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Your guided tour of the world of growth, performance marketing, customer acquisition, paid media, and affiliate marketing.
We talk with industry experts and discuss experiments and their learnings in growth, marketing, and life.
Time to nerd out, check your biases at the door, and have some fun talking about data-driven growth and lessons learned!
Welcome to another edition of the Always Be Testing podcast with your
host, Ty De Grange. Get a guided tour of the world of growth, performance
marketing, customer acquisition, paid media, and affiliate marketing.
We talk with industry experts and discuss experiments and their learnings in growth,
marketing, and life. Time to nerd out, check your biases at the door, and
have some fun talking about data driven growth and lessons learned.
Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Always Be Testing podcast. I'm your
host, Ty DeGrange, and I am really excited to sit down and talk with
Amy Kreider. Hi, Amy. Hi. How are you? I'm doing well. I'm doing well
hanging out here in Austin, Texas. The weather has been one
hundred degrees most of the summer, as you may know. And, it started to cool
down, but it seems to just kinda keep hitting us with these early fall hundred degree days,
which is a little bit of a surprise, which is not rad. I feel you. Richmond,
Virginia is very humid, in the summers, which we have come to learn since we
moved down here a couple years ago. So Hopefully, you get some of that nice fall weather coming soon.
Hoping. Fall weather, pumpkin spice, pumpkin everything. Yeah. I
don't hate that. I'm I'm excited for all the things that are fall as much as we can get them now. I think we're
kinda here in in Texas trying to channel as much as much of it as possible.
Well, I'm super excited to dive in with you, and I think our audience will be as well. Amy, for
those of you who don't know, has a ton of experience in affiliate marketing. She's a great
practitioner, both on the b two b side, which will be fun to dive into as well as d two c
ecom retail. So super excited to to dive in there and share. We've worked
with great clients like Square, DocuSign, Squarespace, a lot of knowledge, and
and I'm excited to dive in. So really appreciate you joining. I'm excited. Yeah.
Maybe just by starting off, tell us a little bit about your background. Yeah. Definitely.
So like a a lot of people in in this industry, my
entryway into affiliate was by chance. I grew up I played soccer,
and I got the opportunity to play soccer at Wake Forest, where I majored in
communications. And I thought I would stick with that sports world, do something
in sports, most likely sports marketing of some kind. And so after
college, I went down to Florida and I got to work, on
in TV marketing. So Fox Sports, Sun Sports, very glamorous, really
cool. And, and I thought, wow, this is what this is what I'm going to be doing. I mean, as life always
throws us curveballs, I got in, my old coach from Wake Forest
was up in Philadelphia working with the women's professional soccer team there and
told me to come on up and try out. I did not make the team, but I got
offered a job. And so my sort of real working world started in the
professional sports, doing everything, marketing, sales, a little
bit of, of everything from there. And my boss ended
up finding a digital marketing company in Philadelphia called
DMI Partners. And she said, you should come work here. I was able to move
into the city, and that was where I first got my exposure to
affiliate marketing. DMI specialized in lead generation. And so I started
by building out campaigns. I was placing pixels, finding partners
to run, managing budgets. So it was really a great opportunity for me to
see what affiliate was from really the foundation of tracking
partners, who they are, and, of course, the lead generation quality is
really important because you're not paying for sales. So, it was really important to kind
of understand the strategy there. I was with DMI for five years, and
I just learned to love affiliate. It almost was like a puzzle to me, sort of figuring out
what the right mix was and what to do. And I wanted to continue to work
in the in the industry, and I but I wanted to work directly with clients and get
more involved in their strategy. So in twenty sixteen, I was lucky
to join the acceleration partners team, and I got to work with amazing
brands across all verticals, including the the b two b clients that you
mentioned earlier in my intro. And then I got the opportunity also to join our
global accounts team and work with clients across all regions. So really
getting exposure to the strategy, not just in the US, but what
does it look like in APAC in Europe and even markets within Europe. And all of this just
continued to sort of unravel my interest in why I love affiliate
marketing and, of course, the client services piece, and just working with people.
And I was there for six years. I ended my career at EP on, as an
account director on their global accounts team. And the timing was just right for my
family last May where we decided that I would step away from working
world to travel and spend time with my daughters. So I
just am coming off of sort of eighteen months of doing all of that, an
amazing experience, lots of challenges, but would never regret it. And now as I'm
reentering the industry, I'm coming back consulting for companies.
