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What’s the story you can’t stop telling? Fran and Bethany are here to help you write, sell, and launch it.
Literary agent Bethany Saltman and bookstore owner Fran Hauser—also both critically acclaimed authors—host Bookbound, the podcast for non-fiction writers who want to learn how to transform their ideas, expertise, and obsessions into successful books and publishing deals. Fran and Bethany interview accomplished authors who share the strategies and surprises behind their bookbound journeys. These how-I-did-it conversations will inspire listeners to claim their own “author-ity” mindset and turn the story they can’t stop telling into a book the world needs to read.
To connect with the hosts and more, go to www.bookboundpodcast.com/
Amy Shoenthal [00:00:00]:
I feel like I see writing as a puzzle. Once I had all this stuff, there's like the chaotic compiling phase, which is when you're doing research and interviews, and it's just everywhere. And then you have to fit together the puzzle. And so that part, it's so challenging, but it's very rewarding for me.
Bethany Saltman [00:00:16]:
My name is Bethany Saltman, and I am an author and a best selling book coach.
Fran Hauser [00:00:22]:
And I'm Fran Hauser. I'm an author, a keynote speaker, and a publishing strategist. These how I did it conversations will inspire listeners to claim their own authority mindset and turn the story they can't stop telling into a book the world needs to read.
Bethany Saltman [00:00:37]:
This is Bookbound, the podcast created in partnership with Share Your Genius.
Fran Hauser [00:00:44]:
Thanks for joining us on this episode of Bookbound. I'm thrilled for you to hear from Amy Shoenthal, a USA Today bestselling authorization journalist, marketing consultant, and leadership coach. Throughout her career, Amy has worked with some of the world's largest brands, from Procter & Gamble to Google, providing strategic marketing guidance and helping shape their brand narratives. This conversation is really special because we don't just get to dive into her author journey, but we also get to tap into her business savvy as well. Amy shares so many actionable tips around nailing your book concept, building a framework, crafting a successful marketing plan, and more. It was such an interesting conversation. You're really in for a treat. Enjoy.
Fran Hauser [00:01:36]:
Hey, Amy.
Bethany Saltman [00:01:37]:
It's so exciting. I'm so excited to see you. Thank you and welcome to Bookbound.
Amy Shoenthal [00:01:42]:
Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here.
Bethany Saltman [00:01:44]:
Awesome. So we like to begin every interview with a similar question for each author, and it's about, how did you know that this topic, this idea, was more than just your personal interest or obsession and an actual book?
Amy Shoenthal [00:02:02]:
Well, I have two answers to this, which is, number one, it wasn't really a personal interest or obsession. It was something I kept seeing over and over. I'm a journalist, and I've interviewed lots and lots of people over the course of my career, and I feel like there was a moment, and it was really when the pandemic was at its height and we were all kind of stuck at home, and entrepreneurs and business leaders were really trying to navigate so many shifts. And I kept interviewing people, and I would hear their stories. And in every career story, in every career journey, they had the thing that got them to their best idea, or the thing they were most excited to tell me was when they climbed out of some sort of setback and I kept seeing this, and when you see something so much, you can't really ignore it. And I kept getting curious about it. And so I started to dive into what was happening, because none of the concepts that I understood were really encompassing everything I was seeing. So it wasn't always post traumatic growth, because not every story, not every setback was a trauma, and it wasn't always just like, learning from your mistakes, because not every setback was born of a mistake that they made.
Amy Shoenthal [00:03:18]:
And I kept seeing it and seeing it. And then I called my friend who coaches authors, and she helps people write book proposals. And I said, I think I'm seeing something. There's something happening here. I can't quite articulate it yet, but I'm researching it and diving into it and trying to understand it, and I think it's more than a 1500 word article. Do you think this could be a book? And she said, that is absolutely a book. Please go write it. And, you know, once someone you trust and is sort of credible in that space tells you to go, you kind of have an obligation to go.
Amy Shoenthal [00:03:55]:
And that's really what unlocked it. Just a trend I was seeing. And then someone telling me, like, this is certainly a book, please go write it.
Bethany Saltman [00:04:03]:
I love that. So you got permission.
Amy Shoenthal [00:04:05]:
I feel like I became accountable. I don't know that I needed permission. But once she said, that's a good idea for a book. If you have a good. If you're a person who is a writer and who has a lifelong dream of writing a book one day, and then you talk to a professional who coaches authors, and they say, this is a good idea for a book. How do you note, go and explore that and move forward in that?
Fran Hauser [00:04:30]:
So, Amy, what was the first thing you did? You know, you talked to your friend, and they're like, this is definitely a book. How did you start?
