Can the interests of ethnic minority voters be properly represented by right-wing parties? With Albie Amankona and Nels Abbey

Can the interests of ethnic minority voters truly be represented by right-wing parties? This episode dives into one of the most polarising questions in modern politics, demonstrating how to navigate deep ideological divides and find common ground for constructive change.

Welcome to the latest episode of The Bridge; A Disagreeing Well Podcast from University College London and Students' Union UCL, designed to arm you with the tools needed to navigate the trickiest conversations. Hosted by UCL student Tara Constantine, this episode tackles the complex intersection of identity and political alignment. Our aim isn't just to land on an answer, but to dissect the techniques for having truly productive discussions that push boundaries instead of shutting them down, even when dealing with highly sensitive topics.

Tara leads a compelling discussion with two political commentators, each bringing a sharp, contrasting view: 

• Albie Amankona argues that there's no monopoly on values like fiscal discipline, respecting tradition, patriotism, or strong defences. He suggests that ethnic minority voters can indeed find their interests aligned with right-wing parties based on these shared principles. 
• Nels Abbey challenges this perspective, delving into the historical context and lived experiences that complicate the representation of ethnic minority interests within right-wing political frameworks. His arguments highlight the deep-seated issues that often prevent genuine alignment. 

Our resident UCL expert mediator, Dr Melanie Garson, guides the conversation by focussing on a critical mediation technique: separating interests from positions. Melanie works to help Albie and Nels articulate their core interests beyond their stated political positions, revealing potential pathways for understanding and collaboration that might otherwise remain hidden. This technique is crucial for moving past sticking points and exploring what truly matters to each party.

Key takeaways from this episode:  

• Distinguishing interests from positions: Learn to identify the core needs and desires (interests) that underpin stated viewpoints (positions), a powerful technique for unlocking seemingly intractable disagreements. 
• Finding common ground in ideological divides: Witness how a skilled mediator can reframe a polarising debate to reveal shared goals and potential areas for collaborative vision, even when fundamental beliefs differ. 
• Embracing disagreement as progress: Understand that true progress isn't always about achieving total consensus, but about deeply understanding the various perspectives and using that insight for constructive change. 

Listen now to understand this key debate and develop your abilities for richer, more meaningful conversations.

This production was led by our student presenters, Lea Hofer and Tara Constantine, who are participants on Students’ Union UCL’s Impartial Chairs Programme. Find out more about the programme and how to apply if you are a student - visit Impartial Chairs Programme.

This is a Research Podcasts production for UCL.

Episode Credits
Presenter: Tara Constantine, UCL Impartial Chair
Guests: Albie Amankona and Nels Abbey
Producer and editor: Research Podcasts
Music: The Investigation by Pixabay
Artwork: Mayuko Yamaguchi, UCL undergraduate student

Further Reading and resources  
Abbey, N. (2019) Think Like a White Man: A Satirical Guide to Conquering the World . . . While Black
UK in a Changing Europe. (2024) Minorities report: The attitudes of Britain’s ethnic minority population. London: UK in a Changing Europe.
Conservatives Against Racism for Equality (CARFE). 

Creators and Guests

Host

Dr Melanie Garson

Melanie has been teaching on international conflict resolution and international security at UCL since 2010. She provides practical insights and thought leadership for policymakers across the full spectrum of cyber policy, tech geopolitics, and defence innovation challenges. Melanie is an accredited mediator and regularly provides commentary on geopolitics and tech in podcasts, webinars and at major media outlets including Bloomberg, BBC, Sky, CNBC, CNN, Fox News, France 24, and DeutscheWelle.

Guest

Albie Amankona

Broadcaster & Financial Analyst

Guest

Nels Abbey

Nels Abbey is an author, broadcaster and the founder of Uppity: the Intellectual Playground. His latest book is The Hip-Hop MBA: Lessons in Cut-Throat Capitalism From The Moguls of Rap

What is The Bridge: a Disagreeing Well podcast?

The Bridge: a Disagreeing Well podcast from University College London and Students' Union UCL tackles some of the most hotly debated issues of our time and provides practical techniques to bridge the divide between conflicting views. Each episode, our student hosts Lea Hofer and Tara Constantine, along with expert UCL mediator Dr. Melanie Garson, dive into a polarising question with informed and passionate guests with contrasting views. Tune in to better understand these critical debates, and equip yourself with the skills to have more meaningful conversations. Find out more at https://www.ucl.ac.uk/about/the-bridge

DW 1.2 Ethnic Minority Voters

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Ethnic minority voters, right-wing parties, fiscal discipline, cultural factors, social policy, economic growth, immigration, integration, race relations, political representation, Conservative Party, Labour Party, Green Party, supply-side reforms, cost of living.

