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Real News For Real New Mexicans.
The Chile Wire with Abe Baldonado.
Megan Hinojos:Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of The Chile Wire. I am Megan Hinojos and I am guest hosting this week for Abe. We have a very special guest in the studio today, Rebecca Weaver. So Rebecca, we have a tradition on the podcast. The first question that we ask, you're from here.
Megan Hinojos:You were born and raised here. Red. So I can ask you, red or green?
Rebecca Weaver:Green. Green.
Megan Hinojos:Okay. Yes. Yes. Same for me. Same for me.
Megan Hinojos:So just tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do.
Rebecca Weaver:Sure. So thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. As you said, I'm a native New Mexican born and raised, so it's great to be back. Live in Texas now.
Rebecca Weaver:I'm Rebecca Weaver. I'm the director of advocacy and policy for Ablog, and Ablog is a very long acronym for the American Association of Pro Life Obstetricians and Gynecologists. We are a medical professional organization that represents about 8,000 women's health care professionals who care for women in in any capacity. Now, obviously, OB GYN is in our name. That's our focus, but we have medical specialties from a whole range of areas.
Rebecca Weaver:Anyone who takes care of women and practices in a life affirming way is welcome to join us. Mhmm. And we have members in every state and internationally as well. And so we have Ablog and Ablog Action. Ablog Action is our c four advocacy arm, and our focus with that is really to mobilize medical voices to be part of the conversations that they need to be at the heart of, which include caring for both of their patients, the, you know, women and preborn children, and really using their voice to make an impact in all of these issue areas.
Megan Hinojos:Yeah. For sure. Before we get into Ablog and everything that it does, can you just briefly give us a defense of the pro life position and tell us, like, why are you pro life?
Rebecca Weaver:Sure. So I think, you know, we can be pro life for a lot of reasons, including for faith reasons, is a huge But part of even regardless of that, looking at the science, especially from Ablog, a medical organization, science shows, and embryology shows that a new human being is created at that moment of fertilization. And when that moment happens, there's a literal spark. And so at that moment, you know, we know that that is a unique person with their own DNA unlike anyone else who's ever existed. And from that very beginning moment, that person is worthy of our legal protection and our moral attention.
Rebecca Weaver:And so that's the reason I'm pro life. I I want to see justice done. I want to ensure that every human being has that legal protection and moral attention that they deserve from the very beginning Mhmm. To the very end. And and at Ablog, we focus on preborn life and Mhmm.
Rebecca Weaver:And women's health care and that kind of thing more than other issue areas. But that's why I'm pro life, and I love that our position is backed by science.
Megan Hinojos:Yeah. Absolutely. It's so important for medical professionals to be speaking into this issue because it always seems like it's kind of, oh, it's a mother and her doctor, or a woman and her doctor, and that's the decision for her. And the doctor kind of is never a part of the conversation. Yeah.
Megan Hinojos:It's always just the women marching, so it's really interesting to hear from someone who represents the doctors. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about why it's important to recognize both the mom and the baby as patients when you're having, you know, maternal care?
Rebecca Weaver:Right, totally. So for obstetrician gynecologists, right, their training is literally for two patients, the mom and the baby. And so it's a very jarring consideration when all of the sudden, one of their patients isn't even supposed to be part of the conversation, or when they're directed to not even refer to the baby as a baby. You know, they're directed to use other language. And certainly in scientific you know, in in using scientific terminology, you you refer to embryo and fetus and all of those things.
Rebecca Weaver:Like, those are medically accurate, but removing the conversation of protecting one of their patients is is not what they went into medicine, especially this specialty to do. Exactly. And I think the other thing, you know, you said so often we hear this is a conversation between women and their doctors. No one else should be involved. Well, so often when women are receiving or obtaining an abortion, they're not seeing their doctor.
Rebecca Weaver:Ninety three percent of OBGYNs do not perform induced abortions. So women are going to see an abortionist, not their doctor, and they're gonna see that abortionist for that brief time that they have the abortion. And then when they need follow-up care, they're not gonna see that doctor again. And so that that kind of lie or false narrative is not even what's really happening about this conversation being between a woman and her doctor.
Megan Hinojos:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it kind of goes against everything that they are trained for to ignore the child. The baby who is 100% part of the conversation.
Rebecca Weaver:Right.
Megan Hinojos:How is Aplog helping to shape the future of life affirming medicine and just equipping the future of medical professionals as they navigate this kind of weird, tricky time?
Rebecca Weaver:Yeah, Totally. So, yes, equipping the next generation is a huge part of what we are passionate about and what we do. Every year, we have an annual conference, and a huge part of that is bringing medical students and trainees to the conference so that they know you are not alone in having life affirming values or practicing in a life affirming way. You can have mentors. You can see all these other people in in certainly OB GYN, but other specialties who are doing the same thing and feel the camaraderie of that.
Rebecca Weaver:Yes. And so, you know, equipping them with that. I think I think just knowing you're not alone is a huge part of it. But then also a huge part of what Abloq does is research and issuing practice guidelines and committee opinions to help medical professionals practice in a life affirming way. And so that's helping equip the next generation of knowing how do we navigate practicing in a state with pro life laws or practicing in a state that doesn't have pro life laws.
Rebecca Weaver:Or how do we handle consideration when there's a medical emergency? You know, how do we from a pro life perspective think about that in caring for both our patients? All of those kinds of things we really want to help them navigate.
Megan Hinojos:Yeah. No, for sure. How do our doctors in this whole conversation, how are doctors uniquely equipped to talk into these issues
Rebecca Weaver:Yeah. When it's abortion? So polling has shown that on this issue specifically of abortion, the two most trusted voices are women Uh-huh. And doctors.
Megan Hinojos:Mhmm.