Amy Shoenthal [00:04:39]:
I just wrote, she said, write one page. Like, write a page and summarize, because I was just talking, and I didn't have the idea fully articulated then. I hadn't even come up with the word setback at that point because it took me a while to land on that word, to really summarize everything that I was seeing and to really clarify this universal experience that not only these really big, famous, and successful people have, but that every person has and can relate to and can understand. And so I wrote one page. I just wanted to articulate the idea that I had. And then she reviewed that, and she said, okay, keep going. And so, again, it was just this accountability, like someone knowing that I was working on this. I didn't tell anyone I was doing this except for her.
Amy Shoenthal [00:05:25]:
I didn't tell my family. I didn't tell my friends. I just started doing it little by little. And then once I felt like I had enough written enough of an outline of the idea, it started to feel more real. I started to tell people I was doing it. And I even started interviewing people specifically for the book, not just, hey, I'll interview you for an article and then maybe I'll use some of that for the book. It was like, hey, I'm writing a book. I'd like to get your thoughts on it.
Amy Shoenthal [00:05:51]:
And once I started sharing that with people, then I had people poking holes in my theory, you know, having sort of like conflicting ideas of how to work through a setback and what a setback really was and, you know, all kinds of things. And that was really fun to kind of comb through and say, okay, here are different viewpoints, different ideas, different advice and different insights and blending it together. I feel like I see writing as a puzzle. Once I had all this stuff. There's the chaotic compiling phase, which is when you're doing research and interviews and it's just everywhere, and then you have to fit together the puzzle. And so that part, it's so challenging, but it's very rewarding for me.
Fran Hauser [00:06:30]:
Well, and the framework that you came up with is just so smart, like the four e's. And I wonder, because we often hear, Bethany and I, we often hear from writers that that is one of the hardest parts. Right, because you've got all the content, and now how do you present it in a way that's really understandable and digestible that people are going to get? So how did you get to the framework? And tell us a little bit about the framework. It's so good.
Amy Shoenthal [00:06:58]:
So the framework is the four e's. There's four phases of The Setback Cycle. Establish, embrace, explore and emerge and establish as just saying, hey, I am in a setback. I'm admitting the moment that I'm in embrace is just sitting with it, digesting the information, learning from it, and trying to do that in a healthy way, which is challenging. And then once you learn from it, you go to phase three, which is explore. And that's going out into the world and testing new ideas and turning to friends and your community for advice and to test things out. And then emerge is when you gloriously come out of your setback and had so many different iterations of these phases. Like, I feel like it was a week before the final manuscript was due and I was changing phases because I think I started with three, then I went to five.
Amy Shoenthal [00:07:48]:
What happened was I had this idea for how the phases would be organized. I started writing, and then, you know, there would be moments where I realized, or maybe my agent realized, like, hey, I think these two are. You're really seeing the same thing. I feel like this should be combined into one phase. Then at some point, we realized so many people were, you know, I talked about, like, struggling to establish if you're in a setback, because so many people sort of sleepwalk into their own setbacks without even realize it. It's that stagnation that let's just keep going the path because it's easier to continue than to reroute that. And you kind of, like, walk into your own setback of your own design, and that's a whole thing. And I think at some point, I don't know if I'm the one that suggested it or an editor or my agent who was very involved in the process.
Amy Shoenthal [00:08:38]:
We said, you know what? I think this whole concept of people needing to wake up from their setback is a phase. And so that's how we created the establish phase, because there was too much there to have it lumped into a different. I think it was originally in the embrace phase. Like, oh, you're in a setback, you have to embrace it. That, like, establish was part of that. But then we ended up pulling it out to make its own phase because the established phase can be 1 second. For someone who has a life changing setback, in a moment, you know, you're fired, you're laid off, your partner comes to you and says, I want a divorce. Like, that's a moment where your setback is clear.
Amy Shoenthal [00:09:15]:
But so many of us, we don't realize we're in a setback. And I didn't realize how common that was. But when I realized how, when I talked to more and more people and so many people related to that idea, it just became bigger and it deserved its own phase.
Bethany Saltman [00:09:29]:
This is so good. I know people are going to love hearing how you iterate and how you played, as we like to say, with this material. So could you back up a little bit? And I really want to hear about when you finally found the word setback. I'd love to hear that. I love that you're talking about learning about your own material in the process with an agent. So if you could walk us through the timeline a little bit, because people think you have to have a completely done idea. Then you get an agent, then you sell the book, then you write it. So mix that up for us a little bit.
Amy Shoenthal [00:10:03]:
So there is no greater way to learn about setbacks and to become experienced working through setbacks than to try to publish a book.
