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Canny Conversations Podcast by Safaraz Ali Social Entrepreneur, CEO of Pathway Group and proud Birmingham business leader, where he shares his insights and experiences on entrepreneurialism, having a growth mindset and getting the best out of people as well as useful information to help your grow your business, develop and build your team.
Canny Conversations has now completed over 50 episodes making an impact on UK business Podcasts and demonstrating how sustainable business can benefit. In the third series Safaraz speaks with journalist Adrian Kibbler as well as some great guests sharing their thoughts and insights. In the fourth series Safaraz shares his own individual thoughts again.
Canny conversations are intended to challenge and cannily captivate. Let us know if they do or otherwise!
The topics covered in these conversations range from individual biographies & life stories to industry specific conversations as well as all things self development, enterprise & entrepreneurship and that’s just for starters. Previously we have received very good feedback on a number of our podcasts with topics such as; the importance of people, how to recruit them and get the best from them. It explores what makes a good leader and how to build strong teams within a winning culture.
‘Don’t expect to agree with everything but remain open and challenged. There is plenty to ‘chew on’ as Safaraz might say.
Safaraz Ali is the author of Canny Bites books, the fourth book being the lates titled: ‘Successfully Scale Up or Exit Your Business’ which helps business owners and leaders know exactly what they need to consider when growing their business. It’s a workbook and a checklist for entrepreneurs to help put the foundations in place ensuring they have the right toolkits to make scaling an easier task.
Hi, and welcome to another Canny Conversations podcast powered by the Pathway Group. My name's Mark Wakeley, and I'm 1 of the team who bring you these podcasts each week. In this series, Safrazz Ali will be talking to some of the business people he's met and worked with in his 23 years at the heart of the West Midlands business community, and many of the businesses that are part of the multicultural apprenticeship alliance. In this new episode of Canny Conversations, Safrazz continues his chat with Pat Carvallo, the principal and CEO of Birmingham Metropolitan College. In this second part of 3, we delve into the world of further education leadership with Pat, a seasoned leader in the sector.
Speaker 1:In this particular episode, Pat shares insights into the importance of collaboration between colleges and employers, the evolution of colleges in meeting the needs of students and businesses, and the challenges and opportunities faced in the ever changing landscape of education. So let's rejoin Safrazz and Pat as they continue to explore the journey of a leader dedicated to making a difference in the education sector.
Speaker 2:Fantastic.
Speaker 3:Obviously, prior to you being a principal, you were already in the FE space. What's you like of somebody who goes into FE?
Speaker 2:I mean I I mean I started out as a as a lecturer, you know. And and I I did enjoy, you know, you know, teaching. But I also enjoyed doing different things in college as well. I wanted to be doing different things. And so I always looked at opportunities to develop, you know, computing Yeah.
Speaker 2:Within the institution. So, you know, it's a time where you're looking at, you know, how can you use a, you know, IT to really, develop the institution, on an organizational basis, but also for for staff and students, how they can make use of that to really benefit. So I came in to teach computing, which is obviously for people who want to be in the, you know, in the IT industry. But actually, I was much more interested in how you could we could make the institution better through IT, and develop that. So that teaching and learning bit, with e learning and, you know, at the time and so on was really the the vehicle I used to actually work across the, the college.
Speaker 2:And luckily, you know, others believed in me, you know, in those kind of cross cross college roles. But what I realized about FE, and I think actually in any large institution, is that I think if you really want to really understand the institution, you need to line manage. Also, although I've been doing a lot of kind of, you know, cross college work and so on projects, which are, you know, they're a hard piece because you're influencing skills, you know, that negotiation with individuals who think they're higher up than you and and probably were and, you know, how are you going to get them to buy into the projects and things that you, you know, that you're doing on behalf of the college, you know, it's always a tough thing to do. But 1 of the things I did, you know, is that I want to do move up than I felt I needed to line manage.
Speaker 3:In terms of your career as a sort of a leader within the further education sector, you've been a leader for for many many years now and leadership in terms of every organization is slightly different and roles are different as well so in terms of your first sort of big role would you say that's the principal of Harrow College? Would would you would you call that as the main sort of big juggernaut of role that was in?
