Chasing Leviathan

PJ and Dr. Balbinder Bhogal discuss Sikhi, it's rich history and emerging future. Dr. Bhogal also provides insight into the ways in which colonization affected (and continues to affect) Sikhi, as well as other Indic traditions.

Show Notes

In this episode of the Chasing Leviathan podcast, PJ and Dr. Balbinder Bhogal discuss Sikhi, it's past, present, and future. Dr. Balbinder helps to uncover colonized ways of thinking about Sikhi, including it's religious categorization and even its Westernized moniker, "Sikhism."

For a deep dive into Dr. Balbinder Bhogal's work, check out some of his papers:
Sikh Dharam and Postcolonialism: Hegel, Religion, Zizek 👉 https://www.academia.edu/2217506/Sikh_Dharam_and_Postcolonialism_Hegel_Religion_Zizek
God/Amphora in Clay and Light 👉 https://www.academia.edu/37199092/God_Amphora_in_Clay_and_Light
The Facts of Colonial Modernity and the Story of Sikhism 👉 https://www.academia.edu/13049838/The_Facts_of_Colonial_Modernity_and_the_Story_of_Sikhism

Check out our blog on www.candidgoatproductions.com

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud.

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop.

Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.

What is Chasing Leviathan?

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.

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[Unknown3]: sikhism or sky do you have a preference and how do you say that

[Unknown4]: uh sikhi

[Unknown3]: sicky

[Unknown4]: so uh the british in india they would not pronounce it mispronounce it because it

[Unknown4]: would mean

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[Unknown4]: sick would mean you're ill

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[Unknown3]: got it

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[Unknown3]: yeah

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[Unknown3]: and my k

[Unknown4]: and my mother being in a new country new context uh

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[Unknown3]: so what my part but also one t

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[Unknown4]: uh that trauma

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[Unknown4]: migration to to england and the english language

[Unknown3]: what you do

[Unknown3]: language because of the mos fas was

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[Unknown3]: charleson

[Unknown4]: just wants to connect and grow up and they do you know i i

[Unknown3]: i i know they don't have any problem

[Unknown4]: looking back i don't think i had any problems i was quite an egotistical forward

[Unknown4]: thinking

[Unknown4]: loving kind of guy wanting to do everything and

[Unknown3]: hm

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[Unknown4]: at sixteen i looked at my elder brother to as my father figure to

[Unknown3]: was sixteen i lived at my elder brother to as my co

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[Unknown4]: guide me and he said become an engineer like me because you've got good grades in

[Unknown4]: metalwork and woodwork and technical drawing and maths your english sucks i've he

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[Unknown4]: couldn't get into university

[Unknown4]: but so i did and i work for a ross a draftsman

[Unknown3]: what talking about

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[Unknown3]: you like to

[Unknown4]: and study religion and philosophy now the shift from

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[Unknown4]: questions and you know religion and philosophy that's where they are

[Unknown3]: yeah

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[Unknown3]: ah

[Unknown4]: and so

[Unknown4]: i remember

[Unknown3]: remember that good

[Unknown4]: doing a ba in religion then doing a ph

[Unknown3]: phd had fun job in teaching one of my first classes i i the second time

[Unknown4]: d and finally getting a job and then teaching my one of my first classes i after

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[Unknown3]: this one i love believe how extremely

[Unknown4]: first time i laughed at him and i couldn't believe how extreme his views were

[Unknown4]: about so sort of li libido and focused

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: but the second time i taught him in class

[Unknown4]: uh

[Unknown4]: as i was teaching the students i was hearing the words being

[Unknown3]: i was always teaching students i was here

[Unknown4]: spoken to myself and i realize for the first time that

[Unknown3]: sp to myself kind of realized because

[Unknown4]: i was the one that was traumatized and i i needed to seek help and i broke down in

[Unknown3]: i just the street

[Unknown4]: class as i was teaching so that that's when i started realizing oh something's

[Unknown3]: fa his own speech so that that's i say really

[Unknown4]: wrong my my twin brother had realized much

[Unknown3]: be beautiful

[Unknown4]: before all the other family members i have

[Unknown4]: at

[Unknown3]: at that time live his five was

[Unknown4]: time i had there's five of us three brothers two sisters

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: and um

[Unknown4]: my twin brother

[Unknown4]: realized first and he said we are all traumatized we've all put in place

[Unknown3]: re first said you

[Unknown3]: put in place

[Unknown4]: um coping strategies that are now creaking

[Unknown3]: uh cooking stuff that are now

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[Unknown4]: in early

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[Unknown4]: twenties

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[Unknown3]: che

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[Unknown3]: right

[Unknown4]: infinite traces that form my interior life but there is no inventory

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[Unknown4]: there's no index

[Unknown3]: yes

[Unknown4]: so until we start to self reflect about what

[Unknown3]: what do you

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[Unknown4]: traces

[Unknown3]: yeah

[Unknown4]: and so

[Unknown3]: the

[Unknown4]: i started on that process

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[Unknown3]: what

[Unknown4]: um

[Unknown3]: how

[Unknown4]: how an effort had to be made

[Unknown4]: to translate the encounters that i was experiencing

[Unknown4]: into a narrative that

[Unknown4]: allowed me not just to survive

[Unknown3]: a lot just to support

[Unknown4]: but to actually

[Unknown3]: f

[Unknown4]: direct my life

[Unknown3]: right

[Unknown4]: now survivor though stories are

[Unknown4]: interesting to me because

[Unknown3]: doesn't

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[Unknown4]: if the survivor

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[Unknown4]: coping strategy

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[Unknown3]: so i might just subconsciously s teach

[Unknown4]: without my knowing just subconsciously spontaneously i invented the notion that um

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[Unknown3]: yeah

[Unknown4]: for my parents and my my father to

[Unknown3]: to i like

[Unknown4]: come back and that's the yearning for

[Unknown4]: god and hence my shift from engineering to

[Unknown3]: what i ask question

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[Unknown4]: religion and philosophy

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[Unknown4]: i was just intrigued by you know i moved from objects

[Unknown4]: aerodynamics

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[Unknown3]: the pups

[Unknown4]: happens after death etc the big questions

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[Unknown3]: more she wants like martial the martial arts teachers see very interesting they

[Unknown4]: very interesting and it was a safe haven for me which i only realize in retrospect

[Unknown3]: was say ch

[Unknown4]: and the safe haven was to do with my body

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[Unknown4]: because both sicky and the martial arts treat

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[Unknown4]: body as sacred it's a temple it's not to a full of muscle strength

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[Unknown4]: and inviting of you know like in chinese it would be che

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[Unknown4]: eventually got a job at a dob university in england then

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[Unknown3]: oh

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[Unknown3]: yes

[Unknown4]: uh to virginia

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[Unknown4]: to york university

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[Unknown3]: iron

[Unknown4]: uh

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[Unknown4]: um i'm invisible because

[Unknown3]: um i

[Unknown3]: because every she was

[Unknown4]: everybody else shares that culture that tradition

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[Unknown4]: that way of life and i i

[Unknown3]: i

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[Unknown3]: the cy values

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[Unknown3]: yeah yeah yeah

[Unknown4]: like from india

[Unknown4]: india to to to england or

[Unknown4]: england to america or

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[Unknown4]: major move like that then what becomes immediately important about to see things

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[Unknown4]: visible to

[Unknown3]: yourself

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[Unknown3]: does

[Unknown4]: doesn't share your value system who

[Unknown3]: was it she

[Unknown4]: doesn't share your assumptions and suddenly you realize oh

[Unknown3]: i said were like oh

[Unknown4]: what

[Unknown3]: what time how you do two he

[Unknown4]: i have been brought up with is arbitrary

[Unknown4]: its

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[Unknown4]: geographic is climatic it's

[Unknown3]: traditional

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[Unknown3]: so

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[Unknown4]: and how one is how one's own interior is shaped by that

[Unknown3]: like how one house one

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[Unknown4]: how the

[Unknown3]: should

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[Unknown4]: and must

[Unknown3]: sports

[Unknown4]: always be renegotiated because if we have encounter which is our bodies and we

[Unknown3]: she

[Unknown4]: shift to meaning making which is our

[Unknown3]: why

[Unknown4]: minds and our interpretation we're

[Unknown3]: she

[Unknown4]: shifting from translation to interpretation

[Unknown4]: when we shift to

[Unknown4]: interpretation

[Unknown3]: t

[Unknown3]: interpret

[Unknown4]: interpretation is the mode of comfort of control of organization

[Unknown4]: and that can be a blind wall

[Unknown3]: i'm not gonna be my

[Unknown4]: such that if you don't travel outside the context you'll be interpreting like

[Unknown3]: so sh outside the cos

[Unknown4]: everybody else interprets so there's a theme there that start to become really

[Unknown4]: important that goes through all of my work where

[Unknown3]: yeah

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[Unknown4]: encounter with the other

[Unknown3]: okay that's good so

[Unknown4]: as oneself as being the base ground base unit

[Unknown4]: which is unthinkable

[Unknown3]: it's just fun

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[Unknown3]: uh

[Unknown4]: uh

[Unknown3]: a course

[Unknown4]: approached and engaged but none of those names capture it

[Unknown4]: so that's what the body is the body is an unny tradition it's too sacred the earth

[Unknown3]: so that's what the fort is what is it

[Unknown4]: is too sacred the trees are too sacred they're nameless they're actually the form

[Unknown4]: of the divine the in the sk tradition the creator is in the creation and the

[Unknown4]: creation is in the creator which is unlike the abrahamic traditions so here you