SPEAKERS

Melanie Garson, Albie Amankona, Nels Abbey, Tara Constantine

Tara Constantine 00:03

Hello and welcome to The Bridge; A Disagreeing Well Podcast from University College London, that tackles some of the most hotly debated issues of our time and provides us with the tools and techniques we need to disagree about them better. Communicating effectively with people whose views are different from ours is hard, but there's never been a more important time to do just that. But how can we have more fruitful conversations that navigate rather than end in conflict? This is the question our podcast is seeking to answer. I'm Tara Constantine, a student at UCL, and your host for today's episode, in which we're asking the question, can the interests of ethnic minority voters be properly represented by right wing parties?

Albie Amankona 00:49

I do not think that there is a monopoly on views like fiscal discipline, on views like respecting tradition, on views like believing family is important, on being patriotic, on believing that we should have strong defenses, live within our means, classic conservative principles. I do not think that white people have a monopoly on thought or diversity. That is born out in what we have seen with lots of ethnic minority people getting to very top and senior positions within the Conservative Party.

Nels Abbey 01:23

The moderate wing of the Conservative Party, the more moderate wing of the Conservative Party of the last 14 years, did more to promote ethnic minorities into high position of politics than possibly any other organisation in the history of Britain, actually, barring nobody whatsoever. But the problem that we then had was that far too often that actual diversity was pursuant to bigoted outcomes. For example, if I am too strident in my perspective today, I could find myself stripped of my British citizenship.

Tara Constantine 01:53

Recent elections in both the US and the UK have revealed surprising shifts to the right in the ethnic minority vote, challenging long held assumptions about political loyalty. The US saw historic shifts in Latin American and black male votes, while the UK saw its first Indian Prime Minister for the Conservative Party. What's causing these shifts to the right for ethnic minorities, historically viewed as left leaning, what cultural, social and economic factors are at play, and can ethnic minority voters be properly represented by right wing parties? Joining us to discuss this are Nels Abbey, writer, broadcaster and author of Think Like a White Man, a satirical guide to conquering the world, while black. And Albie Amankona, broadcaster and co-founder of Conservatives Against Racism for equality. Before we bring in our guests, I'd like to introduce you to Dr Melanie Garson, also from UCL, and our resident expert mediator, who teaches mediation and negotiation techniques. Welcome, Melanie.

Melanie Garson 03:04

Hi, Tara, how are you?

Tara Constantine 03:06

Melanie, too many of us today are not so good at disagreeing well, what are you looking to get out of the discussion today?

Melanie Garson 03:14

Well, today is an interesting discussion, because from what I believe, both of our discussants have met before, and they've discussed some of these issues before. So what I'm going to be looking for not only for productive discussion, but actually, I'm really interested to see how much of previous discussions or previous assumptions actually come into informing today's conversation, and are they able to put that aside a little to really hear what they might have to say today. What are you looking for Tara?

Tara Constantine 03:48

I think I'm looking forward to having a, hopefully a more nuanced discussion that really takes into account the lived experiences of an often ignored demographic of voters. I think we should dive in. Welcome Nels. Welcome Albie. Nels, the question we're asking today is, can the interests of ethnic minority voters be properly represented by right wing parties? Can you kick us off by briefly telling us your position and how you came to hold it please.

Nels Abbey 04:17

Can these views, can the interests of ethnic minority be properly represented by right wing parties? Theoretically, yes, in practice, it just didn't seem to happen. And that's why we've arrived at, where we've arrived at. And my position is formed out on the basis of the three E's - experience, exposure and education. And sadly, those three E's have been reinforced over the course of my life. Where you take a look at it, the intro to this discussion, it was mentioned that we had an Indian Prime Minister, and, of course, we've had the, in fact, the Conservative Party, the more moderate wing of the Conservative Party of the last 14 years, with some aberrations along the way, did more to promote ethnic minorities into high position of politics than possibly any other organisation in the history of Britain. Actually, barring nobody whatsoever. But the problem that we then had was that far too often, that actual diversity was pursuant to bigoted outcomes. For example, if I'm too strident in my perspective today, or too strident in my perspective on any given day, or if I'm too yeah, I'll say, I'll stick with that, with too strong in my perspective on any given day, I could find myself stripped of my British citizenship. Now that doesn't come as any coincidence, that the person who actually helped instill that position into law, de facto into law, was the first Asian Home Secretary, a gentleman called Sajid Javid. So I mean, if you look at the current leader the Conservative Party, it's a similar situation in which she's had to pander to racism in the extreme to get to where she is. Often, what we're often seeing, as far as a right wing parties are concerned, is that the ethnic minorities contained within them, of course, present company, aside, my dear nephew aside, they often find themselves having to go to very, very extreme to prove themselves a lot further to the right than the rest of their contemporaries, and it drags the entire nation to the right and of course into our politics. To wrap it up, yes, the interest of ethnic minorities could be represented by right wing parties, but in reality, they are far too often are not. But I'll also add one final thing, right wing parties are not a monolith. They're very, very different. There's a difference between reform who probably don't care that much for ethnic diversity, and say, the Conservative parties, which does care for the actual, for ethnic diversity, but often pursued to bigoted and sadly far too often racist outcomes. I land my plane there.

