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Welcome to the Turkey Talk Podcast, presented by Bass Pro Shops. Join us as we dive deep into the world of turkey hunting, where we sit down with industry experts to explore the art, science, and passion behind this beloved outdoor pursuit. Each episode is packed with insightful conversations, tips, and tricks to help you enhance your turkey hunting game. Whether you're a seasoned pro or just starting out, The Turkey Talk Podcast is your go-to podcast for all things turkey hunting.
Hey, this is Rob Keck, your host of Bass Pro Shops Turkey Talk, where your adventure always starts right here. And yes, we are in the midst of spring gobbler season in many parts of the country, especially with our guest in his home state of Pennsylvania. I mean, we're right about mid-season and, of course, the Northeast, many of the Western states. I mean, they're going to run right through to the end of May, even the state of Michigan is going to run into the first week of June. Well, you know, for turkey hunters, it is indeed the time of year that we look forward to. We look forward to it with great passion, with hopes that, well, that maybe it never ends. Our wives may think a little bit differently than that, and so are our bosses. But, you know, it's full of sleepless nights, early rising, walking in the dark, maybe missing work a day or two, late for appointments, lawn. Well, probably needed mode about a month ago.
But maybe you're short on patience with family and friends, especially if you haven't punched that turkey tag. And we love it. And the gobble of the wild turkey just continues to draw us to places where, well, places we've never been before.
You know, I've got to ask, any of you out there watching today, have you ever been to a turkey calling contest like the NWTF's Grand National? You know, it's amazing the number of callers that compete in that championship.
There, for many of them, it's created another source of income for them. And there's some that have even made a career on the backs of that little turkey call that fits in one's roof of the mouth. You know, it's just been amazing to me to see a lot of mom and pop operations grow out of what was a turkey calling contest. You know, I look at my own self as a former US Open and a world calling champion. And I think about where that championship and where that mouth call has taken me to a career of 30 years in leading the NWTF, playing a major role in the successful return of the wild turkey. We're talking conservation with five US presidents during that time at the Federation.
We're taking a turkey in 49 states with seasons, Canada, Mexico, Guatemala, New Zealand, and even one in South Africa.
You know, in today's podcast, we're going to meet with one of the turkey callings, well, most decorated calling champions. We're going to discuss the various types of calling devices. We're going to talk about the voice and the vocabulary of the wild turkey, contest calling, turkey calling in the woods, turkey hunting, and a whole lot more. With me today is one of those turkey call that, well, it's taken him a long way. And it's made a huge impact on turkey hunters. He's a very talented call maker. He's an expert turkey hunter. He is a nine time and the current grand national turkey calling champion, hailing from Brookville, Pennsylvania, my good friend, Matt Van Sice. Matt, welcome to Bass Pro Shops Turkey Talk. And once again, congratulations on defending that title for the ninth time, taking home the most coveted title in all of turkey calling. Matt, welcome to the show. - Thanks, Rob. That's great to be on with you. - It's quite an accomplishment. Certainly one that is unrivaled in the 47 years of the grand nationals to win that many. And I've been looking forward to this chance for having you on this podcast to talk about so many different aspects that I know you're passionate about, you've achieved so much over. Why don't you tell me about your season so far? We've texted during the earlier part of the season. I know you said you were in Oklahoma, you were in Kentucky, but how's it been?
What all the states have you been in this spring? - I actually, I guided in South Carolina for a couple of days. We gave, we did a giveaway hunt. That went great. And then on to Oklahoma, Kentucky, Virginia, and back here. And now next week we'll leave for Vermont in May, finish out the season in May. - Finish out the season in May. It's a great place to do it.
You know, I think about the state of Maine. I remember back in the early days when they didn't have hardly any turkeys and, you know, the original range map showed them just in the South Eastern part of the state. They said they never would go very far. Well, as you well know, they've gone the whole way to the Canadian border. In fact, this year for the very first time, non-residents, there were 50 non-resident alien tags that were offered through Outfitters in New Brunswick, New Brunswick, Canada. And who would have thought 30 years ago that that would have ever happened? I mean, it's just amazing.
You know, with you having hunted all those different states this spring and knowing that some states have experienced declines in turkey numbers, how did you find the turkey populations overall in those states? I'm sure it varied, but what did you experience? What did you see? What did you hear? - Overall, very healthy populations in all the states. The common theme this year and every place I've hunted was jakes. - Oh, that's a good sign. - Yeah, one of those years where the jakes almost made it hard to hunt because they were running the longbeards off in a lot of the places we hunted. - Yeah, yeah. You hit on something I was going to talk about later, but since you mentioned that, we probably have some people listening, some people watching. They're saying, well, why if you have all those jakes that make it difficult to hunt those longbeards? Tell us a little bit about that because I know exactly where you're going to go with it. - Well, they gang up on them and bully them. Everybody thinks that the biggest bird to others and one at all, he rules the roost, and that's not the case at all when you have a gang to jakes.
Every time a bird even answered us at times, four or five jakes would come running in and run the longbeards off.
The strength in numbers. - Yeah, it is. And what's really exciting is next spring, there'll be two-year-olds. - Oh, yeah. - And we love to hear those two-year-olds gobble. They make some great movie stars. And I know we all look forward to... It's that gobble, I keep coming back to it, that makes it so special.