[Unknown4]: have a very

[Unknown4]: that

[Unknown3]: what that

[Unknown4]: that sacris every single form

[Unknown4]: and

[Unknown4]: that's why i say the encounter with the other

[Unknown3]: that's why you see you

[Unknown4]: it is a mode of

[Unknown4]: could

[Unknown3]: cook

[Unknown4]: be a mode of awakening

[Unknown4]: yeah so

[Unknown4]: so

[Unknown3]: so

[Unknown4]: that trauma i think got me to

[Unknown3]: me too

[Unknown4]: ask

[Unknown3]: ask questions

[Unknown4]: questions about religion

[Unknown4]: and philosophy that

[Unknown4]: i thought were just my ego's interest

[Unknown3]: i could just my

[Unknown3]: right

[Unknown4]: but it was my eat the where my ego was cracking that the interest was pushing

[Unknown4]: through

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown3]: i can think of almost like a sapling coming up through concrete

[Unknown4]: right right exactly that's

[Unknown3]: exactly

[Unknown4]: exactly right concrete would be the interpretive layer that we put on

[Unknown3]: a lot

[Unknown4]: life and in indian philosophy that interpretive layer is always delusional

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: that

[Unknown3]: interesting

[Unknown4]: we have to break through that

[Unknown4]: and

[Unknown3]: i lucky here side

[Unknown4]: connect with the real which is the sapling how

[Unknown3]: how

[Unknown4]: do we connect with the sapling

[Unknown3]: his music

[Unknown4]: is is uh what sicky is all about

[Unknown4]: actually the integration i should correct that the integration with the

[Unknown3]: second

[Unknown4]: sampling with the concrete with

[Unknown3]: the trans through

[Unknown4]: translation with interpretation with encounter with meaning making the integration

[Unknown4]: of those two is crucial not to get just

[Unknown3]: box

[Unknown4]: lost in in the

[Unknown4]: naming that we egos give life whether it's pessimistic or optimistic frames that

[Unknown4]: we put on and impose life

[Unknown3]: yeah in the in the west we definitely have that

[Unknown3]: what i have come to term just

[Unknown4]: interesting

[Unknown3]: in shorthand like a language of boxes

[Unknown3]: and so and

[Unknown4]: so

[Unknown3]: i think that's

[Unknown3]: yeah if something doesn't fit in the box we cut it to fit

[Unknown3]: and that

[Unknown4]: i

[Unknown3]: what you do is you lose the nature of the thing

[Unknown3]: a couple things one is uh for our audience that isn't as familiar when you talk

[Unknown3]: about traces and how

[Unknown3]: there are infinite traces in the production of conscious of our consciousness

[Unknown3]: through the use of story of creating these sign posts can you talk a little bit

[Unknown3]: more about that explain that a little more for me that brings to mind like the

[Unknown3]: markings of machines and tools on the finished product but we don't have the tools

[Unknown3]: and machines to see all we have is the marks that they leave is that a good mental

[Unknown3]: picture for people so the idea that your consciousness has these marks of

[Unknown3]: production these literal these marks of production are the traces

[Unknown3]: but that we don't know

[Unknown3]: we have to figure out what the tools are that shape them from the marks themselves

[Unknown3]: not because we know what those tools are or is there a better

[Unknown4]: yeah

[Unknown3]: way to think about that

[Unknown4]: yeah

[Unknown4]: use a more dynamic you're dead right let's use a more dynamic image

[Unknown3]: sure

[Unknown4]: and those markings and those traces or potentials and forces of

[Unknown3]: okay

[Unknown4]: conditionings and habituation and traumas and neurosis so

[Unknown3]: a

[Unknown4]: their mental forces in the subconscious in in indic terminology is karma

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: the common is conditioned actions that um

[Unknown4]: produces a certain

[Unknown3]: produces the

[Unknown4]: pattern behavior

[Unknown3]: h

[Unknown4]: so let's say smoking when you first smoke you

[Unknown3]: oh

[Unknown4]: cough and your body says to you what are you doing this is poisonous and stop but

[Unknown4]: you haven't the interpretation the delusional interpretation that i've been

[Unknown4]: implying that

[Unknown3]: see

[Unknown4]: says no you want to be with the in group so you're going to carry on and you

[Unknown4]: ignore the body

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: suppress what the body is feeling and then you you

[Unknown3]: oh

[Unknown4]: impose a certain belief

[Unknown3]: system

[Unknown4]: system about coolness or james dean or whatever's in your mind right

[Unknown4]: so so you

[Unknown4]: what happens there is that

[Unknown3]: you f with

[Unknown4]: if i were to stop after the first cigarette there wouldn't be a mark they wouldn't

[Unknown4]: leave a

[Unknown3]: trees see

[Unknown4]: trace soon the flow of

[Unknown3]: pu

[Unknown4]: consciousness would make that sort of negligible

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: as a potential of energy but were i to continue

[Unknown4]: to do it do it and do it until i'm three packets of

[Unknown3]: c

[Unknown4]: cigarettes a day

[Unknown4]: then

[Unknown3]: they

[Unknown4]: what i've done is created a massive potential and i've

[Unknown3]: was

[Unknown4]: narrowed my freedom to such an extent that now

[Unknown3]: that's wow what

[Unknown4]: i'm not smoking

[Unknown3]: w

[Unknown4]: i'm being smoked by the cigarette and i'm i'm i'm uh a slave to my

[Unknown3]: yes

[Unknown4]: habituation my habit i'm an addict

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: so what's insiders

[Unknown4]: or comic addictions cic

[Unknown3]: can call you chose call

[Unknown4]: patterns and forces and impressions and

[Unknown3]: buts forces

[Unknown3]: ch

[Unknown4]: traces that are

[Unknown3]: t

[Unknown4]: potentials that are acting in us from previous lives so

[Unknown3]: to

[Unknown4]: the indic traditions believe in some

[Unknown4]: sorrow the cycle of birth death and rebirth and we've had

[Unknown3]: so is something

[Unknown3]: count

[Unknown4]: countless lives so we have all these different potentials in us not potentials

[Unknown3]: what potential its invitation

[Unknown4]: find your true potential

[Unknown4]: but potentials as forces of delusion

[Unknown3]: seven

[Unknown4]: forces of habituation forces of misunderstanding

[Unknown4]: and so

[Unknown3]: so forgive me so

[Unknown4]: that trauma

[Unknown3]: i was gonna ask the potential so potential in this sense is always

[Unknown4]: sense

[Unknown3]: negative or is there

[Unknown4]: edward

[Unknown3]: a could there be a positive potential from a karmic standpoint

[Unknown4]: there are definitely positive

[Unknown4]: potentials there are definitely positive momentum

[Unknown3]: okay

[Unknown3]: got it

[Unknown4]: you can generate momentum according to greed hatred and delusion as the buddhist

[Unknown4]: say

[Unknown3]: got it

[Unknown4]: or you could generate momentum that promote their opposites

[Unknown3]: yep

[Unknown4]: the greed hate and delusion close down your world narrow your world into a

[Unknown4]: linguistic fascism

[Unknown3]: hey

[Unknown4]: thems and hate and love

[Unknown3]: and i like

[Unknown4]: i like i don't like write that kind of thing or

[Unknown3]: what

[Unknown4]: it can open

[Unknown3]: what is

[Unknown4]: one's up to a looseness with language

[Unknown3]: six

[Unknown4]: such that the

[Unknown4]: beauty could be seen in anything and everything

[Unknown3]: beach dc

[Unknown4]: so

[Unknown3]: so t as far for

[Unknown4]: potentials momentum karma can work both ways something more than karma needs to

[Unknown4]: occur for awakening though else in buddhism and in schism it's

[Unknown3]: not just about

[Unknown4]: not just about um

[Unknown3]: co

[Unknown4]: cultivating the ground

[Unknown3]: francisco is

[Unknown4]: such that its fertile to have the

[Unknown3]: just

[Unknown4]: sprout

[Unknown4]: sapling to burst through of a new awareness

[Unknown3]: something to just

[Unknown3]: um that

[Unknown4]: um that new awareness

[Unknown4]: it it

[Unknown3]: it isn't

[Unknown4]: it isn't something that's

[Unknown4]: caused in either sk or or or in buddhism it's not causal it's

[Unknown3]: colds and obviously people

[Unknown3]: so

[Unknown4]: not that you meditate

[Unknown3]: twenty

[Unknown4]: twenty years and then you'll wake up it's like okay you just have to do twenty

[Unknown4]: hours you know ten thousand hours this we would love to quantify these things

[Unknown3]: right right

[Unknown4]: but there's no there's no technique that can cause awakening that requires

[Unknown4]: something like it um

[Unknown3]: that's

[Unknown4]: that's more like a blessing in the sick tradition

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: or

[Unknown4]: to do with insight

[Unknown4]: praga wisdom a eureka moment we say

[Unknown3]: all the

[Unknown4]: oh the penny drops

[Unknown3]: yes

[Unknown4]: you know

[Unknown4]: people have your mother has been telling you something very simple every single

[Unknown4]: day you've been growing up because you keep making mistakes and he says you're not

[Unknown4]: listening you're not listening and

[Unknown3]: another

[Unknown4]: then you don't hear until eventually

[Unknown3]: for

[Unknown4]: fall in love with somebody and they say to you and say

[Unknown4]: you are not listening to me and suddenly you hear here for the first time

[Unknown3]: you listen to

[Unknown3]: i what for

[Unknown4]: and your podcast

[Unknown4]: which is based on a a beautiful

[Unknown3]: it is based on beautiful

[Unknown3]: s

[Unknown4]: sick beginning because it's to

[Unknown3]: to do with disc

[Unknown4]: do with the discipline and the creating of the habit of listening

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: that's the first step on this ons spirituality

[Unknown4]: is to create the habit of listen and so

[Unknown3]: i'd love to say i did that on purpose but i did not

[Unknown4]: but that that

[Unknown4]: listening

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: is something like suddenly you get but when why didn't you get it when you were