Tara Constantine 06:27

Thank you Nels. Albie, same questions to you. Can you briefly summarise your position on the question of whether the interests of ethnic minority voters can be properly represented by right wing parties, and how you came to hold that position?

Albie Amankona 06:41

Well, yes, both in theory and in practice. I was just having a little silent chuckle as Nels was talking. It was a classic Nels speech, full of hyperbole, trying to state that he might have a citizenship stripped if he's too strident in this interview. Let's be very clear, the person who had their citizenship taken away was Shamima Begum, and that happened because she went to go and join ISIS, and that is a point of view that a lot of ethnic minorities actually think was the right point of view. And I think that was the right point of view. So unless Nels is going to go move to Syria and join a terrorist organisation, I think he'll be absolutely fine. So I wouldn't worry too much about that. I don't think Yvette Cooper is going to strip him of citizenship, so maybe he can sleep safely tonight knowing that. But why do I think that ethnic minorities can be represented by right wing parties, both in practice and also in theory? Well, I would say because of the three E's, exactly what Nel said, experience, exposure and education. I am on the right, I've got many ethnic minority friends who are on the right, we feel perfectly represented by the Conservative Party. I know ethnic minority people who are in the Reform Party, they are further to the right than I am, but they feel, they feel their views are perfectly represented by the Reform Party. And I do not think that there is a monopoly on views like fiscal discipline, on views like respecting tradition, on views like believing family is important, on being patriotic, on believing that we should have strong defenses, live within our means, classic conservative principles. I do not think that white people have a monopoly on thought diversity, that is born out in what we have seen with lots of ethnic minority people getting to very top and senior positions within the Conservative Party. But also in the Reform Party until recently, Zia Yusuf was chairman of the Reform Party. We can get into maybe why Yusef stood down, I think a lot of that was to do with racism. But I think the fact that Nigel Farage backed him, and the fact that there are many politicians who back Kemi Badenoch in the Conservative Party, and their point of view on the world and on the country, shows that right wing parties are just as capable as representing the views of ethnic minorities as left-wing parties. And actually we look more broadly at voting intention, as you highlighted earlier on, we do know that between a quarter and a fifth of ethnic minority voters vote for right wing parties in the United Kingdom. That's been the case since before 2010, so this isn't a new phenomenon, either, and I think people that think otherwise need to be a bit more open minded.

Nels Abbey 09:19

A point of information here. The question was, can the interests of ethnic minorities be represented by right wing parties, not the views, very different things.

Albie Amankona 09:29

I think ethnic minorities want lower taxes, they want strong defenses, they want a state that works for them, and they want a patriotic government. So yes.

Tara Constantine 09:38

I will just ask us to put a pin in it here so that we can get guided through the discussion, and we'll both come back to both of your points throughout this. Thank you for laying out your intentions behind what you feel and what you believe in. I think there is a clear area for disagreement between the two of you. I'm going to hand over to Melanie for her to guide us through the rest of the discussion.

Melanie Garson 10:02

Before we go into any guided discussion, I want to ask you each very quickly, as I mentioned in my intro, you've both spoken to each other before. I want to ask you a question, if you're able to answer. Before you came into the discussion today, this is a conversation you've had more than once on similar things. How are you feeling? And I'll start with Nels.

Nels Abbey 10:27

I feel perfectly fine, Albie is a friend. I have shared you with affection and love for Albie. We have these sorts of discussions, not all the time, but sometimes on air, sometimes off air also. But we disagree and we disagree respectfully. Sometimes Albie can be a bit more respectful to his uncle and where we agree we we're happy to do so too. So yeah, I have nothing but absolute love and affection for Albie.

Melanie Garson 10:51

Well, that's a good to know. Albie, how do you feel when you come and sit down in these conversations?

Albie Amankona 10:57

Honestly, today, in particular, I'm feeling quite hot and bothered. I was concerned that I would feel more bothered by the end of this interview. As Nels says there I can get quite frustrated by some of his musings, sometimes. Even though we do generally disagree well, he has a knack of being quite dramatic.

