The Side Quest Book Club Podcast

Back to Cradle, we go! In this Part 2 episode of Underlord, Slava and Jonathan continue their track through Cradle. Join them for Book 7 of Will White's Cradle Series, Underlord.

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(00:00) Intro
(01:08) Housekeeping and Episode Overview
(03:31) Exploring Underlord's Plot and Characters
(07:52) Character Types in Cradle Series
(15:37) Villains and Antagonists in Cradle
(18:01) Allies and Mentors: The Role of Mercy
(25:41) The Anti-Hero: Orthos
(28:09) The Deuteragonist: Yeren
(31:06) Side Quest: Weaknesses of Sacred Art Paths
(36:25) Consequences and Responsibilities in Daily Work
(36:54) Exploring Literary Devices
(37:51) Charity's Revenge and Lyndon's Growth
(39:14) Lyndon's Journey to Power
(42:05) Irony of Lyndon's Progression
(44:27) Survival and Growth Under Pressure
(50:14) Monumental Events in the Story
(52:06) Yeren's Lifeline Crisis
(54:32) Yeren's Emotional Journey
(01:00:19) The Blood Shadow Dilemma
(01:01:19) Anticipation for Future Events
(01:06:11) Hot Takes and Predictions
(01:08:07) Rating the Book & Outro

Creators and Guests

Host
Jonathan
Host
Slava

What is The Side Quest Book Club Podcast?

Join Slava and Jonathan as they discuss the books they are reading. Explore world-building, characters, and story development—and share some laughs along the way. Side Quest Book Club — a literary adventure podcast.

Jonathan:

Good morning, good afternoon, and good night, wherever you're tuning in. We are Slava and Jonathan bringing you the SideQuest podcast where we talk about character development, stories, and all things that are world building. And we occasionally take SideQuest because, frankly, Welcome back, fellow book lovers. As we set off on today's side quest, be sure to hit that subscribe button so you never miss an episode.

Slava:

Yes, sir, Jonathan. We are in episode 102 Mhmm. Part 2 of Underlord by Will White.

Jonathan:

That is correct. Little housekeeping before we start. I hope you guys enjoyed the special episodes. Please comment and reach out to let us know if you like them, you don't like them. If you don't like them, we won't do them.

Jonathan:

Them. They're actually way more work than these normal episodes, but we have gotten some comments, like, people asking and you we said this in the other episode of, like, what's it take to make a podcast? How do I do one? So we wanted to make it for those people. But if the majority of you are not on board, then, like, let us know, and we will simply save the time.

Slava:

Absolutely. It takes a lot of work, extra work to make an episode like that. And one might think the opposite where you're preparing for a book episode, you're doing the research, I'm doing the research, you're doing your own thing. We get together and have calls before the episodes to make sure the outline, the template, and the framework is all in sync with what each of us wanna say so it flows well. That takes a lot less time than sitting down and writing out a storyboard or a script and a template for reflections on 99 episodes or what we did in episode 100 where we talked about some of our favorite moments and discussed the journey from a different perspective.

Slava:

That takes weeks weeks of preparation where an episode like this takes a few days. And if it takes more for me to do the research of the author and the book itself and some of the other elements that we have brought into the new template, that's spread out over a long period of time as we're reading the book, so it doesn't feel as a heavy over lift. So to echo what you said, Jonathan, yeah, the audience doesn't need us pontificating on favorite books and podcast best practices, so I'm happy to stop.

Jonathan:

Yeah. Me too. Me too. Anyway, we've got the second episode of Cradle right now for Underlord, and then next episode, we're super excited to have the largest guest episode we've ever had. You'll see some returning guests and a surprise guest, which will be cool.

Jonathan:

And then after that, the 2025 schedule continues going. So we're looking forward to that. There is, like, one discrepancy on which book we're doing after this, so we'll let you show up for the surprise. Anyway, let's dive right in, Slava.

Slava:

The dread gods are awakening, prompting the monarchs of Kratel to hold the uncrowned tournament to cultivate new sacred artists. The Akura clan opens night with Weil Valley to their vassal states, the Black Flame Empire and the Seishin Kingdom. Akura Charity will select the top 3 underlords from each kingdom with a focus on targeting Lindon due to his role in Akura Harmony's death. In night, Wheel Valley, Seishin Kiro, and his protector Miara confront Lindon who eventually becomes an underlord. Yarin also manages to advance to underlord amidst the chaos of a surprise attack by the Seishin Kingdom on the Black Flame Empire.

Slava:

During this turmoil, Lindon kills prince Kiro, prompting prince Daegai to vow revenge, only to be defeated by Mercy. Afterward, Charity announces the vassal state team for the tournament. Yaren, Aethan, and Naru Seiya will compete while Lindon will participate on the Black Flame team to repay his debt. Meanwhile, in Sacred Valley, Wei Shi Kelsa hiding from hunters in Kaunters Orthos. And, of course, the Evian continue their struggles against the Roshier as they fight to protect their worlds.

Jonathan:

It's an exciting time over in the world of Cradle. Tell you that much.

Slava:

That it is. Yeah.

Jonathan:

I also just love the moment of Ortho showing up

Slava:

Oh, hell yeah.

Jonathan:

For Kelsey. To me, it was a very emotional moving moment, because you're like, he's leaving. I don't know where he's going. And then you're like, oh, we're going back to Sacred Valley. And then suddenly, he shows up, and you're like, oh my gosh.

Jonathan:

It's such a great reveal.

Slava:

It is. Once you read that Orthos is leaving, you think he's going somewhere else, and he he'll come back and book whatever. And at the end of it, he's like, oh, wait. He went on a quest, but it was a very special site quest that he went on.

Jonathan:

Exactly. Yeah. It moved me emotionally. I'll tell you that much.

Slava:

And who do we have to thank for these emotional movements?

Jonathan:

Oh, just mister Will White, best selling American fantasy author known for his Cradle series. He started his authorship with the House of Blades trilogy, which is fun and unique. There's these it's called the Traveler's Gate trilogy, but House of Blades is the first book, if I'm remembering correctly. And it's these fortresses, basically. Each fortress has sort of a different theme, and the one that you follow with the main character is you can't get to the next room unless you're powerful enough to get to the next room.

Jonathan:

There's also a time limit where the entity of the house I haven't read this in a while, so if I'm messing this up, you know, drop it in the comments and correct me. But the entity that, like, runs the house will kill the person who is there trying to go through the the different rooms if they can't do it in time. That also is where the character gets trained because they need to overcome these rooms. The entity that runs the house has a doll collection, and the dolls speak even though they don't move, so it's like telepathy. But each of the dolls, when you carry them, has a different power that you get to use.

Jonathan:

It's, like, super unique.

Slava:

If Annabelle knew karate.

Jonathan:

I don't get the reference.

Slava:

Annabelle is a horror movie about a possessed doll. Ah. It's a silly joke.

Jonathan:

Got it. Well If you know, you know. Apparently, I don't. Anyway, worth a read. I think we'll get to it at some point.

Jonathan:

It's that's his first debut authorship piece, which is really fun. But White is often celebrated for his dynamic characters, fast paced storytelling, and immersive world building. He's currently working on a new series called Horizon. It's in the Cradle universe, and also, House of Blades is technically in the Cradle universe. There's no overlaps at the moment besides some bloopers from book 1 of Horizon, where we see a character from Cradle, which was kind of fun.

