
It'd probably-
Give me a break.
Yeah. Be like, "Just put me down for a second."
Hi, everyone, and welcome to "How I See": the Leica Podcast.
I'm your host, Louise Goldstein, and it's a pleasure to be joined
by Mike Chudley here at the Leica headquarters in Wetzlar,
Germany. Welcome to the podcast, Mike.
It's a pleasure to have you here. Thank you for joining us.
Thank you so much for the invite. This is very special. Yeah. This is exciting.
Firstly, I just wanted to ask you to please introduce yourself.
Let us know a little bit about who you are and what you do.
So, I'm Mike. I make a lot of YouTube videos all about
photography and camera gear, more specifically street photography.
Mm-hmm.
I shoot a lot in London, although I do get to travel a little bit as well, so I'm
very fortunate for that. I've been shooting on Leica for about four
years.
Mm.
Started in the skateboard world.
Obsessed with photography, really. I guess that sums it up.
Good place to be.
Mm.
I
like to ask this question because I always find it really interesting, but where
did photography start for you?
Yeah, skateboarding and BMX.
Mm.
So, when I was 12, my mom bought me my first camera-
Yeah
... for Christmas, and then I immediately ran into the garage
to film myself doing a kickflip or something like that.
And
for me, filming and
taking photographs at the skate park-
Mm
... it was always about the skateboarding and the BMXing.
And then as I grew up a little bit, not that anyone should grow up
completely-
... I fell more in love with the photography side of it.
Mm.
And then I don't really skate or ride BMX much anymore.
But I remember watching each month as a
"Thrasher" magazine cover would come out and reading "Sidewalk
Magazine". It's like a UK skate magazine.
Mm.
And just slowly, over time, becoming obsessed with what the front cover would be-
Yeah
... and the fisheye lenses and diving into the skate culture, skate
photography culture.
Mm.
So yeah. I have skateboarding to thank for a lot of things-
Yeah
... and photography is one of them. Yeah.
Amazing. What were some of your first photographs like?
Probably very bad. I think all of my BMX and skate pictures were
pretty bad. I don't think I got exceptional at it.
Mm-hmm.
And I actually want to pursue a little bit more of that now.
Yeah.
Now I know what I know about photography, I think it'd be cool to go on a skate
trip again, to document that.
Yeah.
But
mostly the skate and BMX photos I took were just of me and my friends having a good
time.
Yeah.
They weren't serious. It was me just playing around-
Yeah
... which I think is important in photography, anyway.
I don't think we should take this too seriously.
Yeah.
Because photography has always been fun for me-
Yeah
... and the skateboarding/BMX world is incredibly fun.
So, if I look at the photographs I was taking when I was 12,
13, 14, 15, I just know that they would be fun.
Yeah.
I don't think they would be very good, but they're fun to look at. Yeah.
For me and my friends-
Yeah
... especially.
Yeah. I was going to say, actually, do you look back at them now
occasionally and have fond memories about those times?
Yeah, definitely. Everything that I learned going into
street photography and stuff-
Mm-hmm
... is just because of what I was doing skating.
Yeah.
So, it's just accidental practice, I think.
I spent 10 years photographing... Well, maybe not that long.
Maybe five or six years photographing-
Mm
... skateboarding and BMX specifically-
Yeah
... that I feel like that was my proving ground.
That was where I learned everything kind of thing.
Yeah.
So then when I went into the normal world of photography- ...
it was a little bit more straightforward, I think.
Yeah.
Sports photography, generally, I think is one of the hardest-
Yeah
... styles to master.
So thankfully, I just learned loads from doing it with skateboarding.
Yeah. Absolutely. And
transitioning into street photography, was that something that
came naturally to you?
Yeah, I didn't even think about it.
Yeah.
Because I feel like when you're out on the street skating and having a camera with
me, being anywhere, any public space with my skateboard and my
camera bag-
Mm
... then when I'd go outside without the skateboard and just my camera bag, it felt
totally normal to have my camera around all the time.
Yeah.
And that's something I love about street and documentary and travel
photography, just everyday photography.
You have to have a camera on you all the time, and I just got used to it because I
was skating all the time as well. So, it just-
Yeah
... naturally was an easy transition for me to start taking street photos as well.
Yeah. Did you find that your sidekick became your camera
rather than your skateboard after a certain amount of time?
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I
still spot skate spots when I'm out.
There's a few stair sets knocking around here and a couple of ledges.
But now those spider senses-
Yeah
... as you would say, transition into spotting photograph opportunities.
Yeah.
So, when you're out on the street looking for stuff, it used to be looking for
skate spots, but now it's looking for moments, right?
Yeah.
So, it's a similar sort of skill set, really.
Yeah. Love that.
Your work crosses from behind the camera
as a photographer to in front of the camera through YouTube.
When did you have the idea to start making videos and
start uploading them to YouTube?
So, it was around COVID when I first started making photography
videos on YouTube.
Yeah.
But I feel like since I first filmed that kickflip that I did in the
garage when I was 13 or whatever,
that probably was on YouTube at some point.
Yeah.
A hundred channels over the years from-
Yeah
... Call of Duty videos to me and my friends at the skate park,
to me editing, I don't know, a Photoshop
tutorial or something.
Yeah.
I think I've tried at most YouTube videos- ... as a teenager growing up.
But then I think COVID and the photography stuff, I probably started taking a
little bit more seriously.
So I feel like as much as I've been into photography over the
years, I've been understanding YouTube alongside as
well.
Mm.
So video and photo is a big part of my world.
Even though I share my photography, the means of me
sharing it is actually via video-
Yeah
... via YouTube. So,
yeah. I'm thankful that I've over the years learned how to make a video or two as
well.
Yeah. And did that early,
I guess, knowledge of filmmaking, where did that
come from? Was that something that also then naturally
transitioned from making skateboard videos?