[Unknown4]: told

[Unknown4]: how long is a piece of string how many times you need to be told before you get it

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: so when you get it it's it's it's to do with

[Unknown4]: the penny dropping nobody knows when that will happen

[Unknown4]: and that's why we can't coerce people we can

[Unknown3]: yeah

[Unknown4]: just show them the way to cultivate the ground such that the possibility of the

[Unknown4]: penny dropping becomes real

[Unknown3]: right

[Unknown4]: so it's

[Unknown3]: see

[Unknown4]: mysterious how you actually wake up

[Unknown3]: yes absolutely

[Unknown3]: so and this kind of think takes us

[Unknown3]: you have your latest paper god empa in

[Unknown3]: forgive me i started reading from the top here god e fora in clay and light

[Unknown3]: talking about kind of the

[Unknown3]: sicky

[Unknown4]: she

[Unknown3]: conception of truth and even looking at some of your other work i realized that

[Unknown4]: su

[Unknown3]: that had some european flair to it

[Unknown3]: i apologized for that

[Unknown3]: you know i'm obviously coming you know i'm crossing a frontier here where i don't

[Unknown3]: like i i am trying to speak a new language but

[Unknown3]: to me you have this kind of i believe you say plural

[Unknown4]: yeah

[Unknown3]: sicky

[Unknown4]: yeah

[Unknown3]: concept of truth do you mind elaborating on that

[Unknown4]: sure

[Unknown3]: um

[Unknown4]: this might take a little while

[Unknown3]: that's fine yeah

[Unknown4]: first we got to establish what the universal is

[Unknown3]: sure

[Unknown4]: before we can understand what the pl reversal is

[Unknown3]: hey

[Unknown4]: in the and this ties to the notion of

[Unknown4]: religion

[Unknown4]: and why sky

[Unknown4]: is not well translated as religion

[Unknown4]: and um

[Unknown4]: so let let's just if you give me a little bit of time i'll sort of like elaborate

[Unknown4]: what i'm trying to suggest now try and to get to the pl reversal

[Unknown3]: no no worries and i i even had i love that you've mentioned it because i had down

[Unknown3]: here uh to put it colloquially what's your beef with zk but

[Unknown4]: oh you

[Unknown3]: but

[Unknown3]: but uh yeah take your time i mean

[Unknown3]: really that's what i'm here for so

[Unknown4]: okay great so

[Unknown4]: people understand that the social constructive force of certain categories like

[Unknown4]: race and the imposition of europeans of

[Unknown3]: september others

[Unknown4]: that category on others as inferior and them themselves being superior so

[Unknown3]: racial

[Unknown4]: racialization makes sense and people understand the history of that but very few

[Unknown4]: people

[Unknown3]: you

[Unknown4]: realize that that also happened with the term religion and so therefore

[Unknown3]: ten

[Unknown4]: religion organization

[Unknown4]: is also another force that was imposed by

[Unknown3]: five

[Unknown4]: european christians colonizing the world

[Unknown3]: world

[Unknown4]: and so

[Unknown3]: see

[Unknown4]: um

[Unknown3]: that

[Unknown4]: that category religion has its

[Unknown4]: context in the west in the abrahamic traditions in christianity basically

[Unknown3]: context the west dishes

[Unknown4]: and the notion of religion there doesn't necessarily mapp on to the notion of

[Unknown4]: religion in india

[Unknown4]: but that's what the term was used

[Unknown3]: right

[Unknown4]: so schism arose

[Unknown4]: in the eighteenth nineteenth twentieth century of

[Unknown3]: movie

[Unknown4]: buddhism

[Unknown3]: jeez

[Unknown4]: jainism hinduism dows

[Unknown4]: na start to see

[Unknown3]: yes

[Unknown4]: confucianism we're starting to see oh this isn't these aren't terms that originate

[Unknown4]: within those areas they

[Unknown3]: he

[Unknown4]: impose from a center which is europe onto the to those areas

[Unknown3]: so so

[Unknown4]: so this is the first point of post colonialism is that

[Unknown4]: hour

[Unknown3]: ho

[Unknown4]: and if we have forgotten this

[Unknown3]: we

[Unknown4]: we think that religion is natural it's a natural word

[Unknown4]: sikhs

[Unknown4]: janes buddhists hindus think religion is a natural word on a popular level many

[Unknown3]: chicken used to

[Unknown4]: people scholars scholars realize

[Unknown3]: so so it's pretty nice

[Unknown4]: the

[Unknown3]: yeah so

[Unknown4]: inappropriate

[Unknown3]: cook

[Unknown4]: nature of the term and its imposition

[Unknown3]: me too did

[Unknown4]: we

[Unknown4]: we have forgotten

[Unknown3]: we have a book

[Unknown4]: the inscriptions

[Unknown3]: descriptions

[Unknown4]: through

[Unknown3]: two

[Unknown4]: pain

[Unknown4]: that were put

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: on all the colonized

[Unknown4]: one of the legacies is um

[Unknown3]: what are the legacies is

[Unknown4]: language

[Unknown3]: black

[Unknown4]: for instance

[Unknown4]: uh

[Unknown3]: people

[Unknown4]: people know that karma might

[Unknown3]: one

[Unknown4]: be indic or

[Unknown4]: mantra might be indic or guru might be indic but they don't know that

[Unknown3]: my money

[Unknown4]: pajamas

[Unknown3]: the

[Unknown3]: shampoo

[Unknown4]: shampoo juggernaut bungalow lute bangles cries

[Unknown3]: co

[Unknown4]: gort the khaki pundit calico japs the hot toddy

[Unknown4]: the punch sherbet jungle fog people might think that's um snoop dog

[Unknown4]: with these fun life but uh fugue is an indic word shaw

[Unknown4]: cushion avatar chit typhoon catamaran dingy

[Unknown3]: she i was just sorry talking right mhm

[Unknown4]: coi durees

[Unknown4]: chutney et cetera so here we have

[Unknown3]: japanese

[Unknown4]: what we think are english terms

[Unknown3]: the du's the

[Unknown4]: but that's the product of a historical process called colonization

[Unknown3]: persons organization

[Unknown4]: which expanded the ma english becomes a master language because he

[Unknown3]: soup

[Unknown4]: absorbs these for the necessity of communication control

[Unknown3]: so

[Unknown4]: and domination and the legacy of that is that we have forgotten because the west

[Unknown4]: doesn't talk about its dark side it talks about liberty freedom etc

[Unknown4]: uh and and

[Unknown4]: people grow growing up in the west like my students here at hofstra

[Unknown4]: the pjs and the shampoo that i have any idea so we have forgotten not only the

[Unknown4]: indic origin but we have forgotten

[Unknown4]: that we forgot

[Unknown3]: right

[Unknown4]: there's no memory of forgetting it's not it's like it what do you mean

[Unknown4]: because it's not individual it's a collective so here

[Unknown3]: so here

[Unknown4]: the term religion is also

[Unknown3]: one

[Unknown3]: co

[Unknown4]: constituted through

[Unknown4]: a whole

[Unknown3]: i

[Unknown4]: massive universal forgetting of

[Unknown3]: oh

[Unknown4]: abrahamic traditions not being similar to indic traditions and not

[Unknown3]: what

[Unknown4]: being similar to asian traditions so

[Unknown3]: so what

[Unknown4]: on the one hand we could reject the term

[Unknown4]: and displace

[Unknown3]: history

[Unknown4]: religion and try

[Unknown3]: probably

[Unknown4]: and use our own term like dum go dm

[Unknown3]: hey

[Unknown4]: uh skaro darma

[Unknown4]: is

[Unknown3]: box

[Unknown4]: righteousness law duty

[Unknown3]: close

[Unknown4]: cosmic order

[Unknown4]: has a whole

[Unknown3]: cold big

[Unknown4]: very complicated

[Unknown4]: massive word with a huge history like religion has religio has a huge history in

[Unknown3]: i she

[Unknown4]: the west

[Unknown3]: um

[Unknown4]: or we could just simply say okay we'll

[Unknown3]: music too

[Unknown4]: use the term but we have to qualify it so

[Unknown3]: right

[Unknown4]: i'll do that now very sort of briefly because then i can answer your question

[Unknown4]: about the pl reversal

[Unknown3]: sure sure yeah yeah yeah uh let me just real quick so am i tracking the same way

[Unknown3]: because i've run into this my the few brushes i've had with

[Unknown3]: indian philosophy or chinese philosophy i was immediately struck by it was it how

[Unknown3]: western it

[Unknown4]: start

[Unknown3]: felt to impose this like well this is the

[Unknown4]: system

[Unknown3]: religion and this is the philosophy right that split isn't really apparent you

[Unknown3]: know in something like confucianism and am i is this is this what we're talking

[Unknown4]: that's exactly right that's exactly right in fact

[Unknown3]: about okay

[Unknown3]: just make sure i'm tracking with you

[Unknown4]: yeah

[Unknown4]: greek philosophy

[Unknown3]: vegetables

[Unknown4]: is much more relatable to indian philosophy because

[Unknown3]: hey

[Unknown4]: greek philosophy was to know thyself

[Unknown4]: was to do with

[Unknown3]: your cell phone

[Unknown4]: self knowledge thus the knowledge but philosophy today has become object focused

[Unknown4]: not subject focus and

[Unknown3]: and it's like

[Unknown4]: it's like philosophize important

[Unknown3]: questions that

[Unknown4]: questions i mean generally speaking and

[Unknown3]: and that tru

[Unknown4]: that has split off from religion which

[Unknown3]: that's good

[Unknown4]: asked the who am i question

[Unknown3]: h

[Unknown4]: they were originally together so philosophy and religion have their own history in

