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Join me, Jess VanderWier, a registered psychotherapist, mom of three, and founder of Nurtured First, along with my husband Scott, as we dive deep into the stories of our friends, favourite celebrities, and influential figures.
In each episode, we skip the small talk and dive into vulnerable and honest conversations about topics like cycle breaking, trauma, race, mental health, parenting, sex, religion, postpartum, healing, and loss.
We are glad you are here.
PS: The name Robot Unicorn comes from our daughter. When we asked her what we should name the podcast, she confidently came up with this name because she loves robots, and she loves unicorns, so why not? There was something about the playfulness of the name, the confidence in her voice, and the fact that it represents that you can love two things at once that just felt right.
Welcome to Robot Unicorn, hosted by my parents, Jess and Scott.
I hope you enjoyed the episode.
Alright Jess, welcome back.
We're wearing the same clothes as last week.
Interesting.
Oh wow.
I wonder how that fascinating.
So last week we discussed punitive discipline measures or punishments like physical punishment spanking.
pinching, flicking, smacking, whatever, all that.
Uh harsh verbal discipline.
Mm-hmm.
So yelling, belittling, humiliating
We talked about threats and bribes.
We actually didn't talk too much about rewards.
We should have, but Yeah, that could maybe be a future episode.
We can talk about that.
Different time.
But today we want to talk specifically about timeouts and the claims that they are evidence-based, which on its face is actually true, I will say, after having looked through a bunch of peer-reviewed
articles and studies that have been done, timeouts are actually considered to be evidence-based and are used in a lot of evidence-based parenting.
methodologies.
Yeah, like positive parenting.
Yeah, there's positive parenting program, the incredible years, parent-child interaction therapy.
So it is known to be evidence-based in those specific programs.
And we're talking about evidence-based.
You're talking about evidence-based to reduce challenging behavior.
Yep.
Okay.
Correct.
That's important to note.
What I want to ask you about is why you steer clear of timeouts in general.
Because the claim, and I mean people have asked you this, like you mentioned in the previous episode.
People are asking you, if it's evidence-based and you provide evidence-based practices for parenting, why would you not then say the timeouts are okay?
Well, I mean I have
a lot of reasons.
And so yeah, I just want to touch on that too.
It's like I know that timeouts have been taught for many years as an evidence-based method to reduce behavior.
And that's why I wanted to clarify to reduce behavior.
And so for me
In my approach as a developmentalist, I'm looking at two things.
I talked about that in the last episode.
So I'm looking at the evidence on discipline, right?
And so the evidence on discipline shows authoritative discipline, which is high warmth
high structure is the best type of discipline for the long-term outcomes for kids.
And many people would say that there is a place for timeouts inside of that structured piece.
But I also look from a child development lens
And I look as a developmentalist, what I'm looking at is, is this appropriate from a child development standpoint?
And what does this do to the relationship between the parent and the child
So that's not just looking at behavior.
That's looking like the big picture all over the relationship.
The history of timeouts, what we need to understand, is for a long time spankings were the thing that was taught
Right, how to change behavior.
We spank our children or we inflict physical pain in order to punish them to change behavior.
Yeah, that way they know that behavior is wrong.
And if you do that behavior again, you'll hurt
You will hurt.
And that we talked about last week's episode.
Listen to that if you have questions about spanking.
So timeouts were introduced as a way to help parents get off spanking.
A lot of parents were spanking their kids.
Psychologists were starting to see and the evidence is starting to show that spanking is not the most effective way to change behavior.
In fact, it has a lot of really n negative outcomes
And so these psychologists or people who had been teaching spanking for so many years had to change their tune because the research was showing us that that was not effective anymore
Timeouts came in as a great alternative for parents that didn't involve physical punishment and helped a child, you know, take a break essentially from
the behavior that they were doing, think about what they've done, and then re-enter the situation in the hopes that they will learn their lesson because they've been taken away from the thing that's really positive that they're enjoying to do
They have to sit alone for a couple of minutes, think about what they've done, and hopefully they stop doing that behavior, right?
