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The Wellness Docket is a podcast for lawyers and legal professionals ready to prioritize their mental health. Through honest conversations with guests from inside and outside the legal world, we explore burnout, balance, and the pressures of practice—creating space for reflection, recovery, and resilience in the profession. This is a space where your wellness is always on the docket.
Tim: [00:00:02] Okay, so I am here with Dean Michael Maron, Dean at UNB Law School. And just a quick bio Dean Michael Marinis the dean and associate professor of the Faculty of Law, University of New Brunswick. He joined UNB law in 2016 and was appointed dean in 2021. In 2022, he was appointed King's counsel. Prior to academia, he clerked at the Supreme Court of Canada for Honorable Justice Ian Binnie, practiced civil litigation in New York, holds an LLM from Cambridge, where he studied as a gates scholar. He serves on the Law Society of New Brunswick Council, the LSM Wellness Task Force and the Atlantic Regional Committee of the Supreme Court Advocacy Institute. His teaching and research focus on administrative law, workplace law, corporate governance and torts. But more importantly, for our purposes, he's been involved in a lot of wellness those initiatives and on the Wellness Task Force for the Law Society of New Brunswick. So, Dean Marin, thanks so much for taking the time to talk to me today. I know it's taken us a little while to kind of get our scheduling worked out, but it's nice to finally get to sit down and have a chat.
Michael: [00:01:14] Thank you very much for having me, Tim, and thank you for all the good work you're doing on this important topic. You and I have had the opportunity to be on similar platforms before. And, you know, I know that this podcast and broader project is something that you've been working on for some time. And I've seen several of the other interviews you've done. They're fantastic. And I'm very pleased to be here.
Tim: [00:01:42] Oh, I really appreciate that. So as a starting point, why don't you tell us a little bit about your personal journey, in the wellness world and specifically, last year, I think or two years ago, you and I had presented to a first year law school class, during orientation. And I remember parts of your story, but for some reason it tell me, tell me why I know some one of them involves blueberries, but I can't quite remember exactly how, how that ties into it all.
Michael: [00:02:13] Well, that's the one. Um, it's the story of the blueberries and the bar exam. And I, I used that quite intentionally to try to, be memorable to try to convey a message that I think is important. And if there's a true story behind it. Uh, but before we get there, I mean, that, story or that incident, you know, goes back years. Uh, so ever since I was probably in high school, junior high, I didn't realize it at the time, but, I was suffering with anxiety. This is a lifelong thing for me. And, and it was, but I was unconscious of it, you know, I didn't realize what it was. In fact, over the years, I actually thought or understood my behaviour and the way I felt, as actually beneficial and enabling, and, the cycle would be that I would be faced with some kind of academic or professional challenge, you know, to put it very simply, I would just freak out, completely and not be able to sleep, not be able to eat, disconnect from my loved ones. And, but the problem was, that I would always succeed in the end. And so this became a learned behavior. And I started to understand that this is sort of the secret to my success. This, this behavior of mine is actually a good thing. And it's normal. And it's what distinguishes me from other people. Now it perhaps it does distinguish me from some people, but not in a healthy way, I learned.
Michael: [00:04:23] And but this went on through high school, university, law school. During that time, my, the suffering was largely my own. Um, so I don't want to pretend that it didn't have impacts on, on my parents, for example, or my friends. But, but, you know, I was a single person. I didn't have a partner or children. I was living alone. So when I was freaking out like this, I was the one who was suffering primarily. You know, things. Things changed as I got older when I had a wife and kids. But so that's sort of the backstory to the bar exam and blueberries incident that I described. So what happened there? Well, when I graduated from law school, I was hired to work at a large international law firm in New York City. I did my law school in Canada. I felt very fortunate to have that opportunity, but I also felt like I was a fraud, you know, like I shouldn't be there. I had done well in law school and objectively, you know, I earned my spot, but I felt very insecure about it. And, and I thought at any moment, you know, they would discover the fraud that I really am, and they would, fire me. And what made it worse is that when I was hired, when I was starting, it was, the summer of 2008. And we all know what happened, in the fall of 2008. And, so I felt very insecure about the whole thing.
Michael: [00:06:15] And the first thing I had to do was write the bar exam. It was the New York bar. It's notoriously difficult, you know, but if you prepare for it properly, you know, it's eminently achievable. It's just you have to, prepare for it appropriately. And I had all the tools to prepare for it. But again, big professional challenge. I, I sort of, so I got into the cycle again, but this time it was very bad. Uh, this, this was probably the worst episode that I, that I had. I was still single at the time, but essentially what happened was that I stopped eating, I couldn't sleep, so I didn't sleep for four days straight, which is, a kind of a surreal experience. Uh, not sleeping for that length of time, your mind starts to do some pretty strange things. And, you know, I lost lots of weight. The only thing that I could eat, this is where the story comes from is I could only eat blueberries. The only thing I could keep down, everything else I couldn't eat. And, so you can imagine kind of what state of mind I was in, I was catastrophizing. This is one of the ways that anxiety manifests for me is that I catastrophize. So I think the worst possible thing is going to happen. Okay. And, and so the scenario was that I would fail the bar exam, I would then, you know, move to, to New York. So the way it works is you write the bar exam and then you start your job.
