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Welcome to Dig In, the podcast brought to you by the minds at Dig Insights. We're interviewing some of the most inspiring brand professionals in marketing, innovation, and insights to discover the story behind the story of their most exciting innovations.
Jess (00:16)
All right, everybody. Welcome to the Dig In podcast. I've been really looking forward to this conversation. Today I'm joined by Anish Raul. He's senior marketing lead at Sling TV, which is part of the Dish Network. Anish, thank you so much for joining today.
Anish (00:30)
Thanks for having me, Jess.
Jess (00:31)
Yeah, we're going to jump in with an impromptu question so you haven't seen this from me. What's a hobby that you would get into if money and time were no issue?
Anish (00:41)
I think would be a full-time content creator. I love making films. I love telling stories using social media. And for the longest time, I feel like, I just wish I could do this full-time. hey,
I'm in a job that allows me to blend some of those
skills and skill keeps me happy. So here I am.
Jess (00:59)
That's awesome. I love that. Well, we are going to dig into that next. But before we do that, tell us a little bit about your background and your role today.
Anish (01:08)
For sure. So I've been working in marketing for close to a decade now. I started as an advertising copywriter, moved into social media marketing, which is where content creation happened. I have led large teams of writers, ideas, strategists, moved into leading creative production teams. So video editors, just promo producers.
doing a bunch of work mainly for a lot of streaming and technology companies, launched a few home-grown streaming companies back in India, worked with Netflix India for some time as a part
WPP,
having lucky enough to be a part of some pretty cool campaigns, which have won some awards. then Sling TV reached out to me. They wanted me to lead a merchandising and web capabilities for sling.com, is where our customers come, find the package that they want, figure out what programming that they're interested in, and hopefully make a purchase and start watching TV.
that's being a journey.
It's been an amazing ride so far and I'm so glad we met over the course of it.
Jess (02:17)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I love that passion that you can tell is part of what you bring to the job. And that's not a small job, what you do. So let's dig into that. I would love to learn a little bit more about your time at Sling. And our listeners, Anish, they really do crave inspiration from other leaders. And I think one of the ways to inspire is to tell a story. And you've got a really cool story of building a capability at Sling. You are integral in developing a capability that created
personalized creative for digital in a really novel way. So I'd love for you to go to the beginning. What originated
idea? What
Anish (02:51)
Sounds good.
Jess (02:52)
you to do things differently?
Anish (02:55)
So when I first joined Slinky, we were facing a few challenges. The biggest one, like I think most companies face this, most companies have a creative pipeline backlog and that makes sense, right? Because in Korea's digital marketing landscape, you...
are expected to be present at every touch point on the user's journey. So you want to have a creative for when the user's browsing on social media. You want to have a creative for when the user's probably reading a blog and you want to bring their attention and bring them over to the website. So I mainly been focused on the website part. And even then, we were facing the same challenges that a lot of our industry peers were facing, which is primarily content production is expensive.
It's also a very time intensive activity and turning content around at a breakneck speed can often be difficult, especially when most of your competitors and you are pulling from the same stock image libraries. then on top of that, you've sourced the right image, have got to edit it to make sure that it fits your brand story. You also have to then make various
size adaptations to make sure that it fixed a website or any of the platforms that you're managing. So that was one of the initial challenges that I observed when I joined the team. And this was right around the time when Gen AI was sort of becoming a big buzzword. And naturally, I am very curious. I like to experiment with technologies and just really put myself out there and learn as much as I can. And I started exploring
these GEN AI image generation tools back in early 2023. I went
a few leading products back then, which I think will make Journey, Stable Diffusion, Adobe launched Firefly, which was also pretty promising.
immediately I realized that this can help solve a very big problem for our team, which is we can make unique visuals.
which are unlike any other stock images out there, which can be really dialed into the brand that we want to bring to life and really help us cut down this time it takes to go to market with these creators. So I started working with our amazing leadership. I work with Jinx Jho Laker, who's our SVP of marketing. And he's also a very encouraging and pro-innovation leader.
