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Host Scott Lollar is a 35-year veteran of the painting industry and founder of Consulting4Contractors. The 'Success Beyond The Brush' Podcast serves as a touchpoint to painting contractors who have hustled, sacrificed, and worked hard to get their business to where it is today. Now, you need the guidance, expertise, experience, and team to make it into the multi-million-dollar company of your dreams. You'll hear stories and interviews from "Brothers of the Brush" and "Sisters of the Sprayer" who have been where you are and are charting a new course for their company's success. Listen in and go beyond $1,000,000!
SBTB Ep. 22 | Stop Managing on Feelings: How to Actually Measure Your Team
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[00:00:00]
C4C Special Offering
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Hey, before we get started with this episode, we actually wanted to let you know about something that Consulting4Contractors is really excited to be offering. If you've ever wondered what it would actually be like to get coaching from C4C, there's a way to experience it without jumping all the way in.
They're offering something called a Taste Of Coaching. This is where you can get real exposure to how they think, how they diagnose problems, and how they help contractors just like you grow their businesses. It's not a course, this is actual coaching. We're going to tell you more about this later in the episode, but you can check it out anytime using the link in the show notes or the video description.
Why Expectations Slip
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Rick: The biggest mistake we make and I've made over the years, is I set the expectation and then when the expectation's not being made, I let it slide, right? First time," Oh, I'm going to let it slide. "Second time you know, if it happens again, I'm going to say [00:01:00] something and then it'll go, be a while and it happens again and you don't.
Rick: And if we as leaders and managers in our companies, if we're going to set an expectation, the most critical thing after that is we have got to enforce and follow up when appropriate, right? Because if we say these are what, these are things we expect and you allow somebody to keep coming to work late without calling in or letting you know, then you're destroying the culture of your company, of your organization.
Welcome to Success Beyond The Brush
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Welcome back to Success Beyond the Brush, the podcast where we help contractors grow beyond the day-to-day grind and build better businesses. In today's episode, Scott Lollar's going to be sitting down with Rick Holtz again to talk about one of the most overlooked areas of leadership, and that's actually how to manage your management team.
They break down how to move beyond gut feelings and set clear expectations and hold your team accountable in a way that actually drives results. Let's jump into this episode [00:02:00] with Scott and Rick.
Scott: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Success Beyond the Brush. My name is Scott Lollar founder of Consulting4Contractors, and today we have Rick Holtz with us again.
Scott: Rick is a C4C coach and the owner of Holtz & Son Painting Company in Richmond, Virginia. Rick, thanks for being again with us today.
Rick: Yeah, thank you, Scott. Love being on here with you.
Scott: Yeah. What I've, we've gotten so much great feedback on some of our conversations because you really speak to the high level leader that a lot of people aspire to be. And I know that you're very humble about the steps it took to get you there and you, and you strive every day to get better. But today I want to talk a little bit about how to better manage our team.
Scott: I'm not talking so much about field, I'm really talking about management level. So this could be salespeople, they could be CFOs or accounting, they could be sales p- project managers. But what I've been hearing, Rick, a lot is that people [00:03:00] speak in emotional terms about their team. I don't feel like they're doing great, or I think we could do better.
Scott: Or, you know, there's not really this measurement of how do we know that we're hitting on all cylinders? What I want to discuss today is how do we manage well? And how do we set expectations clear and concise objectives? How do we measure them? How do we follow up? I also want to talk about how do we ensure everyone has a chance to tell us the things that maybe they're afraid to tell us, but we need to hear.
Scott: How's that sound?
Rick: Yeah, it sounds great. It's right up my alley. I love this kind of stuff.
Scott: Yeah, beautiful.
Metrics And Field Feedback
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Scott: So I think we've talked a lot in the past and you can look back at some of our podcasts about setting goals and projections. And so we're going to assume that that's already done. But how do we how do you keep your finger on the pulse of your team and, you know, as far as are they doing their role well?
Scott: Are they hitting their targets? How do you even come up [00:04:00] with what that looks like and how do you do that?
