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Technology can make life more convenient, connected, and efficient. But with all that it gives us, could it also be taking something away? How can we use technology to enhance our well-being and not diminish it? On this episode, Deloitte Well-being leader Jen Fisher and colleague Carolyn O’Boyle, national managing director of Talent Strategy and Innovation discuss strategies to maintain a healthy relationship with your technology with Amy Blankson, a leading specialist on mindful living in the digital era.
The WorkWell Podcast™ is back and I am so excited about the inspiring guests we have lined up. Wellbeing at work is the issue of our time. This podcast is your lens into what the experts are seeing, thinking, and doing.
Hi, I am Jen Fisher, host, bestselling author and influential speaker in the corporate wellbeing movement and the first-ever Chief Wellbeing Officer in the professional services industry. On this show, I sit down with inspiring individuals for wide-ranging conversations on all things wellbeing at work. Wellbeing is the future of work. This podcast will help you as an individual, but also support you in being part of the movement for change in your own organizations and communities. Wellbeing can be the outcome of work well designed. And we all have a role to play in this critical transformation!
This podcast provides general information and discussions about health and wellness. The content is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast. The podcast owner, producer and any sponsors are not liable for any health-related claims or decisions made based on the information presented or discussed.
Good tech
Jen Fisher (JF): So I’ve been asking myself this question recently: am I addicted to my technology? My husband calls me out regularly for texting at the dinner table, at the movie theater, and sadly, even just walking down the street. Technology gives us so much information, connection, and convenience. But is it also taking something away? Are we choosing our mobile phones over our relationships? Are we foregoing our passions to update our social accounts? Are we controlling the technology or is the technology controlling us?
That’s what we’re talking about today. This is the WorkWell podcast series. Hi, I’m Jen Fisher, well-being leader for Deloitte, and I’m so pleased to be here with you today to talk about all things well-being.
[preview] Amy Blankson (AB): I do think we face an extraordinary challenge in our current society with sticking to boundaries because the technology is so highly attuned to be distracting, on purpose. They’ve literally run studies as part of tech firms to figure out the best way to arrest our attention. These are strategies that not only are effective, but they’re constantly changing. So the moment that you get used to one strategy, and you finally come up with your defense to set up a boundary, then it’s all shifted.
Jen: I’m here with Amy Blankson, she’s a consultant, speaker, and author on mindful living in the digital area, and is one of the world’s leading experts on the connection between positive psychology and technology. Also joining us is my colleague, Carolyn O’Boyle, she’s the national managing director of talent strategy and innovation at Deloitte.
So Amy, I’m gonna start with you. Should we start with the good news or the bad news when it comes to technology and your well-being?
Amy: So I think it’s helpful to start with the bad news, just to get it out there. We know that technology has led to increased levels of ADHD symptoms in young people to more back and neck problems, even eye strain, thumb disabilities now. We know that there’s more and more young people who are struggling with boundaries and impulse control, and these are symptoms that something bigger is happening in society that we’re not yet prepared to deal with. So yes it’s important to acknowledge some of the bad things that have come with the rapid proliferation of technology. I think there’s a great story as well about the positives of technology. Obviously we see so many of the benefits that enables us
to connect with relatives on the other side of the world, or the ability to be more productive in a faster time period. The ability to understand ourselves on a deeper level is just massively different. Even the ability to 3D-print organs that can save lives now, that excites me. It makes me really hopeful for the future of technology, but that being said, I think we still are not using technology the way that it needs to be used, or the best way that it could be used for our best sense of well-being.
Jen: So I want to kind of take you back to the bad news. One of the things that, of all the laundry list and we could probably go on, one of the things that you didn’t’ mention was technology addiction and the similarities that we’re seeing in addiction to technology and its impact on people’s lives, their ability to connect and associate with others, as well as comparing their lives to other people’s lives, but similar impacts that we see with drug addiction, basically. So I want to dive into that a little bit if you don’t mind.
Amy: Sure. So I’m actually careful to use the word addiction because though there are some similarities in the way that we interact with technology, true addiction is something that means that you’re not able to function, and for most of us, we have a technology propensity. We may have a technology weakness, but a true addiction is probably limited to closer to around seven or eight percent of the population. That being said, I could easily see how more and more people could move in that direction if we don’t start to put some limits and boundaries in place today that sets us up for a better future.