Bethany Saltman [00:10:13]:
Oh, my gosh.
Amy Shoenthal [00:10:14]:
So, like I said, I started writing this. I believe it was 20. Yeah, it was 2021. So we were, like, deep into the pandemic. People were just starting to get vaccine. I think I actually wrote the first page of it. Like, I typed it out in a note on my phone while waiting in line to get vaccine, like a COVID vaccine for the first time. Just picture the world at this moment.
Amy Shoenthal [00:10:33]:
It's a weird time. And I think I started writing it, and I centered most of the stories that I was writing around the pandemic and how entrepreneurs and leaders got through the pandemic. And the original title of my book was visionaries. And it was like, the women leaders who had a vision for the future and went out and built it. Like, that was my book proposal in 2021. And now that's the name of my consulting company, Visionaries collective.
Bethany Saltman [00:11:02]:
I love it.
Amy Shoenthal [00:11:04]:
Visionaries was my book proposal. It was all about how these women leaders got through the pandemic. And I went out to a bunch of agents, and I was so confident that this was my book. And I got so many responses, which I thought was great. They were all rejections, but I was pumped that people didn't ghost me. All right? This is, like, where my expectations are. And people came to me, and they. And every agent, and I pitched a couple editors, too, who I had warm connections to, and they all said the same thing.
Amy Shoenthal [00:11:34]:
They all said, by the time this book gets published, it's going to be, you know, 2024, 2025. No one's going to want to read a book about the pandemic. And one agent, and this agent did not end up working with me. Like, she. Like, I got rejected by her. But she said something so smart, I. She said, all of the issues that you're writing about were prevalent well before the pandemic. Go back and tie it together and make the pandemic a moment.
Amy Shoenthal [00:11:59]:
Don't make it the whole theme of the book.
Bethany Saltman [00:12:01]:
Brilliant.
Amy Shoenthal [00:12:02]:
I mean, I got so many rejections in that phase. This is, I guess, fall 2021 when I go out, because I spent six months writing the book proposal. I go out, I'm pumped. So many rejections, but every single one of them gave very helpful feedback. And I took that feedback, and I updated the book, and I said, okay, you know, if the pandemic isn't the thing, what is the thing that is tying all of it together? And that's when I started going through that thought process that I explained, well, it's not all post traumatic growth because it's not all trauma. And even, even the people who were impacted by the pandemic, the impact on their business wasn't always traumatic. So it wasn't a post traumatic growth book, and there's plenty of books about post traumatic growth, so that I didn't need to write that. And so that was sort of the moment when I went on my search for the thing that would tie this together.
Amy Shoenthal [00:12:50]:
And then I came upon the definition of a setback. And the definition, the dictionary definition of a setback is a reversal or check in progress. So it's when you're moving forward on a path and you're unexpectedly bumped backwards. And that was what happened to everyone again, whether it was these big, life altering setbacks or the subtle, slow ones that you don't even realize until you're sort of forced to acknowledge them. Once I came on that definition and I started exploring some of these issues outside of just the lens of the pandemic, I zoomed out. I started talking to experts like a neuroscientist and some executive coaches and some psychologists to really, really dive into the concept of setbacks. And I looked at, you know, you have to do competitive research if you're going to write a book and see what else is out there. And I couldn't find any books that were really about setbacks.
Amy Shoenthal [00:13:42]:
There were a couple that were more about sports. And it was like, the setback sets you up for the comeback, and it was very sort of like, rah, rah. I didn't really find anything that was focused on business or career, and that's what I wanted to focus on. And there wasn't anything super actionable.
Fran Hauser [00:14:00]:
There's so many books on failure. And what I love is that you're really, you're distinguishing, right? You're saying, no, setback is different.
Amy Shoenthal [00:14:09]:
It can be a failure, but it isn't always a failure.
Fran Hauser [00:14:12]:
It isn't always. So that's a fine point that you really put on it that allowed you to put something out in the marketplace that was different. It stood out. It was a fresh concept.
Bethany Saltman [00:14:25]:
Yeah, no, it's so good. And it's such a good example of, you know, you're in a zone, you're interested, you're seeing a trend, you're trusting yourself, you're trusting, you know, people are giving you feedback. Like your friend said, yes, this is good. It's just not there yet. What you're telling us is be patient with the process, trust the process, play with what you know. And, yeah, it's such a great story about that.