So which has been a yeah. It's been amazing that I've gotten to use just a lot of experience
and skills, that I've gained across, you know, the multiple roles and companies that I've been
at. I love it. How old are your daughters? Four and a half and two and a half. I'm in the thick of it. I
think you and I are in different ways, with a three year old and a
seven month old. So it's awesome. Yes. I'm excited to hear. What what was that
like taking that time off? I mean, I know we're gonna get to it, but I'm ready to jump right into that part.
It was hard to take the leap. It was scary. You think about what does that mean then
coming back? Am I stuck to that? And I just I listened to
a lot of part I'm a big self personal development, self development.
And finally taking that leap knowing it was sort of the right opportunity in
life. Windows can close. And so we took that. We got to go
see so many new places. We traveled, saw out west in the US and got to go to Europe
for a couple of months. So it it opened my eyes to a lot of patience. To being honest,
there there were definitely challenges and struggles, but I think we're instilling in our girls a sense
of adventure, which I love to see. They love to pack a suitcase now. So I
love it. What's kind of the self development, or was there some development books or podcasts
or experts or or people that really influenced you or kind of shed light in areas that really
helped you? Yeah. One of the biggest ones I love, Jay Shetty is
sort of my personal development mentor in a sense. But he had
done an interview with Gwyneth Paltrow, and she talked about how life is just a bunch of mini
experiments that we should do, whether it's a day, a week, a month, a year. And
there's really not a lot of risk. The worst case was it didn't work out, and I
needed to go back and find a job. And so I think just hearing that gave me that
sense of like, okay, I can't mess this up too much. And it's a risk worth taking.
Takes a little bit of the pressure off, doesn't it? And it's nice to clarify. That's so
cool. And and I love that you did some traveling with your girls. Can I, what was some
of the maybe highlights of the west the west, part of the US?
Oh, man. We got to explore a lot of Utah. Arches National Park,
Zion, just beautiful out there. I think one of the things, it's
easy to say, oh, we wanna go somewhere outside of the US. There's so many beautiful places
inside of our country, to see. Yeah. And, yeah, it was
just incredible landscape. I love that. I feel the same way. I feel the same way. Every time
we go somewhere unique or different, there's there's a lot of it that we haven't touched yet.
So it's it's kind of exciting. Yeah. So, you know, back to some of the
affiliate account management, experience that you've had, which has been extensive. When
you think about affiliate account management and you think about, like, best practice, What
are some of the things that come to mind for you in the world of affiliate marketing and affiliate client
management? I think two things. The first being relationships.
You know, what I've loved about affiliate is it's not transactional.
It is important to get to know the partners that you're working with, to understand their
goals as much as you're understanding your clients' goals. Because at the end of the day, it is a
partnership and we want both parties to be successful.
And there are just such amazing people in this industry. So that was really the first, and I
think that's important. And the second is using data. I'm a
math person. I almost majored in math. I'm a math person. I'm a puzzle person. But
I think one of the things I really learned in my experience is that you gotta
look at the numbers. You gotta analyze it. And that is what is your best support for
knowing what to do for your clients, what campaigns to run, what commissions
to pay, what pay placements to run. All of that is just can be really leaned
on by data. I love that. Definitely resonates. You kinda touched on the
puzzle twice so far. It's such such a kind of cool beacon for you, and I feel like it's a
good one to hone in on. What are some of those things that kinda need your eyes to light up in
affiliate marketing and drew you to the channel and gets you excited about it. And it sounds
like perhaps something to do with that, but I'd love to hear your thoughts. I love
that there's not one path to get to a goal. So you could
have two clients that are in the same category and have similar
goals, but they have a different product, a different target audience. They may have a different budget
to work with. So everything sort of required this different fit. How do, you know,
how do all the different partner types fit together? What's the contribution from certain partner types?
