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Welcome to The 1909, the podcast that takes an in-depth look at The State News’ biggest stories of the week, while bringing in new perspectives from the reporters who wrote them.
(Alex) It's Thursday, December 7, and this is the 1909 state news weekly podcast featuring our reporters talking about the news. I'm your host, Alex Walters. This week I'm first joined by two state news reporters to talk about their reporting on transportation secretary Pete Buda, judge his visit to MSU campus, they observed two protests that ended in a student arrested. Then one of them will tell us about another story. She wrote about a complicated extension to the Pass Fail grading policy instituted in the wake of the February 13 campus shooting. And finally, on this last episode of this semester, I'll be joined by administration reporter Theo shear, to do a little reflecting on maybe the newzeas semester imaginable here at MSU. And with that, let's start the show. All right, well, we're back with our first guest. You guys want to introduce yourselves?
(Jaden) I'm Jaden beard. I'm the cultural politics reporter.
(Ridhima) I'm Ridhima Kodali. I'm a general assignment reporter.
(Alex) Yeah. So you guys last week, you know, you got together and you covered an event. It was you know, Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg. People might remember as a Democratic presidential candidate, came to campus and gave this talk. I think it was billed as an evening with Pete Buttigieg as part of this recurring speaker series they do every year with the former Michigan governor. And you know, that may not sound like the most interesting evening, but it unfolded in kind of a I think a shocking Wait a lot of people is a big story that you guys wrote. And so yeah, we'll happy to have you guys here talking about it. Well, before we get into, you know, some of the unexpected things that happened. Jaden, I know you were set to cover this event before all that unfold that you want to kind of talk through what this event was built to be what it was going to be when it was just an event.
(Jaden) Sure. So former Governor Jim Blanchard has somebody every year to give an award. And this year, it was Department of Transportation Secretary, Secretary Pete Buda judge, and it was supposed to be a q&a between Governor Blanchard and him asking him what it's like to be a part of Biden's cabinet and about his experience, running for president. And just it was supposed to be general inspiration to get people involved in serving the public and getting involved in politics. So that's what it was supposed to be. That was the main focus originally.
(Alex) And so then, you know, when it was announced that the Secretary would be coming to campus, I think pretty quickly, some progressive student organizations announced that they would be protesting the event. So So you are sad Redeemer to cover that outside, you want to talk about, you know, you got there early to talk to these protesters about what they were about what they're trying to do with this protest?
(Ridhima) Yeah, I mean, that experience, it was my first time covering a protest. Yeah. So I was like, a little bit nervous going into it. Because, you know, first time covering the protest, didn't know what to expect. But, um, when I first got there, I actually found a lot of people who wanted to talk about and they're like, We want people to Dutch to know that, you know, we want a ceasefire. And that was like pretty much the whole thing about the protests. And they basically chanted from right outside the Kellogg Center, and then they went up to the parking lot. So it was like, when like the calyx center, it's like the parking lot. That's like
(Alex) for those who aren't familiar with MCs campus, that's the convention center where it was. And then there's this parking structure that's kind of conducted in little walkway, right? Assume those speaking at the event go into that we're coming from.
(Ridhima) Yeah. And I was able to talk to a lot of different people. And the ones that ended up making into the article was someone from Super, he was like the outreach coordinator. And he was the one who was pretty much like, Yeah, we really hope we get our message out. We know Buddha judge is like hearing us. That was like, pretty much what he was saying. And then another person has family use of us. His family was actually in Palestine. And he was talking about just how upset he was. And I think I could like tell there were like tears from his eyes when I interviewed him before the protest. And I was just, like, really sad to hear. Yeah, but the entire thing, the experience of going to a protest and reporting on it. They were like very passionate about, oh, we want a ceasefire. And they got their opinions out there chanting, there's a lot of things going on with the cops. I don't know how much I can say but
(Alex) Well, I mean, I guess you know, the strategy of the protests from reading your article seems clear this person is coming to campus, I think a relatively rare thing for MSU to have an actual secretary and member that can be a member of the cabinet. Here. It's almost like they don't have the ear of the President to get their message. But this guy who they assume, does it maybe he goes back and he says I'm at Michigan State and I heard all this stuff. I mean, is that fair? Yeah, to describe it that way. Yeah. And that's all that we thought produce was that even with a gene you were inside the event, and a separate protest actually happened in there but a separate costume Talk about that when that came about.