Yeah, I think in the skate world, photography and videos
are a huge part of the culture.
Yeah.
So even
J*****s was- ... super important and
impactful for me growing up. I thought it was the coolest thing.
So then when I would go to the skate park with my friends, we were probably no
doubt inspired by Bam-
Yeah
... and the J*****s crew. So my videos were nowhere near like that.
But-
... the idea of filming everything was just kind of normal.
Yeah.
Which again, I'm thankful for because now when I make YouTube videos, I don't
really overthink it too much-
Yeah
... because I'm used to being on camera.
So,
yeah. I think the
J*****s being an inspiration, the skateboard culture being an inspiration
meant that uploading YouTube videos and being on this side of the camera wasn't-
Yeah.
I didn't think about it too much. It's not super natural, but
I'm definitely more comfortable than, I'd say, if I never did the
skateboard stuff.
Yeah. For sure.
I'm really interested as well in the
idea
of starting to create videos about cameras,
about photography, and that transitioning into a
career. Did you ever think that that was possible, or
was it something you're aware of?
I think the photo YouTube stuff started just because I was watching
a lot of it. So as I was learning photography a little bit more seriously, I was
just watching loads of YouTube stuff.
Mm.
So I definitely didn't upload my first video thinking, "Oh, I'm going to make some
money out of this." I just enjoyed making videos.
Yeah.
And I think that's probably the most important bit.
I think if you start making YouTube videos thinking that you're just going to make
loads of money,
you will probably get very tired of it very quickly.
Yeah.
I still pinch myself now that I'm able to make money doing it.
I think it's crazy that I just kind of just waffle to a camera and-
... people watch it.
But now as the years have gone on, I do have to consider
things a little bit more seriously.
Yeah.
But again, I try not to take it too seriously.
Yeah.
I try to just be me, and whatever I'm interested in at the time, I will make a
video about it.
Yeah.
But talking about camera gears, people watch it.
Yeah.
If anyone's buying a new camera, they want to watch a video about it, or if they've
just bought a new camera, they want to watch a video about it.
So I think when I first uploaded my first camera review, it
would've been like surprised. "Oh, this actually gets views."
Yeah.
I didn't maybe know what I was doing, but
over the years, you start understanding what works, what doesn't work.
Yeah.
And again, I try not to take it too seriously, so.
Yeah.
I definitely didn't think I'd be making money from it when I first started. No way.
Yeah.
Your videos feature tech heavily, of course,
but you also focus on what inspires you, your
approach and experience.
Do you find this way of sharing comes naturally to
you, so the full circle rather than just
one side of things?
I think I would definitely run out of things to say if it was just gear
related.
Yeah.
Because reading a spec sheet isn't that exciting.
Now, there is some novelty in new camera gear coming out, and it is fun to talk
about, and I'm as much of a nerd as the next person.
Especially, we've been here at the Leica HQ and looking- ...
at all the camera gear and the museum and the archive, it's just fascinating stuff.
But I think the thing that is most important is the process, and it's
almost cliché to say it's the journey, not the destination.
It's a horrible thing to just say that, but it really
is.
Mm.
And
I said this earlier, photography is supposed to be fun.
And no one picks up a camera for the first time
in a serious manner. No one gets into photography because it's a business
decision.
Yeah.
People get into something like this to express themselves, to have fun, to
just play around, and that's my biggest thought process
when I'm shooting. I won't do anything photography related if I'm
not going to enjoy it.
Yeah.
So I'm always thinking about the process.
Yeah.
Because I'm always thinking about the process and trying to enjoy myself, I feel
like I can share that as well, and other people can relate in some
way.
Yeah.
So the thoughts behind why you're taking pictures
is more important than the picture-
Yeah
... I think. It's just the picture is the visual thing that explains what
you were doing.
Yeah.
It's just the end result. Without the end result, it wouldn't make sense, but
I think photography has been a wonderful outlet of just internal
thoughts and things I enjoy in the world.
Mm.
And then photography becomes the thing to share it.
Yeah.
Like skateboarding or BMX, if something happens at the skate park or down a
stair set, or
if something truly amazing happens, there's probably only six or seven people there
that see it. But once it-
Yeah
... becomes a photograph, you can share it with the world.
So the photograph is amazing because it reaches more people.
Yeah.
But you only took the photograph because the trick was the thing was good, the
moment was interesting-
Yeah
... whatever that moment is. So, um I'm just forever chasing
those moments, the enjoyment of it-
Yeah
... which again, is the process.
Yeah. I think it's great that you talk openly and
candidly about your journey with photography-
Yeah
... your experiences.
Do you find that that resonates with people?
I think I forget this as well sometimes, that people can
relate to individuals and their experiences
without those experiences and stories being super dramatic, and
they don't have to be some one in a million thing.
Like, "I just climbed Mount Everest and took this photograph of this wild animal."
Yeah, that stuff's amazing, but that's not everybody day to day.
Yeah.
I think
I've realized the more normal stuff I share-
Yeah
... the more people can go, "Oh, yeah, I feel like that too," or, "Oh, yeah, I
saw something similar to that." And I feel like
toning things down a bit, on the internet especially,
works. People don't care for the most
fast-paced, dramatic, clickbait-type behavior.
Yeah.
That works in some senses, for sure, but I think the more
normal I've been online-
Yeah
... it seems to be working. So clearly, people just want to
relate to other normal people.
Yeah.
Yeah. I wouldn't do this. I wouldn't try and make the most
dramatic, exciting YouTube video every week, because you just get burnt out by it.
Yeah.
And photography for me is not that anyway.
It's just walking around in London.
Yeah.
So, I just want to keep it like that, really.
Yeah. And do you find the
most ordinary
setup and situation, like street photography, very
simple in its concept-
Yeah
... is something that you
enjoy and can take great photographs within that
environment?