Melanie Garson 11:13

Let's not say 'he has a' for a second. I want to talk about how you feel. So how do you feel? Not necessarily what he does, but how does that make you feel?

Albie Amankona 11:24

I try not to be inflammatory with what I say, very specifically, because on topics like this, I think it's important to be measured, I think it's important to be evidence based. I think it's important to be open minded, and I get frustrated when people are over dramatic on these topics, and sometimes Nels can do that, and he knows that's how I feel about it, and he knows I get frustrated about it, and it's something I've said to him many times before. So I just wish that other people, when I'm having this discussion, would have it in a similar way to how I do, because I try not to be inflammatory when I talk about these issues.

Melanie Garson 12:04

So both of you come in to a point with a certain amount of preconception of how you think the conversation is going to go because of how it's gone before. So I want to just, you know, go into a little bit of just what we've heard today. Of course your points evolve over time. So we'll start with you Albie. I want you to summarise what you've heard Nel say today. So in the sense that, we'll start the sentence, from your point of view the situation looks like this. So I want you to give what you've heard is Nels's point of view today.

Albie Amankona 12:51

So from now this point of view, I understand the situation to be that he thinks, in a theoretical sense, there's no reason why right-wing parties could not represent the interests of ethnic minorities, but in a practical sense, because of what he has experienced, which is different to my experience, he doesn't feel like that is possible. I'm not quite sure what the evidence is to show that, because I think we would both say.

Melanie Garson 13:20

Not what the evidence is, just what his point of view is.

Albie Amankona 13:25

So that's his point of view.

Melanie Garson 13:27

That's his point of view. I'm going to hand over to Nel, thank you for that Albie. Does that sound correct to you Nels, is that how you would wish for yourself to be understood today?

Nels Abbey 13:41

No, it's not far away from what I thought, from what I consider, what I feel. So it's not that I don't feel it's not possible for right wing parties to represent the interests of ethnic minorities. Is that they just don't far too often, that's pretty much where I land. As opposed to, it's not an impossibility in the slightest bit, in fact it very much is a possibility, but they just far too often don't.

Melanie Garson 14:03

Okay. Can I ask you to do the same that Albie just said for you, for Albie to sort of echo, or as if you're talking to Albie, from your point of view, the situation is,

Nels Abbey 14:14

From my point of view the situation is that Albie views politics, almost as a fiscal first, social second phenomena. Therefore, the interest of ethnic minorities are defined principally as financial, financial terms, perhaps business terms, perhaps in terms of that nature or so. But social policy, and which often can mean a life or death situation come secondary. And I completely understand that. That's my understanding of it and I think that's been Albie's perspective from lots of my experiences of him is that, yeah, we want lower taxes, of course we do. Yes, we want a good business environment. Yes, we want appropriate levels of regulation. Yes, we want to be protected in the workplace amongst other things, there's actually time for my perspective is I just view it very, very different to Albie in terms of social side of things, because, based upon my own experience going all the way back when I was a very, very little boy, and some things I've experienced in my lifetime, the social side of things can actually lead to major catastrophes that could really harm people. And that's pretty much where we find ourselves differing, differing in terms of what comes first, use of auto financial business environment, the economic prosperity environments also, or the social environment. I feel both have to come together. I feel that Albie thinks that the economic side of things is more important, which don't go wrong as an ex-banker, is not a million miles from my perspective. I just that my experience has forced me to consider otherwise.

Melanie Garson 15:23

So we're going to come back here, and thank you for that. Albie do you feel that's a fair representation of what you were trying to get across. And do you feel that there's anything that's missing from how Nels has reflected that back at you?

Albie Amankona 15:47

I think what's missing is that I don't know what the role is for government, or if there is a role for government. After all of the anti-discrimination laws that we have have been put in place. What more is there for a government to do when it comes to solving some of these social issues? And I suppose what's missing is maybe a conversation about civic society and what that means for race relations in Britain. I don't know that there is much more that a government in this country needs to do when it comes to race relations or issues of equality, when it comes to legislating the law. I'm a meritocrat, I believe in equal treatment, not in equal outcomes. So I think what is left to do for the government is to ensure that we have an environment where there's equal opportunities. I think my understanding is Nels wants the government to go a little bit further. I don't agree with with things like equity. I'm much more of a of a meritocrat, so I think that's what's missing. It's not that I think economics is more important than social policy. It's that I accept and I believe that government should have limits.

Melanie Garson 17:00

So that's what you felt missing, and now you know, put that forward. Nels, do you have any thoughts in response to that? You know, this is what Albie felt that you hadn't accurately reflected. What would be your response to that?