[Unknown4]: the west which are

[Unknown3]: second

[Unknown4]: separated and therefore it becomes deeply problematic i mean

[Unknown3]: six

[Unknown4]: is a religion buddhism is a religion and it's also philosophical but

[Unknown3]: right

[Unknown4]: it's a certain kind of philosophy that um i'll have to clarify

[Unknown3]: five later he's act so that's one of his residences extension

[Unknown4]: later is anti philosophical and that's why it has resonances with the existential

[Unknown4]: philosophers nica hedger sra etc so

[Unknown3]: so

[Unknown4]: it's a certain kind of

[Unknown3]: five

[Unknown4]: anti continental philosophy

[Unknown3]: business

[Unknown4]: resonates much better with

[Unknown4]: indic philosophy so let me just outline the three families of religious tradition

[Unknown4]: so the abrahamic judaism christianity and islam what what do they

[Unknown4]: their monarchy

[Unknown4]: traditions where you have god as the sovereign who

[Unknown3]: dis sweet and so

[Unknown3]: keeps

[Unknown4]: gives um

[Unknown4]: a

[Unknown3]: the repeat school

[Unknown4]: revealed law not human created

[Unknown4]: revelation from god through his uh angels and emissaries

[Unknown3]: with the issue from so

[Unknown4]: humans capture that either in tablets of stone or whatever in scripture in the

[Unknown3]: you capture that

[Unknown4]: tora in the bible and the kuran

[Unknown3]: i

[Unknown4]: and that they ought to follow

[Unknown3]: so to agree

[Unknown4]: that they ought to obey the commandments the law thea the ten commandments etc

[Unknown3]: so we have one

[Unknown4]: so here we have a model of religion where human beings

[Unknown4]: are

[Unknown3]: are

[Unknown4]: separated from the creator the creator created them

[Unknown3]: separated from the play the complete

[Unknown4]: so creator and creation or

[Unknown3]: four

[Unknown4]: at different levels

[Unknown4]: the

[Unknown3]: the

[Unknown4]: king is not the subject

[Unknown4]: the subject has to follow the law of the king

[Unknown3]: right

[Unknown4]: right so here we have a

[Unknown4]: dividing line which you don't get in index traditions you have a dotted line a

[Unknown3]: a life that you don't

[Unknown4]: permeable line

[Unknown3]: that's a good so

[Unknown4]: so here so the way to be religious in a very

[Unknown3]: quick

[Unknown4]: quick caricature of abrahamic

[Unknown4]: traditions intensely and immensely diverse traditions i'm summarizing in such a

[Unknown3]: dis intense v

[Unknown3]: don't worry i yes that's totally i mean i've

[Unknown4]: frequent manner

[Unknown4]: when

[Unknown3]: asked you to do this in

[Unknown3]: roughly an hour i mean that's not fair to you so i

[Unknown4]: this

[Unknown3]: summaries ex expected yes

[Unknown4]: so in abrahamic traditions you're to obey

[Unknown4]: the revealed law of the true king

[Unknown4]: and

[Unknown4]: but

[Unknown3]: that's not

[Unknown4]: that's not the model

[Unknown4]: obedience isn't the key thing the

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: keynote of the religious traditions that sprout in india hinduism buddhism ism

[Unknown4]: schism all those traditions have

[Unknown3]: have a different type just

[Unknown4]: a different family a different setup and they

[Unknown4]: they

[Unknown4]: begin with delusion

[Unknown4]: maya

[Unknown3]: oh

[Unknown4]: that we're we're in a de like plato's cave

[Unknown4]: that there are shadows on the wall that we think are real because all we can see

[Unknown4]: are the shadows we don't see

[Unknown3]: to the light

[Unknown4]: the light behind is the fire behind us and we have to go through a process of

[Unknown4]: transformation of leave in the cave to get to

[Unknown3]: you

[Unknown4]: real light which is not uh inside the cave at which blinds us the truth is

[Unknown4]: undigested initially the same thing is with the indict philosophies that we we're

[Unknown3]: what about just

[Unknown4]: we're trapped in an illusion

[Unknown4]: and that we have to not obey

[Unknown4]: the

[Unknown3]: the boys

[Unknown4]: laws within that illusion

[Unknown3]: that's

[Unknown4]: but break out of that illusion the

[Unknown3]: the water is

[Unknown4]: buddha is a title that means the awakened one

[Unknown3]: what

[Unknown4]: one has to wake up from the illusion that we got trapped by

[Unknown3]: so

[Unknown4]: so in the indie context it's a dramatic play

[Unknown3]: a drama

[Unknown4]: a drama that we've got caught in and the keynote is how to wake up from that drama

[Unknown3]: what is the

[Unknown4]: what is a drama composed of the

[Unknown3]: the cos of green

[Unknown4]: comic traces of greed hatred and delusion of in schism it would be calm crowd lo

[Unknown4]: more hunk which are

[Unknown3]: s

[Unknown4]: similar vices anger lost greed

[Unknown4]: covets fascination delusion pride

[Unknown3]: christmas plus

[Unknown3]: that's

[Unknown4]: that's what creates the

[Unknown4]: um

[Unknown3]: what's

[Unknown4]: brings us back each time is that we've ha we've

[Unknown3]: i

[Unknown4]: acted ignorant

[Unknown4]: in delusion

[Unknown4]: selfishly that has blinded us

[Unknown3]: selfish that's nice

[Unknown3]: you each type

[Unknown4]: if each action that we have is

[Unknown3]: is

[Unknown4]: planting a seed

[Unknown4]: let's say it's on very fertile ground which is what our minds are hearts are very

[Unknown3]: that s on pretty good time just for our minds hearts very of each fact is a c

[Unknown4]: fertile grounds and in which action is a seed

[Unknown4]: then

[Unknown3]: then there'll be a true f

[Unknown4]: there'll be a tree sprouting another tree sping so much so that eventually we'll

[Unknown4]: be in a forest which blocks out the light

[Unknown3]: good

[Unknown4]: and you'll be in darkness and in your darkness is

[Unknown3]: something

[Unknown4]: of your own making

[Unknown3]: so we

[Unknown4]: so here is the same analogy that our beginning

[Unknown3]: he

[Unknown4]: is that we're trapped by our own deeds trapped by our own actions and we have to

[Unknown4]: wake up from that and to see that

[Unknown3]: i think it's

[Unknown4]: okay so in the abrahamic traditions what you

[Unknown3]: you get

[Unknown4]: get because of the notion of

[Unknown3]: subject

[Unknown4]: sovereignty

[Unknown3]: so

[Unknown4]: sovereign rule the king rule the divine right of kings the rise of the nation

[Unknown4]: states a democratic process a president etc you got a continuation of the idea

[Unknown4]: of

[Unknown3]: oh

[Unknown4]: one

[Unknown3]: one

[Unknown4]: revelation being the true revelation in

[Unknown3]: hey

[Unknown4]: fact christianity makes up this distinction itself it

[Unknown3]: he starts to talk about religion and philos

[Unknown4]: starts to talk about true religion and false religion such that paganism hedonism

[Unknown4]: etc is now false religion gnosticism etcetera all that is false religion

[Unknown3]: and right

[Unknown4]: and with the arrival of this new revelation we get

[Unknown3]: so

[Unknown4]: true religion now this

[Unknown3]: this is the

[Unknown4]: is the background to the notion of

[Unknown4]: the universal truth which is

[Unknown3]: mo

[Unknown4]: theological the first

[Unknown3]: s

[Unknown4]: science is theology theology is the queen of the

[Unknown3]: sa

[Unknown4]: sciences academia trans mutates from theology from a

[Unknown3]: umhum

[Unknown4]: religious world view into eventually a secular

[Unknown4]: although i would argue that that process was never final

[Unknown3]: we all

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: and so there's a a theological underpinning to all secular concepts and so

[Unknown3]: so you

[Unknown4]: here we have the arising then of a notion of a universe which is always

[Unknown4]: top down which is

[Unknown3]: just

[Unknown4]: the which is what that t how that tradition understands itself here's the law

[Unknown3]: the po

[Unknown4]: revealed it's

[Unknown4]: just that now god is dead we revealing

[Unknown3]: it's just a man one

[Unknown3]: new bye me

[Unknown4]: the wrong man reason is the top

[Unknown4]: very

[Unknown3]: interesting

[Unknown4]: interesting side point here is that

[Unknown4]: if we

[Unknown3]: you see

[Unknown4]: see the triangle of

[Unknown3]: so

[Unknown4]: medieval period or

[Unknown3]: for

[Unknown4]: ancient period where

[Unknown3]: we call so reservation

[Unknown4]: god is at the top and revelation is the only way we connect to

[Unknown3]: too

[Unknown4]: man to humanity

[Unknown4]: when god is dead during the

[Unknown3]: when what de

[Unknown3]: ask

[Unknown4]: enlightenment renaissance enlightenment and nha says that and we killed him he

[Unknown4]: says

[Unknown3]: yes right

[Unknown4]: when he says that

[Unknown4]: what what we get is a secularization of

[Unknown3]: of

[Unknown3]: ah as cst over our

[Unknown4]: as immanuel cancers dare to think of our thinking critical faculties

[Unknown4]: data to question authority question the authority of religion question the

[Unknown3]: still so question so question what like this to that

[Unknown4]: authority of god question the authority of this top down revelation

[Unknown3]: ten

[Unknown4]: telescope capers revolution the we

[Unknown3]: you got

[Unknown4]: don't revolve

[Unknown4]: around the earth the earth revolves around the sun it's heliocentric the charge

[Unknown3]: chocolate sauces

[Unknown4]: of science et cetera etc so this massive paradigm shift that occurs in europe

