Chapter + Verse

What is Chapter + Verse?

A faith-forward podcast for people who love Jesus but also love being honest about how weird and wonderful life can be. Hosts Kerrye and Jill tell stories about the Bible, talk about their faith, and dig into what it looks like to follow God through the ordinary chaos of everyday, imperfect life. Real conversations. Real stories. No pretending to have it all together. Pull up a chair, turn the page, and let's go.

Welcome to Chapter and Verse, where people
come on and tell their real stories,

faith, failure, redemption, and the
occasional, "Lord, what are you doing?"

moment.

Some inspiring, some messy,
and some that probably should

have come with a warning label.

Because through every chapter of
every story, God is still writing.

And He's not afraid of a little chaos.

This is Jill.

And Carrie.

Let's turn the page.

Well, we're here with
our good friend, Raven.

Uh, and we, I justâ¦

I wanna jump into how we met.

So- Who's gonna start?

Well, I mean, like I don't, I don't
guess officially how we met because I

don't even remember how we really met.

Do you remember how we all met?

Like, like obviously- I mean- â¦ we
knew each other from church.

Yeah.

But like, I don't remember the moment
somebody- I do not remember- â¦ we

started talking â¦ any formally meeting.

I just remember knowing who you were
because- 'Cause you're a pastor.

'Cause you're a pastor.

Yeah.

But, and that's- And I just
know that I had a intimidated-

understanding of Jill because- â¦ she
was very direct, and so anytime

I heard of Jill, I said, "Okay."

Just steer clear.

I didn't wanna be her friend.

I mean- Listen- I feel like
that's a lot of people.

When they f- when they see you,
they're like, "Oh, she's very direct."

I remember thinking that too.

But I also remember- I'm not intimidating.

People are intimidated.

That's on them, not me.

True.

I, I do my best.

Like, I, I understand I can
come across domineering.

I can come across abrupt and abrasive.

I really do try to soften that, but
at the end of the day, like, if you're

intimidated, then that's on you.

And the first time we- Ask me.

Be like, "Girl."

I think you'reâ¦

Okay.

"Slow your roll."

This is early morning
Jill- â¦ giving this opinion.

I am.

I think if you talk to the evening
Jill, she'd be like, "Well, I

don't wanna be intimidating."

Yeah, I'm a little
feistier in the morning.

She's, like, got a lot of energy.

Do you wanna turn that off?

It's fine.

Oh, okay.

We have a little air conditioner on.

Um, but- The first time I
met Jill, she was very, very

nice, and I tried to run away.

Um, I don't know if I was succ-
successful, but- Well, if she's not,

she caught you â¦ all that to say, all
that to say, like, she was very nice.

That was my first interaction ever
with her, and there was- The reputation

that preceded me was just incorrect.

Yeah, and I think if, when you-
Maybe â¦ find out, oh, you know, somebody

like Raven is intimidating, then you,
like, probably go out of your way-

Yeah â¦ to- Yeah â¦ not be that way.

Now, I really shouldn't say that, 'cause
that was gonna be like, now if you, if she

didn't like and didn't care, she would go
out of her way to be extra intimidating.

Listen, I wouldn't go out of my way
to be extra intimidating, but I also

would not go out of my way to soften.

Same.

Like, ifâ¦

Again, I've said this before on the pod.

Like, never, not everybody is gonna
be everybody else's cup of tea.

True.

That's okay.

True.

That's okay.

Be kind, be you, be your friend â¦ I
wanted to be your friend 'cause I, I

guess in my mind, 'cause I didn't know
I was, needed an extrovert friend.

Like, I didn't think of
myself as an introvert.

But I was like, "I need her."

Are, you mean me or Evan?

Yes.

Oh, gotcha.

I was like, "I need her to,
to speak for me sometimes."

But anyway, so I think the first time
we really connected was actually, like,

started to connect was the planning
of the RFA ladies, uh, cruise- Right

two years ago.

Yeah.

And, um, so I remember, like â¦ And
then there was a little book

study that me and you were in.

I forget about that sometimes-
Pre- â¦ until you mention it

every time â¦ pre, uh, cruise.

So I kinda sat by you and, um- You
kinda got some vibes from me â¦ Rachel.

You were able to- And I was
like- â¦ help, help me out.

Because, um, my opinion of you was
that you were extra, extra holy

because- Which is hilarious coming
from the pastor, you know what I mean?

Well, and I was like, "She's like,
she's an extra, extra holy," uh,

be- Tell, tell them why â¦ because
she had praise and worship at her

wedding, and if you have praise and
worship at your wedding, my opinion

of you is you're extra, extra holy.

And I don't know if you would
accept my little- That's all it

takes â¦ flaws and everything.

That's all it takes is praise and
worship music- â¦ at your wedding.

So if you had praise and worship
music at your wedding, you're

extra, extra holy in my book.

You are closer to Jesus than I am.

I did not have- Nope

praise and worship at my
wedding and- Me neither.

Mine was in Vegas, so.

Yeah.

Definitely not there.

Definitely not.

But anyway, so when I first met
you, I had â¦ Not that you're

not holy and righteous and all the
things, but you're not extra, extra.

Like, we're at, you're not
above the- Thanks, Gary.

You're not in the lofty- You don't

I am very much- â¦ heavens
you can come down to earth.

I think, I think what she means is
you don't come across- No â¦ as

though you carry yourself to be
holier than those around you.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

That is- Yeah â¦ the
last thing I want to do.

Yeah.

Mission completed.

So we, we solidified
this trio- On the cruise

on the cruise.

I think the cruise was w- this is
the best thing that came out of the

cruise is our friendship at the end.

Oh, 10,000%.

100%, yeah.

Yeah.

I, I would e- So- 10,000%, I
like that â¦ you, you roomed

with our other friend, DeJana.

No.

Yeah.

Yes.

Okay.

DeJana we didn't leave DeJana out
of any of our little trio, but

DeJana embraced the cruise culture.

We didn't see her a lot
except for at meals.

Um- She was everywhere â¦ she
did everything she could.

Like, she went to the shows and
she met the, what do you call it?

The cruise director.

Cruise director.

She- She knew the girl by
name â¦ yeah, she m- she's like,

"Well, Stephanie says," and I was
like, "We didn't bring a Stephanie."

Who's Stephanie?

And so we finally were
like, "Um, who's Stephanie?"

'Cause I really, honestly when she
said that first I was like, "She thinks

somebody in our group's name is Stephanie
and she doesn't know their real name."

Oh, no.

Turns out she was making
friends with everybody.

She made friends.

I did, every night we, we went to
the room, I would get a rundown of

her day and I'm like, "All right."

I thought we would be
hanging out a little.

I was not offended, 0% offended.

But I thought she would d- I was
putting my need on her in the sense

of I thought she was gonna need
someone also to hang out, and she

definitely was Miss Independent.

And so- â¦ I had people that adopted
me, thankfully, because- Yeah.

I wouldn't- And tell your
favorite moment on the cruise.

I mean, I don't really know
what your favorite moment

was, but let's share a moment.

The one that I was absent for.

Maybe, yeah.

I have two.

Okay.

One each of you were absent with,
but- The one, the, the minute I knew

Jill and I would be friends Is we
were trying to stay up late to go to

an event, and she, boom, told me her
entire life story, and I'm like- Yeah

so deathly tired.

I'm like trying to toothpick my eyes open.

Well, was, was that just
asleep or- You were somewhere.

No.

I think you were- We, we wereâ¦

It was we were waiting for
them to do the karaoke.

Right.

Uh- And we needed to take a
break from what- Gotcha â¦ was

going on in that room.

Yeah, that was a late night.

And you were like loving every second
of what was going on in that room.

I think mostly because you
were just tired, and that's

what you needed to stay awake.

I was slap happy with that.

Yep.

Yeah, Caitlin and I,
we're gonna do a- Yeah.

We did do a- You did do a song.

Because I will if no- if
I'm on a cruise, sure.

Who's, who cares?

Yeah.

Anyway.

I think there might be a video somewhere,
but- So you, that's what made you- I

don't have it â¦ let's talk about that.

That made you connect to Jill
'cause she just spilled her guts.

Yeah.

She spilled her guts.

Yeah.

And I was doing everything in my power
to stay awake and like capture all of it,

and I, I think I did for the most part.

Don't ask me for a report, but yeah.

I mean, I'm pretty sure that we've
discussed those things again.

Since.

And, and yeah.

And so that was definitely one of myâ¦

And just in my mind I'm like, just
I wish Jill could've been in my mind

as she was telling me all this stuff.

Not that it was anything crazy,
but I was just so like eager

to just connect and understand.

But also like, "Stay awake, stay
awake, stay awake, stay awake."

And I can tell her that.

It's just funny.

But then my other moment that
until you told me, until we like

reviewed the whole process, I thought
Jill was there the entire time.

And she was not.

In my mind, Jill was the video.

What's that effect called where you're
like, "I know that person," or that

situation happened but it didn't?

The Mandela effect?

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah, something.

I was convinced Jill was there, but
we had gotten into the elevator.

I don't even know how it started.

Uh, me and elevators have a- A thing?

Yes, I get real nervous and
so I just start being funny.

Listen, this girl, I'm surprised that
she didn't turn around and shove her

face into the corner of the elevator-

because that's what she does.

Why?

That would've just made
it- Because I'm awkward.

First of all, I don't like elevators
â¦ that would've made it even better.

That would've- But a kid came on.

Yes.

And that started, and I, me, me and kids,
I like to listen to them and laugh with

them and stuff, but he said something.