Nels Abbey 17:17

My response to it would be that, look, we're one year, almost one year to the day, away from which historic race riots broke out in Britain. And if you look in certain places, for example, I think it was in Middlesbrough, where racist checkpoints were established in which people's cars were stopped and which they were checking to see if anybody non-white was actually in the car in which asylum seekers hotels, there was attempt to set them ablaze. People's doors, windows or cars were smashed into randomly, willy nilly, nobody gave a damn whether or not you cared about smaller governments or a more robust economy or anything else. So they cared quite clearly about the color of your skin. And that pretty much broke down right there and then. And I don't think it's any coincidence those historic racist rights that were once inconceivable in Britain, but has since happened twice in quick succession. I don't think it's any coincidence that these things happen, came about in the backdrop of an ethnic minority prime minister who was actively and not just him too, but many prominent ethnic minority politicians, particularly on the Conservative Party, but not exclusively, were actively, often pandering to racism. It created a moral license for racism to actually flourish in this society. So I feel that that's something that we just need to, and then we then saw that racism blow up. We've seen it blow up in course in around the country. Last year we saw it, I think in a place called belly Mina. We saw it blow up, of course, this year too. So I feel that those things cannot be ignored, that the environment, the increasing surge in far-right activity and politics in Britain, is something that cannot be ignored, even as the good Baroness Warsi, who is a conservative peer, attended a speech yesterday, she warned politicians, ethnic minorities politicians using their platform to pander to racism. And I think that that's coming home to roost in real time, and it's something that we need to pay a lot of attention to alleviate. And if the government has a role to play in that too, and it's not just ethnic minorities, the Prime Minister, Keir Starmer himself said that we risk becoming an island of strangers, whereas, Enoch Powell over there, he's since actually apologised for printing because I suspect it didn't work for him. So I think that we find ourselves in a situation where we have to be very, very careful, and they have to look at social policy with our eyes open, because social policy isn't just what's written into law, it's the rhetoric that politicians actually spew into the public to into public domain. So I thought that's what we had to keep an eye on, and we need to be a lot more careful about. It's not just government policy, it's the words of politicians and the behavior of them too.

Melanie Garson 19:39

Thank you so much. Albie, how does hearing what has had a strong impact on Nels, or the interaction with the race riot, sort of resonate with your own experiences of it, and also some of the examples that Nels has shared, of sort of the more recent activity and the more recent speeches by politicians, or statements by politicians, and how does that reflect with your sense on the issue of how ethnic minorities are adequately represented?

Albie Amankona 20:14

I was appalled by the race riots that happened last year after the Southport murders involving that awful young man, Axel Rudakubana, and the young girls who he murdered in cold blood. I was absolutely appalled to see the race riots that erupted across the country. But in terms of after that, more than 1000 people were arrested, a lot of them for race related hate crime charges, nearly 1000 charges were then brought upon those people. There are some very high-profile cases of people that were actually imprisoned for racist things they said, notably Lucy Connolly. There are some people that argue she shouldn't be in prison, there are other people that argue that she should be in prison. But to come back to my earlier point about what more is there for the government to do beyond putting laws in place that criminalize racist behavior? What more is there for the government to do. The race rights, if anything, proved that the legal framework that we have in this country prosecutes and criminalises people who want to spread racial hatred, whether or not that is violently and physically or indeed online, as we saw in the case of Lucy Connolly. So I would just ask anyone, how much further do you want the state to go in that situation? Now, on the point about rhetoric, I agree with Nels. Look, if you Google my name, you will hear, you will see all sorts of things that I've said about conservative politicians being racist, some of which have have lost me job opportunities, so I am not I'm not afraid of calling people racist if they need to be. But I think the idea that politicians, whether or not black or white, can't have reasonable conversations about immigration, for example, or integration, or problems with the scale of migration, particularly since 2019, without being called racist, or wanting to vote for brexit without being called racist, or thinking that we should leave the European Convention on Human Rights without being called racist. I think this whole idea that we can't have proper conversations about those issues without being called racist is a problem. When conservative politicians have gone too far, I have been calling them out since 2020 I'm not scared to do that. I don't think there's any conversation from any politician, Nels is happy with when it comes to immigration, if he even thinks the island of a stranger speech that Keir Starmer did a couple of weeks or a couple of months ago now was reminiscent of Enoch Powell. I mean, it wasn't reminiscent of Enoch Powell. I don't think either of us were in the UK or alive at the time of Enoch Powell. In fact, neither of us were alive. It was 1963 if I remember, I had conversations with my grandfather, who was here at the time. The language in that was very different to in the island of strangers speech. I think that's another case of Nels being a bit over dramatic. There's no comparison between Enoch Powell and Keir Starmer in anything that they've said or anything that they've done.