[Unknown3]: you

[Unknown4]: gives man this idea that they are gods

[Unknown3]: right

[Unknown4]: that that reason is the top ultimate

[Unknown3]: yeah

[Unknown4]: truth

[Unknown4]: but reason starts to create

[Unknown3]: the same

[Unknown4]: the same hierarchy when it goes to colonizing other people so they

[Unknown3]: good stuff

[Unknown4]: start to give the law of

[Unknown3]: she

[Unknown4]: seeing other traditions either

[Unknown3]: i didn't come

[Unknown4]: convert them to christianity or islam etc or

[Unknown3]: oh his father said four

[Unknown3]: uh she died

[Unknown4]: see them as servi developing level right so so

[Unknown3]: that's good

[Unknown4]: that's the the history of so i just mean to

[Unknown4]: what modernity didn't realize

[Unknown4]: and i'm of the school of thought that aligns with de colonialism that no modernity

[Unknown4]: can be thought of without colonial

[Unknown3]: so what do you see

[Unknown4]: so when we say modernity we always have to always say colonialism

[Unknown3]: but

[Unknown4]: colonial modernity and

[Unknown3]: i just

[Unknown4]: there's a reason for that i might return to towards the end but when what

[Unknown4]: so rather than have a triangle like this

[Unknown3]: like this

[Unknown3]: that sort of

[Unknown4]: so it's a top down where where

[Unknown3]: regard

[Unknown4]: god the infinite the unknown and we're man at the bottom small little sinners

[Unknown3]: that's

[Unknown4]: that's inverted because now we we have man but he thinks this

[Unknown3]: what

[Unknown4]: we can know things

[Unknown4]: which is a very non religious idea

[Unknown4]: secular idea is we can know things we can know things in others the term

[Unknown4]: interpretive layer

[Unknown3]: hey

[Unknown4]: is truth speaking not the encounter with the other the mysterious

[Unknown4]: but

[Unknown3]: what

[Unknown4]: what the modern man didn't realize is the rise of psychology the

[Unknown3]: he was disappoint

[Unknown4]: rise of the subconscious now there's revelations from the subconscious like i

[Unknown4]: myself experienced

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: in the awaken so now there's a revelation called gusta yong called nature the

[Unknown4]: subconscious

[Unknown4]: the

[Unknown3]: o oh

[Unknown4]: earth the whole world the nature is the

[Unknown4]: subconscious inside the subconscious for him with the

[Unknown3]: this what do you think so

[Unknown3]: want like

[Unknown4]: archetypes that had to be

[Unknown3]: connected

[Unknown4]: connected with and revealed for this individuation to a true person and

[Unknown4]: transformation so

[Unknown4]: revelation wasn't done away with

[Unknown3]: we should

[Unknown4]: the unknown wasn't done away with the inexplicable wasn't done away with

[Unknown3]: i can't be

[Unknown4]: it can't be

[Unknown3]: right

[Unknown4]: i mean any human being who is beyond four years old should realize that right

[Unknown3]: right the cracks keep showing up if

[Unknown4]: yeah

[Unknown3]: you enforce that interpretive layer the cracks keep showing up

[Unknown4]: yeah exactly the cement keeps cracking

[Unknown3]: yeah

[Unknown4]: yeah so that was in aside basically what

[Unknown3]: what

[Unknown4]: i've done now is to say why

[Unknown3]: white

[Unknown4]: it is that the universal is problematic

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: because it's speaking of one center

[Unknown3]: h

[Unknown4]: it's just christian saying this is the truth what the plore that top down and that

[Unknown4]: was institutionalized

[Unknown4]: by

[Unknown3]: why

[Unknown4]: one thousand nine hundred thirties eighty four point six percent of the globe was

[Unknown4]: colonized by european christian races

[Unknown3]: h

[Unknown4]: that's practically the globe and what they did wasn't just

[Unknown4]: genocidal physically of the people it

[Unknown3]: genocide is it

[Unknown3]: he

[Unknown4]: was also epistemic

[Unknown4]: they destroyed indigenous knowledge systems and those

[Unknown3]: those respons one

[Unknown4]: indigenous knowledge systems one of them being sicky

[Unknown3]: what

[Unknown3]: four

[Unknown4]: fifteen sixteenth century so much later

[Unknown3]: centuries of state

[Unknown4]: was able to

[Unknown4]: survive rather than the ancient ones

[Unknown3]: survive what

[Unknown4]: because

[Unknown3]: because

[Unknown4]: it had different notions so so the pl reversal resonates with the way six

[Unknown3]: s

[Unknown4]: understand

[Unknown4]: if the

[Unknown3]: the university

[Unknown4]: universal is top down

[Unknown3]: school

[Unknown4]: exclusionary and you have to convert or

[Unknown3]: did you

[Unknown4]: be a part of the club to

[Unknown3]: to get that sister

[Unknown4]: get access to it the pl

[Unknown3]: food

[Unknown4]: reversal is the complete opposite it's ground up and it's

[Unknown3]: s

[Unknown4]: of from multiple voices

[Unknown3]: horses

[Unknown4]: um

[Unknown3]: well

[Unknown4]: so

[Unknown3]: so what happens

[Unknown4]: i mean uh that answers that question but i need to elaborate

[Unknown3]: sure

[Unknown4]: if you want me to

[Unknown3]: oh yeah

[Unknown4]: if you if there's other questions you have i can tag it in

[Unknown3]: well it's really interesting because i myself am a devout christian and as i'm

[Unknown3]: listening to you one of the things that i've done digging back into the church

[Unknown3]: fathers is this idea one of i don't know if you're familiar with theosis the idea

[Unknown4]: yeah

[Unknown3]: of participating in the divine nature through our fellowship obviously for

[Unknown4]: say

[Unknown3]: the christian there's that barrier is always f like finally impermeable right but

[Unknown3]: there can be

[Unknown3]: there is a

[Unknown4]: christmas

[Unknown3]: very strong not in america as much but well you could say from the charismatic

[Unknown3]: side but there's a very strong mystical tradition and that idea of the ineffable

[Unknown3]: and so i do see some some crossover with what you're saying

[Unknown4]: yeah

[Unknown3]: am that is i mean are those notions similar okay gotcha

[Unknown4]: that's absolutely right that's absolutely right and i was going to mention it

[Unknown4]: myself that

[Unknown3]: yeah

[Unknown4]: that broad caricature overlooks

[Unknown3]: sorry to steal your thunder yes

[Unknown4]: overlooks the mystical dimension in

[Unknown3]: yeah

[Unknown4]: kabala in sufism

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: in christian mystics female and male

[Unknown3]: uh across the pool we gave

[Unknown4]: across the board with their language you know myster eco said take me to the god

[Unknown4]: beyond god

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: he because he saw the interpretive layer being problematic

[Unknown3]: yeah

[Unknown4]: and that's what mystics do all eleventh century in islam gets

[Unknown4]: executed for saying al huck i i'm the truth and while he's getting executed

[Unknown3]: ex to see how i find the truth the wise

[Unknown3]: you say

[Unknown4]: he says i

[Unknown3]: i won't be f my sp

[Unknown4]: won't retract my statement

[Unknown4]: so

[Unknown3]: so i'd like

[Unknown4]: i'm right but you're right to kill me

[Unknown4]: so carry on excuse me and which is which is beautiful

[Unknown3]: something very socratic about that yes

[Unknown4]: yeah exactly

[Unknown4]: it's like um you know there's there's real importance to the

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: hard line as well as there is to the permeable line there's

[Unknown3]: hey

[Unknown4]: real importance about language and interpretive layer that's

[Unknown3]: hey

[Unknown4]: why the sikh tradition doesn't

[Unknown4]: ha has to integrate them

[Unknown3]: hey

[Unknown4]: what become aesthetic and leave language and become silent

[Unknown3]: right

[Unknown4]: right live in monasteries

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: yet you have to engage with the world you have to engage with language but how do

[Unknown4]: you engage with the world and language that's the crucial question

[Unknown3]: hey

[Unknown4]: and um what is language

[Unknown4]: the language

[Unknown3]: why

[Unknown4]: in the si tradition like in the

[Unknown4]: christian tradition saint john's gospel in the

[Unknown3]: christian s john

[Unknown4]: beginning was the word and the word was with

[Unknown3]: he would

[Unknown3]: start

[Unknown4]: god and it was good

[Unknown4]: word is in the beginning same with the sick tradition chath the word nom the name

[Unknown4]: and guru or in the beginning they're there so this is a very interesting extension

[Unknown4]: elaboration of what

[Unknown3]: what

[Unknown3]: all of them stuff

[Unknown4]: our understanding of language could be

[Unknown3]: hey

[Unknown4]: now we should talk at some point about the poetic the musical as opposed to pros

[Unknown3]: yes

[Unknown4]: and the conceptual so in other words thinking and feeling being contrasted

[Unknown4]: because that that relates directly to

[Unknown3]: it was a st

[Unknown3]: how how

[Unknown4]: how how do we get out how do we get

[Unknown3]: good idea

[Unknown4]: out of the entrapment of the delusion that we've ourselves created

[Unknown3]: well please share about it cause that sounds fasc i mean my so my background one

[Unknown3]: so much of this resonates with the purpose of this the idea of chasing the via

[Unknown3]: thon comes from job twenty eight where it says you cannot capture leviathan that

[Unknown3]: and it's really interesting how like

[Unknown3]: uh and perhaps this is not the correct way to think about it but for me like when

[Unknown3]: you talk about colonialism it hurt christianity right it it basically the idea

[Unknown3]: that you can figure out god is a foolish notion because he is so high above right

[Unknown3]: and so this idea

[Unknown4]: like

[Unknown3]: that truth is something that we capture and we make our own instead of something

[Unknown3]: that we can look at in awe and something that we should continue to pursue and the