For a lot of people that have never been able to hunt outside of their home state, you and I have been fortunate. We've been able to hunt numerous states over the years. And one of the questions I hear from time to time, do you call differently from state to state? Do you call any differently, let's say, for a Rio than what you do in Eastern? - I personally don't. I have always been wanting to kind of let the situation play itself out.
If a bird's working, he's going to tell me what he likes and what he doesn't like. And I don't give them more than what they're responding to. If he's responding and moving, I'm going to keep giving him the same thing. And at times it can sound repetitive. But as you well know, if a conversation goes on long enough, he may get to a point where he no longer responds to that. And you don't always have to call to get him to come.
But I don't like surprises. If I can keep him telling me his location, makes it a lot easier when he does get in close. - That's a great point. That's one that... You know, the old school of turkey hunters, I know back in the 70s especially, don't call too much. Don't call too much. Well, sometimes it was really difficult to course just where he was, where he was coming into. And the next thing you hear him drumming, you say, "Where the heck is he? I can't course it exactly where it's at." And so I follow your line of thinking. I know there's some watching today that say, "Well, look, I don't believe how to call that much." But I really don't think that if you've got a handle on the call, that you can really benefit yourself at the end of the day by coursing that bird as he makes the approach into your calling position.
Well, I've oftentimes heard it said that a turkey couldn't win a turkey calling contest. Do you call differently in the woods as opposed to the way you call on stage at a contest? As far as sounds, no. But in a calling contest, it's somewhat scripted. They tell you exactly what they want you to do. And they don't really have a set routine, especially with the Grand Ashels doing the formats and the scenarios. And many scenarios, it's more about just how I feel at the time and how am I trying to present that situation. So yes, I call it differently in the woods, but it's the same sound. I just don't do as much of it or present it in the same way. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I know that certainly you've called in the Grand Nationals many, many times. How has the competition improved over those years from when you first entered,
especially with the callers trying to copy now the style that you've been winning with? Has it changed any?
That's I guess that's two-sided. You look at it. So I've been around, I started at Grand Nationals my first year was 97. So I got the call with a lot of Hall of Fame guys, Walter Parrish, Chris Parrish, Chris Kirby, Dick Kirby, all those guys that you know, know and knew all too well.
Across the board, it's a different style of calling now and possibly maybe it's improved a little bit, mostly because of materials and the availability of information out there with YouTube and all the stuff that Mike Batty and Danny Galvus and all these guys that made available to us. As far as competition, I don't think the competition overall is tougher today because if you go back to those days, there was seven to 10 guys that could win on any given day. And it's really no different today. It's the same number of guys and it's usually the same top three or four guys in there year in, year out. What sets them apart? What sets you apart? A lot of it's stage presence, you know, knowing what you're going to do, when you're going to do it. Little things like the last two years, 23, I was in the middle of at that time, what was probably the best run I'd ever had. It felt the call dry up and knew that the read had just flipped back and most guys would have panicked. But instead, I just backed off on the air and made that transition to the next call. And as I was switching calls, unstuck the read, when it moved on with it. This year, I had what I felt like was the best run I've ever done and switched back, decided to switch back and go up at the end and was running the Danny Galveston call with no cuts in it. And you have to be a little careful with those dry up and it dried up.
And I got, I think I got four notes out that were not the same and I just ended it because I knew if I kept going, it was going to get bad. But the difference is a season caller that is one, when those kind of things come up, you don't panic. What kind of pressure, if any, did you feel in coming back to Nashville this year to defend that title and in trying to take the ninth, which you did? Most of the pressure that any pressure that I have is usually, you know, I put it up on myself.
I don't really worry about my competitors. I can't control what they do. So it's all about what I do and do I present things in a way that I hear turkeys do it. I'm not wanting to listen to other callers. I don't listen to the guy to go back and listen to grand nationals, except to hear my own stuff and pick apart what I liked or didn't like on it. So everything's compared to what I've heard turkeys do and all the recordings that I have. Well, I know you weren't happy with your draw number and calling position in this year's grand national finals. And I think he called out of the fourth spot and that's a tough position to win out of. And so what was it like after you drew number four in that calling position
and then come back and actually smoke the competition, defend that title back in February. And, you know, after the competition, I heard some of those finalists say,
it didn't matter what position you were calling. You were so good that day that it just stood out from all the rest. Just what was it like, though? I mean, I know mentally this had to be a challenge to you. Oh, it is every time you go up there.
One thing, though, is, you know, so I've won it nine times and all nine times have been on that stage in that room that of all the places I've ever called in any kind of contest, that stage in that room in Nashville is special. It sounds different. There's different presence in that room.
You know, and people say, well, I mean, I could never get up in front of all them people. You don't even see those people. You don't even you see a few in the front row when you walk up there, but your focus is on what you're doing when you're there, the job you're doing. So right.
There is there is pressure, but it's a little different for me at this point. I mean, I have goals. I still have some goals that I want to achieve. And you never know. Things can change, you know, year to year. Something can happen. And this that may have been the last one, but I surely won't quit working towards it. Well, if you would, knowing that, you know, there are a number of challenges to continue to repeat as the champion.