I think it makes the really unique pictures more
impressive and more-
Yeah
... joyful. And it makes the everyday moments of
whatever you're up to just a little bit more special.
Yeah.
So I was down in Wetzlar earlier, just exploring and wandering myself,
and I was trying to work out this picture, as I was telling you over lunch.
Yeah.
And I was expecting a person to walk through.
And the picture's not-- It's okay. It is what it is.
I don't know yet until I see it. But a dog walked through instead, and that
just made me smile. And I think the picture is better with the dog than it would've
been with a person. And all I was doing was wandering
around this town that I've never been before, and now I'm smiling.
Yeah.
And now I've just created this moment of, "That was fun."
Yeah.
And if I didn't have my camera with me, and if I wasn't doing that, I would've just
been walking around cold.
Yeah.
I would've just been like
everybody else that doesn't do photography.
They just go somewhere to do something, or it's an endless to-do
list of life. But photography means that I'm thinking a little bit
differently or appreciating things a little bit more or-
Yeah
...
I forgot what your question was, but-
No, that answered it. Don't worry.
I think it kind of leads into my next question,
which is: How has your approach to content creation changed over
the years?
I think I definitely used to think it had to be impressive, for sure.
So I would've, during COVID and the few years after
that, I was probably trying to make videos that I knew people were excited about.
Yeah.
So new camera is obviously, like any new camera, is something quite novelty and
exciting in a way. But I think nowadays, like I kind of
referred to, I think just normal everyday thoughts and feelings
tend to be relatable as well.
Obviously, a new lens will get more views than just me waffling to a
camera about something. But
you can't talk about new lenses every day, because there's not a new lens every
day.
Yeah.
So, I've definitely got used to the more normal, mundane
sort-
Yeah
... of language. But I try and keep it light and entertaining, of
course.
Yeah.
But I try not to overthink the content creation stuff.
Yeah.
Because it's just like with the photography, I want to enjoy it, and I'm not going
to do anything that means-
Yeah
... "Oh, this is a drag." I don't want to feel like that.
I don't want to turn it into a horrible day job that people hate
doing every day. I want it to be exciting, and I want to be pumped up about what
I'm making. So, I try and make that a priority.
Yeah. And give someone else a little bit of
insight, but also a separation to maybe what they're
doing day to day-
Mm
... and can kind of have a moment to switch off and-
Mm
... enjoy the process.
I think the biggest compliment I get from people is when they say things like,
"Oh, yeah, I had your video on in the background." Like, "I just put your
video on while I was making dinner."
Yeah.
Because I love that it's a good enough vibe, whatever that vibe is,
for you to just listen to me chatting about whatever I'm chatting about.
And that means my viewers are not taking it too seriously as well.
Yeah.
And I like that. It's like we're hanging out.
Yeah.
It's like the best compliment is that people feel like they know me and we've never
met.
Yeah.
And that's so cool that YouTube can do that.
Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
Your book, "Learning to See," pivoting slightly-
... references the idea that you're still learning, still figuring things out.
Do you think that this still rings true today, and
for you generally?
Yeah, definitely. That was quite a strategic play for the title there-
Yeah
... because it
means there's no direct
statement of anything that's established.
It's all just
here or there-
Yeah
... which feels like photography every month is I'm learning
something new or seeing something different.
So when I titled the book "Learning to See," that's really how I felt.
That
book was the first
three years of street photography-
Mm
... in London, and a little bit of travel as well.
So, none of the pictures are groundbreaking.
I don't think they're the best things ever, but I thought it would be cool to go
through the process of learning how to make a book, dive into that, understand the
process a little bit more. And I'm even more appreciative of books now because I
made one.
Yeah.
It's just a fun thing to do.
Yeah.
Back to enjoying it again. Making the book was super fun.
But-
I'm
pleased I made that then, so then I have a milestone-
Yeah
... of in 25 years.
Yeah.
If I didn't make it, maybe I'd never make one.
So I'm pleased I did, and I got it out the way, and I got-
Yeah
... stuck in with it.
And then maybe every five years I can make one or-
Yeah
... whatever. I've not really thought about it too much. But- ...
learning to see is exactly what I was thinking-
Yeah
... when I put the photos together.
Looking at the idea of where that book came
from, how did the book come about?
Putting it together?
Yeah. Where did that process come from, and where did the
idea start?
I think as I was getting more and more into street photography, I was
also-
Yeah
... getting more and more into collecting street photography books.
And
anyone that's gone down that rabbit hole- ... it is infinite, and it never ends.
And I think at the same time as me being just totally
obsessed with street photography-
Mm
... I then was enjoying all these different books at the same time, and I just
wanted to marry that-
Yeah
... enjoyment of both mediums, actually going out and shooting and then enjoying
them at home. And then
I picked up a few zines. A few friends were making little bits and bobs.
Yeah.
And I think just being surrounded by other people that are interested in it, and I
just thought, "I could give this a go."
One of my friends in Southend in Essex explained how
they made a book.
Mm-hmm.
Didn't seem that intimidating when he said it to me.
He was like, "Oh, yeah, I made this." I was like, "That's cool.
Maybe I should give it a go," not realizing that it would be a year later I'd be
like-
Yeah
... "Oh, wow, okay. This is really something."
But yeah, like I said, I'm pleased I went through that process of figuring it out.
And I enjoy books even more now-
Yeah
... because I know how detailed and nuanced and complicated they are to make, but-
Yeah
... I didn't think about it too much going into it, which I think is
why I made it. And if I thought about it too much-
... I don't think I would've made it, if that makes sense.
A bit of
ignorance is bliss-
Yeah
... I think is a huge part of most things that get created.
Yeah. Not knowing too much is probably a good thing.