Michael: [00:07:58] And then some months later, the names of all the people who passed are posted online. Okay. And so, and at the, at the firm, all the lawyers, everyone knows when the that is going to come out. You know, the results are going to be posted. So everyone's watching for it. And, you know, I would be the only one whose name was not on there. I, so I would be a laughing stock, I would be humiliated. And, and then, you know, I'd get fired and, you know, I had student debt to pay and, you know, so I wouldn't be able to pay my debts. I wouldn't have a job in Canada, because I turned down opportunities in Canada so that I could take this position in New York, which means that no one would hire me in Canada and I'd lose a year of my career. Uh, so and then so there's the catastrophizing. And then I would start ruminating, right? So I would, I would think over and over and over again how I could fix this problem and what I would do and all of the different scenarios and what, how I would respond to it. But this is all like terribly unproductive thinking because you're trying to solve a problem that actually doesn't exist. Um, and, and then it was that was taking away energy from my studying for the exam, which made the anxiety even worse because I would see how far behind or I would think I was far behind in my studying.
Michael: [00:09:42] And then the catastrophizing and the rumination would get even more and more intense. And so you end up in this awful spiral that is very, very hard to get out of. And I kind of wish that I, in some ways that I would have failed the bar exam because it would have probably made me realize that I have a problem and sort of gotten me to get help with it. But, but I did pass the bar exam and, and then, so in some ways this reinforced again, my pattern, right? Like freak out succeed. But I started thinking at that time that, okay, this is, there's something wrong here. Like this. This is not, good. I can't really go on like this. And, so eventually I did get help and we'll talk about about that. But, that's the, the bar exam and blueberry story and, that sort of, how anxiety manifested for me. Um, and, it's a real thing. It's not just being stressed out or anything. Uh, when it gets to that point where it has a physiological consequences, it's a real thing. Uh, it's absolutely a health issue. And it has, a, you know, a biochemical and, triggers and mechanisms. I've spent the, the next 15 years, I suppose, learning about it and figuring out how to manage it and talking to people about it. So anyways, there you have it.
Tim: [00:11:42] Yeah. So I mean, that's, it's fascinating. So what the magic of, I think these conversations and what happens every single time I do this is I hear things that resonate with me. And that's kind of, you know, I hope it resonates with others. And it's, there's kind of two things you're talking about there. And I was like, okay, yeah, I've done those before. So the first one is kind of the imposter syndrome part, right? Where you were talking about that. And I remember, I don't even know if I've talked much about this to many people, but I was part of an internship in Ontario where there was eight of us who were chosen to take part in this legislative internship. And it's this prestigious program. And I had convinced myself I wasn't going to get the job right. Like, you know, despite all the academic, whatever, that you accomplish somewhere in your brain, you do that and you convince yourself, like, you know, I'm not worthy for that. And the second thing that you kind of did is you're talking about the overgeneralization of everything, right? Like if this happens, well, then I'm not going to do that. And next thing you know, it's like you've completely blown it up into a problem. That was one little thing. And now it's like something way bigger, which I think is something that everybody tends to do. Um, and you know, so that really resonates with you. So when you say like, yeah, there it is. I'm like, yeah, no, that's really impactful because I've, I've done the same exact things.
Michael: [00:13:06] Here's the thing that's sort of, well, the next step in this story is that I spent two years at the firm. I come back to Canada and meet my wife. Uh, we're living together. Uh, and we just had a baby, and something else came up. I, talk about a really silly thing. You know, I had a small practice, so I was, I was practicing or I was, I was teaching full time at the University of Ottawa, and I took on a few files out of interest. Um, and, and so I had to maintain a trust account. Right. And everyone's heard the stories about, you know, the regulatory issues around trust accounts and whatever. And, and so since I was, I had just opened my practice in Ontario and Ontario, they do like periodic, like spot audits, of the trust account. And, a month or two before my spot audit, the bank that I was dealing with, even though I had told them not to do this. And I was very clear they took a monthly fee for my banking out of my trust account.
Tim: [00:14:32] And by the way, they'll keep doing that and you'll probably, I've had to go back and tell them, stop doing that. Fix it.
Michael: [00:14:39] But you know. Tim that that was the trigger again.
Tim: [00:14:45] Small, but I get it.