Rebecca Weaver:And so when we saw that polling recently, you know, it just hit home even more to us of how important medical voices are because so often we just hear the one side. The one side that says abortion is health care, and it seems like met the medical voice is a monolith, and that's where we come in to say no. Like, we're that second opinion, that second medical opinion, and says not all medical professionals think that abortion is health care. In fact, it's not. And say why it's not from a scientific perspective and a medical perspective.
Rebecca Weaver:And and so that's really where we we try to come in. But, yes, the medical voice is so important, and we know that from polling, and we know that from when when you you know, one of the things we do is advocacy. And I know that when a doctor in a white coat shows up to testify before a committee or anything like that, immediately, that visual just gives you kind of a impact of this person has credentials and expertise that I need to sit up and listen to when it comes to medical issues and abortion and things like that.
Megan Hinojos:A 100%. I mean, doctors are generally trusted Right. More so than other people, just in society in general, and especially when it comes to this issue, when women are trying to navigate these decisions, they need a trusted voice, and so it's really interesting to have doctors who can speak into the issues Right. Specifically. Do the doctors that you guys represent, do they feel alone a lot, or do they feel like there's actually, once they start talking to other fellow, you know, doctors who see women and their babies, do they kind of talk to them and are like, oh, wait, actually, you know, they find that there are more pro life doctors than they maybe would expect?
Rebecca Weaver:I think it's the latter, yes. And I think it's honestly a mix because I think if you're practicing in a certain state, in certain states in our country, right? Mhmm. You're probably a little more prone to feel alone. Yeah.
Rebecca Weaver:And even if you're in a pro life state, and maybe you're in a hospital system that doesn't lean that way, you know, but I think being part of Ablog helps give that sense of camaraderie and, you know, joining a webinar and seeing all those other faces or coming to the conference and seeing how many other people from your state are also practicing in a life affirming way helps them have that True. That reassurance.
Megan Hinojos:True. Important is it for conscious protections for doctors? For those doctors who are pro life? What protections are there for them to not have to perform abortions, and just what protections are there for them?
Rebecca Weaver:Yeah. Conscience protections are huge. It's a priority for APLOG action to protect conscience at the state level and federal level because without them, you're gonna lose quality and quantity of medical professionals. And and one thing we feel really passionately about is a little bit semantics, but we don't like to use the word provider. Okay.
Rebecca Weaver:Because provider has this connotation of a vending machine. Like you the patient comes in and asks for something and you give it. And that's not what being a practitioner of medicine is about. Right? Like, go into that because you're passionate, you're conviction driven, you're gonna have conscience pulls and and sincerely held beliefs, and those should impact how you practice medicine.
Rebecca Weaver:And so at the federal level, there are several protections for medical professionals institutions to not have to perform abortion. Now the hard thing with those is they're kind of they're they're retroactive, and they're not very enforceable. Okay. And so that's why state level protections are so important and why that's a priority for us to to further enforce those federal protections and then make sure they're implemented at the state level as well.
Megan Hinojos:Yeah, absolutely. Mean, it's part of the doctor's vows to do no harm. Right. So kind of thinking about how that comes to a head in different cases is really interesting. And how can we provide that conscience, you know, protections for doctors is really important when they have that conflict.
Megan Hinojos:From a medical perspective, can you explain what an induced abortion is? And how is it different from miscarriage, ectopic pregnancy, just all of those things?
Rebecca Weaver:Yeah. That's such an important question because there's so much misinformation about it. Yep. So an induced abortion, as defined by the CDC, intends the death of the fetal patient. So intends the death of the of the preborn child.
Rebecca Weaver:I think that makes it really helpful and clear of what is an induced abortion. So that's an induced abortion. If the intent is to come out of the procedure with a a preborn child who is no longer alive. That is very different than a miscarriage. Right?
Rebecca Weaver:In a miscarriage, the baby dies spontaneously without any intervention, anything like that. And then, like, an ectopic pregnancy is a situation where the baby implants outside of the uterus and so they aren't going to survive and can actually be very life threatening for the mother. And so those are very different. Even a medical emergency, like those are all very different. Even if the procedure used in some of these different things is the same, the intent is really what matters.
Rebecca Weaver:And so we really like the CDC definition because it makes it so clear about what is the intent of the induced abortion.
Megan Hinojos:Yeah. Absolutely. There's a few different types of abortions. Can you walk us through the different types?
Rebecca Weaver:Sure. So yeah. And I think something else just to kind of clarify with that is miscarriage in medical terminology is called spontaneous abortion.
Megan Hinojos:Mhmm.
Rebecca Weaver:And I think that post Dobbs Mhmm. Intentionally, that language has been conflated and has tried to confuse people. Now that language has always
Megan Hinojos:been
Rebecca Weaver:used. But I think also now for women, if they see, like, let's say they suffer a miscarriage and they see spontaneous abortion in their chart, that could be really traumatic to see if you're like, that's not what happened Yes. And not understanding that medically that's what it means. And so that's where a doctor comes in coming in and explaining that difference.
Megan Hinojos:But Yeah.
Rebecca Weaver:But yeah. So spontaneous abortion is a miscarriage. An induced abortion is intending the death of the preborn child. And then within that, there are different methods used for different stages of pregnancy. And I'm sure we'll talk about this later, but abortion inducing drugs, you know, those are used are really only indicated up to ten weeks of pregnancy.
Rebecca Weaver:Mhmm. And when they are used later, can lead to really devastating effects for women.
Megan Hinojos:Mhmm.
Rebecca Weaver:Not to mention the preborn child, of course. Of
Megan Hinojos:So the ten weeks, so up to the ten weeks you would use the chemical abortion, so the abortion pill.
Rebecca Weaver:Or you would use a D and C.
Megan Hinojos:Okay. Can you explain a little bit about what that is?
