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Join me, Jess VanderWier, a registered psychotherapist, mom of three, and founder of Nurtured First, along with my husband Scott, as we dive deep into the stories of our friends, favourite celebrities, and influential figures.
In each episode, we skip the small talk and dive into vulnerable and honest conversations about topics like cycle breaking, trauma, race, mental health, parenting, sex, religion, postpartum, healing, and loss.
We are glad you are here.
PS: The name Robot Unicorn comes from our daughter. When we asked her what we should name the podcast, she confidently came up with this name because she loves robots, and she loves unicorns, so why not? There was something about the playfulness of the name, the confidence in her voice, and the fact that it represents that you can love two things at once that just felt right.
Welcome to Robot Unicorn, hosted by my parents, Jess and Scott.
I hope you enjoyed the episode.
Welcome Jessica.
Welcome.
How are you today?
I had to think about that for a minute, but yeah, no, I'm good.
Had a busy weekend with the girls, Easter, Easter weekend, lots of family things, lots of activities, so it was busy
But good.
Spent the day with the girls running errands yesterday.
I could tell they were just done.
Like I actually was thinking a lot of the work that we do because
They just were all having meltdowns.
Everyone was upset.
Everyone was grumpy.
And, you know, you get curious, you think about it, and you're just like, Man, it's been busy.
We just need some downtime.
We did have a very busy weekend
So I had that kind of day yesterday with the kids where it's just a lot of melting down, a lot of challenges.
But honestly, I still enjoyed myself and had a good day with them, even though they had a bad day.
I talked to them and they seem to all have
A fine day.
Like yeah, there were parts of it that's a good idea.
It turned around.
It actually turned around really nice.
And it got sunny out.
It was raining all day and then when the sun came out we started running around outside and it ended up being really nice evening.
Biking and everything.
Biking and playing.
Cleaning up the garage.
Well that was nice for you.
So all in all, yeah, I think feeling pretty good.
How about you?
Yeah, good.
Yeah.
I think this past weekend was very busy.
And
This coming weekend maybe won't be quite as busy, but I'm still taking the kids to Toronto myself.
Mm-hmm.
At least the older two.
'Cause there's a Nintendo launch event for this new Switch that I probably won't be buying 'cause it's too expensive.
But our daughter was asking us for it and I said
Uh I don't think so.
Yeah.
But all in all, it should be fun, but that's gonna make this coming weekend a little busy for the girls too.
So we'll probably have to have some built-in downtime.
before and after I take them to Toronto and Yeah, and then I actually think the next weekend is the walk that I'm doing.
Is that already the week after?
Yeah, it's already May.
Wow.
So a few busy weekends in a row.
We've had a lot going on lately and Scott and I prefer to have minimal things going on on a weekend.
So internally we feel like the kids are outwardly.
Yes, exactly.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah
Anyways, let's get into the topic.
Last week we talked about uh part one of healthy skepticism
and trust and what that looks like in little kids.
And we kind of defined what trust is versus love and all that.
So I'm gonna start with the next question on the list.
Middle childhood, so that's 6-12 range, the big kid range, seems to be a real testing ground for trust, particularly around peer loyalty and fairness.
What are the most common trust-related challenges you see in kids in friendships during these years and how can adults guide them through betrayals or disappointments without crushing their willingness to connect?
Because I think that is pretty challenging.
Like I think
I'm sure we both dealt with that in that age range.
Well, you definitely did.
I remember you talking about that.
Yeah, I feel like I've talked a lot about different friendship struggles and my experience is the common experience, especially for girls, but it is the same thing in boys, I think.
With boys it's not always at that age as emotionally deep.
I think sometimes that develops over time.
But for girls in these early years of friendship, I think trust
Testing is a very common thing.
Like they're trying to figure out if they can trust each other.
And it goes to a lot of what we've talked about in terms of
peer orientation, right?
So if if a child is not having that trusted relationship at home, if they haven't learned how to have a solid relationship with their own parents.
then they're often turning to their peers and they're turning to their peers for their sense of belonging and closeness and then they're testing their peers a little bit, right?
Like can I trust you?
And if they can't, some kids who don't know how to cope with that
feeling of disappointment or who've experienced a lot of broken trust might retaliate.
And so I feel like we just get these like a lot of layers.
It gets really complex in those years.
Especially actively
Testing that though?
Or just a part of it I think it's just a part of it, right?
It's like I tell you a secret about something that's going on with me.
Will you tell someone?
Right?
Like that's like in my head a kind of a test, right?
Of trust
I don't know that she actively is understanding that that's what's happening.