[Unknown3]: pursuit is worthy but it's never final

[Unknown3]: is there's a lot that you've said that resonates

[Unknown4]: yeah yeah

[Unknown3]: and so and then my my background's in philosophy of art so if you want

[Unknown4]: you want

[Unknown3]: to talk about

[Unknown3]: poetry and and dance in terms of awaken that sounds awesome so you know i want to

[Unknown3]: be respectful of your time but please by all means go ahead

[Unknown4]: well i i have the old afternoon we can go on i have

[Unknown3]: okay okay

[Unknown4]: time maybe i shouldn't disclose that too quickly but i have a lot of time

[Unknown3]: oh i got you no well then please please buy me sure

[Unknown4]: okay so

[Unknown4]: when i saw

[Unknown4]: chasing leviathan immediately thought of

[Unknown3]: take the i

[Unknown4]: movie dick and ahab

[Unknown3]: yes

[Unknown4]: and i thought yeah

[Unknown3]: yes i get that a lot yes

[Unknown4]: this is exactly the metaphor and

[Unknown4]: one interesting thing in terms of difference between the abrahamic family of

[Unknown4]: religious

[Unknown3]: hey

[Unknown4]: tradition and the indic family we haven't even talked about the east asian family

[Unknown3]: right

[Unknown4]: which is also another different

[Unknown4]: paradigm

[Unknown3]: yeah

[Unknown4]: in which they operate

[Unknown4]: is the

[Unknown3]: he still

[Unknown4]: that

[Unknown4]: the notion of capturing the truth is immediately recognized as deeply problematic

[Unknown4]: in the indic and east asian families of religious tradition lapses doctor ching

[Unknown4]: begins with the doo that can be followed is not the eternal doo the name that can

[Unknown4]: be named is not the eternal name

[Unknown4]: the dow that can be follow is

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: not the two

[Unknown4]: the e total down

[Unknown3]: interesting

[Unknown4]: and the name that can be named is not the eternal name

[Unknown4]: similarly with the good grants the six scripture

[Unknown3]: so side

[Unknown3]: uh after the movie

[Unknown4]: after the mule month the very first line of the very first

[Unknown4]: verse on the first page it says sa sosa hove j lak which means no matter how many

[Unknown3]: school state saids

[Unknown4]: times i think about the way it cannot be thought

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: so then you think well what are the one thousand five hundred thirty pages that

[Unknown4]: follow talking about

[Unknown3]: well and that's like you talked about you still have to engage with language

[Unknown3]: because

[Unknown4]: yes

[Unknown3]: and i wanted to ask you about this and you started you started to do it even with

[Unknown3]: religion how do you recover this kind of pre colonial and sorry

[Unknown3]: how do you handle the future of sicky because is it a

[Unknown4]: yeah

[Unknown3]: recovery is that what you're

[Unknown3]: attempting is it evolution is it a dialectic like

[Unknown4]: right right yeah yeah

[Unknown4]: right

[Unknown3]: some kind of fusion

[Unknown4]: yeah

[Unknown3]: what do you see is this future that you're progressing towards

[Unknown4]: well

[Unknown4]: it is never recovery

[Unknown4]: for many reasons

[Unknown3]: he

[Unknown4]: but simply because the past can't be repeated

[Unknown4]: but the past isn't the past

[Unknown4]: so

[Unknown4]: in other words the body is a dynamic river heraclitus

[Unknown3]: just

[Unknown4]: talks about you can't step into the same river twice we are that that's what we

[Unknown4]: are our bodies or that river and we

[Unknown3]: yeah

[Unknown4]: can't step into that river twice but what

[Unknown3]: what you

[Unknown4]: do we do we totally ignore the bodies changing forces

[Unknown3]: season two

[Unknown4]: and the sensor and the information we ignore it and we live in the

[Unknown3]: so

[Unknown4]: story

[Unknown4]: oh i'm a man i'm this and that and so we keep missing the dynamism so it's not

[Unknown4]: about recovering it's about entering into the river that we are

[Unknown3]: before

[Unknown4]: now

[Unknown3]: not buck

[Unknown4]: that re entering into the river there is no other

[Unknown4]: there

[Unknown3]: it is

[Unknown4]: is no um

[Unknown4]: a

[Unknown4]: problem there's no context in which re immersion can't occur so

[Unknown3]: form is not

[Unknown3]: the

[Unknown4]: the transl transition into another language the

[Unknown3]: the transition

[Unknown4]: transition into another context the transition into another paradigm

[Unknown3]: this

[Unknown4]: isn't a problem

[Unknown3]: you feel buy because

[Unknown4]: if we are able because uh in any context in any language in any gender in any race

[Unknown4]: we can dip into the truth

[Unknown3]: hey

[Unknown4]: it's just how we are able to

[Unknown4]: use

[Unknown3]: you

[Unknown4]: our languages

[Unknown4]: return to the translation process return to the encounter process

[Unknown3]: i

[Unknown4]: and allow that re immersion to occur

[Unknown3]: read good

[Unknown4]: reintegration re immersion to occur

[Unknown4]: so the project here is well one

[Unknown3]: so okay yeah

[Unknown3]: one

[Unknown4]: thing i should say just a sort of a background

[Unknown3]: yeah it's nice

[Unknown4]: islam and buddhism are probably the most diametrically opposed

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: and why because

[Unknown3]: how many

[Unknown4]: mohammad was criticized by people around him saying you're not a saint you're not

[Unknown4]: a prophet you don't have any miracles

[Unknown3]: and these they

[Unknown4]: look at these profits that they have these miracles where's yours and what he says

[Unknown4]: is

[Unknown3]: the

[Unknown4]: the koran

[Unknown3]: he's

[Unknown4]: is my miracle for twenty two years

[Unknown4]: from the mouth i was able to take the dictation without error

[Unknown4]: and so

[Unknown3]: so

[Unknown4]: i'm the seal of the prophets there's no need for another revelation because i did

[Unknown4]: it the

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: mistakes of judaism the mistakes in islamic eyes

[Unknown3]: right rat

[Unknown4]: the mistake of the trinity the re interpretation of monotheism et

[Unknown4]: cetera so here we have a notion of

[Unknown3]: she said

[Unknown3]: home

[Unknown4]: uh

[Unknown4]: at a truth

[Unknown4]: that

[Unknown3]: that's tru

[Unknown4]: is captured

[Unknown3]: so food

[Unknown4]: opposed

[Unknown4]: to

[Unknown3]: two i one s

[Unknown4]: and therefore untranslated

[Unknown3]: right

[Unknown4]: it

[Unknown4]: you cannot change arabic you can't you can't translate

[Unknown4]: buddhism

[Unknown3]: who

[Unknown4]: is that there's a story of the buddha in the

[Unknown4]: in terra of aa buddhis the buddhism has three turnings of the wheel of darma the

[Unknown3]: teachers

[Unknown4]: teachings of the buddha has three

[Unknown3]: that's a good

[Unknown4]: massive revolutions which isn't a splitting

[Unknown3]: sticky

[Unknown4]: she's very

[Unknown3]: you just like

[Unknown4]: interesting like the arboreal notion of tradition in the abrahamic there's a

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: split a schism and a diverse and this council that council the eastern orthodoxy

[Unknown4]: etc all these splits in buddhism is a wheel and what does a wheel do it rolls

[Unknown3]: yeah yeah

[Unknown4]: it's natural to have a revolution

[Unknown3]: yeah

[Unknown4]: so here we have an indic notion of revolution as being natural

[Unknown4]: expected the

[Unknown3]: the

[Unknown4]: first turning of the wheel of dama is the first turning

[Unknown3]: is the second

[Unknown4]: there's a second toney mahayana then there's a third

[Unknown3]: thirty one

[Unknown4]: turning vagana and the

[Unknown3]: six

[Unknown4]: schism is is exactly like that that

[Unknown3]: exactly but uh

[Unknown4]: it has an incredible

[Unknown3]: t

[Unknown4]: evolution from guru

[Unknown3]: north

[Unknown4]: nanak the

[Unknown3]: find

[Unknown4]: founder gregg ads armed us

[Unknown3]: which chan

[Unknown4]: this ten gurus throughout the ten gurus is incredible

[Unknown3]: two

[Unknown4]: creativity poetry and expansion and

[Unknown4]: consolidation in various ways which is wonderful to see so here so the other

[Unknown3]: teach

[Unknown3]: what

[Unknown4]: other context so let me just finish that point about islam

[Unknown3]: like what

[Unknown4]: and buddhism

[Unknown4]: islam exists by resisting translation

[Unknown3]: this like persisting t

[Unknown3]: who

[Unknown4]: buddhism can only exist through translations

[Unknown4]: and that's how sicky is related it can only exist by relating to the other to the

[Unknown3]: and that's how se is

[Unknown4]: other context

[Unknown3]: it

[Unknown4]: it's a little bit more complicated than that because of

[Unknown4]: gorby

[Unknown3]: bo

[Unknown3]: and

[Unknown4]: and the the

[Unknown3]: sign

[Unknown4]: semantic poetic structure

[Unknown3]: structure

[Unknown4]: of the music and hymns

[Unknown3]: no

[Unknown4]: have a certain untranslated ability to them

[Unknown3]: interesting

[Unknown4]: so it's a little bit more complicated than how i'm presenting it i'm just trying

[Unknown4]: to present at a macro level certain kinds of important differences of paradigm

[Unknown4]: level

[Unknown3]: and

[Unknown4]: i don't know if i've tied up all the loose ends just then

[Unknown3]: i well i think the next place that i would love to hear and i think it's a

[Unknown3]: continuation of a question that

[Unknown3]: my fault i got i got excited and got distracted but the we were talking about the