Amy Shoenthal [00:14:48]:
And rejection is information. Yes, that rejection I got the first time I pitched the book, I didn't get one. Yes, it was all no's, but it was no's. With, here's some advice. And I'm so grateful for all of those agents and editors who responded in that way, because it did set me on the path to getting this book in the world. And then when I edited and revised, when I went back the second time around, and it was probably a whole year later, it was an entire year of me. Because don't forget, I went out. It was.
Amy Shoenthal [00:15:17]:
I started that March 2021 went out for the first round. It was like September of 2021. I went back that whole winter, because that was, you know, between September and November, when I was getting all these rejections, I had to. Again, I had to embrace it. I had to digest it. And then I went out, and probably that whole winter I spent revising the proposal, and I went out again to agents that spring, and that's when I got my agent, Courtney Paganelli. She's the best in the business. I love her.
Amy Shoenthal [00:15:47]:
I become good friends. I've now sent many authors to her. She's amazing. And I got such a better response the second time around. I went back to a lot of the agents I had already spoken to, but Courtney, a lot of them wanted me to change some things, not just, like, little things here and there. Like, they wanted me to fundamentally change what I was writing about. And Courtney was the one who believed in this book, in the concept of The Setback Cycle. And she was like, this book is going to change lives.
Amy Shoenthal [00:16:15]:
I would love to represent it. And I was like, she's going to fight for me. She is going to bat for me. And there were other way more high profile agents, and I feel like their vibe was a little more like, they would take me on as, like, a favor to me. Like, oh, that's nice. We'll take you on. And I was like, I don't know if I need, like, a favor. Like, I don't know, like, okay, thank you.
Amy Shoenthal [00:16:38]:
But. And I. She was like, she was hungry, and I was like, I'm going with her. She's amazing.
Fran Hauser [00:16:44]:
So that was the spring of 22. Yeah.
Amy Shoenthal [00:16:47]:
So that was spring 2022. We spent that whole summer revising the proposal, now that I had an agent, we revised it, and we pitched editors that fall, and I got the book deal November 2022.
Fran Hauser [00:16:59]:
You know, the timeline is actually pretty accelerated compared to what I've usually seen, like, so to get a deal the fall of 22, and this came out in March of 24. So that's pretty amazing. Tell us about your publisher, because if I have it correct, I think this is a fairly new publisher, right?
Amy Shoenthal [00:17:21]:
Yeah. So I feel like I was in the first round of authors. So Gretchen Young, who's a publishing industry icon, I believe I forgot the company she worked at. I think it was, like, Union Square or Grand Central Publishing, some sort of subway station. So she worked. She was an editor at those publishing companies for decades, and then she went off on her own, and she started her own imprint called Regallopress. And Regalo means the gift of. So she wanted to merge publishing with philanthropy.
Amy Shoenthal [00:17:53]:
So every time they publish a book, they make a donation to a nonprofit of the author's choosing on publication day. And, yeah, so I loved that so much, and there were so many things I loved about this publishing company. And Gretchen is just such a delight and a wonderful human being. And so smarteendez, she's really, like, transforming the publishing industry overall. She wants to make it a nicer place. She wants to foster talent of up and coming author. I mean, I was there as more of an up and coming author. There were a couple, like, more celebrities, like, high profile folks on her roster.
Amy Shoenthal [00:18:31]:
But I don't know. I just feel like I had so much support from them. And a lot of people don't say that about their publisher. Like, I felt like they were cheering me on. They were in my corner. Like, look, it was small. We had limited resources. There was not a lot of budget.
Amy Shoenthal [00:18:45]:
But we did what we could, and it was a we. It wasn't just me. Hey, there.
Bethany Saltman [00:18:51]:
Sorry to interrupt, but we've got some breaking news. We've gotten so much incredible feedback about this podcast, the very one you're listening to right now, that we decided to expand into substack in order to reach more people and share more of the nitty gritty of how to write and sell your nonfiction book idea. Books with Bethany and Fran is the name of our bi weekly newsletter, recalling it a love letter to nonfiction writers and their books.
Bethany Saltman [00:19:17]:
That's you.
Bethany Saltman [00:19:18]:
By sharing our insider insights, tips, resources, and one juicy critique of a reader's nonfiction book, we hope to make publishing clear and kind. We're committed to you. And for now, all of our content is free. Head on over to substack and check out books with Bethany and Fran, and we hope you'll share your book idea for a future critique.
Amy Shoenthal [00:19:38]:
Okay, back to the podcast.
Fran Hauser [00:19:40]:
I love having them on our radar.
Bethany Saltman [00:19:42]:
Bethany. Yes, absolutely. Yep.