Rebecca Weaver:Sure. So D and C stands for Dilation and Curettage, and this is going to be where it's more of like a suction. So the baby's very small at that point, right? And so that abortion procedure would be suctioning, removing the baby in that way. Mhmm.
Megan Hinojos:Horrible. Anything done before then, or they just go in and suck the baby out?
Rebecca Weaver:No. Nothing done before then. So it would just be be removing the baby in that way. Okay. And I think that goes to, and we'll talk about this as we talk about the second, you know, the abortion procedure used for second trimester and
Megan Hinojos:later. Mhmm.
Rebecca Weaver:You know, know pre born babies feel pain. Mhmm. They have the brain connectivity, they have the nervous system sensing ability to feel pain. And, you know, this is really hard to talk about, but this is a hard issue of that they know that when a baby when when an abortion is happening, like babies are squirming away from from that procedure happening, from that suctioning, or from that tool. So it's so hard to talk about, but I think it's important for us to know because so often we just hear this is a clump of cells, it's not a big deal, and it is a big deal.
Rebecca Weaver:It's life changing.
Megan Hinojos:Well, the babies don't have a voice, so we have to talk about what's happening to them, for them.
Rebecca Weaver:So, yes. Okay. So to your point, yes. So you would either use abortion pills or DNC, and then that's you'd use a DNC maybe up to the end of the first trimester.
Megan Hinojos:Okay.
Rebecca Weaver:Second trimester, you would use a D and E, dilation and evacuation. And this is gonna be what you would hear of, like, a dismemberment abortion. So where the baby is torn apart limb from limb and then removed from the from the woman's uterus. Now in certain states, like where you have a dismemberment abortion ban, they would require that the baby be injected with something that would end their life before that dismemberment procedure would happen. So it doesn't stop the abortion happening, but is is sort of more humane, right, of of of at least not dismembering a living human being.
Rebecca Weaver:Mhmm. So alive. Right. Yeah. Exactly.
Rebecca Weaver:So so that would be a second trimester abortion. And then the last would be partial birth abortion. It would be kind of the common phrase we would use for it. That's a DNX, and and that is where the baby is partially delivered and then killed. So they're they're like out coming out of the uterus when their life has ended, which is why that is just the most horrifying and federally prohibited.
Rebecca Weaver:It's a totally viable, pretty much Yes. Full term baby. Yes. At this point, depending on your institution, a baby can survive at twenty two weeks. And so you're in the second trimester at that point.
Megan Hinojos:Oh, yeah.
Rebecca Weaver:So this is babies that are alike. They can totally survive outside of the womb. They are nearly fully developed, if not fully. Mhmm. So, yes, very tragic It's and horrifying.
Megan Hinojos:Yeah. Horrifying to talk about. So important because it's happening, and here in New Mexico, we have virtually no restrictions on abortion whatsoever, and a lot of people think, oh, those later term abortions are not happening. Yes, they are.
Rebecca Weaver:Yes.
Megan Hinojos:They're happening here in our state, and it's a reality for babies, and nobody wants to talk about it. And it seems very grisly and horrible to think about, but if no one else is going to talk about it, someone has to stand up for them.
Rebecca Weaver:Right.
Megan Hinojos:Can you tell us when an abortion might be considered medically necessary, if ever? So, at Ablog, we
Rebecca Weaver:would say an abortion is never medically necessary, and let me explain why. Because that is a very Again, that's a huge conversation in our current world. So oftentimes, let's say there's a medical emergency where the mother the mother's either life or major bodily function is in danger. And so kind of in that moment, instead of being symbiotic, like the mother and child kind of feel like they're at odds. Mhmm.
Rebecca Weaver:And so the abortion, ending that preborn child's life, is not the answer. Instead, we would say a maternal fetal separation is the answer. So what that means is oftentimes when these situations occur, it's gonna be around or past that twenty two week mark we talked about where the baby can survive outside the womb. And so a maternal fetal separation means you would induce labor early, and so you would save the mother's life in that way, and you would also do everything available to help that that post viable baby survive and oftentimes would be able to do so. Now we would still say that pre that viability line of about twenty two weeks of maternal fetal separation is what you should do as well.
Rebecca Weaver:Mhmm. Even if, in that case, you can foresee that the the baby is not going to survive because they're just not old enough yet. They're just not viable yet. And so even in that case, we would say you should not go in and intentionally end that baby's life. Instead, you go through the delivery, you protect mom, you do everything you can for baby.
Rebecca Weaver:Mhmm. In this way, it is life affirming. It is not ending a baby's life prematurely. Mhmm. And it is also much more humane and much better honestly for a mother's mental health.
Rebecca Weaver:To to go through that process of delivery and know that she did everything she could for her child and loved them at every moment through their premature premature death because that was necessitated to protect the mother's life.
Megan Hinojos:For sure. It gives the baby dignity Yeah. In their death, and if they can't survive, it gives the mother time to say goodbye if it's pre viability. But yeah, mean, gives the baby dignity. It treats the baby like a human, like it is.
Megan Hinojos:You don't go in and kill the baby, deliver the baby, and yeah. A lot of times, the stories you hear about medical emergencies are post viability, which is really interesting because that seems to be a big talking point. Oh, in medical emergencies, we need to have that abortion access available, but most of the time the baby can be delivered, and most of the time the baby can be okay.
Rebecca Weaver:So we don't need
Megan Hinojos:to go in and kill the baby, we can deliver the baby.
Rebecca Weaver:Right, and the other thing too is that when that happens, often in these cases where it's a maternal fetal separation, and, you know, there's a question like, well, is abortion medically necessary? The reason we would well, another reason we would indicate doing a maternal fetal separation is that that inducing of labor is actually gonna happen a lot faster oftentimes than the process of preparing for an abortion. Not always. Mhmm. But oftentimes, especially, like we said, the majority of these cases that are gonna be later in gestation, the preparation for delivery can be a lot more expedited when the mother's life is, you know, imminently at risk, or even foreseeably at risk, or her, or something, a major organ or something like that.