(Jaden) Sure. So I'm into Bucha speech, he was talking about Biden's inflation Reduction Act. And he was saying that it's the most intense climate legislation that's been passed thus far. And that is one members from an organization called Climate defiance that's not linked with MSU. But that's been following Buttigieg sort of around during the speeches, and have done a lot of protests like this. They interrupted his speech. They were chanting stop Petro P and plus Pete. Yeah, like petroleum. And there were saying things like, think about the children, how could you say this? And they were escorted out by the police, and ended in one arrest. That was confirmed.
(Alex What was the reason for the arrest.
(Jaden) So I the reason was an MSU ordinance. That was disorderly assemblages or conduct. I see. But he did not spend the night in jail.
(Alex) I see. Yeah, well, certainly, you know, an eventful evening with Secretary Buttigieg covered masterfully by you guys. So Jaden, thank you so much for coming on the show to talk about it. Thank you for having me. Yeah, of course. But Ridhima, you're actually sticking around because we've got another story from you that I wanted to talk about, which is, you know, for those of you who aren't familiar last February, after the mass shooting in Michigan State University's campus, the University announced a number of kind of reforms to help students who are reeling from the trauma of this still, you know, learn what they needed to learn, but maybe not be so you know, overwhelmed with academic pressure. And one of these was this credit, no credit grading option, where you know, it's essentially pass fail, where you can take a class, and you know, you do the necessary assignments, you pass it, it appears that way in your transcript, you don't have to worry about did I get a three or a three, five or a four, anything like that. But you reported last week that this is coming back sort of a little bit. So you got to talk about just you know, what exactly this return is who it applies to what it applies to.
(Ridhima) So basically the credit and no credit policies coming back the only for elective classes. So like, it's not going to be utilized for general ed requirements, instead, only elective classes on versus like, during the pandemic. And after the shooting, you could use it for like any of your classes. But now it's like coming back back, and it was actually extended to December 8. Because what's going on right now in Israel and Palestine, and to kind of alleviate stress was like the exact wording that Mark Largent used for Palestinian and Israeli students.
(Alex) And so but this is only you know, not a class for your major, not a class that's required, either by your college or by just the university requirement. Just a class that you take just for, you know, just for taking a class right?
(Ridhima) Yeah, yeah, pretty much
(Alex) I see. And this is something that you know, students affected by, you know, the violence in Israel in Palestine. They asked for this something that had been talked about before.
(Ridhima) Yeah, so actually super sweet what what super is so super is the Students United for Palestinian rights. So super. I think the Jewish student group and x, which is the era of cultural society, they all pretty much had like a list of demands for Mark for President Woodruff. And they're like, these are like our all our demands. And they wanted like the credit, no credit policy was one of the Divan demands that were met. And so they kind of approached, like the request. And Mark Largent was best basically, like, you know, President WOODRUFF And I, you know, she came to the office of provost and this is something we came up together. And they didn't say anything about the Palestinian students are the Jewish students that like wrote up the list of required questions.
(Alex) So they sold it as your own. Yeah. Hmm. And what about how did the students feel? You know, I know you talked to them after they announced this change, did they feel this is what they had asked for to have a just for elective non major non required classes.
(Ridhima) Um, so they didn't even notice a Saba who's like vice president of the air cultural society. So she she was like, I didn't even notice for elective classes. i She she was like, and she also said, like, Woodruff sent like an email to everybody beforehand about the credit, no credit, but like, I checked my email, like after she said that, and I didn't find any email about the credit, credit policy,
(Alex) that first announcement and then what I did on the website, I seem as though it wasn't sure that it was just for elective classes. Please read your story.