Fran Hauser [00:19:45]:
Right. Regal oppress. Let's segue a little bit into author, platform and marketing because our listeners love hearing about this. Tell us, Amy, so when you were working on the proposal and then revising the proposal, what was your platform like back then? What would you say was the strongest part of your platform that got agents excited or ultimately your publisher excited?
Amy Shoenthal [00:20:11]:
That is a really great question, because I have very. I don't have a lot of social media followers at all. I'm like regular person status over here. And I got rejected from quite a few publishers because I don't have 50,000 Instagram followers. And I was kind of annoyed by that. But I was also prepared for it because people warned me about it. But what some people saw and what some people said was, you're a journalist, you write for Forbes. People know you from your columns.
Amy Shoenthal [00:20:39]:
They're not necessarily following you on Instagram, but they're reading your work. So I think it was more of your platform is not just your own social media channels. It was more of, like, my network, the publications I wrote for. I also wrote for Harvard Business Review, Fast Company. You know, I've been published in a bunch of places, so I had a little bit of credibility as a writer going into this. I also do a lot of speaking. So I'm at conferences all the time I'm speaking. So I have these platforms where people will hear about my work, even if you can't see them, like in my follower count.
Amy Shoenthal [00:21:12]:
And also a lot of people, you know, I, and look, I purposely did this. They were good stories. But also that some of the people in my book are high profile people, and that's, again, by design. And so I think publishers got excited, like, oh, maybe these people will share it on their channels. And they did. Most of them did. And so I think the power for me was more in my network and the platforms that weren't necessarily reflected in my name and on my social media channels specifically.
Fran Hauser [00:21:40]:
I'm so glad you said that, because I think it's really common for people to equate platform to social media, and it's so much more than that. Right. It's like thinking more expansively, thinking about, like, I love the idea of the people that you interviewed for the book, even listing those people out in your book proposal. Like, these are the people that I'm going to be interviewing and they have their own influence, but this idea of, like, borrowed influence, right? And if you're speaking and you're writing and, like, all of it.
Amy Shoenthal [00:22:10]:
So I'm a marketer by trade, like any good journalism student. I got a job in marketing after college because I had to pay and student loans to pay off. So I've always been a freelance writer. I've been doing it on the side, but I have worked in marketing for 20 years, and I worked at big agencies on big brands, and I was lucky. I learned from some really, really talented people throughout my career. So I knew what to do with the marketing of this. And I was like, I knew what I had. I knew it was limited, like, limited budget, limited platform, but I was like, I can make this work.
Amy Shoenthal [00:22:41]:
And so my proposal, the marketing plan of my proposal blew publishers away. It blew them away.
Bethany Saltman [00:22:48]:
Wow.
Amy Shoenthal [00:22:48]:
Because I knew what I, like, knew what to do, and I've been now sharing that with people that I'm working with. But, yeah, I had a pretty good marketing plan. Again, I led with, I don't even think I put my own social media handles in my marketing plan because, like, who cares? Obviously, I'm gonna use those, but that's not what's gonna be important to publishers. So everything else would you be open to sharing?
Fran Hauser [00:23:12]:
Just a couple of things that you included in your marketing, the marketing section of the proposal, besides the sort of, like, the listing, like, the people and the organizations that you think are going to help amplify the book?
Amy Shoenthal [00:23:24]:
Well, I did have a list of conferences that I had spoken at, and I would say, like, we'll probably speak here again. You know, could reach out to this person to try to speak here. You know, I was very specific in, here's what I can guarantee. Here's what I could try to do. So it wasn't like, I don't know. I feel like a lot of authors will list, like, really big things. Like, I'm gonna be in Reese's book club, right? And so I think I divided it into, like, a very sort of, like, here's what's realistic. Here's what I can aim for.
Amy Shoenthal [00:23:53]:
And that was with conferences, that was with influencers. And I was like, here's some people I know who could blurb it. Here's. And I remember getting a lot of praise on, like, my blurb list. So that was cool. And then I also just, like, had some really fun ideas. You know, I wanted to do, like, a books and booze series where, like, people gather at bookshops and talk about setbacks, and we bring booze. You know, there were all these, like, fun ideas and concepts, and then I also gave, like, for events and giveaways and mailers.
Amy Shoenthal [00:24:25]:
And for some people, you know, I wanted to go everywhere I went on a speaking engagement, I would do something in that local market. My book marketing strategy was, like, very sort of, like, localized. Like, hey, I'm going to be in Nashville for the mom two conference. Here's what I'm going to do in Nashville.
Bethany Saltman [00:24:42]:
Yeah.
Amy Shoenthal [00:24:42]:
And I really focused on, like, specific markets.
Fran Hauser [00:24:45]:
So great. I mean, the book is a USA Today bestseller, which is amazing. Congratulations.