Yeah. Absolutely.
What was the experience like bringing your images from the
digital world into printed form?
That was one of the most fun parts-
Mm
... because a lot of people
say they don't like sequencing, it can get complicated-
Yeah
... and it's a minefield. It really is.
But when I printed
200 of my favorite images and made them six by fours,
like little postcard size-
Yeah
... and I laid them out in my living room, and then I just naturally paired images
together if the colors looked similar, or if the contrast was similar, or
if subject matters were kind of closely related.
And I remember just spending a few hours one Saturday afternoon with all my
photographs all over, and I tried my best to put them all together in
whatever form that looked like,
and just getting overwhelmed by, "Oh, this is
going to take forever."
Yeah.
And the photographs laid around for a few days.
But that made me really enjoy the pictures even more.
Yeah.
And I think
maybe I got a little bit too biased with the select
because when I then showed other people what I'd selected, which was
really, really useful, they then were like, "Nope, get rid of that.
Nope, get rid of that."
Yeah.
"This doesn't work with that. This is too similar to that." And it's like it
brought me out of it again.
Yeah.
So you go from really diving into your own work maybe a little bit too
much-
Mm
... and then you get another third perspective again, seeing them physically
and not just on screens. So there's a whole mix of emotions doing it.
Yeah.
But
seeing them physically, selecting my favorites, and then showing some friends, and
then them selecting their favorites-
Yeah
... was super interesting, yeah.
Was it challenging to choose a final edit?
You mentioned 200 photographs and then getting them down
probably to 30, 40.
I think it was between 40 and 50.
Something like-- 40, 50. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, it was fun. But
I had to start asking myself questions that I didn't consider.
And-
Yeah
...
one of the most interesting things was finding out why one of my
good friends, that I respected their opinion.
I asked-
Yeah
... about five or six people that I like their taste.
I think they-
Yeah
... have good knowledge and taste of photography.
And sometimes they completely disagreed with why I had a picture there.
They would say it was too similar to the previous picture.
But then that also reestablished why
I liked it. I was like-
Yeah
... "No, no, no. I think this because..." And it made me explain myself-
Mm
... instead of it just being on a whim.
Yeah.
But it works both ways, where they would say they really like something because of
a reason, and then I'd say, "Oh, that wasn't the intention.
I don't like it because of that." And then I'd reconsider if I should keep it or
not.
Yeah.
So,
having that conversation with somebody and going-
Yeah
... through that process really, really helped.
And
if I started with the 200 images that I printed, I maybe would've got it down
to 100, just like, "Yeah, I think they're all all right." "None of them are
amazing, but I think they're cool, whatever." But then after speaking to my
friends, I realized that maybe 40 of them were actually okay.
Yeah.
Yeah. And now if I was to do it tomorrow,
I think I'd have six pictures that I like after real- Your
taste changes, and things you like and things you don't like changes over
time, and-
Yeah
... it's a whirlwind. It really is, yeah.
Yeah. What photography or photographers inspire
you?
I've seen you look at photo books on your channel as
well as the tech side of things, and you mentioned that's
become something that you like to look at-
Yeah
... and I guess collect in some ways.
So I think the first photo book that I
was truly,
"Whoa, I didn't know this was possible," was Matt Stuart's "All That
Life Can Afford".
Mm.
Matt Stuart's first episode of the podcast was amazing.
I think Matt is a fantastic guy. And his photographs of London really
opened my mind to what was possible.
Yeah.
So I'd seen
documentary style street photographs-
Yeah
... and fine art street photographs-
Yeah
... and things that look nice. But when I saw Matt's
juxtapositions and humor-
Yeah
... in street, I thought, "Oh, that's possible."
So definitely Matt's "All That Life Can Afford" is one of my all-time favorites.
But then on a slightly more documentary note, Paul Graham's "A1",
the "Great North Road" book, is such a cool project of the
A1 in England.
Yeah.
And I can relate a little bit to that because when I moved from Lincolnshire down
to Essex, I was taking the A1, so
every other weekend, I was traveling up and down-
Yeah
... as I was moving and things. And I know that road, and it's not that
interesting. And then when I saw Paul Graham's "A1" book, I was like,
"Wow." This was the late '80s or early '90s or something.
Yeah.
And that was fascinating, and then I start realizing at that point that
photo projects exist, and then you start diving into specific-
Mm
... collections of work and collections of a bunch of photographers.
And then I think even just "Street Photography Now"
and-
Yeah
... those wider collections of street photography books are super fun.
But the photo book world is infinite.
Yeah.
And there's a lot of amazing work out there.
But I guess away from just books generally, I think Martin
Parr, for example-
Yeah
... one of the greatest photographers.
Huge inspiration for-
Yeah
... maybe just British photography as well, but-
Yeah
...
there's so much amazing work out there.
I could just end- list loads and loads of photographers.
But Elliot Erwitt as well is one of my favorites, yeah.
Yeah. There's a certain level of maybe
humor within photography that you
like or are interested in, and I think that
translates a little bit into your work.
Yeah.
Would you say that's maybe a small theme within what you
see and what you're looking at?
I like to think that because I'm not taking photography too
seriously-
Yeah
... that my photographs
in some way are fun. Now, I might also take serious
pictures as well.
Yeah.
And I have done. But
I think when I go out to enjoy photography, I also want to enjoy the
pictures I'm taking. So the things I'm looking for are never
that serious, and the things I'm enjoying as a result of the pictures-
Mm
... I realize actually this is
quite light-
Mm
... and chill and-
Yeah
...
I don't think any of my work is super dramatic-
Yeah
... if that makes sense. And I know some people
do take photography seriously, and they want all their photographs to have
amazing stories, and they want their photographs to be dramatic and intense.
But-
Yeah
... that's not photography for me.
So I want to keep it light, I think, is a good way to describe it.