There was just a comment that was
made, and I cannot to this day

remember, and it was a younger boy.

He might've been like 9 or 10.

Mm-hmm.

And his father, and they just- Put fuel to
my fire 'cause I had started laughing and

they noticed I had laughed and, likeâ¦

But then every once in a while, I get
these moments that I'm so tickled, and

then I'm tickled that I'm tickled, and
I just can't breathe and can't stop, and

it just gets worse and worse and worse.

It is the best- And, like- â¦ when
she gets going like that â¦ and

I had tears in my eyes.

I was all but trying not to, like,
lose my feet underneath me and, likeâ¦

And that just made me, that's,
like, a match to gasoline.

I was like, "Let's keep it going.

Let's think of funny things to say."

And sheâ¦

So she, and I'm trying to
calm down and get my breath-

so I don't, like, pass out, butâ¦

Yeah.

I like it when you laugh and
you cover your mouth, and you

tilt your head slightly up.

And that's funny 'cause there's no sound.

And at first, the very first time,
I guess, in that elevator, I was

like, "Is she laughing or justâ¦"

Panicking.

And then I could tell, like,
you took a gasp or something.

I just- I was like, "Oh, she's laughing.

Let's keep this going."

So- I'm really bummed I missed it.

And then we went toâ¦

Did you join us in the chapel?

Yes.

Okay.

That's right.

Went to the very top part
of the boat to the chapel.

Is that what we did?

And we were, likeâ¦

I was still in that mood.

Oh, okay.

And, um, but there were
serious people there.

Yeah, I think we had to leave.

We had to leave.

And they didn't ask us to leave, but-
The pastor couldn't control herself.

Well, okay.

I'll d- Let's put pictures of
the chapel, and then you'll know.

It's just- I was like, "This is chapel."

It almostâ¦

I don't know if you've ever, uh, the
Precious Moments thing in Branson.

I've never been there, but
it has that vibe to it.

It does.

It's, like, very cart- not cartoonish.

Yeah.

But cheesy.

That's a good ad- Like- That's a
good adjective because it's just,

like, I mean, I was giggling.

It was Sunday morning- Mm-hmm â¦ and
so that's why we decided to go, and I

was like- I didn't realize- â¦ just
was not feeling the spirit at all.

And these people were, and there
wasn't a lot of people there.

So, you know when it's, it would
remind me of a childhood service.

You know when- Where you're
just trying to contain yourself?

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

And I was like, "I can't laugh."

Well, that's just now in my head.

Yeah.

You know?

If you tell yourself you can't
laugh, that's all you're gonna do.

Yeah, making, getting in trouble and-
â¦ like, someone does a, you know, a squeak.

And then you're like, "Okay,
we gotta get outta here."

And then we ran into that family one
or two more times, and I guess that we

had become known for that moment in the
elevator, and they, like, every time

we would cross them, they would say hi.

I don't know if you remember that.

Yes.

Like, "Hey."

Like, "Ooh."

Instantly became bonding friends over.

And that was unusual
because cruises are big.

It was a near-death experience,
you know, for you, so.

Yeah, I mean, I was- You couldn't breathe.

I could not breathe.

It was that funny.

Anyway, so that, that cruise, it's like
we had always known each other, you know?

Yeah.

And so we've been- Friends
since â¦ Three Musketeers.

So we wanted to hear about
a chapter in your, um, life.

And tell us a little bit about
yourself first so we know- Um,

usually when people ask how I'm doing,

I usually say I'm momming,
I'm wifing, and I'm working.

So I'm a mom to s- two sweet girls.

Mm-hmm.

One is five and one is three, and
I absolutely love them so much.

Um, I am married to my husband.

We're about to celebrate
I think it's eight years.

I'll have to math.

We have had two weddings, which I
can talk about that in a minute.

Um, and so we always go off of
our first wedding, but it's- Well,

yeah, that's, the first one counts.

Yeah.

That's what stamped it for- Yeah â¦ yeah.

And so I think it's eight years.

We say eight Mozambican years.

Um, and then I work and I am
a mental health therapist, and

so I absolutely love what I do.

I have said if Iâ¦

I'm not gonna win the lottery,
and I don't play the lottery.

But if I ever won the lottery, I'd still
do what I do, maybe on a lesser scale.

But I absolutely love being
a mental health therapist.

So that's a little bit about me.

Yeah.

That's, that's a good place to
be when you know, I would still

do this and not get paid for it.

You know?

Mm-hmm.

That's when you know you're doing
what you're supposed to be doing.

Right.

I am not doing that.

Yeah.

Noted.

I, I just- Like, I- â¦ when I was saying
that, I was like- My job is not that

Jill probably does not feel this way, but-
I don't â¦ maybe I even feel this way.

Listen, I'm a big proponent that
you don't have to feel that way.

Like, if your job is financially
sustainable for you and allows you to

do all the things, like, that's- As
long as you're not, like- That's great

â¦ hating your life every day- Right

you go to work.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

I think you're good.

Okay.

So, um, I think you're
gonna share about, likeâ¦

This is another reason I thought you were
holy, because you went on a missions trip.

Oh, yes.

I lived overseas.

Yeah.

We're gonna talk about that.

Yeah.

Um, yes.

I lived in Mozambique for around about
five years, um, pretty much all throughout

my 20s, and if I was there, I was planning
to come back here to have, um, like

holidays or something, or, and if I was
here, I was planning to go back there.

And so all of my 20s were spent- Planning
travel Back and forth â¦ going back and

forth between Mozambique and, in here.

And so- Howâ¦

That's crazy to think about.

Like, I- What made you pick that?

That is a good question.

I think- God.

I really think God,
but I mean, like- Yeah.

â¦ do you know why it popped
in your head there?

Um, yeah.

So it, I went my very first time after my
freshman year of college for a month, and

I just was like, "Hey, Mom, I'm going."

And she was like, "All right."

And I was likeâ¦

And I just, it's almost
like I know this is-

interesting to compare it to, but like the
cruise, we were just laughing about it.

I was not gonna go 'cause the person
I went with backed out, but just

something in me was like, "Go."

And I don't even second-guess
it, I just do it.

Mm-hmm.

And so like this, it was like,
"You're gonna go to a foreign

country and go for a month."

Granted, I was with other people
to start with, but by the end of

it I was going by myself, and it
was just like, "I'm doing it."

And that to me, today
Raven cannot imagine that.

And so I only know that it was,
like, by Him, because that is not

something that I would just do.

That's not in my- Mm â¦ like,
typical countenance and things

just to like be so certain in it.

And so I went, and then I went again
for a month the next year, and then I

went again, and I just was like, "There
is something here, and I haveâ¦"

It's not like I had all these things to
share and everything like that, but I knew

there was a purpose there to help bridge
a gap, and that's kind of what I did.

Um, by the end of it, I was helping.

I was teaching teachers, and so I was
helping teachers develop a character

education curriculum, so kind of like
what school counselors do here, and

like words of the week, and like respect
and responsibility and all that stuff.

And helping them do it in their language
and bringing up those conversations with

grade, I think it was grade six and seven.

And so I thoroughly enjoyed that.

That's not originally what I was gonna do.

Originally, I was gonna help, um, which
I did have a hand in some of it, but

I didn't-- It was not my main focus,
but they were opening a, um- a clinic,

a health clinic in the community.

And I'm talking like a community, think
of the most smallest town in Arkansas

that is like a pass-through town, and
that's kind of what this town was, but

think of the population of Little Rock.

And so it was- Oh, wow â¦ a
very populate, po- dense

po- densely populated place.

But the infrastructure and things,
like you couldn't just like

get up and go kind of a thing.

You had to likeâ¦

It was a, like when I was there,
I was there, and I did not leave.

And so, yeah, living in like- Mm-hmm
â¦ just to paint a picture, um, of where I

was at, this was not like most people's
pictures of Africa, like in the sense

of like where they're singing that
desperate song and like sponsor a child.

Mm-hmm.

That stuff happens.

Yeah.

But it was in the sense of like
there wasn't always running water.

I hand washed clothes for three
and four years, and like I

didn't have any air conditioning.

And so, and like my transportation
was my feet or a bicycle.

And so it was in the sense of like
definitely not the living standards

here, and that took, um, a lot of energy.

But I would not trade that.

Um, and again, like what I'm saying
today, Raven, and then Raven is so, like

I look back at that and sometimesâ¦

Until I had children, I, it was like,
you know how you have like a defining

moment in your life and it's like

Like, what is the t- the
time where it's like BC, AD?

Like- Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Before Africa, after Africa.

Yeah.

Like, before Mozambique,
after Mozambique, Raven.

And, like, since then it's been children.

Yeah.

But that was, like, such aâ¦

Like, sometimes I look back at my
life and I'm like, "I did that?"

But- It was just a formative moment.

It was a very formative moment.

I learned a lot, um, and Iâ¦

Yeah.

Um, so I don't even remember the
original question, but that's kind

of- That's really good because I feel
like, you know, we, you know, on this

podcast we talk about, a lot about
how do you know if God's telling you.

Oh, yeah.

I feel like you just know.

I just know, and I- Yeah â¦ it's--
I wish, sometimes I wish I had more

of those moments in my life because
it's just so certain- Peaceful?

And peaceful.

Yeah.

It's just like, "I'm doing it."

And I, yeah, I wish I had more of
those moments and, but I'm so thankful

for the moments, and I, I canâ¦

Those are always those defining
moments of, like, so certain.