So I just felt like there was different challenges. So across all the clients I've
worked with, I never really been able to say, oh, this worked with this one, so it's gonna work with you. And
that is what I think excites me and keeps me going when it
comes to to the strategy. I would have to agree. It's, it's so many layers
and so many channels within a within a channel and so many options and campaigns
and and levers and mediums to pull that it truly finds it. And there's
always something new. It's such an evolving channel. I mean, you have your foundational
players, but since I've been in the industry, I mean, there's new ways, influencers
popping up, brand to brand. There's just new partners. Buy now, pay later came in. So
it's just, like, constantly learning and figuring out how do they fall in the mix. And
so I just I love that evolution of the approach too. Yeah. I love
it. Couldn't agree more with you know, you've had a lot of experience in b to
b, enterprise SaaS, innovative companies, also direct to consumer
e comm, retail. Maybe starting with the consumer side, when you
look under the hood of a program, what do you typically see as
kind of that the biggest need of improvement or optimization? One of them
is commission rates. I think to say we can pay all the partners or here's
our standard commission rate. I think there's so many unique ways to pull
different levers with different partners even to say we're gonna pay all loyalty this
rate. I mean, they have different capabilities. They have different targeting. So
and I think there's a lot of opportunity to be really strategic, in
commission rates within a program. I think there's always an opportunity to get
more out of existing partners. We talked about the evolution of new partners coming into the
space, but also the partnerships that have maybe been in a program for a long time
are constantly evaluating their capabilities and improving how they
can target their readers or their audience. And so I just think having
those always on conversations to optimize those partnerships
is a great opportunity for clients to just sort of grow and and
align. Love it. And then, conversely, love to hear your perspective having worked on some
really great enterprise b to b brands. What are some of the learnings there? And
when you kind of assess a program, what is often the the need or the or the
a what we need to look at, but there you just have to be a little bit more
I don't wanna use the word strategic, but targeted in terms of which publishers
you're you're using. The same set of foundational publishers
when it comes to retail clients is not gonna necessarily work for b two b. It's
a different target audience. So finding the niche of publishers that
can, you know, have business decision makers is, I think, one of the biggest ones I
learned when I took over my first b two b program. There's
also different considerations in the sales cycle. So how you're promoting,
a lot more research based sites and comparison sites. You know, companies are
looking to understand that when there are a lot of options out there and they're making a decision for
their business. So those are probably the biggest two when it comes to the differences
with b to b than b to c. Yeah. And maybe kind of broad, but also
b to b leaning on this question. How have you seen the partner types evolve and
change? It feels like there's been you know, in some ways, some things don't necessarily
maybe evolve in a in a affiliate or partner marketing, but in other ways, they certainly do. And I'd love to hear
your perspective on maybe how some of those changes you've witnessed in your career
and maybe specifically to to b two b and part the partners themselves. Yeah. I think
for b two b at Serted, there are a lot, you know, content sites were a good place to
start. You have a lot of the small business sites, and then, of course, you have
your comparison partners. I think in today's, it's going to evolve a
lot into potentially some influencer. You know, you have
LinkedIn. You have a lot of people posting about business, about personal. So it's a
lot more of a social platform or evolving into one. So I can very
much see that as an opportunity for business in their affiliate programs, almost
kinda taking that to the influencer extent. And then also brand to brand is
another, I think, emerging channel. It's been talked about on
the retail side or b to c side. But with b to b, it's a great lever
and opportunity because you're able to look at more of a complimentary product or
service that would have the similar target audience as you. You know, with b to
b, you're looking at, okay, what size business? Not every business has the same needs either. So
business may be fifty or less employees or, you know, fifty to two hundred, two hundred
plus, like different sizes have different needs. So if you can find another company with
a similar target business as yours, doing a cross promotion,
and that I think will be another great opportunity to come for the b to b
vertical. Yeah. I I love that commentary. I feel like the the e commerce
content is has grown and exploded. There's so much interest there, and that just keeps happening.
You see the the influencer opportunity continue to grow, and it feels like
a little bit of this, you know, divide between consumer and enterprise, I feel like, is
starting to chip away a little bit. It sounds like, you know, you maybe you've seen that
happening a little bit as well. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Very cool. You kind
of highlighted some of the the difference differences that you see in, you know, the b to b
affiliate marketing programs that are run well and firing on all cylinders. And when you when
you kinda think through, like, what are the characteristics of a great you know, b to b affiliate
program just to kinda take it a step further, what are some of the things that you like to see
generally speaking, noting it's it's gonna be a little bit different? I think
if for a successful b to b, and I think, you know, you can run into this with, we you
know, b to b or b to c. But for B2B, I think brand and product
awareness and competitors are two big things to sort of think through as a company when you're
looking at is affiliate the direction that we should go or not.