But I think she's building these connections in her head, right?
Well, this person's always kind of mean to me and makes fun of me.
Okay, so I'm learning.
I can't really trust this person.
This is the person who I really like.
Now I'm gonna hang out with her a little bit.
I'm gonna see if she treats me that same way.
Is she nice to me?
Is she mean to me?
Does she make fun of me?
like kind of testing that trust, right?
And if over and over this person repeatedly is kind to her and compassionate, has empathy towards her, she's starting to learn, okay, this is someone that I can trust and someone who I'm gonna spend my time with that school
And I think a lot of that we do start to see play out a little bit on social media when the kids start to get onto social media and their Facebook messengering each other and they're on Snapchat, right?
Can I trust you even when you're we're in a group chat together?
They're never actively asking themselves this question, right?
Can I trust you?
But in these tiny interactions that they have, that's what they're trying to figure out.
Who can I trust?
Who are my real friends gonna be?
Who gives me a sense of closeness and belonging?
Who makes me feel terrible about myself?
That's really developing in those ages.
And what they're trying to figure out is like, who are my people?
And I think it gets kind of complex and messy sometimes because you have the whole bunch of kids
all trying to figure out if they can trust each other, but all of their brains are still not fully developed and they're gonna make mistakes and hurt each other.
And I I think that those years can just be messy in terms of trying to figure out how to trust
See, I would argue that kids, especially in that age range, when where you're talking about that peer orientation, they are actually trying to fit in.
So it is less about them trying to figure out who their people are and more about how can I fit in with other people.
So it's kind of the reverse of what you're saying?
Just based on how they're acting.
They're trying to fit in with the rest of the group.
So maybe what I'm describing could be like the healthier way to do it.
Right?
Yeah.
So the healthier option would be a child going into this age, trying to figure out, can I trust these people?
Being reflective, wondering why
Does this person give me this feeling?
Our oldest daughter does that very well.
Yeah.
Like if you think about when we were in that age range, I think it was more about trying to fit in.
than it was about testing those relationships to see who we would want to interact with more.
And we inevitably found that out because there were certain people that were reliable and honest and trustworthy with us and others that were not.
But I think it was more just those awkward years where you're trying to fit in with everyone's like growing and developing, starting to hit puberty.
It's like
It's the awkward years of childhood.
And I feel like kids are more, at least I was, more internal, thinking about, okay, how what can I do to f actually fit in here?
Yeah, and maybe that's the difference between our two upbringings, right?
Because I even remember at that stage, even though I wanted to have friends, fitting in or being popular was just never something I cared about
Like I didn't have that deep desire to fit in and I feel like there's this balance and this goes into teens and adults.
still struggle with this of belonging versus authenticity, right?
Like I want to belong to this group.
I want to feel seen.
I I want to be a part of this group.
And then there's often that battle of like, but can I still be my authentic self in this group
Right.
And I feel like that is really what we're kind of talking about, those two pieces that starts in that those middle years.
Yep.
Belonging versus authenticity.
And and often
It feels like you have to choose one in those years.
Yeah, I think that's accurate.
Because I would say that I chose belonging over authenticity.
Yeah.
Kind of up until my adult years.
And many people do for so long in their lives.
They choose belonging.
And so they'll do things that they don't really want to do, but it's just if I do this, then I'm a part of the group.
Mm-hmm.
Or even you see family systems, right?
My whole family believes this.
I don't really, but when I'm with them, I'll say I do because then I belong to them.
So it's this internal bottle that I think
that's really what we're talking about starts in those middle years when you're starting to develop your own values, you're starting to see what you believe and who you want to trust.
It's this battle between I want to belong and I want to be authentic, but sometimes I have to choose one or the other and that's really hard.
Yeah.
So maybe a better question than how can we guide our kids when they're in this age range through betrayals and disappointments, it's how can we guide them?
through choosing to be authentic over choosing only belonging.
Yeah.
Or maybe both.
But like I don't know, maybe there's a healthy mix between the two.
I think the desire for belonging makes sense
Right?
Everybody desires to belong.
We are Well, that's I think humanity.
Up until recently we were quite tribal, right?
So it We're created to be close to other people, right?
I I don't think there's anything wrong with our desire to belong that is
part of our development.
But I think when that desire to belong and when you start to notice in your child that the desire to belong means they're not being authentic anymore, that's when we want to intervene as parents.
But I actually think to skip ahead to where we'll probably go for ourselves as adults, it actually starts with looking at ourselves.
Where are we if you think of belonging and authenticity on, you know, a bit of a scale
Like where are you?
Do you seek so much to belong that you can't be authentic?