(Ridhima) Yeah, she was like, pretty much like I hate that. It's for elective classes. It's like, you got to do something to the full extent of doing it. She was like, pretty upset about it. And she also didn't like Whole, like admin was kind of taking credit for it when it was like they came up together with the request. And that was like one of the only requests they fulfilled. And I know some of the other requests was like an apology from President Woodruff.
(Alex) I seen the other parts of this list. Yeah. The students at Ford at those weren't mad. Yeah, I see. All right. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show for and all of your great reporting. All right, we are back. And my next guest is a frequent friend of the 1909. But on I think, like half the episodes this semester, the incredible administration reporters do share.
(Theo) Hey, Alex, it's yeah, it's good to be here.
(Alex) Yeah. So I, you know, ended this semester, you and I, we've written a lot. I don't think we've counted a lot of stories, a lot of big topics. Every time we were like, that was crazy. Got a little bit crazy around here. And so I thought, you know, we can reflect because I was realizing I was putting the show together today. I forgot so many of the like, you know, big news stories. There's just been so many this semester, that it'd be nice to go through it. Just you know, couple guys talking about the news.
(Alex and Theo) Because the news Yeah, exactly. So yeah, sounds good to me.
(Alex) But I want to start a little bit before the semester even started, when you you broke a pretty big story over the summer right before everybody moved in. And such what we thought would be maybe the biggest story about a presidential shake up. So why don't you tell us about that? get us started. We're in August.
(Theo) Yeah. Right. This is this is before the semester even started. It is our interim president Teresa Woodruff, she announced that she wouldn't be seeking the role as permanent president, obviously, she's the interim president. This is as a presidential search is ongoing. And she announced that she doesn't really want to keep this role, you know, permanently. She wants to be done once a new president is chosen. And she explains, you know, that she was grateful to have the opportunity. What she didn't mention exactly was why. And we I think we're starting to maybe learn a little bit more about that. But I don't mean to get too ahead of myself.
(Alex) We're going chronological that yes, we are, you know, it's interesting. I remember, you know, that press conference. Now I'm jumping about a week I had to move in week she did a press conference with reporters about students moving in, and one of them came in, they asked her like, Hey, are you going to answer about this presidency thing? Why are you seeking it? And she said, Well, I just want to do it's in the best interest of the university. And they said, What do you mean by that? And she, she didn't answers at the time was sort of, and we got a little bit more out of her as the semester went on about why she's not seeing, but we'll get there. I again, don't want to get ahead of myself. Now we're in the first week, you know, classes started, you know, we're doing the news. And pretty immediately, we had an MSU board meeting. And it was a it was it was it was a doozy of a meeting and a lot of news, when on the time we thought it might be the craziest meeting. In a minute, it turned out very much not to be. But I think the first you know, big news of that meeting was we heard from a lot of survivors of Larry Nasser's abuse, and they came and it was something that I have never seen before at an MSc board meeting. You know, there's eight trustees, eight board members, and they went down the line. And they just sort of I don't mean just condemned, criticized, some of it was like clever with like wordplay and stuff was almost like a roast of each of these board members just saying that they're complicit in so much of what they feel contributed to this sexual abuse that Nasser did for so many years. And they serve them with an updated copy of this lawsuit, alleging that the board had held a secret vote for the April decision to withhold from investigators, these now infamous 1000s of you know, Nasser documents relating to how the university allowed him to abuse so many young women for so long. And so that was just an emotional board meeting with them doing that. And we also I think it's interesting, looking back now, months later, you know, MSU is board has, for a long time, I think, been publicly contentious. But I think in that meeting, we saw for the first time those tensions boil over in a very public way. And it was with you know, this was not on the agenda. And then, you know, the trustees trustee Scott actually introduces this item, which is a reform to the board's bylaws, that would change the way that the chair the chairperson is elected. So instead of doing these chair elections, every two years, it would just be rotated based on seniority and you wouldn't be able to repeat and so for one, this