Rick: Well, I mean, I think a lot of it is metrics. You know, if you, if they're managers or if they're salespeople, you know, you could look at revenue sold, you could look at revenue produced, you could look at gross profit that they're earning on projects. Those are some numerical things, right? But the other thing that I like to do is I like to talk to the people that they manage. I want to go out to the crew leaders out in the field. How's it going? You know, and they're going to tell you how the folks that are managing them are doing. I think that's a great look kind of behind the curtain. And it's not because you're trying to get them to gossip, so to speak. But I mean, if you want to know how your company services a client, what better way to do that than to talk to a client?
Rick: Like, we can think that we're doing a great job all we want. And, you know, you can see all these numbers are good and that sort of thing, but if the crews aren't [00:05:00] feeling aren't feeling like they're a priority, that's a problem. You know, you've got to have balance with all of it. It's not one or the other.
Rick: You know, you could have a crew that says, "Oh, the this project manager's doing a bang up job. They're doing a great job. They support me. You know, they're there to help me with the challenges I'm facing." But then the gross profit on these jobs are awful. And maybe your customer views aren't great and that sort of thing.
Rick: So are they really doing a good job? So it's really, Scott, I think, looking at a array of things, a big picture kind of array of things.
Scott: So to that example you're keeping your finger on the pulse of, in this case, the project manager by asking the people that they supervise are you give, are you asking direct questions like, "How's Joe doing?" Or are you asking general questions just to see if there's anything there?
Rick: I think more general questions like it could be like, "Hey, Oscar, how's it going? It's pretty well, you know? How are you feeling with this project? Do you feel [00:06:00] like you're getting the support you need? Do you have the details that you feel like you need? You got to the job, was it a smooth transition to get going or were there a lot of questions and a lot of confusion and that sort of thing, right?
Rick: If there's not clarity, then that's a management issue when you're starting a project right away. So yeah, it's those types of questions. I never have to talk about a person's name, so to speak, right?
Scott: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Investigate Before Judging
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Scott: Now, using this example, how do you discern if this is just a person that is not taking personal accountability for the fact that they should have done this, that, and the other themselves, and they're just blaming someone else? Or, you know, is there ever a time where you would just say, "Hey, Oscar, is there anything you could have done better?" Or, "Hey, what would you do differently if you had a chance to do this again?" Or, you know, is there going to be moments where you use that as a teaching moment for the person because they're just really complaining and it's up to, it's on them?
Rick: Yes. [00:07:00] Absolutely. Because if you know the people that work for you, you know the ones that are the complainers, you know the ones that are the overachievers, you know the ones that are just solid workhorses that you know you can depend on day in and day out. So what I would do is if that particular project manager was, say, Bill, I'd go to another crew leader that has Bill as their project manager and just see if they're experiencing the same thing.
Rick: Because it's all about being curious. You know, you can't just ... It can't be one and done, you know? You can't just say, "Oh, well, Oscar said you weren't doing a good job, so Bill, you must not be doing a good job, a good job. We need to sit down and have a conversation." Right? But it gives you at least moment to pause and say, "Maybe I need to do a little bit more investigation."
Scott: Yeah, exactly. And this can also we talk a fair amount about employee model companies, but we know there's a lot of people out there using subs. And this works the same for a subcontractor crew where they need the same kind of information support and feedback from our management team.
Scott: So [00:08:00] you can ask them the same questions. It doesn't matter if they're employer or sub.
Rick: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, with a lot of our clients with, that, that are involved with C4C, you know, they still have project managers that are going out and handing the job off, so to speak, to these subcontractors. It's really not different, really. You know, the only difference is the payroll part of it.
Rick: It's the delivery and the execution and all that is the same whether you're a subcontractor model or an employee model.
Scott: Yeah. So staying with this example, if you identify that there is a challenge, you know, then what do you do? You go back to the project manager or whomever and how do you engage them with the, you know, improvement if there needs to be, or how do you even get into it with them?
Hard Conversations With Care
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Rick: Well, I think the first thing you do is you have a, a meeting with them and, you know, it could be you and a- another person if there's another layer of management between you and them. Like in my instance, you know, there's another level of management between me and the project managers. So I would coach that level [00:09:00] up and maybe be in the meeting so, for a few times until they get comfortable with that.