Like can you actually model authentic conversations to your kids?
I remember having this conversation with moms in therapy before, right?
And often
This really comes up as your kids get older and they're really watching you.
And the moms would say, like, look, I'm a certain way around my family.
You know, they have certain beliefs or values or political views or whatever it is.
And when I'm with them, I say I agree with them.
But then when I'm home, I teach my kids something totally different.
And I don't want to be that person anymore because then my kids see, well, why when you're at
Nana's house do you say one thing and when you're home you say another thing.
They're witnessing a parent who's not authentic.
And I think if we want to teach our kids that their authentic voice matters and we want them to be authentic at school and at home and wherever they are
It has to come from them seeing that in us first.
And I think modeling being authentic and true to yourself is huge for our kids
Hey friends, so at pickup last week our daughter asked Scott a truly kind of tricky question in front of her younger siblings.
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Alright, let's move on to teens.
As teens strive for independence, trust dynamics with parents often shift pretty dramatically.
They might trust peers more, test boundaries, and the sting of betrayal can feel incredibly immense.
So what advice do you have for parents trying to maintain or rebuild trust with their teenagers during this complex stage?
Because again, they're going through puberty and everything at that time too.
So it just
the flood of hormones and whatever they're going through.
We went through it, but it's hard to remember.
Mm-hmm.
I would say a couple of things.
First
Stay important to your teens.
So I think in these years they do start to crave belonging from their peers.
That's normal, that's natural
But don't write them off then and be like, oh well, they're out with their friends or they don't need me or they're fine.
They can watch themselves.
We're gonna go away for the weekend, leave just leave them.
You know, it's obviously okay for to allow them to have some independence and to
support that, but don't just be like, well, they're teens now and kind of write it off.
Like I've seen a lot of parents do that and then their teens just continue to find belonging elsewhere.
I would say find how you can continue to be important.
And I think for parents of teens, a lot of that is those tiny moments like when your teen is maybe supposed to be going to bed.
and instead grabs a snack and starts making nachos at 10 o'clock at night and you're tired and you want to go to bed, but they all of a sudden want to talk to you about their day.
Like that's your opportunity.
Take it.
Have that conversation, eat the nachos with them, stay up an extra hour, and just like have that time to chat with them.
Right?
Or they want to spend every weekend day with
Their new boyfriend.
Okay, well maybe one day in the weekend is fine, but then maybe the other day you try and plan something.
The two of you go out and you do something together
So finding ways to stay important in those years will be critical in helping them navigate it.
Because even though they're older, they still need you.
I think that makes sense.
Do you think it's more challenging when they are teenagers?
Compared to when they're
A little.
It's definitely more challenging because you can't control what they do so much, right?
Let's say when they were little, if you did timeouts you can be like, you have to sit here.
And they have no choice but to listen to you, right?
Like they have to sit there.
Or they misbehaved.
You're like, I'm gonna take away your iPad.
Well, they have no choice.
They're little, you can control them.
in the teen years you can't.
So that's why setting the foundation for that trusted, respectful relationship in those early years is so important because that
will remain in the teen years if you've already set that foundation.
But if you've built your foundation on control and punishments and just getting angry at them for not doing the right thing, when they're old enough to just walk out of the door and drive away
like they're not gonna listen to you anymore.
So that's where that foundation really comes into play.
And then I think remembering that teens still need a safe place to land, right?
You wanna be that safe place for them to land.
And so having conversations with them like, hey
I want you to come to me if anything uncomfortable happens.
Yeah.
You know, all those things are gonna matter so much in those teenage years.
So again, it really comes down to being that trusted
caregiver for them.
Someone they can rely on.
Yeah.
Because betrayal will happen.
Their friends will hurt their feelings.
They'll show up to a party and things are happening that they don't feel comfortable with.
Can they call you?
Do they trust what your reaction's gonna be?
Do they want to call you?
Right?
Like my goal for our kids is not that
They're never gonna have hardships in the teenage years, but it's like if that happens, we'll be their first call.
Yeah.
Well, I think that's unrealistic anyway, to say that they're not gonna have hardships.
Of course they will.
But it even if it's two AM and they're like, I've had too many drinks at a party, I I want their first thought to be I can still call my parents and they'll come get me
Hopefully that doesn't happen, but I know.
I think those years will be tough for both of us.
Yeah, we'll see.
Okay.
Many adults.
obviously myself included, have experienced uh significant betrayal both early in life and later in life.
We talked about in the last
episode trust but verify the concept of like you trust people that they're gonna do what they say but you kind of verify and you have to verify by seeing
consistency in that.
