Episode 36 - Putting It on The Shelf: The Importance of Being Honest

Show Notes

Welcome to your weekly dose of The Psychedelic Psychologist. This week I have the privilege to share time with Justin. In this session we dive into the colorful draw that psychedelics can have both in a therapeutic and recreational manner. Furthermore, Justin provides us an insight into his story and the importance of listening to yourself and finding allies. 

Justin has had a long history with psychedelics and respects the work deeply; however, he shares you can always get "burned by the fire" even when your prepared and ready. His story is so important with today's fast past more, more, bigger, bigger culture being turned on. 

We share opinions on integration, prepping and ultimately being ok to put it down too. 

If you are looking for psychedelic integration support please reach out.

Healingsoulsllc.com
The Psychedelics Integration Handbook 

What is The Psychedelic Psychologist?

The Psychedelic Psychologist is a conversational-style podcast hosted by Dr. Ryan Westrum with clients and guests who use talk therapy to integrate Psychedelic experiences for healing and personal transformation. Tune in to hear people’s experiences, breakthroughs and stories of healing addiction, depression, and trauma through Psychedelics. Dr. Ryan Westrum gracefully and empathetically narrates real therapy sessions with people in their most vulnerable and transformational moments.

I invite you to take a moment to consider
a place, an environment, where you find

your safety in this guided imagery.

I'm going to gently walk you
through what looks to be.

What feels to be safety in all the ways.

Then I start by expecting and exploring
your five senses, allowing your five

senses to come online, breathing
in and breathing out, noticing the

first sensation in the physical body.

As you breathe in and breathe out,
taking as much space and time to explore

that sensation, touch intentional
grounding as you sit or lie down,

bringing a mindful presence, breathing
in and out, evoking the smells.

Potentially having placed a candle
or incense in the room, simply

breathe in and breathe out the
aromas that captivate your attention.

And again, taking all the time
in the world exploring these

sensations as they co-mingle.

Breathing in and breathing out.

Moving into the audible, the auditory,
the sounds, depending on where you are,

and never forgetting that
quietude is a sound, turning

up the volume or turning down.

Whatever feels right to you.

Breathing in and breathing out.

Again, witnessing the confluence,
the merging of sorts between these

sensations, all the while paradoxically
siloing each sensation individually.

And just like all things
psychedelic, finding safety,

finding confidence, and finding a
security within these sensations.

Now moving forward, we take one
breath in and one breath out.

I invoke the sensations and
potentially where the imagination

comes in of the tastes.

Maybe lingering tastes from
morning tea or coffee salivating

to what potentially is on for food.

Letting your mind indulge in
the flavors that you enjoy.

Breathing in and breathing
out, finding connection.

Finding security

and now pivoting to your
visual space with eyes closed.

Imagining seeing what's in this visual
space and knowing with each step deeper.

Always safe enough to open
your eyes when you feel called.

Breathing in and breathing out
with intention, I now invite you

the sixth sensation one we often
forget, but necessarily do lean

on, and that's our intention.

Simply witness the intention,
your intuition, and your

motivations for all things.

the intuitive mind.

Settling in

now, taking all the time in the world
to come back out, re-scan the body,

and throughout the day, throughout
your evening, coming back to one

sensation or letting them commingle.

And when you're ready.

No rush, no urgency.

Opening your eyes to see the visual
space and remember what is safe to you.

Hi, it's Ryan.

Welcome to your weekly dose of the
Psychedelic Psychologist, where I

invite my guests to share stories
about their psychedelic experiences.

We cover a variety of topics from
overcoming addiction and severe depression

to finding wholeness in spiritual emerge.

Today's podcast, you're going to
hear from one of my guests who

is an amazing individual, one
that I find peace, calm, and deep

serenity when I connect with them.

Justin, it's really great to see you.

Great to hear you.

How are you coming in, sir?

Hey, Ryan.

, it's good to be here.

good to see you.

Good to talk to you, and I feel.

No, I feel excitement nerves,
but overall I feel pretty good.

We were talking about that and the
meditation, this conglomeration, and

I hear you say excitement and nerves.

What do you do to pay notice
detention when you have a mixture

of emotions like this coming in, , I
just try as best as I can to be

with them without pushing them away.

And I try and let 'em take their
course, naturally because I notice that

when I have both of those, emotions
coming up, they kind of fluctuate

really quickly between I feel excited.

One second, I feel nervous the next,
and then it goes back and forth.

So I just try and sit with it.

Asbestos, I.

I love that.

Tell me a little bit about,
talking all things psychedelic.

What does the word bring to you when
I say psychedelic or the integration

that you and I have done, or the
classical therapy you and I have done?

