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We share our thoughts and ideas on how to grow a business.
that don't have a marketing
background, that I need to hire some
specialist in the very beginning.
I need to hire a content marketer.
I need to hire a paid ads person.
I need to hire any of these people.
To me, the right person is a
marketing generalist, actually, who
has a strength in one or two areas.
So they have a broad enough foundation
that they've held different roles in
marketing, and they have some of this
experience of getting feedback from
the customers, doing messaging and
positioning stuff, because I don't
think there is a right channel mix
at the very beginning of a business.
I think you're constantly iterating,
you're figuring it out, and then you're
putting a little bit of fuel behind the
fire and seeing if you can keep things
constant while you're, you're putting
more resources or money behind it.
Then you're just trying to scale
that one channel as much as possible.
Okay, in today's episode,
um, I'm the podcast host.
Okay.
So I'm, I'm the captain now and, and I
am going to interview Benji and we're
going to do a fun hypothetical that we
think, um, not we think that is emblematic
of conversations we have with a bunch
of both our actual clients and a bunch
of companies that we talk to in these
kinds of lead discussions, um, about
a bigger picture marketing strategy.
Where do you spend budget?
What kind of channel blend?
And where should you focus?
And we, as a content SEO agency, are
just one aspect of it, but we inevitably
get tied into those conversations.
So here is the premise.
Benji, you are the first marketing
hire of a B2B SaaS company.
That has decent growth so far Enough
to sort of prove some level of
product market fit Let's just say
that in the hypothetical and then we
can even discuss what if they didn't
well also like what does that mean?
Yeah, that's actually a good point and
but they've grown to date on just kind
of Random word of mouth and the founders
the founders like multiple founders
let's say or the founding team and the
whatever is like kind of referrals and
word of mouth and they Started a product
hunt and their friend got them to trend
on hacker news Or they have a friend
at TechCrunch or something or whatever.
And so now they're like, let's formalize
marketing They hire Benji, God help them.
And, um, and let's say you have
probably their best hire yet, actually.
Yeah.
And you roll up your
arms and start coding.
God, that would ruin
the product real fast.
So, the, the uh, let's give you a budget.
I don't know, you've
been in those situations.
My mind went to like I think the
budget is irrelevant at this point.
Oh, interesting.
Yeah, like we can talk about that, but
I don't even think that's important.
What do you do?
Let's start there.
What are the first things you do?
This is day one of your job.
I actually want to flip it around.
Instead of what I'm going to do, I
actually kind of want to talk about
it from the company's perspective.
Like, what should they be looking
for, even, in a marketing hire?
Oh, interesting.
And because I think one of the big
issues is that the company or the
founder, if they're not a marketer,
often has a very different idea
of what they want for marketing
at this stage when they're hiring
their first marketer, then basically
what they should be thinking about.
Uh, let me play as devil's
advocate and say, no, they don't.
Everybody just wants to grow.
That that's my response.
So yes, and I agree.
But.
Oftentimes they're not ready to grow and
what I mean, they're not ready to grow.
They're not ready to invest heavily
in marketing channels if they
haven't really had a marketing
channel that's been proven yet.
And so you gave the example of, let's
say a founder, a company that's grown
to, I don't even know you, you could
grow to like, 500, 000 a million dollars.
I've even seen companies at two, 3
million a year that have completely
grown through their network and kind
of word of mouth at this point, but
they haven't really invested heavily
into marketing and now that they want
to build that marketing foundation out.
And a lot of people have
this misconception that if
they've grown to those revenue
amounts, let's say 500 million.
Like, especially a million.
If you've grown a business to a million
dollars a year, often times the founder
thinks we have product market fit.
How could we have grown to a
million dollars a year if we
don't have product market fit?
I think that.
Clearly people want our product, they're
buying it, so that, that 100 percent
means we have product market fit.
I mean, I can give you an example of
a prior company that I worked for that
was exactly in the same situation.
The funny thing is I know
exactly who you're talking about.
Yeah, but it definitely did not
have product market fit because
they hadn't proven how to basically
market and sell the product.
Cold to customers who haven't heard
about them So how the heck did
they get to a million dollars then?
Because they had a lot of connections
through VCs and they had a lot of
connections through the founder And
so the founder used warm introductions
to get in front of that person to
get in front of the right people
They were the head salesperson.
They were really good at selling
And then they tried to basically
build out an entire sales team to
replicate what the founder was doing.
But the sales team doesn't have
those same worm connections.
They now have to sell into accounts cold.
They didn't really have the
right messaging foundation.
So like, what, what is, what
are we actually selling and how
do we sell into these accounts?
So like a lot of that
process wasn't there.
And a lot of the strategy for how to
go cold into businesses wasn't there.
They had figured out basically how
to sell through warm connections,
but they hadn't figured out how
to sell through cold channels.
So then they tried to basically hire
a team and they hired like five people
at once and they hired me to run
marketing and we built out a marketing
team and nothing had been figured out.
At this point, like they hadn't
figured out how to sell cold.
So they're trying to figure
out cold calling while they
already have five people.
They're trying to figure out marketing
while they now have me plus a full team.
And they're, they're under the assumption
that they have product market fit just
cause they have revenue coming in.
Let's take this story, but
go back to where we started.
And I think I asked you some
questions that got us off track.
You just said, I said, okay,
it's day one of your job.
What are you going to do?
And you said, I actually want
to flip this back to the company
and say, what do they want?
And I challenged that and
said, what do you mean?
Like they, they just want to grow.
So even in your story of this
company, you said like they, they,
they hadn't sold to cold audiences
before it was all like warm.
So they haven't figured
out how to grow yet.
And, and what I mean, and they, isn't
that your job as the first, yes, but
the mistake was, The founder hiring
me to scale the business before
the business was ready to scale.
So in my mind, I'm coming into the
business, I'm learning about the business,
talking to customers, trying to figure out
why they're buying, what the use cases,
all the challenges from the customer's
perspective to try to figure out then
how we're going to message to them, how
we're going to position the business,
what our homepage copy needs to be.
Does our, our homepage even
clearly describe what we do?
Is it all evident and stuff like that?
So I think that step one is the marketer
should be coming into the business
to learn about the business and you
need to figure out basically, do you
have the right messaging to sell?
to a cold audience, the right positioning
and messaging to sell to a cold audience.
Do you have prospects coming
in that clearly understand your
website just by reading it?
Are there people clicking to sign
up for a demo or a trial without
you basically needing to explain
the value props to them other than
a single landing page or a homepage?