[Unknown3]: poetic and

[Unknown4]: yeah yeah

[Unknown3]: you started to mention

[Unknown4]: yeah

[Unknown3]: and forgive the use of the term but hymns

[Unknown4]: yeah yeah yeah

[Unknown3]: ah so what is that you know you said they're untranslated what about them makes

[Unknown3]: them untranslated and what makes that special

[Unknown4]: right so i wouldn't like to

[Unknown3]: to see

[Unknown4]: say that they're untranslated

[Unknown4]: but there's certain kind of

[Unknown3]: you have to do

[Unknown4]: inevitability about the

[Unknown4]: product of a historical process

[Unknown3]: process

[Unknown4]: it occurred this way

[Unknown3]: right

[Unknown4]: and it occurred in this area through this

[Unknown4]: master this human being

[Unknown3]: how do you like

[Unknown4]: and these are the languages that person spoke

[Unknown4]: but what sikhs do

[Unknown4]: in

[Unknown4]: terms of

[Unknown3]: ch

[Unknown3]: see

[Unknown4]: seeing oneself as another which is how the sick tradition expands um

[Unknown4]: go against the notion of the islamic way of understanding the koran

[Unknown4]: the islamic way of understanding mecca the islamic way of understanding huge

[Unknown3]: no

[Unknown4]: just just for one of the

[Unknown3]: the jobs that

[Unknown4]: john sucks which are these birth

[Unknown3]: student

[Unknown4]: stories birth narratives grew night travels all around the world and in four

[Unknown4]: directions these

[Unknown4]: udasi they called call and he goes to mecca and on the way to mecca he falls

[Unknown3]: awe

[Unknown4]: asleep cause he's he's travelling by foot from india

[Unknown3]: so yeah

[Unknown4]: he travels for over two decades

[Unknown3]: yeah yeah

[Unknown4]: which is very interesting that gr nark

[Unknown3]: i is a week

[Unknown4]: after his awakening

[Unknown4]: begins

[Unknown3]: virginia

[Unknown4]: a journey of meeting people

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: and traveling rather than teaching

[Unknown4]: so

[Unknown3]: so twenty years

[Unknown4]: for twenty years he ed

[Unknown3]: and

[Unknown4]: engages in dialogue with all different traditions

[Unknown4]: north

[Unknown3]: north south

[Unknown4]: southeast west he travels whereas the buddhists the in buddhism

[Unknown3]: fun thing it

[Unknown4]: the

[Unknown4]: buddha's life story it culminates with the awakening and then he teaches what he

[Unknown3]: what is my story cold

[Unknown4]: found out

[Unknown3]: hey

[Unknown4]: for forty years

[Unknown4]: gron' awakening is the beginning point not the end it's not a culmination

[Unknown3]: it's

[Unknown4]: it's now the starting point of

[Unknown3]: or

[Unknown4]: connecting to all

[Unknown4]: different religious traditions remember

[Unknown3]: six

[Unknown4]: schism is on the cusp of modernity martin luther's gren times

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: and the therefore it's got incredible hindsight

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: punjab is at an area where people enter india from the greeks

[Unknown3]: that exactly

[Unknown4]: alexander third century bc to others from the east as well so

[Unknown3]: so sometimes

[Unknown4]: punjab is very rich

[Unknown3]: so

[Unknown4]: soil and and being late on the cusp of modernity it's able to

[Unknown3]: speak to

[Unknown4]: grow in a very mature

[Unknown3]: sure this is a good question so

[Unknown4]: manner because it's at the confluence of all the paradigms of religious traditions

[Unknown4]: and therefore it's incredibly mature in its reflections

[Unknown3]: three

[Unknown4]: i i mean i'm saying that but i'm not trying to see it as like we're the best i'm

[Unknown4]: not trying to stay it that way i'm just saying saying that the it's not ancient

[Unknown3]: yeah yeah

[Unknown4]: it's not an ancient tradition it's sort of like new and has the problems of

[Unknown3]: eight

[Unknown4]: being new as well

[Unknown4]: so the poetry

[Unknown3]: uh forgive me i just want to really quickly so and i'm going to absolutely butcher

[Unknown3]: this name i

[Unknown4]: a good nic

[Unknown3]: guinan

[Unknown3]: he he is one of the ten gos

[Unknown4]: the other founder

[Unknown3]: he's the he's the first of the ten girls okay just wanted to make sure thank you

[Unknown4]: yeah yes so gronk um so he goes to

[Unknown4]: the huge

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: goes to the mecca i fall asleep and his

[Unknown3]: fee of point

[Unknown4]: feet are pointing towards

[Unknown4]: the the cover

[Unknown3]: fill the cover

[Unknown3]: okay

[Unknown4]: and that's

[Unknown4]: disrespectful and one of the attendants and the gods

[Unknown3]: i was

[Unknown3]: yeah

[Unknown4]: comes along and sort of hits him with a stick and says what are you doing move

[Unknown4]: your feet uh

[Unknown4]: away from the house of god

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: the cob and groan says to him

[Unknown4]: oh i am so sorry could you move my feet

[Unknown3]: oh my sorry

[Unknown4]: in that direction

[Unknown4]: ten to think what the hell i just turn one hundred and eighty degrees but as he

[Unknown4]: picks grus feet up to move them one hundred eighty degrees the attendant sees the

[Unknown3]: ten problem

[Unknown4]: car

[Unknown4]: right there and then he moves them in another direction and there's the carbo

[Unknown3]: by way then go in

[Unknown4]: right there they removes them in another direction there's the car right there so

[Unknown4]: in other words there's the mystical

[Unknown4]: um for those who are

[Unknown4]: immersed in the dynamic flow of existence

[Unknown3]: i

[Unknown4]: at the level of conscious super conscious awareness

[Unknown4]: there is no

[Unknown4]: one place that is god one place that is truth and that's why the amanda side in

[Unknown4]: amritsar

[Unknown4]: has four doors

[Unknown3]: that's pretty good

[Unknown4]: anybody from all directions are able uh to come in and that

[Unknown3]: everybody prop res probably

[Unknown3]: that's good

[Unknown4]: the

[Unknown3]: to get to the

[Unknown4]: creator was is within the creation

[Unknown4]: and the creation is in the creator

[Unknown4]: which is a beautiful

[Unknown4]: uh

[Unknown4]: dis

[Unknown3]: just

[Unknown4]: deconstructive thought

[Unknown3]: he

[Unknown4]: destroys all interpretive modes

[Unknown3]: there's an interesting you know and again this is coming from my very weak

[Unknown3]: wikipedia knowledge which i i think i should coin that praise because i think

[Unknown3]: that's kind of what we

[Unknown4]: that

[Unknown3]: operate at the cultural level but this idea of um and feel free to correct this um

[Unknown3]: but this idea that uh instead of

[Unknown4]: still busy

[Unknown3]: focusing on truth sicky focuses on the

[Unknown3]: untruthful living

[Unknown4]: yes

[Unknown4]: yeah

[Unknown3]: you know

[Unknown3]: where we are running out of time here

[Unknown3]: for our listeners do you mind kind of summarizing i think that might be a great

[Unknown3]: way to end our

[Unknown3]: episode today kind of discussing that

[Unknown4]: oh okay sure

[Unknown4]: yeah so there's a difference between

[Unknown4]: an ideological position a political view

[Unknown3]: position to view

[Unknown4]: marxism or whichever you want or

[Unknown3]: is in

[Unknown3]: say

[Unknown4]: seculars or theism or atheism there's a difference between views

[Unknown3]: h

[Unknown4]: two ways away

[Unknown4]: now in in in buddhism it's called the middle way it's not called the middle view

[Unknown4]: the middle way means that it's a practice

[Unknown3]: h

[Unknown4]: so

[Unknown3]: that's the same

[Unknown4]: that's the same with the sk tradition

[Unknown3]: that

[Unknown4]: that the the way

[Unknown3]: way

[Unknown4]: you see

[Unknown3]: see

[Unknown4]: the view could be the ten commandments this is the truth

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: but you know you open any hotel top drawer room and there's the bible in there

[Unknown3]: yeah

[Unknown4]: it's like an interesting sort of like anthropological phenomena

[Unknown3]: yes

[Unknown4]: and so oh here's a bible okay and then you can just close a draw and then watch

[Unknown4]: whatever you want on the tv right so there's like a huge disconnect between

[Unknown4]: the truth

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: you know i here is the truth i give you the truth that's sort of like not laughed

[Unknown4]: upon but seen as okay relax that's not not how it works

[Unknown3]: put it in the yes put it in the you you

[Unknown4]: yeah

[Unknown3]: put that in the drawer and you leave facing you all the time the tv right

[Unknown4]: yeah yeah right right instead of taking the book realizing it's cross and you

[Unknown4]: carry the cross

[Unknown4]: that's the practic you carry the cross

[Unknown3]: hey

[Unknown4]: you live the suffering you live as the humble life of a servant

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: right and you serve the meek and the right

[Unknown3]: that

[Unknown4]: so that that's the point being made in terms of

[Unknown4]: on page

[Unknown3]: s too

[Unknown4]: sixty two on the good grant side when it

[Unknown4]: says truth is high but higher still is truthful living

[Unknown3]: sister his father father still

[Unknown3]: hey

[Unknown4]: in other words you have to embody the truth you know walk your talk

[Unknown3]: yeah

[Unknown4]: you have to live it out and when we live something out it far outstrip the

[Unknown4]: language in which it is worded to become a universe in and of itself so the

[Unknown4]: language is merely a symbol

[Unknown4]: sort of like a

[Unknown4]: uh

[Unknown3]: uh sure

[Unknown4]: a shortcut of

[Unknown3]: what

[Unknown4]: what it meant to travel

[Unknown3]: and

[Unknown4]: to germany

[Unknown3]: you can have the language without any of the real meaning behind it which we see