Speaker 2:I no. I think I think that's right. I I joined Harrow as a VP. Yeah. As a vice principal to the, the the principal who donated in, I think, not quite a year.
Speaker 2:And he used to be my vice principal. Still a great friend and and mentor. And I learned an awful lot of being, if you like, an executive member of the team. Team.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Senior senior member of between being a vice principal and being a principal. There really is.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because you are the executive officer at the end of the day. The box stops with you. The book stops on the finances. It stops with everything. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So and, you know, the vice principal, I was you know, although finance is very at the heart of cricket and planning as far as I'm concerned, you know, I wasn't the FD. Didn't have that background, and and and certainly even now, you know, you know, don't even know I know, an awful lot about it. But what the 1 of 1 of the things I've always learned through all the kind of promotions I've had and so on is that you have to let certain things go. It's usually around the way that you work with, with others.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You
Speaker 2:know, when I was say, middle manager or or senior manager at my previous college, you grew up with everybody in a sense. You developed into new roles and it's both a really good thing and sometimes not a great thing. And that is how everybody else perceives you in your new roles. And that's usually your colleagues, especially if you're now line managing them. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2:And for for some staff that works and all of it doesn't. And so you have to learn to hold lines, to, to be adaptable and flexible. But so you you learn a lot. But when you get to being a principal, you're even further away from having the conversations that you even had as a line manager. You know, because you don't have those I can tell you, you don't have those con you don't.
Speaker 2:You don't. You don't. You do with the people closest to you, whether that's the the vice principal, you know, the FD, the, company secretary, or members of maybe the widest SLT team. But it's not the same as when you were a middle manager. It's it's just not the same.
Speaker 2:And you have to trust an awful lot. So it's it's quite lonely. The and the only good thing around being that is I quite like being alone. So I have to say that as well. It's something I've been quite used to and because I come from a big family.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Do do you know what I mean? You you
Speaker 3:You're comfortable.
Speaker 2:You I I know what that feels like and I'm not too worried about it. I might never have been. But I recognize that it is, you know, a lonely job. So what I try to do, what I try to ensure, and and certainly did when I, less so when I started out as a as a principal. But I made sure that was 1 of the things that I didn't do when I was when I came to BMET.
Speaker 2:And that is I made sure I had people around me. And it was for me, that was the the thing because the value of that and, you know, when I was principal at Harrah, I had a great, a great deputy, and he's he's doing great things now. And you have to trust them, and you have to allow them to do the job that you used to do. And that's quite hard. You want to kinda be in there, and you want to know going on and whatever.
Speaker 2:But you have to be able to trust, people, but also know how to have them around you so that they feel comfortable as well. You know? And I think that's quite I think that's quite important. So when I first came to Bemat, 1 of the things for me, because the structure I came to, the senior structure I came to, was not a structure I am used to at all. It was, I thought, quite odd.
Speaker 2:But I haven't changed it.
Speaker 3:Oh, you have changed it?
Speaker 2:I haven't changed it. I have added to it, but I've done it in a way that actually supports the work that I need to do.
Speaker 3:Just briefly explain that to us so
Speaker 1:we can.
Speaker 2:So normally, you will have a structure of a a principal. You will have VPs for curriculum, you know, finance. You might have employer engagement, you know, in there as well. But you've got a small exec team and you will have wider senior managers who do things, relevant for the college. And I come from a, college that went into a merger, and I became the the deputy CEO in the merger.
Speaker 2:So I'm used to multisite. I know what it means. I knew what it how to work across multisites and, you know, and so on. And coming to BMET, it was multicycle, so that wasn't, that was no different. But in terms of the management of each site, it had chosen to go down a route?
Speaker 2:Because you want to when you when you multi size it, it's for a very good reason. You have to have the senior leadership that makes it work. So you have to have local leadership. It makes absolute sense that you would do so and that's absolutely fine. And you would want to make sure that you respond to your locale because you're based in it.
Speaker 2:And you want to support the communities and stuff. And you do that, and that's absolutely right. So we had VPs around, and that's fine, and we still have them. But we also had things that were that I would say ought to be centralised because you need to have consistency and you and the quality there and so on around whether the and I think about student services. They were all actually very localized.