And there is evidence to show that if children do that, they take a break, you know, by themselves for X amount of minutes
And they come back over time they learn that that behavior's not okay because there's that punishment there, right?
Or that removal of the positive
stimuli that they have, the positive reinforcement.
Yeah, which a lot of the research says that, but if I remember psychology 101 that I took in university, removing a positive reinforcement is like saying negative punishment.
you're removing something positive, therefore it's an in psychological terms a negative punishment.
So it's still a punishment.
Yeah, still a pun.
Yeah, time loads are a punishment.
It's important.
So because of that, a lot of psychologists, psychotherapists, a lot of doctors started teaching timeouts because we wanted to get parents away from spanking.
Which makes total sense.
And there is evidence to suggest that some behavioral change can happen, right?
And that's where it started entering into all of these programs.
So that's the history on timeouts.
Now, there's some flaws and this is why I don't teach timeouts and I don't promote them.
One of the flaws of timeouts is that
in even this evidence and maybe you have the definition there, everything it says is when it's used properly, it can change behavior.
But like so much research says, parents don't use it properly the majority of the time.
Right.
So parents hear the words timeouts are effective for changing behavior.
So they tell themselves, oh perfect.
So when my child's misbehaving, I can just send them to their room on their own to cry.
Or I can set them on the stairs for however long I want them to sit there.
Or
I can yell at them from across the room, go to timeout, stop hitting your brother.
And what's happened is it's just become a way of parenting and
Parents don't really even know what the effective way to use it is.
It's just a blanket.
I'm using a timeout.
So that's the first thing.
And not even close to the only problem that I have with it, but that's the first big problem I have
is definitions, right?
And it's very loose when it comes to timeout.
Like every parent I talk to pretty much has a defin definition as to what a timeout is.
And in my own opinion, I'm not basing this on like a study that I've seen recently.
In my own opinion, if you're using a timeout, like let's say our daughter is having a really hard time, she's crying, she's she's mad, she keeps hitting her sister with a toy.
I'm like, hey, let's go to your room, let's take a time out together, and let's just calm down before we re-enter the living room.
And I've done that recently.
And together we'll go to her room.
Maybe we'll read some books or we'll do something to kind of dysregulate the nervous system and then we come back downstairs again and she's feeling refreshed and less dysregulated and we're good to go.
So I use it in that way.
I'd say based on
The research that I was finding, and I will say your comments from before about parents don't use it correctly, that's 100% the case.
All the research I could find was saying that it's effective.
under very strict protocols and done never as a punishment, never like it's
Only when the child's calm, only when they're incredibly strict the protocols you are you should be using for it to be considered effective.
Yes.
Yeah, so the time in, yes, that is correct.
Uh what I will say is that some could argue that by doing a time-in with the child that just hit the other child.
you're now reinforcing that behavior of them hitting their sister.
So what would you have to say to that?
This is when we get to specifics again.
Like it so depends on the situation.
Like why is my child hitting their sister?
Are they hitting them because they're so dysregulated and exhausted and they haven't had a snack after school and then their sister just like did one thing and they're three years old and they lost their mind?
Like yeah, then I would probably take them away with me, get them a snack
Help them regulate and they're fine and I wouldn't really be that worried.
I'm reinforcing the heading.
What I'm doing is calming the nervous system.
Right?
But if I have an a child who's intentionally
hitting, looking at me to see what kind of attention or connection they're gonna get from me when they're hitting and I'm taking them and oh honey you're hitting oh
Yeah, I'm probably reinforcing the heading.
I would have a different response.
That's why my thing that I always talk about in Nurture First is get curious.
We have to figure out what the root cause is of this behavior.
dysregulation and seeking connection, I will have two different responses for.
So again, another reason I don't love timeouts is because if that's the blanket approach we're using
Sometimes you're reinforcing the behavior.