changes how you elect chairs in the future. But what it also does is the current chair remove after her she would not be able to seek a second term and she would not be eligible to be the next person unless everybody else passed over it. So it's, you know, it's a challenge to her leadership. And you know, this gets I mean, it gets ugly Scott's talking about how these chair elections have become contentious and it's divisive. And you know, people are politically posturing and it's affecting decisions long term. And then Vassar is saying that this is an attack on her personally, and they're trying to put it under the guise of a bylaws change. But what it really is, is that she feels you know, as the first black woman to be the chair of MNCs board, that they're trying to change the rules on her to prevent her those are her words to prevent her from you. No staying in power. And this is something that you know, I've been in a message board meetings for a year. Now I've read about a lot of them before that. I think this is where we start seeing these cracks start to widen and things get more tense. And so those it's interesting to look back on that. But now let's go that was on a Friday. And we thought, Wow, what a newsie semester already, right? Turns out very much was not yet. I remember Sunday morning, September 10. I woke up because Saturday, I went home early. I went to sleep was going to real study day Sunday, Theo, and I a ton more notifications on my phone than I've ever had on my phone. And I was like, Look at me, Mr. Popular, you know, turns out that was not the case. And I think you helped me write that story that morning. It was doing the metal soccer thing. Yes, it was. It was Mel Tucker, USA Today. Did a big piece on finish. Kobe dominates in the night. Actually.
(Theo) That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Kenny Jacoby. He wrote that Mel Tucker was under investigation and under a title nine investigation for, for a at the time allegedly sexually harassing a rape survivor and an advocate. Her name's Brenda Tracy
(Alex) was walking for his team.
(Theo) Right, exactly. While she was working with her team. He and I just remember that week. I mean, that day was really
(Alex) I was that morning coming in writing that story. And what eight hours later, you know, they announced his press conference. We go he's suspended? I don't know, we filed four or five stories that day. Right. I mean, what a while, the you know, we did not see that one comment. We did not we did it also is just so interesting, because, you know, I have reported so much on this this lie process, the satellite issues. And it really a time what I suspected that it would be would be, you know, this, like nationally scrutinized stress test of what we already know, through these consulting reports, talking about, you know, the constant turnover, the understaffing, the inability to complete these cases in less than, like a year, a stress test on this already very stressed MSU system. So, again, another huge news story. Right. And it prompted a lot of questions. I mean, as I said, Any case of this nature of who knew what and when, and these are things that we're still kind of, you know, finding out. Yeah, I mean, it's still I mean, we're, you know, months out from that, and now there's, you know, an internal investigation at MSU, which we're gonna get to in a second, there's this kind of looming legal threat of a loss, but we should get into, you know, Tucker after this. He responds, and he he denies all allegations of wrongdoing, she says that, you know, she's out to get them and making up the story. And that was completely consensual. And he's, you know, said that MSU, suspending him and eventually firing him, you know, we followed throughout the semester, he's just completely disagreed with him. He sent these document preservation requests to the campus, which sort of, you know, foreshadow some sort of litigation that's looming coming soon, which is yet to happen. As of right now. It's Tuesday, December 5, when this airs Thursday, it's already happened. That'll be embarrassing for us. We'll look like fools. At this point, it hasn't. And then another interesting twist, when that week, Brenda Tracy, you know, because the advocate who took her harassed, I think a lot of people were quick to attack her. And so when you go into the media with this, and not letting this process play out, and she explains that she had an embargo with USA Today that she had put together the story, because she always feared that it would be leaked that she was accused. He's such a big public figure, not just MSU, but nationally, and he's one of the highest paid coaches in the country. But she wanted to let that process Yeah, she wanted to let it go. But then she put together the story, just in case. And I guess we still don't know exactly what happened. But that she says that happened that she found out that it had been leaked. So media outlet. And so she told USA Today published the story because she wanted it not to be dominated by his side, but by her side of the story.
