Neurodiversity in law: Hattie Jordan on life as a lawyer with ADHD

Milly Brown sits down with Osborne Clarke construction associate Hattie Jordan to explore her journey into law, from real estate paralegal to construction lawyer, and her recent ADHD diagnosis. Hattie shares how understanding her neurodiversity transformed her confidence and why awareness and flexibility are crucial for supporting neurodiverse colleagues. She also discusses social mobility, first-generation university experiences and what “being yourself” really looks like when applying for training contracts and building a legal career on your own terms. 

 

What is Law Beyond Limits with Osborne Clarke?

Hosted by Osborne Clarke trainees and solicitor apprentices, Law Beyond Limits shares candid conversations with OC lawyers about their routes into the legal profession. Guests reflect on career highlights and hiccups, the realities of progression, and lessons learned. At its heart is social mobility: what it means, why it matters, and how we can support people from diverse backgrounds by removing barriers.

Milly Brown: 00:00

Welcome back to Law Beyond Limits. Today we're joined with Hattie Jordan Construction Associate at OC. We talk about her recent ADHD diagnosis, her changes to day to day work life and how important it is to embrace diversity in the workplace. Hi everyone, we are joined with Hattie Jordan from construction. She's an associate in the team.

Milly Brown: 00:19

Nice to be here. Nice to have you. I think it makes sense to start with the beginning. You started out as a real estate paralegal. Yeah.

Milly Brown: 00:27

And you've now you're now a construction lawyer. So you could tell us a little bit about that journey and your kind of pivot as well.

Hattie Jordan: 00:32

Yeah, so I suppose, so I did the GDL, the conversion course back in, would have been 2012, 2013, and kind of from there I was just keen to experience, keen to kind of understand what it's like to work in a law firm and kind of I feel because I did a non non degree, I felt like it made sense for me to understand a bit more before I kind of committed to training with a specific firm or, you know, a specific type of environment. So I did property disputes. I did conveyancing for, I think, five years. And during that time, ended up getting my training contract in 2016 to start 2018. So it was a it was a longer road than perhaps is traditional.

Hattie Jordan: 01:18

But for me, was really important to have that grounding before I kind of started my, you know, grown

Milly Brown: 01:25

up job. Yeah, grown up. Such a breadth of experience to come into. Yeah, I wish I had that. So I don't think it's a bad journey at all.

Milly Brown: 01:32

So then you were real estate paralegal. Yeah. And you wanted to qualify into real estate. Always thought I was going to be a real estate lawyer. And that was probably from the grounding of the paralegal, you know, work and kind

Hattie Jordan: 01:44

of was very familiar with it. The unfortunate part was that I had to qualify during Covid, so we were during some kind of lockdown I think it was, was September 2020. It was quite an uncertain time. Mhmm. And just the job market was a bit uncertain, and I hadn't done I'd really only I kind of focused all of my training around real estate in some one way or another.

Hattie Jordan: 02:06

But the job that was available was in construction, and I hadn't done any construction, but I thought it was close enough. But I'm very, very glad that I did, because actually it worked out to be the best decision I've meant. Didn't kind of want to go back into real estate when kind of the job market picked up. It was kind of a world looked after me moment. So, yeah, it just it all worked out in the end.

Hattie Jordan: 02:35

So I'm very glad to have ended up where I am.

Milly Brown: 02:38

Okay, so let's take it even back one more step. How did you come across the legal industry?

Hattie Jordan: 02:43

Yeah, I think I mean I'm part of the first generation of my family to have gone to university or kind of done any kind of qualification beyond GCSE really. So I did an AS level, I don't know if they still exist, but I did do an AS level in law, and I was carried it on to the second year of A levels, but kind of ended up dropping it, as most of did did three A levels. But on the kind of, you know, with it in the back of my mind that I could do a conversion course if I wanted to down the line. And so that's kind of what happened. I was halfway through my degree and kind of I thought well I don't think I want to continue this, think I want to continue with a vocation.

Hattie Jordan: 03:26

And that's when I started kind of looking at applying for the conversion courses.