What does that word bring
into your psyche and focus?

, just the wild ride.

The wild ride that psychedelics.

I think that's what I
think about the most and.

You say wild ride.

And I agree with you, and I think
especially in today's society, and what

I'm profoundly grateful for with our
relationship is your acknowledgement of.

Slowing down and looking at things and
not being so aggressive with psychedelics.

What is your relationship when
you think about that wild ride

with psychedelics and how are you
reconciling this new found appreciation?

Our culture is putting on it?

I think about all the good and the bad
that can come from psychedelics, you know?

as we discussed, I started pretty
early, pretty earlier than most,

and for most of my time using
them, I've never had any issues.

I've enjoyed 'em.

I wouldn't be who I am without 'em, and
they made me, just a way better person

than I think I would've turned out to be.

But you know, they do.

Where I'm at with them now, my
relationship with them now is

understanding that psychedelics
can be like playing with

fire and they can burn you.

And so I just have a deeper respect
for them as of right now, but also,

a greater caution towards them.

Can we go back just a little bit?

You talked about being
introduced to them early.

Like myself, very early.

It's almost as if we
don't know any different.

Can you tell me about your personal
narrative as it relates to that

early introduction to the world?

Psychedelics?

I assume it must have
been recreational at.

Yeah, it was actually pretty funny
cause growing up I was never like

huge into drugs and I don't know where
it came from, but I always had this.

Idea that, okay, if I'm gonna ever
try any drugs besides weed, it's

gonna be ecstasy and mushrooms.

I didn't really know anything about 'em.

They just seemed fun.

And again, I'm not sure where
that idea even came from.

But the summer of 11th grade, I
tried ecstasy for my first time

and I had a really good time.

And then the summer of my senior year,
not knowing anything about mushrooms.

I picked up and ate the mushrooms,
and again, just tried 'em out.

Took the whole eighth and had my whole
world turned upside down, good and bad.

and as crazy as that first
experience was, I knew that there

was something to be taken away from
them, and I continued to do them.

, I would say late teens, so like
18, 19 into early twenties.

Mostly recreational.

I got into the music festival scene,
so I was doing them at music festivals

a lot, and I was doing them with
my friends, just hanging out, going

for hikes, and then they're got to a
point where I started to use a more.

quote unquote doing the work and
more, you know, I'd do 'em by myself

and I wanted to explore my internal
landscape a little better, and

that's eventually where I led to.

Yeah.

You talk about doing the work, all
things psychedelic, will go back and

forth in time and we will kind of
play with the space time continuum.

What is the work you're
doing that you notice?

Psychedelics has provided you
that potentially you might

not have been able to look at.

You said you've been changed
and you appreciate who you are.

What are the things that are the
large themes that psychedelics have

kind of uncovered in your life?

I think the biggest theme for me, was,
there was no more bullshitting myself

and every area of my life that I had.

And, and, and to go back, it's, yes,
I say bullshitting yourself, but it's

also, you only know what you know and.

In some ways it was all unconscious
behaviors and patterns, but

psychedelics brought that to light
in a way that I couldn't ignore.

I couldn't deny, I couldn't,
you know, ignore the fact that

I was shitty to my mom or shitty
to this person, or that I had.

Been using manipulative behaviors
to get something in specific.

And so it was just really, a
reconciliation with all of that.

And it was at first a very tough
pill to swallow and it was very hard.

And then eventually it got to the
point where I almost seek that out.

just cuz I wasn't afraid of it anymore
and it helped me kind of grow as a person.

What were you seeking out specifically?

The idea of just uncovering things.

Yeah, uncovering things.

I was in this momentum of just,
I wanna grow, I wanna grow, I

wanna learn, I want to know more.

And at that point, that's where I was at.

Can I, invite, what does it mean?

Because I have heard that quite a
bit and I love that you're saying it

so poignantly, this idea of wanting
to grow, desiring to grow, and.

, how often did you then stop, listen,
consume, and then digest, and how often?

Especially as a youngster, I
know myself included, it was as

if this, you know, rocket ship
was gonna go away at some point.

Worried that, you know, I needed
to learn as much as I needed to

learn before some proverbial ending.

How did you, titrate those experiences
as you're learning, you know, my

big love affair with integration?

What was your intuitive way of doing?

let's see.

In the beginning there was no integration.

It was, again, all, all out of
fun, all recreational , right?

It's like one festival to the next.

You're like right next.

Yeah.

So during the summer it seemed to be what
was more traditional use of psychedelic,

so, , mainly just mushrooms and acid.

Mm-hmm.