Michael: [00:14:47] And it's stupid. Like it's, I feel silly, saying that, but, it's because this is an illness, right? So it doesn't, it's not supposed to make sense. Like, I understand that it's irrational, right? But it's, that's not it. That's why it's, it's an illness. And so I thought, okay, that's it. I'm going to get disciplined. I'm going to be disbarred. Um, again, stop eating, stop sleeping, whatever. I couldn't get in touch with nobody from the bank was getting back to me and I couldn't see it reversed, like on my online portal. And so every day that would go by where it wasn't reversed and my audit was approaching. I was freaking out, more and, anyways, like finally it got sorted out and the auditor was like, yeah, like this happens all the time. Like it's not a big deal. You know, I can clearly see where it went. There's a memo that says like, why where it is and it's not a, not a problem. You know, just like be on it and keep track of your efforts and like where that and make sure it's documented where that money is going so that, you know, when it comes back, we know what happened. Um, but boy, the suffering, the weeks of suffering over something like that, it was silly. Um, but the point is that at that point, I had a wife and a baby, and now my suffering was not my own. It was impacting my loved ones.
Michael: [00:16:30] And, you know, my wife was trying to sort of help me through it, but she said, look, I think you need to go see someone about this. Um, because, things are different now, right? It's not, it's not just you. So as I. Yeah, absolutely. And I kind of knew that I should be doing that, after the blueberries and bar exam incident. So I did, I went to see someone and the first thing I told the therapist was, you know, this is just the way I am. It's my superpower. Look how successful I am. You know, look at all I've accomplished. You see, I wouldn't have accomplished any of this stuff if I weren't like this. Okay. I don't like it. It hurts me. It hurts my wife. And, you know, my kid. And I don't want to do that. But look at the life I have, how successful I am. These things go hand in hand. And the biggest thing that that therapist did for me is make me change how I was thinking about it and what she did. I remember this this day. I mean, this was 15 years ago. But she says, okay, Mike, tell me about the time when you felt like most successful in your life, like where you were sort of on, top of everything. And let's, let's talk about that because success is very important to you. I guess I have, you know, the, the traditional view of success, right? Like, and a lot of lawyers have this, right.
Michael: [00:18:10] You, you're in the right firm and you, you know, had the right jobs and the right files and your income is a certain level and whatever, whatever. Right. This is how we're, sort of trained to, to think, unfortunately. And, and so, she says, Mike, tell me about a time like that, you know, where you were really on top of it. And so interestingly, like despite the bar exam fiasco, after that, my whole time in New York, I never had any anxiety. It never happened again after that. Right. And so I didn't really know why at the time, but but she said so. So I said, well, it was one of those, the two years that I spent in New York, I was working on great files and my skills were progressing. I had really smart colleagues, and a lot of people find it strange that I say that my symptoms were not present at all when I was in New York, because they think about that environment, you know, Wall Street law firms, they think it's like super intense and everyone's freaking out and people are doing drugs and whatever. That was not my experience in this very demanding environment. And so I explained to her that time. And then she said, okay, well, what? Take me through your day. What what was going on? Like, you know, and so I was describing her day and one of the things that that happened, like I've always been into sports and, you know, I like running and fitness and stuff.
Michael: [00:20:00] So, so I had gotten into a routine shortly after I arrived in New York of, exercising regularly. So I would, I would, work out for about an hour and a half to two hours in the morning, which is probably excessive, but I enjoyed it. Um, and, you know, I'd wake up at the same time. I'd go to the gym, I'd go to work, I would eat well, I ate at the same time. I ate a good diet, you know, and, I come home at the same time. I would go to sleep. I'd get good, you know, seven, eight hours sleep or whatever. What we kind of really went through what those days looked like. And what I realized was that, the, the time when I was most successful or what I considered to be sort of at the time, the peak of my success, traditionally defined, there was no anxiety. And so what she said was, so your, your whole premise that this is like the key to your success is not right. Like it's, it's not true what you're saying, you know, and that was really like an epiphany for me. Like, I assumed this for probably 20 years, you know, and now all of a sudden she's making me think like, no, no, it's not that.
Michael: [00:21:36] And then it went to the next level where she said, you know, were you more successful? Did you feel more successful? Were you materially more successful then or when you were freaking out? Right. And you know, it was the former, right? I was better off in terms of outcomes. The way that I defined success at the time, I was better off in terms of outcomes without the anxiety. And so she then appealed to my kind of desire for success, traditionally defined, to say, this is actually hurting you. You would be better off if you weren't like this, right? And we talked about how, you know, all of the cognitive energy that goes in to the catastrophizing and rumination, the lack, you know, the lack of sleep, all that. Imagine if you're able to channel that into productive work. How successful you would be, right? And, and so that started to really change my thinking. And then she explained to me that this is, you know, anxiety and what it is. And I started doing a lot of reading on it and just kind of learning about the illness, how it operates and, and understanding that it's not enabling, it's debilitating really changed so much for me, the awareness because I feel like, you know, and my, my experiences with anxiety, I don't know if this is the same for other mental illnesses, but I feel like, many people are kind of suffering unconsciously. That's kind of the way I was.