Rick: But I think the hard thing for people in general and, the challenge for me is it's hard to have direct conversation with people when you feel like you're telling them something they're not going to like,
Rick: right?
Scott: Yeah.
Rick: And that's the hard part and the part that we all need to get over. So what we do instead of having these conversations with folks is, "Hey, you know, I've, I've noticed this is going on.
Rick: How's it going? Can you tell me a little bit about what I'm seeing or what I'm hearing?" And just try to be honest with them because one of the things I've done is I've asked my team permission, " Can I, are you okay with me being honest with you about pointing out areas where you could be better?"
Rick: And they're like yeah." Because that's what we all want. I mean, the sting of hearing something negative goes away pretty quickly, but what's the [00:10:00] alternative to that is being ignored
Scott: Yeah.
Rick: and nobody likes being ignored.
Scott: Yeah. So that's a great point. And I use that as well, and I use this in sales, which I call this a pre-engineered agreement. So, and you can also say bringing the feature to the present, which is another sales tool. But in this case, in management, I love it because what you're saying is I have asked them already, " Are you okay if I tell you hard things we've, you know, when they're hard?"
Scott: Or, "What happens when I need to have a har- hard conversation? What's the best way to approach you? " I like to have that conversation when we don't need to have that hard conversation because we're happy and everything's good. You're just preconditioning to saying, "Hey, when something, it needs to be said that's hard, w- how should we do that together?"
Scott: And I think that it's okay in my world that's a different approach with different people. You might have person A who you need to have a different approach because they might just have some weaknesses, like they might take [00:11:00] things personally. And so if you're not careful, and there might be another
Scott: Yeah, and there might be another ... And you're a pretty direct person, so maybe if I was managing Rick, Rick would prefer me just to go ahead and let him have it. Don't, please, don't use five sentences to say one sentence to me. Just go ahead and tell me. I'd like to hear it and I'll be okay, right?
Scott: So there's, it's
Rick: I'm not going to be okay. I'm going to probably be all broken up for the short term, but then I'm going to come around and think about it a little bit and I'm going to say, "You know what? That person's trying to help me be better at my job and better, maybe even a better person or better in my relationships with employees, which also could help me in relationships in my life."
Rick: So this person actually has my well being as a priority instead of somebody that, that really just wants to kick me to the curb and keep me down.
Scott: Yeah. But that's because you have learned that behavior or that thought process. That
Rick: Absolu- Yes, it's not second nature. [00:12:00] That's not second nature at all.
Scott: Yeah. So I think it can be really helpful to just say some of these things in a moment like, "I really want you to be better, Rick, and so I'm going to, I need to talk to you about something that is, is hard for me to say to you, but it's because I really believe there's a lot in you and there's a long-term fit here."
Scott: You know, I mean, to, not to soften it, I don't want to, I don't want to sugarcoat it, I want to kind of create a, an environment of safety, if you will, if that's the right word, to say, "Hey, this is going to be a hard conversation, and it's because I am invested in you, and if I didn't think you were worth it, I wouldn't even bother, and I'd
Rick: Yeah. Yeah. Or the other approach that I like now that I've just finally kind of come to the realization of is, you know, this is something that I'm perceiving as negative that you're doing. I'm seeing this or I'm hearing this about you and I'm just kind of curious to know more about it and kind of [00:13:00] get your opinion on it.
Rick: You know, I'm not coming to the meeting with a judgment in hand, right? I'm more about fact finding. Like, this is sort of what I'm hearing. I haven't made up my mind either way on whether it's true or not, but I want you to tell me why I would be seeing or hearing this about you.
Rick: Because then they're far less defensive.
Rick: If you say, you know, "I want to meet with you because I heard you're doing a, you know, you're doing a crappy job, I'm passing judgment, you're doing a poor job, right?
Scott: Great.
Rick: I've noticed or I've heard that you're, you know, this isn't, hasn't been going well or that hasn't been going well. Could you explain that to me, maybe give me your point of view or, or why would I be hearing this?
Rick: You know, and let them kind of explain that before you pass judgment on it because then it just doesn't feel as biting. It's more about we're working together to find out what's going on because something's not right.