Jonathan:

He's good at forcing his characters to go through strong emotional arcs across the books that I've read. He's worth a read. Yeah. If you are like, I'm not sure about this, give it give him a rundown. Give him a rundown.

Jonathan:

So Slava, let's move into something we didn't talk about last time. As the audience knows, we're trying to create education and entertainment in this podcast, and we didn't cover last time characters and the types of characters that they are in the story. Would you give us just a quick overview before we jump into this? For any new listeners, what are the types of characters? What are we gonna be discussing here for a little bit Yeah.

Jonathan:

So that they have a little context?

Slava:

There are probably 6. You can parse this out a few different ways. For our context, there will be 6. So there's the hero or the protagonist. There's the mentor.

Slava:

There is the deuteragonist, if I'm pronouncing that right, but the second protagonist, kinda the the Robin to the Batman, if you will. The villain, of course. There's usually allies for the protagonist, and then there's the antihero in a lot of books. Sometimes the book just focuses on an antihero and he or she is the protagonist, but for us, we have all 6.

Jonathan:

There's more as well. Yeah. I realized I put you on the spot there. There's, like, the foil. We talked about this during Yeah.

Jonathan:

Name of the wind. So there's a bunch of different character types archetypes, if you will, and each author uses them differently. Some of the things that we subconsciously actually really love as readers is watching these characters play out these different archetypes because the flavor of the archetype is unique to the author and the story and the world. Yeah. We wanna just take a minute and look at the different types that White uses in Cradle.

Slava:

Yeah. So the villain will be the core faction and their representatives. They are always a looming threat. They're not outright villains, but they serve as a powerful, potentially hostile force within the empire. Right?

Slava:

Their influence in the world, they add political intrigue that foreshadows danger. What else? Like I said, there's conflicts that Linden and his friends face directly from Acura or from the efforts of Acura in world, the consequences of them, the consequences of those efforts. Their dominance kind of sets the standard that pushes the protagonist on their journey.

Jonathan:

Yeah. It's interesting to have a villain that's not a villain because oftentimes, I think we're used to, like, what's a what's a common example? Sonic. If you know about Sonic the Hedgehog, doctor Robotnik is the villain, and he's the villain every episode or Looney Tunes. Right?

Jonathan:

Wile E. Coyote is always trying to get Roadrunner. And it's like, oh, well, he's the villain. You know? We understand that.

Jonathan:

What's the well, I wanna I wanna use the third one. So, Bugs Bunny is always running away from do you remember the guy's name? The little person who Elmer Fudd. Elmer Fudd. That's right.

Jonathan:

We have these, quote, unquote, villains, but the thing is they don't have to be super evil in the sense that they are, you know, demon possessed or whatever with, like, some of the horror books we read because they could even be something that's more amorphous similar to what's that blue alien world?

Slava:

Avatar? Avatar.

Jonathan:

Yeah. The villain there is actually just the military complex. So it's, like, not even a person. It's just a thing. And that's similar to what we have here with the Akura clan where it's this big force, not necessarily a specific being.

Jonathan:

Sometimes authors use that. I don't know if you wanna share any examples from some of the horror books that we've looked at or other thoughts you have on that.

Slava:

Well, I don't think the horror books we read have an entity or a force as a villain. Right? Most of them are pretty straightforward. It, Pennywise, is the villain.

Jonathan:

Mhmm.

Slava:

Head full of ghosts is the parents really kinda messing things up.

Jonathan:

Was so frustrating.

Slava:

Yeah. In City in the City, you kinda have this good the government entity. So there, that's a one. That's not a horror book. That's a speculative

Jonathan:

Yeah. Of fiction. I mean, it didn't need to be horror specific. I just meant, like, other stuff we've read.

Slava:

Right. Right. So it'd be City in the City that comes to mind right away because you have the Breach. They're kind of the

Jonathan:

Yes. The Breach.

Slava:

They're kind of the villain, but not individual in the Breach is this evil demon possessed totally focused on destruction. The entity itself, the organization that serves as the villain in that story. But that's the only book that comes to mind out of what we've read that has a similar villain, meaning that it's not a person wholly committed to destruction or evil deeds, but serves as the villain in the arc of the story.

Jonathan:

Yeah. One thing that I think we wanna touch on is there's actually a few villains in this book. So we have Okura. That's, like, more of a macro, and then we also have the dread gods, which are not at the forefront as a villain at the moment, but they are a part of this. Right?

Jonathan:

We've seen in the a couple books prior to this, like, oh, the dread gods are looming. One of Lindon's kind of main goals is to stop the dread gods closest to Sacred Valley from destroying it because he got a vision from Serial if you remember book 1. You can have competing villains, if you will. The thing is, like, books are only so long, and you have to give them screen time to use a film term. And if you don't give them screen time, they kind of are out of sight out of mind.

Jonathan:

For this book, because the Okura family, specifically, I'm thinking about Charity, the sage, she's kinda got a vendetta against Linden in particular to put his feet to the fire, if you will, because he killed one of her family members. She just wants to see if he can repay her his debt that he, doesn't know he has. So Right. Anyway, that's that's a little bit about villains where it's both simple and complex, I think.

Slava:

And in a book like this, you have other microvillains. So we're gonna use macro and micro terms like you just did. Mhmm. The guy who takes Lindon's arm. I forget his name.

Jonathan:

Zhai Chen. Zhai no. Yes. Zhai Chen?

Slava:

Yeah. That's Zhai Chen. That's someone that falls under the villain category that Lindon encounters while the bigger things are happening too. So the dread gods and the Abaddon and the Kura faction, all of them are doing their thing, and we're focused on Akura as the villain of the story specifically. But there's these micro villains too, and the school that, Lindon goes to and has to climb the mountain.

Slava:

Like, their people are complete.

Jonathan:

Villains as well?

Slava:

Villains towards Linden. His family, I wouldn't necessarily call them villains, but his his Sacred Valley life, the people who run his clan, they're villain ish because they're just god awful people.

Jonathan:

I'd put his family into the antagonist role, not necessarily villain.

Slava:

That's that's fair. Yeah. That's a good way of looking at it.

Jonathan:

So a quick definition for folks. Villains are often evil with malicious intent, whereas antagonists are simply helping to create resistance against the protagonist. Is that clear enough?

Slava:

No. That's very clear. It's a good way of, of dissecting it.

Jonathan:

Okay. Anyway, continue on with your, with your thought there. Just wanted to insert that to help us get a little clarity in in the series that we're addressing.

Slava:

I think that covers it, but it's not all about villains and antagonists. We also have mentors and allies, and I think the most clear ally that we see in the book is Mercy. She's kindhearted. She's a skilled sacred artist from the Akura clan, so that's kind of, you know, a little bit of unexpected what's the word I'm looking for? Not irony, but complexity adds complexity to the story.

Slava:

So she's from the Akura faction, which we just said is a villain, but she as an individual acts like an ally to our hero and, I was gonna say, Jasnah and Yaren.

Jonathan:

Nice. Very nice.

