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Why are Europe's top construction firms quietly replacing Baltic birch with Vietnamese plywood? Vivian Nguyen breaks down the engineering, compliance, and cost math — including EN 636 lab testing, 15–30% FOB savings, tiered product specs, and port-by-port transit times to Rotterdam, Hamburg, Piraeus and Gdańsk.
Every year, Europe's construction sector consumes 12 million cubic meters of plywood — and procurement managers are quietly making a seismic shift away from Baltic birch toward Vietnamese manufacturers. In this episode, Vivian Nguyen explores exactly why that pivot is happening, and whether it should be on your radar.
World Timber & Plywood is hosted by Vivian Nguyen, timber and plywood expert at Vinawood — Vietnam's leading structural plywood manufacturer serving 19+ global markets.
A show by Vivian Nguyen - Timber and Plywood expert at VINAWOOD.
https://vinawoodltd.com/
[00:00] Every single year, the European construction sector swallows 12 million cubic meters of plywood.
[00:08] Wow. Yeah, that is a staggering amount of material.
[00:11] Right. It's basically the invisible scaffolding of modern Europe. I mean,
[00:15] it's the temporary backbone that you absolutely need before a single permanent wall can even stand.
[00:21] Exactly. And, you know, if you're listening to this right now, there's a very good chance
[00:24] you're a procurement manager or maybe a site director or main contractor.
[00:28] Yeah, you're the one actually tasked with finding that wood.
[00:31] Yeah. And protecting those increasingly razor-thin margins.
[00:36] All while ensuring these massive mega projects stay on schedule,
[00:40] you intimately know the immense pressure of that supply chain.
[00:43] Oh, for sure. And right now, the companies building your cities
[00:46] are quietly making this monumental pivot.
[00:48] A really profound shift, yeah.
[00:50] They're abandoning the traditional Baltic forests they've relied on for decades.
[00:54] And instead, they're sailing that essential wood 6,000 miles across the globe from Vietnam.
[00:59] It's a profound shift in how the European market secures its foundational materials.
[01:05] I mean, for generations, the playbook for European contractors was practically set in stone.
[01:10] You looked east.
[01:10] Exactly. You looked east.
[01:12] You relied heavily on Baltic birch and traditional regional suppliers.
[01:16] And it felt safe. But as anyone running procurement today understands intimately,
[01:21] relying on a single geographic region is a massive vulnerability.
[01:24] Yeah, the market is just too volatile now.
[01:26] It is. We're operating in this era of constant, unpredictable supply chain disruptions.
[01:32] You've got geopolitical volatility, sudden price spikes.
[01:35] So diversifying your sourcing strategy isn't just like a clever tactic to make
[01:40] your quarterly spreadsheet look a little greener.
[01:42] Right.
[01:42] It's a vital, non-negotiable risk management strategy to prevent your entire job site
[01:48] from just grinding to a halt.
[01:49] Okay, let's unpack this because today's deep dive is zeroing in on exactly how and why
[01:55] this massive pivot is happening.
[01:56] Yeah, it's a fascinating transition.
[01:58] We're looking at why major European construction firms are turning to
[02:02] Vietnamese manufacturers, specifically companies like VinaWood,
[02:06] and using them as a highly competitive, fully compliant alternative to those legacy
[02:12] European suppliers.
[02:13] But you know, before we start ripping up global supply contracts and replacing
[02:17] millions of cubic meters of material, we really need to understand the physics of
[02:21] the material itself.
[02:22] Yeah, we have to look at what formwork plywood is physically enduring on the job
[02:26] site every single day.
[02:27] That underlying physics is exactly where we need to begin because formwork plywood is not
[02:32] it's not the standard sheet goods you buy at a local lumberyard to frame a house.
[02:37] Definitely not.
[02:38] No, it is a highly specialized, highly stressed structural panel.
[02:42] Its entire function is to create temporary molds for poured concrete.
[02:46] And in Europe, the absolute gold standard for this, the real workhorse of the industry,
[02:51] is phenolic film faced plywood.
[02:54] So think of it like a heavy duty baking tin.
[02:56] But instead of pouring in cake batter, you're pouring in liquid rock.
[03:00] I love that analogy.
[03:01] Yes.
[03:01] And that liquid rock triggers a massive, hot, highly outlined chemical reaction as it
[03:08] cures.