Michael: [00:23:34] I this was just all happening to me. I thought, well, this is just the way I am. There's nothing I can do about it. You know, I'm suffering unconsciously and ignorantly. I don't understand what's happening to me. Right. And then all of a sudden, the therapist sort of makes me realize, no, no, this is what's happening. And so just that was empowering, right? Because you become aware now, right. Of what it is. And it's hopeful because you think, oh, you mean I don't have to suffer? And there were periods of time in my life where I didn't suffer. Right. And, and so the whole thing was, really, just, awakened me right to what was, what was actually going on. And, and that was really the turning point for me. And it's not to say that, you know, like, I'm perfect or I'm cured or this never comes up again. It it does. It's something that I'll, you know, have to cope with for the rest of my life. But we all cope with things, right? We all have, you know, this is okay. Like, this is just part of life. And, and what defines you is not your problem, but how you respond to it. Right. So now I, I kind of know that I have this and I have the coping mechanisms and I'm, you know, largely able to, to manage it and continue to be successful, if you put it that way.
Tim: [00:25:13] There's so many things that, that you said there that are worth kind of unpacking a little bit on it. And the first thing that I just kind of comes to mind here is, do you ever experience because you talked about like the, a subconscious or unconscious way that you're behaving. And I know that, you know, we've all had friends or family members or people that we talk to where they're just kind of like, well, this is just happening to me, right? You gotta live with it. That's it. And as somebody who's been through those kinds of things before, similar to you, my response is, well, no, you don't. Right. Like you, you do have more control than you think you do. Um, it's just a matter of having that switch moment like you had and getting to that point where you, you know, you're lucky that you had people around you who were kind of willing to say, well, listen, like you might want to go get this checked out. And, you know, I hope that for most people, they get to that point because it's going to be awfully hard to kind of sit back and just say, well, I'm reactive. It's just happening to me. I have no control over this.
Michael: [00:26:17] Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I'm very grateful, you know, for, for my wife who urged me to get help, and she did it in a very kind way. You know, she's a very kind and supportive person. I mean, what was one of the things that, I'm sometimes asked is, you know, how to speak to someone who has anxiety or is going through, an episode. It's very hard because no amount of logic can get you. And I want to be clear, like I'm not a medical or not a therapist or whatever. I'm just talking about my own kind of experience. And to the extent that it's helpful to other people, it may not be applicable to other people. All I can share is my own experience. But sometimes when loved ones, when I would, you know, I would want to talk to them about my catastrophizing, the thoughts that were going on in my head. And, and so, you know, I would say, well, look, I'm going to, I'm going to fail the bar exam. I'm going to lose my job. Everything's going to fall apart. The auditor is going to say that I stole the 25 bucks and I'm going to be disbarred. Okay. So so the, you know, your, your loved one might say, well, well, that's not going to happen. I mean, that doesn't make any sense. You know, you're a capable person. Look how hard you're studying. Look how well you keep your, you know, your financial records.
Michael: [00:27:58] Uh, it's not going to happen. So what your loved one is doing with with every good intention is appealing to logic. You're the logical part of your brain, but it's not the logical part of your brain that's operating when you're in the middle of a anxiety episode. Okay? When you're in this spiral, there's nothing logical about it. It's your fight or flight response that's taken over. And, and so that can actually, well, I would become very frustrated, when people would say, well, Mike, you know, that's not going to happen. Uh, that's, that's doesn't make any sense what you're saying, because they're appealing to a way of thinking that I was not capable of in that moment. Uh, and it would sometimes make things worse. And then it would cause me to get frustrated with someone who was just trying to help me. And that's quite painful. Uh, you know, to think about because, you know, all they were trying to do was, was help me, and then I would get upset. Uh, so. Yeah, but the way what I find most helpful is, if you want to support someone who's having a someone like me. One thing to try is to know not to appeal, or try not to appeal to the logical side and dismiss hat their fear is as like illogical or unreasonable. And, and really just kind of like sit with them in their, in their pain. Okay.
Michael: [00:29:47] And, and just, sort of acknowledge, the, the way they're feeling, you know, hearing them out, you know, as a friend. Okay. That's kind of all you can do. Of course, if the time is right, you know, encourage them to get help from a professional. But, you know, I found it in the moment. It's very hard to convince someone through logic and arguments, right, that they are. And regardless of how, you know, well-meaning they are. You can't really think your way out of this problem in the moment. And so the thing to do is it's just sort of, you know, be reassuring, acknowledge, look, this is a really big challenge. You're, you're facing Mike and, you know, I understand how you feel. I hear you, you know, that kind of, that kind of thing. And, and then of course, for me after the fact, it was helpful. You know, when my wife says, oh, after the audit was done and the whole thing she said, and I was feeling better, she said, you know, now is probably the time to go see someone. If she told me during the episode, I probably would have gotten even more upset, right? Kind of pick your pick your moments. But yeah, maybe that's helpful because it's not, it's not just us suffering. It's also our loved ones who are suffering, and sometimes they're not sure how to talk to us when that's happening.