Amy Shoenthal [00:24:51]:
Thank you.
Fran Hauser [00:24:52]:
That's such a huge accomplishment. This is such a hard question, but do you have a sense of what actually drove book sales for you?
Amy Shoenthal [00:25:01]:
It had to be a combination of everything I did. I do think that local, you know, sort of that local focus probably helped. You know, what I think really helped drive book sales was the book came out during Women's History Month, and it's a book about women leaders, mostly women leaders, not all women, but it's mostly focused on women leaders overcoming career setbacks. That's exactly what every news organization wants during Women's History Month. Another thing that I was shocked by. First of all, I was shocked to get on the USA Today bestseller list. I was just happy I got a book deal. You know, I was like, oh, that's great.
Amy Shoenthal [00:25:35]:
If we sell any, that's cool. So, again, like, managing your expectations is key here. And, like, also celebrating the small wins. And I kept reminding myself, like, don't get too far ahead of yourself because it's still really awesome that you got a book deal. It's still really awesome that this little thing happened. Like, I really. I was focused on that. And then anything beyond that, I would.
Amy Shoenthal [00:25:56]:
I would be thrilled about the one thing that really surprised me. Again, I had all these really prominent founders with these big, dramatic setback stories in here, but I needed to illustrate the story of a subtle setback for that established phase. And so I shared my own, which was a very subtle, non dramatic. I sort of just noticed slowly that after becoming a mother, my career sort of went downhill in a lot of ways. And again, that wasn't really anyone's fault, but it's something that I didn't notice for a long time. And then I kind of woke up and I realized that this was my defining moment. And what I did with it after, I think was really interesting to readers because I didn't just take it sitting down I built a whole side career that ended up being my safety net. And with so many prominent founders and famous people in the book, I thought that would be the hook.
Amy Shoenthal [00:26:46]:
But every news organization, every person who interviewed me, they wanted to hear my story. And that was the biggest surprise because it was vulnerable, and it was also really relatable.
Bethany Saltman [00:26:56]:
Yeah.
Amy Shoenthal [00:26:57]:
You know, you have the big inspirational folks and you're like, wow, that's so cool that they did that. Like, I don't know if I can do that. But mine was just such a. The story of, like, an everyday person that goes through something that many women and many parents in the workforce experience. And it was the subtlety of it that I think really shook people and woke them up to potential setbacks they might be facing.
Bethany Saltman [00:27:18]:
That's such a good example of a lot of people who have a really big idea, but they don't necessarily think that they should fold their own story into it. But in fact, this is what people love. I mean, I read that story again and again in preparation for this interview. That's what people were really pointing to.
Amy Shoenthal [00:27:37]:
It was so surprising. You read the book. My story is a page and a half. Such a small part of it. It was never. And I had to be pushed to even include it.
Bethany Saltman [00:27:47]:
Exactly.
Amy Shoenthal [00:27:48]:
I didn't even think I should include it in the book. I thought this is a story about women leaders who are much, you know, more well known than I am. Let's talk about them. And, of course, as a human being, I think everyone else's stories are more interesting than my own. So I had to really be pushed to put my own in there. And then I did it, and I felt, like, a little uncomfortable about it. You know, there were other people involved, and I didn't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable. I did.
Amy Shoenthal [00:28:12]:
I did make them feel uncomfortable. And that, you know, I just have to of live with that. And it's. I told the truth, and not everyone's comfortable with hearing the truth of what happened. And so that's something I deal with, but I was really hesitant to do that. But it. You want to know what got me on the bestseller list? It might have been. That might have been a big part of it, because a lot of those women's history month new segments that I got on, they asked me about my story, and that ended up being, like, the focus of it.
Amy Shoenthal [00:28:39]:
So.
Bethany Saltman [00:28:40]:
Oh, my gosh, this is so important. That whole thing of, like, I didn't want to include my own story. People told me to. I did. That's what everybody asked about. That's what probably maybe sold a lot of books. What an incredible story.
Amy Shoenthal [00:28:56]:
Isn't it wild?
Bethany Saltman [00:28:57]:
Yes.
Fran Hauser [00:28:58]:
Well, Amy, I have to tell you, I had the exact same experience with the myth of the nice girl. I don't think I ever told you this. So I got the book deal. I have two editors that are amazing editors, and I. I submitted the first chapter, and Rick Wolf, who was kind of the lead editor, asked if I could hop on a call with him. And I'm like, this isn't good. Like, he wants to talk on the phone. So I got on the phone with him and he said, look, he's like, I love all the stories about other women, the women that you've interviewed and the research that you're pulling into this and all of that.