[03:08] So your baking tin, the plywood, isn't just holding a shape.
[03:12] It's wearing a chemical hazmat suit.
[03:15] That's exactly what that phenolic film is doing.
[03:17] Right.
[03:17] It has to protect the wood core from an incredibly hostile environment so that when the
[03:22] concrete sets, the board doesn't get permanently fused to the wall.
[03:26] It should be a disaster.
[03:27] Absolute disaster.
[03:28] It has to release cleanly, get scraped off, and be hoisted up three floors to do
[03:33] the exact same brutal job again tomorrow.
[03:36] And the mechanical stress is just staggering when you really break it down.
[03:39] When you pour, say, a three meter high concrete column, the hydrostatic pressure
[03:44] pushing outward at the bottom of that formwork is immense.
[03:47] Just tons of pressure.
[03:48] Exactly.
[03:48] The board cannot bow.
[03:49] It cannot deflect beyond a fraction of a millimeter or your wall is totally ruined.
[03:54] And the engineering keeping that board perfectly rigid comes down to the core construction.
[03:58] Right.
[03:59] These European standard panels, they utilize a really dense hardwood core.
[04:04] It's meticulously cross laminated and bonded together using WBP adhesive.
[04:09] WBP, which stands for water and boil proof, which,
[04:12] I mean, that sounds like marketing jargon.
[04:15] It does, yeah.
[04:15] But it actually describes a very specific chemical reality, doesn't it?
[04:18] Oh, it dictates the entire structural integrity of the panel.
[04:22] WBP isn't just a strong glue.
[04:25] It utilizes phenol formaldehyde resins that create highly cross-linked polymer networks.
[04:31] So it's locked in.
[04:32] Completely.
[04:33] Once those chemical bonds are cured under intense heat and pressure back in the factory,
[04:37] they become essentially irreversible.
[04:39] They simply do not dissolve in water.
[04:41] So when that plywood is sitting on a freezing waterlog job site in Munich in November,
[04:46] the layers just won't delaminate.
[04:48] Exactly.
[04:48] They hold together.
[04:50] And the panels come in spandered thicknesses, 12 mil, 15 mil, 18 mil, and 21 mil.
[04:55] And those are specifically engineered to calculate and resist that hydrostatic
[04:59] concrete pressure based on the scale of the pour.
[05:02] And the ultimate metric that matters to the bottom line of a site director is the life cycle.
[05:07] A good piece of formwork plywood is expected to last anywhere from eight
[05:11] to upwards of 15 pour cycles.
[05:13] You pour, you strip, you fly it up to the next level, you pour again.
[05:16] And if we connect this to the bigger picture,
[05:19] the number of reuse cycles is the actual currency of formwork procurement.
[05:24] That's a great way to put it.
[05:25] Yeah, because procurement managers aren't just buying sheets of wood,
[05:28] they're purchasing a guaranteed number of concrete pours.
[05:32] Every single time a crew can strip and reuse that panel,
[05:35] the overall cost per square meter of cast concrete drops dramatically.
[05:40] So if a main contractor buys what looks like argonboard
[05:44] and the phenolic film degrades or the core delaminates after just three pours,
[05:49] it becomes a financial disaster.
[05:50] It's the dreaded blowout mid-pour.
[05:53] Concrete spilling everywhere, the reinforcement rebarks bowed.
[05:56] Thousands of euros of material just wasted.
[05:58] And the schedule is completely derailed
[06:00] while crews literally jackhammer away the mistake.
[06:04] It's exactly the nightmare scenario.
[06:06] You have to halt the crane, buy replacement boards at a premium,
[06:10] pay crews to clean up the blowout, and then pay to haul the ruined wood away.
[06:13] That is why trust in the material is so deeply entrenched in this industry.
[06:18] Which brings us to the real friction point of this entire geographic shift.
[06:23] If the traditional Baltic birch board works perfectly
[06:26] and every site foreman in Europe trusts it,
[06:29] why go through the logistical headache of sourcing it from Vietnam?
[06:33] It's the multi-million dollar question.
[06:35] Right. The answer lies at the intersection of aggressive bottom-line pricing
[06:39] and the uncompromising reality of European quality standards.
[06:43] Sourcing this exact type of film-faced plywood from Vietnam
[06:47] offers a 15 to 30% cost advantage below Baltic birch on an FOB basis.