You know, if you have a really strong brand awareness about what your product
is, what it does, and you don't have a lot of competitors, most
consumers are probably if they know exactly what what you do, what your product is, and there's no one
else to go to, the likelihood that affiliate may be as incremental as you think,
you know, will be could be a challenge. I'm not saying it will be. It could be. I have
seen very successful programs that have proven
these points wrong. So, you know, it's not, again, not an answer across the
board. But if you're launching a new product or a new service or you
have competitors, you're you're a business that's coming into a space where there are competitors,
affiliate can prove really, really valuable because, again, you're going on content sites,
education to decision makers, the comparisons for how does
our product compare to this product and the offerings and the pricing and all that. A lot of
that b to b we found is, you know, is a different decision cycle. So unlike
shopping a pair of yoga pants, there's not quite as much research going into it. You know,
they know the brand and but with when it comes to, like, software
that a company is gonna be using, they wanna know exactly, like, okay. What are all the features I'm getting
and what level? And if there's a competitor, that comparison site is just invaluable.
And to get on there on a performance basis is, you know, a great way to go.
So I think that's definitely two considerations, I would say, as a as
a company Yeah. To take a look at. For sure. And and, obviously, with,
you know, the theme of the pod always be testing, and you kind of alluded to it, you know, in the,
Gwyneth Paltrow discussion earlier around the value of doing things as
experiments. But, you know, in terms of maybe some of the career learnings
before some of the life learnings we'll get to, but would love to hear maybe what tests
or what learnings or what experiments that you felt were maybe super interesting, maybe
counterintuitive in your career over the years, whether whether it's, like, personal
career learnings or or actual campaign and client learnings from from
some of the various campaigns and tests run on on affiliate partner marketing? Yeah. I
think broadly, I think saying, how do we test this
but put it within guardrails that you feel comfortable? Right? It's like trying something
new, but having that cushion to say, like, okay. Well, we won't go bankrupt because of
this test. Right? So a lot of times, the situation with clients and what I've seen,
especially on certain comparison sites, testing a CPC. Right?
It's like, okay, that's gonna feel uncomfortable. Right? Because there's more risk on the client side than
there's going to be ensuring we're getting a return there. But again, kind
of two things, leaning back on the data, right, to do that with a partner that you you
have some information on. Okay. How does how do they convert? What is the quality
like? And to say, well, we can just improve and get more if we're able to find the right
CPC. Then also saying, you know what, let's just make it up a five k budget or a ten k
budget. So then no matter what, like, we have to feel comfortable if that does not
back into what we want as the end goal that we have that guardrail. Yep. And then it's like, you know what?
We learned from that and what didn't work and why didn't it work. I think being able to
reflect on the things that don't work is even more valuable than than
reflecting on the things that do work. It's, you know, replicating. But you can gain some really
insightful learnings, not just, oh, we should never do that again. Absolutely. And But
asking, how can we do that differently next time to make it work?
Absolutely. And and documenting that, institutional knowledge and importing that into
the next test and experiment is is such a a great great way of thinking. I
love that. It's funny you mentioned, like, the flat fee. It seems like I don't know what
you've seen, but I I imagine is it have you seen it where that CPC or that
flat fee will actually depending upon the partner and the client, does that sometimes outperform
that everyone's favorite cost per purchase or cost per lead model?
Does that happen? Yeah. It absolutely can. Again, I think
there's not a tried and true saying, like, this will work for you, but I've seen
with well known brands, especially in those comparison. I mean, when it when you
change positions within those articles, it can start to really perform
and take off. So it's sort of finding that that sweet spot both for the client
and for the publisher. Yeah. I like it. I think you talked about this a little bit, but circling back
to assessing if a b to b brand is ready. I
am I'm kind of curious to maybe double click on that a little bit. You talked about kind of
brand recognition and competitors. Are there other factors that you look at
when you kind of assess a b to b brand and affiliate marketing to say, hey. Does this channel
really make sense for them? I'm curious to know know your perspective more on that.