Speaker 3:So a lot of things were delegated
Speaker 2:Delegated so far So
Speaker 3:far that
Speaker 2:that it actually it it didn't do what it was trying to do. I understood what it was trying to do, but it it and you need senior managers to have that local view and whatever. But to make everything local Andre, it just brings in inefficiency. And it just brings in when I talk to staff when I first joined, because I talk to all staff teams, it was very clear to me that staff felt that they couldn't talk to each other necessarily. So even though there's been a lot of work around culture and about being part of BMET and, you know, and all of that, people still felt that they if they talk to, a colleague in another college, it was almost like a descent.
Speaker 3:So did they feel like it's part of 1 identity or was it like, you know, I'm part of this campus and that sense?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, it was that. And and but the staff wanted to be part of something bigger.
Speaker 3:Bigger. So
Speaker 2:it's for me, that was that was music to my ears because I believed in the bigger. I understand how you can make it work locally, but still be part of a bigger entity that says this is where it was. And and obviously the reason why the it had moved in a particular direction was just it was very simple and that was to do with the past and what they were trying to get away from and reignite what it meant to be that local college. So I understood all the, you know, the reasons behind it, and it was the right thing to do. But for me, it was still Birmingham Metropolitan College and something we shouldn't flinch from.
Speaker 3:So Pat, throughout, I mean, you you know, you firmly believe in the role colleges play in in the the local community, the regional community, even on a national maybe international international stage as well. So talk to us about how colleges I mean not necessarily being at now but how colleges have sort of evolved. You know we've you know we've talked about reviews and this review and local reviews and various other things and you're continuously going through an element of of refresh and looking in words as well as and talking to some of the state of stakeholders and because you've been in the sector a while you've got the experiences not just in terms of Birmingham but obviously from a greater London area as well. So talk to us about some of those challenges within the further education sector, some of the changes within that sector, how you see the future as well if you can.
Speaker 2:When I first joined FE, I can say from my view coming from a different, you know, coming from the NHS and whatever, I loved being in FE, but I didn't necessarily like the way that we were organised and the way that we did things. So being incorporated, which is 1 of the first things that happened, I think, a year and a into into my coming into FE. Yeah. I felt like a, a refresh. It felt like something different.
Speaker 2:Because some of the stuff that was going on was not good. You know? And getting to a place where we were to finally, I think going I think it was about 5, 6, 7 years later, talking about outcomes instead of input was absolutely 1 of the best things that happened to FE as far as I'm concerned. We started to talk about the individuals because your output is the individuals. And what are they progressing to?
Speaker 2:What are they achieving? What are they progressing? So we got the focus, you know, on the FE sector I think was absolutely right. And I think, you know, the fact that we are what over 85, 90 percent good or better as a sector, education sector, I think says an awful lot about how we have improved over the last 20, you know, 20 years. I think part of the difficulty for the FE sector though, and I kind of blame Callaghan for this because he kind of opened the floodgates on messing around with education.
Speaker 2:And having a, you know, governments having a, you know, a you know, a say in what we do is that it's just that. It's the tinkering that has gone on, you know, in FE. And and some of it for, you know, really good reasons. Like I've just described about that, you know, this is what we should be focused on, how we want to absolutely. And from a quality perspective, don't disagree with that.
Speaker 2:But in terms of a funding perspective and our standing between universities and schools, There has been a view of the FE sector, which is not understood at all. I think Labour probably understands it slightly better just simply because individuals are not necessarily from have a certain educational background and and that's just a fact. But even there, I would say there's an issue about a real lack of understanding about the FE sector. And so therefore, you can prod. You can play with it.
Speaker 2:You can do all sorts of things to it over lots of, FE reforms. And obviously, the latest ones, the curriculum reforms, you know, as a sector we have written about, we have been public about, about our concerns, for young people, who are going to find find themselves in a situation as an as an example of this of with the level 3 reforms. And let me just say we're doing T levels. Lots of colleges are now doing T levels. But we all understand those T levels are there for a very few students, a very few young people.
Speaker 2:That's what they're designed for. And the government has said that. That's what they're designed for. They're not meant for everybody to do. So you've got this mismatch between youngsters coming out of school at 16 with their GCSEs.