I've seen kids who have had timeouts, aka being sent to their room or sent to the principal's office, reinforcing the behavior, which is I don't want to be in this room right now.
Right.
And so then they learn when I misbehave
I get sent to be in my room by myself, or I get sent to the principal's office, I'd rather be there.
And so it actually gets a need met for them
So this is like my problem.
This is another one of my big problems with timeouts is if it's just a blanket thing that you use, we're often missing the point.
Like we're missing the tuning in with why is my child behaving this way
And we might actually be reinforcing the behavior we don't want to see more of.
Right.
Okay, so you say using it as a blanket method.
Mm-hmm.
But what if you don't use it as a blanket method?
But you only use it for those situations where, let's say, our youngest is hitting one of their sisters, which doesn't happen.
incredibly often, but if it happens once every week or every couple weeks that they're hitting someone with a toy, that's not constant.
Mm-hmm.
So is that a problem to use it then?
So again, a problem and is developmentally appropriate two different questions.
Okay.
So in the evidence, like you were saying, in the evidence-based timeouts
It's very clear the definitions.
One of the clear definitions in evidence-based timeouts is the child is calm.
Okay.
How often do you have a child hitting who is also calm?
Like in my opinion, very rare.
that a child's just hitting and regulated at the same time.
So the the idea of putting a hitting three-year-old into timeout by themselves
It's just not developmentally appropriate because Well, based on what I'm reading, they don't necessarily have to be or what I read, they don't necessarily have to be calm.
Okay.
Sitting in their timeout.
The technical definition is
And I think this is a behavioral definition, but time out from positive reinforcement.
And it removes a child from parental attention and enjoyable stimuli.
at the same time.
So you are ignoring them.
They're sitting and they're just trying to calm down.
And then once they're calm, which again it's not used as like in the heat of the moment, you're not angry and saying
You're in timeout and you're incredibly angry.
It's you're supposed to be, as a parent, incredibly boring about the whole thing.
Mm-hmm.
You're bringing them to their step.
You're saying, okay, you have to sit here.
And I just want you to calm down.
And when you're calm, come join and play with us again.
And then you just leave them.
You're not trying to punish them.
You're not trying to I mean technically the term means timeout.
From positive reinforcement means timeout negative punishment.
Yeah.
But
So I get I get the logic behind it.
Like I totally get it.
And I can see how for some kids maybe that can be effective and just like
the little break that they need.
And I I think for some kids, they're engaged like if we think about behavior, they're engaging in this behavior because they're dysregulated, there's too much going on, and maybe they just need a break.
And that way in my own head I would phrase that as a break.
Like hey hun, you need a little break
Why don't we sit on the step for a sec?
I'm right here.
Let's say I'm like tending to the baby.
I'm right here.
Uh but why don't you just sit on the step for a sec, have a break, let's take some deep breaths before you go back in
Yep.
That's how I would phrase it.
I wouldn't phrase it as time out because I think the word has so much baggage to it that as soon as you say time out, there's
certain things like we're thinking, you know, sending the kid to the room alone who's crying and screaming, don't come out until you stop crying.
Okay, so then here's where I bring in the child development piece.
You think about a toddler's brain, how do they learn how to regulate their emotions with a regulated caregiver?
The problem I have with timeouts the majority of the time is that again, we are using a child's attachment to us and closeness to us against them.
Yep.
Like they love us so much that they want to behave.
So we say, I'll withdraw my love until you behave.
And I don't think that's healthy and I don't think that's what we want to teach our kids long term.
Like I think the withdrawing love and affection from a child in order to get them to act the way that you want in any other relationship would be toxic.
It's still a manipulative way of getting someone to do that.
If I did that to you, that would be considered me being toxic towards you.
But to our kids somehow that's okay.
And that's my big problem with timeouts.
And because we know like again there's new research.
There's more research out there.
Now we understand child development better than we ever have before.
So a way of looking at parenting that was very behavioral in nature
Now we have more data on child development.