One thing I I've actually run into is sort of the I mean, this could happen again for b to c,
but the reviews of the service and the product can play an impact on how successful.
Again, the decision making is a is more in-depth. I think I could say that confidently
than maybe a b to c. Now if you're buying something like refrigerator, I'm sure that consumer is doing just
as much research. But when you're you know, for these businesses, they're gonna
look. And if you have bad reviews on your site about your service or your
product, that is going to play a big role in
in how you convert with you know, they're looking at the affiliate content,
but then they're also gonna do a little bit more due diligence. So I have seen brands where it's not
just going to plug a hole. Right? That needs to be good. So sort of saying,
look internally, let's make sure our product and our site and everything is is buttoned up, and then we can take it to
affiliate. So in that case, it wouldn't matter if you are the only one in your space. If you don't have good reviews,
it's probably not going to going to work out. Yeah. I love that. I recall,
I think it was Sean Frank on the Nine Figure Operators podcast talks a lot about that
and prioritizing that over most things, really having a killer
product before you're really, you know, over a certain NPS, certain number of reviews, certain number
of, types of reviews before you can really, fully
distribute or or stand certainly stand up a brand new performance marketing channel. Yeah. It's a really
good call. Yeah. And I think across the board, the clients who
are see success, especially earlier on, are the clients that are willing to test. If they
have a little bit of budget, they're willing to pay for a flat fee or test this
article or move the, you know, commission up to a cost per
clicker. And I'm not saying you have to do that across the board, but they're they're at least willing to entertain those
ideas and test because with more testing, you get more learning. Yeah. Right? And so the clients that
are willing to do that a little bit more from the start are probably gonna
see quicker success because they'll know what works, what doesn't work, and how to optimize against it.
I love it. Yeah. Are there any ways you've seen, maybe tests
structured a way that you really like or maybe some, like, other kind of
don't do don't do this kind of thing, like, myths or things like that that you've maybe found
out? Because I think the experiment thing from my view is is so central
to what we hear a lot of, and I I love this concept. And I think kind of,
like, are there ways that you maybe seen them set up right or maybe set up not so effectively?
I mean, I think to set them up right when you don't set them up right, you haven't used at
least some kind of data. It could be a new partner. Right? But having a a conversation with the
partner to understand what to expect. You know, have you done this with
another brand, and how did it perform, and what can we expect in terms of clicks? You
know, great way to also kind of work is that the putting some of the onus on the
publisher to say, okay. Let's guarantee some click. We have to guarantee certain number of views or certain
number of clicks in order to fulfill the campaign so that we know, okay, it's not just gonna be an
article. And it may have a really strong click through rate or conversion rate, but it barely gets seen. Right?
So they need to do some promotion on their end to get it in front of maybe more on
social or out in an email, but I was like, something that gives it some additional push.
But I think that's where you're gonna find your best success is that you've done the due
diligence upfront. In terms of the the structure performance, you're
sort I think the upfront work is where it's at. I love it. Yeah. And then,
so awesome. I love the soccer experience and the athlete experience. I'd love to hear any
any highlights that you recall from your your playing days?
So many. So many highlights. I think
I would say the one thing I love about, like, my soccer is I feel like sometimes in
affiliate, I feel I played midfield. So you always had to kinda see. I see it when I drive too. Right? You
have to see the opportunity and just looking big picture, but also being able to narrow. So
I think that experience has helped me sort of continue to go, like, zoom out, zoom in. Zoom out, zoom
in because your head always has to be on a swivel is what I said. But Yep. No. I
I was am always forever grateful in my soccer because it took me to a great
university, and I wish I had just one one highlight I could share. But I have gotten to
play against some of the women's national team players, which is always fun to to see. That's amazing.