Melanie Garson 23:10

Nels I do want to ask you, how do you feel when Albie said that you're being overdramatic on the issue?

Nels Abbey 23:20

I don't feel anything whatsoever. If it doesn't apply, let it fly.

Melanie Garson 23:25

That's a very positive approach to thinking about it. But if we come back to the core issue, where we've, you know, discussed the challenges that you know, you feel that some are facing, but to the point of this proper representation by right wing parties. Well, I'm going to ask Albie to ask you. Albie, what is the question you would like to ask Nels that you feel we've not quite got into yet about this proper representation by right wing parties of ethnic minorities.

Albie Amankona 24:04

I would ask, does Nels think any mainstream UK political party right now represents the interests of ethnic minorities?

Nels Abbey 24:13

I would say that the Green Party is doing a better job than anybody else is doing right now. I would say the Labour Party is leaving a lot to be desired. I would say the Conservative Party has vacated the field altogether. And I would say reform are trying to blow up the field.

Albie Amankona 24:30

So no mainstream party then?

Nels Abbey 24:33

I think I answered your question the way in which I did. I think I offered a nuanced and balanced answer, which I believe you've been begging for all afternoon.

Albie Amankona 24:40

I have. I just wouldn't describe the Green Party as a mainstream party.

Nels Abbey 24:43

Horses for courses, I believe. So, yeah, I do consider the Green Party to be a mainstream party, given that they're not calling that far from your party too, actually. So I would say that, hey, you might want to clutch onto those straws whilst you still can. So there we go.

Melanie Garson 24:54

I think that would be the subject of another Disagreeing Well podcast as to whether the Green Party is a mainstream party. I'd like to flip that back on you Nels, is there a question about this proper representation that you would like to ask Albie?

Nels Abbey 25:15

Yeah, absolutely. If you were to rate what you consider to be the mainstream parties in terms of actually being least racist to most racist, how would you rate them?

Albie Amankona 25:24

In terms of policy I do not think any of the mainstream parties are more or less racist than the other. I think there is a consensus in British politics at the moment, in the mainstream parties, that that immigration is too high, that the public spending trajectory that we're on is not sustainable, that economic growth needs to be faster, that we've got a problem with integration in this country, in certain communities. And I think that's a consensus for the Conservative Party, for the Labour Party, for the Lib Dems, even for some of the less mainstream parties, like I would argue The Greens are, or the Reform Party are, I think there is a consensus on all of those things. So I would not say that any of the mainstream parties are more or less racist than another.

Nels Abbey 26:14

So they're just as racist as each other then, from your perspective then?

Albie Amankona 26:17

They are just as able to win the vote of ethnic minorities as each other. You call that racist, if you like. I do not agree with you.

Melanie Garson 26:26

Can I come back to a different, let's reframe this. Let's step back for a minute and reframe this. So I'd like to think about and ask each of you, perhaps for a couple of points as to what would the policies of your ideal party look like if we were to put ourselves both on the same side of the table, put our heads together. So say you have the option to decide or you're designing a new party together, the Albie Nels party. What sort of policies do you think it would have that you feel would adequately represent both the interests that you're trying to seek for ethnic minorities and as well as the whole of Britain.

Albie Amankona 27:10

I don't think ethnic minorities have different interests to any other voters in the country, to be honest. So being an ethnic minority wouldn't change at this point in time, after we've been through, you know, arguably, what you might call a civil rights movement in the UK. I'm not sure, as I mentioned before, what other legislation we need to be fighting for in order to have legal equality. We have that in this country. What I want to see from a political party is more of a focus on the cost of living, and actually the supply side reforms that are going to get our economy into a place where we increase the supply of the goods and services that we need. So it actually brings down costs for everyone and solves the cost of living crisis, whether or not that is reforming planning regulations, which is holding up housing, reservoirs, energy, you name it, you name the infrastructure, our planning regulations are holding it up, whether or not it's looking at our very complicated taxation system, which is disincentivising work and also disincentivising businesses from thriving. By the way, I'm not sure Nels would actually disagree with any of these things.

Nels Abbey 28:18

No, you sound like, you sound like Zohran Mamdani right now.

Albie Amankona 28:22

You can jump in if he wants to. But the point is, what I want to see is a party that is serious about radical supply side reform, and there are left-wing supply-side reforms, there are right wing supplied side reforms. But I also think we really quite seriously, actually need to bring down the numbers of immigration. Because I think when immigration is as high as it currently is, it was nearly a million a couple of years ago. I think that actually drives racism in the country. So I think we need to look very carefully at the numbers of people and the types of people that we're letting into the country, as well as embarking on a proper integration program, and also stronger defense, because that's something I'm quite passionate about.