Did your strategy change this year as opposed to previous years? And maybe you could share a little bit about your strategy that you employed to take that championship. It did change this year because we had a slight format change. So in the past years, we had two scenarios and they were three minutes apiece.
I believe it was four calls plus a scenario score. This year we had three mini scenarios and they were two calls, no scenario score. So in a way, it made it easier.
I practice probably just like everybody else as far as the calls I practice for the first month and a half that I start. I usually start end of December.
And when I get to that two week point before leaving for Nashville, then I switch and I practice nothing but my scenarios.
And part of that is timing. When I do them, I watch a clock.
And then it's just I try to come up with ideas of things that I can do different than I've done other years. And a lot of that, you know, I mentioned Danny Galvus and he has been so gracious to send me hour upon hour upon hour recordings that he's done. So I have all this stuff with the backlog I can go back and listen to and try to pick out subtle things that I can do that that are different. You know, every turkey calls differently, as you well know.
How do you decide which one you want to try to mimic? I mean, if you've got a hen that's that you open, I mean, from an old hen assembly call to you name it, every one of those yelp a little bit differently. You know, what trips your trigger? What do you try to do? And the other part of this was, you know, and I heard some of your competitors say this, how you make it sound like you hit the call and it sounds like the turkeys over here and the next call, it sounds like the turkeys over there.
Two different turkeys may be talking to one another. Talk to us about that. That's just, you know, we use that tactic in the woods. And again, that goes back to some of the pioneers in the turkey videos talked about ventriloquist and calling again, that was Danny. No, you just start your head a different way. But I use one call for most of what I do where I notice a lot of what the other guys do. I notice a lot of what the other competitors are switching a lot. And it takes away from it. You know, it takes away from the whole scenario because there's time in between where they're getting the call ready.
There's not an actual flow like you have when there's two turkeys talking back and forth. So most of that is, you know, just changing the way I blow the air across the call and then turn my head, you know, try to throw it to the back of the stage or the side of the stage. I say that that's another, you know, I guess that would be a secret for me is I never turn away from the judges. I want them to always hear the full effect in the call, but I can throw it to one side or another to make it sound like they're in two different areas. Yeah. And of course, for many that are listening here, they maybe say, well, what kind of calls you talked about? I mean, you clearly, and I think the vast majority of the finalists are using mouth calls.
How many reads on that call that you use the most for?
I've always run it, but I stretch it tight. It's heavy latex tight stretch, but I've run it basically that same call since I won my very first one in 2005. Do you have tape on the frame? I do. Yep. You know, some of us, myself included, Terry Rahm and others, we've called for so long with out tape. And one of the reasons I like it is that I can move that call around in the roof of my mouth to get different sounds. I mean, if I'm the open, I mean, I can go real low. I can go real high. I can shift at one side or the other. And, uh, you know, for, for those of us that use just the frame, that's been the advantage. They go to put a mouth call in that has tape on about gag. I can hardly handle it, but, uh, you know, that's one of those questions that I hear from time to time. Are these guys, you know, what kind of call, how many reads they use and how about, you know, you mentioned four reads, how about the cuts on the reads? I use a what's called a reverse combo, you know, like in a, like the old shipwreck cut, uh, mine, if you're looking at the top of the call, the cutout is on the right side. So the air would be coming off the left side for the clear. It really doesn't work that way for me. I don't manipulate my tongue left and right. Like some guys do, I have just learned I pretty much blow rate street down the center of the call, but I've always caught one on that side. Yeah. Well, last year you and I had the privilege of standing in the circle on the grand old Opry. We did it on Wednesday night. And as I mentioned, Wednesday night that, uh, the, the next champion was going to be there on the Saturday night show. And of course you were there on the Saturday night show. We did it again this year, Wednesday night Opry there in the circle. And then, uh, again, you came back for Saturday night. What was it like for you to step on the stage to be in the circle, the grand old Opry for the first time last year. And then again, this year in front of a sold out Opry house. Well, that's an honor that not very many people get to experience, but to go back, you know, I am a pretty much only a country music fan.
And then to go back to when I was a young child, my dad listened to all those guys, Porter Wagner, Marty Robbins. I went to a John Connelly concert when I was pretty young when Rose Collard Glasses was a big deal.
To get to be there and see some of those guys, Bill, we got to meet Bill Anderson and Lori Morgan, uh, to think that a Turkey call would give me that opportunity is just crazy. You know, you would never believe a Turkey call would give you that kind of opportunity. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I've, I've oftentimes we're going to talk a little bit more about that. Just where that little Turkey call has taken people. I know myself, it's taken me a long way and I'll share that in just a little bit, but, uh, what does it mean to you to be the grand national champion acknowledged as one of the best callers ever?
It's hard to put that into words. I mean, it's obviously you, you like the attention. If you do this kind of thing, uh, most of it has been more of a personal thing. Just reassure myself that I can still do with it. I still have it. And some of it is the fact that I don't want to give it up. I don't want anybody else to win that contest. That sounds greedy, but that's just, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that sounds like a Dale Earnhardt position for sure.
Let's back up a little bit. Let's share some background information. Where'd you grow up? Tell us about that. I grew up in Warren County, Pennsylvania. Korean Valley was the name of the town. It wasn't a town, just a little village.