Fran Hauser [00:29:33]:
He's like, but I'm not seeing any vulnerability here at all. You need to share your own setbacks. Literally, you need to share your own setbacks. You need to share your own learning moments. Otherwise, the book is not going to be relatable. And I remember getting off the phone with him and really wondering if I was going to be able to do that, because it is so much harder to share your own stories. And also not just because of. Maybe there's a little shame, maybe there's some embarrassment, but it is also the other people that now I have to, like, talk about and how's it going to make them feel right? But that's the biggest thing.
Fran Hauser [00:30:12]:
But once I did it, oh, my gosh, it made the book so much better. And I literally approached it, like, every chapter, I tried to tuck in, even if it was, like, a small, like, anecdote. And it is. It's the personal storytelling that I think does make the book accessible and truly, like, it's something that people can connect with. I'm so glad you shared that. It's such an important takeaway.
Amy Shoenthal [00:30:37]:
I feel like you also learn about yourself by writing your own story, because, again, as a journalist, that's not something I ever did. Like, I'm always sharing other people's stories. But then by being coaxed into writing my own story, I realized how much it had impacted me, because, again, I was over here pretending everything was fine, even though, like, I came back from maternity leave and I was removed from accounts. When you're removed from accounts at an agency, like, that's a problem. And I did everything I needed to do. I built myself back up. I figured it out, and I built my business backup. That wasn't fair.
Amy Shoenthal [00:31:12]:
I shouldn't have had to do that, and I never would have said that as it was happening. I never would have said anything was wrong. I never would have admitted that there was any sort of problem because I just wanted to keep that job. I loved it and I wanted to continue to thrive in it. So I was like, okay, I'll figure out how to. Since I can't work on these things that I helped build for so long, I'm going to just go work on other stuff and it's going to be fine and I'm going to stay here and I'm going to do all the things. But what I did on the side was, again, I started writing more, I started consulting on the side because I was speaking more and getting just more visibility, and I got the book deal all while that was happening because I turned my energy and ambition to this other piece of my life because I felt little undervalued in the main full time job. And that's the story of so many people.
Amy Shoenthal [00:32:00]:
So many people. But of course, I made people feel uncomfortable in telling that story. I warned them. I was like, hey, you're gonna be uncomfortable when this book comes out. And they were like, okay, cool. But then I don't think they, like, understood fully.
Fran Hauser [00:32:10]:
Yeah, they didn't fully get it until they saw it.
Amy Shoenthal [00:32:12]:
Well, I think I was once again underestimated. And we're like, oh, wait a minute. She really told all the truths.
Bethany Saltman [00:32:19]:
Okay, good for you.
Fran Hauser [00:32:21]:
But you did give them a heads up, though. Like, good for you.
Amy Shoenthal [00:32:23]:
I tried.
Fran Hauser [00:32:24]:
Yeah, you tried, right. Which is the right thing to do. So when I think about, like, your whole, like, book publishing journey, the whole process, and as you said, the setbacks, you know, in the process, is there anything that you would do differently if you had to do it all over again?
Amy Shoenthal [00:32:42]:
I honestly don't know what I wish. It's not that I would do this differently. Every author is going to say this no matter what level of budget they had, but, like, I just, I wish I had more resources. I wish I had more budget. I wish I could have hired a full time. I mean, I don't know. I feel like I did okay with the publicity, but it would have been awesome if I could hire, like, a full time publicist or someone to help me with my social media or just, like, another person to bounce ideas off of and things like that. Like, I did it all myself.
Amy Shoenthal [00:33:09]:
Like, all my, everything I did to, like, tease the book once pre orders were alive. I mean, I had someone I worked with to help me with, like, graphic design here and there. And she was amazing. And then I just had, like, friends doing me incredible favors, making connections to people. And so I feel like I did okay, but I never really felt like I could put too many demands on one person because I wasn't paying anyone to help me. And so I just, I guess I wish I had, you know, I wish I could have spent more on Amazon marketing or done an influencer campaign or gotten on TikTok. Do you know what I mean? Like, I didn't do any of that. I feel like there were all these opportunities to do so much more, but I didn't have the budget.
Fran Hauser [00:33:54]:
It's like there's unlimited opportunities and limited resources. I always say that with this process, right. So much of it is just really prioritizing. And obviously you prioritize well because the book is doing great. So good for you.
Bethany Saltman [00:34:10]:
I would also say that so many people who might have resources, they think that they can throw the resources in that direction. And actually you doing it on your own, when your next book comes out and you have maybe more resources, you are going to be exponentially better at marketing. Obviously, you're a marketer, but because you've done it yourself, and so many authors think that if they pay someone, a PR person, a publicity person, a social media person, nobody can do it like you can.