Milly Brown: 03:30

And so with all of that experience then, you you had quite a lot to do in law and you're now qualified, been qualified for some time as well. Do you feel like you belong in the profession? Yeah, know you said that question, isn't always the best question, but at what moment do you feel like you belong a bit more at least in the in the legal profession?

Hattie Jordan: 03:51

I suppose, yeah, it was a I suppose during your training, you're kind of trying to find your feet and you're trying to just kind of get to grips with, you know, what's expected of you, what you need to do, you know, and different seats, you're doing different areas of thought, it's all very different. But when I qualified, because I didn't have any construction experience, I was probably on a bit of a back foot because I, you know, I didn't even have a month's experience in it, know, I'd never had dealt with the the issues that I was dealing with on day one really. So it probably took me a little bit longer than other people. Probably, and this is a lovely segue, I'd say I started to feel more like I had a long draw, at least I had a place in law once I had my ADHD diagnosis.

Milly Brown: 04:37

Perfect, thank you for the segue. So you've had a recent ADHD diagnosis? Yes,

Hattie Jordan: 04:41

well yeah, I mean, now it's probably June 2024. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Milly Brown: 04:47

So recently, grounds gives of life. Yeah. But not so recent. So actually, that's really good that it's been a while because we can hear how it's affected you and how kind of your work life, I guess, has changed since Yeah, knowing

Hattie Jordan: 04:59

I think so the I mean, I came, I ended up getting an ADHD diagnosis, I say by accident, but it was I'd gone to speak to a therapist about kind of imposter syndrome and feeling, you know, finding it difficult to manage my own confidence and that and it all kind of led to a discussion around different traits, different, well she's she's had hallmarks of ADHD, and she suggested that it might be, you know, worth getting an assessment. And I did and yeah, and from the point of getting, I got a diagnosis of combined type ADHD, so that's both hyperactive and inattentive. And from that point, it was basically then a discovery journey of, okay, what does this mean? How does this explain what I've been pregaling? You know, does it, was this me or was it the ADHD?

Hattie Jordan: 05:52

And you start to kind of actually make sense of what's happened for the past thirty plus years. And that allowed me then to accept things more and not be so, like, frustrated.

Milly Brown: 06:04

Yeah. Because that's like another layer to what, I guess, most people feel if they're from like a socially diverse background. You've then got the neurodiverse background. So it would have been very hard, I guess, to to feel like part of the rest of the cohort. How did how did you manage that before the diagnosis?

Hattie Jordan: 06:22

I don't really know. I think before you know that you have a diagnosis of ADHD or or, you know, any other kind of neurodiversity, Mhmm. I think you just think that's how everyone's brains works. And you have no idea that actually there's a massive, you know, array of people with a massive kind of there's a massive array of people with different ways of working and different kind of working styles. But it kind of thing fundamentally comes down to how much does that affect you every day.

Hattie Jordan: 06:55

That's such

Milly Brown: 06:55

a challenge to to not know why. And I think so many people now, we're starting to realise the importance of knowing why, because until you have the answer, it's really hard to help yourself, it's really hard to understand your own needs. And then it's really hard for people around you to understand those needs as well and start to put those things in place. So being OC, the great firm it is, can you tell us a little bit about how your work life has been adapted and any kind of support that the firm has given you post diagnosis? Yeah, it was all very positive experience.

Milly Brown: 07:32

Pre diagnosis adjustments were put

Hattie Jordan: 07:34

in place already. So that was, know, spoke to HR, I spoke about things that might be helpful for me in terms of managing workload, in terms of prior organisation. And then after my diagnosis, it kind of, you know, kind of actually drilled down a bit more. And I've got an allocated desk in the office now. So I kind of chosen where I sit, which is at the best for me in terms of, you know, distraction, managing focus, but also not feeling like I'm on the outskirts.

Hattie Jordan: 08:02

I'm remembering to do it. Exactly. Yeah. Because it's it's pre booked. Yes.

Hattie Jordan: 08:06

So that is a key a key point. And I'm also going to start some with the Neurodiversity Coaching Programme. That will be kind of looking at things that I think would help me in terms of struggles with work, so whether that's prioritisation, whether that's, you know, managing stress and working with a kind of an independent coach to kind of work through that and actually kind of improve my my work life kind of experience.