That's what hadn't been proven at
this business up until this point.
So their website was kind of
just like a placeholder and.
The founder was the one going like going
into these deals and basically selling
but then The issue was when we had a
team that was built to then sell they
couldn't close deals the same way the
the messaging wasn't clear like people
didn't understand the value of what we
were doing and so While they were able
to open up some sales conversations
like the pipeline wasn't there They
couldn't predictably get leads in the
door and close them At any sort of rate.
And to me, it was because the
product market fit was, wasn't there.
When I brought this to the founder, they
challenged me and they said, there's
zero chance we couldn't have product
market fit at this point, we're at like
one or 2 million in revenue and they
just didn't want to listen to me at all.
And they were just like, focus on growing.
And to me, the issue was the
foundation wasn't built yet.
And so what is that foundation?
That foundation is the proper
messaging and positioning.
That when you basically put that in
front of someone through any channel,
whether it's content, whether it's ads,
whether it's a cold email that it piques
someone's interest enough to want to talk
to you or come in and sign up for a lead.
So that, that is like the number one
thing that I think someone needs to
figure out if they're coming into
a new marketing role is what is the
core value prop of this business?
Who is the audience that I'm going after?
And then, yeah, like what's the best
way to, to sell and get this value
prop in front of the right people.
And at this point it's channel agnostic.
That's why I said like the
budget isn't really important
to do, to do this kind of work.
It just requires talking to
prospects and talking to customers
and trying to figure out what are
the alternatives in the market?
What is the core value of the service
or the, or the product that they're
signing up for from existing users?
Like you need to just figure out that
fundamental stuff in the very beginning.
Okay.
So if I can boil it down, which I
feel bad kind of trying to be too
reductionist to what you just said,
but you're saying, make sure the
positioning and messaging is right.
And we can link in the show notes to this.
We've written a couple articles, at
least one on positioning where we
kind of dove into this a few years
ago, which is still very relevant
now, going back to this hypothetical.
What are you then telling the
founders or whoever hired you?
Like, what is your concrete plan
of like, how do you do this?
Like, do you buy some Google ad
traffic, for example, to put a
concrete hypothetical out there?
Cause I've heard this happen.
Who said this, is this some of the
lean startup tactics or whatever
of just like, you know, you, you,
you, you create a landing page with
some hypothesis of positioning.
You buy some like Google ads for
people Googling for whatever, like your
software is or something or your product,
and then you see who clicks to buy.
In this case, in my hypothetical,
in the Lean Startup thing, you like,
it's kind of a fake landing page.
There's nothing, there's no product there.
In my hypothetical, there's like a
product that has a million dollar revenue.
There's like a demo.
So what, what would you actually do?
There's different ways.
So yeah, what you're saying is good
if the product is pre launched, but in
your example, there's already customers,
there's already a landing page, or
you could even use the homepage heck.
So, but what are you
telling the founding team?
Like I need this much time and this, and
what are you going to actually do to test?
So, so my first month in the business
would just be talking to customers,
nothing else, literally, I would just,
I would call up customers or email
customers and ask them some of their time.
And then I would just ask them.
Why did you initially sign up?
Like what, what piqued your interest?
What were you trying to do?
What were you doing before?
What other competitors do you look for?
And you talk to enough customers and you
start to find patterns of their spot.
Like what is the core value
that you find from our service?
There, there's like a list of questions.
Again, I can link to it.
A lot of it is based off of
Sean Ellis created this, um,
product market fit survey.
And so some of the questions
that I use are taken from that.
And some of them are just things that
I've learned throughout my career,
good questions to ask, to just
understand the psychology of the buyer.
And so in that first month, I'm talking
to customers, just trying to understand
their psychology, their pain points,
what they're trying to do, why they're
buying, and then basically I'm looking
at our existing messaging and positioning
and trying to figure out if that maps
to what I just heard from the customers.
that that's step one, then
you're actually testing this.
And so if your hypothesis is there's
something off in the messaging or the
positioning, then you need to basically
change that and then retest it.
So if you already have traffic coming
into your website, if you already
have some cold channels coming to
your website, you can just change that
and see if you're getting an increase
in signups or demos or whatever.
If you're not.
You need to find a channel
to actually go test this in.
So you need to create
some sort of messaging.
It can be an article,
it can be your homepage.
It can be a landing page that basically
sells the value of what you're doing.
And then you need to get in front
of the right people and see if
you can drive conversions there.
What's interesting is when you
say testing, and for those that
don't know, when I met Benji.
I was running an A B testing
agency, which I'm still running
as like a shell of itself.
It's like a small thing.
Um, actually, aside when I met
Benji, he just we met at a dinner,
um, in San Francisco, and he had
just come literally from the office.
of that company with that CEO that
doesn't, that didn't trust him.
And, and you were in like a mood.
Like, like, people who know
Benji, like, Benji's usually a
very chill, kind of, sort of San
Diego surfer stereotype person.
But he was like, he was like, you were
like agitated because the guy had, I
think what you had told me that I still
remember was like, something about like,
You had some landing pages or something
and he was like, these are all terrible.
And you were like, they're
actually not anyway.
So that's kind of funny.
But when you say testing, I think
a lot of people will jump to like,
Oh, like, so like AB testing,
you don't actually mean that.
And as someone who has been a
professional AB tester for God
knows eight, nine years or something
now, I actually agree with you.
You mean just implement the change.
On a page that gets traffic.
And we're going to talk about
this in a second or buy traffic
or somehow send traffic to a page
and then just watch and measure.
I mean, we can give example, like
concrete examples from when we started
our business, because we kind of
went through this exact same process.
So for those that have been
following us for a long time, they'll
know that we launched a course.
Man, probably a 2018 or no, actually
before that 2016 as the first
product ID that we were going to do.
And.
We were all excited about that.
We had a small email list that we had
built just from the traffic that with
people that came to our site, we came up
with the positioning of that, that course,
we were all proud of it, thought it was
going to kill it, launched it, sent it
to like three or four, I think it was
actually like 5, 000 people at that time.
So we're like, Oh, we're going to get
like a 3 percent conversion rate on this.
And like no one bought.
And again, that's just an
indication that, you know, Our
messaging was completely off.
Like it, it wasn't that no one wanted
the course because we could see in the
replies to the email that people are
saying, Oh, this looks so interesting.
But when it came down to actually
purchasing the course, no one bought it.
And, and so what we did is we asked
some of those people, Oh, you, you
respond to the email and said, you
were so interested why you didn't buy.
