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Fandom has become the engine of contemporary culture and commerce. It’s everywhere. From the hype culture of music and entertainment to the business valuations of Tesla. And it’s redefining the relationship between brands and consumers. “Fans” behave in fundamentally different ways than “consumers.” Fandom activates our need to be a part of something larger than ourselves, while simultaneously deepening our sense of individuality. In this series, we dig into all things fandom. We talk with cultural experts about how brands can use the power of fandom to create lifetime value. When done right, fandom is a shortcut to lasting love. Hosted by Jonathan Hanson, CCO of Unconquered, a creative agency using the emotional power of fandom to transform brands.
This podcast is a follow up to a report, Decoding Fandom, Unconquered's official primer on contemporary fandom, outlining insights for understanding and building connections between fans and brands.
https://www.fandom.weareunconquered.co/decoding-fandom-insights-strategies
Jonathan Hanson I'm sure. And I'm curious to like how you got into this area of study. Were you always interested in the media and were you a self-described geek yourself growing up? Did you like these hardcore fandoms that you were a part of?
Avi Santo - Yeah, I mean, I think that, I mean, I would certainly describe myself as, you know, as a geek growing up at a time when being a geek wasn't necessarily a term that had certain, had cache attached to it, because this was, you know, 1980s, but, you know, I think, so for me, my background, my PhD is in radio television film. So I'm a media studies scholar by training. And my focus right out the gate was actually not so much on fandom, but on licensing and merchandising. I was really interested in the way in which media IP was extended into people's lives through material culture, through things that they bought and why, and ultimately how those things were sold as part of an experience related to a brand. And, you know, and increasingly, as I went on, what people did with them, which got me into this kind of fandom space. My, you know, my first book, Selling the Silver Bullet, is looking at the sort of history of character licensing in the entertainment industry starting in the 1930s through, you know, through the current moment with, but the goal is to trace this historical trajectory of what we now think of as convergence culture and transmedia, sort of like, you know, extension as actually having a very long history. And that if you look back at characters like the Lone Ranger, you can see a lot of the practices that we now see as commonplace being experimented with all the way back in the 1930s. And so, you know, it starts from that space of an actual strong interest in consumer culture and consumer products in brand extensions, particularly media brand extensions through consumer products. And then increasingly, you know, as I start thinking about what people do with these things, you see some disconnect, right? That the intention and what people do are quite different. Actually, what people do with these brands are always more interesting than what the intentions are. Agreed. You know, and so, you know, and then trying to figure out, you know, sort of where are the spaces in which increasingly still with an interest in material culture and stuff, essentially, where are the spaces where we see fan communities coming in, what we now call fan-entrepreneurs, right? People sort of coming in and creating their own content, their own objects, using IP often without, you know, without regard for copyright, certainly, you know, sort of walking a line in terms of whether it would cost, whether it would qualify as fair use or not, but ultimately filling in gaps, right? You know, sort of presenting, providing communities with things that they desire as part of their connection to this fan and material objects that aren't licensed for various reasons sometimes because there's no money in it, right? There's too much of a niche community sometimes because those objects kind of challenge the kind of core brand identity that the brand owners have, right? They may sort of involve, you know, sexual content or sort of present images that kind of, you know, or actually the opposite. They could present images that are actually quite progressive in their sort of depiction, but, you know, brands tend to be conservative. They don't want to rock the boat. They usually try to be apolitical. And so, you know, I mean, so there's, you know, really tapping into these markets that don't currently exist, you know, and try and understand what's at stake there, try and understand also the way in which basically when someone creates an Etsy store, you know, and they sort of market themselves as sort of selling branded materials to fan communities, to what extent their own fan identity is part of what's being sold, right? Why would you choose to, if you could go on Etsy and you could find a thousand different stores that could create some sort of tchotchke featuring a favorite video game character of yours that you couldn't otherwise find in a store shelves? Why would you choose one creator over another? I mean, some of it might be about price points. Some of it might be about, you know, aesthetic, you know, sort of taste. Some of it might be about what you perceive to be quality, although that can be hard to tell online. A lot of it's gonna have to do with whether you feel like this person truly has the same kind of love for the brand that you do. You know, you're gonna really kind of try to identify someone who sees, who identifies as a fan. And so increasingly part of what's going on in fan entrepreneurship is the marketing of self as fan, as much as the products that then extend
Avi Santos from that fan practice. Yeah, absolutely. What I think is like so interesting about it is the psychological side to fans and as you pointed out, identity. And I'm curious to how, or if in your work you've studied or looked into that part of identity and how it's like a piece that is reflected back, or if it is aspirational, you know, where are these pieces coming from? Sometimes when I think of brand fandom, I think of people wearing the logos just for this, that maybe the association like, oh, I'm smarter, I make more money, I do these sorts of things. And I'm curious if that translates as well into like the more entertainment or other sorts of fandoms that aren't necessarily particularly based in like the purchasing and of consumerism around, you know, buying a Mercedes versus buying like
Jonathan Hanson, my favorite baseball team's hat, right? So I think that, I mean, these are great questions and I'll lead with what I don't do. I'm not a social psychologist, so I would not pretend that I sort of can draw from that particular sort of literature. I do think, however, that identity is really a key factor, but in ways that I think are both sort of more complicated than the binary that you're creating, that you're presenting. And also, I think, you know, in some ways, really very much rooted in what can be expected from the experience. So I think one, let's start with the idea that, you know, I actually think what you're describing when you talk about someone buying, you know, Mercedes or buying, you know, a branded piece of fashion clothing with a particular high-end designer, that's what we talk about is lifestyle branding, right? This is the ability to present oneself as sort of aligned with a particular lifestyle, usually associated with luxury, right? A certain kind of sensibility to it. On the one hand, media fandoms work a little bit differently, on the other hand, they don't, right? On the one hand, I'll start with how they don't, and then I'll go to how they do. How they don't, I mean, I think increasingly, we see lots of intersections and convergence between high-end luxury brands and media brands, right? You know, the ability to have the like $3,000 a night Star Wars experience at Disney, you know, stay at their five-star luxury hotel, you know, is a good example of a way in which luxury and, you know, and sort of media fandom can combine, or we see lots of interesting intersections between high-end, you know, cosmetics or, you know, or fashion brands and particular media properties. So there is a convergence there that is interesting, right? For the person who wants to both, you know, sort of convey that they have a certain class status, but also an affiliation with a certain community, I think where they differ, and this is also not unrelated from what I just said, I think that to some extent, when you engage in a certain kind of lifestyle sort of acquisition strategy when it comes to media and popular culture fandoms, you are essentially walking a sort of ironic line, right? I think that when we see a lot of these types of products that are, you know, so if you think about the person who's gonna spend $3,000 a night to stay at this, you know, luxury, you know, high-end luxury Star Wars, you know, resort to experience at Disney. I mean, of course to do that, you have to have the means to do it, but if you have the means to do it, why would you choose Star Wars as opposed to something that has a more obvious conveyance of luxury? And some ways that a private may have to do with a love for Star Wars, which is genuine, but a lot of it, I think, also has to do with a desire to sort of communicate a certain kind of ironic relationship to luxury, right? A desire to say like, I mean, I want this experience, but I also want to convey that I'm not the type of person who cares that much about this experience, even as I'm willing to pay all this money for this experience, right? And so there's an interesting kind of tension there between that sort of luxury, sort of a desire for luxury, but also a kind of desire to sort of step