[Unknown4]: yeah yeah yeah

[Unknown3]: all the time that's that's what a hypocrite is

[Unknown3]: right it's just a mask and not the genuine article

[Unknown4]: yeah yeah yeah

[Unknown4]: yeah so that's what um there's a shift from theory

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: truth philosophy to practice which is the living of it

[Unknown3]: hey

[Unknown4]: being loving okay love we should be what is love

[Unknown4]: to try and write a rule book of love right okay and try and enact that then you

[Unknown3]: yeah

[Unknown4]: suddenly realize how difficult it is loving being loving is something that has to

[Unknown4]: be done for you to get to understand just how bad you are at it

[Unknown3]: yes

[Unknown4]: a role for improvement there

[Unknown3]: always always

[Unknown4]: so that can't i mean we can't capture this so that's why

[Unknown3]: why they be that

[Unknown4]: they begin the doch

[Unknown3]: the

[Unknown4]: the potok sutra and

[Unknown3]: hey

[Unknown4]: the good grands they all begin with

[Unknown3]: this

[Unknown4]: this negation of the illusion of our interpretive meanings to try and get us to

[Unknown4]: realize that there's three forms of knowledge there's not just knowledge by

[Unknown4]: distance okay that's a tree i don't have to see the tree i know where a trees

[Unknown3]: this okay that's

[Unknown4]: that's knowledge by distance right that's science

[Unknown3]: yeah

[Unknown4]: then there's knowledge by association you could say practice you could say that

[Unknown4]: could be religion

[Unknown4]: okay i start

[Unknown3]: plan to find

[Unknown4]: crying try and carry the cross but i'm a useless christian or i'm useless sick i'm

[Unknown4]: just really bad at it that's knowledge by practice you know you learn a skill you

[Unknown4]: don't write a book about how to ride a bike you say get on the bike and fall

[Unknown4]: because it's not a knowledge the

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: bike is an embodied knowing not

[Unknown3]: hey

[Unknown4]: a thinking

[Unknown4]: it's a martial art sports people get this straight away get out of your head get

[Unknown4]: to the flow of the movement because it's your movement that teaches you you know

[Unknown4]: what balance is

[Unknown3]: yes

[Unknown4]: balance isn't a concept balance is an existential

[Unknown4]: material

[Unknown3]: two

[Unknown4]: reality

[Unknown3]: yes

[Unknown4]: it's not a thought right so that's that you could see those two forms of knowledge

[Unknown4]: capture everything

[Unknown3]: that we

[Unknown4]: that's what the west has relied upon in my estimation generally speaking ignoring

[Unknown4]: the mystical side

[Unknown3]: sure

[Unknown4]: but then there's the third dimension of knowing which

[Unknown3]: jesus

[Unknown4]: is knowing by becoming knowing by being knowing by identity knowing by merger

[Unknown4]: knowing knowing by waking up mysticism where you

[Unknown3]: it's the best thing

[Unknown4]: so the first two can be colonized by the ego i'm such a good christian i'm doing

[Unknown4]: all the right things i'm serving the people i got a soup kitchen i do this and you

[Unknown4]: you're just deluded right

[Unknown3]: yeah

[Unknown4]: or i'm i'm a good seek and i do the parts i do the prayer i do the things and we

[Unknown4]: we deluded so

[Unknown4]: knowledge by

[Unknown3]: places one six not

[Unknown4]: distance and knowledge by association knowledge by practice both those two can be

[Unknown4]: colonized by the ego the only way to enter the third form of knowing is by ego

[Unknown4]: loss

[Unknown3]: hey

[Unknown4]: breaking the wall of the ego

[Unknown4]: and decentering the ego

[Unknown4]: and i don't know if i have five minutes if that's enough or

[Unknown3]: no absolutely no no go ahead

[Unknown4]: because this is really important um

[Unknown3]: okay if i could add

[Unknown4]: seem the christian mystic

[Unknown3]: oh

[Unknown4]: sorry yeah you're gonna

[Unknown3]: sorry go ahead oh i was just going to say like i mean immediately right like for

[Unknown3]: the christian this is the whole point of if you if you humble yourself you'll be

[Unknown3]: exalted but if you exalt yourself you'll be humbled right

[Unknown4]: exactly exactly

[Unknown3]: so go ahead you were gonna mention a christian mystic though

[Unknown4]: that the keynote of gron' whole philosophy is that it is the stroke of humility

[Unknown4]: humility is an epistemic orientation

[Unknown3]: mm hm

[Unknown4]: it's not just being humble it reveals knowledge

[Unknown3]: yes

[Unknown4]: humility reveals insights and uh the humbling the breaking down of the ego the

[Unknown4]: crying gets you to the poetic to the musical and

[Unknown3]: h

[Unknown4]: music can get you to your feelings which is deeper than your thoughts feelings are

[Unknown4]: in your body and that's how you start to that's why all of the good grants are

[Unknown4]: hymns that are sung to indian ragas thirty one ragas musical melodies

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: the music is awaiting get you out of your thought and um immerse you

[Unknown3]: teach what

[Unknown4]: into your subconscious your feelings your pain your trauma

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: you know the girl says you

[Unknown3]: you have to find that

[Unknown4]: have to find that door in the illusion the

[Unknown3]: soon

[Unknown4]: cinema that you got trapped in the dark illusion of these lights and you don't

[Unknown4]: know where the exit is you have to find that door

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: that door that's there's a hymn called that door so d and what is that do it's

[Unknown4]: pain

[Unknown3]: interesting

[Unknown4]: because if we have a quick definition of the ego the ego is that psycho emotional

[Unknown4]: structure that

[Unknown4]: tries to maximize pleasure minimize pain we're all instrumentalists that's not the

[Unknown3]: like a nice nice

[Unknown4]: right way to see all egos or instrumentalists all track to maximize pleasure

[Unknown3]: yes yes i i understand the distinction yes yeah yeah yeah

[Unknown4]: and all

[Unknown4]: and one of us and it's impossible you know i say to my class has anybody managed

[Unknown4]: that by the way you can have anybody managed it do you want to try something else

[Unknown4]: grus it's very rare

[Unknown3]: hey

[Unknown4]: to meet somebody who's the opposite

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: who maximizes pain

[Unknown3]: hey

[Unknown4]: and minimizes pleasure cause he realize pain is that door

[Unknown3]: hmm

[Unknown4]: pain reveals new insights pleasure merely gives you a comfort that you're

[Unknown4]: accustomed to

[Unknown3]: yeah

[Unknown4]: right so here we have just a very simple

[Unknown3]: i just think

[Unknown4]: existential

[Unknown4]: one philosophical

[Unknown3]: what

[Unknown4]: notion of sicky listening

[Unknown4]: accepting what you hear once you hear the the the truth of a particular

[Unknown3]: accepting what you feel

[Unknown3]: good

[Unknown3]: big

[Unknown4]: encounter and then live it through love

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: so this listening learning and loving sick means devoted learner

[Unknown4]: it means

[Unknown3]: good

[Unknown4]: learning

[Unknown4]: sna to learn also means a devotee of

[Unknown3]: six two most

[Unknown3]: for the of

[Unknown4]: learning of of of of the divine so learning and loving and listening are

[Unknown4]: inseparable to

[Unknown3]: two

[Unknown4]: love you have to learn you better

[Unknown3]: yeah

[Unknown4]: too love you have to listen

[Unknown3]: yes

[Unknown4]: otherwise there's not going to arise

[Unknown3]: right

[Unknown4]: so those three are inseparable and that's what makes up a back to the devotional

[Unknown4]: way

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: i don't know if i answered all the questions that you had

[Unknown3]: no no that is oh no this is this is phenomenal and i thank you so much

[Unknown3]: it has been an absolute pleasure

[Unknown3]: i apologize i actually my son has a basketball game

[Unknown4]: oh right okay

[Unknown3]: and so that's why i said i it it was i i could sit here i mean this is why i do

[Unknown3]: this this uh podcast i mean

[Unknown3]: love to have you back on sometime uh

[Unknown4]: show

[Unknown3]: there's so much more to cover but this is

[Unknown4]: yeah

[Unknown3]: uh this has been so

[Unknown3]: i would say enlightening but you used awakening so i'll use the so awakening

[Unknown4]: same thing same thing

[Unknown3]: yes but very

[Unknown3]: incredibly

[Unknown3]: useful and helpful are terrible words for this i

[Unknown4]: yeah

[Unknown3]: would say very

[Unknown3]: i i just i'm very grateful for what you have uh given here today and i just want

[Unknown3]: to say thank you so thank you for coming on the show

[Unknown4]: you are very welcome you know revelation is receiving

[Unknown3]: receiving

[Unknown4]: uh

[Unknown3]: uh

[Unknown4]: a speech a language

[Unknown3]: m

[Unknown4]: but it also gives a voice it's not only come from a voice revelation also gives a

[Unknown4]: voice and when you enact what you try to

[Unknown4]: aspire to to create the habit of listening

[Unknown3]: respond to

[Unknown3]: hm

[Unknown4]: what listening does it gives the other person a voice

[Unknown3]: hm yes

[Unknown4]: and i think that's that's a way of understanding ah revelation because the

[Unknown3]: six

[Unknown4]: sikhs moved away from

[Unknown3]: to

[Unknown4]: top down and it was the other's voice that was revealing to them

[Unknown3]: hmm interesting

[Unknown4]: and so

[Unknown4]: you know the the the analogy that i'd like to explain is the am

[Unknown3]: yeah

[Unknown4]: fora but we'll for next time because we don't want to miss your ask you for

[Unknown3]: no absolutely i apologize next time i'll schedule it but take you again

[Unknown4]: you're very welcome thank you

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What is Chasing Leviathan?