Jen: So you mentioned technology and the positives of technology, and one of those being that technology does make us, or promises to make us, more productive, especially in the workplace. But is having constant access to our email inbox really what we consider to be more productive? Is that what we’re talking about? Or are there other things in the workplace that are enhancing our productivity in terms of technology and connection, and I think Carolyn, I’ll throw this one to you, what do you think?
Carolyn O’Boyle (CO): Sure. I think technology has absolutely enhanced our productivity. You mentioned access to information. You mentioned access to people. Both of those things and the increased transparency that has come along with it have enabled us to be more productive, I would even say be more creative. So I think it’s freed us up to do other things. At the same time, as Amy talked about, it can be a distraction. I think the key in what she was describing and what I’ve noticed myself is that the way we choose to interact with the technology determines whether we fall on the positive side of things or on the negative side of things. Whether we let ourselves be distracted by a constantly pinging email box, or IM window, or whether we’re thoughtful and deliberate about making sure that we preserve the time to be critical thinkers, or to spend time engaging with one another.
Jen: How do you identify when technology has crossed that line from being enhancing your day, your productivity, your well-being, to actually becoming detrimental?
Amy: So as William Shakespeare once said, “There’s nothing good or bad, but thinking makes it so.” So I think technology is neither good or bad, but it is a magnifier of things that are already going on in our life. So if you have a propensity to overwork, then technology may exacerbate that. If you have a desire to spend time on games online, technology will now enable you to do those longer and for more sustained time with more people. I see this firsthand that these games become something that draw you in. It’s not
just that technology. In fact, technology is just a screen, right, so when we’re looking at some of these things, you have to go back to the fundamental root of why we started using the technology, and the idea was that technology was supposed to make us happier because it saved you time so that you could get to the things that you really want to be doing. And I would ask the question, what is it that we really want to be doing? And I’m not sure that we’re always that conscious or thoughtful about it. If we’re not intentional about what that is, just like anything in life, it won’t happen. So if our intention is to spend more time with our children, we have to do so even more so clearly with technology by setting perhaps appropriate time limits around your own technology use, or around their technology use. And then, after you set the limits, actually following through to spend quality time with your children. What I see happening on the back end is that because we’re just responding to the tyranny of the urgent, or to the demands that are coming at us constantly, whether it’s through social media, or email, or text messages, or phone calls, that we are constantly in response, but we’re not being proactive about who we really want to be.
Carolyn: I also think that technology in some cases has become a default mechanism for us. So, I’m bored, I have ten minutes, I’m gonna pick up my phone, and I’m gonna scroll, or I’m gonna check emails, and so for me, what I found in my life and candidly in the life of my son, is making sure that that first decision point, or that first point of boredom or looking for something to do, is deliberate and thoughtful, Amy to your point…
Jen: The default is not…
Carolyn: So the default is not. So when my son comes and asks me, can I go play a video game or can I watch a show, if it’s the first thing that he’s asking me to do, the answer is almost always going to be no, because I want to make sure that he, and myself included, are considering the broad range of things that I can do, or that we can do. And so making sure that that is a conscious choice and that I’m not just taking the easy way out because my phone happens to be in my hand, or happens to be in my pocket, I think is a really important step in maintaining that balance.
Jen: Great. Amy, you said something that really, I wrote it down, it stuck out at me, so technology is just a screen. I think that’s a really powerful statement and leads me down the path of in today’s day and age, when screens are everywhere, it’s very easy to either use them as a distraction, like Carolyn was talking about, but I also fear that we are becoming, we’re so connected that we’re almost disconnected, if that makes sense. So can you talk a little bit about that, and what you’re seeing, and what you’ve studied, along those lines?
Amy: I’m so glad you brought this up, Jen, because it gives me an opportunity to talk about one of my favorite studies that was done. The original study was done in 1997, by Dr.