But in established relationships, is there really a reliable way to sense deep deception before it causes major harm without resorting to constant suspicion that damages the relationship itself?
That's a doozy, isn't it?
I'm curious what you think before I answer.
Do you think that there's a way to identify deception?
Um I don't know.
Like let's say in this most recent situation, were there maybe red flags, yes.
But should that have made me more skeptical?
I don't like I don't know.
I don't think so.
I think we can exhaust ourselves looking for what did I miss?
How did I not see that sign?
How did I not know that this is coming?
That's the thing, I don't really feel that bad that I didn't figure it out ahead of time because I feel like at this point in my life
uh it would make me more likely to not trust everyone.
And I don't think that's fair either.
And like historically, yes.
I when I was late teens, early adulthood or something like that, maybe I would have just
I didn't trust many people at that point anyway, but I feel like there's a risk of hurt by opening yourself up to others, like we talked about.
last week.
And personally, I like the idea of trust but verify.
It's also an engineering thing too.
You trust but verify.
Make sure you double check things and you just keep an a watchful eye.
You notice patterns, but you're not by default being cynical.
Yeah.
To your point.
I think there are red flags we can always look out for in relationships, right?
So I'm I'm just thinking more in my this personal, like this most recent issue that we've had.
Is there something that could have been done to I don't think so.
I don't think you could have known.
Mm-hmm.
I think that those are the trickiest.
once I've had that happen to me too.
And I think when you feel like, wait, I thought I knew and now I guess I didn't know this person, that feeling is very
confusing and conflicting and can be really tough and to your point it is important to not then be like
I can't trust anyone.
All relationships are bad.
Every person's out to get me.
Because I think in my own reflections on these types of things.
humans are just so controlled by their own desires, their own ego, their own nature, right?
That's how we are programmed to survive.
And I think sometimes we take things so personally, like
Why couldn't they have told me this or why did they treat me this way?
But it actually for the most part isn't even about us at all.
It's about their own
issues, their own trauma, their own hurt, their own stuff.
And so for me that's really helped when we've had situations like this where someone
we trusted or cared about or was in our lives and we realized that they weren't who we thought they were.
It really helps to not take it personal and you're like, this is their stuff.
This isn't about me.
This isn't everybody.
And yeah, I opened up my heart to this person and it's really hard that they showed me.
who they were and and now I I learn, okay.
So now I can't trust this person.
But that doesn't mean it has to reflect on everybody in my life.
Yeah.
Right.
I do also think then you can take
I remember someone once told me this to help with anxiety, like take it as data.
But yeah, it has actually helped me.
I mean that's easier said than done when you're close with someone too, though, right?
It's so hard.
It's I would say impossible to do when you're close with someone.
And not until you've spent a lot of time processing it, right?
But you can kind of learn for next time.
Okay, well next time maybe I'll watch out for these signs
But you can't beat yourself up and be like, how didn't I see this?
Especially when you did have a long-term relationship with someone and you did trust them.
Yep.
It hurts.
And I think we can get really caught up on the facts of like, why did they hurt me like this?
Why would they do that?
Why did this happen?
And that all is kind of just like saving us from the grief of
how upsetting it is.
Yeah, it's quite interesting.
Not that I like I've s especially right after it happened, I was trying to trying to think like, is there anything I could have warned everyone about this?
But I keep coming back to, I think
It happened.
It's just I don't know that there was too much that I could have done to prevent it from happening or to know.
So I like I don't beat myself up over it or anything.
Mm-hmm.
It sucks, but it sucks less for me than it does for some other people too.
Yeah.
And it hurts and it's tough.
And I think when you can recognize this was huge for me, that it's actually not about you.
Like I'm more speaking from my own experience here, but when I realized that how this person treated me
felt so personal, but actually it wasn't about me.
It was about their own stuff that they have going on.
And that has helped me be like, okay, this doesn't mean I can't trust anyone or ever open up to anyone ever again.
It's just
in this situation, you know, this person is human and they have their own stuff.
Well, like I was saying before, I personally think that the kids in the six to twelve range, and beyond, I think even adults
We as humans think people think about us more than they actually do.
That has helped me a lot with like even being nervous about doing things or going up
in front of a crowd or something like that.
People think a lot less about you than you actually realize.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and so when someone hurts you or breaks your trust, it's really important to recognize that that's more about their own stuff
probably deeper work they have to do, their own trauma, their own issues, than it is about you being some terrible person.
I well I mean in this situation it's not like they did anything
To me personally.
No, but just in general, because I think a lot of people listening probably have had friendship struggles.