Milly Brown: 08:38

Yes. That's amazing. That's really good that that's available. And I think it's so needed because we should all be on a level playing field. And if you've had struggles, or if any other people had struggles in the past, the whole point of speaking up is that being brave enough to speak up is that then people can help you.

Milly Brown: 08:58

And you can move forward and start to, yeah, succeed as as easily as everyone Because it doesn't stop you from succeeding, but it can make different things harder. I definitely feel that. And what do you think, on a slightly more negative note, what do you think still needs to change in the industry to help support neurodiverse colleagues?

Hattie Jordan: 09:14

Yeah, I think I think there's a lot of, you know, bites, you know, I've always, from the moment I got the diagnosis very open, I think it's probably a symptom of a lot of people. They literally is, you know, love to overshare, love to tell people anything that they want to know, you know. And so I've always been quite open and quite comfortable with the diagnosis, but I do think there is a bit of a, I don't know whether it is a personal thing, know, you don't know how people are going to receive it, you know, I think because I think really what could be done is better awareness of actually what that looks like. Because, you know, I grew up in the nineties and I had no idea what it actually looked like. No.

Hattie Jordan: 09:55

You know, I don't remember people in my school, if they did have a diagnosis, didn't know. People didn't talk about it really. I just think generally better awareness of of how a diagnosis of ADHD or or or whatever diagnosis, you know, somebody might have, how that looks in a workplace. Because it probably looks different to what people expect. And And people probably need different support.

Hattie Jordan: 10:21

You know, it can be as simple as putting down written instructions instead of, you know, calling up because that's easier. Yeah. You know, it's it's all about kind of just working with people where they are and not expecting them to all work in the same way.

Milly Brown: 10:35

Yeah, we've talked a lot about kind of the diagnosis, but you also really helpfully mentioned that even before that adjustments were put in place. And I think that's also important to consider that sometimes people don't need like necessarily a diagnosis, you can you can just feel these things and ask the question. Have you found that when you speak up, that people are supportive and ready to listen?

Hattie Jordan: 10:56

Yeah, I think so. I think kind of a lot of the time people just want to know what they can do. So and obviously that's quite difficult when you first have a diagnosis to know what people can do because you don't know yet. But obviously, the more you go through the, you know, the journey of having a diagnosis and you start to understand what it is that you need. And, you know, everybody's been very receptive.

Hattie Jordan: 11:19

And, you know, I've said, oh, can can you put that in the email head? Or, oh, can we actually, you know, talk about that before I start? Or whatever it is, that people have been very receptive about it. So, yeah, that's been a positive experience.

Milly Brown: 11:32

So I know recently you have taken on a training supervisor role, which is really exciting. How does your background and everything we've talked about influence your supervision style?

Hattie Jordan: 11:42

Yeah, I think supervision for me kind of, I mean, I was very fortunate during my training contract that I had, you know, particularly my first supervisor with Barrett was excellent. And, you know, made me feel very supported and made me feel like, you know, whatever contribution I had, he listened and and, you know, we had regular check ins. And that was very, you know, that was a kind of quite a a formative moment, I suppose, in my training. But I saw what good supervisor looked like. For me, in terms of kind of how I would manage it, it's again looking and working with the person that's in front of me and not thinking, well, you know, you're part of a cohort, you know, you need to hit this, this and this criteria.

Hattie Jordan: 12:21

Yeah. That really is, you know, immaterial if you're not working with the actual person. I'll say, you know, how do you work best? Do you like things written down? Do you want to speak speak it through?

Hattie Jordan: 12:31

And, you know, kind of taking time regularly to check-in, because I think it's quite it can be feel quite difficult to speak up if you've got an issue or, you know, stressed about something. So I just try

Milly Brown: 12:45

and give an open forum for that. I like what you said about dealing with the person in front of you. That's the whole point of social diversity and neurodiversity is that everyone's different. And the more we can convey that message means that when a supervisor or manager, whoever it is, takes on a new trainee or associate whoever, they are ready to have that conversation fresh again and they're not going to use the same tools or mechanisms that they would have used with previous team members because it doesn't work and it can feel quite hard to get out of those things if you're feeling like that's just the way they do it. So it's really important to have that conversation kind of from the top down.