[06:53] Which is massive.
[06:54] Yeah, free on board, meaning the price of the goods loaded directly onto the ship
[06:58] at the port of origin.
[06:59] 15 to 30%.
[07:00] A 15 to 30% reduction on an essential consumable
[07:03] that main contractors are purchasing by the container load.
[07:06] It's huge.
[07:07] When you are bidding on a 50-story commercial tower
[07:10] and your margins are razor thin,
[07:13] a 30% savings on your formwork package is very often
[07:17] the mathematical difference between winning that bid and coming in second.
[07:21] Okay, wait, let me step into the shoes of the skeptical procurement manager for a second here.
[07:25] Go for it.
[07:25] Because a 15 to 30% discount is massive.
[07:28] Frankly, it sets off alarm bells.
[07:30] Naturally.
[07:31] As a contractor, if I see something that much cheaper
[07:34] coming from a completely different continent,
[07:36] my immediate gut level fear is that we are sacrificing quality
[07:40] and we're going to fail inspections.
[07:42] Right.
[07:42] My fear is buying 50 containers of Vietnamese plywood
[07:46] and a month later, my site format is screaming at me over the radio
[07:50] that the panels are warping, the film is peeling,
[07:52] and the building inspectors are shutting us down.
[07:55] How do we know this isn't just substandard wood
[07:58] masquerading in a dark film finish?
[08:00] This raises such an important question,
[08:02] and it is the absolute first hurdle
[08:04] any rigorous procurement team has to clear.
[08:07] You cannot trade structural integrity for a spreadsheet discount.
[08:10] You just can't.
[08:11] But here's the reality of the modern global market.
[08:14] Strict European regulations act as the great uncompromising equalizer.
[08:19] Manufacturers like Venowood are not shipping over generic
[08:23] untested lumber hoping it holds up.
[08:25] They never get away with it.
[08:26] Never.
[08:27] They are engineering their boards to pass the exact same brutal
[08:30] standardized European tests as the legacy Baltic suppliers.
[08:35] The compliance is absolutely identical.
[08:37] We're talking about the CE marking, right?
[08:39] Specifically the EN 13986 standard.
[08:42] Yes, exactly.
[08:43] And for anyone running a major European project,
[08:45] that CE mark is legally mandatory.
[08:48] You cannot even put the wood on the site without it.
[08:50] It is the legal baseline.
[08:51] To even operate at this level,
[08:52] Venowood's production is ISO 9001 certified,
[08:56] which ensures a globally recognized,
[08:58] audited quality management system right there at the factory.
[09:01] Okay, so the factory is tight.
[09:03] Very.
[09:03] But the CE mark is really just the beginning.
[09:05] The truly critical metric for the job site is the EN 636 standard.
[09:10] This is the laboratory standard that legally defines bonding durability.
[09:14] Let's talk about how they actually test that,
[09:15] because it's not just some guy doing a visual inspection with a clipboard.
[09:19] It is essentially torturing the wood to ensure it doesn't fail under pressure.
[09:22] Oh, it is a highly destructive testing process.
[09:25] Venowood produces panels specifically rated to EN 6362,
[09:29] which dictates performance in humid, demanding conditions.
[09:32] And EN 6363, which is the highest standard
[09:35] for fully exposed exterior weathering.
[09:38] And to pass EN 6363, the labs don't mess around.
[09:42] Not at all.
[09:43] Independent laboratories take samples of the plywood,
[09:46] and they literally boil them in water for up to 72 hours.
[09:49] Wow, 72 hours of boiling.
[09:51] Yes, then they bake them, then they boil them again.
[09:54] Finally, they put in the boiled wood into a machine
[09:56] and attempt to physically shear the layers apart
[09:59] to measure the exact breaking point of that WBP adhesive line.
[10:03] So by the time a contractor buys that EN 6363 certified board,
[10:07] they know the glue has already survived an environment
[10:10] vastly more hostile than any rainstorm in London or snowstorm in Oslo.
[10:14] Precisely.
[10:15] Because these Vietnamese panels pass these exact
[10:18] laboratory shear and boil tests, the 30% cost savings
[10:23] are demonstrably not coming at the expense of quality.
[10:26] You are holding the exact same structural guarantee in your hands.
[10:30] That's an incredible piece of mind.