away. I mean, fandom has always existed, you know, here's the thing, fandom has always existed on the margins. Luxury is something that also exists on the margins because most people can't afford it, but is seen as something that is aspirational. Aspirational. And so this allows for a kind of both end element, I think, to kind of come together. You can both have the luxury, but also express a certain kind of ambivalence towards it, or sort of a ironic take on it. The other thing that you see happening, obviously, and this is the sort of interesting thing, I think, for me about lifestyle when it comes to fandom, is that lifestyle branding and fandom intersect at the luxury end, but they also intersect at the mundane end, right? That really, and so, you know, if for the most part within marketing and brand culture, lifestyle is often equated with high-end luxury within sort of media and popular culture fandom, it does have that element, but it's also equated with, you know, branded toothbrushes and, you know, branded low-end bed sheets and things like that. That suggests that it's a sort of walking a line between ubiquity and luxury, right? And that really, when fans engage in a kind of lifestyle practice through their acquisition, they are often doing both ends, right? They will often have a lot of ubiquitous, mundane, everyday objects, you know, that basically insert their fandom into everything from, you know, hygiene to, you know, just basic sort of, you know, necessity around the house. And then they will also invest strategically in certain high-end kind of opportunities, you know, as they can afford them. They might have to save up a long time for that Star Wars luxury trip, or if they want to get the intersection of like the high-end, you know, where they are like that high-end like convection oven that is branded with like Han Solo or something like that. Yeah, yeah. You know, I mean, they might save up for something like that, but that's probably, but they're gonna start with the low-end,
Avi Santos mundane pieces and then move towards it. Well, it reminds me of like, maybe like, I being a kid and having my He-Man pajamas and, you know, my Star Wars bed sheets, as you pointed out, and like all these little things that kind of kids are, it's naturally a part of their lifestyle, I think, just from a childhood experience perspective. But I'm curious how age plays into this, because it seems like some things are just generally marketed to children. When you think about like, you know, toothbrushes or, you know, either He-Man pajamas or whatever. And I'm curious in your work, have you seen this segmented out and how age and maybe even gender plays
Jonathan Hanson into the marketing or creation of fan merchandise? Sure, I mean, in lots of ways, right? You know, and there's not one simple answer here. So I will start with the idea of saying, you know, there's a lot of intersection between merchandise that is sold to children based on media products and then merchandise that is sold to fan communities based on media products. And that increasingly, I mean, for a long time, I think those were, imagine it's very discreet audiences, right? Kids wanted toys and they wanted, you know, and you could convince parents to buy branded objects that could be seen as helpful in helping students and getting kids to acclimate to like, you know, proper socialization, right? It's important to brush your teeth. It's important to get ready for bed, having this thing that you love, maybe makes that easier for parents. And then you had these objects for adults, which were often more luxury oriented or had less utilitarian value. Increasingly, I think what we see is an effort to cultivate a certain kind of fandom starting with childhood that's going to progress into adulthood. And so you see levels and layers, right? You'll see, yes, you know, toothbrushes are still mainly addressed to kids, but you can find high-end hundred dollar electric toothbrushes that you're probably not getting your six-year-old, you know, that are probably aimed more teenagers or young adults. You can get the star Wars pajamas or the He-Man pajamas in all age categories. I encourage you to go to Hot Topic or any other type of store and you'll find that stuff, right? So there's a sense that you can age up into these pieces that's there as well. And I do think that like, you know, in part, you know, this becomes, when you think about why someone would want to do that, I mean, somebody has a love of character, a love of a particular brand, a love of a particular media property, although the reality is that brand owners don't want that kind of fan, right? Brand owners want someone who, I mean, they want someone who's loyal to a brand, but they also recognize that there's a certain kind of agnostic quality to it, right? They want someone who's just gonna continue to buy brands. Right? You know, and so there's, in many ways, a lot of it's about what a kind of fan lifestyle affords adults as they step into it, right? So you think about, you know, the challenges of our society, right? Most of us, you know, there's a lot, I mean, our society has tremendous amount of challenges, essentially, I'm going to be very reductive here in terms of identifying one that's at the core. But one of the core challenges that our society in particular faces is tension between, essentially, individualism and the collective, right? Fitting in and standing out. You know, we struggle with this, I mean, you know, America, individualism is a very strong identity within America, it's in the United States, and there's a kind of sense that brands can help one both, you know, establish some sort of individuality through the choices they wear, the choices that the things they own. Of course, there's irony there is that most of these things are mass produced, so therefore, you know, you and 100,000 other people have that baseball cap, you know, so its ability for you to stand out in the crowd is also mitigated by the fact that there's also a community of people that share that. But in part, that's the desire, that's the key, right? This, by choosing a particular, you know, brand, you know, brand object to wear, you can do both, in theory. You can both stand out and fit in at the same time, right? You have a community of people that care about this, but you're also able to establish a certain aspect of who you are. It also allows for, and if you think of a fandom as kind of always existing, you know, not always is probably overstating it. Fandom has existed at the kind of, as I said, at the margins of our society for a long time, fandom wasn't cool, right? It's really only starting in the early 2000s with the kind of popularization of geek culture, that fandom suddenly becomes something that media industries, brand owners want to affiliate with. Really, if you look at the literature on fandom in the 1980s and 1990s and earlier, fans are losers, right? Fans are overly obsessed, overly invested. They're not the person you want representing your brand, right? The person you want representing your brand is, you know, an average Joe who's, you know, basically want, you know, who can use this in a meaningful way and has not sort of, is not deeply focused on it, on what this brand can do. Once we see the shift where suddenly fandom becomes something that has value, economic value, social value, cultural value, then we have this opportunity where suddenly fandom that's existing on the margins as something that's undesirable actually becomes re-conceptualized as something that still exists at the margins, but actually is something that, you know, can allow one to participate actively in society. And so what that means, at least for me, is that what happens when adults invest in a kind of fan lifestyle, it's a fan lifestyle that's, I should say again, agnostic of products, right? You can move from Star Wars to He-Man to She-Ra, to Star Trek, you know, you can keep on going to the next Marvel, you know, MCU movie, but these objects, when you choose to go out the house wearing, you know, a t-shirt with any of those objects, right now what that conveys in some ways is your ability to both conform and rebel at the same time, right, that you exist at the margins, right? It's about saying like, I'm going to the office, but I'm wearing this, you know, He-Man t-shirt, so, you know, I'm not the type of person who wears a suit and tie, right? But at the same time, you're also investing in a mainstream brand, you know, owned by one of the largest toy companies and now entertainment companies in the world and Hasbro, you know, that is recognized and beloved by millions of people around the world. So your rebelliousness is somewhat constrained and contained, but you can still sort of take on that air of a certain kind of rebelliousness through your investment in this kind of fan lifestyle without needing to actually be on the margins, right? Without actually needing to be necessarily sort of outside of what society will allow. Historically, that's a shift within the conceptualization of fandom that allows it to be then connected with lifestyle from the perspective of brand owners
Avi Santos and perspective of consumers in a more meaningful way. And I'm curious, as you talk about it being sort of like a way to establish yourself maybe as different or an outlier, but even though it's still tied to like, you know, a core mainstream property, I'm wondering if that's where some of the individual fan creation comes in, the co-creation, like making their own fan products, adding a level of scarcity or uniqueness that isn't gonna be available to like, you know, be able to go to a target and buy something. Do you think that plays in a little bit with this idea of helping keep it fringe or help keeping it quote like authentic and kind of rebelling against that, like as you said, the irony of the consumerist aspect of it?