'Cause Raven- Mm-hmm.

I'm gonna talk about myself
in third person for a second.

That's okay.

But, like, Raven is very much a,
like, planner, type A, like, put all,

"What's all the contingency plans?"

Everything.

And so for me to go from that to
just, "I'm doing it," is not me.

Well, did you- And I can't even try to,
like, stay with me â¦ did you plan?

Like, once you made the decision, like,
"Okay, I'm going," were you, did you then,

like, shift into planner mode, "Here's
how I'm gonna do all of these things?"

Or were you like, "I'm gonna go, and
I'll figure out how to do it as I go"?

It's more, it wasâ¦

There was some planning, obviously.

Well, yeah.

But no.

It was like, it'll get figured out,
and that is- That's definitely not you.

You two know me.

And that's not the girl I know right now.

That's not me.

Yeah.

And so I haveâ¦

Yeah.

And so I, if you were to
ask me, like, I can't say.

I mean, I can say it
was the Lord, but- Yeah.

Yeah.

I just went.

He just- Wow â¦ he knows you'll do it
if he puts the idea, like, "Okay, she's

gonna do this and not ask any questions."

Yeah.

I don't, I think that quality, and
I mean, not, not that I've seen you

make those, except for the cruise,
um, types of like, "I'm doing this."

But I've definitely heard you in talking,
I was like, once you make up your mind

to do something, you're gonna do it.

Oh, I'm very- Yeah.

Yes.

You know?

I will.

So that's really- Yeah.

That's interesting.

That's admirable.

Yeah, I like that.

I don't necessarily feel like I have that.

I don't either.

I don't think I do either, 'cause I'm a
like, "Well," like I'm a waffle on stuff

sometimes, and I need somebody to be
like, "No, we're doing this," you know?

Yeah.

Like y'all.

We're gonna do it.

Make me do it.

Uh, 'cause when we signed up for
the cruise, uh, Jill signed us up

and paid our deposit, and she's
like, "You can pay me back."

And I'm like, "Guess I'm doing it."

Except, okay, you say that and it makes
it sound like that was an anomaly.

I routinely will be like, "I got it.

You can pay me."

Yeah.

And I, I mean- 'Cause you just-
I didn't, I'm not mad about it.

No.

I mean, but I probably
would've backed out.

Really?

Had you not just gone
ahead and done it, yeah.

Y'all, I need for you to know that
at the planning meeting, Carrie

was very much like, "Let's do this.

We should totally do this."

That's- Like she was all in it.

Yes, but- Which is why I
paid for it â¦ of course.

Let's, let's go on a trip.

Two days before, "Hey, I'm not gonna go."

That's just my personality.

That is her personality.

So- And then it's like, yeah you are.

Yeah, 'cause I, we paid for this.

Yeah.

You know?

But- Yeah.

That's fair â¦ and I, and you know,
I just needed somebody to be like,

"Yes, you're going to pay me back.

I've already paid your deposit."

And once my money's in it, okay.

Listen, Carrie- I'm doing it â¦ also
became, like she realized she likes to

be the bougie pass- passenger princess.

Um, 'cause we flew down and c-
we were able to send our luggage

with the group that was driving.

Have you ever got to goâ¦

You've traveled quite a bit.

I have traveled a lot.

Have you ever got to go on a
plane and not take your luggage?

Not by choice, but yes, and
it is nice once I got over it.

They took my luggage from me, but-
When you were going to Mozambique?

When I was, from Little Rock
all the way to South Africa.

Oh.

So I'm talking two days
without my luggage.

Oh, well that's not good.

But- Well, that's, that's- For a
minute- â¦ frightening â¦ just to

like not have to worry about it, yes.

Yeah, this girl was like-
But isn't it wonderful?

She's, she had like this little tiny
envelope purse that had like her passport

or whatever in it, and she's like, "Okay."

Great.

She just tossed it in the little
thing at TSA, like the little tray,

and it went through, and she just
walked through like it was nothing.

Yeah, they did.

I had a backpack so that we had like,
you know, snacks- I made her, I made

her the meals â¦ and books and stuff.

But it was- But yeah â¦ it was great.

Like, so when you got there and, I mean,
I really didn't understand you were- You

know, I, I guess I just forgot you said,
'cause I've heard this story, but I did

not understand you were teaching teachers.

No, me neither.

So that wasâ¦

That's really cool.

'Cause I was like, what were youâ¦

I really did not know what you were
doing there, and with that- For me, my

heart in being in Mozambique, I wanted
to be very sensitive to the fact that

they had an amazing team there, and so
I didn't need to go and do anything.

Reinvent the wheel.

Yeah.

No.

It was to empower them and to help them in
an area I felt confident and knowledgeable

in, and empower them to go and do what
they were doing even better- Yeah â¦ and

well, more well-trained and stuff.

Was- And so I didn't wanna go and,
like, replace anybody or do anything.

Mm-hmm.

And so just, it was
just the, the best fit.

Was this a scary place to be?

Well- Like high crime and- No.

No, and yes.

Because like I said before, uh, in
the beginning, I was going with other

people, and at the end, I was by
myself- Mm-hmm â¦ going over there.

And I pretty much, like, when I was
living there, I always lived with someone.

Um, I would live with a roommate.

By the end, I was living with my husband,
and there was one time my roommate had

traveled to go to take a little weekend
trip, and my house got broken into.

And I remember that.

That was a very, within the whole
Mozambique being a defining moment,

within that, this was a defining
moment, and it really I think I'm

just realizing stuff right now as
I'm talking about it, which is crazy.

But it was a very defining moment
in the fact that it shook me

because I had never in that way
had my safety sha- shaken before.

And I remember being open and, like, and
by that time, I didn't know Portuguese

very, very well, and I-- This was
two months into being my first stint

by myself, um, without a teammate or
a team member or t- within a team.

And I remember looking that man in
the face, and I had no Portuguese,

and all I said was likeâ¦

I just started beating the
window, and I was like, "No,

you're not taking my stuff."

Like- Oh, you walked in on him.

I woke up to him.

Oh, I thought you weren't home.

Okay.

No, I was home.

Oh, goodness.

He was trying to break into my
home while I was in my home.

And- I think I do remember you
saying that now, but I just was--

I thought, oh, you weren't there.

Okay.

Yes.

And so I just started screaming
because I didn't know, like, whatâ¦

I, just instinct took over.

When instinct takes over and Raven
gets in fight or flight, usually

Raven goes to fight, and that's a
quality I have learned about myself.

Did it scare him?

Yeah.

He, like, it was deer in a headlight,
and he just took off running.

And- What were you saying?

So was that, likeâ¦

Okay, I think we might, I
might be putting, I might be

jumping the gun a little bit.

That's okay.

But, like, was that not a typical response
for people who were ex- experiencing

crime for them to- Well, I think-

confront and whatever?

Like, I guess my question is, is that
a very American attitude or is that

just more like a you were, you were
fight-- Some people in Mozambique

also do this and, and it's common?

'Cause I think you have mentioned
to me before that people told you

like, "Girl, what were you doing?"

Like, "You should have
just let them take that."

Right.

So I, when I, afterwards, after I
got to talk to people about it and

it happening, I have been told like,
"Why did you respond that way?"

And not so much yelling at him, but
after I had opened my door, umâ¦

So what it was is like I had a
veranda, like a front porch that was

gated, and this is not, it's not big.

It was a very small veranda, and then
I had my door to go into my house.

And so he was trying to break into
the veranda and had gotten into part

of it, and after I yelled at him, he
left, and I went out of my main door

into the veranda and was trying to
fix things 'cause I was like, "Well, I

don't want anybody else like on here."

Yeah.

And that's when I was like-- They're
like, "You should have stayed inside.

Like just let him ta-" Like
because at that point you

don't know if he has a knife.

You don't know if he has
other- Yeah â¦ anybody.

It was pitch black dark, probably
2:00 AM in the like or whatever.

Yeah.

And so in some ways it was how I responded
within the context of the situation, um-

Not so much that people do scream whenâ¦

It's during the day, which
that's had also happened.

I'd been on a, the back of a bicycle
taxi, people trying to take my purse, and

I just turned around and punched them.

And that's not like me either,
but- Is that how people do?

Like, you just have to get
aggressive and- To a degree, yeah.

Um, I- Is this a place
that has a lot of weapons?

No.

Or they just- No â¦ they
just want, they're just poor

and want- Um, and this isâ¦

I don't wanna paint a negative picture
in the sense this doesn't happen all

the time, but the need and, like, people
just take what they- Yeah â¦ want

to a degree, and- Kinda desperate.

Yeah.

And so, no, I, with people that
know, like Mozambique Raven is a very

direct and, like, feisty, fight for
I bet you'd be more so now because,

I mean, I know you've been back with
your kids, but when you are in a even

more of a protector position- Yeah

you'd be even more feisty.

Yeah.

This was pre-children, though-
Yeah â¦ so I didn't know that part.

Yeah.

I didn't know that.

But I mean, like, going back now,
'cause I know y'all- Oh, yeah â¦ y'all

always wanna go back and- Right â¦ see
family, his family and stuff.

But speaking of him.

Yes.

Let's, I wanna hear-
Yeah â¦ how you- I know.

I know people wanna hear,
like, how, how this happened.

Okay.

How did Iâ¦

So for those that don't know,
my husband is Mozambican.

Um, he is amazing.

We met because- I'll just say
I'm, I was intimidated by him.

Really?

Yes.

'Cause he's quieter.

He's very reserved.