Yeah.
And I really enjoy walking around London.
I love the city, so I want to enjoy the pictures I take as well.
Yeah.
I don't want to make it too gritty or-
Yeah
... intense in that way. I want to keep it colorful and light, so.
Yeah. Individual to you.
Mm.
Totally. I think this would be a great moment to look
at some of your work.
So we have a segment called Unframed where I've
asked you to submit two photographs to me
that I have no context of. So I
will take a look at them and then ask you to give me the full
story behind them. So this first image
is BMX, and it's someone
literally in the air
on a bike, on a bridge, river in the
background, or water in the background, skyline
of trees in the background. Could you tell me a little bit more about this
photograph?
So this is
one of my good friends, Ben Towell, and I grew up with him in the BMX world
and-
Yeah
... in the skate world. We would spend most days together skateboarding and BMXing,
and he was probably one of my main test subjects for photography.
I think I have thousands of photographs of Ben.
This was the Humber Bridge.
Mm.
This is the crossing between Hull and North Lincolnshire.
Yeah.
There's that little crack in the middle of the country on the east coast.
Yeah.
That's the Humber Bridge.
We got up at 4:00 a.m. to do this. I think I only just passed
my driving license, so I was able to drive.
Yeah.
I only just passed my driving test.
Yeah.
So I was able to drive there at 4:00 a.m.
Anyone that knows the Humber Bridge, it's super busy all the time.
So we had to get up at 4:00 a.m. when there was no traffic.
Wow.
And Ben's doing a tail whip. So I have no idea how he
thought of this picture. Maybe just because the Humber Bridge is quite iconic up
north in that way.
Yeah.
And we thought him doing a hop whip would be fun.
But the reason I've shown you it here is I didn't know
anything about camera settings at this point still.
I think I only just realized after, "Why is his wheel blurry?" Like-
... "Oh, that's because the shutter speed's too slow."
Yeah.
But it reminds me how much fun we had-
Yeah
... trying to think of photo opportunities.
Whereas before this point, I was always interested in just the tricks.
Yeah.
But at this point, I wanted to try and get a good-- I was like, "I want to get an
interesting picture."
Yeah.
And that was the first time I think I considered the photography aspect-
Yeah
... more than I considered-- I didn't care for what trick he was doing.
I just wanted to get up at 4:00 a.m. and go to the bridge and take a picture.
Yeah.
So this is like a milestone for me when I was like, "Oh, the
process of photography is-
Amazing
... more enjoyable than the tricks that we're doing-
Yeah
... in a way." Yeah.
And actually, I didn't even realize this.
I have no idea how, but there is literally no traffic on
this road and bridge. It's literally just one truck in the
background.
Yeah.
And that's it.
Which was super hard for us to do. I think that's why we got up so early to do it.
Yeah.
So it was like the first time I ever went on a photography mission-
Yeah
... to go and achieve something.
Yeah. Amazing. Great photograph.
We have a second photograph here, which is
one of those serendipitous kind of moments,
and it's multiple people, I guess,
pointing or using their hands to point in some
way. And in the background there is
A image of hands pointing, maybe it's an advert or
something like that, or an image from a store.
And this just works really beautifully all together.
Beautiful sunlight, different things going on. Tell me about this photograph.
So unlike the previous photo we just looked at, which I don't think is that
good of an image. I think I've shown you it just because it's such a good memory
for me.
Yeah.
This one I am pleased with.
Yeah.
I think when I took this, I didn't know I had this until later
when I looked at what I had on the SD card. But this was in Lisbon.
I love the hands in the background because-
Yeah
... there's still no branding on it.
Yeah. That's the bizarre thing.
I can't tell you now what it was for.
And most things-
If anyone can tell us-
Yeah
... let us know.
Most things in the street have an ugly logo on it somewhere.
Yeah.
A title of some kind.
Yeah.
But this was just, yeah, just the hands. They really caught my attention.
And someone has drawn, I don't know if you can see, a little smiley face in the
middle-
Oh, yeah
... where there's tomatoes or something in the picture.
Yeah.
So I think the smiley face caught my attention, and then I stood
there with the Q2 for 45 minutes thinking in
my mind, "I need something hand related."
Yeah.
I think I got a frame of someone's hand just in the left, and then I got two
people pointing, and I thought maybe three people pointing would be good.
And then one thing leads to another.
45 minutes later, I've 500 photos later, and
then I realize-- I think I walked away not happy.
I was like, "I don't think I have anything here. This was too complicated.
This was too difficult."
I say not happy, I was still enjoying myself.
Yeah.
But I was like, "Nah, never mind. Moving on." And then I looked at my laptop,
looked in Lightroom, and I was like, "Ah.
I think this is the one."
Yeah.
And I think still today, and that was four years ago or three years ago-
Yeah
... it's still one of my favorite pictures.
Yeah. It's great. It's really playful, but the
composition is just wonderful. So, great photograph.
There's a certain level of storytelling from your photographs,
especially because of the street photography
element to them. What do the stories from your
photographs tell you about the world?
So,
when you take that photograph, take it back to your computer,
is there anything you kind of see, and you feel like you're learning
something about people or places?
Yeah, that's a great question. I don't think I've
thought about it too much, but there's a
wonderful word or description called sonder, and
it's the description or the idea that other people are also
living infinitely complex lives as you are.
Whereas you feel like you're the main character of your own life, but that's
happening everywhere. Everyone thinks that they're the main character.
And photography, street photography is a visual example
of sonder, of everybody's living their own life-
Yeah
... with their own joys and lows and wonderful things happening and not so
wonderful things happening. And I think the best way when I talk
about street photography to non-photographers is that everyone enjoys people
watching.
Yeah.
Everyone loves being a little bit nosy or understanding, "Oh, what's
happening over there?"