Emotional Intelligence Under Stress
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Scott: I'm doing so much reading on emotional intelligence. This is not new, but I think that's one of the things I've [00:14:00] been hearing is missing is the soft skills. So this idea of even having a moment to coach our management, like, you know, yes, I did say this to that person, and we could maybe help them say, "But do you understand how that statement can be, was interpreted?"
Rick: Yeah, it can be taken many different
Rick: ways.
Scott: So this idea of, I understand that you didn't mean to be so harsh or to be so whatever, but can you see how that statement or that, the way you delivered that affected your subordinate? And so this idea of having a moment to train them to say, "Hey, what you said or did wasn't in- innately wrong, but you could be better because you're the manager, right?
Scott: So we want to, you know, you could do ... You could've done that differently and take them through that. " And that's just coaching and it's
Rick: Yeah. As a, you know, as a manager and a leader, we're held to higher standards. We are, and um, that means that we need to think about things. We can't react [00:15:00] off the cuff as often, you know? We really need to think about things before we say them, and I think that's the biggest mistake I make, for sure, is that things come out of my mouth before I'm ready for them to.
Scott: Yeah, for sure. And I think there's so much we can do here. One of the things I think about and really it's the seven habits of highly effective people who seek to understand. I don't know if this is somebody else's, if I stole this or if this is mine, but I have this idea of believe the best in people.
Scott: Like, okay, Rick just said that to me, but I actually just start with the baseline of I believe the best about Rick. And so I'm just going to s- give him a moment of saying, "Hey, that felt terrible, but because I believe the best about Rick or in Rick, and I think he cares about me, it changes the way I can react to that moment."
Scott: It still might have a moment of feeling, you know, emotional or frustrating or whatever, but just [00:16:00] the fact that my baseline is, "Hey, foundationally, I believe the best in Rick, and I believe the best about him."
Rick: And I think that's the thing as I get older, you think a lot of people as they get older, they get cynical, but I'm kind of the opposite. I feel like we as humans aren't trying to make life harder. We're not trying to do bad things. We are trying to be the best. Most people are. And when they aren't behaving that way, there's usually an underlying reason.
Rick: So instead of passing judgment so fast and engaging in a negative confrontation or letting the energy build in a negative way, be the calm one, be the calm one to say, This isn't like you, because I know you're a good person at heart, and my intuition says that. So what's going on? You know?
Scott: Yeah.
Rick: Give people a break, because I would want a break.
Rick: Gosh knows, over the years, a highly emotional person, you know, running a business, being under the [00:17:00] pressure of running a business, I think everybody can relate to that. It's not easy, it's very challenging, and it takes a lot of self-awareness, and when things are flying at you, you don't, that's the first thing that goes out the window is self-awareness, you know?
Scott: Yeah. And when anyone is stressed out at any position, there, there's just less, you know, capacity, right? It, your nerves are right on on edge and sometimes just one little, one more comment or one more silly request or one more frustrating piece of feedback is enough just to go, okay, you just kind of go psh, you know, a little, it's like a valve, you know, a little steam comes out.
Scott: Well, you create da- you cause damage, so you didn't control that emotion, but, you know, that's the capacity where you have to watch that and manage your state, I think, because as managers, we have a lot of power and we, really can't affect people downline.
Rick: Yeah and the first thing I do when I notice that in somebody, and you can get a vibe on [00:18:00] people's energy, just kind of interacting with them, it doesn't have to be a single occurrence or multiple occurrences or something like that, but when you sense that energy, just ask them how you can help. "Hey, is there something I can do to help?
Rick: You seem like you got a lot on your plate." And sometimes that's all they need because that's the other thing, and I know I was not good at it, I'm not a good person or haven't been a good person at asking for help. And I think that's where we get into a lot of these situations where we need to have these tough conversations is when people feel like they have so much on their plate so many things coming at them and they don't know how to ask for help, how to relieve that pressure that you're talking about, right?
Scott: Yeah. Yeah, I agree.
Set Expectations Then Enforce
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Scott: And then I wanted to address one more thing that you said that I loved and circling back to something you talked about on a previous episode, is that you are having a m- a little bit of time, personally, onboarding new [00:19:00] employees in groups, not just one off, but you conveying the values of the company, talking about their responsibility and that you are counting on them, that you, the company, the team is counting on them. I think those are expectations. You're laying day one or soon, close to day one, whenever you do this, this isn't just a place that you come and spend eight hours.