Rebecca Weaver:So that's another good reason to use it beyond, obviously, the life affirming and giving dignity and all of that.
Megan Hinojos:Definitely. So if we're talking about a baby that was, let's say, 25, and we have a mom who's going through something and we need to do that maternal fetal separation, they were to do abortion at that time, they would still have to dilate mom and deliver the baby, they would just be delivering a dead baby Right. Instead of an alive baby Right. That would be treated with dignity and given the chance to survive.
Rebecca Weaver:Right. And twenty five weeks, like, right, that's close to that line of where we, at this point, can take care of a baby, and obviously depending on the institution. Yes. But, yes. Right.
Rebecca Weaver:It still goes to the point of you're not the goal isn't to produce a dead baby. The goal is to protect the mom and do everything you can for that baby. Whether that Yes. Whether that is able, you're able to at 25. Right?
Rebecca Weaver:You do everything you can.
Megan Hinojos:We hear a lot right now about red states and the laws that they're passing post Roe when it comes to abortion restrictions and the conversation surrounding these medical providers who apparently have no idea how to navigate these new laws. Can you tell us a little bit about how those laws are impacting doctors as they treat miscarriages and ectopic pregnancies and just that whole, all those laws impacting doctors?
Rebecca Weaver:Gosh. The misinformation is crazy. Yes. And I think some of it is intentional Mhmm. And some of it isn't.
Rebecca Weaver:Some of it is confusion. One priority for Apologue Action actually is continuing medical education in these red pro life states so that there isn't any confusion. You know? Indicate Texas actually recently passed a law like this of saying like, okay. Well, if there is confusion, we're gonna have continuing medical education explaining what you can do, what you can't do.
Rebecca Weaver:Here's how you practice under the law. Mhmm. For for most OB GYNs, post Roe, nothing changed as far as how they treat miscarriage, how they treat ectopic pregnancy, even how you treat medical emergencies. Nothing changed because those treatments are still completely legal in red pro life states that have these strong pro life laws. No state prohibits intervention if a woman's life is in danger.
Rebecca Weaver:No state prosecutes women for seeking or obtaining an abortion. No state prohibits treatment for miscarriage, treatment for ectopic pregnancy, and and states that have a that medical emergency exception, it's gonna be things like the life of the mother and if her major bodily function is is in danger. And it never is about being imminent. It's not like, oh my gosh. The woman's dying right now.
Rebecca Weaver:It's even if it's foreseeable. Like, if the woman has has come into the hospital and say she has sepsis Mhmm. Okay. That's very serious. You take it very seriously.
Rebecca Weaver:And at that moment, maybe she's not about to die. But if you can foresee this is gonna get bad and her life's gonna be in danger, you can act now. And that's true in every state that has these pro life laws. And so that's, I think, a huge piece of misinformation that is being spread, that doctors are having to change how they practice. The only thing doctors are having to change how they practice is if they performed an induced abortion where they were going into intentionally end that preborn child's life.
Megan Hinojos:With that intention. Right. That's the important component. It's confusing, I think, people who would be pro choice, pro abortion, like to use that word, like we were talking about earlier, of induced abortion versus spontaneous abortion. And they say, Well, it says abortion on my medical records, therefore the doctors can be confused and say, Oh, I can't perform this because it's coded as an abortion, when that's absolutely not true.
Megan Hinojos:Right. And I don't think anyone is confused about when it is going in and intentionally ending that life.
Rebecca Weaver:And I think for doctors that are concerned, another thing is that, you know, it's been, what, four years since Roe was overturned. Mhmm. No doctors have been prosecuted for illegally or for for illegally performing an abortion under the state's pro life laws. So obviously, we have situations of doctors from one state shipping pills into another state. That's very different.
Rebecca Weaver:Yes. If a doctor is in good faith, caring for a woman who they believe is in danger and her life's in danger or something like that, there's no cases of doctors being prosecuted for that because states are cognizant of that Mhmm. And are trying to ensure that doctors have the leeway to practice the way they need to, but also protecting women and preborn children. Yeah. Absolutely.
Rebecca Weaver:Speaking of the abortion pill, can you tell us how it works? Yeah. For sure. So the abortion pill is a two pill regimen. The first pill is mifepristone, and the second is misoprostol.
Rebecca Weaver:It was approved in The United States in 2000. So it's been around for a while now. And when it was first approved, it was approved up to seven weeks gestation and lots of safeguards in place. So, like, multiple visits to the doctor before and after. You had to take the pills while you were there with the doctor, all kinds of stuff.
Rebecca Weaver:Then in 2016, a lot of those regulations were loosened. Now it could be used up to 10. The reporting that had been in place for deaths or adverse events, most of that reporting was removed. So now it's only if a death occurs. So we don't know how many adverse events are happening because of abortion pills in our country.
Rebecca Weaver:And then, obviously, in 2020 with COVID, no longer was in person dispensing required. You could just order the pills online. You didn't have to see a doctor in person. You didn't have to get an ultrasound to make sure that you didn't have an ectopic pregnancy, all these different things. So the the I'll go back to your actual question, then I'll say some other stuff.
Rebecca Weaver:But so yes. So the abortion pill, two pill regimen. So you take the mifepristone first. Mhmm. That is the pill that actually ends the baby's life.
Rebecca Weaver:It ends their life by cutting off progesterone, which is the nutrient factor for the baby. Mhmm. And so that's how the baby dies. Then you take Misoprostol a little bit later, you know, a day or so later, and that is what causes intense contractions that cause you to actually deliver the baby. So this is a these are very powerful drugs.