And so we have to consider that.
Just how once banking was talked about, we had to consider timeouts because we knew that there was a better option
Now, in my opinion, sure timeouts are okay, they're there, like not okay, but timeouts are there, they're an option, and we have more data on child development and how kids' brains work.
And so to just simply say, well, we should still use them because they change behavior.
Well, my goal is not to just change my child's behavior.
My goal is also to teach them how to regulate their emotions, to help them learn new skills, to get curious about why they're having a hard time
to show them that I'm in a connected relationship with them and to teach them how to regulate through repeated exposures to my calm.
That's my goal as a parent.
And I don't see for me how timeouts fit into that goal.
And then also I see a child doesn't have the ability to think logically or reasonably when they're upset and dysregulated.
So the idea that I get my child to sit on a step as they're crying for X amount of minutes to reflect on the actions that they just did.
is not realistic either.
And in a nutshell TED Talk, those are my kind of key reasons why I don't promote timeouts.
But I will say quiet breaks can be really helpful.
And so it's just in the way you phrase it to your kid.
Well, no, that's a different method though.
Yeah, that's different.
But I I think like I think where timeouts sometimes people are like, It did help my kid.
But what they're really doing is just giving their kid a break from the the overstimulating situation.
Right.
And that's different to me.
Yes.
What I will say is, so I touched on this earlier, but the research that I found on this either very annoyingly did not describe or define what the appropriate use of timeouts was and then said
Well, based on this 30-minute questionnaire that 450 parents filled out.
And it was still a peer-reviewed article, but we see no issue with timeouts done properly and negative outcomes for their children like
mentally, emotionally, cognitively, all of that.
And I just find that I found that kind of annoying.
But any of the ones that did define it said
It has to be done in a very specific way.
It can't be used as a punishment or as like you can't be angry as a parent when you're doing it.
And if you can't control your anger in that moment and you can't calmly put your child into the timeout, then right there
Don't do that.
It's automatically it's not as effective anymore.
The other thing that a lot of these articles were suggesting was that essentially you have to have an authoritative
home.
So you have to have that warm structure in your home.
And then if you are consistent in your use of boundaries and a timeout is one of the things that you use to let's say punish your child for doing something, but they're
aware of that ahead of time, it can be effective.
But a lot of these articles suggested that most parents have no idea how to actually do it effectively or
we're not capable.
Like I don't know that I would be capable of doing that in a way that I wasn't annoyed or angry.
Yeah.
And also like for let's say our home with three kids, could we really do
like so much structure in terms of the timeout every single time our child was doing something.
I don't know and like one of the other like issues I have even with all those things, where's the new skills?
Yeah, so that I mean that's another thing that
None of those touched on.
The articles that I found, and this makes sense, are purely behavioral, so they're saying it's effective because it changes the behavior in that moment.
Some of them were suggesting that it can change behavior long term as well.
But again, the only c situations where that was the case is if it was done properly.
Yeah, I don't know.
I struggle because what is the need?
In my opinion.
Like you could do
the timeout perfect, but if the child is engaging in the hitting to get the timeout because they're overstimulated and they need a break
You are not teaching them new way to ask for a break.
But I think that's what the research was suggesting, which is why I found
All the sweeper research incredibly annoying because it's not like they're looking that deep into it.
It's just It's so behavioral.
It's very much
If you do it in the appropriate way.
So that means though, that in an authoritative home, you're understanding that your child isn't doing that behavior because they're seeking attention from you.
You should be able to understand what why they're doing it.
Right.
Right?
Which is
I think unreasonable.
I don't even know if you in the moment, if you have all three kids upset, if you would even be able to do that in that moment.
You might be able to reflect on it later.
So what I've found was that yes, it's evidence based.
That is true if you look at in-the-moment behaviors and the reduction of them if you do it in the exact right environment with the exact right protocol or method
That's not saying there's no better ways to do it.