Richard Kraut at Carnegie Mellon University, and he did one of the very first ever studies of social media use. It was actually just plain old internet at that point. Of just the internet surfing for five hours a day, he asked young people to surf the internet and to report before and after how they felt. Were they happier? Did they feel connected? Were they sluggish or lethargic? What was interesting was, actually it wasn’t that surprising in the beginning, at the end of that first five hours what they discovered was that the young people felt, not surprisingly, more sluggish, less connected, less happy, a little bit more depressed. But what they discovered was in 2001, when they repeated the same exact experiment, the
internet was better developed, as was social media, and so this time Dr. Kraut broke the group into two. He asked one group to surf the internet for five hours, like the previous study, the second group he asked to specifically focus on strong ties versus weak ties. So weak ties, they were individuals that they didn’t actually interact with on a regular basis. They maybe had one, or possibly two, connections with maybe in person or only online, only one mode of communication, versus a strong tie. This is an individual that has multiple different ways of contacting and communicating with each other. It could be phone, and email, and in person, for instance. So what they discovered was that the group that surfed the internet for five hours was strong ties. Those individuals were more connected. They were more positive. They felt less lethargic than the other group, which said to me that those individuals who were being very intentional about how they used the technology were able to get better results. And even more so that you were then able to focus on friendships that could deepen when you’re not exchanging one mode of communication for another.
You’re not replacing in-person time with email time. Now you have six ways to communicate with your friends, which deepens your relationship, because you’re talking far more than you ever would have before. Perhaps the conversation has shifted, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. In my own life what I try to do now is focus on the strong ties and to sluff off some of the weak ties, the contacts I don’t interact with on a deep level, mean that that’s not quality time in my own personal life unless I’m developing a new friendship. But I think for the most part, if I can focus on deepening relationships, it’s not necessarily technology that’s weakening it, it’s how I’m using the technology.
Jen: So are you saying, for example, I’ll just take social media because that’s the easy one, for me I have a lot of people on my social media pages that I haven’t seen, spoken to, thought about, quite frankly, for years, but I know them at some point in my life. If I was to use that theory in terms of using technology to strengthen those connections, my action would then be, I should really delete all of those people that are weak ties because they’re not enhancing or necessarily adding any value to my life by having them on my social media. As a matter of fact, I might be hurting myself in some ways because I’m looking at their life and maybe comparing my life to theirs or something like that because there’s no value in that relationship, per say.
Amy: I wouldn’t necessarily delete them.
Jen: Maybe I’m looking for a way to delete my…
Carolyn: Invest less in those relationships.
Jen: I’m asking for permission here, Amy.
Amy: I think consider them a database so you don’t have to spend time in the database. If you need to access them, they’re there, but maybe make the priority on the friends that you care about and interact with more often or that you really want to invest time in. And don’t follow, on a regular basis, or at least don’t make them priorities in your feed if you’re not really interested in following what’s going on in their life. But you bring up an interesting point too about how we do social comparison on social media, and I just have to speak to that for a second because I do hear that from a lot of people that looking at other people’s lives actually makes them less happy, and makes them feel like they have to keep up with the Joneses. And to the extent that that is something that is a very real phenomenon that’s
going on in our world today, I think that it is worth acknowledging and actually counteracting actively to focus on positive skillsets that can build you up and build other people up as well. So this is where I focus a lot on positive skillset development. That comes out of my background in positive psychology that is focusing on acts of kindness, or how you can express gratitude, or how you can be authentic in your interactions. The more that you live that offline, the more you’re gonna live it online, and hopefully also be a magnet for other likeminded people that won’t constantly be dragging you down with negative comments that can’t necessarily go anywhere. I think critiques are fine. Asking hard questions is great, but individuals who are just spewing negativity are actually causing an emotional contagion for you that may not be that healthy.
Jen: And I think it’s also important to remember that what you see online is, quite often, curated content, and what people want you to see about their lives.
Amy: Absolutely.
Jen: It’s not the whole of their lives. So Carolyn I think this gets to something that you’ve recently become passionate about, and I know you’re doing a little bit of research on, but this notion of the fact that some of the technology tools that we use, and that have been developed, are creating some people to feel more lonely in the world or in their lives. And I think the flipside of that is, since we’re talking about the positive and negatives is, a recent article that I read that I think I shared with you is this same technology that for some of our younger people is leading to social comparison, depression, loneliness. On the flipside, when you look at the older generation, they’re using these tools to stay connected to family, to know what’s going on in their lives, and there, again, you’re seeing the yin and the yang or the positive and negative. So can you talk a little bit more about that?