Jonathan Hanson To some extent, yes. I mean, I think that as fandom becomes more mainstreamed, as brand owners actively talk about wanting to cultivate fans and essentially, you know, brand owners often conflate consumers and fans in very, there are differences, but I think they conflate them all the time, right? Some would buy something as a fan of something, which is not exactly, I think, what's happening. But I think as there is this mainstreaming of fandom, we see communities of people who perhaps have a, who claim to be the OG fan, right? Who claim to have a deeper investment in that fandom, you know, doubling down on how they can sort of differentiate themselves from this essentially kind of mainstream, this sort of, you know, fake fan, you know, and, you know, but it's not in ways that reject acquisition. It's not in ways that reject consumer products or consumerism, right? It's often just in search of particular sort of outlets to acquire these things, right? And that's where I think places like Etsy or Redbubble, you know, or other types of craft, you know, spaces for fans and fan entrepreneurs come into play where they can offer essentially an experience that is still related to acquisition, still connected to this idea of owning an object related to that fandom, but can position it as outside the mainstream, as, you know, something that because it doesn't have an official license, isn't fully sanctioned by the company, even though I would say 90% of the stuff that's created would probably have no problem, at least in terms of content being accepted, it might have issues in terms of quality and things of that nature. But I do think that, so I think there is that kind of community of people that really want to sort of be able to say, how can I differentiate myself even within this sort of expanding field? And this is where I think you also get to some of these kind of one of a kind of opportunities that exist within these spaces, right? So if you go to Etsy or Redbubble, most of the things you're gonna buy are just in a catalog of stuff, right? Cell phone cases, T-shirts. That's right, you go to a store and they have, you know, a hundred different kinds and from 15 different fandoms, right, so in some ways, right, you know, it can be hard to say like, well, why is this particular store better than another? But I do think, you know, there's this other layer that I think Etsy and Redbubble can offer, not every store does, but most do, which is different than the mainstream consumer experience and that is the ability to customize, that is the ability to ask, you know, a store owner to make something that is particular, you know, that may not be existing in the marketplace or, you know, what either has an object or in a particular visualization of it, you know, and that then can serve multiple purposes, right? It may be something you have a personal connection to, but it also allows you, I think, to establish a certain kind of credential within that particular fandom that is, you know, that rises above, if you will, the thing that you can find on the Target or Walmart store shelf.
Avi Santos Yeah, it kind of allows that space for the personal story to come through and really be actually seen, maybe even in the thing you're acquiring, you know, you love this particular aspect of the character or this certain thing that they do, maybe you bring this out and what you're making, I can totally see how that reinforces the value of it,
Jonathan Hanson right? Absolutely, right. So I think, you know, I think you probably read my piece on fans and merchandise. So I talk about that and talk about an example in there of my own, you know, from my own family situation where, you know, when my kids were very young, they were really obsessed with the movie, The Wiz, you know, and the soundtrack from it. But, you know, obviously that movie came out in the early 1980s and even then wasn't highly merchandised. So, you know, there was not a lot available. And so we ended up turning, really, we turned to XE to have these commissioned peg dolls, these commissioned, you know, puppets essentially, you know, which of course, you know, allowed us to kind of, you know, engage, we used their fan, you know, we used their love for it and we used sort of fan practice to basically bond with our children. Now, that's a very personalized experience, right? But what then happens beyond that, that sort of moves it into this realm of fandom is when I take photos of these objects and I put them online as a way of sort of demonstrating my commitment to this fandom, right? I'm willing to pay additional money. I'm willing to have these objects. I have these objects that no one else is gonna have. They essentially kind of convey a certain status, you know? And then also, I think one of the things I recount in that story is that, you know, when we were sort of figuring this out, it was really important for us to identify store owners on Etsy who also loved the wiz, right? Lots of people said they could do it, but we had people going like, you know, I mean, so when I initially commissioned, I sent emails, I sent like messages to probably about a dozen store owners saying, hey, you know, we'd like to have these peg dolls, commission, you know, I see that you make these things. Could you do it for us? Now, some of them wrote back saying like, oh, I've never seen this movie before. We didn't go with them, you know? We went with the person who basically said, oh yeah, I love this movie, right? You know, because, you know, that in some ways was a reassurance for us that we were going to get something that is high quality and has the kind of, you know, that soft fuel, that love factor involved in it, that is meaningful. And essentially, when I talk about fan-troponors and fan-made merchandise, I'm often talking about that aspect of it that's key, right? It's not just the object itself, it's the foregrounding of the fact that it's made by fans, for fans, you know, that is essential, right? It kind of conveys. So in that sense, it's not just that the object itself could be distinct from what you can get on the target shelf, but it's also about the ability to support communities, support, you know, business, you know, in the same way that we might someday say we want to support our local, support local businesses, or, you know, we should, depending on, you know, supports, you know, you know, swam businesses, small women and minority-owned businesses. There's also kind of perception that, like, within fan culture, you support fan businesses, right? You support businesses where that piece is there, and that's partly how you demonstrate
Avi Santos a certain kind of authenticity, you know, that is sort of essential to your own fan credentials. And, I mean, on that idea of authenticity, do you think there's like something that you see commonly, like, as a mistake that brands or brand partnerships make when they're trying to connect with these audiences? You know, you see it, because when it blows up, it blows up magnificently. It's huge. And I'm curious if, you know, in your research and your work that you've been doing,