Rebecca Weaver:They are currently being dispensed online without supervision, in which is besides the huge fact that a child is is dying. This is so dangerous for women because you are not being seen in person, so you don't know if you actually have an intrauterine pregnancy. And if you have an ectopic pregnancy, these pills will not work. And so that ectopic is gonna get is gonna grow, obviously, because the baby's growing, and that is going to lead to the mom the the ectopic pregnancy bursting and causing hemorrhaging in the mother and life threatening. So that is a very serious problem.
Rebecca Weaver:Additionally, if you don't if you aren't seen in person, you don't know how far along you are. And so if you're taking these pills past the ten weeks that is currently the the status of how far along they're approved, that becomes more and more dangerous for the mom with every additional week that she takes them. And so so it's very dangerous, and there's a lot of other contraindications as well with abortion pills. So, you know, if you're not tested for your Rh status, that can be problematic. Obviously, there's like a mental trauma component because we we know women are are essentially getting these pills and their dorm room to their home.
Rebecca Weaver:They're going through this whole process alone at home. And then when they deliver their baby, they have to deal with that and mentally and also like physically like what do I do? And often that baby is far enough along that they can tell that it's a baby, and they weren't expecting that. They were expecting it's gonna be, you know, they hear it's safer than Tylenol. It's gonna be a heavy period, and that's it.
Rebecca Weaver:And that is absolutely not what is going on. So super heartbreaking, super traumatic, and we don't we don't talk like, people don't talk about that because, again, it's grisly and yucky, but that's what's happening, and it's not fair to babies, and it's not fair to women.
Megan Hinojos:Yeah. Women's empowerment, though. Right. I believe there was a case in, was it Georgia, where a mom was pregnant with twins?
Rebecca Weaver:Yes.
Megan Hinojos:And she took the abortion pill. Can you talk a little bit about that case?
Rebecca Weaver:Yes. Yes, absolutely. So this case is a couple years old now, but similar cases this we hear all the time. Right? So Amber Thurman was her name.
Rebecca Weaver:She's from Georgia, 29 years old, pregnant with twins, and she was about nine weeks along. When obviously, Georgia has a heartbeat law. Mhmm. So she goes to North Carolina to get abortion pills. She takes the first one there, mifepristone, goes home to Georgia.
Rebecca Weaver:A day later, takes misoprostol.
Megan Hinojos:Mhmm.
Rebecca Weaver:A couple days later, she presents to the emergency room with hemorrhaging and vomiting blood, passing out. She's in critical condition. Any first year resident and ProPublica is the is the news outlet that reported this whole story, and they outlined a lot of her medical records. So that's how we know so many of these things. Yeah.
Rebecca Weaver:So she she presented to the hospital. Any first year resident seeing her would be able to tell, okay, this woman has endometriosis with retained tissue, which means that the the abortion was incomplete. Okay. So that's what that means. So so the abortion did not complete.
Rebecca Weaver:So she still has tissue that's causing a sepsis, and so her body is in critical condition because of this. So she's at the hospital. With that determination, she should have immediately been given antibiotics and a D and C, like we talked about. Neither of those were provided right away. Took some time.
Rebecca Weaver:Finally, got on antibiotics. Mhmm. Still, they talk about maybe doing a DNC tomorrow. Okay. She's, meanwhile, is getting worse.
Rebecca Weaver:Like, her organs are starting to fail. They up her antibiotics, but still, like, a DNC is what the standard of care would have been Mhmm. And she didn't get that. And so finally, like, a day and a half later, I think it's, like, twenty hours after she had presented to the hospital with these issues. Mhmm.
Rebecca Weaver:She is sent into the Operating Room for a DNC, and she dies on the Operating Table. Wow. And so, you know, this case is is they point out that it happened in Georgia. It's because she didn't have access to abortion. No.
Rebecca Weaver:That is not true. What happened is that based on what we know from what was reported, medical negligence, the worst that we've seen, and also abortion pills. Like, that is what caused her to to have the retained tissue to honestly be taking it for twins at nine weeks to have no follow-up care there in North Carolina. And and if she had been given what the standard of care was, which was antibiotics and DNC, she would likely still be alive. Yeah.
Rebecca Weaver:So the other thing too is Georgia. Right? Okay. They have a heartbeat law. Their heartbeat law says that even if the baby still has a heartbeat, if the woman's life is in danger as Amber Thurman's was Mhmm.
Rebecca Weaver:You give her D and C because you have to protect her life. And so nothing in the law prohibited them taking action to protect her. It was misinformation. It was medical negligence that caused her death, and it's just heartbreaking.
Megan Hinojos:Yeah. That's crazy. I remember when it first broke, it was all headlines.
Rebecca Weaver:Yes.
Megan Hinojos:And there was misinformation everywhere. You had to dig to find any truth, and it was just Georgia's laws killing women. Everything was obfuscated and Right. Yeah, it was a very confusing case, and used as a weapon to fight against pro life laws when really it had nothing to do with pro life laws. It was negligent doctors.
Megan Hinojos:Right. So Ablog recently conducted an undercover investigation. Right? Can you tell us a little bit about what you guys did?
Rebecca Weaver:Yes. So we did an undercover investigation by doctor Christina Francis, who is an OB GYN. She's the CEO of App Log. Mhmm. And so she went on just your normal well, I say normal.
Rebecca Weaver:Abortion pill online website. Like, any of these you can find. And she literally put in every contraindication for receiving abortion pills. So and right. She's an OB GYN.
Rebecca Weaver:She knows what all those contraindications are. So she was like a 13 year old, had had a c section with an IUD, high blood pressure, like all these things that honestly were unrealistic too. Right? Like, just not realistic. But she put in every contraindication.