Tim: [00:31:27] And the hard part about, you know, what you're saying is we exist in a profession where we want to solve those problems, right? And so I the example I would give you is I get in trouble all the time when, when my, you know, I won't say too many details here, but my wife will be talking to me about something and I'm already on to the how am I going to solve this? And she's like, no, no, no, I just want you to listen to me. Not you don't you don't need to fix this right now. Like what? I don't need to fix it. This is what I do. Right? And so like, that's, I think a hard part to get through in our profession is, is, you know, just I know people that I've talked to called it kind of just holding space, right? Just be there. Just listen. You're not there to solve the problem right now. You're there just to listen. And later on, you can talk about the logic. And I've kind of gone back a few times similar things to what you've gone through. Um, you know, for example, and said, well, did that $25 in the trust account really have a big impact? I'm like, no, well, then it's probably not going to in the future, right? So you kind of learn to gauge like logically what is a big deal and what's not and when do you need to worry, but when you haven't got to that point? Um, you're right, it does, it grows bigger than it can be. So I think that's, that's really sage thinking and advice for, for people who are going through that and, and helping someone else to say like, listen, like, don't, don't try to logic your way through it at that point because they're, you know, somebody's probably going to say, well, I'm glad that you went through that, but that's not what I'm dealing with right now.
Michael: [00:33:01] Mhm. Yeah. Yeah.
Tim: [00:33:03] Um, one of the questions I wanted to ask you to move on here, you're also on the Law Society task force. And I'm curious, we had, we'd had a kind of a prep conversation a few months ago. And as always happens when I'm preparing for for these podcasts, I'll start talking to somebody. I'm like, okay, stop, because I got to save some of the good stuff for that. And so tell me a little bit about kind of the, the genesis of that was obviously the, Sherbrooke Studies from a couple years ago. And each of the provinces started these task force in different forms. And you're on the New Brunswick version of that. So kind of tell me about that rollout a bit and how that's gone.
Michael: [00:33:44] Sure. Well, we, started this work, it's going on two years ago. Um, and, we received a mandate from the Law Society Council to, look into the results of the Sherbrooke report and, to see, you know, what could be done, in New Brunswick, in terms of the issues that the report identified. Um, so we've done quite a bit of consultation and study with the profession. We did a first interim report where we summarized kind of the key findings of the report with reference to the New Brunswick context. Um, and, and also some of our thinking around where there could be meaningful reforms. We did an environmental scan of what's happening in other provinces as well, and looked at gaps in our province in terms of whether it's regulatory gaps or, you know, services or employment practices for, for lawyers. So we did the first interim report, which sort of signaled to the profession where our direction was going, and, or where our thinking was going. And then we got feedback. We did a survey to get more feedback from, from the profession. Uh, that informed our second interim report. We also had many meetings with, people in different areas of practice, large firms, small firms, different regions, because it was important for us that, you know, what we come up with is representative of, the diversity of the profession.
Michael: [00:35:44] So then we, that informed our second interim report, which got more specific in terms of the proposals, that we were going to be bringing forward. There was a further survey, soliciting feedback on those more specific proposals. And, and then we delivered our interim report or sorry, our final report, last fall, which, was received by the Law Society Council. And in response to that, the Law Society Council established an implementation task force, which I'm currently a member. I was co-chairing the, the Mental Health and Wellness task Force that, or I guess, chairing the mental Health and Wellness task Force that came up with that report. Uh, and I, I currently serve on the implementation task force. So, so that's sort of the, the genesis of it. It contains seven recommendations. Um, and right now the implementation task force is studying how we, actually put in place some of these recommendations. So what's their design? Right? Is it a regulatory tool? Is it a guideline? Is it about education? How about financial implications? You know, what's the oversight mechanism? Who's delivering these things? So those are all the details that we're looking at right now for each of the recommendations. And those will go back to the council eventually when we finish our work. And then that'll be the next step in the project.
Tim: [00:37:41] What are some of the recommendations? And you know, what, what has been the response so far, if you can, if you can tell me a little bit about that?
Michael: [00:37:50] Sure. One of one of the important recommendations, I mean, they're all important, but, but one that I think could have a really positive impact is, the establishment of an ombud. Okay. Who would, and this is not a disciplinary thing, you know. I mean, we suggest that the Law Society establish an ombud, but maybe it's through some other body. The important thing is the function that this position serves. So there are a lot of instances in the Sherbrooke report talks about this, right? Where particularly a young lawyer, not exclusively young lawyers, but particularly other young lawyers will have some kind of challenge in their work. Um, and they, because of their sort of inexperience, you know, or the circumstance in the firm, the power dynamics in the firm. Right. They need someone to talk to to help them sort this out. Maybe it's a conflict with, their supervisor. Maybe it's a conflict with another lawyer. Um, maybe, you know, it's some, situation that arose in court or with a client. So some kind of challenging circumstance and, you know, they feel they might feel, well, I can't go to my supervisor at the firm, the partner or whatever, because the conflict involves them. And I don't feel comfortable going to HR because I don't want this to turn into some kind of broader issue for me.