And through a lot of those
learnings from getting feedback
from those prospects realize that.
They, they felt like it wasn't for them.
Yeah.
The reason is we, we wrote it, uh,
this is embarrassing to even say,
cause in hindsight it was so off, but
everyone makes these mistakes though.
It's not even embarrassing.
Like even, even people that are really
good marketers, again, like this is
the importance of testing things.
Like you can have a hypothesis about
what you think is going to work, but
until you put it out there, you just
don't know if it's going to work or not.
And you have to constantly iterate
and get feedback from your audience
to figure out where you're wrong
and then how to reposition things.
But yeah, keep going.
Our fundamental mistake of our
course at first is we wrote
it to the content marketer.
Well, no, we wrote it.
No, we wrote it to the company.
We had just come off of doing
workshops in person to basically train
content teams, how to do our process.
We got so much excitement
from those companies that.
We, and through that we were selling
to the CMO or VP of marketing that was
bringing us in to train their team.
And so we assumed that the course
would be the same audience that
the CMOs and VP types would
want to buy this for their team.
And in actuality, the people who wanted
courses and to learn what we were doing
were the content marketers themselves
or other freelancers or consultants
who had marketing agency who wanted to
basically replicate our own process.
Yeah.
Right.
So the copy, what it sounded like from
a positioning standpoint is we had stuff
like basically the message of the course
and the sales page was, you know, your
content marketing is not really working.
It's kind of like the message we have now.
For our agency, but it
doesn't work as a course.
And I'll explain why your
content marketing is not working.
You know, this course will help
you see why, um, blah, blah, blah.
Like now you can measure leads,
make sure that it's actually
like working and measuring leads.
And the CMO types were like, I
don't have time for a course.
Like, can I just hire you?
Meanwhile, the people who were like the
individuals who wanted to buy a course.
They didn't want to buy it to help
their company make more money.
They wanted to buy it for
their own career growth.
So they were like, I want to learn
this to either get more clients, be
able to leave my job and just start
my own thing like you guys have, or
just do a better job or whatever.
They were doing it like for themselves.
And so, yeah, selling it with
like, you know, you're losing leads
and like the you, as you said,
means the company that was off.
But anyway, let's get back on track.
When Benji says testing the
positioning, what I was saying
was he doesn't mean A B testing.
And here's why.
AB testing is looking for like these
small differences with statistical
significance and blah, blah, blah.
Right.
What we're talking about here
is huge swings where you don't
need an AB test to tell you.
We're not talking about like 10 percent
more, 20%, like in the AB testing that
our, my agency has done forever, a 20
percent lift is that's like massive.
You're just like, don't get that right.
These are these like big e commerce shops
or whatever, like, you know, there's
not, there's not 20 percent to be had,
but like, that's a separate thing.
We're talking about like.
Our previous version of the course,
it was like, we've like had it like
open for a week and we sold a handful.
It was just terrible.
Five, five or six.
Yeah.
And so yeah.
And so it's literally
working versus not working.
And you, and you've said this a lot, like
when you, when you have product market
fit, it's just like, it's on versus off.
Like you, you either are selling things
consistently or just nothing is working
and you're beating your head against
the wall and you can't figure it out.
And so when you're looking for these
massive shifts, so let's continue.
So you're saying you're going to tell
the founders, look, on month one,
I'm just going to figure this out.
Let's say they buy into what you
just said, like this, your pitch
for why this is important and
say, okay, um, so a month goes by.
Let's assume in order to get to
the conversation that I wanted to
get to, which is like marketing
channel mix and how to invest in it.
Let's assume you find some kind of
messaging that works because, well,
maybe we can discuss that first.
And if you don't, does that
mean the company's screwed?
Yeah, kind of.
I mean, as to me, as a marketer, you
can get into a business and realize
the business is completely screwed.
Because either the product's not good
enough, there's not enough demand,
they got something wrong in just their
hypothesis about how they wanted to solve
some certain problem, or the product
isn't good enough and there's better
competitors that operate at a cheaper
price, and as the marketer, If, if the
product team and the founder doesn't
listen to this feedback and they're not
willing to continually improve the product
or here's what the customers are saying,
here's what I think we need to improve
to get to that product market fit part.
And they're just kind of, um,
stubborn and think, no, this is, this
is the best product that we have.
We're not going to make changes right now.
That's not important.
Yeah, you could basically get into
the business and not achieve product
market fit and just as the marketer be
screwed because you know, you're not
going to be able to affect change on
the growth side in the proper ways.
And I can tell a couple of stories.
I know exactly what you mean.
We'll tell a couple of stories.
First of all, that is literally, I
shouldn't say, Oh wow, because that's
literally what we felt about the course.
And for those that don't know, and we
could, hopefully you can find and link
to the story in the show notes, but,
um, That's how we started the agency
is we tried a few iterations of this
and a bunch of people when we have, we
have a thriving course and community
now, but correct me if I'm wrong, we
actually got the positioning of all
that right after the agency, right?
My memory of events was we tried this
business positioning one and when we got
a couple of those emails of the CMO types
being like, Why would I buy a course?
Like I need to then hire someone.
Like, I'm not gonna take it.
I'm like the head of marketing.
I need to hire someone who's
like a practitioner to then
take your course and do it.
Can I just hire you?
And we were like, whoa, whoa.
Like, we're not an agency.
We don't have time for
that, blah, blah, blah.
And I remember having this kind of
like, um, you know, for lack of a better
term, like, come to Jesus call with you.
You were like in Bali, I think still.
And I was, I, I was in my, I
was living on my mom's couch.
And I was, I remember I was like pacing
on the front lawn and you were just
like, yeah, I was pacing in my backyard.
I remember exactly what I was.
We had this like wooden hammock
and I remember like balancing up on
it and not, and I was like, I have
spent so much time on this ridiculous
website called growandconvert.
com.
I have no money to show for it.
I haven't been spending time
on my AB testing agency.
Like we need to do
something with this or not.
And I was like, Benji, Benji.
Like there was some phrase
that someone said, like, don't
punch the market in the mouth.
Like the market is saying,
like, I want to just hire you.
We have no business model.
We have nothing.
We've made 0 like you're back
in the U S we let's just do it.
And you were like, no, no, no.
Like people don't realize how hard
content marketing is to actually execute.
Their expectations are not
going to be right or whatever.
Like it's going to cost a lot.
It's going to take a lot of resources.
And I was like, well, then
let's just pick a high number.
That's not, I was like, I was
like, if they offered you a
million dollars, you would do it.