Slava:

That's what happens when you read 2 books at the same time. It's true. She becomes a friend, an ally to Linden and Yaron, but her personality contrasts with the fierce training and competition around her because she even annoys Yairin in some moments because she's so cheery and bubbly, which is fun. And her compassion, her powerful background, specifically, she's from the Kura faction, which is a pretty powerful faction in this world, brings a softer dynamic to the group, and then it gives Yaron and Linden access to knowledge that they might not have because Ethan, he's off doing his own thing in this moment. So Mercy's here kinda filling in the gap, and her alliance with the protagonist

Jonathan:

integrates them into the world of

Slava:

the Quirra clan so they have access to them. And then there's where you get a more flavorful story. Right? There are just layers to it. It's not black and white, and so that makes this kind of story such a fun read.

Slava:

It's more realistic. It's more believable. There's even people maybe on the Akura clan that you can identify with and say, hey. I've been this way, or I understand why the Akura clan is the way that they are because, oh, I watched this movie. I read this book.

Slava:

I've taken this class. I've lived this event in my life. You can immerse yourself in the story, and you find these little gems that you identify with or help you think about the world in a different way. I think this particular character, Mercy, and what I just described as her being an ally, helps Will create that kind of a world and tell a story where people, to your point, want more. They want book 13 and 14 and then maybe even, you know, 22.

Jonathan:

It's true. We we want more. We haven't come up with a, a slogan to chant yet, but but we we want more. So Four more books? What do we want?

Jonathan:

Four more books. When do we want them? Today. Something. We'll figure out a figure out a chant there.

Jonathan:

You and me. We'll just chant it, and people will go, what are you guys talking about? We'll go, read the book.

Slava:

We can get the audience to do it. What would be a chant that you would create if you were to march down the streets of your city demanding that Will White write more books in the Cradle series? I I want that in the comments.

Jonathan:

That's good. That's a good question. But keeping this moving forward, I was gonna mention that it's fun to have one of the allies be from the family of the villains we were talking about. It adds a a unique contrast because you wonder, like, is she on your side? Is she not?

Jonathan:

It's mixed with Mercy's personality that is so bubbly and so friendly. I think we've seen in other stories, at least I have, that people who come from highly privileged status lives, and they were raised, you know, silver spoon, basically, don't really get to have a lot of friends for better or worse. That creates a dynamic where she wants to have friends. Everyone should have friends. It's a good thing to have friends because she was so her status was the ruling class she didn't really get to.

Jonathan:

Right? So it's a more unique dynamic in literature, I think, unless I'm misremembering that this is pretty common. I don't think it is.

Slava:

I'm thinking of Romeo and Juliet, which is completely different, but there's a principle of play that's kind of the same where 2 kids from opposing factions, opposing families find something in common. I think Mercy finds something in common. There's an attachment that she has to Lindon and Yerin and themselves as persons and their story and what they're going through. She's part of this world. She's part of what's going on.

Slava:

The drag gods and the Abaddon and everything that is going on in this world, the overarching story of it. She's part of it, and she finds something to latch on to in Lindon and Yerin. And there is plenty of movies that we watched that tell a similar story. I think the movie is called Night Watch. It's a movie about a family of cops, Joaquin Phoenix.

Slava:

He's not necessarily a full out criminal, but he's on the side of the villains, on the side of the criminals. Mhmm. And, again, not analogous to the story, but he's kinda on the outside, and he has friends around him that he is attached to even though they're in opposition to his family. And, again, it goes back to the dynamic, layered, unique way of telling a story Mhmm. Where Joaquin Phoenix is not just a scumbag who has left the his cop family and is just an outright, you know, lowlife criminal.

Slava:

There's a unique layered character in him. So, again, not analogous, but it's close. The the principle of telling those kind of stories where you get more robust characters, you get characters that are not 2 dimensional, that's a realistic story. Right? A believable story.

Slava:

We've touched upon this a few times in our discussions about books. What makes a story believable? And I think stuff like this does, and because Mercy has favor with her family too, I think the Acura clan would trust her if she backed up Linden and Yerin. Now whether or not they would take her suggestions and go with it right away, no, but she is in both worlds, and it creates tension with her family a little bit, and it gives Linden and Yaron some reprieve on the other end of it, and it has the access that they have now to the knowledge she has. So it's this multicolored kaleidoscope of a story that is created, whether it's the movies I just mentioned or this book specifically.

Jonathan:

Well, so I wanna challenge one thing. I don't feel like they get a lot of benefit from the Akura family from Mercy's position there until the end of this book where Mercy's like, hey, mother. I will, you know, concede. I'll come back to the family, whatever. Blah blah blah.

Jonathan:

Then she's like, okay. And then her mom's about to leave, and she she's like, wait. Are you not gonna take me? And she's like, I thought you had unfinished business here. And she's like, okay.

Jonathan:

Alright. I get to go solve the problem for my friends real quick, even though I've committed to, like, leaving them. Until that happens, I don't really feel like they get the benefit. And maybe I'm being, nitpicky. And if I am, just throw it back at me.

Jonathan:

But I don't think that Mercy's help really starts to flourish. It's it's certainly for, is is a help that she gets to know about Night Wheel Valley and where to go for things. That's good. The actual dynamic with the family itself, I don't think takes place until later at the end of this book, in my opinion.

Slava:

There's nothing to throw back. I think it's just looking at the same thing from a different perspective. Right? The benefits that they get, in my opinion, is the knowledge that Mercy has, which I mentioned earlier. Mhmm.

Slava:

And because they're friends with a person in the Kura family who's technically the villain here, because they're friends with her, that's some protection that they receive whether they realize it or not, and Mercy from my reading

Jonathan:

Mhmm.

Slava:

And you read the whole thing. I only read up to this book. From my reading of Mercy, she seems genuine in her love for Lindon and Yaron.

Jonathan:

Oh, she's genuine. Sorry. Maybe I misunderstood. I was talking about sorry. Keep going.

Slava:

So there is this buffer, for lack of a better term, that Yaron and Linden have because of Mercy's allegiance to them or her respect and love for them. She won't be just like, well, mom says to kill them both. Right. She will try to protect them. And the other benefit that I mentioned before is whatever she knows is probably greater, at least what Linda knows.

Slava:

Right? Yaron might might know more stuff, but their mentor is not with them right now. And Mercy's there not only helping them fight, she's on their side. She's protecting them, and because she has the knowledge that the Kura faction has, she can provide insight during a battle, during a a brainstorming session that they have to figure

Jonathan:

out, well, k. Well, what do we

Slava:

do next?

Jonathan:

Brainstorming session.

Slava:

Like, they're sitting down. They're figuring out their next steps. They have the added benefit of having somebody like Mercy from the core faction with them.

Jonathan:

Fair enough. Fair enough. Let's shift over to the antihero discussion for just a couple minutes because he's one of my favorite characters, and then if you want to, we can talk about the deuteragonist or we can move on. But the antihero in Cradle would be Orthos. Orthos is from the Black Dragon family, fully cynical.

Jonathan:

I think I've referenced him as a curmudgeon before. He's sometimes begrudging with his Companionship? Companionship works. I was gonna say soul soul binding. This is, like, not a good sentence.

Jonathan:

What is it? He he his his soul contract, that's the word that I wanna he's a little bit grudging with Lyndon and his sole contract sometimes, but he is deeply loyal and has a lot of wisdom because he's so old for Lyndon in the midst of Lyndon's growth. And so even though he's not necessarily the mentor the way that Ethan's the mentor, Orthos offers guidance to Lindon as well as pushes him back. And he has all these great one liners, like, a dragon does this, a dragon does that, etcetera, etcetera, which is Yeah. Fun.