Scott: There's expectations. We're all counting on you. Even if you're sweeping floors, we are counting on you to sweep the floor, we're counting on you to do it on time or be here or whatever. And so this expectation, I think, is a great thing to do because then down, the road, we're going to to- need to remind them possibly of this conversation that we had that says, "Hey, remember when we told you we were counting on you?
Scott: Let's talk a little bit about what you, what's going on right now and how it doesn't feel like we can count on you right now."
Rick: Yeah. The biggest mistake we make and I've made over the years, is I set the expectation and then [00:20:00] when the expectation's not being made, I let it slide, right? First time," Oh, I'm going to let it slide. "Second time you know, if it happens again, I'm going to say something and then it'll go, be a while and it happens again and you don't.
Rick: And if we as leaders and managers in our companies, if we're going to set an expectation, the most critical thing after that is we have got to enforce and follow up when appropriate, right? Because if we say these are what, these are things we expect and you allow somebody to keep coming to work late without calling in or letting you know, then you're destroying the culture of your company, of your organization.
C4C's "A Taste Of Coaching"
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Well, we are about halfway through our episode with Scott and Rick today. If you've been listening to Success Beyond the Brush and thinking to yourself, "I know what to do. I just don't know how to actually implement it, " then this is for you. Right now, Consulting4Contractors is offering a Taste Of Coaching.
You can reserve your spot with either Scott [00:21:00] or Rick. This is not a course, this is real coaching. It's going to start with a focused business discovery process where your coach understands exactly where you are, where you want to go, and what's currently holding you back. From there, Scott and Rick are going to build a personalized KPI scorecard and roadmap for your business, so you're not guessing anymore.
You know exactly what numbers matter and what actions to take next. You'll also get one-on-one coaching sessions over Zoom, plus access to a live mastermind with other contractors, basically giving you a built-in advisory board. It's offered at a nearly 50% discounted rate compared to their premium coaching program, and spots are limited.
So you can go through the experience, get real value out of this, and then decide if you want to continue. There's no contracts and no pressure. Check the link in the show notes or video description to grab your spot today. Let's jump back in to the rest of this episode [00:22:00] with Rick and Scott.
Kill Gossip With Direct Talks
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Scott: The other thing that I advise people to do is when they have two people that are not connecting, not f- you know, they're s- they're just not on the same wavelength or
Rick: Yeah, not
Scott: here, y- yeah, or you hear something from one and the other one says, "I don't think that's the way it happened."
Scott: I'm a proponent of just pretty quickly getting them into the same room and just being, letting them talk about it and me facilitating that conversation because one thing I know is that s- people would often not say the same thing to the person's face.
Scott: And
Rick: Oh, absolutely.
Scott: yeah, so, so that's really, like, this gossip concept, like, "Well, since you're asking Rick, you know, I think so and so is really not doing a good job." You're like, "Okay, well, you know what? Why don't you come there by the office later? Let's just talk to them about that, right?" And you're like, "Who me? " Like, "Yeah, you.
Scott: Like, I mean, don't, you know, and that goes back to culture and this, we've talked many times about H.J. Holtz and Son, and there's been plenty of co- podcasts you can go back and listen to [00:23:00] about their culture, but the idea of living that value and this idea of we care about each other, well, if your supervisor is being disrespectful to you or whatever, well, dang, we should, he wants to know.
Scott: I know he wants to know because he's living the values that he's agreed live, so we're going to go talk about it. And I think that can, first of all, it can send a message that says, We're not going to let people just complain for the sake of complaining. It's, we're okay with criti- with constructive criticism or feedback.
Scott: We'll talk and get better. But just going to complain about it just because you're a complainer, it's not going to work out that well for you because we're going to bring that out into the light pretty quickly.
Rick: Yes. Yeah, gossip is a horrible thing, and it takes a long time to get through that. But the best way, in my opinion, to alleviate gossip in the workplace is to stop gossiping.
Rick: Like, I can preach about gossiping all the time, but if I'm doing it,
Scott: Yeah.