Amy Shoenthal [00:34:42]:
Yeah. And I mean, look, there was a lot of right time, right place. Again, the book coming out during women's history month, having this vulnerable maternity leave story, having, you know, the stories of people were also really struggling this year. There were a lot of layoffs. There was a lot of need for motivation. And once you see, like, The Setback Cycle and you see the orange cover and the optimistic sort of, like, vibe, you're like, what is that? People have been saying, like, it's a quick read, so you get through it quickly and you feel a little smarter after it. One person said it's like a gateway for other books because there's so many books that are referenced in it from all the research I did. And I got people who maybe weren't big readers to breeze through my book and then get curious about maybe exploring some other books that I referenced in there.
Amy Shoenthal [00:35:28]:
So that made me feel good.
Fran Hauser [00:35:29]:
So I know it's really soon to ask you this, but do you see yourself writing another book?
Amy Shoenthal [00:35:33]:
Oh, yeah. I'm already working on my next book proposal.
Bethany Saltman [00:35:36]:
What is it? What is it? Can you share a little?
Amy Shoenthal [00:35:38]:
It's funny. If you really look, if you read the last chapter of The Setback Cycle, you'll see hints for, okay, it's like a little bit of a spin off. I didn't realize how many hints there were to the next book, which I got the idea for as I was probably finishing up this one. But if you read the last chapter, you'll see it. And I didn't realize how clear it was until I started recording the audiobook. When I recorded the audiobook, I was already writing the next book proposal. And as I read that last chapter out loud, like, every word, I was like, oh, my God.
Fran Hauser [00:36:10]:
It's all here, actually. The audible, the narrating. I loved that process so much. It was such a special, intimate process, especially because it had been so long after the book went through editing and copy editing, proofreading, and I almost felt like I lost a little bit of connection with the book for months. And then, like, going into the studio and, like, narrating every word, it really did feel so special. So I love that for Amy, reading that last chapter, it was like, okay, my next book.
Amy Shoenthal [00:36:44]:
Well, I also, you know, my narration was, like, a little delayed, so the book had already come out, and I had been on the speaker circuit doing all the media interviews, like, talking about the book incessantly, and I was like, oh, my God, now I'm going to go read it. I'm going to hate it. I'm just going to hate it. I'm going to find a million typos. I was, like, really scared. Like, I would not enjoy the audiobook narration. So I go into the studio and I read the whole thing over the course of a couple days, and I loved it. And I was like, I love this book.
Amy Shoenthal [00:37:16]:
It's amazing. And even though I should be sick of talking about it, I'm not, because you always find new things. I always tell people, like, read the book now, see where you're at, see what you pick up from it. But the next time you're in a setback, go read it again, because you're going to take away something different. You're going to zoom in on something that you really weren't focused on before. So I think there are seasons of your life where you're going to take away different things from this book. And I think by the time I read it to do the audio narration, I was, you know, I had encountered different setbacks and I had been sort of on the other side of this big thing that I had been working towards for years, and it was, I took things away from the piece of work that I had created, and that was. That was really, really cool.
Amy Shoenthal [00:37:59]:
And I saw the seeds of my second book being planted. So that was also very cool.
Bethany Saltman [00:38:03]:
Amazing.
Amy Shoenthal [00:38:04]:
Oh, my gosh.
Fran Hauser [00:38:04]:
Well, I'm so excited for your second book, and I feel like we're, like, some of your biggest fans right here. We adore you. Thank you so much for joining us today. I'm so excited for everybody to just listen to all of your wisdom and just all of the gems that you dropped. Amy, what is the best way for people to just stay connected with you?
Amy Shoenthal [00:38:26]:
LinkedIn, Instagram, my book. My book website, thesetbackcycle.com, has the contact me info. So if you want to get in touch, just go to my website. Easy to remember, thesetbackcycle.com, and then you can connect with me there.
Bethany Saltman [00:38:40]:
Amazing.
Fran Hauser [00:38:41]:
Amazing. Thank you so, so much. Good luck with everything.
Amy Shoenthal [00:38:44]:
Thank you so much.
Fran Hauser [00:38:46]:
Bye.
Bethany Saltman [00:38:49]:
Thank you for joining us on Bookbound.
Fran Hauser [00:38:52]:
If you like what you heard, please subscribe and rate and review us on your favorite podcast listening platform.
Bethany Saltman [00:38:59]:
Please visit us at bookboundpodcast.com for more on us and how we work with authors.