Jonathan:

It offers a little comic relief, a little bit of realism, and also keeps Lindon in line when he's being skittish and not growing into his fullest self in the progression fantasy theme that he lives in. And so I really love Orthos and his antihero tendencies. Oh, I just realized. I didn't dis define antihero. Do would you mind doing that real quick, Slava?

Jonathan:

I went on just, like, this whole tirade, but I wanted I should've should've defined it before I started talking about

Slava:

it. Yeah. I would love to. I want to bring to attention that you also referenced Stormlight Archives while trying to describe the soul the soul, contract. You said soul binding, which I think you are

Jonathan:

Surge binding?

Slava:

Yeah. That was a that was a thing.

Jonathan:

There's a lot of stuff in my head, Slava. A lot of fantasy world building.

Slava:

That's a

Jonathan:

Yeah. That's a scientific term for

Slava:

stuff. So an antihero is a central character in a story that lacks conventional heroic attributes. The the one I would say works here is idealism. He's not really an idealistic dragon. Right?

Jonathan:

True? Very true. Orthos, my go to little turtle.

Slava:

Good old Orthos. I think we can talk about the deuteragonist. Deuteragonist? Yeah. We can talk about the deuteragonist just briefly because I mentioned, like, Robin and Batman.

Slava:

Upon reflection, maybe that's a a weak analogy. How would you see Yaron fulfilling that role? Because she's skilled. She's strong. She's even stronger than Lindon.

Slava:

Without her, Linden wouldn't get to where he is, so it's not really a Batman and Robin situation. But she is a fellow protagonist. Her goals align with Linden's. She has her own personal struggles especially regarding her master's legacy, and her personal journey in a relationship with Lyndon add more to the plot. Yeah.

Slava:

She's she's fierce and independent on her own, but she also balances Linden's ambition in keeping him grounded like Orthos does, but also pushing him like Orthos does, and her loyalty is part of the strength of this group's dynamic. So maybe you can correct my Batman and Robin analogy and give a better one.

Jonathan:

Well, there's not a lot of stories that come to mind, but the first one trying to find a better analogy or a better comparison would be Jean from the Lies of Locke Lamora, where Locke is the main character, but Jean is the second main character. And we've we see this more in book 2 than book 1 because book 1 has a lot more characters in it. But book 2, because a bunch of those characters passed away or or left, Jean is still around. And so he, to me, would be a deuteragonist in comparison to, you know, Lindon and Yaren because we meet Yaren in book 1. White starts this off where their journey begins together.

Jonathan:

I would even say that Sam is almost a deuteragonist for Frodo because he also starts right after Frodo starts to go on the journey in Lord of the Rings.

Slava:

I like the Locke and John comparison much better than Robin and Robin.

Jonathan:

Yeah. Oh, I thought you were just referencing the fact that you really liked the Liza Locke Lamora, but that works too.

Slava:

I really, really I really like the Liza Locke Lamora. On some of my social media platforms, my bio or about line says nice bird asshole.

Jonathan:

There it is. I was gonna say, let me guess. I don't have to because I knew that that's what it would be. Slava still sometimes will just send me that in a text. No no like, we haven't talked all day or whatever, and he'll just just boom.

Jonathan:

Nice bird asshole. Cool. I don't know what we're talking about, but that sounds great.

Slava:

That's a little, peek into how my broken humor works.

Jonathan:

Yes. Yes. It is. We've been sitting on characters and types for a minute, but, well, we hope that that opens up and lets you start thinking about the different types of heroes that you've seen in other stories that you like and how that affects the the plot and the character development.

Slava:

So what you're saying, Jonathan, is just take a little side quest.

Jonathan:

I think that that's a great idea.

Slava:

Okay. Well, I got an idea for a side quest. So last episode, we came up with our own path and what we would practice. Mhmm. This episode, I want to talk about what would be the weaknesses over sacred art path.

Slava:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

Sticking with the progression fantasy. Alright. Ah, yes. Okay. Have you already given this some thought, or or do you need a second as well?

Slava:

I've given it some thought. I'll go first, and then I'll let you jump in afterwards.

Jonathan:

Okay. Alright. Alright.

Slava:

So last episode, we talked that I would be a practitioner of the forger's flame. I didn't say what my path would be. It would be the path of the mind's eye, and this would be a journey focused on insight. Practitioners of this path seek to understand the world around them because, you know, I'm a researcher and all that stuff, so that fits in. On some level, it goes beyond just sight.

Slava:

These guys hone in their senses to perceive hidden layers, anticipate outcomes, and connect seemingly unrelated elements. Again, goes back to my strategy because I'm a digital strategist, so I've been doing Mhmm. Marketing and digital strategy. And through rigorous mental discipline, cultivators of this path learn to analyze, predict, and even influence their environment by turning clarity of mind into practical strategic power. It's like reading my job description.

Slava:

So I practice the fordish flame. That's what we talked about last episode, and this is an inner spark that allows them to turn perception into creation. But what my weakness would be, at least I think my weakness would be, is sensory overload. That would be a vulnerability. Despite the adaptness at reading the surroundings, a major risk I see in this path is where there's too much sensory input can cloud or distort perception.

Slava:

So against opponents who use this technique, the flood of senses, like biting light, disorienting sounds, conflicting auras, mind's eye practitioners, my fellow practitioners may struggle to focus as, and this is true in my life, As their sharpened perception makes them more susceptible to distraction. As great as a researcher as I am, I am very much easily distracted. Just not good in a fight with, you know, the Quora clan.

Jonathan:

Well, not only that. I was thinking about the, the path of the white fox where their whole shtick is illusions. That might be an issue for you.

Slava:

Yep. Because then you get lost in your own illusion, or you're so busy building illusions that you don't see a a sword coming at your throat. Mhmm. Mhmm.

Jonathan:

So let's remember this conversation for I wanna say it's book 10, because I wanna come back to this. So definitely feel free to remind me guys in the comments as we get to book 10. May might might be 9. I'm, can't remember. Yeah.

Jonathan:

Remember remind me when when these are coming up. That was enough time for me to think a little bit. My path from last episode was the path of the ever expanding horizon, which focuses on growth, adaptability, and vision, and the drive and desire to surpass limitations, seek new knowledge, refine themselves continually. Also highly strategic, see opportunities in any situation. The people in this path are known for their resilience and innovation.

Jonathan:

So I figured I'd have no weaknesses. Right? Because that's that's how you do that. That strategy is meant to help you prevent and derisk things. However, a little similar to what you said, Slava, because of my dependence on insight and awareness, and, like, seeing opponents or sorry, seeing opportunities and sensing threats through one of my techniques of insightful gaze.

Jonathan:

If an opponent could obscure or misdirect me with illusions at a high level, it could be a serious threat to me. The other thing that I thought of was actually 2 things. So the first thing is if I have an opponent that is just extremely strong with direct attacks or immense durability, that would be difficult for me because those are not my strengths. My strengths are playing too similar to Linden, like, using what I have and adapting as opposed to, like, doing brute force strength. Someone who's brute force strength like a Yaren, I would have trouble with probably because she's so fast and strong.