Carolyn: Sure, and I think a lot of it does come back to the framing point that we discussed a little earlier. One of the things that I was fascinated by, when I started looking at the topic of loneliness, is the actual definition of what loneliness is. It’s not that you’re not surrounded by people, and it’s not that you don’t have connections with people, it’s actually that there’s a gap between the degree of social interaction that you want and the degree of social interaction that you have. And so it’s, by definition, driven by your reference points, and so the examples that you gave, which I think we’re hearing a lot more about, validate that definition because for some of the older generation who felt isolated, they were able to overcome loneliness because they were able to fill that gap. They were able to find people with common interests, shared passions, shared experiences, and then forge those meaningful connections. On the flipside, as seen in some of our younger generation, they are more focused on what they don’t have. So they’re sort of looking at that negative side of the gap. I think Amy’s points about how we can use positive psychology to overcome them are really helpful. The concept of being excluded from something, a dinner party, a party in general, at some sort of social interaction, that’s not new, that’s not brought on by technology. What has been brought on by technology is the fact that we’re now aware of it, or more aware of it, and so we talked earlier about changing how we control our reaction to things, I come back to that as a key learning or insight for this younger generation, recognizing that this is the way life is. There’s always going to be times when they’re in the in group, times when they’re not, and that’s okay, that’s healthy, that’s part of the balance of life, and that’s the nature of human relationships. So I think the more that we can
promote those types of messages, I think it helps us a lot with how people think about themselves in that social construct and, in turn, how they feel relative to loneliness.
Jen: And this might not be loneliness, specifically, but on the concept of FOMO, or fear of missing out, and when you bring it back to the workplace, and a recent Deloitte survey that we did, it was an external survey that we did with fulltime knowledge workers, and basically asking people why they don’t disconnect from work when they’re on vacation. The number one, and I forget the percentage, but it was pretty high was because there was a fear of missing out or they felt like something was going to happen while they were away.
Carolyn: Can I interrupt you for a second?
Jen: Yeah, for sure.
Carolyn: Because I think that’s fascinating, and again, a situation where technology is maybe a scapegoat for the underlying element, which is that people are connecting their self-worth so much to their job, and technology becomes the way that that manifests itself, but they’re still deeply, and potentially I’m one of these people, they’re still deeply connected to their workplace identity. Maybe there’s a fear of who am I if I don’t have that, and if people are able to get along without me, because I’ve left my laptop at home for two days, hypothetically, what does that mean?
Jen: But do you also think that in some ways that, I don’t know that it demonstrates a lack of trust, but for the people that work for you, it does potentially stunt their growth in some ways too. As a leader, if you’re always checking in instead of letting them handle it.
Carolyn: Oh, absolutely. Honestly, what you just did, stepping back and thinking about the other people in the equation, it’s terrible for everybody, because you’re telling them that you don’t trust them, you’re constantly micromanaging, and obviously how it prevents you from disconnecting. It’s not, I don’t recommend it.
Jen: Yeah. I’ll put myself out there on this is, when I was going on my last vacation, I was on a call with my team preparing, and what are the last minute things that we need to discuss, and one of the people that works with me said, “So Jen, we’re just not gonna send you any emails while you’re on vacation,” because they know of my weakness, as you put it, Amy, that I’m going to check emails. He said we’re not gonna do it, and then are you okay with that? And I physically was sweating because the answer should have been yes, that’s amazing, I’m totally okay with it, but in my head I was going, my god, how am I gonna handle this? How am I gonna know what’s going on? What am I gonna do? But my team was supporting me in that they know that it’s hard for me to disconnect, and so their solution to that was, okay, well we’re just gonna make you disconnect, and we’re not gonna send you anything, which was brilliant, and after I got back I sent them all a thank you note and said thank you for doing that, it was really noticeable. But I think, again, that also takes being vulnerable, but I think that part of that is what we need to do as people, as leaders, as team members to help with positive adoption of technology habits or cultural norms.
Amy: That’s very transparent of you. Thanks for that Jen. One of the things I’ve been hearing more and more has been that leaders who are able to show and demonstrate that ability to have digital boundaries are perceived as more authentic, as having more
charisma, as showing great leadership, and I think that that is a dramatic shift from just a couple of years ago, when especially female leaders felt like it was very hard to have digital boundaries because people that perceive them as being too family oriented, that maybe they were trying to get off of work to take care of their children, and so that was seen as a weakness. The world has shifted and changed dramatically since then, but the ability now to be looked up as a leader, be looked up at as a leader because of digital boundaries, is something that I think we should all really enjoy and run with that ability to show other people exactly how it can work. Recent I did an event with a group of event planners, and it was really interesting. They were mostly female, and the event planners said digital boundaries sound great, but in the event business we’re 24/7. We’re working with global teams. There’s just simply not an ability to shut off. And as I talked to them individually, a little bit longer and I pushed them on this, what came out was that all of them had some digital boundaries, they just weren’t acknowledging them within the larger group. It was everything from, I shut off at 6 p.m., and maybe they didn’t’ tell anybody. Maybe they don’t check email on the weekend. When they go on vacation they put someone else in charge.