I'm just saying that's that's what the evidence suggests is that it is actually effective, but you have to do it perfectly, essentially, for it to be effective.
Hey friends, so at pickup last week our daughter asked Scott a truly kind of tricky question in front of her younger siblings.
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Here's a question or pushback I have for you.
So if it's effective, let's say, in changing hitting
Okay, so the child stops hitting, but they still have that same need.
So then they start kicking.
What I'm wondering is if the the goal is to not teach a new skill.
Right?
That's my goal in discipline with my kids, our kids is still show them.
Well, I what again this is supposed to be used with like the positive parenting
method and with all the other and again that's why I'm saying it has to be done in the perfect environment for it to be truly effective.
Right.
So you have to explain next time we have to go through this.
You have to do it in this way, or you shouldn't hit because you have to think about it from their perspective.
Like if you had a toy and they wanted it and they hit you, like you can't go.
Yeah, okay
You ha you do have to go through all of those things on top of timeouts.
And again, timeouts can't be used as a punishment.
It's just for essentially calming them down.
Yeah.
That's it.
And you're ignoring them.
You're just letting them sit in their own on their own just to calm down.
Which I guess maybe some kids have the skills to do.
Yeah, right.
But you also would need to tune in with your child and see if your child can actually do that on their own and not be adding minutes to the timeout timer because they're not calming themselves down.
Right.
That's a skill that they don't have.
Again, all of this is
That's the problem I had with any of the research I found.
And maybe if you're listening and you know of better research, I went through I don't know how many different articles.
I think f in preparation for this one, the last one, I had seventy articles that I went through.
I honestly w again was trying to
find a way to debate you on this.
But what I found was the studies were designed in such specific environments to study such specific behaviors that it's hard for me to say, yes, this makes sense to use everywhere all the time.
Like it's almost like saying this worked on lab rats, so therefore it works on every single animal that exists in the I don't maybe that's a bad a poor analogy, but it's it kind of felt that way.
It works in the lab, so it should work in relay
Yeah.
When we're talking about parents in real life who are of course dysregulated and upset and and then they hear time and like that's my problem.
I guess
that's when I see people who say they're psychologists or data analysts or whatever and they say timeouts are evidence-based and parents take that as, oh sweet.
Okay, great.
This is such a good tool for me.
But when I see that in clinical practice being used in real life, it's
Go to your room until you're calm.
Sitting there until you're calm.
The child's screaming and crying in their room.
They're two years old.
They cannot regulate their emotions on their own.
And we're saying that's evidence-based.
And and like parents are like, no, this is evidence-based.
Well, even older than that, it doesn't older, five.
Based on the discussions we've had on this podcast.
that's not developmentally appropriate, even potentially up until like seven years old.
Right.
And even still there's alternatives.
Yeah.
Better alternatives.
That's kind of what I was coming to the conclusion of.
It's
Not as though it's not possible to use timeouts because they can potentially be effective.
But if you measure them against
alternatives like using the authoritative method and using let's say a time in so you're instead trying to connect with them and calm them and then eventually teaching them and all that stuff.
But you're not leaving them on their own and making them worried that you're not going to love them anymore internally because they did something bad so they have to go to the room or sit on the step.
Like there are alternatives that aren't also potentially harmful
for attachment.
Yeah.
Which I think is the key.
Like based on what you're saying, I was trying to figure out how do we reconcile that timeouts are evidence based for behavior, but potentially harmful for attachment after I read through all of this.
Yeah, and I've spoken with some of
the leading psychologists in the fields of child development who would say that timeouts in the way many parents use them, like go to your room until you're calm, can actually be more harmful.
than spanking.
Because spanking, there's like an element of like I'm still with you.
Whereas timeouts can be an element of you are by yourself with your feelings.
And I like
remove my love until you act in the way that I want you to.
Not in the way you're talking about, but in the way that they're often used.
And that confuses me a little bit.
Is that
That is hard for me to Emotionally.
Yeah, emo okay, emotionally.
Emotionally.