And he was fascinated by it as well, because, you know, now as a web merchandiser, you really want to have imagery, which is a character which engages the user and can hopefully ask to sell a product by the end of it. So we started experimenting with those. We found some really cool outputs that we can bring to life using this technology
that started a whole new era of, okay, how does this technology work?
How can we use it in a way which is legally safe and skills allows us to pretty much do what we do, which is to create great visuals. So we worked with the fantastic legal team at our company, collaborated on understanding the technology, how we can have sort of a framework to go about it. And then we started deploying these at scale. That's what happened. And like I said,
The most empowering thing about using Gen AI technologies, you're not limited by production budgets. You're not limited by getting the right talent, hiring a great photographer, getting a studio. None of that. You just need a vision. You need a few keywords and then you can pretty much dial in and get the output that you need. Which is great for personalization because every person is different. You can't have one...
one size fits all approach. Every person reacts to different type of visuals. So speaking about sling, if you're a sports watcher, you will resonate with a certain theme, with certain physical
certain qualities that we probably are limited by when it comes to stock images or stock footage. This really allowed us to bypass that.
when you're thinking about, hey, I want to make a landing page for football, or I want to make a landing page for basketball, right? And suddenly through the season, you realize, women's basketball is really getting popular. And like most content distribution companies, you are faced with IP challenges. You can't really use the intellectual property of the programmers. So then can you be really smart about it? Can you create imagery which is striking, which does not infringe any copyright, but
yet speaks to those very specific interests that can resonate with the user. So going back to the basketball example, we had some really cool images featuring men's basketball players. And then Caitlin Link-Scarick had an amazing run last year. She really rose to popularity. And WNBA started seeing a lot of traction amongst TV viewers. So we used that opportunity to spin up some imagery featuring women's basketball players.
Jess (07:44)
Sure.
Anish (08:06)
to also merchandise tag programming and that really helped us move the needle, get more people interested in watching the sport.
Jess (08:14)
Yeah, well, let me dig into that a little bit more because I think this role of personalization, which has been a theme in marketing for the last decade or maybe even more, but now with the prevalence of AI, do you think it will become a consumer expectation that their content be hyper personalized? Do you think that our sort of bar as people is going to raise given the technology advances?
Anish (08:38)
I think, yeah, at a base level, personalization really solves the way I understand it. It solves the problem that it makes it easy for me to find things which I like. naturally, when I'm shopping on Amazon and Amazon suggests, hey, other users also like this item or you may be interested in this, it saves me the time and effort to go about finding that thing. Also, it feeds into my curiosity as a shopper where, you know,
the user could think that, hey, if the platform thinks this might interest me and effects within the realm of your interests, of course, you can check it out
it can catch your attention and attention is the first step towards getting someone to make a purchase. yeah, to your point, I think we are in an era where everything is so personalized, right? Like when you go to TikTok or on Instagram, every reel you see or every TikTok video you see is really tuned into your interests.
when you open Netflix, my Netflix feed is going to look way different than yours. And what's so interesting is even when we maybe pitch the same title, let's say Narcos, Narcos on my Netflix account will look different than it will look on yours because the Netflix algorithm will try to figure out, this person probably likes,
Cars
so it will try
feature a thumbnail with a car from the show and you know Guys scanning next to it and it will try to switch the same title differently to you. So I think
Yeah, the bar will go up because personalization just makes finding things so much easier. And if there's anything all of us want, there's one less decision to make about, one less action to find the right product or right piece of content. yeah, for sure, it will change. It has changed the way shop and it will only continue to get better. Now, at what point does it get creepy?
Jess (10:15)
Yeah. Yeah.
Anish (10:34)
Thanks for marketers like us to decide like how much do you really want a guy linked to the signals available to us and and customize the message. That's where the art of personalization would come in.
Jess (10:44)
Yeah, that's a really important point. Absolutely. you're experimenting with some of these Gen. AI tools, you know, over a year ago, you find this new way to develop creative for your company. I assume there's a lot of efficiencies that you're able to bring because of that. But I'm sure it wasn't easy along the way. Did you have any trip ups, any barriers you faced where it was like, man, I don't think this is going to work.