Melanie Garson 29:01

So we've had a bit of the vision of what Albie's Party would look like. What would you want to add into it Nels for that to be part of your party as well?

Nels Abbey 29:12

I would want a stronger defense too, but I'd want a pragmatic and sensible defense. I would want defense as rooted more in dropping bread than dropping bombs. I would want a defense that's actually that's much more humanitarian in positions or so, and also much more principled in how we support things. Because what often happens is that we speak of immigration, and we speak of smashing the gangs, etc., but we never speak of how we actually supply those gangs and how we enabled them. Because if somebody was dropping bombs in Britain right here, and all I had to do was to hop on a dinghy to escape. I would take that opportunity in a heartbeat, to get somewhere safe, and then after that, after someone's safety, as you go through your hierarchy of needs, once safety is achieved, you then start to think about actual prosperity. So I would do what everybody, what the people are doing, who are actually boarding the small boats to get this country right now. And I think that we should figure out the role that we play within that, that we should be a lot more compassionate about the world, be more swift to provide bread than to provide bombs, be more swift to provide aid, help than to provide lethal aid, or so. And I feel that's pretty much be one of the key areas I think Albie and I are allowed to pray that we would agree on. In terms of actual supply side changes, so I agree. I do think that we should find that the cost of living, the cost of life, is far too high for us in this country. Americans who come here are really surprised at how expensive it is to live in, say, a place like London or to live in the UK, vis-à-vis how low our wages are by comparison. So those are things that I really think that we just need to resolve. I do believe that it has to be some degree of growth. There has to be a focus on growth, but at the same time too, whilst we focus on growth, I think we should also focus on inequality and poverty alleviation. If you have growth or so, it's all concentrated in a few people's hands, and what some people get is filthy rich, and other people just get a lovely stat on a sheet of paper. Then I don't think it makes much of a difference whatsoever. In fact, it tears the country even further apart. So I feel that we need to move to a much more egalitarian, of course, meritocracy, but egalitarian one that where we compare and where we love each other or so, and look out for each other as a nation, as a people, regardless of color, class, creed or race, whatever it might be, and pull together and pull ourselves up as a nation. And also to do our bits actually make the world a more fairer, egalitarian and better place to be, too. And that starts, of course, with, of course, making amends for the past, also to making setting up and using our power, both economic and military power, so to create a better tomorrow. And that starts with bread not bombs.

Melanie Garson 31:37

Albie, do you have any thoughts on this joint vision as ideating from the same side of the table, as to whether that would be integrated, and as I say, reminding ourselves of our original topic, would this be fully representative of people and properly represent the views, needs, fears of ethnic minorities within the UK.

Albie Amankona 32:06

Well, look, as I mentioned at the outset, that I didn't think ethnic minority Britons really had interests that were that different to non-ethnic minority Britons. And I think, from what Nels has just said as well, I think he might think he might think that as well, because he didn't actually mention any ethnic minority specific policies in his policy program. There was a lot of things that I agreed with. Look, I think talking about bread not bombs is it's a nice sound bite, but it's not actually always realistic not to have bombs. Of course, we would rather there was no war, but we do have to have bombs as well, and it's not something we can shy away from. That's not to say that we do not support those who are less fortunate than us when it comes to aid. But ultimately, I think things like the nuclear deterrent, for example, are very important pieces of military infrastructure that have got to be kept and probably expanded. I think Keir Starmer was right to order these new I think the airplanes which carry nuclear bombs, I think that was the right thing to do. We're moving into a more dangerous period of geopolitics. More bombs will be necessary unfortunately. We've had a great peace dividend from the end of the Cold War until now, and unfortunately, it looks like the tectonic plates of geopolitics are shifting, and we'll need to be ready for that.

Melanie Garson 33:23

Another subject, but close to my heart as well, but it's a clever subject that would take us well beyond the scope of this podcast, and it's certainly time for me to hand back to Tara. So thank you so much for an informative and lively conversation. Tara, it's back over to you.

Tara Constantine 33:45

Thank you, Melanie. Just to add on, I think, yeah, a very fascinating and impressive discussion that's touched on so many of the most important issues of our time, which is what we look to do here on the podcast. Melanie and I will be sharing some more reflections at the end of this episode. But before we do that, Albie, are there one or two key things you take away about disagreeing well around this issue and what Melanie has just guided you through.