Michael: [00:39:39] I don't want to go to the Law Society discipline because it's not maybe a disciplinary complaint. And then, so, so there's situations where lawyers who are affected by and affected in terms of their mental health too, because these kinds of problems can, can, can affect our mental health. It's not obvious where to go to talk to someone about that. And you put yourself in the shoes of a first or second year lawyer, they might not appreciate the significance of what's happening. They may be misinterpreting something, and they need someone to have a conversation with outside sort of a formal kind of process, like going to HR or going to, you know, the disciplinary wing of the Law Society. So this is the idea of the ombud. The ombud would be someone who would provide, you know, guidance, who would try to, assist in resolving issues, informally if they sort of, realize in the course of the discussion with the lawyer that this is actually a disciplinary issue or it's something beyond their scope while they refer them to the relevant resources.
Michael: [00:41:07] But so many encounters that we have that lead to, you know, mental health challenges start small. Okay. And if we just kind of address them with a, with a conversation, with some learning. Um, they, they could be resolved before they turn into something bigger and before they become, you know, they contribute to mental health crises and someone, unfortunately leaving the profession, you know, and so that's the role of the ombud. One thing I want to stress about this, proposal. It doesn't have to be called an, but okay. Uh, I, you know, at the risk of speaking for my colleagues, we don't care what it's called. Uh, and we don't necessarily care who does it. Okay, but we see a gap here. There needs to be a resource, that exists to help resolve, problems before they become bigger and before they, have wellness consequences. Because if someone is a lawyer is just sitting there struggling. I mean, thinking about this as someone who suffers from anxiety, I can absolutely see that being a trigger because you have a problem that's not going away and you don't have the power to solve it, and you don't really even understand the problem or why it's happening. And you keep trying in your mind to fix it.
Michael: [00:42:54] Like, you know, you know, and what if it doesn't get addressed and it's only going to get worse, right? And so then you've got the catastrophizing and the rumination again, right? Whereas if you could just have a conversation with someone who can kind of coach you through that, right? And maybe if it is a problem with someone else in the profession, facilitate a dialog. Okay. And, and that can, can be very transformative in terms of professional relationships and our well-being. Um, you know, most, I like to think I'm optimistic that most of these problems that arise is not because someone has bad intentions or is trying to hurt someone else. Right. Um, you know, impact and intention are two different things, right? So, so someone's behavior may be having an impact on someone else. It's not what they intended. Right? And usually when you can have a dialog and someone becomes aware of, oh my goodness, I didn't realize that I was having that impact. Right? And then there can be a dialog there where something better is put in place so it doesn't happen again. It's not about condemning people or anything like that. It's just about creating a forum where, you know, we can address these things in that kind of constructive way.
Tim: [00:44:23] I think that's quite a smart idea. And, you know, as you're talking, I can think of probably a handful of times in my. I've been practicing for 14 years, you know, a handful of times where I've started to kind of get in my own head about something and then either called on a colleague or, you know, even cold-called a few people and been very surprised and impressed by what the response is. Right. And it's, it's helpful even to go back to your example of the $25 trust account thing. Well, in a young practitioner's mind, that might be a big deal. But somebody who's done 50 plus years or 40 years. Um, you know, we'll kind of say, well, let me tell you a story. And, and actually, this is not this is not, you know, the big deal that you think it's going to be. And I think that that's extremely helpful. And to have that person, what are some of the responses you've gotten about that? Because I can, you know, guess that it's probably not all been positive that, that there's probably some concerns about this process as well.
Michael: [00:45:30] Yeah, I think so. And, and some legitimate concerns which we can work through. It's important that whatever we achieve here with the task force's work is legitimate and accepted by the profession. That's important for us. That's because it's only in that way that it'll work properly and achieve its goals. I think there's a sense that, you know, is this another layer of regulation? And this is maybe, not exclusively about this proposal, but maybe sort of generally about our proposals is, you know, is this yet more regulation? Uh, and there is, a wellness angle to that. Uh, so, so these people who are raising these concerns, I don't think they're anti wellness are trying to like, you know, undermine or marginalize, you know, the importance of this issue. I think what, what is going on is the regulation of the profession itself, which is entirely necessary, is itself a source of anxiety. I mean, my my $25 example. Okay. So it's, when we hear these concerns, like it's yet more regulation, it could actually be coming from a wellness, angle, right. If there's enough. So, so now is this ombuds, someone who we have to fear? Are they going to, you know, if we, engage with the ombud, does that mean that, you know, something is going to be disclosed to the registrar or, you know, the discipline committee? What's this really about? You know, is so, so, we have to, we have to sort that out that that is absolutely, absolutely not the intention, but it's the devil's in the details, right? And it's how do you formalize, formalize this so that it's not an additional source of, you know, fear, right.