Rebecca Weaver:She said she was a male at one point and they they said something like, well, you're not allowed to get these. So she just pushed the back button, changed it, and it was like, okay, and just kept moving. Oh. So obviously, that's dangerous. So got to the end, and they were like, okay.
Rebecca Weaver:Your your your case will be reviewed in, a minute. Oh, you've been approved. Here here's your way to make the payment. And so and then she got the pills. And and so really the point of this undercover video was just to show how dangerous this is and how susceptible to abuse and coercion.
Rebecca Weaver:Right? Because if you can just go on and say you're whomever and you're, you know, there's no medical oversight or protection to make sure that you're actually a woman who actually is ordering these pills for yourself. Yes. And so that was the goal of this undercover investigation is really to highlight just how dangerous this is and how how lacking medical oversight it is, and and just the potentials for abuse with it.
Megan Hinojos:Absolutely. I mean, if the whole thing is automated, anyone could go on. So men who are abusing young girls Right. Get them pregnant, or human trafficking, you just go on, order your abortion pills, and put the girl, the woman, at risk with no doctor involved anywhere. So what happened between a woman and her doctor, that's gone, it's just women getting these dangerous pills with no oversight.
Rebecca Weaver:Right. And just like undercutting everything about medicine that is important, that's a standard, right, of like informed consent. Yes. And that in person piece of at least a doctor seeing the woman and being able to maybe assess like, okay, is she okay? Like, counsel her and see, okay, like, this guy just brought her in.
Rebecca Weaver:Like Yes. Is she you know, and assessing those things, which is is a huge part of what medical professionals do as as and in their role. I'm sure that's a very hard part of what they do. But, right, taking all of that out of the conversation.
Megan Hinojos:Yes. That is insane. Can you tell us about abortion pill reversal? A lot of people don't know that this is even an option. Right.
Rebecca Weaver:And I think with the increasing usage of abortion pills so at this point, abortion inducing drugs are the majority method by which women in in The United States are having abortions. And so even, like, you know and I'm sure we'll talk about this, but, like, Texans coming to New Mexico for abortions, we're seeing that that still happens. It's slowing down. Really, the main way that women in Texas, women across the country are having abortions is by abortion inducing drugs, and they're getting them online. And so with that becoming more and more prevalent, I think it's so important for people to know about abortion pill reversal.
Rebecca Weaver:Yes. So abortionpillreversal..com is where you can go. Essentially, it's an option. You know, we hear that abortion is all about choices, women's choices. Well, this is another choice that if a woman starts the abortion Mhmm.
Rebecca Weaver:She takes that first pill and she realizes, I don't wanna do this, or I was kinda coerced in this. I don't want this. She can call that hotline. They will connect her with someone who will prescribe her progesterone, and it can have it has been tested to have the effect to kind of stop the abortion. Mhmm.
Rebecca Weaver:And hundreds of babies have been saved because of this through abortion And pill so, you know, there's ongoing scientific studies to just continue proving its efficacy. But really, it's the point of if a woman starts the abortion and she doesn't wanna continue, she has to call before she takes a second pill. Mhmm. But if she calls early enough, she can get that progesterone and reverse the course of the abortion and save her baby's life.
Megan Hinojos:Yeah. I think it's so important for women to know that that's an option, and I know a lot of people don't want people to know Right. And want women to know that that's an option. But, I mean, we're hearing stories now of men crushing abortion pills and putting them in their wife, their partner's drinks. Right.
Megan Hinojos:The abortion pill, it's so dangerous, and I don't think that people realize how prevalent all those dangers are. Yeah. How, yeah, how many there are, and just how many ways they're being abused.
Rebecca Weaver:Well, and the stories of coercion, like, not every day, that's dramatic, but certainly every week Yes. You can hear more and more stories of women who were forced to take them right, or they didn't know they were taking them. And that's so scary. And and if it is all about choice, that's not a choice at all.
Megan Hinojos:No. Yeah. No. It's so scary, and it's so dangerous. Can you tell us a little bit about birth trends since Dobbs?
Megan Hinojos:Dobbs was obviously a landmark, you know, decision when it was first introduced and or since it was introduced. And I feel like there has been so much misinformation everywhere, laws shifting, people didn't understand what Dobbs did and how things have changed since, but can you just talk us through a little bit of what you guys have been seeing in trends for birth?
Rebecca Weaver:Yeah. For sure. So I think, you know, something we hear, and it is true, is that abortions have actually increased since Dobbs. Mhmm. And that is devastating, certainly, and that I think what that really reiterates is how much work we still have to do.
Rebecca Weaver:Mhmm. And so I think I I'll just say quickly that, you know, in red states, I think there's a danger of being in a red state where you have a strong pro life law because you think you're done, and you're not done at all. Yes. Right? And versus a state like New Mexico where there's still a lot of work to do, but you know what that work looks like versus feeling like, oh, well, we've accomplished it.
Rebecca Weaver:We can rest on our laurels when that's not the case at all. Yeah. But so with that truth of that abortions have been increasing since Dobbs, one of the things that that the pro life movement has looked at is like, okay. Well, so are pro life laws actually effective? Are they saving lives?
Rebecca Weaver:And a way you can look at that is through birth numbers. Okay. And so a study actually just came out, I think, on the Dobbs anniversary this year, so June 24 Mhmm. From the Charlotte Lozier Institute looking at birth numbers. And what those numbers show is that there is a statistical significance that in pro life states, there are more births happening.
Rebecca Weaver:Wow. And so they are having an effect. Mhmm. We do know that in in Texas, for instance, under their heartbeat law, that there are a thousand babies saved every month because there are a thousand more births happening every month. Mhmm.
Rebecca Weaver:And so, yes, I mean, we know women are still coming from Texas to New Mexico to have abortions, we know they're ordering the drugs online, but we know that there are more babies being born in these pro life states. And so while the number of abortions increasing is disheartening, at least we know there is a positive life saving effect from these laws, and they're worth pursuing, and they're worth defending.