Jonathan Hanson if you see commonalities in that, in those mistakes. There's some common themes that I see emerging, you know. Recently, I just had this essay come out that I can send you a copy of if you want, which is focused on sort of hot topic. And it's thinking about sort of hot topic as this space that markets itself as, you know, essentially for fans, but a certain kind of approach to fandom that is really at stake here. So I think the tensions that I see are, you know, and I'm talking broadly, you know, and then, you know, we can think about specific examples and maybe where they play out that way. But, you know, one, I think that some of the common mistakes is that oftentimes brands, when they engage, you know, either consumers as fans or fan communities, they focus on sort of individuals rather than thinking about the importance of that fandom as a communal experience, right? And this is partly because as a consumer, because from a consumerist mentality, you're always selling things to individuals, you know. But fandom ultimately has always been a communal experience, right? And so thinking about how, you know, even if you're engaging an individual, you know, as a consumer, how that engagement is going to connect into a broader communal experience is often key. And sometimes it gets left out. In fact, if anything, I often see situations where brand owners sort of pit fans against each other, right? Oh, competitions, you know, you can each submit, everybody submits a piece of artwork and somebody will win a prize. This kind of, it's a divide and conquer strategy, right? But it ultimately, I think, you know, undermines the sense of what people who are invested in that fandom are after, which is truly a communal experience. There are lots of course of entrepreneurs and people who would enter a competition because what they want is to get recognized and see it as a pathway towards co-creation, towards a potential job in that industry. I'm not sure those people actually are fans. You know, I'll give you an example of that in a minute if you're interested, but I think- Yeah, I'd love to hear an example. But I think that in general, right now, oftentimes there's a kind of mentality of competition that brand owners ride onto fandom that I think misses the mark. So I'll give you two examples of this that really kind of strike me. One is from Hot Topic, right? Hot Topic had this set of t-shirts that they marketed for a number of years, you know, that literally said, my fandom is greater than your fandom. That's the t-shirt, that's all it says. My fandom is greater than your fandom. I mean, I'm like, I mean, you know, it's cute and I'm sure people bought it, but ultimately, the message that it conveys is this notion that, you know, fandom ultimately boils down to competitiveness as opposed to collaborative spaces. And I think in that way it misunderstands. On the flip side, right? I think about, let's say, you know, circa 2006, I wanna say, I mean, I could be off of my year. You know, we see the MTV Movie Awards create this category for best fan spoofs, right? So they had this new category, it's been designed to engage, you know, fandom, right? And they encourage, you know, people to submit these kind of spoof trailers based on the movies that are nominated for the MTV Awards that year. And the winner is, you know, a film called United 300, which combines the kind of, you know, some off-color way, United 93, which is the story of the 9-11 flight that, you know, where the passengers took over the airplane. And the movie 300, you know, about the Roman, not the Roman, what are they, the, I forget, you know, the… Spacing on it as well, I'm not sure. But it's, you know, it's a… I'll send you the information. Anyway, the, you know, the trailer's fine, it's a nice three-minute trailer, you know, it wins this award. The filmmaker is a man by the name of Andy Signor, you know, who, you know, wins this award. And he then becomes one of the founders of a company called Fandom, which basically produces the, you know, Honest Trailers videos on YouTube, if you've seen those. It's a huge company where, you know, deeply connected to the media industries, right? You know, long story short. So back around 2010, I have a chance to interview Andy about, you know, his experience here. And one of the things that he's really explicit with me about in this interview is that, you know, like I keep saying, so it must be incredible to think about how you move from being a fan to being a sort of, you know, be able to parlay that into this sort of mainstream participation, you know, in this kind of versioning space as a, you know, promotional space within the entertainment industries. And he really says to me, you know, I'm not a fan. I was never a fan. I don't consider myself a fan. I'm a filmmaker. This was a pathway for me to be able to showcase my stuff, to get attention from my work, to basically get investors to support this idea, right? The fact that MTV Movie Awards shows the quality fan spoof video contest is irrelevant, right? So in some ways, I think a lot of these competitive spaces, they do attract contributions, but I'm not sure they actually contract, they attract these contributions from the fan communities themselves. The other thing that I think is really that, where I think brand owners missed the mark around fandom is about the relationship that people have to objects, right? So sometimes fandom is really understood as a relationship between people and things. And at the end of the day, it's a relationship between people and people that exist through things. And that's an important distinction, right? That ultimately fandom is really facilitates, you know, fandom around a particular brand or a particular media property facilitates relationship building through that relation, through that connection. And so there always has to be an understanding of how acquisition of this thing, of this object, of this piece of merchandise, this branded piece of merchandise can facilitate those relationship opportunities. I think sometimes we stop, the brands stop, right at the stop at the sense of like, well, people buy things and they're in there buying of their things, that's what the fandom is. It's actually about what the fandom affords them to, what buying those things affords them to do as fans. And that's often about the ability to engage others. Now, this is not all a sort of a loving kind thing. I don't wanna make it sound like relationship building is all community building is always, everybody loves each other. There's often tremendous competitiveness within these communities. And there's often tremendous over status over who has, who has the best stuff. Who's a real fan. Right, who's a real fan, right. Who knows the most, who has the, you know, all those things exist. But ultimately the objects that are being purchased have to serve those conversations. And so I think that's where we often see a kind of missed opportunity. One of the things I talk about in this piece I'll send you is that plot topic kind of engages in what I see as kind of an interesting emerging fan practice around acquisition, which is what I call curatorial mediation, right. Where they increasingly encourage, and this is, you know, it sounds like a fancy term, but it's a very simple idea, right. They encourage fans to essentially take photos of themselves wearing these objects that they've purchased from Hot Topic, typically branded objects. You know, Hot Topic has a lot of these licensed relationships with the mainstream entertainment industry around particularly clothing, but also other products. And, you know, basically curate essentially a version of themselves in it that you can then upload and you then participate through the kind of hot topic online community. And essentially what curatorial mediation does is it allows for, you know, I think fans to basically embrace and sort of move from sort of this passive notion of I buy things to a more active notion of I curate, right. I'm able to both express something about who I am through my wearing of this object, but also I think reframe what this object means to a broader community through my sharing of it and my sharing of my experience of wearing it in that space. And it becomes a much more, I think, complex set of interactions than just I bought this thing and I wear it to impress my friends.