In those days, some absolutely incredible Turkey.
Not sure what it's like there now. I'm not, I'm 70 miles from there and don't get up there. I don't think it's quite as good. It's an incredible hunting and even some names. I'm pretty sure you knew who Fred Webster was. You know, Fred was from the town. I went to high school in Titusville and, uh, just some really good Turkey owners and some great guys to learn from. Where'd you see or hear your first Turkey there in Warren County or after you moved? There was in Warren County.
In those days you could, you couldn't hunt in Pennsylvania until you're 12. So I deer hunting. My dad was not a Turkey hunter and I had a good friend in high school that was a Turkey hunter. So the following year when I was 13, we went and I was obsessed with it from the beginning, but didn't really, the end of the first season, my uncle who was an accomplished hunter killed turkeys took me kind of a funny story. Nobody ever told me where to aim. Didn't really tell me what I was looking for. He called in some turkeys and I was, I was aiming at one of the hens and just happened to look out in my left eye and there was a big golfer standing there and I made a full swing on this Turkey at 10 yards.
He never moved. Never had that happen again. Seth and most people haven't even ever seen or at least I had borrowed a Savage pump 12 gauge, had a thumb safety like a Mossberg. I know exactly when you're talking about. And I couldn't get the safety off. They ended up walking away. I didn't kill one. So that was 13.
Didn't hunt with him much again. And it took me till I was 17 to kill my person because I would go in in the morning and they'd be gone on a roost and I'd just yelp and cut and do everything I could. Most often they would lie down and go the other way. And yeah, for some of us who grew up in Pennsylvania, we, you know, we didn't have a spring Turkey season when we started. I mean, when I started, it was fall seasons. And I don't know when you turned 12, I don't know how far into spring gobbler hunting Pennsylvania even had been. Well, I believe it started in 68. It did. So that would have been in, I would have been in the early nineties. So we had pretty healthy populations. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
Well, tell us about your career path then. I mean, obviously you're at the pinnacle right now and still, still moving forward.
After that first kill, where did things go for Matt Van Sice?
Well, I got, you know, I got to start traveling.
For a while, it was just Ohio and New York, you know, and didn't really start traveling beyond that until in 2000, I went to world championships and won the open at the world championships. So that opened doors. I got to go and hunt a few other places that out of Texas.
Then over the years, I got the hunt, you know, I got to start hunting a lot of states. I haven't done 49. I just, I've never chased that, but, you know, I've got to hunt some beautiful places in a lot of states. And it was 2005. I started off with you and Terry in Florida, and I killed a single season of slam that year. And I haven't tried to do it since.
But, you know, I get to hunt a lot of states. So it's been awesome the whole way through and just the experience of everybody I've met and the friendships that I've made over the years. That's probably the most special part of all of it. I would agree. I mean, I feel the very same way. Well, who lit that fire? You mentioned your uncle, that passion that you have for hunting, for calling. Where did that spark ignite into the into the wildfire that you have today about wild turkeys? With the wild turkey stuff, it started just with a friend that I went to high school with. His name was Ben Harvey.
And even in those early days, he was a pretty good turkey hunter. He was one of the few young guys that was able to go out and call turkey in every year to kill one. But then as I got into high school, I met a guy that was a competitive caller. His name was Doug LeBolt.
And he owned a little call company. They called Killer Calls.
And Doug did more for that than anybody. And him and I are still great friends. I still think the world of him. Talk to him often. And, you know, from there, I met Dave Tilburg. When I went to college, he was in the same town, Williamsport, Pennsylvania. Williamsport, yep. I remember Dave. And Doug LeBolt told me about him. He said, "When you get there, look him up." So I looked him up in the phone book, called him. He invited me to his house, never met me. Went over there and he helped me out. But then from there, probably the biggest influence after that was Danny. I met Danny Galvus at the Erie B.A. contest. I think it was around 99 or 2000.
And he come up to me after I had one new contest. And he told me, you know, he said, "I really like what you're doing." He's like, "Just remember, don't ever copy those other guys."
He said, "If you do, you're just always going to be chasing them. You're never going to be what you need to be." So great advice. Great advice. You know, I remember back in the early days when I was calling,
when a caller would start, you could hear the click of tape record. Yep. And everybody was recording, you know, who was calling and then, of course, focusing on the winners. And they were trying to copy the winner. They wanted to be like, you know, Matt Van Sice or whomever it happened to be. All right. You mentioned Danny as far as calling. Looking at perfecting the hunting side of your skills,
who were your biggest influencers there? A lot of that was Danny. You know, as I got into calling or some of that change, I mean, you got guys like Walter Farah and Chris Parrish, you know, and Chris Kirby was another one that he was just inducted into the Hall of Fame, but you don't hear a lot of guys talk about just how good a caller Chris Kirby was, you know, and him and I being friends all the years. But Danny had some really unique stuff in his videos that other people weren't doing. He wasn't killing turkeys. He was teaching you how to kill turkeys, you know. All these things that guys do today that they don't even know where it came from. They've been trillic with them calling, pick a spot, you know, your set ups, how important a lot of stuff is. And being from Pennsylvania, his videos were more readily available when we went to the rental place to rent a video. So we rented them over and over. But then beyond that, juries, you know, Mark and Terry just had some great stuff with, you know, they had some of the best callers at the time. Steve Stoltz and Don Chip and all these guys. And I learned a lot from those kind of things. Yeah. I'm just talking to Mark today. He's on a trip going across Montana and another guest in our podcast series. And, you know, he's just lit the fire under so many people, of course, with his television presence, his stage presence and what have you. And, you know, I think all of us, you know, we look back and see who are those people that influenced us and, you know, certainly give thanks to them for that. So, okay. When did you enter that first contest and what contest was it? The very first contest would have been in 96 at in Bloomsburg, VA at their their sported show.