Speaker 2:That means they've passed at level 2 successfully, but can't do a level 3 program because the only 1 the only game in town is t levels. That can't be right. Now the government could have said that they're planning on all these alternative qualifications, you know, to support others going in other routes and, you know, and those are coming through and we can see those. But, you know, you've got gaps, which means that you're we're going to see young people falling through the cracks. And why should you have to want to go to the t level or the a level, but have to do another year at level 2 or something not quite described, which is the transition program?
Speaker 2:It doesn't land well. It doesn't make a lot of sense. So as colleges, you know, because the 1 thing that we've learned from reform is to be adaptable. And it's to make things work. Because actually we have in front of us young people and adults who need something now so that they can progress.
Speaker 2:They don't need it in 2 or 3 years time when we think that, you know, everything is worked out and we can run the program. They need it now. So we have to make sure that we're doing the best as we possibly can through the reforms because we you can't leave behind people.
Speaker 3:In terms of employers, the business world and so forth, I mean obviously they they some of them have got certain views to say the people that we need are not what the colleges are training on and they don't understand our needs, they don't really understand business per se, possibly other stakeholders might say you know colleges are not fulfilling the full role and other people are are having their their lunch to a certain level independent training providers possibly some employers themselves and so forth. What's your general thoughts in terms of
Speaker 2:I think if we if you said this 20 years ago I'd probably agree. I'd I'd agree. But I I don't I I don't recognize that. Okay. Of the FE sector, you know, now or even 10 years ago.
Speaker 2:But I think we're not very good as a FE college sector of blowing our own trumpets in terms of the work that we do individually as colleges with the local community. And when I talk about community, I'm not just talking about people. I'm actually talking about the businesses and what we do and so on. But it's it's it's kind of that thing, isn't it? You know, when when people looking at funding, it's usually you're either gonna do something because you're doing it through the university because that feels better than doing it with a college because you're not promoted even though you're doing similar things in that space.
Speaker 2:And you want then to have school leavers, you know, half the 16 to 18 year olds, just over half, go to college and we're not necessarily saying you know your talent pool or indeed future SMEs are actually here in colleges. They are not coming out of necessarily coming out of a levels or what was seen as colleges in colleges in terms of employers. And so 1 of the things that we're doing at Bema, and it's nothing new, lots of colleges do exactly the same thing, and that is about employer forums. There are sector based and they have both large and, you know, small employers who are really directing, you know, what we do in terms of the wider skills. Cause that's what employers really talk about it.
Speaker 2:So it's wider skills, not the technical skills for which we they know that we can train them for whether that's in engineering or, you know, construction or or wherever, and they they should build on those things. They want to know that they can, on the very basic level, be there on time, but actually have creativity, that critical thinking, that taking in the initiative, all those other things that they they want people to come with. And I don't think we've been very good at how those are the things that our students develop and are developing them through whether it's, employer projects, all sorts of things. But we don't sing about all of that and that's something that we need to do because it's not true that we we don't. We've just recently obviously you probably know about the local skills plans, the chambers got together in the West Midlands and as colleges we have been leading that work.
Speaker 2:And for us as BMEA, we're leading the employer engagement part of that. And we've been surprising people about how we've gone about doing this. And, you know, and how we're taking it forward to make it a sustainable change so that you know employers have got a have got a more comprehensive view of colleges you know going forward. And I'm really excited by the work that we're doing. But also part of it is we've only, you know, and this is down to the mayoral authorities.
Speaker 2:And I can never remember the third 1, but it's Manchester and West Midlands are 2 of 2 of the 3. And, you know, now I've got something with Innovate UK. And that's always been for universities. So that's research and development usually working with businesses to really support them in terms of, you know, that making step changes with their business. And it's only since, the very first 1 December that we've been allowed to, but it's only a year's project.
Speaker 2:But the point is it's quite a significant thing for the FE sector to be in that space. So but we need to be shouting about what we're doing now and actually how we're supporting employers and actually getting employers to to want to shout about it too. Because it's about that allyship. It's about those partnerships. And I think it's almost like they've been really, you know, well kept secrets for us, You know?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, you talk about, you know, blowing your own trumpet and, you know, the PR aspect of it. I mean, I was aware of the fact that you're leading on some of these things. We've been very involved in it.