Megan Hinojos:Yeah, absolutely. That's awesome to know, because again, you hear only, oh, abortion abortion numbers are increasing, and you never hear that positive Right. That positive aspect. So that's great that there's a study to show that. Here in New Mexico, obviously our numbers are terrible, and abortions have increased since Dobbs, and it seems like since Dobbs passed and took away those Roe v Wade laws that kind of, you know, protected abortion up until twenty four weeks.
Megan Hinojos:We've only expanded our access to abortion here and stripped away all accounting, reporting laws, everything like that. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Rebecca Weaver:Yeah. Right. So so the pro of Dobbs, right, is that it returned the issue to the states Yes. Or or it returned the issue to the people. And so for now, that means state level, you know, under under kind of where we are right now.
Rebecca Weaver:But right. So that means then in states like New Mexico, it's gotten really aggressive and really really allowed laws that go very far
Megan Hinojos:Yeah.
Rebecca Weaver:And removed health and safety standards. And I think that's where, you know, I hope that Ablog can come alongside all the work that that is happening in New Mexico to try to show that removal of health and safety standards is not good for women. Mhmm. Removal of reporting of how many abortions is happening is not good for women. Like, if we if we truly care about women, even if you're not pro life, but you just care about about health for women Yep.
Rebecca Weaver:Removing common medical standards that are true for any other area of medicine, any other procedure you would get, wanting to have informed consent and parental involvement and data collection, like, those things are important just for health purposes. And so even if you you, you know, don't care about preborn life, I mean, women are already alive and and their health matters. And and so I think that's something that we at Ablog really want to help highlight is protecting the preborn child. Right? Both patients.
Rebecca Weaver:Protecting the preborn child but also women. And in states like New Mexico, highlighting the importance of those safety standards because women's health and safety matters, and those those things are not like like, laws that protecting health and safety or acquiring certain standards or acquiring data collection are not pro life. They're just pro women and making sure that common medical standards are in place. A 100%,
Megan Hinojos:for sure. I think, you know, we always hear, well, if women don't have access to abortion, they're still going get abortions, in back alley abortions. The problem is that they're going to be unsafe abortions. Can you talk a little bit about the relationship between abortion restrictions and maternal mortality?
Rebecca Weaver:Yeah. So I think that lie is so irritating because there's no such thing as a safe abortion. Even under like, a legal abortion is not a safe abortion. Mhmm. Again, without data collection, you can't know this, but we know from from other states that there are so many injuries that happen to women during a legal abortion.
Rebecca Weaver:Right? A surgical abortion where there's a perforated uterus or different things where, like, the woman then presents at the hospital and she she no longer will have the ability to have children. Maybe she even dies. Like, there are a lot of complications with legal abortions. So talking about that, well, if we if we ban abortion, it's all gonna be unsafe and illegal.
Rebecca Weaver:Okay. Yeah. It'll be illegal, but it's already unsafe.
Megan Hinojos:Yes.
Rebecca Weaver:So that's one lie. But yeah. You know, a common another common lie we have heard is that, well, in states where pro life laws are passed, maternal mortality is just skyrocketing. Okay. Our country does have a problem with maternal mortality, and that's another priority at APLOG Action is that we wanna address that.
Rebecca Weaver:Again, women's lives matter and their health matters, and we wanna address maternal mortality. The answer to that is not abortion. That's a that's a you know, feels like an easy answer that people just wanna claim and go and move on, and that's not sufficient because that's not what we see. In fact, we see with with data from certain studies that in states that have pro life laws, maternal mortality decreases. And we see this in other countries as well where they have really low abortion rates or or prohibited abortion Mhmm.
Rebecca Weaver:And they have very low maternal mortality rates. And so that that is not like, having a legal abortion is not gonna be a fix all to decrease maternal mortality. It's a multifaceted issue that we do need to address. Yes. But having abortion legal is not the answer.
Megan Hinojos:No, a 100%. I mean, that kind of blows apart the argument that has been around for decades, that if women don't have access to these abortions legally, that they're all just going be dying, you know, in back alleys with coat anchors. Right. It's crazy. We have such a culture of death, kind of here in New Mexico, with our abortion laws being so permissive.
Megan Hinojos:Again, almost no restrictions whatsoever. We're actively building abortion facilities all over the state, and our leaders are bragging about these facilities, you know, funding them. Meanwhile, maternal care is drying up all over the state. So for women here, it is easier for them to get an abortion than it is for them to get care through their pregnancy and after. Can you talk a little bit about how important it is to have that life affirming care instead of just offering abortion as the options?
Rebecca Weaver:Yeah. I mean, it goes to what we've said, right, that that pro abortion people would say like, well, this is about choice. Well, no, it's not if you're incentivizing one thing based on state tax dollars compared to another. But right. Prenatal care is crucially important for women.
Rebecca Weaver:Most women cannot afford prenatal care. It's expensive. It's hard. It's hard to take off time to go to your appointment every, you know, couple weeks, and then it gets more frequent as you're about to have that baby. That is crucial for, again, the baby's health, but again, for mom's health.
Rebecca Weaver:Yep. So important. And in a state, a rural state like New Mexico, an answer not that this is the only answer, but an answer could be like mobile prenatal units that that go out into those rural areas and help provide that care versus saying like, okay, you live an hour away. Well, you have to come in and do a two hour drive every time you need a prenatal visit. No wonder women aren't gonna do that.
Rebecca Weaver:You know? So I think it's just it's it's heartbreaking, and it's unfortunate that New Mexico leadership is choosing to prioritize abortion instead of prioritize women's health. Mhmm. And that instead of putting money behind things like access to prenatal care and postnatal care, certainly, that's super important too for women. Making sure women have the care they need, instead, they're just gonna force them down a path toward abortion.