And the I'm not sure I didn't place there, but the following week I went to Harrisburg to the big sports show. Yeah. And Chris was there, Kirby.
Try to think there was a bunch of Frank Antonacci, Dave Tilburg, all those guys. I ended up placing third there in the open and possibly got to see Paul Botsky call in his last contest. He out-leaded it. They didn't call. I know I never saw him call anywhere again after that. You know, Paul was with us on the Wednesday night Opry and it was really cool to have him there because I brought him out because he was the first grand national champion that I actually had on stage of the Opry. And that was Porter Wagner who made that introduction back when the format of the Opry was a little bit different. And it was so cool to have have Paul out there. And of course, he's a great friend to all of us. And, you know, he hasn't lost his touch at all with that call. And I know he hunted with Mark this spring in Iowa and in Missouri and a couple of fantastic hunts. You can check them out on Drury Outdoors for sure. Well, when was the first win then? You mentioned third in Harrisburg. When did it, or how long did it take you then to finally be in the winner's circle? I, well, to back up on that, I never called in a amateur contest. I started in the open because Doug of Old said that I didn't need to be calling it an amateur. So that year, 96, I believe it was in July, I went to the Delaware State and won that. I know there's some aspiring competition callers that are watching and, and of course, many of them trying to follow in your footsteps. What advice would you give to them? It's important to listen to turkeys and everybody says that, but there's there's so much to it. When you really start listening and breaking it down and it's, you really need to pay attention
more to the how of they do it and the sound. The sound is important, but you mentioned, you touched on this earlier. Every single turkey sounds a little different, just like a human. Everybody's voice is different and recognizable. So as long as it's close, the sound isn't as important as how it's presented. And that's when you start breaking that down. You start here and just how close each one of them really are in the way that they do it. The how far, you know, and then just it's harder today because the number of contests, but you've got to have that. If you're going to win, you win a lot. You've got to have stage time. You've got to be able to have confidence when you walk up there that things are going to do what they do. Back to that point about delivery, the timing, that rhythm.
You know, my dad was not a competition caller. He wasn't a great caller by any means, but he had the delivery. He had the rhythm down and as rough as it may have sounded when you were right there standing in his presence, when you're off a hundred yards, man, he'd put you on your knees sometimes. And I think that's the point you're trying to make. And it's a point that I make with many people. Listen to that rhythm in a way that Turkey Hen delivers that call or that young gobbler delivers to them. You know, when you talk about practice, you know, you mentioned that for the Grand Nationals, and of course, you know, you've done this so many times, you start there at the end of December, but for some of these aspiring competition callers, you know, how do you practice? How often do you practice, you know, how should they decide on how many calls to take with them on stage?
Well, that's something I don't think a lot of guys do this. But I mean, I have a few calls picked out that I set aside throughout the year, whether it's hunting calls, I set them aside because I know that there's something special in. But I have always tried to match a call to the room. When I get there, I'll run through what I got and find out what works best in that room. I don't think very many people do that. It's kind of a run what you brought, you know, that's all. They got one call in practice.
And it might not always be the best calling in that particular room. So that's that's one thing. But then back to, you know, practice.
I still work as a forester procurement manager, you know, and then I come home and build turkey calls, especially that time of year. It's, you know, it's all or nothing, you know, you're trying to keep up with orders. So I have to force myself, you know, and I usually give myself about an hour every night. And every once in a while, I'll have a night where things are off. And I might spend four or five hours practicing just probably not a good practice, but it's always worked for me just work until I know I've worked through it. You know, usually the next day, things are on point.
You know, one of the questions that I've I've had asked, how many calls do you build in search of the one that you take on stage? Not nearly as many as I used to. So materials have gotten way better now. And of course, 30 years of building them, I got a pretty good feel for it. And I still it's a press, but I still stretch with my fingers. I don't use a gauge or anything to do that part. So I probably build, let's say maybe a couple hundred calls to get ready to go to Grand Ashland's where 20 years ago, I might have built two or three thousand calls. It just got thrown in the trash. Just build, build, build until I get what I want. Yeah, I don't think many people realize that. I mean, when you're at the top of your game, you got to go through a lot of them. They made all look the same. They may like the same. They may have the same cuts, the same. But there's there's something unique about each one of them. And it's in the material itself. And I know for a lot of guys that don't build their calls, I mean, it can get quite expensive if you're out there and you don't have a sponsor. I mean, I can't even imagine that if you're going to be at the top of your game, that you don't have some kind of a supply that's coming in on a regular basis. And I know that there's some that are members of a team that builds calls. So they have access to them. But, you know, it's a point that that is very important if you want to be at the top, if you want to be the best. And everybody has a different way. So Billy Yargis and I kind of started off and say, I think the same year, roughly, we went to the world together. I've always been close friends where, you know, I said I'd build a thousand calls. Billy would build two and learn to run those calls. He would run those calls until they were doing so he was running the way he wanted.