So there's some number at
which we would say yes.
And that's how we started.
We started, I think at 6k and then 10.
Yeah.
So, I mean, that, that's also just a
good lesson is just having the right.
service or offering or product
for the right customer.
And so we had the right hypothesis in
terms of coming into this business and
wanting to solve this content marketing
problem and knowing there was a need in
the market for what we were trying to do.
We had the wrong offering in the
beginning and the wrong product
essentially to, to, to give that to them.
And we learned that the hard way through
launching and getting that feedback
in terms of, okay, If you don't want
our course, like what do you need?
Like what is valuable?
And you're right.
Like so many people came
back to that email saying.
We just want you to do it for you.
We trust you.
We've been reading your content.
We believe in what you're doing.
Just do it.
And so we're like, okay, we
need to start an agency now.
And then it became figuring out what the
right service offering is and continually
testing that and getting feedback.
But like, right after we changed that
messaging and everything, we got our first
two clients and we were off to the races.
And then it's like figuring out that
service offering, what's the right
strategy and all that kind of stuff.
But I.
Yeah, and it took years, but like this
constant iteration, especially when you
join as the head of marketing is what's
needed, whether it's a product and you're
giving feedback to the product team,
like these features we need to improve.
We're weak here.
Our pricing is too high.
Our messaging doesn't, doesn't work.
Really sell our core value props
or the reason why we exist.
All that stuff is what the marketer should
be thinking about and doing in those
first, I wouldn't even say it's month.
That's like 90 days.
Like I think people have the wrong
expectations of hiring a first marketer
and seeing them making an immediate
impact in the first couple of months when
they come in, the impact is going to be
figuring this stuff out, figuring out
what the proper foundation of the business
is, not not let's grow to thousands of
users in the first few months, because.
Most businesses have not figured
this stuff out before they haven't
haven't hired their first marketer.
Yeah, the reminding ourselves of this
story is making me think like man,
what a fine line between success and
failure like We, we, we had something
there, like something about this idea.
And back then there was no pain point
SEO, by the way, there was no like
bottom of funnel, what we've come to
be known for of just like do SEO, stop
wasting time on traffic, find the high
conversion of ones to do bottom funnel.
We didn't even know that we
weren't even focused on SEO.
We did non SEO stories, but
the idea, the core idea of.
Your content marketing is not
working because it's producing
bad content that you're not proud
of and it's not getting results.
Like there was something there and we
like thought we could position that as
a training type product, either a course
or in person and it just like, Wasn't
resonating the way you just described,
which is like, you don't need an AB
test to tell you it wasn't working.
We were just like, Oh
my God, we have nothing.
We have no customers, no
one's signing up for stuff.
This is not going to turn into a
business where it's just totally obvious.
But the core was there.
And I wonder if that's kind of what
is the frustration even with you
and the CEO you were talking about.
And I think you would disagree
because I know you're.
Opinions about that company, but it's like
I wonder if it's like, well, we have a
million dollars of revenue So like there's
something like people are paying for
something but to your point that business
failed so they Basically got aqua hired.
I think in folded the business after I
think five years of running it because
They were so stubborn about this.
They weren't willing to accept that
there were flaws in The product and the
delivery of it To where they just kept
beating their head against the wall
and burning money, trying to sell a
product that people didn't really want.
And there wasn't a ton of demand for,
and that wasn't sold the right way
and wasn't messaged the right way.
It's a great business because we've
talked to someone recently who's
basically doing a different take
on the same idea and has had widely
successful growth, but that business
in the way it was run just didn't work.
And.
Again, if you're, if, if you don't
have that foundation there and you
don't have the product market fit
there, you can have tons of funding.
This business was funded very well
funded, and they were just burning money
on trying to spend money in marketing
channels on sales people before they
had the solid foundation figured out.
And that's like the core lesson.
I think probably what's happening
there, and we will move on to marketing
channels after this, but like.
I think what happens is you, companies
and products kind of like this, you get
the, some semblance of the pain point
is there, and that's that signal, that
positive signal where you're like, but
I have something, I have something.
And it's like, for us, it was like,
people are frustrated with their
content marketing, with how agencies
are doing it, with how they themselves
in house employees have done it.
Like we got something right.
Fundamentally there.
But the details mattered.
Right.
And it was a ton of details.
Like, I don't want to attend a workshop.
I don't want to even buy a course,
but like I, as in the CMO types, don't
want to buy a course, but turns out
actually the practitioners did, but
they wanted to do it not to help the
company, but they wanted to do it
to help themselves and their career.
Like, it was like all these nuances.
And then when we got into it, people,
we did get clients just like writing
stories, top of the funnel, not measuring.
And then some clients were
like, well, wait a minute.
Can we like measure, are we
getting any leads from it?
And we were like, how do we do that?
And then we turned to SEO and pain point.
Like it was like all these iterations.
And I guess what you're saying is like,
if you can't iterate, like it's going
to be hard for you to find your way and
navigate your way to the thing that works.
Okay.
So this is convincing for like step one.
Now let's assume the positive you do this
for a month, 90 days, what have you, and
you start to find some signs of life.
You're like, Oh, this landing page or
whatever is converting and this and that.
Then if I'm the founder, I a hundred
percent would start to get antsy and be
like, Benji, you've been futzing around
with this positioning for three months.
Like I told, you know, whoever, whoever,
well, I don't, I don't want to present.
I'm a VC backed founder.
Cause I don't like that, but like I,
myself, like we're like waiting for you.
We're like, we're like, so can you invest?
It doesn't matter if you
have VC funding or not.
I think my take having been on
both sides of the business, the
VC funding helps accelerate.
What's already working.
And I think the mistake people make
in VC funded businesses is they try
to figure, they try to spend money to
solve problems to force it to work.
Yes.
Before solving the problem, they think
money is going to solve the problem.
So, Oh, we need to
figure out how to market.
I'm just going to throw
money at headcount.
Oh, we need to figure out how to do sales.
I'm going to throw money at headcount.
In my experience, the proper
way is to have a super lean
team in the very beginning.
One salesperson, one marketer and get
those people to figure out how to sell
and market on their own and do one thing
very well, whether it's like outbound
calling, outbound emails, prospecting
into accounts, whatever way, same thing
on the marketing side, figure out one
channel, whether it's ads, whether
it's content, whether it can also be
cold email on the marketing side too.
Figure out something that works
and then use money to scale it.
But the money doesn't
really solve the problem.
And I think that's the advantage
that bootstrappers have is
you don't have a ton of money.