More difficult because let's say that is your every time you misbehave your parent just sends you to be by yourself
Right.
Or every time you don't act as like in this perfect way your child your parent sends you to be by yourself.
What message does that give you long term, right?
Right.
It's like the revoking of just even my physical self from you until you behave the way I want you to.
And I think you and I and our goal and just parenting and everything we teach on this podcast is not to raise perfect angels who feel so afraid of us that they don't that that's why they behave, right?
We want them to behave because of that right relationship, not because of
fear of our response or because their word will revoke our love from them.
And that's like the greater like that's not the evidence-based timeouts or whatever, but that's just what we see and how it
actually used in real life.
And this is where I have such an issue with people just saying blanket statements.
It's evidence-based and it won't ruin attachment without you have to talk about all of the pieces of it in order to have like a robust discussion on it.
Yeah and the again the articles
that I found on it being evidence based, so it working and also not ruining attachment.
It again
the methodology of like that parents need to use in order to use them correctly.
The barrier is so high that to me it seems like it's just a better idea to say
No to timeouts in general because there are alternatives and timeouts like yes they are
evidence based for a specific outcome under specific conditions of implementation and yeah maybe there's some trade-offs with development but that is unclear to me based on everything I everything I was able to find
Yeah.
So at the end of the day, would you feel confident, comfortable using timeouts with any of our kids?
Uh no.
I mean at this point no.
And I mean there might be some inherent bias because you've been talking to me about a lot of this stuff for years, but
I was truthfully trying to kind of prove you wrong when I was going through the research because I was like, maybe there is some legitimacy to it.
You can't have a a full discussion without actually leaning into this and fully reading the research and trying to prove me wrong.
I think it's important that you do that.
So I'm glad you did.
Yeah, and I read some different articles like written by people that are well known in the field and they just asked a couple questions or a few questions and they followed the do no harm principle.
So some of them were asking, rather than asking, does timeouts or this discipline method work to stop the behavior, so rather than asking that
The better questions are, is this safe for long-term development and are there less harmful alternatives?
And I thought that was an interesting way to frame it.
I mean it's hard to think that in the moment.
That's why I think for parents
These decisions around punishments, timeouts, or the other ones we talked about in the last episode, you have to make those decisions before you're ever in the moment.
Like for me, timeouts have always been just off the table.
It's never been an option.
As soon as it's an option, then you're using it in the moment because you're dysregulated
I think like in our parenting course, like the first thing I do is like talk about your negotiables and non-negotiables discipline and just have that so that you're not
pulling from a strategy in the moment when you're already having a hard time.
Because I think that's when parents are using it a lot, right?
Yeah.
And then later they regret it.
But if it's not
If this or spanking or threats or whatever, this is not something you want to do, then you need to tell yourself that's not an option for me in this moment.
And that will help you connect with your kids.
Well and try and find different options.
Other options.
Which I mean the time in like you were explaining, sitting them with them in that and trying to regulate them.
I mean that's just the typical way we help
kids through their difficult emotions, right?
Their big feelings.
Like we've talked about, the parent-child relationship is quality is more predictive of positive outcomes than any specific
disciplinary technique, which I think is true across the board.
But if we follow that and the do no harm principle, if that's what we're trying to accomplish, I feel like there is a risk in doing harm with timeouts because they go
Yes, they're evidence-based, but they're not measured against all aspects of child development either.
And it sort of goes against what we know about child development.
So again, the most important thing, you're not supposed to do things perfectly, but the relationship that you have with your child is the foundation.
And then you were talking about skills versus compliance.
So like if we want to actually teach our kids still skills
Putting them in timeout doesn't necessarily teach them or punishing them doesn't actually teach them the skill that they need the next time they're in that situation.
Or
I mean with young kids, it could take a hundred times before they actually learn.
So effective discipline teaches that self-regulation, empathy, and problem solving rather than
just achieving immediate compliance.
Yeah.