Jonathan:

And then the other piece that I thought about was one of the techniques I mentioned, I think, was resonance pulse or brand of influence where I rely heavily on affecting others through influence, but the vulnerability there for me would be facing opponents who have a strong mental fortitude. I've actually seen this in my day to day life where sometimes when I'm trying to influence someone who's just so strong willed and set in their ways, it's actually quite difficult to influence them toward the things that you're you're desiring. That actually is a big phone vulnerability because sometimes you have to convince your stakeholders that they should go a direction, and they're like, I'm not gonna do that. And you go, well, these will be the consequences. And they're like, I don't believe in consequences.

Jonathan:

Okay. Well, that's great. And then, you know, time goes on. You did what they said, and they're like, why did this happen? And, well, I told you that there are risks and consequences, like but I don't believe in consequences.

Jonathan:

This is your fault. Okay. Well but we don't have to talk about my day to day work.

Slava:

Correct. That is pretty spot on in how our day to day jobs play out.

Jonathan:

So much. So so much.

Slava:

But what do you say we talk about some literary devices? We touched upon them last episode kind of sporadically, I think, and we knocked some of them out without even really thinking about it or planning. Like, I think the internal monologues and the struggles that Yaron faces and and Linden faces, we talked about that, so we covered some literary devices. But what are some that stood out? There's foreshadowing symbolism, irony, flashbacks, metaphors, all all those good things.

Slava:

Why why don't you give us, dealer's choice? You're the dealer right now. Give us 2 or 3 to unpack from the story.

Jonathan:

Well, the first one that, to me, kinda sticks out is this plot line of Charity trying to take revenge on Lindon by influencing the Seishan clan to go after him a little bit. She didn't directly say that. And then Lindon having to also level up at the moment, Charity being able to benefit if he survives and if he dies, which feels like a juxtaposing idea for Lindon if we're following just him, his survival and trying to save Sacred Valley and, like, the stuff that he's doing. It's an antithesis because she wants to take revenge on him, but inevitably, it just makes him stronger, which then she can use, but I think she also would have been very satisfied if he died. At least that's my take based on the way that she's acting, both with the other clan she empowers, even at the end where she is gonna put some pressure on him when she recruits him to the team, the Akura team, to to represent them in the Uncrowned King tournament.

Jonathan:

So it's kind of a self juxtaposed place to be, in my opinion, with Charity herself putting a lot of pressure on Lyndon, but that inevitably making him stronger.

Slava:

That seems like something that Lyndon faces from other folks too. The that's a very specific example Yeah. And, you know, for the antithesis, but there's constantly pressures that Lyndon faces that force him to work outside his comfort zone, to not just sit here and go, well, I have what I have, and I'm gonna do my best with what I have, but he has this drive and desire to become better and stronger to save his clan. It's one of the other forces that is placed upon Linden by White that helps him understand his world better, grow, mature. Maybe he lives to her detriment, but what she does actually helps him advance.

Jonathan:

I wanna pause for a second before I pick another one of these. How far do you think Lyndon gets to go?

Slava:

Oh, that's a good question. If if I'm to believe that Ethan wants to go to the end of the sacred arts

Jonathan:

Uh-huh.

Slava:

And if Flynn is along for the ride and he's gonna be taken on this journey of advancement, I don't see any issues of him becoming a monarch.

Jonathan:

Okay. Okay.

Slava:

Right now, he's under lord. And what there's only a few levels above him. Right?

Jonathan:

It's underlord, overlord, archlord, and then oh, I can't remember the next ones.

Slava:

Alright. So there's more.

Jonathan:

There's more. There's more. Yeah.

Slava:

Okay. So maybe he gets to one of those. That's why you want more because there's more for Linden to do. Because if he reaches monarch, well, right, he's the king Poohbah right right at that moment.

Jonathan:

The king Poohbah.

Slava:

It's another sacred art path. Yeah. Okay. I definitely think he's gonna go through 2 or 3 more advancements, but I don't think my guess of him becoming a monarch is far fetched. I think he can get to it because we have 6 more books, and he's advanced really quickly, twice in some books.

Jonathan:

Do you think that he advances too quickly?

Slava:

No. I think the nature of the story, the nature of the book, the genre, his advancement makes sense for the genre.

Jonathan:

Yeah. Fair enough. I also did a quick correction for myself. So it is Underlord, Overlord, Archlord, and then it is sort of Monarch. However, there are 2 side step or, like, side tier categories as well.

Jonathan:

There's sage and herald. We've seen sages. We haven't really seen heralds yet from what I recall. You can be a sage, but not be a monarch, and you can be a monarch and not be a sage. It's kind of like one of the 3, sort of.

Jonathan:

That's also, like, not a good explanation either.

Slava:

Okay.

Jonathan:

I think Drost says it really well at the beginning of this book somewhere. He's like, when Lindon is trying to figure out how to create soulfire and become underlord and whatever, and Dross is like, oh, I remember all the details, but let's just listen to Aethen and figure out what he says to make sure he says it right. And then Lindon is like, that's kinda weird. And then Dross says something like, the rest of the the rest of figuring out the sacred arts is very weird, which I think is just White's kind of kitschy, like, elbow jab in the ribs. Like, it's not gonna make sense, but it will make sense.

Slava:

Kinda like what Jasnah tells, Shallan in Words of Radiance when she's talking about Shadesmar, and Jasnah is explaining what she knows about the realm. Shallan's response was, I don't understand what you're talking about. I'm paraphrasing. How am I supposed to understand any of it? And Jasna says, you're not.

Slava:

I've started this for 6 years, and I barely know anything about it. So Mhmm. It'll take some time for you to to understand what Shadesmar is and how we access it and what it means that we have this world that's around us, but not really perceptible to, you know, the basic senses. Anyway, that's me going into a different world.

Jonathan:

Book. That's me hopping world.

Slava:

That's me hopping worlds.

Jonathan:

With a world hopper over there.

Slava:

Yeah. Look at me.

Jonathan:

I'd say the second thing that comes to mind initially is kind of the irony of where Lind is at versus where he's been. Like, the book starts with him as an unsold, which is a person with no path, no power, no future. He is basically the cripple in his family and his tribe, and he's a joke because he keeps getting older and can't fight 6 year olds, and he's, like, 16 because they're more powerful than he is mixed with, you know, the irony and the contrast of, okay. He's about to become Underlord. Now he would just have to look at one of these 6 year olds incorrectly, and they'll die.

Jonathan:

So Right. Definitely the irony. And I think that's pretty clear, or I think that's a pretty clear trope in progression fantasy books or progression focused books because you have to get stronger. That's the whole genre.

Slava:

You know? For somebody like Lindon, he will undoubtedly progress farther than people who are taking it slow and steady. They know that they have a soul. They know that they have a path, and they're working towards becoming whatever the hell they need to be. Like, for his clan, it's I think, Jade is as far as it goes.

Slava:

And so they're on a steady path, but for Linden, he is forced because the stakes are higher for him. He is forced to do double, triple the work, so it's natural that he will advance beyond them eventually.

Jonathan:

That reminds me of a quote. So being forced to advance or being at odds or or, you know, back against the wall as your position, in my opinion, and I think I've kind of alluded to this, maybe even spoken about directly, that is the best place to grow because you don't have an option. And the quote that it reminds me of is Sun Tzu in The Art of War has this concept of death ground where soldiers have no option but to fight for survival because it actually taps into something a little more primal than they initially do because it's like, well, there is no other option. The option is survive. And when you get something when you when you boil down your existence to, if I don't do this task, I'm going to die, most the time, you can tap into, I guess, I'd call it levels of the subconscious that are there but are not accessible from a conscious realm, you push forward.