(Theo) And we don't know exactly where that leak came from.
(Alex) We don't but we know a little bit about what she believed where she believes it came from, and how that affected MSU. So pretty quickly after the Tucker thing we report on a draft memo that she sent to MSU or statement, I should say, through her attorney that said that I am aware that someone associated with Michigan State University's Board of Trustees leaked my name to the media, which forced me to come forward publicly with these allegations against Mel Tucker. And we know that that was sent on the same day that MSU ordered an outside investigation, which remains ongoing into that case. And you know, we still don't know her I talked to her attorney, her attorney declined to expand on who that party is associated with Ms. Whose board what information they relied on to make that determination that it was someone associated with the board who did leak her name. We still don't know that. I guess the hope is that this outside investigation conducted by law firm Jones Day is gonna turn up some answers on that, but we're not sure. Interestingly, actually, that Jones Day probe has been expanded now not just to be about the leak of Brent Tracy's name but who leaked that draft statement to me. Which is interesting. Yeah. It's getting better. But I guess. Yeah. But no. And then, you know, I'm scrolling through after that, oh, this is one that I forget about sometimes. Right, which is that we learned, right after all the Tucker stuff, that the Department of Education is actually investigating MSU for mishandling a totally different title nine case. And the case in question here is, it's a student, a female MSU student who's disabled who accused a male staff member of sexually harassing her and then MSU of mishandling that complaint, and retaliating against her for filing it. That's all we know, we know this from these very heavily redacted documents that we're piecing together from FOIA as to both MSU and the Department of Ed, that investigation is still ongoing, we'll continue to cover it. But that's, I mean, I think in a normal time, that would be big news for the Department of Ed is investigating the University over that, but I think it just kind of got lost in these, you know, Mel Tucker, new cycles, and of course, what's to come, which I think we're getting to next now we're in, let's say, October, right? October, we'll also I should say, in this in between period, had an amazing story about deviant pedestrian ism, which I know may seem small potatoes compared to all this or whatever isn't the right expression, I don't know. But like, it's amazing about how they lay out the sidewalks on MSCs campus. And you might be thinking, Alex, that sounds so uninteresting and boring if you're listening to the 1909. But the sheer writes it in such an interesting way. And he gets right at this like kind of crazy theory of like how you let pedestrians guide you as I can't explain it as good as he does just read a story on it. It's amazing. I just want to say that before we get to more of this very much not fun news about just kind of egregious sexual misconduct. Right. Well, thank you, Alex. That was an amazing story. Theo. Yeah. Thanks. Anyway, now we're in October. And if you are still listening to this podcast, I know it's a lot. You might remember those board tensions we talked about at the September meeting. And it got so much more intense. And we got this letter. It's a seven page letter written by one trustee trustee Briana Scott, about the chairwoman Reema Vassar. And it makes just I mean, these are wide ranging allegations of misconduct. That you know, kind of the thesis of Scott's letter is that Basler has played this outsized behind the scenes role in all of these MSU controversies that you might know the ousting of business Dean Sanjay Gupta, grade 1909 episode about that. The withholding of these Nasser documents, the rapid recent presidential turnover. And you know, all of this Mel Tucker stuff, especially this looming legal battle, and the Brenda Tracy leak. And you know, Scott calls for Vasseur to be removed or to resign, or I guess, to resign or to be removed as a better way of saying that. And you can read we did a lot of stories breaking down these numerous allegations, Vasseur, I should say, has denied all wrongdoing. And she you know, once again said that this is an attempt to challenge her leadership because she's the first black woman to chair the board. She felt that it was, you know, an attack on a powerful black woman and she felt a lot of it was coded language. You know, like these allegations that Vasseur bullied the president. She feels that's coded language. And I should say that Woodruff did not necessarily directly respond to that. But she did issue a statement just saying that we're her work under the board has been her words