Speaker 3:We've attended some sessions as well and had our input as well. So we can see the change that's happening. I would suggest possibly that a lot most of employers are still not fully savvy of
Speaker 2:I agree. But I think it's the right vehicle. I think there's something in it And because it's about not just about colleges, and it is about ITPs as well. I think, collectively, if enough of us really want to make it happen, we can do that. And and then that offers employers something that they've always complained about and that is something that's joined up.
Speaker 2:And I and I think that's a fair challenge back to, you know, back to us, that we are doing things that are much more joined up.
Speaker 3:But does it make a difference? I mean, if somebody if someone employer says, you know, I can attend all of these sessions and I can give my feedback and so forth. Are you actually going to look at changing? Are you going to make it fit for purpose? Or is it just going to be a process and it's a feel good thing?
Speaker 2:No. And and you know what? Our governor's asked us that question, and so we do a couple of weigh days each year. And the last 1, we actually had the employers from each of our employer forums come for a a conversation. A bit like this Yeah.
Speaker 2:With all the governors. Okay. And it was it was great. Because they're absolutely talking about the impact that they have on our curriculum, you know, in terms of the curriculum changes that we have made. So I think it's it's so
Speaker 3:Is is it tangible? Do you feel
Speaker 2:it's Absolutely. No. It was tangible. And it was tangible to the governors because that's the question that they were asking of us. So we were we're not playing at this.
Speaker 2:We are genuinely wanting to make sure that we cannot you know, that what we can actually follow through on the things that the employers want. But we also have asked of the employees because it's not a free ride. It's not about saying, oh, I was on. You know, I, you know, I've done my best. There has to be a commitment from them as well.
Speaker 2:And that's that's quite important. And and mostly, I think the employers actually enjoy that commitment because what they're getting is they're getting access to, and I keep saying this, to a talent pool. That's a talent pool that is more ready than if they were at school. And that's the point.
Speaker 3:I'm gonna touch on if I can go into a slightly different really good person and this person said you know you're good at this and so forth and that's been your careers advice and part of it's been yourself as well. You know and we talk about sort of structured form on careers advice and possibly the lack of it. What's your thoughts at the moment in terms of what are the current issues? What what are the obstacles and and how do we get to a position where we can talk about careers advice positively?
Speaker 2:Somebody asked me a couple of years ago and I said the what's my most important thing and I said it's gonna be careers. Yeah. I said, I you know, I look back, and you're absolutely right. It's family and friends, isn't it? That, you know, it's Somebody should know where you've got this and this person, and why don't you try
Speaker 3:this and why don't you do that?
Speaker 2:Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, not any not anything else. And I think there will always be that. There will always be that.
Speaker 2:And and I think that's right. But I don't know where to start really because I think about the baker clause and it just makes me feel depressed, you know, because there are schools that are quite genuine about it and so on, but there are schools that are just, you know, playing a game. And I I can only talk about it from, you know, what I think as colleges and what we're doing around it is that I've always been blessed to try to make sure that we have the right people or we're or the right people delivering careers advice because I think that is critical. Coming to BMEA has been a pleasure to know that we have got a careers team. And we used our levy to create more roles, people who've got that role.
Speaker 2:As well as doing the day job, they actually also can do careers advice because we're a large college. And we need to make sure that we can actually do that and to the standard, you know, that we that we need to do. So that's that's 1 aspect of it. Yeah. I think in terms of so what in terms of what we try to do within the college, we're only kind of getting to grips with it really now, I would say, in terms of what does that really mean.
Speaker 2:How does it align with everything else that we do? Because you can get careers advice not just from a careers adviser who can do that individual bit, but actually, you know, our teachers need to be involved in that careers advice. It's part of their own it's it's it's a holistic approach. It's part of their industrial updating that they should know about, you know, about future careers and trends and so on. And, you know, that's part of their CPD and what they should do because it needs to come in while they're learning, not just as something on the side or when they're doing their UCAS.
Speaker 2:It's got to be more than that. So we're looking at how we make sure that it's a fundamental part of the the wider skills development that our employers want our students to have. The thing I don't think students need is for us to say these are all the careers out there. We need to point them to where these careers are. They need to be able to do that because they need to learn for themselves as well.