Michael: [00:48:03] Or burden. So I think that's kind of what and this is, you know, clear in the Sherbrooke study, right? Like the, the, the, regulatory burden, the fear, right, of, of discipline. Right. And is part of, you know, this is why, like, I really like what the law society has done in terms of the fitness to practice stream, which was, implemented a couple of years ago and is currently in place. And New Brunswick is, is one of a few jurisdictions that have done this. And I think it's very, very good. You know, because the our concern as a regulator, as a self-regulating profession should be about, you know, not condemning people, right, for something that is attributable to a mental illness. Right. It should be like maybe during the period of time where they're unwell, maybe they're not well enough to continue practicing for that at that time. But that should not be that we're condemning them. You know, they're they're a bad person.
Michael: [00:49:26] They are not worthy of being a lawyer. No, it's, it's more about, you know, recognizing what their limitations are in the moment, right. Making sure that they take the time to get better. Right. And then when they get better, their practice is organized in a way that the public can feel confident in their ability to discharge their duties. Right? And that's my understanding of the Fitness to Practice program. If someone commits to getting better and to working with the Law Society on a plan to get better and to stay well enough to practice, you know, they're welcome in, in our profession. And I think that is a good thing. We should want that rehabilitation is a good thing, you know? Uh, and, so, so I really like that. I think that's, that's important. And, so, so the law society, you know, in creating the task force and in, certainly with the fitness to practice program, like, you know, I think the council is obviously open to these ideas, right? But in, you know, in implementing them, we got to pay attention to because our, our objective is, you know, not to burden more with regulation. It's to fill a gap, provide a resource. So we just have to make sure we design that properly.
Tim: [00:51:04] Amazing. Well, it sounds like you're doing really great things. And I thank you and the rest of the members for their work on that task force, because I think it is critical. Um, you know, given the studies that have been done and the kind of inflection point that we've, we've been at in the profession, I think these are really positive steps. Um, the last question I ask everybody is if there was one thing you could change about, the practice with regards to mental health, what would that be? I know that's, that's a tough question, but just whatever the first thing that comes to mind.
Michael: [00:51:40] One of the things that, I, that makes me a little bit sad as a, as a lawyer because I'm very proud to be a lawyer. Like being a lawyer is part of my identity. I think over the last number of years, the legal profession, Our reputation has suffered because we. We're associated with all of these mental health problems, right. That the the idea there's an idea out there, you know, both within the profession and outside of it, that being a lawyer is destroying to your well-being and it's not compatible with your well-being. And I think that's really too bad that there's that perception. There are things about the profession, how it's structured, how we do our work, right? That is causing those problems. Those problems are real. Okay. But it doesn't make our whole profession rotten Or incompatible with well-being. If you think about the core values of the profession, okay, they're about service to others. They're about maintaining high ethical standards, right? They're about lifelong learning and and they're about collegiality, right? Working with other people. To me, those are the core values of the profession. And those are absolutely consonant with well-being. If there's one thing I could change, but I think we have to solve some problems before we get there. Some very real problems before we get there is I want current lawyers and aspiring lawyers to identify again with those core values of the profession. Those are good values on their own, but they're also really good for our well-being. You know, they give us a sense of purpose, pride, you know, belonging. This is this is what our profession offers the best of our profession.
Michael: [00:54:03] And unfortunately, because maybe we've gotten away from some of those values just in terms of the way that work is done and the way the profession is structured, you know, we are not reflecting those values in the way that lawyers experience every day practice as well as we could. Okay. But if we can, if we can get back to that, I think it's conducive to well-being. Our profession is conducive to well-being. It's not a, it's not toxic. Okay. Uh, it can be a place where people thrive. Not just in terms of material well-being, but, you know, emotional well-being as well. Yeah. So that's how I would answer that, that question. It's not something you can wave a magic wand though. You know, like we do have to address these very real problems that we have through, you know, the types of initiatives like the Mental Health and Wellness Task Force. So I think we got, we got to get through that. But like my dream for the profession is that we become identified, with, you know, well-being because I think the two go, go hand in hand. You mentioned an example earlier of a very healthy kind of, encounter, which lawyers have this reflex. It's built into our culture. You're talking about how there were instances where as a young lawyer, you called someone more senior, right? And you said, hey, like, what do you think of this? Is this a big deal? And the lawyers. Oh, don't worry, Tim, let me tell you what happened to me, right?
Tim: [00:55:55] Yeah. Love it. Love the war stories.
Michael: [00:55:58] Listen, that is the best of the profession.
Tim: [00:56:02] It is. It really is.
Michael: [00:56:03] That is the best of the profession. And again, you know, I'm not a mental health expert. Uh, but, boy, those kinds of conversations, are uplifting. They're inspiring. It's mutual support. Uh, it makes you feel like you're part of a community. Okay. That is good for well-being. You know, and we have this, like, we have this in our culture. Lawyers do this. So, so, you know, we should never think that lawyers are ambivalent or maybe they don't frame these issues as well-being issues. Maybe maybe that like framing is a new framing. Okay. But lawyers have been doing this for decades, if not centuries, supporting one another. It's a collegial profession. You know, I remember my first, court appearance was in, state court in, in Brooklyn. And I was, I was, on a pro bono file. I was representing someone who had been evicted from their apartment. Um, we alleged because of their HIV status. Anyway, so I wanted to have a discovery with the person who owned the building, the owner of the building and the, the defendant was refusing, so I brought a motion. And, anyways, I didn't really understand how this stuff worked, you know, like, I thought that I would go and just argue the merits. Okay. Uh, but I got there and there was like 200 people in the hallway and they were yelling the file name. I had no idea what was going on. Okay. And I get into court and my file gets called the clerk has a stack like this.