. And then throughout the year we went
to a lot of clubs where I'd take

a lot of M D M A ecstasy, well not
really ecstasy, but just M D M A.

That was what was big at the time.

Mm-hmm.

. And again, there was no integration.

And then and

when I started doing them more for
the internal work, I don't know if.

any integrational steps like
journaling after or anything like that.

But it was more, I would
say just reflection.

Mm-hmm.

and, a little spaced out where instead of
using psychedelics every couple months,

I was using them maybe twice a year, but
definitely at least one good trip every.

Yeah.

And talking about that
cadence, the cadence allows

you to settle in, does it not?

This idea of being able to uncover
different rocks and different

pinnacle moments in those psychedelic
spaces that we might have overlooked

because we were doing it so often.

Yeah.

Speak to me.

, as you come into this new space of
doing the work, what's your personal

relationship with these medicines today?

so as of today, I don't have really have a
relationship with them the way I used to.

it is what had brought me to you
and working together two years

now seems insane, but it's cool.

And , so my relationship now is.

, there isn't a relationship.

I've taken a pause on psychedelics.

Every once in a great while, I'll
do a little microdose of mushrooms.

But other than that, I don't feel
that I'm in a position where I

wanna do a bigger dose than that.

And I don't know if I'll, if
I'll ever be back to that.

As I was saying earlier,
Fire could keep you warm.

It could also burn you.

And I got burnt two years ago
and you know what led me to you?

And so I just think right now is not
the time to be doing psychedelics.

What's the emotion coming up
as you're saying this out loud

as I see you and witness you?

So, beautifully vulnerable.

I, for the most part, I feel pretty good.

I feel like I have, since two
years ago, done a lot of work to

integrate what had happened to me.

I think if there's any
emotion it might be.

a smidge of underlying shame.

Mm-hmm., and I just, I need to step in
because I find you remarkably courageous.

The moment I met you.

You do do the work.

You are doing the work, and there's
no invisible loyalty in this world,

and I, I wanna make it predominantly
evident to have to do something or

intake something to be doing the work.

The man I know.

Is courageous, lifting your
boulders, moving and honoring.

Sometimes it's okay to put things down
and still honor the subject matter, and

that's what I love about the work you and
I are doing, be it through breath work or

different guided imageries or dream work.

You've always stepped up to look at your.

Yeah.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

It doesn't mean because we don't
do it that we're not Right.

Yeah.

Noble or capable enough.

How are you reconciling that this
idea that this loyalty, especially

in the year 2022, when everything
is like going off the chain.

Not doing psychedelics is
a different kind of work.

And say more about that.

It is . In some ways, I feel like harder,
and I don't, I've never taken this long

of a pause or break from psychedelics.

You know that first time I did ecstasy
or mushrooms, so they're, you know,

what I've realized in the past two
years is that when life starts to hit

this stale moment or I feel like I'm
not evolving or progressing or not

really sure what direction to head
in or what to do, I think I would

turn to psychedelics and it would.

And I always refer to psychedelics almost
as like cheat codes in the game of life.

But yeah, not using them or leaning
on them as a crutch nowadays,

it's really forced me to look at
myself in a whole new perspective

and kind of reorganize how I view.

That's appreciative.

That's , I can't say anything else
other than a breath of fresh air.

The Cheat Code of life.

Sometimes it is an overwhelming
amount of information, and I believe

at one point in the Spirit Molecule
written by Rick Straussman, he says

that the Buddhist monks would say
it's like the chicken or the egg.

Are we gonna do psychedelics to
unlock things or are we going to

do the work through the meditation?

And it leads to the conversation
of spiritual bypassing, right?

Could psychedelics be a variation
or version of spiritual bypass?

. Yeah, absolutely.

Mm-hmm.

, what do you mean when you say absolutely?

What do you resonate with?

When I say that?

I feel like people don't ever wanna
admit, but there is a fun component to

psychedelics and , like I've had say more.

That so true.

I've had a blast on them.

As hard as they have been, they have
also, , some of my most outrageous

experiences, just having fun.

And that's why, I don't
knock them entirely.

I still have great appreciation for them.

I just think that the direction
everything is heading in, as someone

who, when I got burnt, I had all my
eyes dotted, all my ts crossed, I.

Found somebody who, was a
therapist of many years.

They did psychedelic assisted
psychotherapy on the underground,

and this was the safest I've ever
could have done psychedelics.

And although nothing bad happened
during my session, after the

session was when I got burnt.

And so just, I, I just feel that
there needs to be, . We just need

to have greater respect around him
and just a higher level of caution.

Yeah.

I double down on that endorsement.