Rebecca Weaver:A 100%.
Megan Hinojos:How could life affirming telehealth make a difference?
Rebecca Weaver:Yeah. That is huge. So oftentimes with the abortion pills available online, they talk about it's like telemed abortion or telehealth. And that's so just it is warping something that can be so good. Mhmm.
Rebecca Weaver:And it's also inaccurate to call it that because with telehealth, right, you hop on. We've all done that, especially during COVID. Right? You hop on. There's actually a medical professional on the other side talking to you.
Rebecca Weaver:You can ask questions. You get that informed consent, etcetera. With ordering the pills online, as we said with our undercover investigation, there's no doctor on the other side to answer your questions, to review, to provide medical oversight. So that's kind of that's a whole misnomer in itself. But but, yes, telehealth is is something that could be used in such a life affirming way, especially, again, in a state like New Mexico where it is rural and it's hard maybe to get to your medical professional or a hospital or something like that.
Rebecca Weaver:Just being able to hop on that call and see someone and get maybe not all your prenatal appointments need to be in person. Maybe a lot of them could be via telehealth
Megan Hinojos:Yeah.
Rebecca Weaver:Depending on your health and your pregnancy and stuff like that. So yeah, I think there's a lot of ways that technologies like telehealth can be used for such good if people would choose to use it that way.
Megan Hinojos:A 100%. I mean, hear stories all the time of women having to drive, sometimes several hours Yeah. Just to get care, and that's not something that they can do all the time. You said it's hard enough trying to get off every couple of weeks, and especially when you have to add on a long car drive.
Rebecca Weaver:Yeah, or if you have little ones already.
Megan Hinojos:Yes, yes. It's definitely a huge need, and telehealth could be a big difference, but when it's life affirming Like you mentioned earlier, we've had a huge number of Texans coming to New Mexico receive abortions. Can you talk a little bit about what you guys have been seeing trends, and just how what can we do about that whole situation?
Rebecca Weaver:Yeah. Certainly. So, yes. That is, I think, something that maybe wasn't super foreseen, maybe should have been, but wasn't. Right?
Rebecca Weaver:Of that if you pass a pro life law in a certain state, women are gonna go to a neighboring state, and then you've created states like New Mexico that are abortion tourism states. Right? So, yes, we know that Texas women come into New Mexico for abortions. Interestingly, I just saw numbers that have shown that from 2023 to 2025, the number of Texans coming to New Mexico for abortions has decreased by, like, 10,000. Oh, wow.
Rebecca Weaver:But in that time, the number of Texans staying in Texas and ordering abortion pills online has escalated. So I think, you know, even as we talk about how do we stop Texans from coming to New Mexico, how do we help make New Mexico more of a life affirming state Mhmm. While we have abortion pills so accessible, like, that's gonna be a problem no matter what kind of state you live in. And like we talked about, the day highlighting the the dangers, highlighting abortion pill reversal, all of these things because that's gonna continue to be the next fight for the pro life movement regardless of what state you're in. But right.
Rebecca Weaver:I think it's just if we with with addressing Texans coming to New Mexico for abortions, having partnerships between Texas and New Mexico pregnancy centers and groups and on all of that to make sure we're touching those women's lives before they make the travel over here or that they know that there's care. When you get back to Texas, you have a complication. There's care for you. There's abortion pill reversal. There's these different things.
Rebecca Weaver:And then working simultaneously to help all the efforts you guys are all doing here in New Mexico to make New Mexico a pro life state Yes. Or a life affirming state where it's not the abortion tourism place for Texans to go. Like, they have to find, you know if if Texas if New Mexico was removed from that, obviously, we still have other states nearby that are are very pro death. Mhmm. But it's just slowly shipping away at that.
Rebecca Weaver:And also, it just think the hardest part for us is changing hearts and changing minds, and that's gonna be a lot longer than changing laws. But laws help us change hearts and minds, so it's an important fight to be part of.
Megan Hinojos:Yeah. A 100%. What gives you hope when you look at the future of life affirming care, just across the country, and with the doctors that you work with?
Rebecca Weaver:Yeah. That's such a good question. I think one is, like, we talked about seeing that these the number of births is actually increasing in pro life states. That is definitely just emphasizes that those laws are worth pursuing and fighting for and defending because babies' lives are being saved. But also seeing for Aflac, seeing that next generation of medical trainees that they want to be good doctors.
Rebecca Weaver:They want to provide care, and they're not they're not worried about only staying in pro life states to be safe. Like, are they want to go into other states. They want women and babies across our country to have good care. Mhmm. And they they are are joining hands and encouraged and continuing to practice in that way and continuing to pursue hard specialties like OB GYN.
Rebecca Weaver:Mhmm. That is a hard specialty to go into if you're life affirming, but they're willing to do it and willing to fight for their conscience and all of these things. That really gives me hope and encourages me for the future. And I hope encourages everyone who listens to of like, there is a next generation cares about practicing in a life affirming way. And and Aplog wants to be a resource for patients who want to connect with those doctors as well.
Megan Hinojos:Yeah, I've heard that the younger generations are more pro life Yes, than the previous the Yeah,
Rebecca Weaver:and I we see that even in the medical, then as the next generation of medical professionals coming up too.
Megan Hinojos:I think, you know, as technology improves, and we're able to see babies younger and younger, we're kind of seeing, Hey, that baby that we thought it was okay, it not, it was just a couple of cells a few years ago, is now a viable baby that can survive. And I think we'll just continue to become more and more pro life as time goes on. So that's really encouraging. Well thank you Rebecca for joining us on the Chile Wire. Really appreciate you taking the time to come out and see us.
Megan Hinojos:And that is all for today. Thank you for having me.