And so you're forced to solve
the hard problems first.
Otherwise you just run out of money.
And then the VC funded companies where
they fail typically is they don't have
that same mindset about being frugal
with money in the very beginning.
Because you're trying to figure out
these hard to solve problems and
they're just throwing money at problems
and they end up burning too much cash
before actually solving the problems.
Yeah, you're right.
If we had somehow had money, which was
kind of nonsensical cause it wasn't
a VC funded business, but we could
have forced fed customers into the
course by just like buying enough ads,
paying for it and you do it, you do
it at a loss for long enough and then
you're like slowly trying to figure
out how to, how to make it profitable.
That's like, The VC model
is just like spend money.
It's okay if it's really expensive at
first, eventually cost will come down.
And I think the bootstrapper
mindset is flipped.
It's like, let's solve the problems
first and then use our organic
growth to keep funding growth.
So just slightly different mindsets.
Okay.
So say you figured out the positioning,
um, One other question is like I'd be like
Benji what channels are you gonna invest
in now like let's scale this thing Well,
I think before that I want to get back to
like what is the profile of this marketer?
Because I I think people make I think
founders make the mistake that don't have
a marketing background That I need to
hire some specialist in the very beginning
I need to hire a content marketer.
I need to hire a paid ads person.
I need to hire any of these things.
To me, the right person is a
marketing generalist, actually, who
has a strength in one or two areas.
So they have a broad enough
foundation that they've, they've
held different roles in marketing.
And they have some of this experience of
getting feedback from the customers doing
messaging and positioning stuff, because
I don't think there is a right Channel
mix at the very beginning of a business.
I think to me the marketer Plays
to their strengths and figures out
one channel And that one channel
should be able to grow the business
for a fairly long time before.
Hold on.
Hold on you're saying If you get
the positioning right playing
to the strengths, you mean?
Different marketers in that same role
could pick their own pet channel.
For sure.
Would pick different ways.
Yeah.
Because for example, with grow
and convert, I had had the
experience doing content marketing
before and growing blogs.
And so that's my natural skillset.
I know how to do that.
So coming into this, I'm going to lean on
writing content and growing an audience as
the main way that we're going to grow this
business versus someone else could have.
Someone else could just be
good at LinkedIn posting.
Like we, we know plenty of people that
have successful agencies or consultancy
practices who do nothing else other
than LinkedIn posts that they're,
they're one marketing channel or one
skillset that they're really good at.
There's nothing wrong with that.
And to me, that's not my strength.
I don't enjoy it.
So I'm not going to play in that
space, leave that channel for
the people that excel in that.
I'm going to focus on what I'm good at.
And so, and I think another marketer
could come in and say, I want to
grow this business with paid ads.
I know how to do this very well.
So I don't think there is a right
channel to grow any business.
I think it goes back to the
strengths of either the founder
or that marketer in the role.
So once they figure this out, then they
basically need to, to pick one or two
channels that they're going to test.
Now this messaging to get it
in front of the right people.
So it can be written content.
It can be ads.
It can be LinkedIn posting,
but basically now you need to
put this message out there.
Here's the value that this business adds.
Here's the differentiation in the market.
We talked about the disruption story.
Basically that positioning
that's in the disruption story.
You need to get that out there in ads
and content and whatever it is, and
see if people are interested enough
to come to your website and purchase.
If not, You need to go back and
figure out why and you need to ask
those people why they're not buying.
If they're coming in and they're
having sales calls and not
purchasing, what is it about your
offer that they're not interested in?
Fix that.
Yeah.
So it's just this constant
process of testing, measuring.
If something doesn't work,
why isn't it working?
How can I improve something?
Testing it again until you find what works
and Oftentimes people ask like, what's,
what's the percentage, like, is there
like a percentage of like calls that I
should take that turn into customers?
Is it like trials that turn into paid?
It's like, I don't think
there is a right number.
I think you'll just get a
feeling when things start to
work and then explore that.
Like keep, keep pushing in that
channel until you find something that's
working really well and is repeatable.
Okay.
I'm going to keep going here because I
want to make it as tactical as possible.
So we've concluded spend the first
month getting the positioning
right or first one to three months.
Then, um, by the way, aside, the
founding team should be looking
for more of a marketing generalist.
Now, now can we talk about like,
how do you actually test this?
What are some concrete options?
Because I have opinions that
I can do as a strong man.
I think if I'm in that position.
Having co run Grow and Convert with
you for six, seven, whatever years,
and seen tons of clients, seen their
GA, known what channels they've done
besides ours in content marketing, I
would start with paid search first.
Even if ultimately it
doesn't work, here's why.
Because search in general is a channel
where you know the mindset and the
desires of what that person is wants
at that moment because they googled it.
And that's when you're showing up.
You're saying, I want to show my ad or
whatever when somebody googles this.
And the reason I was, I would start
with paid search if I had a budget.
Is it just speeds it up versus organic?
Sure.
Yeah.
I would love to, to rank, but like
that's going to take some time.
And so in order to test it, I would say
if you know this hypothetical company was
selling accounting, I would be like, if
we think we got the positioning right of
our QuickBooks alternative small business
accounting solution, then certainly we
should be able to get, Some keywords
around small business accounting around
QuickBooks alternatives, the stuff that
grow and convert ranks our clients for
from an organic standpoint and paid by the
way, we do paid search management is Like
that's bound to work and if it's not going
to work, it's not going to fail miserably.
Like it, you know, work for anyone
who does paid search, you know, that
like, does it work quote unquote
mean something numerical, which is
like, what is the return on ad spend?
Maybe the return on ad
spend is, you know, 1.
01.
So it's like basically break
even, but it shouldn't be like.
Zero.
Uh, maybe not.
There could be some spaces where
like the click rate is like, Per cost
per click is just so insanely high.
Cause there's a bunch of VC funded
companies that are just like blowing money
and don't care about profitability there.
Like we've heard about this a lot, but
nonetheless, like I would probably start
there slash maybe disruption story plus
Twitter, where, where would you start?
If I was like, okay, Benji, like, I
think that's, we're getting frustrated.
You spent 90 days on this.
Here's 10, 000 a month.
Like we need to see some leads.
Where are you going to use it again?
Again?
I don't, I don't like the budget thing
because, but that's, that's the reality.
Yeah.
No, I agree.
I just don't, I don't think you need
that much money in the very beginning
because I think that the tests that
you're running are, are many, many tests.
So yes, actually I'll
give concrete examples.