[10:32] And on top of that, they meet the stringent E1 limits
[10:35] for formaldehyde emissions,
[10:36] ensuring worker safety and enclosed spaces,
[10:39] and they hold FSC and PEFC chain of custody certifications,
[10:43] guaranteeing the timber itself
[10:45] is legally and sustainably harvested.
[10:47] So the fear of catastrophic failure
[10:49] is mitigated by the lab results.
[10:51] The standards are met.
[10:52] The environmental sourcing is verified.
[10:54] So what does this all mean for the actual purchasing strategy?
[10:58] It changes everything.
[11:00] Because knowing the standard is met is reassuring,
[11:02] but a massive problem I hear from contractors all the time
[11:05] is overspacing.
[11:06] You know, buying a Ferrari just to drive to the grocery store.
[11:09] Oh, it happens constantly.
[11:10] If I am managing a low-rise residential build,
[11:13] I don't need a board engineer to survive 20 pores.
[11:15] I'm just throwing unused value right into the dumpster
[11:18] at the end of the job.
[11:19] That is the silent margin killer in construction procurement.
[11:22] Throwing away a board that still has 10 pore cycles left in it
[11:25] just because the job is finished.
[11:27] Right.
[11:27] A sophisticated global manufacturer addresses this
[11:30] by moving away from a single one-size-fits-all product.
[11:34] Instead, they engineer specific, tiered solutions.
[11:38] They actually manipulate the core density
[11:40] and the gram weight of the phenolic film
[11:42] to perfectly match the life cycle of the project.
[11:46] And if we look at the VINNAWOOD lineup,
[11:48] it's surgically divided into three distinct tiers
[11:50] to solve this exact problem, isn't it?
[11:52] It is.
[11:53] And the physical difference between these tiers
[11:55] usually comes down to that chemical hazmat suit
[11:57] we talked about earlier, the phenolic film.
[11:59] Like, a standard board might use 120 gram per square meter film,
[12:04] while a heavy-duty board steps up to a much thicker 220 gram film
[12:08] to resist the alkaline burn of the concrete for a longer period.
[12:11] That is the exact mechanism of durability, yes.
[12:14] Let's look at their entry tier, EcoForm Plus.
[12:16] This is built and certified to the EN6362 standard,
[12:19] but it uses a film and core combination
[12:21] designed to yield eight plus reuse cycles.
[12:24] Okay, eight pores.
[12:25] Right.
[12:26] This is the optimal, highly efficient board
[12:29] for budget-conscious projects,
[12:30] smaller residential builds, or complex, customized pores
[12:34] where the formwork is going to be cut up into odd shapes anyway
[12:37] and simply can't be reused dozens of times.
[12:40] Then you step up to the industry workhorse,
[12:42] which they call FormBasic.
[12:44] Yeah, FormBasic remains EN6362 compliant,
[12:48] but the engineering of the cross-lamination
[12:50] and the film thickness upgrades the lifespan to 10 plus reuse cycles.
[12:54] So that's your middle ground.
[12:56] Exactly.
[12:56] This is the bread and butter of the commercial construction industry.
[12:59] If you're building mid-rise office blocks,
[13:01] parking structures, or standard retail developments,
[13:04] this tier provides the perfect balance of upfront cost
[13:07] and reliable repetition.
[13:08] But when you get into the massive multi-year mega projects,
[13:12] eight or 10 pores just isn't going to cut it.
[13:14] You need something that can take a sustained beating,
[13:16] and that's where FormExtra comes in.
[13:17] FormExtra is engineered for the extremes.
[13:20] It steps up to the rigorous EN6363 standard,
[13:23] surviving those brutal boiling tests we talked about,
[13:26] and is built to provide 15 plus reuse cycles.
[13:29] Wow, 15.
[13:30] This board uses the highest density hardwood core
[13:33] and the heaviest gram weight phenolic film.
[13:36] It's designed specifically for high-cycle, relentless infrastructure projects.
[13:41] Like bridges and tunnels.
[13:42] Exactly.
[13:43] We are talking about massive bridge pylons, underground tunnel boring sections,
[13:48] or the central elevator cores of skyscrapers,
[13:51] where the exact same formwork system is hydraulically climbed up the building
[13:55] week after week, month after month.
[13:57] So having these specific tiers fundamentally changes the procurement conversation.
[14:02] You aren't just haggling over the price of a generic sheet of plywood anymore.