Street photography is just a visual demonstration of people watching.
Yeah.
And until you really look at great street work
from the greats that have been before us, you realize that
so much happens on the street-
Yeah
... that it's infinite. You can't even imagine what's possible.
Yeah.
And especially in the world of AI with us today.
AI can't actually imagine the possibilities.
Yeah.
It requires real life to go out there and see the
magic and the
wit and the coincidences and the absolute one in a million
things that just happen right in front of you.
Yeah.
And if you're not a photographer and you're not seeing it, then you just
don't appreciate it.
Yeah.
And
after a day of photography sometimes, if I've taken 1,000 pictures from a full
day in London, I go through the catalog afterwards and I'm like, "Wow,
life is complex."
Yeah.
There's some quite sad things in here, some little awkward things
in here, and there's some really joyful things in here.
And you do that over 10 years-
Yeah
...
I think I've become so much more grateful and appreciative of everything-
Yeah
... because I'm seeing it all. I'm watching it all unfold.
Yeah.
And it also gets you out of your own head a little bit, I think.
Yeah.
It's easy to go out in London and walk the same streets with your
head down and go from one thing to another, and yeah, you
might have a nice lunch, but then it's raining outside and you're like, "Ah." Life
is life, but
doing life with street photography alongside is just-
Yeah
... infinitely more interesting.
Yeah.
And that's why people watching street photography, I
think everyone can enjoy people watching to some extent.
Yeah.
So I feel like street photography is just that. It's just people watching.
With a camera.
Yeah.
How did you build up the courage to take
photographs of people and go out onto the street
without fear? Maybe there's still fear there in some way.
I think I'm still aware that I'm not completely
comfortable doing it. I'm still aware that I'm doing something-
Mm
... that is a little bit different.
But part of me likes that a little bit, that I'm out of my
comfort zone to some extent.
But I think being on the street skateboarding, and sometimes when you're on a
skateboard, you're in places you shouldn't be.
And I think I just got used to
being aware of that-
Yeah
... I think, and
I'm lucky that in London especially, people are too busy.
No one really questions it too much.
I've never had a negative interaction, for example.
Yeah.
Good body language, show respect, have a smile on your face.
Yeah.
It goes a long way. And the interactions that I do have with people always end up
being pretty cool anyway.
Yeah.
But I guess it's
kind of what I was saying earlier, not overthinking it too much.
Yeah.
If you do overthink it too much
It's easy to get in your own head, and then that might stop you from taking
pictures.
Mm.
So yeah, there are days where I'm like, "Ah, feeling a bit introverted right now.
I don't really want to take that picture," and I don't.
Yeah.
I try and keep it enjoyable.
Yeah.
Some days I'm feeling super extroverted and chat to everyone and take photographs
of everyone, and some days are different.
So just being aware of that and understanding how you're feeling and leaning into
it a little bit.
Yeah, for sure.
Leica cameras obviously feature heavily in your work,
your reviews-
Yeah
... you're
walking and talking-
Mm
... with your camera, and we have two of them here,
or your two Leicas here today.
What was your first experience with Leica?
So I owned the Q2 for a year, which was-
Mm
... is still a wonderful camera.
But my very first experience was one of my friends, Dan
Baker, fantastic street photographer in Cleethorpes in England.
He just bought the M11, and I spent the day with him shooting along the
seaside, and I just held his M11 ...
and used the focus and looked through the rangefinder, and I was like,
"Wow, I didn't know a camera could feel like that."
Yeah.
And then that was when I realized. I was like, "Okay, I'm in here, aren't I?
I can't ignore that feeling."
So then I got the Q2, I
feel like the Q is an excellent entry system into-
Yeah
... the world of Leica. And then, yeah, the M11-P, when that came out, I picked
that up. Also got the MP as well now.
Yeah.
And honestly, how many times do I need to say I want to enjoy
photography, and it's all about enjoying it and the process-
Mm
... and the experience of using a Leica really is-
Yeah
... the best, or the very best. So,
it's funny now, we all love camera gear, right?
If you're a camera tech nerd-
Yeah
... you're interested. But when I use the M11 or the MP, I don't
know what you could do to make that a
better experience. They're truly-
Yeah
... just fantastic. I'm not just saying that because I'm sat here.
I'm like, "You have to say that." I'm just kidding.
Yeah, they really are the best things to hold and use, and that mechanical
feeling and-
Yeah
... it's very tactile. Yeah, it's a joy.
Yeah, incredible.
You hosted a Leica Academy workshop in Vienna.
What was this teaching experience like?
Yeah, that was super fun. Incredibly grateful I had that
opportunity. I tried to condense
and bring all of my YouTube stuff that I've taught and try
and pull out the insights and highlights that I think are worth sharing in person,
some of the more practical ideas as well.
Yeah.
But the group that I was with in Vienna, it was like we were just hanging out for a
few days, shooting some street stuff.
Yeah.
Again, I try not to overthink it too much.
Everyone there felt like they knew me anyway-
Yeah
... so I'm super lucky that the people who watch my videos are just so cool and-
Yeah
... yeah, we had a great time. Yeah.
Yeah. In line with that, travel must be a big part of your
work. Is there a place or a country that you love to
photograph?
It can be London as well-
Yeah
... and the UK.
I'm
just going to say the UK because every time I leave the country,
it's amazing to travel and see the world.
Every time I come back to the UK, I'm pleased.
Mm.
And that's rare, I think, for an English person to be like, "Yeah, our country's
so good."
And every place has its problems, and it's good, and it's bad.
But,
I feel eternally grateful to have been born in that country,
and the opportunities and how I live my life now is because of what that
country's had to offer, I think, and my own doings-
Yeah
... for example. But I think England has such
interesting culture, and the people are amazing, and if I could
only photograph one place forever, it would be the UK.