Anish (11:08)
For sure, think and that goes beyond
just
company I think one of the
of the biggest challenges when it comes to a new technology, especially something as powerful as Gen AI is
do we use this and how is it gonna take my job away? know and then When you're faced with concerns like that, it just comes around educating informing
and really gaining the trust of your stakeholders or your customers involved. You want to be clear or you want to be transparent enough to call out when Gen AI is involved, especially when
it plays a key role in decision making.
These past few days, I've been watching a lot of videos on YouTube.
which teach you how to make UGC videos using AI, which is kind of scary. The whole point of UGC is it's a real person, it's a real endorsement based off of real experiences. But imagine being, you know, just scrolling on the internet in your face with a really compelling pitch from another human being like you, and you realize that this person does not exist. And then that may cause a cross-reference. So I think we're still...
We're still learning to build a trusting relationship with AI and it's difficult because it promises the world. How much can it deliver? How ethical or morally sound it will be? We have to find out in the days to come. But it always is a good idea to fall back on some best practices that we've been following in advertising since the start of time. Honestly, transparency and really being candid about what you're trying to do here.
Jess (12:51)
and limiting the creepy factor, basically.
Anish (12:57)
Some AI junctions can be creepy like you remember when it first came out and it would get the fingers all messed up or the teeth all messed up. my god, what a nightmare.
Jess (13:05)
Yeah, no, the imagery in particular, right? It's come a long way even in the past few months. And so you've implemented this new capability. How did you know that that was a success? Because frankly, taking this big of a swing, it could not have worked out. And so I'm just curious, you know, how did you say, I know that I did something good here. When did you know?
Anish (13:28)
To us it sounded like a no brainer because it was really like going back to the challenge we were trying to solve for. It enabled us to go to market at a way faster speed than we would have ever been before this technology. You no longer need to commission a photo shoot or go you save money. You no longer have to download, subscribe to the stock library and then process those images on top, saving you time and money.
You no longer are limited by the same kind of images of a football player, which all of your competitors have access to. Again, which leads us to create unique imagery, is
very specific and unique to our brand. all of these factors, and when we saw it not impact our conversion rates, when we saw it allowing us to merchandise a lot more events on the site,
or go expose a lot more people to the things that we can provide. And then that translated into more transactions, more customer acquisitions. And that's when we knew we are onto something really cool. And then our amazing, talented, creative team took over that technology and really started playing with it, allowing us to create some iconic campaigns. Because you're no longer limited by all these challenges. You no longer have to scout a talent.
Jess (14:45)
Yeah.
Sure.
Anish (14:50)
Get a studio, get a photo shoot gun, get process goes images. It's just a lot.
Jess (14:56)
It's a lot of supply chain you were able to avoid. So let's dig in a little further on the GEN.AI because I think it's something that clearly you have a passion for, you have a curiosity for, and I think you also firmly believe that it will transform the marketing function. So talk to me more about that. What do you think will continue to change and what should marketers be thinking about?
Anish (14:59)
Correct. Correct.
It's a great question actually. think fundamentally it democratizes creation. again, going back to the point, you no longer need to have great budgets to bring your idea to life. You no longer need access to high quality animators or illustrators or all these technicians which rightly so, they cost a lot of money because they have devoted a lot of time to developing their craft and I still don't think to a large extent we are close to replacing those
amazing technicians but it really what it allows you to do is as a marketer bring your idea to life and make give it a tangible form so when you when you when you go to your CMO or you go to your brand team like hey this is what's possible and instead of going to them with a deck and relying
imagination and your storytelling and
pitching skills to bring the idea to life. Now you have a tangible image or a video that is an embodiment of the idea that you're trying to pitch. And I think that makes imagining those ideas a lot more easier. So it removes the barrier to production and bringing your ideas to life. The second thing is it just allows us to do a lot more.