You know, and I think Chris Parrish was a lot like that. He'd built five or six calls and just work with those calls until he figured out what he wanted out of it. Yeah. But for me, it was just I didn't want to change what I was doing because it was working. I just want to build a call that would do what I needed to do. Yeah. Yeah. Anything else you want to add on competitive calling before we move on to the hunting aspect of this discussion we're having? No. The hunting part of it is my favorite. That's the best part of it.
Well, then let's move to woods calling. Talk about calls, calling devices that turkey hunters employ.
What advice would you give to a beginning turkey hunter that's wanting to call? And he's not calling competitively, but, you know, we're looking at a new generation of people out there that are taking up the sport. We're seeing, you know, a lot of growth in a lot of areas, the number of permits going up. A lot of these guys, I mean, are rank amateurs. So what advice would you give to that beginning turkey hunter that wants to learn to call? And now we're talking about more than just mouth calls. Right. Now, there's so much information available. You know, YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, if you punch in and turkey helping, there's so much and great, incredible stuff that we never had access to. I mean, you know, I don't know what it was like prior to when I started. When I started, it was real turkeys. Love it. Williams tapes. That was it. And whatever. Ben Lee had it. I never had any of his stuff. So now there's so much out there and there's such a good variety of turkey calls.
Back in those days, it was either Quaker boy for me, where I grew up, Quaker boy, Butzky or Smith, Jim Smith calls. That's all you could buy in the areas I lived in. So now you can go online, order anything you want. But probably the most important things to start with, learn to yell when you learn to clock. And it doesn't have to be a national championship level, but there's so much information. There's all kinds of videos telling you how to do it, teaching you how to do it. Just put some effort into those two calls to start with. And then once you get those, move on. But, you know, there's the friction calls are easy to run. Box calls are easy to run. A mouth goes always going to be a mouth. They take more effort, but I think they're more rewarding because you're hands free. You can do so much more with them. Absolutely. Why don't you just quickly, just quickly take us through the voice and vocabulary of the wild turkey. I mean, you mentioned clutch, you mentioned yelps.
Just just take it, you know, from the top and give us a little bit. The first thing you'd see me do there is just what to call.
They stick together and they'll make vice weeks and things you don't want to do. But to start with, I'll do like some lighter tree calls.
For me, I do a lot of it with my throat, so you don't see a lot of movement there.
From that, I'll just do some clocks.
If she's in the tree, she's going to do what we call flat out cackle. Just a fast, rapid series of plucks, but there's more emotion at the neural clock.
Only yelping.
First thing you hear when anybody picks up a turkey call.
I have always said, undoubtedly the most important call that anybody can learn, and the one that everybody wants to hear.
Love it. Love it. Did you have a box call there? I do. Why don't you give us some clocks and yelps on a box call? I will. So it's going to be a little bit harder to see. But for me, with a box call at a clock, I'll open the lid up about like that, about that far. And then I'll put a little bit of down pressure right here on this. I always do it on this side and I just pop it. So that'd be a clock.
In clocks, you can turn into cuts. And then from a yell, most calls, mine tend to require a touch more down pressure. And that's just because of how I call. But for the most part, a box call will do it just by closing the lid.
So that's basically what you're going to hear most guys do. Just a little bit quicker and put it together.
And if you, I think I can turn it towards.
That's yelp. That sounds great. Well, if a new hunter's looking to buy a call to start with, what would you advise? The box?
If you've never done anything, absolutely a box. Yes. A new novice turkey hunter, I would start with a box. Okay. How about a pot call then? Do you have anything there? Do you have any pot calls with you? This call here is a ceramic. And it's just what I prefer with hunting because moisture doesn't affect it as much. Same thing with a clock, a little bit of down pressure and just pop it.
And then a yelp.
There's different ways. Some guys draw a little circle.
I tend to open up a little more. And when you see it on there, it almost looks more like a fish hook with a with a wade guard on.
And then you can throw clocks in there with it.
That is just outstanding. I, you know, Matt, the rhythm that you have with every one of those call calling devices, I mean, you can just, you can hear the turkey in it. And that's that point, folks, that we're, you know, we're trying to emphasize that deliver that sound in the way that a turkey does it. And of course, listening to those videos, listening to a real turkey can help you achieve that.