Rick: What does that say?[00:24:00]
Scott: Yeah.
Rick: Or if I say, you know, send out a video or send out a video with a questionnaire and say, y'all should stop gossiping,
Scott: Yeah.
Rick: but I'm not willing to put my face in front of everybody that works there and say, "You need to stop gossiping,"
Scott: Yeah.
Rick: then it doesn't look like it's important to me.
Scott: Yeah.
Rick: You know, so the things that are important to us, we need to be f- out front, leading the charge.
Scott: Yeah.
Rick: We need to be the cheerleader.
Scott: Yeah. Because we're in the meetings talking about people sometimes in ways that are probably not that cool and they, everyone sees it, yeah.
Rick: Yeah and you know what I've tried to tell my team, a lot of times we used to get wrapped up in names and people with problems. And I was like, "I w- I want y'all to look deeper," because nine times out of 10, it's a process or a procedure problem. It's not a person problem, right? People, individuals are floundering because you don't have the right process or procedure in your company, and then all of a sudden, they're looked at as [00:25:00] less than, and it's, it's not them at all.
Rick: You put them in the same situation where there's a great, strong process, procedure, clear expectations, good follow-up, and they're going to fly. You know, they're going to succeed, they're going to be, you know, doing well.
Corrective Plans And Follow Up
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Scott: So I want to talk a little bit about setting steps for corrective measurements. How do you check in and coach and guide around that and, you know, make sure it's done?
Rick: Yeah. I mean, I think the biggest thing is when you have these initial meetings you map that out. You know, we're going to ... Let's get together again in two weeks and go over. Let's go over it in 30 days. I think anything more than that it, it loses its luster, it loses its relevance.
Rick: I think when you're having these types of conversations, you need to strike while the iron is hot, while it's, you know, people are conscious of it, because I feel like in our businesses, things are changing so rapidly that you can really get sidetracked. And I think that's the important thing is follow up and follow through is so, so [00:26:00] critical.
Rick: You know, if you're not good at it and you're not going to make it a priority, your people aren't going to get better, and they know that when you tell them things, if you're not going to ... If you're known to have that reputation not following up and following through, then, you know, they just don't take it seriously.
Scott: Yeah.
Scott: Out of your week, how much time or percentage or whatever do you think that you spend on more, like, interpersonal stuff, like, helping people get better at these types of things? Do you spend a lot of your time doing this, do you think?
Rick: Probably less than 20% of my time.
Scott: Yeah.
Rick: I'd like to do more of it. Now, you know, I might spend 20% of my time with others, but I feel like I'm spending, you know, at least 20% on myself because I feel like it does start with me and the way that people have improved and grown around me is directly related to how I've tried to [00:27:00] improve myself. Does that make sense?
Scott: Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. Yeah..
Rick: You can't ... You can't ask everybody to get get better if you're not invested in trying to get better yourself and um, it's taken me a long time to figure that out. But it really does. It starts with us. It does.
Scott: Yeah.
When To Let Someone Go
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Scott: When someone's working through something and you're wor- guiding them and you've given them steps and sort of a, some benchmarks or deadlines and whatever, and they're not getting there, talk to me a little bit about how you manage people that are just falling short and then how do you know when it's time to go ahead and, you know, what, when, what's the final time and when do you know it's time to move on?
Rick: The final time is when I know without a doubt I've done or my team has done everything they can do to help the person and them being a part of our organization is no longer the best thing for the [00:28:00] organization. Because in my mind or in my head or in my heart, you know, I may have written them off weeks ago or months ago, but that doesn't really matter.
Rick: And I've tried to stress that to my team. It doesn't matter what we think as individuals sometimes. We always got to look at it through the lens of what's the best for the company, right? And so it's those two things, really, Scott. It's, I've done, or we've done everything we can to support this person to help them be successful, and B, they're of no benefit to the organization, to the company. Done. It's done. But if there's reasonable doubt that we haven't done everything we could to make them successful, then it's not time to let them go yet.
Scott: Yeah. So you recently had someone that you think that maybe you held on too long. Why did you do that and do you, do you wish you had done it differently?