Avi Santos If that makes sense. Totally. What I find interesting is the relationship, I guess, between buying something, as you said, is very singular versus the idea of having fans and being part of a fandom is the community side of it. And over the last, I don't know, five, 10 years, I think we've seen more and more experiences evolve from some of the media or entertainment properties, even from a branded aspect, if you go to Coachella's happening, you go to Coachella and there's all these branded experiences where you can go in and sort of interact with these things. And I'm curious if you think that's something that's gonna continue to evolve and replace some of that idea of like, oh, just buy this and you're part of the fandom, but no, go and be a part of the stranger things, pop-up experience. If you're a fan and wanna communicate with others. So do you think that's gonna be kind of the quote future as we go forward or how do you think this is gonna evolve
Jonathan Hanson and to help and create that sense of community? So I think these kind of immersive experiences like the stranger things pop-up is certainly, I think an important aspect of engagement that is kind of emerging, but I would say it's not particularly new, right? I think this idea that entertainment and shopping intersect has been experimented with really going back to the 90s. It's certainly, I think, building off of a kind of earlier desire to create this kind of what they call retail attainment, I think it's worth a call, right? This idea of the merging of entertainment and retail. I think we're gonna see more of that, right? I think it's both a way to engage actual fans, but also a way to draw people into an experience, into a lifestyle, right? Where you can see yourself really sort of participating more actively, always in very managed ways. Part of what we wanna think of is that these experiences, they give participants a set of options, which is better than having none at all, but oftentimes in a very managed way, right? So that there's their limits on what you can actually do within this experience. I think that's, but I think it's not, so I think it's part of the way in which brand owners and the retail industry and consumer product divisions and licensing divisions within the entertainment industries are trying to address the importance of engagement among fan communities, that desire for that communal experience, but manage it in a way that sets it, first of all, sets it in retail spaces, right? I think to my understanding, the stranger things pop up was mostly in like mall settings and other types of,
Avi Santos you know, environments that- Exactly, it's like really trying to think one channel, like some of those cultural things of the 80s, malls and et cetera, right? But yeah, it was definitely more in public gathering spaces.
Jonathan Hanson Right, you know, and I think that, so I think we'll see increasingly a lot more of that. I think we also will see, we'll see it at the more high-end version of it, the intersection of like, you know, Star Wars or Marvel with like fashion shows, you know, and things like that. All that as part of a kind of acquisition of what we might think of the sort of association of economic capital with sort of social and cultural capital. I think that the other area that we're gonna see, and it's still something that's being worked out, you know, I had done these series of interviews with sort of heads of consumer product divisions in the entertainment industry over the last 10 years. And I just published a book on this called Configuring the Field of Character Licensing. You know, I can send you a link to it if you'd like. But one of the sort of key arguments I make, I have this chapter on it where I'm thinking about how the contemporary sort of character licensing industry is wrestling with the emergence of sort of these digital spaces and born digital properties. You know, obviously it's not new, right? But I mean, but over the course of the decade and what, you know, consumers want from that experience. And increasingly what, you know, consumers want are these customizable opportunities, right? One of the things that digital spaces and the internet and spaces like Etsy, Afford is the ability to, you know, customize something to look the way you want it, to, you know, kind of, you know, it's an on-demand sort of shopping experience that radically goes against the models that are in place for how products reach consumers, right? So when Nike develops a new shoe, right? You know, sometimes they're, you know, sometimes they might invite fans to participate in making recommendations. Sometimes they just choose a celebrity who sort of stands in for a fan community or they have a fan community already. But once they've made their decision about the shoe that they're gonna produce, you know, they contract a manufacturer likely in China or some other developing country where it's a low cost manufacturing opportunity. And then they connect either directly through their online retail store or their Nike or their own stores or to the relationships with retail partners that they have to get these things on shelves. It's rarely the opportunity, you know, other than if it's like a made a sort of big sort of once and a, you know, like a stunt opportunity where you can go to Nike's website and you can design your own Nike shoe and they will custom make that particular pair of shoes just for you. And if you can do that, have that be affordable, you know? And so I think we're seeing here is that the future beyond these kinds of immersive experiences isn't trying to figure out how you can create these kinds of customizable opportunities, you know, that kind of meet fans where they're at. I interviewed someone who was head of a company that ultimately didn't succeed, it went bankrupt. It was called Peacemaker. And I think it's an interesting play on the word peace, right? It's spelled peace like P-I-E-C, you like making pieces. But I think it was about mediation also between sort of the desires of brand owners and retailers and the desires of fans. So what this company proposed to do was set up 3D printers in retail stores that could allow fans to get certain customized objects for particular brands that could be sort of printed on demand, but still controlled. And so the example they often gave was like, you know, Barbie, right? It wouldn't, you know, the machine wouldn't 3D print an actual Barbie doll, you know, but what it could do is it could offer you a number of customized op selections of outfits that it could print for you, you know, while you shopped, right, it would take, you know, take an hour or 90 minutes, you'd go around the store, they'd want you to have a great, you know, great buying experience, and then you can come back and get this item. And the idea was that it facilitated a certain amount of customization, but it also provided limitations. They were very explicit with saying, this way Mattel could make consumers feel like they're getting what they want, but could also ensure that no one was gonna print, you know, the Barbie dress where she's giving someone the finger, you know? So, you know, so it was about trying to manage and mitigate the sort of customization opportunities. It didn't succeed, it didn't succeed in part because I think people don't wanna wait 90 minutes in a store for this object. And I also think that they probably had some licensing challenges in terms of getting brand owners to sort of buy into this. I think there's brand owners often have concerns about the quality of merchandise and 3D printing is still kind of on the edge. On one hand, we see it doing amazing things and like, you know, biomedics and other types of places. On the other hand, I'm not sure, you know, that Adidas would like ultimately support, you know, 3D printed shoes.
Avi Santos Yeah, there's a brand safety aspect to it, right? Like, and what I think is interesting when we look at the word IP, you know, intellectual property, it assumes ownership. It was created to protect the ownership of it. And at a certain point, I think, like as we've talked about a bit, sometimes the fans and people who are really love it often advance and create things that are better than the original source in some ways. But the IP can get in the way of making that a more widespread thing. And it just, and it seems like such a, like a tricky dance between telling your fans not to do something because you risk alienating and with them boycotting and everything else, and then also embracing the thing so much that they can add to it. So, you know, when I think about this, I wonder where do you draw the line between like fan co-creation and maintaining, you know, brand safety or making sure quality is there. You know, and I'm wondering if this is maybe the new, a new opportunity for brands to think as they think about, you know, supply chain has been a big issue here. And that's kind of what we're getting at with the idea with Nike. Like it's really hard to like be able to just customize and make things for a million people. So as brands think the impossible, so as brands think through like their supply chain and how they are able to produce things, I think this could be an opportunity to help really, I think, pull some of these ideas together and create more customized pieces