were challenging at times. Which I think, you know, and that I should say the tension on the board I don't I wouldn't say is resolved. You know, there's now another ongoing outside investigation to get sort of the truth of Scott's allegations. That, you know, we'll hopefully at some point see the results of, although it's unclear if those will be public, it's unclear if any of these investigations will be publicized, or if they'll hold privilege over them. But that's ongoing. But in that I think this is a nice opportunity to circle back to we talked about earlier, but we're getting a little bit more of a glimpse of Woodruff's decision not to pursue the permanent presidency with these allegations that she's been bullied that her power has been usurped. And she actually did an interview with me expand on it a little bit more. I feel like you know, I asked her that question of like, well, why are you doing this? She said, it's in the best interest in university. And I said, you know, what about you leaving is in the best interest of university, I've trouble understanding that. And she was like, Well, I'm just trying to do what's best for the community. And then her spokesperson actually cut off the conversation. That was the end of things, which was disappointing, but Right, sometimes how it goes, what can you do? Yeah, but um, but so, you know, we're getting little glimpses of that throughout the semester. And with that, I think that and again, you're like, This is just October. I know. Oh, man, a busy month
(Theo) only October. When was the bowl? There's a board meeting directly after that. Was that still on October?
(Alex) Yes, that's still so then there's this board meeting those times these tensions, you know, the September board meeting is crazy. October, and then even crazier. You know, you have these board members crying you have them taking sides, some saying they support bathrooms, something they want her out, some saying they just hate that they're having to have this whole public debate over this. You have supporters of both sides coming and speaking. You have people yelling and heckling, I mean being removed. Yeah, I think yeah, someone was removed from the board meeting, right? It was, you know, I think the most tense I've ever seen the MSU board and I next week when we go to December one, I don't know who knows what it'll look like. But, but yeah, oh, and before I move on, also in there was a story that I wrote that I didn't think would be like a big deal. But people I reacted to it greatly was the professor with the meth lab. In September, then again, in October, when I was able to confirm that he was fired, we found out about this Kinesiology Professor, who was hired by MSU. Despite these past meth lab related charges in Louisiana, and the details of it were kind of crazy. And then he was also just like, the only reason anyone found out about it was because he was so kind of rude and unprofessional with his students that they started like researching his background. And they sleuth out that he's teaching under this like modified name, and they find the charges. And that was a fascinating story. That again, I think somebody gets lost in all this, but like, What a weird one. But anyhow, November 1, beginning of November, another story, this one, I think, is a really big deal. I was really excited about it. The tenure track faculty of MSU announced that they want a union, which is kind of this, you know, I think a relatively newer thing. And academia, a lot of schools are doing this. And you see it more so in states where academia feels politically challenged, like you see, you know, in Florida, Louisiana, where you have Republican governors kind of reining in higher education, trying to, you know, put political messaging into a faculty feeling that a union, especially tenure track faculty will protect sort of their academic freedom here at MSU. The reasoning was more so like, the administration and the board are making some decisions and engaging in some conduct that we don't agree with. And we think maybe we should have a bigger voice in that. But that's another fascinating ongoing story. I'm sensing a theme that we're ending this semester with a lot of open, you know, a lot of a lot of open questions, open stories.
(Theo and Alex) Right, right. I mean, once reporter totally got, yes, questions, and then tell it in November. Now, for anyone who's still listening, you're like, Well, wait, in August, when you started this very long summary. Didn't the President say that? She doesn't want to keep the job much longer. Who's going to be the new president? Well, we know Yeah, sign up. Yeah. Well, right. Right. We found out the names of the two part little first, can you tell us because and you did a lot of reporting on this this fall, about the search process leading up to that? Oh, yeah, yeah.