Speaker 3:More feel creative.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Absolutely. And so you because you can't do everything for them, and they've got to take that responsibility on. But they need to understand that those you're there to facilitate and to provide that. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, across the the different sectors. So that employer engagement is really critical to, you know, thinking about, you know, again, I'll come back to those interpersonal, those softer skills and yet they're not softer, are they? They're essential skills, you know, that they want and how important those are for the development because that impacts on how they actually do when they're with us in their college. So for me, it's it's exceptionally important as a large institution to try to get that right and you can only do that by making it sector based.
Speaker 3:1 of the things I wanna touch upon is the fact that, you know, the college previously has been known for their professional services arena, linking with the financial services, linking with the the opportunities particularly with the Greater Birmingham within law, for banking, finance and so forth. Is that something that you feel is unique to yourself like a USP, like a differentiator? How does that add value?
Speaker 2:I can hear my vice principal in my ear saying yes. Yeah. Yeah. And she's right actually. I mean, you know, and saying that, you know, we're the, still in the, you know, in the country, the only college with a professional services academy.
Speaker 2:That is actually genuine that you want to talk about curriculum development and actually really supporting and being part of that delivery, then the companies that we work with, you know, whether they're through banking or more wider in the financial services, it's been going for 11 years now. You know, it's a massive thing for us. And I think what I'm really pleased about over the last couple couple of years, and particularly in terms of Fintech, is we've now launched Yeah. You know, our our first Fintech program. I think.
Speaker 2:So it is really important to be at the forefront of something, you know, something like this. I think it's huge and and absolutely has to be continued to be nurtured. And, you know, this is not down to me. This is down to individuals that create you know, helped to to build this and to understand. And 1 of the things I'm really lucky is that we've got individuals who actually before they came into FE, actually ran their own businesses.
Speaker 2:They understand what it is to have, you know, a business and what that means and how you want to take. And they, through their own, you know, networks and so on, have actually helped to build this particular part of what we do around professional, professional services. I still think we're not doing enough. And partly, I unfortunately, I have to say, going back to funding reforms, you know, that's to do with the reduction in funding for adult programs. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Even though the command authority has been, you know, greatly trying to change that and really trying to work with every lever it can to do that. And I applaud the work that, you know, it's been able to give us the opportunities to do in that space. The fact is here I was as a mature student being able to go to university and and, you know, do all the things and change my career and change, you know, what I do. I wouldn't even be thinking about that in those same circumstances. Now it just wouldn't happen.
Speaker 2:And that's quite scary, you know, when you think about that. Okay. That is the biggest challenge, you know, I think that we have, you know, going forward. It needs to have a a more joined up approach. But fundamentally, I think working with, particularly working with, you know, employers in this space is is absolutely critical.
Speaker 2:But I'm I I know we're not all we're certainly not all there. So to do something in the professional services in the way that we have done and for it to have been successful and now doing something even newer, you know, new is for now, I think, you know, and innovative, I think is really, really important that we continue
Speaker 3:to do. Higher education. I mean, colleges have been talking about, should we enter that space? Should we do that? You
Speaker 2:know?
Speaker 1:And that's where we're gonna have to leave Safrazz and Pat. The third and final part of this conversation with Pat Carvallo, the principal and CEO of Birmingham Metropolitan College, will continue in the next episode, which will be available next Thursday. So if you don't want to miss that, just remember to follow or subscribe to the podcast. If you're a new listener to the canny conversations podcast, then let me tell you there are already 91 other episodes out there, and you can listen to all those past episodes by searching for canny conversations on your preferred podcast platform, or go to 1386 audio.comforward/havea listen. It would be really helpful to us if you could review, subscribe, or follow the podcast, and please tell your friends and colleagues about us.
Speaker 1:If you would like to know more, then go to kanyed conversations podcast dot co.uk, or go to Safra's website. That's Safrazz.co.uk. Safrazz has also written a series of easy to follow business books, Canny Bytes. These are available from Canny Bytes dotco.ukforward/bythebook. As I said, we'll be back next Thursday with part 3 of Safra's conversation with Pat Cavallo, the principal and CEO of Birmingham Metropolitan College.
Speaker 1:So until then, we hope you have a good week.
Speaker 2:This is a 1386 audio production.