Perhaps it was splitting their time so they work morning and evening so they could get both time zones that they were working in. But the boundaries are something that we absolutely have to have. They’re not optional anymore. You can’t function and be a well leader without them. So the ability to now acknowledge them and get bonus points for acknowledging them is great news for all of us.
Jen: So what you have you seen in your research or your own personal experiences around setting boundaries, why it’s so hard to set them, to stick with them, why it works, and then why it doesn’t work, and then I guess potentially what are some tips or some things that we can do to make these boundaries stick? I know that was a really long, big question, so we can take it piece by piece.
Amy: Sure thing. So one of my favorite studies is called the mere presence study that says that when you are in a meeting, and you have a phone in your line of sight, even if you never touch it or look at it, it can actually decrease your focus, your connectedness, and your sense of flow at work, just by having it in your presence. And so my new strategy, and I use this one all the time, is that I hide my phone. If I have to have it on the table to hear a vibration or whatever because I’m anticipating a call, I’ll hide it behind my laptop screen. Or if I don’t need to know, then I’ll hide it in my bag, or my back pocket, and just getting it out of my line of sight. And the cognitive function behind this is that what happens when you have your phone in your line of sight is that your brain is actually anticipating that you might get a message, and it’s reserving about 10% of your focus towards that potential.
And that Pavlovian response that we have with the, you hear a ding, we all have the same ding on our phones, so everybody looks up all at once, we don’t need to do this, and I think it’s a matter of retraining yourself that that’s not something you have to do, and it’s something very much within your own capacity to choose and do differently. Another strategy that I found really effective, perhaps the greatest strategy of all, is gathering data about yourself to understand how you operate because you are a unique individual different everybody else, and the reasons why and how you’re using technology are gonna differ from the person sitting next to you. But when I have data about myself in front of me, I can’t ignore it. So one of my favorite apps is an app that simply helps me track how many times I unlock my phone, how long I go in between unlocks, and what I’m doing on my phone when I have it. And I ran an experiment about a year ago for a one-week period where I was very intensely focused on studying my stats, and what I discovered was that
the average smartphone user opens and closes their phone 150 times a day, which is, if you do the math that’s about, it maybe takes one minute to open your phone, that’s the equivalent of two and a half hours of your day opening your phone. Two and a half hours of your day, that is a significant portion of time that has changed in our human experience in the last ten years. So I didn’t believe that was true for myself, I thought that sounded highly inflated. So I ran my own experiment, and what I discovered was that, in fact, I only open and close my phone about 50 times a day. Yay me, I’m so proud of myself. But what I learned was that when I open my phone I got sucked in more than the average person, and I was spending anywhere from a minimum of three hours a day on my phone, up to six hours, and this is during a time period when I knew I was running the experiment. So I honestly cannot tell you what I was doing during that time period, but I recognized, for me, this is a pattern in my life of how I use technology that I have to hit the source to make a difference in my own life. So it was a great starting point for a conversation internally about who do I want to be, how do I want to spend my time, and how am I gonna make it happen?
Jen: You know, we’ve spent a lot of time talking about really both the positives and the negatives of technology, but what are some of the cool and exciting things, Amy, that you’re seeing that are being created for positive use of technology coming out?
Amy: There are lots of good, positive examples, and part of my work is reviewing gadgets, apps, wearable devices, in this field, so I get to see the best of the best emerging, and I do find it very heartening to see that not only it’s a science, but also the data is getting better and better to show us that these things are actually working. One of them is the Muse Headband. I love it. It is a EEG headband strip that goes across your forehead that helps you learn how you meditate. So for those individuals who are new to meditation, who are still exploring how to meditate, and have no idea if they’re even doing it right, they’re just being quiet and hoping something magical happens. Now you have this feedback loop where you can see on a screen when your brain starts to lose focus, and the goal is not to never lose focus, it’s actually to recover your brain as many times as possible so that you’re teaching yourself how to develop long-term focus. I love that one because it is so clear that you can develop a skillset over time and track your data. Another one I’ve used to track my breath patterns, and what it teaches you is how to analyze what’s happening with your breath in order to understand your mental status. So are you feeling calm, focused, are you anxious, and as an anxious person, what I found the first time I started using this device was that in one day I had four calm minutes. Four. But that is something that was a great starting place to improve from.