Jonathan:

He says, in one spot, when you are on death ground, you fight. At another spot, he encourages generals, throw your soldiers into positions from which there is no escape, and they will prefer death to fight. If they face death, there's nothing they may not achieve. If they survive this death ground, they will be so elated with their achievement that they overcame, it will actually create even more of a drive, a stronger fire within them. And I think we see this in Lindon's life.

Jonathan:

I don't know if I can give Will White credit for, like, thinking ahead and, like, doing this. It truly just unfolded for Lindon in his character arc that Will wrote as he was dreaming up this this storyline.

Slava:

If you think about the soldiers that were dropped in the western front in World War 1,

Jonathan:

you

Slava:

know, the trench warfare Mhmm. I think the ones that survived, that wasn't about the cause, if you will. I think it was, I just need to survive. Now you can fast forward to World War 2, and there was definitely more of a a cost to the fighting for the allies, and there was, like, this honor and the right thing to do mentality. If I think about some of the Americans who are fighting in the Indo Pacific in the jungles, yeah, maybe they joined because they wanted to stop Russia and Germany at that point, more specifically, and the Japanese.

Slava:

In a thick of it, I don't think anybody's, you know, remembering the speech that their general gave before they landed. Right? They're thinking about survival. So the gamut of that experience, whether it's just pure survival because you were just conscripted and thrown into the western front or you joined up because you have a sense of duty and honor to fight for your country or to get revenge against the Japanese, whatever that looks like for the individual, in the thick of the fight, it's only survival.

Jonathan:

Yeah. There's one more example that comes to mind, and I think it was in Robert Greene's 48 laws of strategy, 38 laws of strategy. I'm trying to remember how many strategy. I I can't remember the name of the book at the moment, but he gives us example of the I wanna say it's a Spanish conquistadors. Sorry.

Jonathan:

It's 33 Strategies of War, I believe is is what it's called. He's got numbers in a lot of his books. Yeah. It's 33 Strategies of War. Yes.

Jonathan:

I'm correct. Okay. And he talks about the Spanish conquistadors when they landed in Latin America, and I think it was Cuba specifically, actually, or it could have been well, it doesn't matter. They landed somewhere. And I wanna say the leader of the expedition was Vasquez, maybe?

Jonathan:

And he was having trouble with his his soldiers and subordinates not really committing to the cause of the conquering that they had set out for. And so his decision, and and Greene kind of unpacks this, and he quotes Sun Tzu's death ground, is one night Vasquez went and burned the boats. There's no going home. We're here. That's it.

Jonathan:

And Yeah. That actually changed the tide for the motivation for his soldiers. They were not happy, understandably so because it's like, okay. Now you're just here to survive or you'll die here. There is no going home.

Jonathan:

It's just moving forward. There's a quote behind me that I think of often from Dalinar from Stormlight Archives because you were talking about a minute ago. The most important step a man can take is the next one. So is the next one. And that's the same thing to me as death ground where it's like, you have oh, actually, I'm I'm thinking of 2 different quotes.

Jonathan:

The one behind me is if I if I must fall, I will rise a better man, but the concept is the same. I will rise each time a better man. Actually, if I get it right, I'm gonna get comment hate mail comments. It's this idea of, like, you have to move forward. Time is ever moving forward.

Jonathan:

At the end of the day, 4 years are gonna go go by, and you're gonna be 4 years older. So you can either do something today to make that self of 4 years from now have more skills or more talent or whatever, or you can burn 4 years of comfort, which a lot of people do. And they're, like, older, and they have nothing to show for it. All that to say, I somehow started with irony and ended on Sun Tzu and Robert Greene, and I've I've gotten lost on a side quest and need a little help.

Slava:

Well, that's fine. I think this is a perfect time to move on. But if you guys are enjoying this side quest, you can show your support by sharing this episode with a fellow book clubbing friend because, Jonathan, I think this is your quote. Every journey is better with friends.

Jonathan:

Let's keep this casual book club growing to maybe use a little Lord of the Rings language. Let's make the fellowship bigger. How about that?

Slava:

There you go. I like it. I like it. So thanks for listening, but let's dive back into today's quest. Another choice for the dealer, also known as John.

Slava:

Nothing because he hates being called John. Just in case anybody wants to comment, always add Jonathan, otherwise he will find you and complain.

Jonathan:

I'll treat you like charity treats, Linden.

Slava:

That's right. Let's talk about, like, a big event from our perspective. Like, what's a a thing that happened in the book that was how do I say this? That was the thought that came to me was, like, that was monumental in your enjoyment, but that sounds so pretentious. Just an event in the book.

Slava:

Yeah. This is

Jonathan:

a casual book club, Slava. No pretentiousness here except for me quoting Sun Tzu and Robert Greene.

Slava:

What's an event that's worthy of a main quest for us?

Jonathan:

Some of the stuff that I always like is kind of scratching under the surface. I love the moment we talked about earlier where Orthos leaves the group, which was super sad. Then we get the reveal near the end of the book where he ends up going to find Wei Shi Kelso, Lindon's sister, and we're like, oh, man. This is great. He's gonna help her out, and we also see that there's a bunch of turmoil in Sacred Valley now.

Jonathan:

And it's just a reminder because we've been so far away from Sacred Valley for basically book 2, book 3, book 4, book 5, and book 6. We haven't even really talked about Sacred Valley. There have been, like, a couple little moments here and there, but this to me is, like, a quick reminder of, like, hey. This all started from Sacred Valley. Linden still cares about his family even though they were terrible to him.

Jonathan:

Orthos, because they have a sole contract, knows that, and so he goes to basically help pave the way, and maybe he'll train Wai Shikelsa to become an underlord. Who knows?

Slava:

Interesting. For me, it was definitely Yaren's lifeline crisis and her need to reach under Lord where she almost dies

Jonathan:

in the book.

Slava:

To me, that is, the one that stands out. So Yaren's severe injury, which damages her lifeline, she's forced to confront her mortality. To be to save herself, she must advance to Underlord, and this is a process that requires not only strength but personal insight to resolve itself, which is the whole shtick to this genre. I think why it's important and why it stood out to me, it encapsulates this series' emphasis on inner growth as a requirement for advancement and cultivation. This point in the book, although I mentioned her growing in her affections for Linden and her growing as a person in previous books, this is a turning point that pushes her to reconcile her fear of isolation, the fear of losing Linden.

Slava:

Coming to grips with her mortality, I think, adds more depth to to her motivations. It's a part of the book that I had an emotional response to. I was like, oh, wow. Is this what Jonathan meant when he said that Yaron might leave in a couple of books? That bastard told me he was she was gonna leave, and what he meant was she's dead.

Slava:

So this moment in the book and in the series as a whole is where I had a very strong emotional response. Her quest to reach under Lord, I kinda saw as a parallel to her desire to remain close to Lindon and maintain their shared path, or maybe it's the maybe it's the reversed where because she wants to remain with Linden, she doesn't wanna be alone, and she has loved the journey so far. She feels a connection to this group, this motley crew, if you will, and so she has this desire to survive just like we talked about a few minutes ago, and to me that event by itself stood out from everything else. I I thought that was a fantastic, fantastic portion of the story. I think I mentioned this last episode, but it's worth mentioning again because this is the thing for me in this book that was the most fun to read.