You know, there's long boxes, there's short boxes, there's one sided boxes. How would this beginner sort that out on what, what, what you would advise him to, to buy? For a beginner, I would recommend a short box and like a minor handled, a one-sided spine, a neocast style with a hint, you know, with a base on the bottom, all those are good. A long box takes a little more, a little more practice and a little more years. Will you rock it? Yeah. There's no spring on most of them. And there's actually, there's more turkeys in a long box, you know, on one side of the rail, you can get three different age class of turkeys out of that call. So it's just, it's a, it's a little more advanced caller and it starts using a long box. When you call or when you take a box call, tell us about just quickly how you take care of it, sanding it, chalking it, carrying it, the holster, those kinds of things. Well, that's one of the most common things that I see guys do wrong. They, you know, they have me look at their box calls. I don't believe you can chalk them too much. But when they don't get chalk, they get slick. So for me, if somebody brings me a call that's slicked up and is it working right, I'll take like a 220 grit and just right here, you know, where the pattern is on the call, I'll just do a crosshatch pattern with the two. And you're not really taking much material off, you're just getting that glaze off there and it'll hold chalk again. But, you know, if I'm, I really don't use a box call as much anymore. I use it more for strike and trying to locate a bird. So, you know, I don't say, I won't say that I chalk it every time, but when you run one as much as I do building, you can feel it when the call needs it. What kind of chalk? I use a brown railroad chalk. It's a, that I order offline. Yep. What I started with was HS Strut. Brown chalk is what I liked the best. And they changed to a green chalk or something. And I, so I just had to find my home. I hear you. I'm the same way. How do you care for that pot call? Do you say in that surface, what do you do with the end of the striker? I do. The end of the striker, if I use it, I do use a pot call quite a bit.
It gets cleaned up with a ceramic, a little more often because it'll grab too hard. So, it probably gets cleaned up with a piece of Scotch Brite once a day. And then the pot call service, I use a stone that seems to work the best, just like you use on a crystal, just a, just a wet stone. Yeah. Yeah. How do you find the right striker? You know, a lot of times you can open a package and, you know, it has the pot call and it has a striker only to find out somebody lends you a striker and it sounds better than the one that came with the call. Tell us about finding the right striker.
Best way to do that is to go to the NWTF show or one of the big sporting, you know, the outdoor shows and visit the different call makers that are at those shows and try that, you know, try what they have because, you know, when I saw a pot call, I match a striker up to it, but that striker's matched up for the way that I run the call. You may have a different amount of pressure that you put on a call and that striker's not going to give you the most optimum sound out of that call. So it's just a matter of trial and error. All right. Let's go back to the mouth call. You got a first timer. He's got a pot call and he's mastered that. He's got a box call and he wants to graduate now into a mouth call. What should they do to get started? Probably the thing that I teach guys most and I start with a, you can either use a straight read or a ghost cut, learn to get that high pitch, that high whistle note like a kiki.
In order to do that, I put the call on the roof of my mouth. The easiest way to teach guys is to hold their teeth together and say the word key through it.
Once you get that, you can drop the jaw.
Obviously, it's easier for a guy that's done it for 30 years, but that's your first step. You know, because one of the exercises that they teach you, learn to get that.
And there's a whole, the whole range of that voice is in that call when you do that.
It's annoying to listen to, but everything is in there. Every part of that hands voice is in that.
You put that together into a yell.
When you slow it down for what I just did, you get those two parts. That's the easiest way. Just learn to get a kiki note and then drop open up. Yeah, for sure. And again, on the reads for that beginner, straight single or double, or what would you recommend? Everybody's different, but a lighter call is going to be easier for most. So it depends on what, you know, if they've listened to some turkeys and they want to be raspy, well, maybe a V cut or a bat wing. If they want more of a clear two-tone note, like I just did a straight read or a ghost cut. You don't see many, I don't even know what they call them, but like the old boss hand, the splits on the side, you don't see that as much anymore. But those make some great old hand sounds. They do. They do. I still use that single with that split on each side. I just make it so different than what you hear most of the competition callers, but boy, is it a great woods call. It is. It's very realistic and it sounds much more like the older hens that you tend to hear more often when you're in the woods. Yeah. Yeah. Mark Dury was telling me this morning, again from Montana, they struck a gobbler and he was just covered up with hens. And he said, surprisingly, the hens came right to them. But he said they were vocal. He said they were all calling. He said it was just like being, you know, in heaven. He said, I haven't heard that kind of calling in a long time. He said it just was the best for sure. All right. As we look to go into the Turkey woods, tell us about what you take in the woods. Do you wear a vest? And if you do, what kind of equipment besides your calls do you take?
Thermosel. That's one of the most important things, especially with traveling. And, you know, everybody talks about how bad it is in the South, but man,
Maine, the end of May is horrible up there. So, you know, I go, you know, Sandy Brady, I go up and out with him and my wife goes, there might be four or five of us and every one of us has got a thermos cell hanging on us running. So that's a big one. I usually have four or five little boxes with mouth calls in them. Almost always have a pot call, you know, and then vest and gloves and things like that. And then just a stone, some sandpaper, scotch, bright things like that. That's and I do wear a vest mostly for the seat. I just don't like to carry the seat with me or I probably wouldn't wear a vest. Yeah. How about your favorite turkey gun? What do you shoot? Right now, this year I'm shooting a Beretta on a 400 and it's at a 20 gauge. And absolutely crazy what we're getting how these guns now it is just mind blowing. Yeah. What kind of ammo are you shooting? What shot size do you select? Do you like? I'm shooting the new micro DSS and it's a seven by nine out of five eights. And
that kind of the sevens kind of went against conventional TSS thinking. But what it's doing to these turkeys is crazy. So it's I'm liking it. But in the past, I've always used, you know, since twitching at TSS, I've well with a nine or eight and a half. So you like that 20? Love it. Absolutely. I shot a 20 for many, many years. I graduated onto a 410, which I've had a lot of luck with and a lot of fun. It's certainly a lot lighter to carry. How about a sighting device? What do you what do you like? What do you use to help aim that shotgun that you're going to understand point of aim and point of impact? I use a reflex sight at burst, burst, fast fire three is what's on mine. Yeah. Great.