It
you as a marketer to talk to your analytic school.
and ask some really insightful questions and get some answers back. I was a part of a pilot program for Adobe's Gen AI Assisting, which does exactly what I said. You can ask, hey, what are the top customer segments
would be interested in this package that I'm trying to promote? Or which are a few customer segments that could likely unsubscribe in the next three months? You get all of those insights, which previously, again, would take a team of data analysts weeks to...
to sort of give you a solid answer. Again, all of these are great promises. Does it really deliver on it? Not yet. But I think we are very close to unlocking a future where a marketing individual contributor or a marketing team member will no longer be limited to just their roles. They'll have enough of an empowerment with these tools to go ahead and at least have exploratory conversations and figure out if there's any insights that they can bring to the table without, you know.
really having to get a large team involved and having to carve out that chunk of time. Now obviously, how much do you trust this output? That's for you to decide and for your subject matter experts to validate. But you're no longer just a guy or a girl in a marketing team. You really have access to creating great creative. You have access to some great insights. Even on the web front, you've got some great tools which promise to personalize experiences on the fly.
I think that's a huge promise that could change the way we function and we bring our work to life.
Jess (18:10)
Yeah.
And your passion about this is palpable. You can just sense the energy that you have for it. And I'm curious, I'm sure a lot of marketers especially are listening and going, well, how do I get started if I want to experiment with some of these things? But where do I start? What tips would you have for folks in that position?
Anish (18:35)
One of my favorite resources is Reddit. So I add the word Reddit at the end of every query because it's just real people talking about their experiences, or at least I think so. Now, again, like any other platform, Reddit also has bugs and you know, skipping all of that. think Reddit is a great platform. Medium is a great platform. TikTok, YouTube, there's so many resources. You just got to ask the right question. And that question can be, how do I create a realistic image?
Jess (18:42)
Mm-hmm.
Anish (19:03)
using Gen Ai How do I
a video using word prompts and that will take you down a rabbit hole like it did for me and you will discover some really cool things on the way.
Jess (19:17)
Well, those are great tips. And I think just having that curiosity and experimentation vibe is probably core to it. And I am curious, thinking about the applications of GEN.AI specifically in streaming and other technology advances, what's your hot take on the future of the streaming industry? Because man, has it changed just in the past two years. What's next?
Anish (19:39)
I agree.
I think a similar thing happened in the 80s when
to monopolize the ownership of movie theaters if a Paramount is a movie producer, they can only distribute those movies in a Paramount theater That sort of caused the monopoly which
kind of
analogous to what's happening right now. Like someone like an HBO who is a content producer has their own platform which used to exclusively distribute their content only to their platform. Same for Netflix, right? Today we are in a scenario where content producers are distributing their content on various other platforms like Yellowstone, which is a Paramount production.
can be watched from other platforms outside of Paramount Plus. So eventually I think, my personal take, where the industry is heading is there's going to be a democratization of distribution. Whichever platform has the best experience, much like a movie character, whichever movie character gives you the best experience.
you will choose that theater or that platform to consume your content in. So it boils down to the popcorn, the drinks, the ambience, the user experience, the personalized suggestions, the price point, and whichever platform can guarantee the best experience, I think would win. Again, content is, you can't take content out of the equation. Without the content, there's no motivation to go to that platform,
Jess (21:02)
Yeah.
Anish (21:10)
In a day and age where most content is available on most platforms, I think experience will come out on top as a champion decision maker.
Jess (21:19)
Well, I'll tell you from a personal standpoint as a consumer, I think that that plays out really realistically with NFL and like how many different methods you now have to access to watch a football game is insane. And it causes such frustration like every weekend in our household.
if you kind of, if you solve that experience by saying, here's the one-stop shop, Jess, whatever game you want to watch.
Here you go. I will pay whatever it takes for this. OK, I'm just saying I'm putting it out there. This is a plea to the industry to please simplify this process for our family. Yeah, I think that's that's an interesting take on it. And and I really do like how you brought it back to the customer experience. And that's why I'm throwing out this note of empathy. It's like the end of the day, you want your customers to have a seamless experience where they feel like your brand gets them and serves them the personalized experience and content that makes sense for their life. That's what
Anish (22:07)
Agreed.
Jess (22:12)
The dream is as a marketer, right? And so I love the examples you've given of leveraging technology to help you do that. So thank you for those stories.
Anish (22:19)
Yeah, it's like, you know, you want to hang out with a person who knows you and understands you. Then a person you have to explain yourself every single time you meet. It's just not a great experience.