Yeah.
I want to travel to Scotland a little bit more.
I definitely want to go to Ireland a little bit more.
But
yeah, England and the UK is infinitely interesting.
So-
Yeah
... I'm just going to say. It's very biased, I know, because I'm English, but-
No, I think that's fine
... I don't mind being a little bit proud and rooting for my own country a little
bit. Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. You have to.
From that, what do you look out for when you're
photographing? So obviously you mentioned
people and places in the UK. Not just the
UK obviously, but in general, what are you looking out for?
I think a really obvious simple answer would be
contrast.
Yeah.
So that covers a lot, right? So contrast in emotions, people's
expressions-
Yeah
... contrast in people's movements, things that
just break that pattern of normal.
So if you look at the street, it's typically quite boring.
Any street is just the usual street activities.
Mm.
But as soon as something happens or something contrasts that
normal or normality-
Yeah
... then there's a picture. So whether that is a sea of gray-
Mm-hmm
... and then somebody in red.
Yeah.
That's an obvious one to describe.
Or light and shadow is such an easy focal point to
be interested in. So when I'm looking at the street or if I'm looking anywhere I'm
traveling, it's for the thing that looks less normal.
And it doesn't have to be groundbreaking or dramatic or intense.
Yeah.
It can just be something that stands out, like when we looked at the picture of the
hands.
Yeah.
That high street in Lisbon was a very normal-looking high street, but the hands
were just slightly different-
Yeah
... just slightly more interesting.
So anything that
stands out for any reason, but that's almost impossible to describe.
That's why I say-
No
... contrast, because contrast is a thing that stands out a little bit more.
And I think when we look at photographs, our eyes are drawn.
I think our eyes are drawn to two things.
It's other people, because human beings look at other human beings, and
contrast, whether that's contrast in color or contrast in light or-
Yeah
... shape or whatever it might be. But the thing about street photography is
you can't describe what it might be.
Yeah.
So in my mind, when I think about it now, it's probably color and
light,
and then any moment that stands out from a regular-looking street.
Yeah. With the image of the hands that we referenced
earlier,
you mentioned talking about staying in one spot,
photographing prolifically-
Yeah
... maybe in one spot and then moving on.
Is that something that you do regularly,
stay in one place-
Yeah
... photograph, and then see what happens?
Yeah, I try and have a mix of both, of just constantly walking and enjoying
the sights.
But if I have a good feeling about something, then yeah.
Yeah.
The one with the hands, for example, was interesting enough
where I was like, "I'm going to give this time and space-
Yeah
... to try and figure this out."
I have less fun doing that because you're seeing less of the city.
Yeah.
Like, we're in Lisbon, for example.
I want to see as much as possible, so I think I would prefer to keep moving, but at
the same time,
I have a good feeling about something-
Yeah
... it's just a gut feeling. I don't know.
But a mix of both. I think that's the longest I might have spent-
Yeah
... in a spot. It's definitely not gone more than 45 minutes.
But I might hover around for five or 10 minutes if I see something that has
potential, for example.
Yeah. How does your own community keep
you inspired? Obviously, you have your
community on social media and also, I guess, the
wider photographic community.
Is there certain
influences that keep you inspired from each?
I think the online world is an infinite amount of
inspiration, but it-
Yeah
... borderlines the
consuming too much.
Yeah.
And then it can get a little bit overwhelming.
So, like any of us, I try and not go on my phone as much as I
probably am.
But books is huge.
Yeah.
And sharing books with friends has been a huge thing, and sharing
ideas and recommendations with people is great.
Definitely the people I hang around with and shoot with, that matters a lot.
I think there might have been periods or months at a time where I might
not be enjoying it as much, and you slow down the amount that you're taking
pictures.
Yeah.
But then you're reminded, like, "Oh, one of my best friends had a really good day
in the city," and I'm reminded how fun it could be, for example, and then that joy
is brought back. So definitely the physical world.
Books, huge inspiration. The online world is amazing.
Obviously, I wouldn't be making the videos and stuff I'm making now if I didn't see
other people also doing it. So huge credit to things like
Instagram. I know it is such an easy thing to hate.
But without Instagram, I wouldn't be chatting to as many people.
I wouldn't be connecting with as many people.
Yeah.
So maybe I'm just being this too positive English guy, but Instagram's
great. YouTube's great. It's all fantastic that it exists.
And then photo books are probably the biggest, I think.
Yeah.
But I have a lot of good friends that are photographers, so that keeps me happy as
well, keeps me going.
Yeah. And you also have the opportunity to reach out and
interact with people who are watching
your videos-
Right
... or consuming your content in some way, whether that's on Instagram or YouTube.
Yeah, it's like I have
thousands of friends online.
Yeah.
And it sounds really cheesy to say it like that.
But when I make a video and then read the comments section, I get to then
see what other people's perception of my thinking was.
Yeah.
And that makes me think of even more things, and
it all feeds itself in a way.
Yeah.
That's why you can't take it too seriously, because if I did take it too seriously,
all the comments online could get to you a little bit.
Yeah.
But I know I'm not taking it too seriously, so I'm pretty chilled out about it.
Yeah.
But yeah, the online community is huge.
I
can't believe the videos I've made have reached the amount of
people it's reached.
Yeah.
And it's wild to think about it, so I don't want to think about it too much because
it's kind of crazy.
Bit scary.
Yeah.
What do you think the key to keep enjoying what you do
is?
Understanding
where your own two feet are at any one time-
Mm
... and just being present with it.
I think I'm lucky being in England and getting to visit London all the time, and
where I live is fantastic, so I'm not trying to escape
anything.
I read a book five, six years ago, seven, eight years ago, called "The Power of
Now" by Eckhart Tolle, and that book-
Mm
... really changed my perspective on
what's happening around you. And essentially,
the past isn't real. There's no point in thinking about it.