And I'm profoundly grateful you and
I are doing the active work after,

because right, you hear People lining
up for mushrooms in British Columbia

or Oregon or going down to Mexico.

And I personally with a public service
announcement, I'm meeting people I've

never met before, coming back completely
shattered after ayahuasca experiences.

And that was their first
psychedelic experience.

And.

It's, it's tragic and what
you're saying isn't, being

disrespectful to the medicine.

I really love the idea of what you
said because they are fun and I think

our mainstream media is minimizing.

The magnitude of the
recreational aspect of them.

And they're trying to go, oh,
this needs to be therapeutic.

But lo and behold, they're also
then making tins with psilocybin.

They're, you know, doing all these
microdosing and people don't know

the definition of microdosing.

Some of 'em are doing grams.

And so I think there's a large aspect
of us trying to blanket something

that feels very, like the sixties.

Right.

And we're, we don't wanna acknowledge
the fact that hey, there is gonna be

some recreational use still about, I
mean, you even hear it with ketamine,

lozenger with teenagers and K holes.

It's pretty fucking intense.

Yeah.

I just heard, an advertisement on a
podcast that if you get approved through,

I guess a particular insurance or
something that they'll mail you Ketamine,

lozenger, which I was like, what the fuck?

That sounds.

. Yeah.

And then on top of it, one of the
things I had, I was dreaming about

one night is this idea of the mental
instability and vulnerability of

our homeless population and the
ease in access now becoming illegal.

And if it's put in the hands of people
that don't have the structure, as

you said, or the safety or even the
mental framework to be exploring these,

be it a teenager or someone working
just with some of their own mental

health, it's, it's a breath of fresh
air of what you're talking about.

Justin, I think it's necessary,
and it's not to sound prudent or

oh, like we're the gatekeepers by
fuck's sake, we're just saying.

that even when you think
everything's good, you never know.

And, there could just always be
more precautions put into place.

And, you know, again, I, I did
it for years, never had any

issues, always had a good time.

And the safest time I
did do it, I got burnt.

And, yeah, so just.

In retrospect with your permission, what
would you say now, would be different?

You talk about the caution.

It, would it just be accepting what
happened or is it deeper than that?

Is there some fundamental things
that you would offer somebody

that is considering doing this?

Hmm, that's a good question.,

all I could speak on is my personal
experience and you know, with doing

it on the underground and you see,
you know, a lot of these Brooklyn

shamans or like you said , going up to
Washington or Oregon and there's just.

and I never used to feel like, you know,
see watching this go through like F D A,

all the studies that they're doing Now,
in my head, I always had mixed views

about it, but after going through what
I went through, you know, if there is a

fallout, like what I experienced, . If
this is legal and sanctioned, then

there's a way to help that person where
somebody on the underground may not be

able to do it, because then they're at
liability and they're at fault and yeah.

Yeah.

That's intense.

You're.

This idea of kind of having the
bumpers all around and then doubling

down on the bumpers, and that's, you
know, seen with different places like

harm reduction zendo, for example.

Being at festivals and having the care
tents now is a beautiful experience.

, tell me a little more about your
personal story of what you're going to

take, what you're going to walk with.

What, what is your active process
of living in the world today?

What are you diving into

I'm trying to rely more on.

We said it in a previous therapy
session, but, chopping the

wood and carrying the water.

And you're smiling.

What, what are you laughing about when you
say chopping the wood, carrying the water.

Just learning to appreciate the
mundane shit that we take for granted.

And, actually just watching
the Studs documentary.

He said the three aspects of life
that are undeniable are pain,

uncertainty, and constant work.

And I feel like that relates to
chopping the wood, carrying the water,

and just getting used to, maybe.

Yeah, that life without drugs, that's
a fucking remarkable statement.

And by the way, I doubled
down on, again, endorsing that

documentary with Jonah Hill.

It's a beautiful relationship of how
psychiatry and therapy can be with the

appropriate emotional intelligence, but
there is chopping the wood, carrying

the water and the mundane shit right.

Going back to psychedelics.

I think that's why a lot of people do
psychedelics is because lo and behold,

they're a little burned out of the mundane
shit and they wanna start that fire.

And as you said, it could burn you.

And walking with the mundane
is a really magical question.

What does it look like to walk in
the mundane and yet feel the magic?

I'm at a point where I'm realizing, or at
least just where I'm at, is I feel like

everything is leading towards gratitude.

And to me, as of right now,
that seems to be like the, the

cheat code in life is gratitude.

Some form of a gratitude practice, whether
it's a journal or ritual of sorts, but.