Yes, and I was very- He's
what I call a watcher.

I'm still a little bit Yeah.

I don't know why.

He's just, he has- Did it help
when we had lunch the other day?

Yes.

I was very nervous,
I'll just tell you that.

We just had lunch together,
like what, three weeks ago?

Yeah.

And, and I have talked to him.

Yes.

But I have not sat down and eaten
with him, and I was extremely nervous.

I was very happy my lunch did
not come till we were gone.

I was very happy I didn't
have to eat in front of him.

I don't know why, I just was, and I was
just like, "Thank goodness I don't have

food in front of me," 'cause I would
probably- Yeah â¦ make a fool out of.

Carrie and I, Carrie and my girls u-
regularly go out, especially when my

husband works overnight on Saturdays.

And so after church we'll go out,
and we'll go to Carrie's Chicken,

and- Which is Wendy's â¦ which
is Wendy's, or Slim's.

So, um- Which is Carrie's Chicken.

The new- New Carrie's â¦ the
new Carrie's Chicken.

Yeah.

Um, anytime you introduce something
to my girls, I wanna make sure

the first time I introduce it,
it's just classic so it sticks.

Yeah.

And so- â¦ that one, it stuck.

It's Carrie's Chicken.

But yeah, I found him intimidating.

And so he got to, he didn't
work, and I was like, "Do youâ¦"

I didn't know if you would go.

I would.

And I'm glad, I'm glad we all went.

But I was nervous.

So, yeah.

Um, but yeah, he, he's amazing.

He, he, this is one of the qua-
I have s- a lot of qualities I

appreciate about my husband, but one
of the qualities I appreciate about

my husband is that the fact that
he can be funny in two languages.

Yes.

And that, I don't think people realize the
talent that takes to- It's so difficult.

Listen, it's difficult
to be funny, period.

But to be able to do it in a s-
in a language that is not your

primary language- In a culture
that's not your culture â¦ in a

culture that's not your culture.

Yes, 'cause you have,
there's so many- And have-

his land Yes â¦ is, isâ¦

Listen, I just feel like he's funny
enough in English that it makes me

wish that I knew Portuguese so I could
see, like, really h- I feel like he

could be a comedian in Portuguese.

Do you think he could?

He, heâ¦

Okay, so Mozambican husband is usually
the life of the party and, like, always

wants to gather people and is always- Mm.

Mm-hmm â¦ cracking up and
everything, and he does miss

that here, and- We can do that.

We'll have a party.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, that is-
Yeah â¦ that i- that is him.

I feel like i- I can
see, like, entertainer.

He is an entertainer.

Yeah.

Um, but yeah.

We met, to get back to the
original- Yeah â¦ question.

Yeah, sorry.

Um- This is what you get when
you get three buddies together.

Yes.

We met when he played guitar.

He played electric guitar.

Um- There's something
about those guitar players.

Let me tell you, he would annoy
the ever-loving everything

out of me because- So youâ¦

It was not love at first sight?

It was not love at first sight.

I ran away.

I'll tell that story.

I ran away from him.

Um, and I play piano, and the equipment
was not a lot, and so they would feed

several people through the monitor,
and the keyboard, I mean, onceâ¦

You can't hear it unless you have
some, some sound coming back.

And it was all the way across the stage,
and so I could hardly ever hear myself.

And so, and he had his own
personal monitor, and I realize

now that he was flirting with me.

But like- â¦ he would point his monitor
to me and, like, play and turn it up, and

I'm, all the time was- He's peacocking.

He was peacocking.

Yeah, he wa- he was peacocking.

And I would be like, "You've
got to turn that down.

I can't hear myself."

"I can't hear myself."

Oh.

"Can't hear myself play,
and the piano has to play."

And so, um, Iâ¦

Yeah.

And then he, the very first time
that we had some, like, more serious

conversation, like we were around
each other, but we never talked a lot.

Mm-hmm.

And one day after, um, church, we always
went and had lunch, um, at the same place,

and he came that day, and I was sitting
in the backyard of this house, and we were

having Sunday lunch, and I was sitting
on the swing, and he was sitting close.

And our pastor over the church was
sitting beside us, and he just straight

out came out and said, "Raven," which
his English was not great, my Portuguese

was not great, so definitely a language
better- barrier, and he was just

trying to communicate that he liked me.

But he said, "Raven, I want
to be in your wedding."

And I said, "What?"

"I don't really know you.

And what are you talking about?"

And mind you- I had never had a
boyfriend, never kissed a boy, never like

I just couldn't date And him saying that
meant, "I want to marry you," right?

And himâ¦

And I w- well, it took a little bit
of, like, back and forth of, like,

understanding what he was trying to
say, but yes, that's what he meant.

And I just- That is so- â¦ deer in the
headlights, like, never had a boy tell me

that they liked me, and I was like, "What?

What?"

I could not, I didn't
know what to do with that.

And so I literally turned around 180
degrees and walked into the house

and left him- â¦ sitting there.

'Cause I didn't know what to do.

What are you talking about?

And what, in that moment,
what did he think?

He is stinking persistent because-
He had heard from the Lord- He had

heard- And he was like- Just as
convicted as I was â¦ it is good.

Yeah He was very convicted, and
he was like, "I mean, it's okay."

He d- he was very forgiving, and
I was like, "Sorry, I, I didn't

know what to say to that, and
I didn't know what you meant."

I did know what he meant.

But- You did â¦ um- How did you know?

'Cause if someone said, "I
wanna be in your wedding," okay,

I'll send you an invitation.

Because we had done, I'll
send you an invitation.

I mean

that's exactly what I would've said.

Because we had, I'd, I, I
was like, what do youâ¦

And, like, somebody was sitting
right beside us and was like- Oh

affirming- Translating?

Yeah.

Not translating- Well, not, but
like- â¦ affirming what I thought

he said, and he's like, "Yeah."

He likesâ¦

And then I like, I was like, "What?

What do I do?"

Um- You run â¦ and then later, a
couple of weeks later- Did youâ¦

Wait, did you know that you
liked him at that point?

I didn't know.

Okay.

I didn't- All she knew is
he was an annoying musician.

He was a, he was, he wasn'tâ¦

It wasn't that I didn't- You're
like, "He's a cutie, but I'm

just, I'm not sure about this."

He's a cutie.

He just was not on my radar.

Well, and you're in a- But nobody
was â¦ you're in a foreign country.

You're, I'm in a foreign country.

You're like, "This isn't gonna matter."

I didn't know, like- "None
of this is gonna work out."

I'm telling you, like, I, I don't know.

Like, I just, I didn't
date through high school.

I didn't, I didn't know what it meant
to be liked by a boy and like- Okay.

Yeah, your point of reference was
nowhere â¦ I just was like, like zero.

Yeah.

And I was like, so what do you do?

What is, what does it
mean- Yeah â¦ to, likeâ¦

And then I'm gonna do it in a whole
'nother country and, like, what?

And so a couple weeks later, which
I, at this point, it's towards

the end of my commitment, this
commitment, this specific commitment.

It was a one-year commitment.

And then he wrote a song for
me, and we were sitting down,

and I got so uncomfortable I
stood up and walked away again.

And he's sitting there writing
and singing this song for me.

I need to hear this song.

I don't, I don't remember.

He- I don't remember it â¦ well,
I mean, like, from him.

He needs to play it for you.

I'll have to ask him if he remembers it.

Yeah.

He probably doesn't.

He might.

I don't know.

Anyways- I feel, I feel like
he's gonna surprise you and be

like, "Of course I remember."

Yeah.

And so- "I can't believe
you don't remember."

The whole time I'm walking
away, I can still hear him

play- He did not stop playing.

Oh.

He kept playing.

This boy is so persistent
and so- It's romantic.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And then after that, towards the end
of, I, I needed to come back to America

because I anticipated going into graduate
school at this time, and I didn't.

Um- But at that point I did, and so
I was going back and we just left it.

I was like, "I don't know if I'm
coming back at this point or not.

I have to go back to America.

I'm going back to school."

He was going to school.

He was going off to university.

I needed to go off to university.

And so I justâ¦

He was very, he was like, "I like you.

I li-" And I'm like, "I don't
know what to do with this.

I don't know if I'm coming back.

I don't even know what it means
to marry somebody from somewhere

halfway across the world."

Yeah.

"I'm just gonna have to tell you, pray
for your wife and don't mention my name.

Like-" Yeah.

"â¦ and if it's me, then it'll work out."

And so when I came back, I just
got chills saying that, but- Yeah.

Um, and after we came back, or after
I came back, we talked a couple of

times, but it kinda died out because,
like, his internet service and,

like, getting credit to have internet
just works differently there, and

he didn't have a lot of service.

And so it just kinda fizzled out
after a couple of months, and I

didn't know if I was going back.

I, I had gotten a job, um, and
gotten my first big girl job,

started working, and then finally
I was like, "Yeah, I think I'mâ¦"

This is when, rewind to what I was
talking about earlier, I went to go help

with the character education- Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm â¦ stuff, and
that's where this comes in.

And I was like, "Well, I'm going back."

And he didn'tâ¦

I don't remember if he knew I was going
back or not, but I ended up being back in

the country, and I was talking to a mutual
friend of ours, and he was like, "I think

he's waiting on you to say something."

And I'm like, "I'm waiting
on him to say something."

And so by this time we had been--
I'd been back for three months

and we had not talked at all.

So he was not an influence.

I could see how people might think,
and it's fine if they do, but, like,

how he, he might be an influence in
my decision to go back, but we had

not talked in a year, over a year.