I was the head of marketing and.
ran marketing for this
company called think apps.
I was the fourth person.
This was my job to come in
and figure this stuff out.
This is exactly the process that we did.
Can you explain to everyone
what think apps did?
They're like a mobile development agency.
There is, yeah, mobile development.
They created apps for
people on iOS and Android.
So basically anyone that had an idea
who wanted to build an app, they would
do everything from taking your ideas,
wire framing it, figuring out the right
development design team, And basically
give like delivering you a finished
product that you could then go launch.
Um, so yeah, like I came
into this business, I talked
to the existing customers.
What were the prior ways that
you tried to build things?
What were the challenges that
you had with working with these
different development teams?
And you learned all these stories that
like horror stories of people working
with all these different software
developers and spending years on this
without a finished product and like
all these challenges of doing this.
So.
I took a lot of that messaging and
put it on the homepage to try to
absolve people of their fears and
talk about the approach that we took
different, uh, from the way that most
people are doing app development.
Then what you're saying is true.
So that was like the first couple
of months we redid our whole
homepage and our whole website.
And then that I have the
same inkling that you did.
I said, let's go test this.
And so again, I'm not an ads person.
But I've had enough experience to be
able to manage it from a high level.
So you did search first.
We did.
And so I hired a contractor who actually
was just someone I had previously
worked with, who I knew was good at ads.
And then I simultaneously
started on the content side.
And so the ads were meant to then prove
that the messaging and positioning
that we could advertise against,
like Apple iOS developer, uh, Android
developer, some of these like.
obscure keywords around developing
certain types of apps, get people to
our landing page, people would come in.
And then what I did there is I
would listen to the sales calls.
And so again, at that point in time,
there was the two founders, me as the
marketer, and then one salesperson.
And I thought it was important to
listen to all the sales calls of the
leads that I was generating to then
understand the mindset of this person.
What about our pitch was interesting?
What wasn't?
And then you're taking that feedback
and iterating on the landing
page, iterating on the website.
You're just learning about
what the customer wants.
You can hone in the
keywords you're targeting.
You can hone in topics on blog posts.
So we got enough, we had enough
basically information from these calls
and we are starting to close some
of these deals from the paid ads.
And then the founders were
like, this is too expensive.
Imagine going after like app developer,
like you're paying like 50 something.
But you said they're closing deals.
So you were paying so much in ads.
For those leads that the closed
deals weren't covering it with
enough margin for it to make sense.
Not really because they're a
small, they're starting with like
test projects and then they were
expanding into larger projects.
And so just, I mean, you can imagine
the clicks for those types of keywords.
There was like 50 a click or something.
Oh wow.
And so it just like, was it was so
expensive and do you remember roughly
what kind of monthly spend there was?
I think we were doing like 5, 000
a month or something like that.
It started fairly small.
But yeah, the founders were like, we just
don't want to pay this much for a lead.
What about doing content?
And so that was, that was what I
focused on next was like, let's take
some of these same pain points and
categories and write blog posts on it
and built out a program doing that.
And yeah, that ended up being very
successful and the company ended up
growing fairly quickly in that first year.
From the combination of figuring
out the right positioning and having
one channel that kind of took off
which ended up being content I mean,
that's how the business fully grew.
It was just they were
getting Leads from content.
What other channels should someone
listening be thinking of because I I
went to pay, my mind went to paid search.
You are like there.
We, we did events.
So we would go to like local
development meet or we'd go to like
local product meetups that at this
point we were in San Francisco.
So there are tons of founders who are
looking to build stuff, trying to figure
out the best way to be build stuff.
So the founders would go speak at talks.
I would go to events
and network with people.
Um, what else did we do?
We tried partnerships with different
types of companies who would have founders
that we would try to get in front of.
Um, yeah, like newsletters, sponsorships.
There's, I mean, there's tons of
different channels, but again, I don't
think the channel is that important.
I think the channel is your means to
get in front of people and you just need
to figure out one channel that works.
And to me, I think the mistake that
a lot of companies make is they
find that one channel and instead
of just continuing to focus on that
channel and grow that channel as
much as they can until it, They're
kind of capped out on growth there.
They then try to go focus on
another channel and another
channel and another channel.
It says marketing FOMO itch where you're
like, well, we're not doing Pinterest.
So I think most businesses, like even
our own business, we've largely grown
off of one channel, our entire business.
We've been around for seven years
now and we haven't really invested
in anything else other than
content and now ads to promote it.
That's pretty much it.
Like we haven't gotten pitched cold email.
We've gotten pitched like creating an
outbound sales team and all this stuff.
Like it just doesn't make sense.
Another thing on this topic that I
think a lot of businesses get wrong.
They try to switch from outbound
to inbound or inbound to outbound.
I think largely when a company
begins, they have some DNA.
They're either like an outbound
org where they built their
whole sales process around.
prospecting into accounts, getting
leads that are somewhat cold,
warming them up through the sales
approach and then closing them.
And then there's full businesses
who have some inbound program that
the leads are very qualified where
they don't need SDRs prospecting and
qualifying leads on the front end.
They can just have a sales
team that closes those deals
cause they're very warm.
And I feel a lot of businesses either
start with inbound And instead of
just building out that inbound program
that then they were like, Oh, inbounds
working now we need to go do outbound.
Well, the problem with doing that is it's
a completely different sales approach.
Your, your sales call to a lead that's
warm, who already understands what
you're doing is very different than
prospecting and selling to a lead that
is much colder or like way, Earlier
in their buyer journey and the sales
process and the messaging is different.
And so I think as a business You
need to really reflect on Which
approach you want to take to selling?
And build your team and
your strengths around that.
And, and eventually at some point
you can build that other muscle.
So if you become an inbound organization
and you've grown very successfully like
that, at some point in your business,
when you've started to exhaust how
many leads you can get from that, then
go build that outbound program and
then figure that out from scratch.
You need to, again, go
hire one or two people.
They need to figure out how to sell and
then again, you need to like test and
iterate until you have a Process that
works there and then you build out your
team again I think the biggest mistake
I see is people hiring way too many
people too quickly before figuring out
the hard problems Okay, let me summarize
what we have so far So first marketing
hire at a company that has some sales so
there's some signs of good life number
one You From the company's perspective,
hire a marketing generalist, don't just
hire a paid search person or something
or paid ad expert or a content expert
or a writer or whatever, and assume
like this is a specialist, just grow
that one channel for all the reasons
you mentioned, because step two is
first get the positioning right, right?
If you're the first marketing hire,
the number one thing is do not assume
that the way the product is positioned.