Jen: And how did they track what’s a calm minute?
Amy: So a calm minute would be a certain breath pattern that would be a regular flow, but more sustained over a certain period of time, and so that algorithm continues to improve as they get more and more biorhythmic data and biometric data to help you understand your own breath patterns. But we have these great clues where for the first time in history we’re seeing technology merge with a cognitive revolution to understand what’s going on deep inside of us, and I liken it to the old days where you used to take a vitamin and hope that something good came out of that vitamin for our bodies, and that you might see an effect. That’s what we were kind of doing in the past, kind of blind technology, and now we have this granularity with data that says, oh, ok, if I’m feeling anxious, I’m gonna focus on my
breath pattern, and I’m gonna learn a little bit more about meditation so that then I can be more calm and focused at my work. That’s strategy, and it’s something that I can be very intentional about using to become my best self.
Jen: So I think I’m gonna do a little lightning round here with the two of you to close this out. But let’s see, let’s do our, what are our top three technology well-being tips that you use in your personal life?
Amy: I can give you one that’s coming to mind specifically. I like to use the idea that our phones are gateways towards temptation. So when I open my phone, I know that it’s gonna take a minimum of one minute to check whatever message it is and perhaps respond to it, maybe even longer, so what I’ve started to do is use my phone lock screen as a gut check about whether I really need to open my phone or not. So I actually made a bunch of free intention screens, I call them, so they say anything like does this move me further or farther from my goals? Closer to or farther from my goals? Or my current screen says, “really,” so it makes me really think about whether I need to open it, so I’m using that as a gateway. I think a second strategy for me that has worked really well is that when I get to my office in the morning, before I ever open my laptop, I take two minutes to watch my breath go in and out, and that helps me center myself to focus on my priorities before the bright screen, and the lights, and the color ever start to tempt me. And that little action has transformed my day, and in that two minutes it is amazing how many things I think of that I might have otherwise forgotten that were incredibly important. So using strategic periods of time during the day. A third strategy that I’ve been using is to manage my energy throughout the day by using chunks of time, in the best way that I know how, for myself.
So I know I’m more productive in the morning, so I focus specifically on creative projects for the first hour of the day, and I’ve actually started to block that hour on my calendar. I don’t schedule meetings during that first hour, and then after that I’ll let myself check email, and I’m trying to check no more than three times a day because that’s been scientifically proven to be more effective than constantly checking your email, and I certainly have found that to be true. And so by using that time period then I can say, okay, creative projects now then email, which is more check and go, and then at the end of the day I’m doing some of the fun projects that I was hoping to get to, but that’s when I’m usually at my lowest energy level. So knowing my productivity energy helps me to use technology better.
Jen: What about you?
Carolyn: So I would say at the highest level my strategy is to find the positive uses for technology, and the two that come to mind for me: I track my fitness data rather obsessively. But it’s been helpful because it actually maintains my enthusiasm and momentum for running. I find that I’ve gotten to be better at running because of the data that I get, and it’s enabled me to do more specific interval training and etc., etc. So I’m able to focus on the positive benefits that I can get from using technology in that way. I’m currently in a goal right now to make sure that I run a hundred more days before the end of the calendar year. And the app that’s on my phone will help keep me true to that pace. So that’s one strategy. The other is, one of the things that I do the most to recharge is read.
And so what I’ve done is downloaded the app to my phone, and so I always have books with me. So if I have ten minutes while I’m waiting for a doctor, or 15 minutes here or there, I can actually do something productive with that time that I know recharges me. And so I
always have a book that I can dive into. I still read most of my books by hardcopy, but this has become a way for me to channel my technology use into something that brings me joy.
Jen: I’m so grateful Amy and Carolyn could be with us today. Thank you to our producers and to you, our listeners. You can find the WorkWell podcast series on Deloitte.com or you can visit various podcatchers using the keyword, “WorkWell,” all one word, to hear more. And if you like the show, don’t forget to subscribe so you can get all of our future episodes. If you have a topic you would like to hear on the WorkWell podcast series, or maybe a story you’d like to share, reach out to me on LinkedIn. My profile is under the name Jennifer Fisher, or on Twitter, @jenfish23. We’re always open to recommendations and feedback, and of course, if you like what you hear, please share, post, and like this podcast. Thanks and be well.