[14:05] Not at all.
[14:06] You are matching the exact chemical and structural lifespan of the board,
[14:10] whether it's EcoForm Plus, FormBasic, or FormExtra,
[14:13] to the precise architectural life cycle of your concrete pores.
[14:17] You optimize the budget by never paying for durability you aren't actually going to use.
[14:21] It allows the procurement manager to act as a financial scalpel rather than a sledgehammer.
[14:26] You squeeze every single drop of value out of the material before it ever leaves the site.
[14:31] Alright, so we've established that the product is fully certified to European lab standards.
[14:36] It's tiered to prevent budget waste and it's offering a 15 to 30% FOB discount.
[14:42] But we have to address the massive logistical elephant in the room.
[14:46] The shipping.
[14:47] Yeah, none of this, literally none of this brilliant engineering matters
[14:51] if the wood is sitting on a dock in Asia when your concrete pump trucks
[14:55] are idling on a site in Frankfurt.
[14:57] We are talking about moving thousands of tons of material, 6,000 miles.
[15:02] Logistics is historically where the anxiety really peaks for European buyers looking to Asia.
[15:08] It feels inherently riskier than just putting wood on a truck in Latvia.
[15:12] But the modern maritime freight network has evolved into this highly predictable,
[15:16] incredibly efficient machine.
[15:17] Let's look at the actual transit realities from Vietnam to the major European maritime hubs.
[15:22] I am naturally skeptical here, I have to admit.
[15:25] 16 days from Vietnam to Southern Europe sounds fantastic on paper,
[15:29] but ocean freight involves port congestion, unloading delays and massive logistical chains.
[15:35] It's a ship to the Mediterranean really more reliable than a truck driving overland from the Baltics.
[15:41] It is a highly counterintuitive reality, but yes, it often is.
[15:44] Really?
[15:45] Yeah, overland freight within Europe right now is heavily subjected to severe truck driver
[15:51] shortages, sudden spikes in diesel costs, and totally unpredictable border transit delays.
[15:57] Ocean freight conversely operates on massive standardized economies of scale.
[16:01] Okay, I can see that.
[16:02] They're loading 400 to 550 sheets of 18-mil plywood into a single standard 20-foot container.
[16:09] When a mega ship arrives, it is injecting a massive secure volume of ready-to-use
[16:13] formwork directly into the regional supply chain all at once.
[16:16] Let's break down those regional transit times because that's what people really need to know.
[16:19] Sure.
[16:20] If your projects are in Southern Europe or the Mediterranean,
[16:23] the port of Piraeus in Greece is your fastest entry point.
[16:27] The maritime transit time from Vietnam is a remarkably swift 16 to 20 days.
[16:32] That is fast.
[16:33] It is.
[16:34] Moving up to Western Europe, feeding Germany and France, shipping into Rotterdam in the
[16:38] Netherlands takes 18 to 22 days.
[16:41] Hamburg, Germany takes 20 to 24 days.
[16:44] And what about Eastern Europe?
[16:45] For the rapidly expanding Eastern European construction sector,
[16:49] shipping into Gdansk in Poland takes roughly 22 to 26 days.
[16:53] Okay, here's where it gets really interesting.
[16:55] It is not just about loading generic containers onto a ship and hoping Europe figures it out
[17:00] once it gets there.
[17:00] Right.
[17:01] What is truly impressive is how a single manufacturing facility in Vietnam has mapped
[17:06] out and adapted to the incredibly fragmented hyper-specific building codes of different
[17:12] European nations.
[17:13] It's basically bespoke manufacturing happening on an industrial global scale.
[17:18] What's fascinating here is that Europe is absolutely not a monolith when it comes
[17:22] to construction culture.
[17:24] A board that perfectly satisfies a contractor in Athens might be completely rejected by an
[17:29] inspector in Munich.
[17:30] Oh, absolutely.
[17:31] A mature export operation understands this fragmentation.
[17:34] For example, the German market doesn't just want the standard CE mark.
[17:38] German engineers strictly require DEIN 68705 compliance.
[17:44] They love their rules.
[17:45] They do.
[17:46] And they demand a very specific standardized panel dimension of 2500 by 1250 millimeters
[17:53] and an 18-mil thickness.
[17:55] Vina would actually calibrate specific production lines exclusively to meet that rigid German
[18:00] standard.