I mean there's maybe situations where your child is running across the road and you need to yank them back before they run into the road.
And that might hurt, but you need to do that so they don't get hit by a car.
Of course.
Safety first.
Always.
Yeah
But I think those situations are pretty rare.
I wrote kind of a final thoughts for this just because of how much.
This took me a lot of energy and effort to put this He's been putting this together for a long time, so
I think skepticism regarding broad claims of evidence-based practices, such as those sometimes made with timeouts or other discipline strategies, so that skepticism I think is often warranted.
I think it's important.
I'm
Highly skeptical.
That's why I try and prove you wrong.
And I think it's important to ask what so evidence-based, let's say timeouts, evidence-based for what specific outcome
under what specific conditions of implementation and with what potential trade-offs for other areas of development.
So I think that's important to think about with all research when we're talking about parenting.
Yeah.
A technique like the timeout can be evidence-based for reducing non-compliance in specific populations of children when implemented or used with very strict protocols and when
used under like a whole comprehensive parenting program.
So if you're literally following everything in Jess's parenting little kids course to a T, it can potentially help.
But there's a big risk in not doing it properly if you don't follow the strict protocols.
Yeah, and I teach the time in in the parenting course.
Right.
And this narrow definition of effectiveness doesn't mean that concerns about its impact, its impact on child's emotional well-being or attachment security when it's used often in isolation or as
Punishment.
Yeah, I think there's still that risk there.
So I think evidence-based, whatever we like we talk about evidence-based as well.
But it's more, I think, we try to talk more in broad terms, like this is the general consensus and we try and take behavior and
development into account where I think a lot of research they're focused on one aspect but not the other.
So evidence base should not be a blanket endorsement and it still needs a skeptical eye on the scope, limitations and broader implications of the evidence.
And by understanding
I think all of these complexities, parents and caregivers can make more informed choices that truly nurture their child's potential, which I think we can say is kind of the main goal of parenting.
Yeah.
It's nurturing a child's true potential.
Yeah.
And knowing that that comes into play when the child is in that right relationship with their parent.
Right.
And I think the fear with not using a timeout is, well then will my kid learn how to behave?
And the answer is yes.
They will learn how to behave without punishments through you
through your guidance, through your co-regulation, your modeling and teaching new skills, you don't need to use timeouts to teach them how to behave.
Yeah.
Doesn't mean that you're not setting boundaries.
You're not
You don't let them do whatever they want, but it just means that these like punitive measures and timeouts are not the most effective way of actually doing those things.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
I think that's really important for parents to know.
It's not like, oh, all hope is lost then.
Like actually there's a ton of hope.
There's so many other strategies and tools we have now that maybe we didn't have when timeouts became super popular in the 90s, you know, and early 2000s.
We have more tools now, so we can use them and support our kids and help their development and emotional well-being as well.
Yeah, and uh honestly, lately
Because we've been doing that the episodes in this manner, where I get to do a bunch of research and understand a bit more of the child development and behavioral aspects.
I've looked at our kids
And like there's I'm almost more excited to be their parent now because I'm starting to understand more of what we're doing and the reason why we're doing these things.
Yeah.
And we're parenting in this way.
And the fact that I'm trying to unlock
for them, their full potential.
Yeah, and it's all right there for us.
Right.
It's all right there.
That's the thing.
It's kind of exciting.
It's the best job in the world.
Like it it it truly is.
It's the most important thing we can do.
nurture their potential that's there instead of just crush it out of them, you know, to make them these compliant kids.
Like it's all there and we just have to be there to facilitate it.
Yep.
Awesome.
Well, hopefully you enjoyed this, Jess.
I loved it.
Listeners enjoyed it.
It's a it was a little more science-y than uh in the past, but
It was like kind of exciting for me to I like I loved reading the research.
This is all stuff I've read, but I think it's really important to bring it in so it's not just like just saying, you know, we have the data to support it.
Thank you all.
This is great.
Perfect.
Thanks for listening.
See you next week.
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