Wow.

And, and even when I got
there, we had not talked.

And so finally I just sent him a message
and be like, "Hey, I'm in Kilimani."

And he, at this time, was-- had moved
away from Kilimani, which is his hometown,

because, um, to go to university, and then
it just kind of relit the fire in a sense.

And, um, we worked, we
would talk back and forth.

He, it was a long-distance relationship
pretty much the entire time.

Um, and it went from there basically.

So did he, when y'all talked since,
you know, did he still feel the

whole time like, "This is my person"?

Oh, absolutely.

It's crazy howâ¦

It's not, 'cause I just talked about how
once I'm convicted, I'm convicted, and

he was just conv- he was like, "I know."

It's her.

"It's her."

I was like, "Okay."

Wow.

Yeah.

How old was, how old were
both of you when you met?

Oh, goodness.

Um, I met him when I was probably 22, 23.

And so he was

He's younger than me, probably 20, 21.

Okay.

And then I think I got pregnant- And y'all
were married what, two years later maybe?

No, we got married in 2018.

Okay.

So that was, I don't know.

I can't math

very well.

It's okay.

I can't math.

Somebody figured it out.

It's morning.

It's okay.

Yeah, so we got married in 2018.

That's really cool.

Yeah.

And then, so when you dated officially,
you had said something to me about

our last, when we've talked about it.

Um, y'all had to ask permission.

Yes, okay.

And I find that very interesting.

But not from parents.

Yeah.

Not from parents.

No.

So when, when we started talking,
that was of like, once the friend

was like, "He's waiting for you,
I'm waiting for him," X, Y, Z.

Um, that was about June, and so I had
finally gone down to Maputo, which is

where he, around about where he was in
August, and we just had a conversation.

Um, and it was like, what is this?

Like a DTR for the millennials.

So we were just defining the
relationship of what is this?

What do we want?

I was like- Thank you
for- â¦ what in the world is DTR?

DTR.

Your Gen Xers over here are like, "What?"

I was like, you know what I was thinking?

That must be a Mozambican thing.

No, it's define the relationship.

Okay.

And he hadâ¦

It was so sweet 'cause he did not
have a whole lot of money, little

college kid, and he got me ice cream.

And, um, we were sitting in the
Maputo shopping center, and he was

like, "Okay," like, "I'm coming to
Quelimane on holiday in December,

and I need to know, are we gonna do
this or are we not gonna do this?"

And I'm thinking like, in this August
conversation, I said, "I don't know

because I don't know if I'm supposed to
be in Mozambique forever or what, but

I do know regardless it's an important
for me for you to know my culture."

And I, I don't know if that was a fleece
or what, but it was a like, almost

like a non-negotiable of you have to be
willing to spend time with my culture

and my family and know where I've come
from because I've been here for so long.

Um, and he thought about
it and he was like, "Okay."

Like, "Okay."

Um, and we decided, like we kept talking.

I had to go back to Quelimane which
was where I was living, and in

December, like he was gonna come down.

The week before we had this, a reorienting
of the conversation of like, "Yeah,

let's have this, let's, let's have,
let's actually have a relationship."

And there- It's interesting 'cause things
get lost in translation a little bit or

things come out weird in translation,
but they call it opening a relationship.

And because of the people
and our situation and in how,

like, we were involved, this
is not just two Mozambicans.

This is, um, an American and
a Mozambican, and this was not

something that happened all the time.

And also, you wanna, you
want to do it withâ¦

I don't know if integrity
is the right word.

Mm-hmm.

Like, you know.

And so, like, I'm coming over to serve
this church and, and that kind of a thing.

I wanna make sure things are, like,
open and transparent and, umâ¦

But it also is just sitting in front
of the pastors and saying, "Weâ¦"

Like, asking questions of, like,
"Why do you wanna get married?

Why do you wanna h- why do you think
it's important to have a relationship?"

Because at that point, it's almost
like an engagement pretty much.

Um, we're not just dating
just to, like, try things out

and, like, see if it'll work.

It's like, "No, we really think
this and are convicted that

this is what we want to do."

Um, and so we just had toâ¦

It was December 26th.

It was the day after Christmas.

Um, and so yeah, that's what we had to do.

Do they, in Mozambique where you were,
do they view marriage more transactional?

No, they don't.

Okay.

No.

I just didn't know if that was maybe
part of, like, the why, why do you wanna,

why do you see yourselves together?

Like, what-- As opposed to
just, like, "We like each other.

We, we see a future."

Um- I think- â¦ you know, that kind of a
thing â¦ it's, for me, my understanding

and the way I saw it was, do you really
understand the importance of marriage

and what- Okay â¦ the commitment is?

Okay.

And knowing, like, you guys are not
from the same place, like- Mm-hmm

really wanting to- This is gonna
be really difficult- Mm-hmm â¦ and

are you prepared for that?

Because who we were sitting with
were also a cross-cultural couple.

Oh, okay.

And so they came- So they knew.

They knew.

Okay.

Um, they knew.

They, they understood the dynamic
that that has, and so I think it

was just making sure and really
wanting to protect us in it.

Okay.

And so, yeah.

So that was December.

What-- When's your first wedding?

So that wasâ¦

It was a year and a half later
that we got married, I believe.

Okay.

And all that time was
pretty much, um, spent

apart.

But what we also don't know
is, um, that was in December.

My mom came to visit in that next January.

Oh.

And I remember, and I sh- I did
not inform her of this at all.

I didn't surprise her, but a couple
of weeks before we were, like, we

didn't get to talk on the phone a ton.

I said, "Just so you know, there's a boy."

Mm.

She's like, "Okay."

She was probably like, "Yes."

I don't, I would, I w- I should
ask her what she thought of that

if she even ever thinks about it.

Well, I mean, it's not
like you were 17 years old.

No, but the fact that- It was, it was
appropriate and was like- That's what

I'm saying is she's probably glad because
you were in your 20s and she's like- Yeah

"Okay, good."

You know?

Yeah.

That's what I would think.

I just can't imagine that being my
daughter and I'm like, first of all,

letting my daughter live halfway across
the world, but I kinda did what I wanted.

Um- You have a different relationship.

Yeah.

Very different.

And so, um, yeah.

But- Wow.

Anyways, we got married a year and a half
later, um, and had an awesome wedding.

I am so, so, so, so thankful that we
got to experience that, got to have a

Mozambican wedding, an American wedding.

And then was it- Because- â¦ six months
later you- No, it was almost a year later.

Okay.

Um, but yeah, to be with his family
and really get to, like, Iâ¦

And we've since gone back and
visited his family and everything.

And getting to, like, have the celebration
and be with his family, and his mom

has passed, but his, a long time ago,
but his dad, getting to dance with his

dad at the reception- Mm â¦ um, is
something I will never forget because

just one of the things that we have both
tried to maintain is an appreciation

for each other's culture and the
importance that one of us is sacrificing

in a different way than the other.

And so it wasn't fair to say, "Oh,
we're only gonna have a wedding in

America," or- Yeah â¦ "We're only
gonna have a wedding in Mozambique."

Mm-hmm.

Because there's no way that all
of our families could have come

to either side of the world.

And so we had that in, um, July of
2018, and we started the whole visa

process, and that took a while, and
is blessings to anybody that has

to go through that because that's,
it's difficult and complicated.

Um, but got our final approval the very,
uh, the birthday week of his birthday.

He had his interview, his, at the
US Embassy in South Africa on his

birthday in February of 2019, got our
approval and was back in America in

the last week of February of 2019.

Wow.

And then our visa, you had to get, have a
wedding and get married by a certain time,

and arrived the last week of February,
got married the first week of March.

Wow.

Mm-hmm.

And so, and yeah.

And so- And I need a picture of the
praise and worship at your wedding.

Yeah.

I have a specificâ¦

'Cause you didn't get
married in the kids' church.

What we have, this kids' church is-
Yes â¦ I have a specific memory of,

like, seeing that picture of, I don't
know, both of you just worshiping.

It wasn't, I wasn't there.

I know, I think I know which
picture you're talking about.

And I was like, "Oh, they'reâ¦"

'Cause I didn't know you.

Yeah.

They're so holy.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

So.

Yeah.

But, um- It, she really
is righteous, guys.

Like, it's- Oh, yeah.

But I mean- It's not a thing,
but- It's not something- I'm just

very down to earth and like- Yes

once people get to know me, I'm just very-
Jesus sits at the table with, with Raven.

It, but the table is in, like,
the courtyard of the church.

It's not in the sanctuary.

Just a lot of people.

The table's not in the sanctuary either.

Uh, that's what I'm saying.

Mine is in the- And there's
a kids' church there.

Mine's, mine's like in the parking lot.

Come on.

Yeah.

Um, okay, so you getâ¦

So he's, y'all been here
in America since 2019.

Yeah.

How does he feel about living here?

Is he- He has had his- 'Cause you're
not moving, or we're all moving, so.

Come on, everybody.

Um, he's loved it.

It's, it's, it's had its moments.

It's different.

Um, to see him in the, definitely in
the beginning there was, there was

funny moments, there were hard moments.

Um, but I just have a lot of respect for
someone like him that can just come and

just integrate into a culture like this.

Yeah.

Um, and be, to me- I'm gonna get a
little teary, but I'm not gonna cry.

But to- We have tissues â¦ I know.

Um, to know that, like,
that is a different type of

love that he is doing that.

Mm-hmm.

And continues to make that choice
for the sake of our family, because

we've had that conversation.