. So that's how I think I'm learning
to deal with the mundane is through

implementing a strong gratitude
practice into my life right now.

Mm-hmm.

very enlightening and not forgetting
that there's work to be done around the

corner and that things are challenging.

Life is difficult.

Yeah.

Meeting the unexpected.

Walk with me as you are doing.

in the gentleness.

What are you personally doing
to be gentle with yourself?

You've shared so much personal stories
about having wonderful experiences

with psychedelics and putting
these psychedelics on the shelf.

Now, what are you personally
doing to walk with gentleness?

I just always try to pay attention
to kind of like where my thoughts

are at, and the moment I start to
get hard on myself, you know, I just.

Watch that thought for what it is.

And I think that's my biggest thing to
work on, being gentle with myself, is

to just be aware of my thoughts and not
to take them so personally, catch myself

if I'm being hard on myself and know
when to like pull the cord on that and

that doesn't give me an out in life.

To not work hard or do the work
that's needed, but there's no need

to sit here and pick myself apart.

And I think a big part of that too
is, going back to a lot of moments

in my life of shame, fear, you know,
those younger moments when I may

not have felt adequate enough to
deal with whatever I was feeling.

to constantly check back on those
moments as well and just show

that version of myself some love.

So again, I think it all circles back
to this self-love practice gratitude

practice, which sounds corny, cheesy,
not what a lot of people wanna do,

but, I think it has a huge value to it.

Well, you bring up ritual too,
and this idea that it needs to be

consistently ritualized in your life.

So if it's a moment of gratitude,
or as you said, indulgent a

journal or self-love, there's a
purpose of people often ignore

it, and I see that quite often.

If you can't love yourself, how
are you going to even be able to

know that you can do the work?

Let me ask in, a real existential
question, what, what are you doing

to ritualize your life today?

What are the acts of ritual
that you're being with today?

So it sounds weird to say as ritual,
but, running has completely taken

over my life in the past year and I'm
in the process of like, whether it's

a stress fracture, a shin sweats.

I've been dealing with it for months,
but I'm in the process of getting back.

But I think.

Exercise is like a big part.

And now that school's finished, I
want to get back into some writing.

I want to do some more writing, but I'd
say those are the big things right now.

And because I witnessed you in so much
transformations, Justin, if you were

able to speak to that younger self
that was in 10th, 11th grade, what

would today's Justin be saying to.

I think number one would be, don't
worry so much cuz I was, that was the

name of the game back then for me.

the second thing would be
to trust in the process and.

. The third would be just to
know that it's all okay.

It's all good.

Whatever you've done, it's good.

There's nothing to be ashamed about.

Said about to beat yourself up over,
you know, it's like we're all learning.

No one's got it figured out
and it's like every year you

look back on the year before.

. And at that time you feel
like, oh, I, I think I got it.

Everything feels pretty good.

I'm pretty on top of the ball.

And then a year later that you're
looking on yourself and you're

like, what a fucking asshole.

Didn't have nothing figured
out, didn't have this going on.

, I thought you had it figured out.

And so we're just, you know, it's
constantly learning, constantly evolving.

but it's all okay in the end.

It's all okay.

It is all okay.

And what I am profoundly grateful
for as a witness to you and support

is knowing you can also reach
out and have your allies right.

Because it does get scary.

Yeah.

And what I've witnessed in you
is this idea of never stopping.

to check in, to go, okay, I
wanna look at this, be it through

breath work or talk therapy, or
just processing a subject matter.

And I've always been deeply
appreciative of you for that.

This idea of like, let's look at it.

Let's not be afraid to
kind of chew on it a bit.

Right?

Yeah, absolutely.

And again, to go back to putting
psychedelics on the shelf, you know, like

at the start of us talking, I was so bent
outta shape cause I was, I thought it'd

be during psychedelics till the day that,
and, it ate me alive for a while to.

I wouldn't temporarily have to
put psychedelics on the shelves.

and so

just.

, being able to look at these
other avenues to work with myself

and work with other people.

And it doesn't have to be all the eggs
in just one basket is, is a, you know,

there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

that came from the situation.

Most definitely.

And I'm super, super appreciative of that.

And that's a huge reminder for
everybody is this idea is if we're

super singularly focused on one
subject matter, be it psychedelics or.

, you know, whatever you, it
could be quite limiting.

And what I love about what you
just said is we're gonna, I, okay.

and we're not guaranteed to
have the Huxley L s D injection.

And nor would I think I want it, I
think I would wanna be as clearheaded

as I potentially, possibly could
be to transition into the mystery.

So I think it's an active practice
of witnessing what, what is our

body, what is our innate spirit?