Jonathan Hanson that play off their original IP. So I think there's a lot of, a lot there to unpack. And I'm gonna sort of try and tap into a couple of different threads that you've mentioned. So on the one hand, I think that it's sometimes a misnomer that brand owners somehow are always gonna choose higher quality and safety over, you know, fan communities. There's lots of examples where brand owners, you know, engage in unethical sweatshop labor practices and will choose the cheapest mechanism possible to get something on storefronts actually. And there's also lots of examples where, you know, fan-made merchandise is incredibly high quality in part because that's what the fan community demands. So sometimes I think it's an argument that's made as a sort of straw argument, right? That isn't necessarily, that's designed to sort of allow brand owners and IP owners to maintain their control, but it isn't always fully backed by actual evidence supporting this in all instances. And I think that's partly a recognition of that and an admission of that allows for a potential expansion of what is possible within this space. Secondarily, and this is, you know, again, important. I think it's important to recognize that like, that the actual understanding of what intellectual property law and particularly copyright law is supposed to do, trademark law works a little bit differently and I'm happy to talk about that as well, right? Is that intellectual property law is designed to help strike a balance between the rights of creators slash owners, it's complicated because a lot of the people who own, a lot of the companies that own these brands aren't the actual creatives, but it's supposed to strike a balance between the rights of creatives, creators slash owners, and the rights of the public. And that balance is embedded in things like term limits and, you know, and also fair use claims, right? So in other words, it's not simply that, licenses are one mechanism that can do that as well, which is what I'm moving towards, right? But if we think of it as, if we understand that intellectual property law is supposed to strike a balance, right? It's about, it basically recognizes that at some point in time, the rights of society may be greater than the rights of the owners of this particular intellectual property. And that even if that intellectual property is still profitable, the rights of society eclipse it. We see these arguments happen all the time, for example, over when a character like Mickey Mouse is about to go into the public domain, right? Where the sort of terms of copyright expiring, Disney is petitioning, of course, to get those terms extended even further. And they'll often argue things like, well, but, you know, we're still making money off of Mickey Mouse, so you can't go into public domain. That's not how actually, that's not actually how copyright law works, right? It doesn't matter if Mickey is still profitable. At some point in time, the argument is that as a piece of Americana, as a sort of emblem that has sort of become so, you know, ubiquitous in American's lives and people in kids' lives, as they establish who they are, at some point in time, the rights of the public greatly exceed Disney's rights, right? And there needs to be a place where that shift happens. They also argue things like, well, if Mickey went into the public domain, you know, people would abuse it. They don't understand the value, the values that Mickey stands for. You'd have all this Mickey Mouse pornography. First of all, Mickey Mouse pornography is fair use. So it already exists. You know, but secondly, it's a kind of, it's a diminishment of the idea that, you know, that essentially the public, basically what it wants to do is basically suggest that brand owners and corporations are the only ones capable of being effective stewards of these brands, right? That the reason to entrust Mickey Mouse to Disney is not just because Mickey, because Disney is making money from Mickey Mouse, but because Disney is the only company capable of truly understanding Mickey's inherent value, the values that Mickey stands for, the meanings that, you know, that he convey, that the character conveys to the public. I think if we, if companies were willing to move away from some of that rhetoric, that's, you know, that would, you know, it would generate a slightly different mindset. And so ultimately, you know, that's not a practical solution, but it's about recognizing that a lot of this is driven by a mindset that basically suggests that corporations must constantly look to protect their IP at all times in ways that often close down even the possibility of imagining co-creation opportunities or collaborative opportunities, or even just the very idea that maybe there are meanings that are attached to a particular property that are not necessarily the ones the company thinks, you know, thinks they are. And so I think like if that mindset shifts and then that's accompanied by a kind of ability, I think, to work directly with entrepreneurs on let's say sites like Etsy or Redbubble through licensing agreements, right? You know, these could be, you know, where I think fan, where certain fan owners, as long as they met certain criteria, you know, and what those criteria are matter. I mean, ultimately, right? Those criteria might be so restrictive that it undermines the very objective here, but ultimately, if there was some sort of criteria that largely focused on, what's the word I'm looking for here? Some sort of compliance around quality and safety, which I do think are really paramount, maybe a little bit more flexibility around content, maybe still within certain parameters, but, you know, then I think that that could happen. In fact, we do see examples of that, right? There are, in fact, you know, store owners on Etsy that do have licensing agreements with brand owners, you know, and they become the only ones capable of producing a particular version of a particular character. You know, sites like Etsy and Redbubble are not very good at foregrounding that, in part because their entire ethos is about, this is like, you know, bottom-up, you know, crafting spaces. So, but at the end of the day, I mean, they're run like businesses, right? I mean, at the end of the day, a shop owner on Etsy is, despite the rhetoric that they're doing it for the love of it, you know, is likely trying to actually make a living off of this, or at the very least, if not make a living off of it, you know, make more money than it costs them, you know, to run, to buy materials and make this, you know, and take time out of, away from another job in order to make this, these objects, and then to factor in whatever Etsy is going to charge them in terms of, you know, all, you know, for being, for having a place on, having a store site on their, on their web platform. So I do think, you know, if we accept on one hand, a lot of entrepreneurs are practicing, you know, kind of, you know, what we might think of as a small business ownerment approach, you know, and operating in what might be considered a gray economy, you know, where they are, you know, they're using pretty normative business practices, but the only difference is that they're usually selling content and materials that is not officially licensed. And then if you combine that with the fact that a lot of brand owners oftentimes overplay how much of an investment they have in, you know, in quality protection versus, and the desire is there versus necessarily the actual, you know, follow through, then, you know, then I think that there's a way in which these groups can come together. So it's a very long way of saying, yes, I think that there is an opportunity for co-creation and for licensing agreements that are amended for, particularly for fan communities, but it probably starts with a broader set of recognitions that some of the kind of assumptions that we have about brand owners and their sort of positions and bands and what they're doing are not always jelling
Avi Santos what's actually happening. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And we're approaching time and as we wrap things up, I would love to hear from you. You mentioned earlier a little bit about your own personal experience with your kids' fandom in some ways. What are you really into right now? What are you, are you watching anything that has you participating at least in a community or is it more of a personal experience
Jonathan Hanson within that thing you're engaging with? Yeah, you know, so, you know, my kids got really into, my kids and myself got really into the She-Ra and the Princesses of Power Netflix series from a couple of years ago, a couple of years back, during the pandemic, so we watched it, we binge watched it multiple times, and so I'm very interested in the, there's a good example of a property, so She-Ra, similar to He-Man, owned by Hasbro,
Avi Santos it's Mattel. I thought it was Mattel, but I could be wrong. It's Mattel, I think it's okay.