Now, here's the subtlety.
We are talking about like the
website and the homepage in that
article, our positioning article,
we distinguish and delineate
between positioning and messaging.
And it's a subtle one, but
it's kind of important.
Positioning is just the idea, the
concept of what you are positioned
against the messaging, how you want
people to, to think about what you do.
It's like, what is that?
It's like for us, it's, we are a
content marketing service or agency
that use, that actually drives
leads, not just hollow traffic.
That's the position.
It's what, what you want people to
believe about you versus messaging
is what, what you say to get
people to believe that, right?
Messaging is how that idea or concept.
Manifests itself in a particular instance,
aka the messaging on your homepage,
the messaging on a particular ad, the
messaging inside a blog post, right?
So get the positioning right,
tested via messaging, how to test.
Number one, if you already have some
traffic coming to the site, change
it and see whether demo signups,
whatever increase sales form fills.
Number two, you can find some level
of money to send some traffic there.
Buy some Google ads, do whatever, right?
We're talking about a
couple thousand bucks.
I don't know, maybe even a
couple hundred, whatever.
Um, then assuming you get that right, if
not, you have to keep iterating and you
may have bigger problems on your hands.
Right.
Maybe there's some fundamental
product market fit issues
that you have to report back.
Those conversations are
not going to be pleasant.
Just like Benji had the founder
be like, no, you're wrong.
Like just, you know, look, the reality
is if a company doesn't have their
positioning dialed in and someone who
was just hired tells them that that's not
supposed to be a pleasant conversation.
Like there is going to be
resistance to it because that's
just unpleasant news to hear.
Nobody wants to hear that anyway.
Then assume you get that right.
Step three, right?
Step one was hire the right person.
The step two was tests and
get the positioning right.
Step three is now test
with that new positioning.
Start to sort of like one
test, different channels.
Yeah.
One channel at a time or it can be
small tests on multiple channels.
It doesn't really matter, but the goal
is just to find something that works.
So find something that's bringing in leads
where the leads are, Interested enough
in the business to take the next step.
So that's step.
What are we three one hire the right
person to Get the positioning right
three test different channels assuming
that's right Then finally on step
four You're saying then start putting
some effort resources money into that
channel and start to scale that then
then the budget becomes important
because I think the reason why I didn't
want to get to the budgetary stuff
before is because I you can spend way
too much money on the wrong things.
And I don't think often it takes a
lot of money to test these things out.
I think in, in that first 90 day
period or even six month period while
you're figuring out the messaging and
testing these channels, there's not a
lot of money that you need to spend.
It's, it's literally strict strategy work.
It's talking to customers, it's
time, it's figuring out all
these nuances of the business.
It's and then to test things.
Yeah, you need to spend some money.
But again, the budget should
be very minimal there.
You should be operating super lean,
hiring contractors to help you.
You don't need to hire full time people at
this point just to figure out what works
after you figure out something that works.
So again, when we had Google ads
coming in or, uh, when we had Google
ads and we had leads coming in, or
when I started to produce content that
was driving leads, then it's like,
okay, how can we go hire more writers?
Or how can we hire a paid search
contractor to keep doing this?
And then what's the proper budget
that we should put behind this?
And I don't think there is a
right answer on proper budget.
It's like.
I think it's an incremental growth thing.
Like if someone was operating off 5,
000, like double it and see if you
can kind of maintain that same growth
or profitability on that channel.
And that's how people
should think about it.
It should be like the slow growth thing
that you're, you're constantly iterating,
you're figuring it out and then you're
putting a little bit of fuel behind the
fire and seeing if you can keep things
constant while you're, you're putting
more resources or money behind it.
And then.
you're, then you're just trying to scale
that one channel as much as possible.
So yeah, I think that that is
the approach that I would take.
I don't think it needs to be
much more complicated than that.
I don't think at that point after
figuring it out, you need to
then go test multiple channels.
I think then the goal is double
down on what's working and
scale it as much as possible.
And it's only until you tap
out on that, that channel.
Like you've done everything that you
possibly can and leads are slowing or
you have some growth mandate where you
know that channel is not going to be
able to scale beyond a certain limit that
you then go back to that same approach.
Step three, testing another channel to
find something that works and then running
through that same process of figuring out.
What that channel is, the right
approach, and then staffing it properly
or putting the right budget behind it.
And it should just be this
one channel at a time, and you
should keep adding like that.
And then same thing
with hiring more people.
I don't think that you should hire
a bigger team until you've figured
out how to do that thing by yourself.
And if you don't know how to
do it, go hire a contractor
to figure it out with you.
Before hiring someone full time.
Like I think this idea of you need to
go find someone who has a background in
email marketing to hire a full time, come
on board, like just cause that person
has experience in the same industry
or came from a different company.
It doesn't mean that they're going
to be able to make the channel
be successful at your business.
And when you're figuring it out from
scratch, I think from a time and
resource perspective, it's better off.
Running super lean until you
solve this problem and then and
then putting resources behind it.
Yeah, that was the next thing I was gonna
ask about so I'm glad you went there is we
see that in our clients all the time where
they're like And and we get the benefit of
that So like we have clients being like we
you know, we tried this thing or outbound
is tapping out It's not really marketing,
it's sales, but whatever, right?
It's like, it's, it's our channel.
It's a customer acquisition channel.
You know, outbound is tapping out.
We need to do content.
Like the founder used to write
these posts and it kind of worked.
So we have evidence from a few years ago
at work, but I'm not a content person.
I'm not an SEO person.
I don't know the first thing about it.
So I, you know, I heard about
you guys or a friend mentioned.
And so like we get the benefit of that.
But I was going to ask that, like,
say they are on step three or four or
something where they're like testing
channels or whatever, and they're
like, look, I'm not paid search makes
sense for us, like just from kind
of a logic perspective, maybe it's
something people search for a lot.
I'm not, I don't know.
At first thing about Google
ads, I've never set it up.
Should I hire a Google ads agency?
Like our clients say that all the time.
They're like, hang on, I'm hiring this
content person to manage you guys.
Plus do some other content, which
I always think is kind of funny.
Like, why are you even
spending money on that?
But like, they do that all the time.
What you're, and you're
saying, hire a contractor.
If you, if you want to test, if you
think that the what dynamics of your
business make Google ads, like a great
first channel to test, that's great.
You don't know.
Take our course first and try some
things on your own before hiring us.
I think because like, well, I
mean, or you could put your faith
in us in the very beginning.