Rick: I mean, that's an easy answer for me. Personally I, I don't like to hurt people, and I perceived [00:29:00] that situation as if I get rid of this person, I'm hurting them.
Scott: Okay.
Rick: Instead of looking at it as a steward of the company and saying, " This person's not helping this company one bit, and it doesn't matter if I feel like I'm hurting them or not.
Rick: If they're not benefiting the company, then I'm not doing my job as the leader of the company and preserving its integrity.
Scott: Yeah.
Rick: So it's really, I failed. It was my fault.
Scott: Yeah. But the person ne- had been given many opportunities to improve and they weren't improving either.
Rick: Yes, absolutely. Yes. Without a doubt. This, there was just a disconnect. What ... I was, you know, we were trying to put forth, you know, this is what we need but it just wasn't happening. It just wasn't.
Scott: Yeah. I think people think I'm a very direct person and I'm actually not naturally direct. There's a, there's some other factors involved that I won't get in to now, but,
Rick: But you are a direct person, Scott.
Scott: am direct. I'm individualistic is what I am.
Ask For Buy In And Root Causes
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Scott: [00:30:00] But so, so I sometimes will just ask someone directly like, before, before we invest any more time, do you want to work here?
Scott: Is this ... Now, some people would say, "Well, that's a dumb question." I think if you study sales and you talk about trial closes and getting people to agree, right? Or, you know, so it's, it, and I think also sometimes we get on soapboxes and we tell people, "You're going to to be better and you're going to be on time and you're going to do this and you're going to do that.
Scott: And then, and they're going they're just like, "Oh what ... " That's, that's not their reasons, okay? Those are your reasons. And until you get someone to start accepting responsibility and agreeing, I don't know if that's really a good way to change behavior. I don't think it is actually. Let me just say it that way.
Scott: But this idea of saying, "Hey, first of all, before we spend any more time on this, do you want to work here?" And I'm assuming they're going to say, "Yes, I do. " Then I sometimes will just ask them I've wanted some different behaviors and I haven't been able to [00:31:00] get through. Could you help me understand what I'm missing here?"
Scott: Or, "What is it that i- is going on with you that we're not getting any traction?" And I might just see if they can come up with their own plan or some kind of buy-in to say, "Yeah, I'm going to do this, " because now it's theirs.
Rick: yeah, because just like a doctor, like, you don't want to write a prescription based on the wrong symptoms, right? Because what we think the symptoms are, it's even better to, for them to tell us, right? Well, it has nothing to do with work, whatever. You know, I'm having an issue with my spouse, or I'm having a challenge with my child, or, you know, it could be something totally different but it's drastically affecting how they behave at work.
Rick: So yeah, they could love working here, but they have something else going on. And it could have something to do with work too, but I love that that, you know, do you even like working here? Is this a place you want to be? Is this a place you look forward to coming to?
Scott: Yeah. it's not uncommon in the higher management levels or sales or, you know, executive levels that [00:32:00] sometimes these people are like, "You know what, you're ... I no, I really don't. I don't like my job. I don't like sales.
Rick: Doing it for the money.
Scott: Yeah. Or, "I just don't know what else to do.
Scott: And then there's some handles to maybe we could do something with that. "Okay, well, why don't we find either another position here or let's help you go somewhere else. "But, you know, so there, to me, that's empathy. So it's not the, "Hey, I'll just keep paying you for the rest of your life even though you're not really doing that great of a job."
Scott: No,
Rick: You can just hang out here.
Scott: Let me just write you a check.
Rick: There you go.
Scott: but this idea of saying," Here, I'm, I care about you and I care about me, so I'm not going to let you be in, have a inferior or a poor production here. I'm going to help you either get better or we're going to help you move, that's, either one's fine with me, you decide what you want.
Rick: Yeah.
Scott: it's up to them.
Rick: It's hard to, because I mean, I feel like employees in general and all of us as humans sometimes, you know, we get into [00:33:00] situations and it's comfortable, right? It's comfortable because it's not change. It's predictable and it's comfortable and we're not giving it the effort that it deserves, but we feel safe.
Rick: And sometimes it's just a matter of us as managers and leaders identifying those people to try to help them get motivated again, you know? Maybe they've lost that luster. Maybe it's not that they have a problem. Maybe they've just gotten comfortable and complacent, and that's why we also need to check in with people regularly.