Albie Amankona 34:10

I've always thought that Nels and I didn't actually disagree on that much, and I think this conversation has confirmed that. I've always been of to view whether you're on the left or the right that people have the same end in mind, but different means. And I think that's probably been illustrated in this podcast.

Tara Constantine 34:29

And now same questions for you. Can you give us one or two key things that you take away?

Nels Abbey 34:34

I've always considered Albie be a charming and brilliant young man with a lot to learn. How dare I say so, and I'm glad to help provide a lesson or two. I'm joking, because Albie's tearing his singlet off or gone full Hulk Hogan there. Or whatever you want to call it. I went a little Ghanaian there. But I do think that across the board, Albie does know, clearly does know that that's why I would never run away from debating Albie I'll be holding discussion with him that Albie clearly knows what he's talking about and as unlike many people in the Conservative Party, Albie is a proud black British man, and he flies his flags. He flies his flags proudly, and I feel that that's shone through today also. But I disagree with him on so many different things or so. I disagree on some things, but the good thing about today, we disagreed well.

Tara Constantine 35:25

Albie and Nels thank you very much. So Melanie, we've taken a moment to reflect on the discussion we've just had. How do you feel the disagreeing went? And can you tell us a bit more about the techniques you used there? And any other reflections or top tips for our listeners?

Melanie Garson 35:42

Well, it was certainly an interesting discussion and as I say, you know, you jumped in right at the outset, as you noticed they were going all out from their introduction, sort of straight into having a debate. What was I looking for? I think in the intro, I said a little bit I was sort of interested to see how much of their preconceptions that they brought to the table. And you did get that very early on, you know you heard, sort of, oh well, dramatic. So automatically, sort of getting the value judgment into the conversation. And what I wanted to try and do, try and get them to just step away from that and to make sure they're listening properly. So we often hear about listening, so the active listening, or deep, strategic listening. So by asking them to reflect back, to say, what do you think they're saying their viewpoint is, and to get them to reflect that back again and to then ask was anything missing. This is a really key technique about people feeling heard and also feeling respected, but that acknowledgement people feel most anxiety, most anger when they usually fear, don't feel respected. And that often comes from not being heard or not being seen. Think about just the word respect, if you go back to the Latin, comes from re to do again, and spectare - to see. So it's to be re seen. So that's the sort of technique that we're trying to get, and you heard them later on talk about their respect for each other, although they can disagree, they have that respect for each other. The other technique as it's evolved, we've got two individuals with deep passion, great vision, lots of ideas. Let's see if we bring ourselves both to the same side of the table, looking at the problem together. What would be the picture that you would create there. And that's a technique we often use in conflict resolution, particularly when we're trying to push towards an agreement on something, to see if we can get that joint vision together and then work from there. So that's what I was trying to work on. But how did you feel it went and what really was interesting for you?

Tara Constantine 38:07

Yeah, I definitely, really enjoyed that final technique where you got them to build their ideal parties, because it did sort of show us that they came sort of full circle, in a way, and they had a lot more to agree on than they did to disagree on. I do think it was very interesting how much there was a focus on race and racism, rather than necessarily focusing on representation of interests. And I think that tends to be the place where I feel like a lot of discussions that involve ethnic minority groups get stuck on or held up on, and I think that final technique definitely pulled them out of that more to focus on the interests. But it really made me think about whether this is even a question we could answer.

Melanie Garson 38:50

It's a really interesting point, that difference between interests and positions, so we could sort of drill down more into it with both sides and say, well what really do you think of the interests of ethnic minorities. Albie would have probably would have said, same interest as everyone, colour doesn't matter. If we'd asked Nels, what the interest he would have come back to, you know, the sort of equality, and there would have been the difference, which is why I didn't go to you could begin to see where that difference is. And often we say, let's try and separate the interests of the position. So the way of bringing them both to the side of the table and say, okay, what party would meet the interests of everybody and get that vision, that was sort of the way to get around that a little bit to have a productive and sometimes inspiring conversation.

Tara Constantine 39:36

Yeah, it was really lovely to hear and I think I could have listened to it forever, really, and we could have kept going. Thank you to our guests, Albie Amankona, and Nels Abbey, and our expert mediator, Dr Melanie Garson, and thank you for listening. We hope you enjoyed the discussion and picked up some tips for disagreeing well. If you have a comment or a question on anything you've heard, please drop us a line at [e-mail]. You can find out more about UCL's Disagreeing Well campaign on the UCL website, or follow us on LinkedIn and bluesky using #UCLDisagreeingWell. Please do subscribe wherever you receive your podcasts to access earlier and forthcoming episodes. Final thanks to Students' Union UCL and the UCL podcast team. This is a Research Podcasts production.