It's just people have different levels
of comfort with hiring and like spend.
But I think like test it out for
yourself and see if it can work.
And then you need manpower behind
it or you need someone that already
knows a better approach than you.
And then, um, Go higher.
But I think it's tough.
Like imagine a founder who has
no content background, who has
just, who's never tried it before.
I think they're just going to be way
more skeptical in the beginning if they
haven't tried it themselves, hiring us
from the very beginning because they
don't have the confidence that we have,
that our approach is going to work.
I think if they have tried it and
they've created a few pieces of content,
they're like, Oh, there's something
here with this channel, but I don't have
the I don't know how to hire for this.
Well, like I don't know
how to hire a writer.
I don't know how to hire a content
marketer I don't know how to build
a whole team around it And, and
then you start to go look, look for
agencies that can solve that problem.
I think that's the better approach.
Here's my perspective.
I think in short, if you just straight
up try to hire either an expensive
agency, and I know this is not a
self serving comment, this is like
anti selling growing convert, but
that's not what this show is about.
It's not about us selling ourselves.
It's like, um, we're trying to be honest.
The chances of mishiring
and wasting a ton of money.
On an expensive agency or a full time
employee, which sometimes can be worse
because then it's like, it is worse.
I will, I will say that, like,
I feel bad because I think.
The mistake that a lot of companies make
is that they hire a full time person
without having figured out how to solve
a problem first, thinking that this
person's going to come in and solve it.
You can be six months, a year,
two years into this relationship
and things are not working.
But because they're a full time employee.
As the founder or the manager, you feel
bad for making the wrong decision and
you let that decision fester for too
long and it can ruin your business.
And I think the advantage of hiring a
contractor, an agency versus a full time
person in the very beginning is I feel
like from a founder's perspective, it's
much easier to cut that person or agency
When you've made a bad decision than it
is to hire a full time person and for
whatever it is, culturally, we've been
taught to hire the full time person
first and think about filling a role or
solving a problem with a full time person.
And I've just seen seeing it
being way more detrimental to a
business taking that approach.
This is actually really important
from an execution standpoint.
And I believe in this strongly.
I'm a hundred percent with Benji on this.
Like when you are testing
channels and ideas.
Companies spend way too much money
testing them in some like elaborate way.
Like you said, full time hire, director
level, executive level person, and then
they're gonna need, they have a massive
salary because they're gonna need a budget
to hire the team, plus Pet agency that
they love for the reviews three times.
They got to bring it in and it's
just gonna cost you a ton and you're
gonna be a year into it and be like,
where, where are the customers?
The chances are high.
I would opt 100 percent for gorilla
marketing and there's a few reasons.
Number one is straight cost savings.
Like, for example, we've talked about
and we'll talk about more like, well,
let's just use our Google ads example.
Say like, you know, you're in
our scenario and like Google just
search, just like make sense.
It's like something people search
for a lot and you want to do it.
And I'm in that situation.
I have never once set up
a Google ads campaign.
I'm on the calls with you and amethyst.
I see the back end of it.
Like I know the strategy of it.
I don't know the mechanics of it.
Like I'm too old to figure that out now.
I'm not going to learn that, you know?
But like, I think if I had to
do that on my own, I'm going
to like an upwork type place.
And finding someone you can get
someone that is like smart and
then here's a couple like details
because you and I have tried this.
We found like HubSpot
experts and other things.
We've hired a bunch of
people off of there.
Um, I would also be ready and
prepared to hire multiple people.
Because just like Google ads is like a
complicated topic and you hire one Google
ads expert, they do it one way and it
doesn't work and every, everybody would
be like, it's just, we tried Google ads.
It doesn't work.
You guys, we tried it.
It doesn't work.
It's just like people who
tell us that we tried content.
It doesn't work.
You're like, yeah, cause
you didn't do it properly.
And so then try the next person.
And the next person, like
two or three, that's enough.
If you try two or three completely
different Google ads people, and you
think you have a reasonable strategy,
you think your positioning is dialed
And you cannot get any campaigns to
give you a row as it's acceptable.
It probably is not going to work or like
there's some big problem, you know, and
you spent what couple thousand bucks
right on ad spend plus like those people.
And you've gotten a
few different opinions.
And you're not wondering like you
said, when you hire an employee,
clients tell us this on the back end.
You hire an employee.
You're not having that thought.
Is there something
wrong with the employee?
Maybe they're not smart enough.
Maybe their strategy was not right.
That's a nagging thought.
You don't have that.
You're like, well, I
talked to three of them.
They're completely different, right?
Upwork is great like that.
You're like, one is from England.
The other is from Nebraska and
the other one's in New York.
Like they don't even talk to each other.
How could all three of them
have concluded the same thing?
It's probably right.
And then you move on to the next thing.
And I think that kind of like,
I'm calling it guerrilla marketing
is probably like not right.
But just like.
Kind of very resourceful, you know, budget
strapped, like just like, and then, and
then that also teaches you because it
forces you to get into the nitty gritty.
Cause you're asking that
person like, hold on, hold on.
Why is this not working?
How did you set up this campaign?
And then you're comparing how person
a did it with person B did it.
And like, you now know enough
to where if it's working.
You can sniff out the BS agency.
You can sniff out is this employee that I
want to hire to scale this thing smart or
do they know what they're talking about?
Because you have a basis of knowledge
because you like got your hands
a little bit dirty with this.
The contractors to get it done.
Um, yeah, that's a good step four
or five or whatever step we're on.
We can pay attention afterwards.
Yeah, I like this.
This would be a good plan.
Let's summarize hire the right person,
a generalist at first, that person needs
to spend the first one to three months
or whatever amount of time getting the
positioning right by testing different
channels, by talking to a bunch of
customers, figuring out what their
pain points are, figuring out what,
um, they're using the product to solve
and what the biggest benefits Get that
messaging right on whatever pages.
Then start to micro test little
channels and start to add.
And you said like double the budget,
double the budget, increase the budget
and see like, can I get this to hold?
Can I get the conversion rates to
hold is like leads actually scaling.
Look for big swings.
Do not waste your time.
AB testing right now.
10%, 20 percent lift.
None of that nonsense, right?
It's like, this is absolutely working.
Then like, if you need to execute
those channels higher, like.
Little expert contractor consultant
type experts where you can, where
you're not like committing heavily.
And only when you have all of that
dialed in positioning is right.
Like you have some evidence from
a channel that it's working.
You've scaled it a little bit
yourself, then double down
on it through whatever means.
I think you summed it up perfectly.
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