Scott: Yeah.
Feedback You Need To Hear
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Scott: I think there's some other t- things that just as kind of we wrap this up I've heard some interesting things lately and I've even used some of them myself, which is, " Hey, what do you want- wish you could say to me but you're afraid to say? "Right?
Rick: Absolutely.
Scott: right? That's like a, hey, you know, free pass here, no consequences.
Scott: What ... If, you know, if we were out without, I wasn't your boss, what would you say? What would you [00:34:00] say to me? What are you not telling me? " There's this, you know, idea of, "Well, I don't know if I can tell Rick the truth. He says I can, but I don't know what he know. No, you really can. " And now it doesn't mean I'm not going to direct you to acting on that statement.
Scott: You might need to go have a conversation with what you know, your supervisor or someone. I'm not going to necessarily give you a pass on being responsible, but yeah, I really want to hear it. I really want to understand because they might have something that can really help your company and no one's asked them.
Rick: Yeah. Well, I, to ... I, that's happened to me twice. I mean, I have two instances that just jump out in my mind. One of them, we, I was just reminded of this past week, you know, one of my project managers told me one time, "You know, Rick, whenever you get involved in a job, an individual job, you create chaos." And I was like, "What?" Like like I can manage jobs. I've been managing jobs since before you were born, and you're [00:35:00] telling me that if I get involved in your job, I'm going to make it worse. You know what I mean? I'm like, "This is what I'm thinking." And then I was like, "God he's a good guy. I mean, he's a smart guy and all that.
Rick: Like, what's ... There's something to that. " And after I stopped being hurt
Scott: Yeah.
Rick: I thought about it for a minute, and I realized it had nothing to do with me not being capable of managing a job. It was the fact that I would swoop in and swoop out, right? There's no consistency when I would get involved in a job. I wouldn't see it through.
Rick: I was just, you know, pecking at things that I would see and then I'd create a lot of chaos and bad feelings and then leave. So that was a big, like, lesson for me that came from one of my employees that basically said, "Rick, you need to stay in your lane." And you know what? I, I listened to him it was great feedback for me, but we think because we're the boss that we can do whatever we want, but doing whatever we want doesn't help the company.
Scott: Yeah. I know [00:36:00] another one that that, this, that I think you might bring out, which was, you were told that you have m- you, you don't have a single standard, you have multiple standards.
Rick: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, wasn't consistent enough across the board.
Scott: Yeah. So you had your favorites and they got treated differently than the people that weren't your favorites. Is that kind of the gist of that?
Rick: Yeah. Yeah. And that's that's been a hard thing for me to to abide by through the years because we do. You do get attached to people but when it comes down to it, you know, the person that's been with you for six months is doing a really good job how can you differentiate them from somebody else that's been with you for a long time?
Rick: They've got to have a fair chance too.
Scott: Yeah.
Thanks For Listening to Success Beyond The Brush!
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Scott: And my closing thoughts are that I also th- think it's okay to give people a final warning. And using that gossip example I would just go straight up to the person and say, "Hey, I'd love to hear anything you have to say that's constructive. I can take it and I want your feedback, but gossip will tear apart our company.
Scott: I [00:37:00] won't allow it. And the next time I hear it, that came from you, I'm going to, I'm going to let you go. Is that clear?" Or something of that nature. Because I don't, I don't think anybody should get terminated and be shocked. I think they sh- I
Rick: No, the writing should be on the wall. I
Scott: Not just a, I'm getting a vibe. It's a, yeah, they talked to me a bunch of times, they gave me all the training I needed or the coaching, they were patient, they talked to me over and over and over, and this feels like just the natural progression.
Scott: And basically whether they would express it in words or not, they fired themselves because they were given every opportunity to be better and they never actually got better.
Rick: Yeah. And I mean, that goes back to the question you asked me about my example if you get an employee to the point where they've essentially fired themselves, then you know it's the right thing.
Scott: Yeah. Yep.
Scott: So ... [00:38:00] you, Scott. Always love sitting down and chatting with you.
Scott: Thanks.
Rick: Thanks.
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