Tim: [00:58:05] You've got three minutes.
Michael: [00:58:06] Yeah. And, and so they call the. And then all these people are standing there. A file would be called the ones before me. It was an alphabetical order. And the ones before me, someone would stand up, say their name for whatever party, and then someone else would stand up and say, you know, they stand up and say motion. They just say motion. That's it. Which was weird because these were all motions, but they would say motion. I had no idea what was going on, but what they were doing is motion for an adjournment. Okay. And nobody told me this, I didn't know. Okay. So So, finally. And then. And then the judge wouldn't say anything. There would be no argument. The judge would say, yeah, granted. And then it goes to the clerk and something happened over there with the papers.
Tim: [00:58:54] Right. And then your client just looks at you goes, what the hell just happened?
Michael: [00:58:59] So finally my case gets called some lawyer that I've never seen before. Uh, a name. She gets up, she says her name. I never heard that name. It's not the name on. I said no, no, I said no. I'm prepared to proceed, Your Honor. Anyways, the guy, the judge, he does one of these with his glasses, right?
Tim: [00:59:39] Oh, I've had that. I've had that happen before.
Michael: [00:59:45] He says, Mr. Marin, some of, you see all those files over there on the clerk's desk, right? Some of those people have been here three, three dates and they're not being heard. I got to get through. I've got three hours to get through all of these motions. There better be something awfully important here, you know, for you to be heard on the first date. Anyways, I forget what I said, but the whole thing. And when I stood up, everyone laughed when I said no. Everyone laughed. And then when I got this. So anyways, of course it gets adjourned. And that was my first court appearance. So I was kind of feeling not great about that, you know, and then I went back to the office and remember, like, this is the, you know, people think about the caricature of the New York law firm. And it's like, you know, you know, intense place and nobody cares. And it's all about money. That was not my experience at all. I got back to the office and my colleague said, hey, Mike, it was your first court appearance. How did that go? Tell us. Tell us about it. And I said, oh, guys like didn't go well, you know, here's what happened. And we all went into the conference room and they're laughing and they're telling me stories about their first experience.
Michael: [01:01:11] And it was like that. It was exactly some ridiculous thing that happened like that. And it made me feel great, you know? And I felt like I was part of a community. Um, I felt closer to my colleagues. And so lawyers do this like we're good at it. We, we mentor, we. And, and so we shouldn't. Yes, we have problems in our profession. The Sherbrooke report It is quite a robust account of those and we should take that seriously. But that is not our identity. That is not who we are. We can change those things. We can get better. Just like you can get better with your mental health. You know, you can take steps, you know, with the right, advice, professional advice and support. Things can get better. We can do the same thing. It doesn't define us. Right. We get we have these problems. What defines us, I think, is that wonderful culture, right? That you and I have experienced, where we want to help each other, where we want to share in our successes and our miseries. You know, the high and lows. Like we love talking about that stuff.
Tim: [01:02:21] Oh yeah. It's yeah, I the funny part is you're going through that story and I'm thinking like, I've probably got a dozen stories similar to that. And, you know, we could go on forever, on that, but I, I really appreciate your time. It's been a fun conversation and let's keep this up in the profession to try to get it to that point where it is the better part of it. You know that we're not just looking at it and saying that there's broken things. I think we're on a good path to fixing some of those things.
Michael: [01:02:51] Yeah. And Tim, like your, your podcast provides that forum for those kinds of, encounters, right? And, and discussions like it's positive, you know, and, yeah, it's okay to share, like our, our struggles both personally and as a profession. And, we can have a productive dialog and, and get to a better place. So I just want to thank you for having me and also for all the work that goes into this at UNB law, we had a podcast during the pandemic to kind of try to engage with our students because they weren't physically present. So we started a podcast. I know a little bit about podcasts and what it takes to prepare for them and edit them and schedule guests like me who are impossible to schedule. It's a lot of work. And so I just wanted to thank you for that and acknowledge what we what the viewers see as the finished product. But there's so much work that goes on before that. And so I just wanted to acknowledge what a great service it is. And, and, you know, hope you'll, you'll carry on.
Tim: [01:04:02] Yeah, I appreciate that and my pleasure. It's definitely, a thing of passion and something that I enjoy doing. So usually it's not work. It's, it's just, it's actually something that makes me invigorated almost every time I have these conversations to keep doing what I'm doing. So I appreciate that. Thanks.