Would we ever move back?

Would we do this?

Would weâ¦

Like, there's been moments
we've gotten real close.

Um, but he's like, "No, this is, this is
for my family, and we need to be here."

And I'm like, "Okay."

I was in your neighborhood
last night and passed by.

Did they tell you?

No.

They were out riding bicycles,
and, uh, of course, Nayley'sâ¦

I saw her head when she saw the red car.

Like, I feel like that's whatâ¦

She was like, "" And, um, I
was like, "Hey," to her, and

he was just, like, lit up.

It was almost like,
"Oh, maybe he likes me."

And, um, he was like, "Hello."

And I was like, "Hi."

'Cause you're still
intimidating a little bit.

And I, I mean, I was going to my brother's
house, but I was, I was like, "Hi."

Then of course Nayley said
something funny, and I was likeâ¦

I said something funny back.

I don't even remember, but I
was, I thought that was a sweet,

like, 'cause he was on a bicycle.

Probably.

And, um, but I, I don't know
if it was a Steve bicycle or

was he on the kid's bicycle.

Who knows?

I don't know.

It looked funny.

I just remember thinking that's
the sweet, like, dad with

his two daughters out there.

He is gonna be in everything with them.

He- Yeah â¦ he is a great dad.

Yeah.

He's a great dad.

He, he's fun, and he plays
with them, and he gets themâ¦

He, he does things that I
don't do, and I probably should

do, but, like- He loves you.

Yeah.

You can tell.

And they, I mean, they love their daddy.

Oh, yeah.

You can tell.

Oh, absolutely.

We saw that at lunch when I went.

Mm-hmm.

Of course, and then we went, um, like in
your neighborhood and trick-or-treating.

And- Oh, yeah â¦ I, he had his
little â¦ This is when I was

like, "Okay, maybe he's," you
know, "I could hang around him."

Because he was like, had music, but
he was, it was in his AirPods or

whatever, and he was, like, dancing.

Yeah.

And I was like, "Okay, I like that.

I like that."

Like, he just wasn't afraid to, like-
He marches to the beat of his own drum.

He does not care.

Yeah.

And there's sometimes I was
like, "I wanna hear this music."

I wanted to hear what he was listening to.

There's sometimes I'm like- But I
was too scared to ask him â¦ I call

him Amor, and I'm like, "Amor, stop."

He's like, "Why?"

He just does not care.

He doesn't understand why he should stop.

Like, why would that bother you at all?

We need to have him on the
podcast next time with you.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm like, "Butâ¦"

And he's like, "They can
think what they want."

And I'm like, "All right."

I love it.

I'm pretty sure he dropped my
children off at school one day in

his bathrobe, and he's like, "I'm
paying them to take my children."

Like, I'm like, "All right.

You, yes."

But, like, well, he had on cl-
his pajamas underneath, but

I'm like- Yeah â¦ "Come on."

He's like, "I don't have
to go to work today.

I'm gonna dress up."

Talk about embracing the American culture.

Yes.

100%.

He does not care.

Definitely.

I mean, I'm- Yep â¦ I mean, I'm not
saying it's just here in America, but- Oh,

it's definitely not Mozambican culture.

You go to Walmart and you see.

You see it.

Oh.

So see it all.

Yeah.

Well, that's a, I mean, now I wanna
have him on so bad to this podcast.

Would he come on with you?

I don't think so.

Okay.

Really?

Would he come on by himself?

Oh, definitely not.

I'd love that too.

He might.

Just tell him what it's like.

"Hey, this is a, an official invitation."

Um.

Does he listen?

Listen.

I'm gonna make him listen to this one.

I've got the perfect thing.

Yeah.

Benildeau, I know you're
listening to this.

Um, I wanna be at your podcast.

So that's American for you're
gonna come on this podcast, so.

Noted.

So yeah.

I mean, y- you can tell him, like,
Ben's gonna be on at some point.

Yeah.

He has to be.

Yeah, yeah.

Love it.

Okay.

I mean, I have to, I have to
figure out when we can schedule it.

Today actually would've
been great 'cause he'sâ¦

I'm, I'm doing air quotes, "working
from home," 'cause he's got,

like, two meetings and they're
in other counties or something.

It doesn't make sense to drive back and
forth and all of it, so he's just working

from home until his meetings, but totally
could've done it today, but- Yeah â¦ I

didn't, I didn't know he was working from
home until, you know, 9:00 PM last night.

Okay.

. Okay.

So you get married and, you know,
obviously when you meet Raven, you know

a lot of people assume- Mm-hmm â¦ that
you have cancer, but that's not true,

and we were gonna talk about it.

Yeah.

So part of the reason of me coming back,
not the sole reason, but it was kind

of like we had gotten married, we were
transitioning, it was the end of my term,

but then towards the end of my time in
Mozambique, my hair started falling out.

And I remember people making comments
about it, and I was terrified because

I was like- What kind of comments?

Well, just, so- Sorry, that
came out real like, ugh.

I mean like- Very defensive.

Yeah.

What kind of comments were they making?

You were, that's a good friend.

What were they making?

Do I need to keep him?

Do I need to- Is he going
on a Mozambique right now?

That was my type eight coming out.

Yeah.

Um- Who do I need to take care of?

So someone in our house was
like, "Girl, I couldâ¦"

In Portuguese, but basically they,
they were like, "I can make a wig with

all this hair," that was on the floor.

Okay.

And so, um, I was losing
quite a bit of hair.

Um, you couldn't really, really tell,
um, but you could tell by the amount

of hair, and that was everywhere.

And I had long, like down
to my waist black hair.

And we had gone to the doctor
while I was over there, tried

to, which was not super helpful.

Um, their- I imagine it would be-
Their health system- â¦ a challenge.

Yeah â¦ was a challenge.

Um, and they just said it's alopecia,
and that's probably what it is.

And I don't know, I can't remember
if they checked my iron or not.

But then I came back.

So I told you we got back the end of
February, got married the first week

of March, and I remember the person
that was helping me do my hair had

done my hair just enough so that it
covered and you couldn't really tell.

But in my pictures, I can tell
my hair is very, very thin.

And within a month, after a month,
month and a half of being back,

my hair was completely gone.

And I remember sitting in the back
of our house that we lived in at the

time, and I, it was, it was time.

It was time.

Um, and I remember, like, he was so
incredibly supportive through it all.

We tried doctor's appointments, we
tried everything, and it was just,

I had, amidst of being told, "Well,
it would've helped if you would've

came in soo-" I can't come in sooner.

I was in, living in a different country.

Super helpful information.

Or it's progressed too much, or I
just wasn't responsive to the options

that was given to me, and then it
was moving out of insurance realm

and just experimental realm, and
I was like, "I'm done with this."

Like, once they started talking
about injecting things into

my scalp, I was like, "Done."

Ooh.

Um- Yeah â¦ and so I remember saying,
"Hey, Amor, like, let's just cut it."

Like, there wasn't much left.

And we were sitting in our back room,
and I'm in tears with very mixed

emotions because it took, it felt
like taking control of the situation,

'cause I was feeling out of control.

But it also was very vulnerable in the
fact that, like, I remember thinking

like, "This is not who he married."

Like- Mm.

And I know that is very surface level, but
it was a thought for me of like, I don't,

this is not, like, I look different.

I am, I am different.

Like, I'm having a hard time.

Like, I don't know what's
going on with my body.

And he was like, and he, the fact
that he was so willing to help me make

that decision and support me in that
decision, and continue to speak to me in

the sense of like, "You are beautiful.

It's not your hair."

Like, "You are beautiful."

You're, he has said that and, like, he
has continued to, like, approach me in the

very same way that when he first met me.

Mm-hmm.

And nothing has changed in that regard,
has meant so much to me because when you

walk around without hair, and especially
as a woman, it's like feeling like

all eyes are on you, feeling like I'm
not complete, feeling like I'm missing

something, feeling like I'm not beautiful.

And I don't struggle near as
much with those as I did before,

but in that moment it was like-

It's true, and I am not gonna
be able to hide this anymore.

Yeah.

And so that was my experience
with it initially all falling out.

And in the first couple of months, I tried
to wear wigs, um, and it just wasn't me.

They-- I-- First of all, if you
don't know, wigs take a lot of

work, more than just your normal
hair that grows out of your head.

And it felt like I was hiding.

It felt like I was still letting it take
control of me, and I wanted to take, take

control of it, and it being the alopecia.

And so I finally w- I, I think,
yeah, I think it was only two

or three months of wearing wigs,
and I was like, "Forget this.

I don't want it."

Um, it was a hard decision, but
it was a very empowering decision

of like, I get to choose this.

And so ever since then,
I've not really wornâ¦

I wear a wig once a year
in a play, and that's it.

So That's been my journey with it.

Um, but I- it is, like people
have thought it's cancer.

People have thought it's a cultural thing.

People have thought s- all sorts
of things, and people make a lot

of assumptions, um, unfortunately.

And that can get annoying.

It can get veryâ¦

It's grating sometimes because it's
to a point where I want people to

know that what it is and what alopecia
is, and being different's okay.

And like when children are
like, "Mommy, she doesn't have

hair," that does not bother me.

But it's when people make assumptions and
I feel like the need to explain myself,

and I don't feel like that happens.

I mean, I'm sure it does, but
my assumption is it doesn't

happen to, like, other people.

Like they're not going to ask somebody
like, "Hey, why are you in a wheelchair?

Hey, why don't you have hair?"

Kerri, why are you overweight?