Jonathan:

Can you dive into that and unpack it a little more for us? Like, why was this so touching for you? What is it about her that you really attached to as just as a reminder? And then how do you think that this plays out on a global scale in terms of, like, we see Ethan bring her specific cultivated food to try to help, you know, when this struggle's going on? You know, do you think that this will be something that Mercy can help with later?

Slava:

The first part is easy to answer. I identify with Yerin because of her spunk. She's sarcastic. She's spunky. She's able to survive on her own.

Slava:

She's kinda made her own path. She doesn't really give a crap about what people think about her. She has a goal in mind, and she goes for it. And that is how I see myself. My life has not been easy, and this is not a therapy session.

Slava:

I'm not gonna bore people with my story. Maybe. Those listeners who have been with us from the beginning know a little bit about, my life, and the reason I think I was able to survive my childhood was because I came with an f u attitude. Some people fight, some people fight, some people, you know, kinda fall into themselves, some people go into insane coping mechanisms, and by that I mean do they do drugs or they live, you know, a life that's self destructive, which often includes drugs. But for me, Yaron's persistence in her survival and her resolve, that's what I resonate with because I feel as I look back at my life, that's the only thing, the f you attitude, and I just gotta do what I have to do.

Slava:

I have to get to the next point in my life whether it's leaving the house, whether it's finding a job that allows me to leave the house and allows me to leave the chaos and the abuse, that drive accompanied with the sarcasm and, you know, kinda grumpiness of Erin that I love, that's what attaches me to her. Mhmm. And so when she's dying or I think she might die, that invoked that emotional response. Yeah. That's good.

Slava:

To your second question, if you can restate it, how does her survival impact the rest of the story?

Jonathan:

Yeah. What do you think that her survival, both in terms of, like, her friends trying to help her, and do you think that there's still a weakness that resolves even though she got to Underlord at the end of the book that she'll need to? Because there's 2 things that are going she's got a multistage struggle. Like, yes, she has a a lifeline issue, but that was actually exacerbated by the fact that she has a blood shadow who's sucking on her lifeline anyway. And so, like, okay.

Jonathan:

She got to Underlord, but she still has a blood shadow issue.

Slava:

Right.

Jonathan:

So Okay. So 2 part question, 2 part answer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Slava:

The first part, I think, and we'll find out in book 7, but I think this is another step in her growth as a character. Because she saw her friends come together and try to help her survive, did help her survive, she will be more confident in their reciprocity and their loyalty towards her. So some of that fear that she has of being alone and losing people might be abated or satiated, not a 100%, but I think this event where she saw her friends come together and rally around her will help her grow in that aspect. Now the second part of the question about the blood shadow, yes, she's under Lord. She'll have more control of it, but I don't think, this is Slava guessing, I don't think book 7 or 8 maybe will see a resolution to that.

Slava:

There might be more control that she gets of her blood shadow. There might be a way that she maybe even gets rid of the blood shadow, but I don't think that's happening in the next book despite how fast some of the character arcs and how fast some of the advancements for the characters happen in this book. I think that's one of those things that Will will keep with her for a while because it'll always be, like, a crucible of testing, if I can use a fancy term

Jonathan:

Yeah.

Slava:

For her. Right? So that's my answer. Interesting. And you can correct me or guide me or confuse me because you like to do that too.

Jonathan:

No. That's fine. Was it last book that the blood shadow, Yerin's talking to it? Yeah. And she goes, blah blah blah blah.

Jonathan:

When I say bark, you bark. And then the blood shadow just replies with, woof. Is that last book?

Slava:

I think so. It has to be last book. It wasn't the previous one.

Jonathan:

Yeah. It wasn't this one. Right? Yeah.

Slava:

And it wasn't this one.

Jonathan:

Yeah. Okay. So it's just interesting. Right? It's it's it's, intriguing even would be a a better a better way where, like, the blood shadow, I think, is at this crossroads, I guess, where it feels like it could be a big ally, but Yaren sees it as an enemy.

Jonathan:

It could be an ally, or it could be maybe just biding its time to take revenge on Yaren and and take it Yeah. Take her her lifeline. So it's kind of, to me, also a teetering between the life and death moment. Less now because she's an underlord, but it's still not dealt with. And, also, Ethan hasn't really given her I mean, he definitely gave her a gift, that he was saving for her, but he hasn't really found a solution to help her solve the problem per se, which I think is a little surprising to us because Ethan kinda has an uncanny ability to get whatever he needs when he needs it within reason.

Jonathan:

Although within reason is probably, like, ironic because he's

Slava:

It's not reasonable. Yeah.

Jonathan:

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So, anyway, yeah.

Jonathan:

Yaren, I I excited to see what happens with her, especially as we start to see sort of a convergence between the personal struggles that each of these characters has had and the universal stakes that are growing with dread gods and monarchs getting involved and factions. Next book, Unground King Tournament, is actually going to be another step in fulfillment from the original vision that Serial saw for the future that she showed Linden, because we're gonna see some of the clans or groups that Linden got to see. The 8 cloud or no. No. It's the the it's like the rainbow cloud empire and the 8 crew group clan.

Jonathan:

I'm slaughtering these names, but there's there's a bunch of them that he saw in book 1 in the vision that they will be at the tournament. We will finally get to see another step forward in terms of, like, oh, we've seen these folks before even though it was just in a, like, a very short paragraph future vision type ordeal.

Slava:

Yeah. I'm all looking forward to that.

Jonathan:

Backtracking a little bit. Did you have any reactions when Ethan split the teams up where Linden and Mercy went off when they were in the Night Wheel Valley, and then he and Orthos and Yering went off?

Slava:

Not really. I just thought Ethan being Ethan, he has some sort of plan in place, and this is subterfuge or something like that, but I didn't react to it in the moment going like, oh, what is this? And I didn't think about it beyond, ah, okay. Well, that's Ethan. Here here we go.

Jonathan:

Mhmm.

Slava:

I guess I thought something might happen, but nothing, like, grand came to fruition. Nothing extraordinary. So I was like, oh, okay. He split them up. That's just part of Ethan's little, machinations.

Slava:

He's read Robert Green's book on, you know, 33 rules of screwing with your team as you build them into monarchs, and there we go.

Jonathan:

Fair enough. Fair enough. I thought you were gonna say something about, Mercy and Linden, like, finally holding hands or confessing their love for one another.

Slava:

Yeah. I'm still on the fence as to my, you know, Slavic guesses

Jonathan:

Mhmm.

Slava:

What happens between the 3 of them, you know, romantically. Linden, Yerin, and Mercy. If I remember correctly, my prediction in the very beginning was that and this is based again on you telling me that Yaron leaves. Linden would somehow fall for Mercy. Mhmm.

Slava:

But now that Mercy is back with her family, I don't see that as an immediate option unless he grows, advances, and somehow she falls for him, and then, you know, her mom has to be like, oh, come on. Right? Like, not not this. I thought I was trying to get revenge on this stupid kid, and now he's dating my daughter. Mhmm.