(Theo) So right, the presidential search. So far, it's been very secretive. I mean, they have this this committee, composed of over 20 people that are, you know, supposed to be, you know, interviewing candidates, just discussing these things, but all in all, complete secrecy. So I shouldn't say we did a lot of reporting on it. But most of the reporting was kind of about what we don't know about it. Exactly. Tell us about it, which is interesting. But um, but yeah, but this committee was like, looking at all these applicant screening them anyway. Right. And we, of course, we had no idea who they were until, until November. What was it? I November 10 or so? Yeah, until November, we learned the names of the two candidates. So the committee, they passed along the names of five candidates to the Board of Trustees for a while.
(Alex) And then in November, we learned that they were down to just these two people. And they were debating which one and this was a big a big thing for us. Because you know, that secrecy? I should say the proponents of it, especially the search firm MSU. Use the chair of the search committee, who is also a trustee Denis dine out. They said that, well, that's the only way to attract good candidates, because that secrecy lets people apply without their current employer knowing about that. Most question in a couple ways. Some experts that we talked to who studied presidential searches, said that that maybe isn't necessarily 100% The case that actually there could be an effect where it's a way of concealing search firms recycling the same candidates, and actually being publicly identified in a search can actually help your relationship with your current employer. Because if they like you, and you're a good, you know, President, they might be like, can we give you more money to stay? That's one thing, but also here on MSU campus, it was heavily criticized, especially by the Faculty Senate, because they just want to, you know, input in this process, they wanted to be a part of it. They wanted to know who these people were, they didn't want the board to just pull a president out of the box and suddenly, like, that's who they have. So for us getting these names was a big deal to kind of let the campus you know, see these two people. You know, see which one they like which ones they don't look at their backgrounds. That, of course, wasn't necessarily exactly what happened is you're about to explain to
(Theo) right, exactly. Well, we found out the names of two candidates. So, when we contacted them, you know, we were about to write and release the story of releasing those names. But when we contacted both of them for comment, one of them actually dropped out of the running altogether.
(Alex) Yeah, knowing that he would, you know, publicly be identified as running for the presidency dropped out. So down to one and his name is Kevin Busquets. Yeah, Chancellor of university, North Carolina, Chapel Hill, and field you want to take us through, you know, you had that story about sort of his background and his background, but sort of notable moments in his leadership at their campus for someone who's like, Who's this guy who's the only remaining choice for Ms. US presidency
(Theo) Right. The sole finalist. Well, he is a he's been at a chancellor at UNC for, I believe, a few years now since around 2019. He was best known for his research in in concussions and how they affect the brain. But he in his time there, which is relatively short, and in that role, he has been involved with a number of, I guess you could say controversies at UNC overall. So specifically, one of the big ones that was in the press was the handling of, of Nicole Hannah Jones is tenure. So Nicole, Hannah Jones, she is this journalist who she worked on the 1619 project. This is a New York Times it was you know, heavily acclaimed work about slavery and the history of slavery, its impacts, etc. I think I believe it won a Pulitzer. I think so. And she was like, she spearheaded that, I believe. Of course, it also had its critics. But when she was hired at UNC in April 2021, she was hired as the knight chair in race and investigation, investigative journalism, at their school of journalism. She she applied for a tenured position, many people recommended her for that. The thing is, the board, UNC is Board of Governors was deadlocked over whether to actually grant her the tenure, and many people speculated that was because the donor was massive for the journalism school was a critic of the 1619 project, oh, for work. And they were saying that they were doing this because they had money on the table, they didn't want to upset them. And then therefore, they, you know, never really voted on this very heavily claimed black woman's tenure. And that received, obviously a lot of criticism, a lot of protests. She eventually left the school altogether and accepted the same position, but at a different college at a historically black institution. And she criticized in an interview with ABC News, she criticized a gusto 's role in that the chancellor saying that while he never really explicitly, you know, said, oh, you know, she shouldn't be denied tenure or anything like that. He never really stood up to the Board of Trustees. That's the best what she was saying. And you can kind of see the same criticisms, you know, among different events, in his in his career there. So for example, there was this confederate statue on campus, it's called Silent Sam. And, of course, there's a lot of discussions around that at UNC about whether, you know, it's ethical to have that up and eventually protesters toppled the statue. Then the sons of the Confederacy, I believe, it's this group that, you know, advocates for, for stuff like this. They, they they said that the UNC Board needs to reinstate the statue that it's, you know, part of, you know, the, the cultural heritage University. Right, right. Right. rights were violated by them toppling the Confederate statue. Exactly. Yeah. They sued the university. And they had this eventually, it led up to this very controversial settlement, where UNC gave the sons of the Confederacy two and a half million dollars to pay for the upkeep. And, you know, they gave them the statute to write that. Yeah, they got it. Yeah. They got the statue back. Yeah. And of course, that was also very heavily criticized. Yeah. And, and Gus Cozzens role in that was again criticized because he never really, people said he never stood up to the board of governors who really spearheaded that decision to give him the settlement.