No, like- Like, people don't
do that â¦ why, like, why?

Or like, why don't you have an arm?

Yeah.

Like- Like you don't ask an amputee,
like- What happened, like- Yeah.

And you don't go up to an amputee and
say, "God told me to pray for you."

Like- Like, your ar- your
legs- Yeah â¦ gonna grow back.

Yeah.

And so I've had people offer to pray, and
then once I told them it was not cancer,

it was alopecia, rescind their prayers.

And I've also had people come
from me behi- from behind

and embrace me of like- What?

â¦ in Kroger.

And then I've also had-
Like, just random strangers?

Yes.

Like people I do not know.

Some day I'm gonna do that.

And then I had- I'm gonna like
come at you from behind in Kroger.

I'll give you a- Listen.

Mm-mm.

Listen, I- You know
that's not gonna happen

let me, uh, I have had people, I'm
walking out of, um, Walmart with my

little trolley, shopping cart thing,
and cut me off to stop me and p- roll

down their window to say something.

And then I, the most recent one is I had
some very, last week, I had someone stop

me in Walmart and try to sell me a wig.

What?

Nuh-uh.

I'm not kidding.

And I was like, "No, I'm
walking around without one.

Why do youâ¦

I'm not your ideal client."

And she- What?

I don't know.

So- Does she sell wigs?

Yes Or she just had
one she wanted to sell?

And she was we- and she was wearing one,
and she's like, "Yes, they've come a

long way in the last six or seven years.

And you can't even tell-

And I'm, I'm like, "Ma'am, I
can tell you're wearing a wig

right now, and I don't want one."

Did you say that?

Listen, no, I'm- Oh â¦ not gonna be
Well, your hustle's your hustle, and

you gotta respect- â¦ the hustle.

But at the same time, like, maybe not
just stopping every bald person and

being like, "Psst, I got a wig for you."

Like, I- Yeah â¦ just in my mind's eye
I have this, like, cartoon picture of,

like, the, like, the bad guy on the- Yes.

Yeah â¦ street opening up his
trench coat with, like, watches.

Well, and you don't do that.

You don't go upâ¦

Well, I don't, and Iâ¦

No one has ever come up to me
and be like, "Hey, have you tried

such and such to lose weight?"

That's rude.

Yeah.

I don'tâ¦

And so I've had various people offer
random things, and it's not that I

don't wanna talk about it, but there's
ways to go about it, and that's not it.

There, you- So â¦ it,
it should be gentler.

Like, first of all, get to know somebody.

Yes.

Also, uh, maybe start with,
"Hey, would you be comfortable

talking about your condition?"

"Hey, can I ask you about your-" Yes.

Likeâ¦

Sure.

Would, how would you feel
if someone said that?

What?

That, like- If I can, "Can, can
I ask you a question aboutâ¦"

Yeah, that's fine.

Yeah.

'Cause then I have the option- Because
then you can say no â¦ to say yes or no.

Yeah.

Exactly.

And you're not just for- pu- forcing a
question on me that I have to answer.

But then also, dear listener,
like, if they say no after you

say, "Can I ask a question?"

Respect it.

You gotta respect the no and
be like, "Okay, have a great

day," and then off you go.

Yeah.

But it has been a journey.

Um, I have not had my hair
grow back since, umâ¦

I had little bit, like, well, I
take that back, a little bit in

pregnancy, and I got super hopeful,
and unfortunately, as soon as I had

sweet baby, it all came out again.

And so- So are there other,
like, symptoms, like, of

this, um, this alopecia?

Like, do you feel bad?

Not in relation- 'Cause you never, you
always seem to me like you're fine.

Like- Yes.

Not in relation to alopecia.

And I mean-

Jill and I have laughed about this
before, I think you and I have as well,

um, where if I could have any hair back
that was not the hair on my head, I

would want the hair in my nose back.

Yeah, you said that.

Because it is- People
don't think about that.

People don't think about that.

Mm-mm.

And, uh, hair in your ears, like- Yeah

I don't, I mean, I don't want no
bushy nose or hair in my ears,

but, like, um, since it's just-
Those hairs serve a purpose.

They serve a purpose-
Mm-hmm â¦ and you don't know.

Yeah.

And then, like, my eyelashes, my eyes
get irritated a lot easier, um, in the

end of the day 'cause the oils on my face
get in my eyes a lot quicker than- Mm-hmm

not having eyelashes.

And so- And eyebrows.

And eyebrows.

Yeah.

And so there are some weird things
that you just don't think about.

Yeah.

I wish I could have it, but I'm not upset.

Um, it's been a definitely a
moment that, yeah, it's, it'sâ¦

I'm not mad about it.

Do I hope one day and pray
that my hair comes back?

Yes.

But i- it also has been a thing
that, like, "All right, I got this."

Like, "God's got this."

Like, it has been- Well, clearly
God is still using you despite-

Oh, yeah â¦ you know- Yeah â¦ the
change in your appearance and-

Yeah â¦ and the medical journey-
Yes â¦ that has come along with it.

Yeah.

And I always laugh, I laugh
about it 'cause I have, like

I said, I have my sweet girls.

Um, one of them has a fro to no tomorrow.

She has so mu- she has more hair
than all of us combined in the house.

Granted, with me, you don't
have a lot to compete with.

But, um.

Oh.

Yeah.

So- That's Nayley right?

That's Nayley.

Yeah.

And it takes hours and
hours to do her hair.

And to see her start to understand her
hair and understand that mom doesn't

have hair, and understand, like,
she's at an age where she's noticing

differences and stuff like that,
and she knows that, like, this year

nobody else in her class had her hair.

Yeah.

And she wants it to stay fixed, and
she doesn't like her fro, and she's

like, "Mom, that's crazy hair."

And I'm like, "No, it's not crazy hair."

And getting to speak to myâ¦

It's just been a very, what would I say?

Something I want her to be rooted in
is what the standard of beauty is.

Not attached to hair.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Like- And what- â¦ your
hair is just an accessory.

It is, it doesn't-
Yeah â¦ impact your value at all.

Yeah.

And I remember her getting in
the car one day and her saying,

"Mommy, I have crazy hair."

And I turned around, 'cause a lot of
our good conversations happen in the

car when we're driving or something.

And I turned around and I, I,
I remember pulling over 'cause

I was like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa.

We're gonna address this right now."

Yeah.

"We're not gonna, like, mm-mm.

I'm not letting this stay
in her heart at all."

And I pulled over and I turned around
and I said, "Who told you that?

Where did you get that information?"

Because I remember, if you'll talk a-
like, in Genesis where, um, in the garden.

Yeah.

Yep.

And- God stops them and
said, "Who told you that?"

Yeah.

They're like, "We ran away and clothed
ourselves and like, 'cause we were naked."

And I'm likeâ¦

And I remember seeing that
and I'm like, "Who told you?"

And Go- I almostâ¦

I don't wanna read too much and put my own
impression on that- And I also read it as,

like, a broken-hearted, like, "I didn'tâ¦

No, no, no, no, I didn't want
you to understand it that way.

That's not what it is."

Like, "No."

Yeah.

Like a protection almost, and
that's how I felt in that moment.

Like, I wanted to protect her heart in
the sense that, "That is not who you are."

Right.

"You do not have cr-â¦"

Like, "No."

And also, like, identify
that a, like, a liar- Yes

told you that.

Yes.

Identify that I, I, as a parent-
Mm-hmm â¦ did not put that there,

and the Lord did not put that there.

Right.

You know?

So- So who told her?

Carrie's about, Carrie's putting
on the boxing gloves now.

She's like, "What little kid
is gonna have to get it?"

Yeah.

And so we, we talk about that, and it
has challenged me as a mom to understand

how I look at myself in the mirror and
how I comment on myself and how I let us

take pictures, and if I delete them or if
I look a cer- or, "No, I don't wantâ¦"

N- anytime she's like, "Let's
take pictures," absolutely,

let's take pictures.

Mm-hmm.

I'm not gonna run away from a picture.

Um, and I am not going to
hide myself, one, because Iâ¦

that, for me, for Raven,
but now for my children.

Right.

They need to see, like, I am a strong
woman, I am a confident woman, and

it doesn't matter how I show up
in the world, if hair, no hair.

And now that they are growing and
understanding who they are, like, I need

to be the vessel, not the only one, but
I need to be a good, solid vessel so

that they are also established in that.

Mm-hmm.

And so I never thought that having
alopecia would also impact my children,

but it has, and I'm not upset about it,
but it has caused me to dive deeper into

my identity and who I am and how I, how I
hold myself, because I want that for them.

Yeah.

So who told her?

Was it a kid, or did
she just think of that?

It was a little kid.

Okay.

I didn't know if she had that- Which
also then- Or is it like- Well, I'm

like- Okay, it's a little kid, you gotta
kinda give them- No, I mean, I was just

like, did she think of this herself
or did someone put that in her head?

Is what I was really- I think it was
a little bit of a combination of both.

Okay.

Well, 'cause she, like you said, she's
identifying that her hair doesn't

look like any of her classmates' hair.

Mm-hmm.

She, like, her skin color doesn't look
like any of her classmates' skin color.

Mm-hmm.

Um, her mo- her mom doesn't
look like any of her classmates'

moms that come pick them up.

Nope.

Like, there's, there's a lot
of, "Whoa, am I different?"

Yeah, and we've had to go over, likeâ¦

And it- we just still don't have a
solid, like, one-liner in, so to speak.

Mm-hmm.

We might have to work on that.

But, "Nayley's mom doesn't have hair."