Jonathan:

So I

Slava:

I can kinda see that happening, but the little moment where Yaron is dying or almost dying or maybe this was after she got better where Linden sees her, like, half naked, and he they both kinda have this, like, weird teenage reaction. I was like, okay. Oh, maybe not Mercy.

Jonathan:

It's all he needed was a little little slip of the nip.

Slava:

There you go. That's it's a 17 year old boy or a 20 year old man. Whatever. That's pretty much the same. 3 years don't make that much of a difference.

Jonathan:

Especially when you're Linden.

Slava:

Especially when you're Linden. So I'm still on the fence about my prediction here because I'm not reading ahead. I'm not doing any research like I've done with Stormlight Archives. Mhmm. This is solely book at a time.

Slava:

I'm waiting until the next book is in the schedule. And because of what I described a few minutes ago about me thinking in a moment that Eriny leaving is her dying, well, I know that's not the truth now. If you said it, it means she does leave at some point, like Orthos has left. Does she leave because of Mercy, or does she leave because the feelings for Linda are too strong? Who knows?

Slava:

So She

Jonathan:

could also just fall into the trap that she is convinced. You know how some characters, like, become convinced of their own lies or beliefs?

Slava:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

Even though that's not true for other people, they just act on them, that's another possibility.

Slava:

Okay. I'm looking forward to what happens there. I know it's kinda silly, but I I am actually looking forward to if there is a romantic arc between Lindon and Yerin.

Jonathan:

Mhmm.

Slava:

It could be something where, like, oh, they're young. They have these feelings. They don't know what to do with them, but eventually it just grows into a stronger and stronger friendship, or it could be the friendship that it is now that grows into a romantic relationship. But as I say that, I'm not sure that's where Will White is going. Like, I just don't see that being a main thing that happens.

Slava:

Six books in, there's not a lot of romance that goes on. There's not a lot of those elements to the story like there are in other animes or other books of this this genre of this nature. Yeah. Here, it seems to be more about these guys and girls, this crew advancing

Jonathan:

Right.

Slava:

In the sacred arts. So Right. As much as I think it's fun to speculate on that, probably not a big portion of the story or a big deal in the story.

Jonathan:

Fair enough. That leads me to another question for you as we wind this episode down. Got any hot takes? Hot takes? About literally anything.

Jonathan:

Yaren, Mercy, Linden, Aethan, Orthos, Kelsea, the uncrowned king tournament, the dread gods, the akura clan, Dross.

Slava:

You know, I can't think of any. Like, a hot take. I had some hot takes from the previous books we read.

Jonathan:

Oh, I know. And so does the audience.

Slava:

And I think one of my hot takes has to do with something about the romantic relationship or lack thereof between Lindon and Yaren and Mercy? Mhmm. I can't think of any.

Jonathan:

One of my hot takes is I think that Will is going to have a big moment with Ethan where he gets his comeuppance because he's never really gotten that yet. Now granted, he did have a really difficult moment with Lindon when he lost his arm in book 2 or 3. Other than that, Aethan hasn't even though he got, you know, dethroned, I think that White is saving him, like, saving a chess piece. Right? Like, can't wait to play this.

Jonathan:

And I think we're all gonna enjoy it, even though we like Ethan.

Slava:

I'll buy that.

Jonathan:

We also don't don't really know if we can fully trust him because we're not sure what he's doing.

Slava:

I mean, I don't think he's an enemy, but I think his machinations have caused problems, like with Linden losing his arm. Yep. He is so singularly focused that he doesn't think about these consequences, and he admits to it

Jonathan:

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Slava:

Than 2 books ago, I think. Alright. I like your hot take. I'll I'll second the motion for that hot take.

Jonathan:

You second the motion?

Slava:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

Alright. Well, bring some hot takes for later for next episode when we have our guest episode, and we'll see what happens there.

Slava:

Sounds good. But before we leave, Jonathan, let's rate the book. So our usual rating system, for those who don't know, is 1 through 5, 5 being perfect, 4 being was good, but I might change this, 1 being hot garbage, and we usually do world characters plot. So for me, this book was 5 across. Same.

Slava:

5 all across.

Jonathan:

But that leads me to a different question, and I look. I picked the series. I love the world. I love the characters. I love the plot.

Jonathan:

I love the the rising tension, bloopers at the end of the books. Man, it's so fun. Just a great time. But if you were to pick 3 words to describe the book Slava, let's add to this, little rating system, what three words would you use to describe the book where it's not a sentence, just 3 different words?

Slava:

I would say emotional. Growth and struggle would be the the 2 other words. Struggle because we we get more of the internal struggle of Yerin or specifically her fear of losing people. That's more profound in this book, I think. Growth because we do see both of them advance.

Slava:

We see both of them internally process their growth thus far. And I wouldn't be able to give you an example right now, but what I came away with after finishing the book, I was like, oh, wow. We got more in-depth we got more clarity into the internal struggles of each character, and then we saw them, you know, jump to Underlord. That sets them up in the next book to be more advanced as characters personally too. Mhmm.

Slava:

Now you gotta tell me your three words. I I showed you mine. You show me yours.

Jonathan:

It's a weird way to say that, but okay. I'd say ambitious. I think that White tried to tackle something pretty big here, bringing everyone up to Underlord, because the more powerful people get, the more difficult I think the writing begets. He's also setting up some sort of tournament next book, which is pretty cool, but also could be difficult to, give us a good payoff with. Another one, would be intense.

Jonathan:

I think the book was pretty action packed and difficult for the for the characters. Maybe even my third one is unrelenting because of the pressure that charity encourages other people to put on Linden. And it's not just Linden. Right? It's Linden and his friends.

Jonathan:

They're just constantly being battered and and and beaten. So it'd be ambitious, intense, and unrelenting. So if you want a book that's ambitious, intense, and unrelenting as well as

Slava:

Emotional and shows people struggling and growing out of those struggles. What was your third one? That was 2. No. Emotional growth and struggles.

Jonathan:

Yeah. Then this is the book. Give it a shot. I'm not sure it does really well as a stand alone. I've never met someone who just read this book.

Jonathan:

I think you could still get into it, but I think there'd be a lot of questions.

Slava:

Yeah. I'd never recommend anybody read any of these books as stand alones. I would just challenge them to start with 1 and trudge through them if they really feel like it's gonna be a trudge, but for me, this one sits at top 2 out of the series so far. I think even this would be the number 1 if I was really forced to think about it. Alright.

Slava:

What would you say? Was this, like, a favorite or this, man, it's one of the series and I like it, but there's one that really is worth waiting for or that it has come before?

Jonathan:

I think it's top 5. Ghost water, I think, is my favorite. I think Black Flame's my second favorite.

Slava:

Okay.

Jonathan:

I think it sits in top 5 because it's kind of a pivotal moment both for the team, for the individuals, and the world is transitioning. So, yeah, say it's top 5.

Slava:

And with that, I think we have landed this, flying cloud fortress of solitude.

Jonathan:

That's a lot of words. Too many words, Strauss. Thanks for joining us, guys. But before you vanish back to reality from the Nightwing Valley, drop us a quick review on your favorite podcast platform. It keeps our quest alive and helps other book lovers find their way here.

Jonathan:

And take a

Slava:

moment to rate the show on your favorite podcast platform and share it with your book loving friends. We'll see you next time on SideQuest.