Looking at places you've been, and I know you get asked, I get asked this all the time. What's your favorite state?
Pennsylvania. It's hard to beat home. Yeah. Hard to beat home for sure. And if I had to pick outside of that, not really for the turkey hunting, even though it's incredible. The New England states are so pretty that I just, and then the friendships that I've made there, that's probably my next favorite place. Yeah. Well, where's the toughest turkeys you've ever hunted? Proud. I can't say that turkey wise, I've really run into anything different, but the Talladega National Forest in Alabama, mainly because they just the sheer number of hunters. And
that was one thing that was always talked about with Pennsylvania with our high hunter numbers. But it's not the same as it was 30 years ago. There's been, I mean, no disrespect when I say this, but when you start looking back at the number of really good turkey hunters in those days, not quite the same now, but when you go to Alabama,
every one of those guys is killing their four or five, whatever the limit is now. And so it is a different ballgame when you get down there. And it's a little different tradition. I mean, everybody hunts hard and they don't give them any relief from the start of the season till the end. Yeah, for sure. I've always said that if you can kill a turkey down there, you can kill one just about anywhere in the country, for sure. What lies ahead in the future of Matt Sice? When you look at calling, you look at hunting more professionally, or are you looking to be in the next couple of years? I'm looking to do more of my own, more with my own call company.
It's growing to a point now where I'm doing good with it and that opportunity is out there. So looking to do more with that and the hunting, that's just have to see what comes about. I'm about tapped out now for as much as I can go. Still working. Sure. Sure. What are you going to retire from working in the woods?
Not sure yet, but hopefully so. Okay. I won't tell your employer. Tell us where we can find your calls for sale. Right now, we're just doing things through Facebook, but I'm in the process of building a website, probably be another month and a half, two months, should have our website up and running. So right now we've just all done through Facebook. Yeah. What all do you offer? Tell us about the different calls that you have. We have a pretty full-on mouth calls, box calls, and a bunch of different pot calls right now. Good. And what name do they go under? High class calls. High class calls. Yep. All right. Well, there you go. Man, is there anything else that you'd like to share with us today? I mean, we've got a minute or two here. Anything you'd like to say about hunting, about calling conservation? Well, I mean, you touched on it. You were a major part of it, but well, I guess this will be a selfish part. What the NWTF has done for me personally with winning and the opportunities they've given me and then to look back the opportunities they've given all of us, the turkey hunt. I don't know if there's another conservation organization
that can even compare to what the NWTF has done for the wild turkey. I don't know if there is, in my mind, there's not. And I think all of us as turkey hunters, all of them,
I want for what has happened over the past 50 years. It's been a team effort. Lots of chapters, lots of members, lots of professionals, many, many partners. And I was just very fortunate to be in a position where I could help bring all of them together so that we could work for a common cause in restoring this turkey, which had been gone in many parts of the country for well over a hundred years, and then to see them expand well beyond what was considered the ancestral range and places, well, right to the Canadian border. They said they'd never live. And it's been amazing. And the hunters have helped pay the way. I always want to salute the hunters for the dollars that they've generated through their purchase of licenses and tags and stamps and what have you. And hunters have been the unsung heroes of conservation. And unfortunately, those that don't understand hunting don't recognize that what they see, whether it's here in a turkey gobble on a spring morning or an elk bugle in the fall or a flock of geese overhead, a herd of deer, antelope, bears in places where they've been gone for a hundred years. It's been the hunter that has brought them back. How about a final thought on turkey calling? I'll tell you a final thought and an important one. If you're going to take this to a level that I have, you better have somebody good at home supporting you. Yeah. Because it is, most people have no idea. It's no different than any other competitive thing you get into. The amount of time that you put into it, you have to have somebody to support you
or you just can't do it. It's just not possible without that. So, you know, my wife deserves a lot of credit. There's a lot more to this call company and what I do is she does behind the scenes that other people just don't realize. Yeah. Now I could not agree with you more, man. It's a great, great thought. Well, Matt, thanks so much for your time. We're out of time here today, but thanks for your expertise and sharing this vast knowledge of calling and of hunting. You know, it's been a long time since we hunted together there in South Florida. You, Terry and I, and Hunt knows Osceola is there, uh, then on the Seminole Indian Reservation. And I just look forward to another spring morning under a magnificent sunrise that you and I can share in listening and calling to the gobble of the wild turkey. Well, folks, as I've said so many times, it's the gobble, not the gobbler that makes each spring so special. Matt, thanks for answering the call. That rich call to conservation, that call in preserving our rich hunting, fishing, and trapping heritage folks. Till next time for Bass Pro Shops, this is Rob Keck. Make sure you hit the subscribe button and watch our other episodes to stay up to date on all things turkey heading.