[18:01] And the preferences change entirely when you move east.
[18:04] Poland is currently one of the fastest growing construction markets on the continent
[18:07] and Polish site directors have a very strong ingrained preference for dark film
[18:12] phenolic finishes.
[18:13] Yes, they do.
[18:13] So the factory chemically adapts the phenolic pressing process to deliver that
[18:17] exact dark film aesthetic directly to Gibansk.
[18:20] Exactly.
[18:21] The product has to match the regional psychology as well as the physics.
[18:24] That's a great point.
[18:25] Meanwhile, if you look at the French market, they're currently experiencing a massive surge
[18:29] in national infrastructure investment.
[18:31] So that requires high volumes of those, form extra heavy duty boards.
[18:36] And down in Greece and the broader Balkan region.
[18:38] That construction market is highly competitive and extremely cost-sensitive.
[18:43] For them, combining the fastest maritime shipping time, that 16-day route to
[18:48] Piraeus with the budget optimized eco form plus line creates a profoundly effective strategic
[18:54] advantage.
[18:55] And then there is Scandinavia, which is arguably the most brutal environment for
[19:00] poured concrete on earth.
[19:01] Scandinavia operates in its own league entirely.
[19:04] I can imagine.
[19:04] The freezing climate, the relentless freeze thought cycles and the incredibly demanding
[19:09] local building codes dictate that the market demands absolute premium quality.
[19:13] For Scandinavian contractors, the form extra, that EN 6363 certified board that survives the
[19:20] boiling shear tests, that is the non-negotiable choice.
[19:23] You can't mess around with anything less.
[19:24] No, they need...
[19:25] It really is a logistical masterclass.
[19:28] We started this deep dive looking at a 12 million cubic meter problem.
[19:32] And we've seen how it is being solved, port by port, country by country,
[19:37] and building code by building code.
[19:38] It represents the total maturation of global procurement.
[19:42] You are taking the structural and cost benefits of advanced Southeast Asian manufacturing
[19:47] and marrying them perfectly to the unforgiving legal chemical and engineering standards of
[19:52] the European Union.
[19:53] Which brings us to the ultimate takeaway for you, the listener.
[19:56] If you are a procurement manager, a site director, or a main contractor fighting for
[20:00] every fraction of a percent of margin in a hyper competitive European market,
[20:04] the legacy habit of relying solely on traditional Baltic suppliers is no
[20:08] longer your only option.
[20:09] It's just not.
[20:10] Frankly, it may no longer be your best option.
[20:12] Because of verifiable laboratory tested compliance with EN13986 and EN636 standards,
[20:19] because of a massive 15 to 30 percent cost advantage on an FOB basis,
[20:23] and because of highly tailored, predictable ocean logistics
[20:26] delivering to major ports from Rotterdam to Gdansk.
[20:29] The math is hard to argue with.
[20:30] Right.
[20:31] Vietnamese manufacturers like Vinewood are providing a secure,
[20:34] highly viable pathway to break that regional dependency.
[20:38] If you want to verify the technical specs, look at the world test data,
[20:42] or run the container math for your next project,
[20:45] you can get direct quotes and documentation from their team at vinawildtotd.com.
[20:50] As we conclude this analysis, I want to leave you with a broader strategic question
[20:54] that extends far beyond the formwork holding up your next concrete pour.
[20:58] Lay it on us.
[20:59] We have just dissected how a material as heavy, as foundational,
[21:03] and as fiercely regulated as structural plywood
[21:05] can successfully pivot its entire global supply chain 6,000 miles to Vietnam
[21:10] and do it while maintaining absolute compliance and quality.
[21:13] It's wild to think about.
[21:14] It is.
[21:15] If that massive logistical feat is entirely possible right now,
[21:19] if the heavy duty hazmat suit of the construction site
[21:21] can be completely geographically disrupted,
[21:24] what other deeply entrenched, overly expensive legacy European building supply
[21:29] dependencies are sitting in your procurement spreadsheet right now
[21:33] just waiting for a similar disruption?
[21:35] Man, it certainly forces you to look at every single line item,
[21:38] every assumed cost, and every legacy supplier relationship
[21:41] with a completely different level of scrutiny, doesn't it?
[21:44] Keep pushing back on those assumptions,
[21:46] keep looking for those structural advantages,
[21:48] and we will catch you on the next deep dive.