Jess (22:30)
Right. Yep. That's exactly it. So we're going to go to the final dig. This is all about you as a consumer, as a person out there in the world. So feel free to share your genuine responses on these questions.
the last product or service you bought on impulse?
Anish (22:44)
So I discovered this guy on YouTube last year. He had never made a video before this. It was his first video and he made a fork from
he used
rock salt to make a fork
and that video
viral.
He disappeared from YouTube for a whole year. It was such a great video that I must have seen it three or four times over the last year. And a few months ago, he came back for his second video in which he
Jess (23:08)
Mm-hmm.
Anish (23:15)
us, hey, you remember that product with millions of views, it's better now and you can actually buy it and I will ship it out just in time for Christmas.
and I had to get it. It was priced really well. was $25. So the price point was just right for me to not think twice about it. And in a few weeks, I will be eating steak with a fork made out of salt. And hopefully that changes my life in some way.
at least that's the
Jess (23:43)
Okay,
please report back because I don't know what's happening, but I like this idea a lot and I would love to see how that plays out.
Anish (23:51)
His name
Jess (23:52)
Yeah.
Anish (23:53)
Ben
He made a video called, What If Forks Were Made of Salt? It has 10 million views. It was his first ever YouTube video. And I was sold. I think I'm curious to find out what if forks were made of salt and I have one coming in a few weeks. So I'll report back.
Jess (24:09)
That's amazing. Please, please do. I love that. So it sounds like the price point was right for that fork made out of salt. speaking of price, what's a category or brand that you could rationalize any price point for? You just have to have it in your life.
Anish (24:24)
The brand that I'm obsessed with these days has to be Rolex. Now, again, I don't see myself buying it anytime soon or if at all, but the legacy that it has and the engineering that they promise, it appeals to me. It's such a simply a complicated function of keeping time and you fit all of that in a small case that you can wear on wrist. It fascinates me. I used to be an Apple Watch user for the longest time.
Jess (24:32)
Mm-hmm.
Anish (24:52)
But something clicked and I started watching a lot of these watchmaking videos and that just really made me appreciate the engineering that goes into bringing a mechanical watch to life.
So, yep, I don't have a million dollars nor do I think I would ever spend them on a watch. But if I could.
Jess (25:13)
Nice to think about, nice to consider. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, exactly, yeah. Well, speaking of fantasies, brands have different personalities. And what's a brand that you would date and one that you would marry? And they don't have to be the same brand.
Anish (25:15)
You need fantasies, right?
I would love to marry Netflix because it will always tell me great stories, it will know what I'm interested in, if I'm having a bad day, hey here's a great story to cheer you up. If I'm feeling adventurous, here's a story about a serial killer and so yeah I think I love stories and Netflix does a really great job of bringing stories to you. So that would be one brand I would love to marry. A brand I would like to date.
a Sony or a Marshall because I love music and these companies make products that sound really great. So hey guys, music for life. That would be a fun date.
Jess (25:54)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I feel like the combination of brands and products you just shared here at the end is like a really fun little collection of some interesting artifacts. So excellent perspective there. I feel like you're creating an interesting dinner party with these
Anish (26:18)
Yeah,
Jess (26:19)
So what keeps you inspired at work, Anish? Obviously you love what you do. What is it about it?
Anish (26:23)
it may sound very cliche, but I love solving customer problems because I'm a customer myself and every time I experience something on another e-commerce site, I'm like, hmm.
I wonder if our customers are facing the same problem and if I was in their shoes, how would I try to solve for it? And then you get into the testing and experimentation and then you, you know, either you see your gut being proved right or you learn something new about your customers and that's pretty exciting. And then you take those insights and translate them into a personalization or a web merchandising or a user
which,
you can actually see those numbers which your work bring to the table. And that is really inspiring, like small changes, small copy changes, design tweaks, or something as big as changing the way you bring images to your site. And seeing those impacts, that really motivates me.
Jess (27:17)
Yeah,
Anish (27:18)
those results.
Jess (27:17)
well, fantastic,
stories and lessons to be learned. So really appreciate your time. Thanks so much for joining us today.
Anish (27:25)
Thank you,