Yeah.

It's n- thankfully, she's had
amazing teachers and, like,

that's not been a problem.

Mm-hmm.

But I, I have always been braced.

Like, that's one of the
things that once Iâ¦

Like, I remember one of my moments,
not right when I hol- hel- held her

for the first time, but in, in her
younger years, I'm like, I don'tâ¦

I was almost torn and sad that sh-
this is something that she didn't

choose, her mom not having hair.

Yeah, like, like she's
gonna have to carry it.

That she's gonna have to defend- Yeah.

Yeah, she's gonna have to carry
it and defend it, and I hate that.

Um, I hope that I never, like, I never
wanna put that on her, but also give

her the words to address it and like-
Yeah â¦ also be that, speak that life

into other people and into- Exactly, like-

her, her friends â¦ correct them, yeah.

Of like, it doesn't matter.

Why- Yeah â¦ why are you- Yeah.

You know?

So, yeah.

Well, that's a really good- Mm-hmm
â¦ like, outlook and, like, the all of this

will make her stronger, will make Noemi
stronger, and- Yeah â¦ I was looking

at both of them Wednesday night 'cause
we did a cooking thing and- Oh, man.

I was like- They were so cute.

Yes, they are so cute, and we'reâ¦

I mean, of course, Nayley, I
don't know if they argue or

anything, but, um, I mean, I- What?

I do, but I mean, like, I don't
know, like, how, what theâ¦

I mean, I know me and my brother just
went at it, you know, when we were

younger, but, but when it comes time,
Nayley is gonna take care of Noemi.

Oh, absolutely.

Mm-hmm.

And she was taking care of her,
and they're just so cute together.

Like- I love them â¦ they
just really are.

But Nayley is, uh, definitely
already a strong, likeâ¦

I could see her being like, "No,
this is the way it is," you know?

Oh, she, and she has some, and I pray
I foster those qualities well in her

'cause that's not some of my qualities.

But she will say, like, "Jill,
Miss So-and-So's teaching,

you need to be quiet."

Mm-hmm.

I'm like, "Okay, girl."

Yep.

Yeah.

Like, she is very, she will, she
will be a strong con- like, stand

on her convictions and like- Yeah.

That's a good quality.

Yeah, it is.

Yep.

Yeah.

And she'll teach her little sister.

Yep.

And she will.

She's already learning from her.

Yes.

Oh, my goodness.

Oh, gosh, yes.

Yeah.

I love it.

But yeah.

That's good.

. So we always ask, and I'm sure you
know, um, that we always ask our people

I just felt like Moses, my people.

And I don't know why I feel
like Moses saying that.

Uh, if you could go back and
watch a Bible story real time,

what would you want to watch?

I already know this answer.

I can't pick one, 'cause I
was- Oh, I thought you wereâ¦

Listen- Okay.

I actually was laying in bed last night,
'cause I know this question was coming,

and I was like, "Which one would I say?"

And I'm gonna- Mine changes,
so, like- Well, I w- sometimes

I would say creation, 'cause I
think that would be amazing- Yeah.

Yeah â¦ to be a part of.

Um, Esther is my absolute favorite book.

That's what I thought you
were gonna say, Esther.

Yeah.

And I love reading that book.

Um, I also thought about doing
the world a favor and being on the

ark and swatting the mosquitoes.

Please, girl.

Like, just doing the world a favor.

'Cause they were probably
everywhere 'cause it's all water.

So- You'd be like, clapping them out.

Well, there was only two.

Like, just take care of the two and right?

Like, it'd be fun.

It'd be good.

I feel like those are kinda-
So- â¦ demonic things that were

around the ark, just need to go.

Yeah.

I don't know.

And so I, I would take care of that.

So I guess if I had to pick
one- While you're at it, just

take care of the snakes too.

Yeah.

That- Please â¦ snake.

Anything that, like, in, like,
then the, like, what is it called?

I feel like you would know this.

Like, the ecosystem
would figure itself out.

Like, yeah.

Raven wants- It wouldn't
collapse â¦ wants to go back on the

ark and murder all the bad animals.

Listen- When you put it like that, I
mean- I, I don't know about, likeâ¦

Ben Tucker, look at
what you've done to me.

Um- Don't even, don't
even try to defend snakes.

If you are, we're cutting
this off right now.

Some snakes are all right.

I need the s- I need the poisonous ones.

No.

Right.

Or not poisonous, sorry.

There's other things- They're not
poisonous â¦ can kill the other things.

They're venomous.

The venomous ones to go away.

But the non-venomous ones,
they, they do handleâ¦

What do they kill?

Tell me.

They, they kill mice and rodents and stuff
that you don't want around your house.

So do birds.

So do hawks.

Next.

We already got that.

Okay.

Back to me.

We don't need the slithering things.

I would pick creation.

Thank you.

So it's gonna end the argument.

And that's the glimpse
into how our trio works.

The peacemaker between argument.

Creation.

Okay.

That is a good one.

That is a really good one.

It would be really neat.

Yeah.

You know, Carrie wrote
a book, and she, umâ¦

It's great.

You guys all need to, like, see
if you can find it and read it.

It's wonderful.

But she does talk about cr- like,
she describes creation in it

'cause it's, it's from the, the
point of view of a little mouse.

Yeah.

It's so cute.

But- Who didn't get eaten by a snake.

Did not get eaten by a snake

Did not.

But in the, in the book,
it, your description of

creation was really, reallyâ¦

It was cute and neat and
exciting, and I was like, "I

never thought about it like this."

And it was, it was good.

I liked it.

Thanks.

You know, I've read that book a
couple times since I wrote it,

and, um- Would you change anything?

Y'all, this is just, this is me.

I don't want you to think that I'm- You're
like- â¦ something's wrong with me.

You're like, "I don't
remember writing it."

But I don't remember writing it.

You know why?

Because you had, like, an outline,
and then you went to, like, a weekend

retreat with Tracy- And wrote it â¦ and
wrote the entire thing in a weekend.

That's why, 'cause you were just like-
Yeah â¦ "I gotta get in the zone."

And then you're just like, "Okay, out."

Yeah.

I think I do that.

Like, I'm gonna get this off my
mind, and then just forget about it.

Yeah.

That- Do you have her book?

Do you have a copy of it?

I will give you a free copy.

Thank you.

Can we take credits?

Will you autograph it?

Yes, I will.

Thank you.

You know I will.

Listen, it's- As long as you don't
share what I write in it, 'cause I'm

sure it'll be a little bit tacky.

Will it have a picture?

Oh, yeah, I'll draw you a picture.

No, but seriously, it's, it's good.

Well, thanks.

And I'm patiently- Oh my gosh â¦ not so
patiently awaiting the second installment.

Tracy, we need another weekend,
well, we're gonna sign off.

Wait, what about the superhero question?

Oh, yeah.

Let's ask that.

If you could have any- Superpower
â¦ superpower, what would you,

what would you want and why?

You can make up your own.

By the way, I'm gonna delete
that about Tracy 'cause she-

To have what I need.

I stole- Yeah.

â¦ the answer.

Yeah.

See- But you're not stealing, you're
recognizing, like, that would be-

That it is a- That would be all right.

All right â¦ to have what I need.

If I need to travel, it is there.

Yep.

If I need to have dinner h- ready
when I get home, it is already there.

Yep.

Like, to have what I need.

I mean, definitely.

Uh-huh.

Would never have thought of that before
Jill said it, but, like- All women

need that power â¦ I will feel like,
uh, I'm just gonna point this out,

'cause I got real technical about it.

I did not say to have what I need,
I said to always have enough.

So yeah, you did kinda change it.

To, like, whatever I want.

Yeah.

Whatever I'm, like- Yeah â¦ whatever
I need, whatever- Well- â¦ whatever

strikes my fancy â¦ let's not get into
this mess- I got enough â¦ of need and

want, because- I'm just saying, like,
if I'm gonna be given a superpower

and I say to have what I need, it
would just be my dang luck that, like,

they would latch onto the word need.

You don't need this, Jill.

Okay.

And- You don't need this â¦ exactly.

You don't need your nails did.

Well then, scratch that.

I do.

To always have what I want.

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

To be able- To be
able â¦ to have what I want.

There you go.

Yeah.

'Cause I don't wanna- You don't
always wanna have what you want,

'cause sometimes you realize you
don't really want what you want.

True.

So- Yeah â¦ to be able
to have what you want.

I know.

I think I'm gonna write
a book about that too.

Yeah.

A little fiction book.

Yeah.

So if I need to travel- Yeah â¦ to
go see his family, it's already there.

Yeah.

Exactly.

So on and so forth.

Yep.

Yeah.

The end.

I like it.

All right, well- Yep â¦ signing off
to- And we do wanna have you back.

I know we've talked about it, but
because of your, you know, career- The

part I didn't talk about mental health?

Well, yeah.

I think a lot of people need to hear
from, if you would like to give free

advice, um, some things that people
need to, like, help themselves.

That chapter can be a chapter
of, um, instruction- Absolutely

and, you know, that kinda thing
for, for the listener- Yeah â¦ to

be able to say, "Here are some
skills that are working for me."

But don't give away the house store.

Yeah.

Give away the house store.

But just, you know, some coping
skills- Yeah â¦ for different

things, or just, you know, life
management stuff that peopleâ¦

Everybody likes a life hack.

Because you're an interesting, diverse
woman, so definitely have you back.

And you, Benildo.

Yes.

I wanna be at your podcast.

Bye.

That was hilarious.

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