Jonathan Hanson I think I said, it's Mattel, I think I said, corrected in post, it's Mattel. Okay. So, you know, like, you know, so these are properties that in the 80s were largely designed, and these TV series were designed to sell toys, right? I mean, they come out when there's a kind of deregulation of children's media content, and they essentially are accused, you know, rightfully so of being 30-minute commercials. They're also very creative. I mean, they create an entire story world around these characters, you know, and they have some very clever ways of highlighting both the importance of individual characters, but also the importance of collective play, right? You can't have battles without 15 characters in them because they want you to buy more than one doll. And so it makes sense that when She-Ra and the Princesses of Power is re-released on Netflix in 2018, that this would also be part of a broader merchandising campaign, but I don't know how much you know about that series, but, you know, it basically, it's showrunner, Noelle Stevenson, openly queer, and the show itself is very queer, you know? So many of the characters on that show, you know, exist in a certain, you know, either openly gay or bisexual, or even a transgender character on it. And so, you know, the show itself, I think, you know, I mean, certainly I think it's a space that if you're, if those are themes you care about, they're present, you know, in a space that is, you know, I think a really lovely also, you know, adventure, you know, space featuring very strong female characters. Not surprisingly, perhaps, right? Because of these kind of queer themes, Mattel backs away very quickly from merchandising. So during the first year of the show, you will find some like, you know, Barbie-esque dolls and things like that that they release, but then they never release it afterwards, you know? So it suggests that the other day that like, you know, their investment in sort of producing merchandise, you know, maybe hits a wall when it comes to the concerns that retailers have over how well this would fly on shelves and things like that. As a result, you know, if you are, you know, if you're a fan of the show, you can't find stuff. So you have to basically engage in a combination of things. You have to really work through a lot of these sort of entrepreneurial sites on Etsy, get stuff commissioned or buy stuff that's being made there. Or you have to do some really deep diving into searching for these, you know, merchandising opportunities that existed right at the early onset of the show. And so a lot of what we're doing, you know, is we are sort of working collectively to try to, you know, you know, some of the stuff is going to be very expensive, I should say. So what my kids and I are doing is we're kind of doing this, you know, this kind of archaeology experiment, if you will, where what we're doing is we're sort of tracing together. My kids are now 12, so they're nine, really young, it's a place where they are interested in these things. What we're tracing together, the sort of lineage of how some of these sort of opportunities come about. Like there was, for example, a partnership between Netflix and Sonic, you know, for a very brief period of time. They produced the She-Ra Princess of Power giveaways with your kids' meal, you know. And so can we trace and find some of these things? And actually, I think that that is something where a lot of, getting back to a question you asked earlier, you know, when we think about what fan can be, the distinction between a fan who buys things versus just somebody who buys, just a regular consumer buys things, a lot of it, I think, has to do with the kind of way in which that object is part of a sort of opportunity to build, sort of build and participate in sort of the creation of essentially archival knowledge around particular experiences, right? So, you know, yes, the object might say something about me, you know, if you came to my house or if I put a photo of it online, it is an opportunity for me to express something about who I am. But oftentimes, you know, a lot of fan acquisition practices are very much connected to wanting to sort of construct, if you will, an alternate history, you know, a kind of cultural history that is often ignored, right? You know, that oftentimes a lot of the branded products that get created around, you know, sort of fandoms are seen as ephemeral. They're seen as, you know, sort of unimportant. But oftentimes they are, you know, their importance are not only to that particular individual or to that community, but they actually provide really meaningful snapshots in time around a particular sort of, you know, moment that actually can be very illuminating about a broader historical practice. Right. So the other thing that, you know, I'm doing right now is I'm invested in collecting. Merchandise, licensed merchandise that came out of the original Dune film adaptation, the film directed by David Lynch in 1985. I don't know if you've ever seen this film. You ever seen the original Dune? I haven't seen the original. All right. So are you familiar with David Lynch's work? Yes. So as you might have been familiar with David Lynch's work, you might imagine that this is not. Going to be a family friendly sci fi romp, because his work is often disturbing and gross, you know, and methodical and slow and it's really more art than it is like genre based. And if you watch the film, that's exactly what you're getting. However, you know, the, you know, the studio that produced the film believed that what they had on their hands was next Star Wars. And so they produced this array of merchandise around the film, action figures, vehicles, all, you know, kids birthday party ephemera, because they really thought this was going to be it. They're going to make this killing, which, of course, it didn't happen. You know, and so as a result, you know, you can't. It's hard to find a lot of these things. They sort of came and went off the shelves very quickly, but they're also very revealed. And so if you're a collector, it's kind of fun to have some of these things because they capture, you know, that kind of, you know, something that is rare. But what's most interesting for me is the ability to basically use these objects to tell a story about the ways in which oftentimes brand owners don't understand what their consumers want, right? How this is example of a failed merchandising and licensing story. You know, why would anybody watching this film think the kids are going to want to play with this stuff? Nobody in their right mind would. But it's because they're following a sort of set script of what they think. Like, well, it's a sci fi movie and, you know, Star Wars sold all these toys. So we're going to sell all these toys. No one hand is not talking to the other. So it's a useful, you know, to owning these things allows me to essentially, you know, tell a story about a moment in time where the entertainment industries were not necessarily working effectively well together to understand and their audience, to understand the consumer, where consumer product divisions oftentimes just follow the leads of the studios rather than actually thinking about, well, let's actually watch this film and figure out, you know, where might there be a actual meaningful consumer or fan audience for this? It's sort of not going to be kids. You know, so I mean, so when we think about why fans buy stuff, it's often for those abilities to, you know, participate in that archival archiving of history, of that ability to sort of happen to a certain knowledge set that is, you know, usually perceived as. Unimportant, right? I mean, at the end of the day, I mean, you know, compared to compared to many other things happening in the world, perhaps this failure to effectively merchandise Dune seems small, but it's actually something, you know, but for that community of fans, it can be a very important pathway into sort of talking about the relationship between consumers and brand owners, you know, and advocating for different practices. Oftentimes I'm pointing out what's not work. Some of that stuff's kind of fun to have, but it's fun.
Avi Santos Even nostalgia for the time period or whatever memories connected to it. You know, I think of like the I call them Taco Bell movies, but they're all the movies that used to be on the on the collector's cups for the Taco Bell drive through or, you know, those are, you know, like from back in the day, like Honey, Honey, I shrunk the kids or shrank the kids. This is like one of those movies that for some reasons like burned in my mind just from from just the fantasy side of it as a kid, but then also then going through the drive through and trying to collect the cups. And then, you know, I remember that summer so keenly just because of those cups. It's it's a really interesting nostalgia play and and thinking of archiving and a way to to experience that that feeling again.