Milly Brown: 13:24

Do you think it's so important to have diversity in the legal sector, both kind of you've talked about social mobility and being first year founded to go to university, but also your experiences with neurodiversity. What benefits do you think it brings to the legal sector?

Hattie Jordan: 13:37

Yeah, I think, you know, we can all, you know, when you're first looking at, we look like, law firms really are looking for training contracts, and you just kind of start to think that they all merge together, and they all look the same. They all it feels like they all do the same work, you know, because you just don't have the experience. But actually, when you're in it, you realise, oh, wait a minute, there's different clients that do different type of work. And, you know, at the end of the day, those clients have people that are, you know, if you're dealing with companies, people that all work differently, probably neurodiverse people within that. And so it takes a group of different people to kind of prop to provide a full service, I think, to clients and, you know, on various matters in different different industries.

Hattie Jordan: 14:18

And ultimately, know, like, if if we're looking kind of more more personal things over work things, I just think it's better for everyone to be surrounded by a mix of people with different experiences, different you know, life, I suppose, again, experiences, different points of view. Yeah. Because that's how you get the best that's how you get the best experience in the workplace, but also the best culture.

Milly Brown: 14:42

I think you're a great role model for everyone really applying to the legal sector. And so I think it'd be really helpful if you could give some advice to people trying to enter the sector today and maybe even Osborne Clarke.

Hattie Jordan: 14:55

So I think when you're applying for a training contract, whether it's Osborne Clarke or somewhere else, I think the most important thing is to be yourself. You know, whether other people apply to 20 basis or not doesn't matter. You've only got to get one offer, you know. So, you know, do it your way. If you need to spend a bit more time, fine.

Hattie Jordan: 15:13

And just make sure that the people that are reading the applications or, you know, assessing you or interviewing see you. And because that's that's who they want. They don't just want, you know, another candidate that's got, you know, you know, whatever it is on paper, they want to know you. So I think that's for me, that is the most important thing. Because when I started doing that, which is where I ended up training, was when I got my offer.

Hattie Jordan: 15:37

Yeah, 100%.

Milly Brown: 15:38

You can't fake it when you get that. No. So there's no point faking

Hattie Jordan: 15:41

Yeah, know, you can you can roll out the same application for 10 different places, but

Milly Brown: 15:45

at the end of the day it doesn't work because, you know, it's got to be you and it's got to fit with the firm that you that you're applying to. Yeah, exactly. It's as much for you as it is for firms like you. If you showcase yourself all the quirks and otherwise on paper and someone chooses you, then your experience down the line is going to be so much better. And I think that's a really important message kind of for all these podcasts is that we all need to make an effort, senior people as well to to be ourselves, because it's then there's going to be role models for other people.

Milly Brown: 16:20

However, if you see someone, you know, I'm sure people off the back of this podcast today, maybe struggling with ADHD or other diagnosis will say, oh, well, there's a lawyer who's doing it. And there's someone to look at in the industry and representation is everything really. So I think we'll finish with some quick finer questions, I know neither of us are very good at quick finer. What does social mobility and inclusion mean to you?

Hattie Jordan: 16:44

Giving everyone a voice at the table. Do you think the biggest misconception about legal careers? That it has to look like something from Suits or the good wife. Because actually, you can just have a regular career, have a work life balance and and and have a legal group.

Milly Brown: 17:01

Yeah. Together. Yeah. Exactly. You can be a normal person and still do a really, really cool job.

Milly Brown: 17:07

And finally, one thing you wish every aspiring lawyer do.

Hattie Jordan: 17:13

Be yourself. That's enough.

Milly Brown: 17:15

I think that's a perfect note to end on. So thank you so much for coming on the podcast today and being so brave and open about your experiences. It helped me a lot. I know it's gonna help so many viewers watching.

Hattie Jordan: 17:24

Thank you for having me.