The future also isn't real because it's not happened yet.
Mm.
And the only thing that exists is where we are right now.
I don't know if that sounds really obvious to say it like that, but this book
articulates it. I need to make a video about this, I think, but-
Yeah
... this book articulates the present moment, and that present
moment is so aligned with photography because-
Yeah
... you really are capturing a moment.
So enjoying photography is easy when I know how lucky
I am and how grateful I am to be where I am.
So when I go out in London, all I have to do is just appreciate being
in London.
Yeah.
And photography's fun.
Yeah.
I guess it's just personal perspective, just being
grateful-
Yeah
... keeps me pretty happy.
I'm interested to know whether these experiences
that have come from photography, like teaching or
creating a book, is something you might want to do
again in the future. I know you said do a book every five years,
obviously passing comment.
Probably not, yeah.
Yeah. But is it something you think about
doing more of?
Yeah, definitely. I want to take as many pictures as I can as I go about
my life, but I think doing things with the pictures is also important-
Yeah
... and enjoying the result as well.
I think a book, making zines,
prints, there's so much more in the world of photography-
Mm
... I want to learn and understand.
And being here at the Leica HQ, diving into the darkroom was-
Yeah
... just like real-life magic. That was fascinating.
I still feel like I'm so early at
this in my life.
Mm.
I don't have any statements or
anything correct to say. I'm just experiencing it and then sharing it on
YouTube, for example.
Yeah.
There's an infinite amount of things I want to do in the photography world.
And if teaching it to people that are interested is one of those things,
great. If that means more physical work out there, great.
But I'll just take it all as it comes.
Yeah.
I don't want to
stress about it too much.
Yeah.
Just want to enjoy taking pictures.
Yeah.
Think it's a great attitude. How do you continue to
evolve as a photographer, on that note?
It's a great question. How do you continue to evolve as a photographer?
I don't know, actually. I think continuing to have
the right people around you-
Yeah
... and also taking inspiration from work that's been before.
Yeah.
I keep mentioning photo books, but without seeing what's possible,
like if I didn't see Matt Stuart's "All That Life Can Afford" book, I wouldn't know
what was possible-
Yeah
... with street photography in London specifically. So, that opens your eye.
Films, music, being
inviting inspiration I think is important.
Yeah.
Definitely not being a know-it-all.
I will always listen to people's thoughts in the world of photography.
But yeah, evolving is just, I don't think you can intentionally do it.
Yeah.
It's like trying to figure out what your taste is.
Yeah.
You know, like trying to figure out how to improve your taste.
Yeah.
I don't think that's possible either.
I think you just have to live a life and hopefully develop an eye from that.
Yeah.
It's a hard question.
Yeah.
Mm.
Thank you so much for answering-
Yeah
... the easy and the hard questions.
We always end the podcast with some quick-fire
questions-
Okay
... which I'm going to ask you.
Let's do it.
From today onwards, you can only shoot with one aperture. What would it be?
F8.
That's horrible.
I love it.
Because I was shooting with the-- This isn't quick-fire, but I was shooting with
the Summer Looks, and I've been shooting at 1.4 a little bit over the last few days
and, oh, it's just beautiful. But I think F8 is probably the most
practical. Yeah.
I love it. If your camera could talk, what would it say about
you?
"Can I have a rest, please?"
"Give me a break."
Yeah. It'd be like, "Just put me down for a second."
Hopefully it'd say something positive like, "I'm having fun."
I love it. Which photograph of yours changed the way you see
photography?
Oh, that's impossible to answer.
Which photograph?
Just for the sake of answering, maybe one of the two photographs.
Yeah.
The photograph of the BMX on the bridge, because that made me think, "Wow, this
could be super fun."
Yeah.
And the street photograph of the hands because I was like, "Oh, I did it.
I did something quite fun." Yeah.
Yeah.
If you could go back to the first time you picked up a camera, what would you tell
yourself?
Oh, wow.
Oh, I wouldn't want to spook myself, so
I'm thinking of me in the garage when I was filming myself do a kickflip-
Yeah
... when I got the camera for Christmas. I'd probably just leave myself be.
Yeah.
And I wouldn't want to interrupt what I was thinking.
Yeah. I like that answer.
Don't want to inject any external thoughts or anything.
I don't want to be like-
Yeah. Yeah
... "Yeah, keep doing it, because one day you'll be on 'The Leica Podcast.'"
Yeah. Yeah.
I would've been like, "What?" Yeah.
I like that answer. That's cool. One final
question before we end. Do you have a
photographer on your radar or someone you love
and think needs more attention?
I don't know if he needs more attention, but I'm thinking of one of my-
Or deserves more attention, maybe
... Yeah, one of my best friends, JP, I always hang out with him shooting.
He's a fantastic commercial photographer.
Mm.
His attitude and mindset and hanging around with people like that
really makes everyone's environment better.
Yeah.
I think I probably help him in ways he's not considered, and he helps me in
ways that he's not considered.
So your circle is important.
Yeah.
I'm also thankful for a group, community of street photographers in London.
Yeah.
And London is just a magical place generally, but I've bumped
into a lot of the same people.
Yeah.
I'm not going to start naming names because if I name six people and forget the
seventh- ... I'll feel bad. So,
the London street photography community.
We can put them, we can link them somewhere.
Yeah. It'd be good to have a list, actually.
We'll put their names up. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Cool.
Yeah. We can do that. That's really cool.
So yeah, there's a great community in London.
And then yeah, one of my best friends, JP, for sure. Yeah.
Yeah. Love it. Thank you so much-
Thank you
... for joining us. It's been a complete pleasure talking to you, and
thank you for being here.
My pleasure. This place is just infinitely exciting.
So yeah, this has been super cool. Thanks.
Thanks.