(Alex) I see. Yeah. And so you know, once these, you know, people in MSU community start reading about his background pretty quickly. They're like, you know, now this is not this close secret search anymore. We know who the candidate is. Let's have a chance to talk to him. And first the Faculty Senate. They send a letter to him and to MSU board and they say we would like a 90 minute q&a. If this is guy that you're considering for the presidency where we can talk to him. And then you reported on the Black Alumni Association, and also the black Staff Association also asked for q&a, specifically citing concerns with tenure denial and the payout to the Confederate groups. And he has denied both those offers. And we talked to John Isaacson, who's kind of the search firm middleman orchestrating this, you know, MSU search for the presidency. And he said that, you know, it was a scheduling thing. faculty leaders said, they didn't really believe that and they felt like if you want to talk to them, you would have done it. And you would have found the time. And that's where we're at on that. And we know that they're in some manner of negotiations with Gustavo. It's right. He said that he's weighing the MSU. Job. MSU is talking to him about it. But we don't really know exactly what that looks like, when that'll end where that'll and how that'll end. What we do know. And I think this is an interesting story that we reported last week, is that in these writings that we obtained, that he made to MSU faculty a couple of weeks ago, that at the time were anonymous, and then the faculty eventually got D anonymized, because they're like, well, this guy's the only candidate can we at least see what he said. He says that he would only take the job at MSU. If the board promises to break this habit of interference into the administration, which is what you know, when President Stanley resigned last fall, the reason he said he said he lost confidence in the board that they were interfering in his administration's business. It's what Scott accuses Vassar of doing in that letter that we talked about, that potentially made things as Woodruff said, challenging for her working as president. And so he basically says, you know, if you're going to interfere in my administration, I don't want to come to MSU. And that's where things are at. Right. Right. Well, and and he adds that he actually had a conversation with the trustees about this, you know, talk and then they were receptive to it as well. I think he said, they were, you know, they committed or not committed, but they were receptive. And they were Yeah, saying, like, we would like to do that, if that means that you're going to come here. So that's what we know. Again, we're recording this Tuesday, December 5, if by Thursday, December 7, the soonest when you're hearing it, he's been made present or something. We're gonna sound pretty foolish. But that's the cost of doing business. So yeah, the wow, what a semester. It's been hard work, important work, work that is so enjoyable, because I'm doing it with you. But a good time that we've had. And we'll keep doing it next semester. I'm glad you could come on to tell the six people who are still listening to this now two long podcasts. What went on this semester?
(Theo) Yeah. So ya know, me. I mean, it's, it's really, it's been great. It's been a good semester.
(Alex) It's been wonderful. Yeah. Well, thanks for coming out there.
(Theo) Thank you.
(Alex) And that's all for this semester. We'll be back in January. Until then, the stories we discussed and plenty more being published every day are available state news.com. Thank you to our incredible podcast director Anthony Brinson, my guests Ridhima, Jayden, and Theo and most of all, thank you for listening for the 1909 I'm Alex Walters.