That's very cool. It's quite an accomplishment. Are you think that your daughters might be interested
in soccer? Are you gonna encourage it? You know what? I'm very mindful of that
and not pushing them to do it because I did it. But I think I almost have a backwards
perspective of it because growing up, it took so much of my time. And
as a parent now, I'm like, man, my parents were very dedicated, and I now have
much better appreciation for how much time they put into supporting
me than what I did. Not that I wouldn't do that for my own daughters, but I'm like,
I'll let them sort of figure out if this is what they really want to do. I don't need to push
them to do it. And, you know, just with my own
personal development and understanding who I am in questioning that, I get the opportunity to use that with my
daughters. And, you know, I don't know if they'll both of them have very different personalities, and I don't know
if they both will be good will want to do team sports. They may want to do more of an individual,
which, I'm really excited to see them kinda grow into who they they are, but I'm not pushing it per
se. My oldest is playing soccer right now, and she basically plays for the popsicle
at the end. I love it. Yeah. And so young, and they can try so many new
things and who knows what they'll be interested in. But I like the open mindedness about that and,
certainly can identify. Probably a good segue, you know, becoming a mom
is no small feat, no small change in your life and certainly
influenced how you navigate career and family and balance it all, which, is
certainly not easy and, not something I can I can understand,
although I see it, through the eyes of my my wife and our family? How did you navigate that
personally and professionally? I think becoming a parent in general
just gives you a lot of perspective on what's valuable. So a couple of
things that come to my mind, time is valuable.
After becoming a mom, prioritization at work became a huge interest of
mine. So how do I prioritize projects? I can't do it all. I'm not going to work
until 08:00 at night, so I need to be better at planning out
my day. And if I have too much on my plate, being able to say, okay. What deserves my
attention today? What can be pushed to tomorrow? What needs to be pushed to next week? What needs to be
delegated? So all of that became a huge interest of mine, and I still
love anything around prioritization today. People are
valuable. So I think I was able to find a better balance. I'm it may have
been the sports in me, but I was very hyper focused in terms of,
like, get the job done. Get the job done. And as soon as I became a mom, I feel like I got a little
bit a lot better, at understanding the personal
lives of myself and of the people on my team. So if something came up, it
just gave me that perspective that, you know what? You need to take time, take time. That is more
important. We are not, I remember one of my bosses saying, like, we're not
heart surgeons here. You know, like, we can push something back, if
your if your family needs you or you need to be somewhere else, you know, do that. And, it
was a lot more respectful and understanding. And then lastly, I think the personal development at
AP, I got introduced to it before I was a mom, and I I liked it. It was interesting. It
got me going. But I think as soon as I became a mom, really looking at being the best version of
myself and being vulnerable and being able to say, oh, I'm
not strong at this. I'm really good at this, and let's work on my strengths, you know,
and not forget my weaknesses and but not harp on them. And so it just gave me a lot of
perspective into myself, but also time and people. Yeah. I love that. What a I
mean, so much in there. So many learnings professionally, personally.
That's phenomenal. I I'm I'm loving every bit of this and appreciate it. Yeah. And I'm
sure as a parent, you can understand the value of sleep. Right? Now we we really
appreciate that. That's not as work based, but I whenever I can get sleep, I'm like, oh,
this is the best. It's, it's it's amazing how much it helps all areas
of life and, couldn't agree more. This has been amazing, Amy. I really
appreciate you. And and I think also like, you know, in your consulting now, you know,
you, you, you're able to strike that balance. You're, you're solving big
a more about that. Are you feeling like the balance is there? It's giving you that right mix that you've you've kinda
wanted? Yeah. So I think the perspective of being home with my
girls for the past year and a half and coming back, I I had to think
really hard about what works for us and our family, not just what is everyone
else doing or what's expected of me. And I think there's a lot of pressure and, you know, to
just go back to what's comfortable. And I was very grateful to have some
previous coworkers and people that I've worked with reach out and share their
experiences with with me. So, again, just the people in the industry. And it just felt
like the right balance. I'm able to make my hours and my schedule, but
even more so, I love that I get to work on projects of all different
scales and across all my skill sets. So from training and development
to account strategy, to best practices with client services. And so
it's not that I'm going back and I'm honing in on one. I've loved every piece of my journey in
affiliate. And so I get to do that in different projects, that I'm working
on right now. Perfect. I love it, Amy. And for folks wanting to get in touch with you, what
what is the best way to find you and reach out? Probably LinkedIn would be the
best. Yeah. Beautiful. So nice to have you. So nice to chat and learn and and
dive in as always. I really appreciated it. Thank you for having me. I've loved getting getting to
chat b to b and and life in general. Always great. Absolutely. Thanks,
Amy. Thanks so much.