Jonathan Hanson I think that's exactly right. I think what would I think as a personalized form of fandom, that's oftentimes what these objects can do is they can tap into that that nostalgia, that sort of memory that you have that moment in time. I think as you move into a collective piece, right, it's about what you then, you know, those these objects allow you to that. I think you're capturing a little. It's a heart of a lot of things. It's not so much that this, you know, Honey, I shrunk the kids, you know, Taco Bell Cup, you know, it demonstrates anything deep and meaningful about your relationship to that particular movie. Owning that object allows you to say something about yourself. Right. So its value is how it allows you to express something about who you are. Right. And it's, you know, it might allow you to demonstrate knowledge that you have about the cultural or economic or business relationship that generated this. Right. So it allows you to kind of participate in a certain kind of knowledge economy that could have more of a communal aspect. It could be a weird thing that allows you to sort of establish a certain kind of, you know, reputation amongst peers. They all have a person who owns these oddities. Right. And they sort of allow that. They help you sort of, you know, sort of position yourself within a particular group of people. Increasingly, I think a lot of fans around, you know, this is the the key here is that, you know, a lot of times the relationships that people have with brands and with objects is not any deep filiality to the text. Right. I mean, this is something you've asked this question. One of the questions you'd send me, but we didn't really talk about was, you know, what's the difference between, let's say, a fan of a of a brand, you know, a brand versus the fan of a media property. A lot of it has to do with the way stories align. Right. And when you are the other day, you know, when you're a fan of a media property, right, you may in fact, you know, that fan may exist at the level of narrative, right, where you are able to engage in conversations with other communities around the story, around characterization, around plot, around these things. But it's also oftentimes about an engaged knowledge around the production of that property. And it's an engaged sort of conversation around the story of being a fan in that community. Right. That story is just as oftentimes the story of being a fan in that community is just as important, if not more important in the story of the of that property itself. When you're a fan of, let's say, you know, Nike or any other brand out there, you know, brand, you know, there's not a clear narrative. I mean, sometimes Nike will attempt or sometimes brands will attempt to create a very clear, coherent narrative around that. But oftentimes what you're dealing with is a kind of brand story, right? A set of like ideas attached to the brand that, you know, may resonate with certain consumers. So it's actually more actively likely the case that what those brands have to do to cultivate fans is allow for the fans story for the consumer story to emerge through the brand. Right. That owning this object allows you to say something about yourself. Right. It's not so much about Nike. It's about the way in which, you know, somebody saying, hey, those are really that's a really cool, you know, whatever, you know, set of set of sneakers you have. Well, this will allow you to tell a story about how you bought them, where you found them, you know, why they're meaningful to you, how you were wearing them when you met, you know, your future partner. Right. That these objects have to be able to sort of give that space for consumers, you know, to be able to tell their story through them. And in so doing, align the brand with those stories. And that's different than basically trying to sort of create a fictional consumer that is instantly aligned with that brand. It's often you have to do much more of that kind of grounded sociological work to understand what consumers want.
Avi Santos Yeah, sometimes I read a lot of, you know, audience profiles or consumer profiles. And sometimes I just don't think they add a lot of value when you think from a brand perspective, because I don't think it necessarily gets that either some of those psychological needs, those stories, whatever, whatever the connection is, is usually such a like a stamp of like what you would expect. This person is so old, they make so much money, live here, they tend to do this. They like basketball. They interact with basketball by doing this. And that's kind of it. So I definitely think there's a lot of opportunity in as far as research and consumer marketing and really how to channel that more. And that's something we're after, something we're studying and trying to figure out as we go on down this path of fandom.
Jonathan Hanson Are you going to are you guys going to conventions or Comic Cons and M.I.P.A.D.? Are you sort of setting up space there to talk to people?
Avi Santos We've been doing we've been doing that's part of the that's part of the program or part of our future work. As of now, our strategist has been working and doing different surveys and polls and out there talking with folks and collecting data and interpreting what trying to interpret some some insights and how that could unfold for a value for a brand. We're going to be coming out with a report in the next, I don't know, a couple of weeks to a month. I'm happy to send you as well that that breaks down some of that. Yeah, I'd love to see that.
Jonathan Hanson Yeah, I do think, you know, I think you're absolutely right that there's a lot of opportunity for, you know, brand consultants and, you know, to to really understand fan practice and some of the kind of experiential sort of components that drive a lot of activity. I do think, you know, I think surveys are great. You know, I think they're useful. Glad you're doing that. I really ultimately think the most insight you're going to gain is going to be ethnographic. Right. So I think it's about, you know, actually doing some participant observation in spaces where fan communities exist. Those can be physical spaces. I mean, obviously, as I like comic cons or, you know, you know, various memorabilia conventions or brand convention or, like, you know, D3 conventions can be really useful. They sort of just observe what people are doing and where and where you begin to see some of the kind of like what does it look mundane practice be central to like the experience for that community? So I really I mean, I strongly encourage that kind of immersive work, you know, when you can get it. And I think, frankly, just also just listening. I mean, and generally it's true about all brand owners. Right. So there's because branding is so much a part of marketing that there's often this strong desire to speak to consumers. You know, and I wonder if there's more value to be gained in figuring out how to listen to consumers in a real meaningful way. And there's always a claim that we're listening, but I'm not sure what you know, often that listening comes when someone sends like, you know, a comment through a feedback channel, which is not the same as actually engaging them
Avi Santos where they're at in their practice. No, I think that's a great point. And there's I think there's a lot of case studies out there that have shown how certain properties have listened well. I think I talk about this one, my other one of our other episodes that hasn't aired yet, but the HBO series Last of Us, I thought did an excellent job of some of the social listening and how to really keep things authentic for those for those big fans of the video game, but also use it for a way to get them to be advocates and help speak for the show, market the show in their own terms and in their own ways and gave them sort of those tools. When if people are interested in reading more about your writing and your work, where can they find some of that stuff?
Jonathan Hanson I mean, you know, on Amazon, all this all. So I have two books. I have, you know, the one first one is Selling the Silver Bullet, which is going to use the Lone Ranger as a prolonged case study to look at the early history of character licensing and merchandising in the entertainment industry from the 1930s to the present. And then I just recently published a book through Routledge called Configuring the Field of Character Entertainment Licensing. This is using in-depth interviews and participant observation at the Licensing Expo in Las Vegas to talk about, you know, sort of how the field of licensing is cultivated, how people who do this work come to understand what the work is and how sort of negotiating and navigating sort of the shifting terrain of licensing and merchandising around particularly things related to digital, but also globalization and a sort of consolidation of retail. Right. So the sort of shift away from, you know, many different retail opportunities. So I think, you know, that book is really kind of designed to think about sort of the. Not the haps, not a it's not a how to book, it's not a how to do the work of licensing, but a really an understanding of just sort of what people working in the field understand the field to be in this particular moment. And then, you know, I mean, I think you obviously came across my essay on fans and merchandise. I've also published work on sort of retail and retails as a storytelling site, which I'm happy to send you a copy that article on. And this forthcoming piece on pop topic, you know, as a kind of interesting sort of case study for thinking about the intersection of fandom and consumer culture. I am working right now on a collection of essays with a collaborative collaborator of mine, and you might be interested in talking to as well. Her name is Elizabeth Afuso. And it's a collection of essays tentatively titled Acquiring Fandom. And so the goal of this collection is to take seriously the practice of acquisition within fan cultures, right, to really think about, you know, what are some of the things that drive acquisition choices among fans, how acquisition becomes a meaningful space of identity and community formation, but also a site of a site of struggle over decision making. And it's also a space we're working through increasingly the acquisition of life acquisition of fandom as a lifestyle. Right. The way in which basically lifestyle is connected to acquisition practices. So that's that's a couple of years away from being on shelves, but we're actively working on that now.
Avi Santos So that's the next piece. Great. Well, thanks so much for joining us. I really enjoyed the conversation. And I will definitely be in touch. I want to follow up with you on those on those links.
Jonathan Hanson Happy to follow up. Appreciate your time. Hope it was useful.
Avi Santos Talk to you soon. Thank you. Is it OK if in show notes we posted a link to the work that you sent me?
Jonathan Hanson Sure. OK, so I'll make sure. I'm happy to send you links for that. That'd be great. All right. Awesome. All right. Thank you so much. I appreciate your time today. You too.
Avi Santos All right. Bye bye.