A lot of people tell me they've had like a friendship breakup, like a friend just stopped talking to them one day and they don't understand why.
What did I do wrong?
Like I thought we were such good friends.
And
you know, it is important to think about, well, you know, maybe it's not about me.
Maybe they have their own stuff going on.
Yeah.
And that doesn't mean I can never make new friends or trust them.
And that's what we talked about last time.
Like trust takes time, takes consistency
takes continually like kind of proving yourself to someone.
It's it's actions.
It's not just uh like a one-time thing.
It's consistent actions over time.
Yes, exactly.
Now I have a question for you.
Sure.
As someone who is s skeptical and cynical
Sometimes.
I think you've improved.
You've improved a lot.
What are things over time that have been red flags for you or that would
kind of immediately turn you off from trusting someone.
Number one is talking poorly about others.
And not just like once or twice, it's consistently.
I think that's probably the biggest one.
If you're talking poorly of others constantly, it's likely you're gonna talk poorly of me or my family or whoever.
I think that's a big one.
That's huge.
People who are a little bit too smooth.
And charming and can like sort of joke or talk their way out of any situation.
I've always thought this, but I'm learning more and more that that's likely a mask
For something else.
I don't know.
I think that's a big one for me.
Is as soon as anyone's a little bit too charming.
They're not awkward at all in any situation
I don't know.
That to me It's a charisma to me.
Like too charismatic, yeah.
Charisma that's a red flag for me because it I have seen how people can turn things on and then all of a sudden they're in a different situation and it's
completely opposite person.
People who are too black and white.
I think if you are so convinced that it's either one way or another way and one way is right, that to me is not a trustworthy trait.
Life is not black and white.
There's so much variation and so many different people and so many different experiences and situations that it is just plainly not possible for everything to be black and white.
nor most things to be black and white.
So I don't know.
I think those are the three main ones.
I'm trying to think for me.
Because I feel like as adults sometimes it is important to be able to identify, oh, what might be a red flag to me or what might be
Something that okay, maybe I should just look out for this person.
Like in that in terms of that, like I don't know, hiding stuff constantly or being secretive about things.
Like yeah.
Of course the I think the regular stuff.
No, but I think your answers were good.
I had a few that I would add to that.
I think a red flag for me is someone who talks so much.
that they don't ever give you like room to say anything.
I've noticed I think in people that talk so much and they're often saying very little.
Like it's a mask often.
for their own feelings that they don't want to share or like deeper things going on for them that they don't want to share and they just fill up so much space.
It's kind of like the charisma and they're very charismatic and usually everybody likes them.
And then they're leave and you're like, did we even talk about anything real?
Or do we just talk about like, you know, all these things?
So talking really fast.
So this is something in my position, I think the more our business grew, the more followers I got, the more
people all of a sudden want to hang out with me.
So I feel like people who only want to spend time with you when you're doing well.
Now all of a sudden they want to be associated with you when they never cared about that before.
That's
For me, just given our work, that's a huge red flag to me.
People that come on too strong too fast.
That is a red flag for me too.
It's like
They love you so much.
Now they're texting you all the time.
They're coming on really strong and fast.
They think you're the best person ever.
You know, they are always wanting to hang out.
Like and that's all happened within like a month
Like to me, relationships should take time to develop.
There should be time to build trust.
That's that love bombing we were talking about.
Yeah, that's the love bombing and I I think that's a common one that trips people up because they want to belong.
And I've heard from so many people that
they thought they had a best friend and then all of a sudden this person goes and like leaves them and they don't understand and then they look back and they're like, Oh, it was too quick, too fast.
So that's a red flag for me and then all the same things that you said too.
But I do think
Over time being hurt, I'm more aware of these things now.
I'll any oh the other thing is anyone who sounds too
good.
Or like this is like a people I don't trust online.
Like they sound too scripted.
They have too many like perfect slogans for their work and they're very charismatic and they're very like
I see that a lot online and it's a great way to build a business, but I always am like, mm-hmm, I don't trust that.
Right.
One last thing, then we'll move on.
Yep.
If someone has hurt me once, like with our kids, I can be like, we're all humans, we make mistakes.
But if it's a repeated pattern of being hurtful
then I'm learning that okay, this is a pattern now and I don't have to keep letting this happen to me.
Definitely.
Okay.
So trust is inevitably broken sometimes, even in what I would call fundamentally healthy relationships
And I think this is from those early years where kids are kind of learning how to interact with each other into adulthood.
What does the process of rebuilding trust
actually look like?
Is it always possible?
What are the non-negotiables required from both parties for genuine repair to occur?
Absolutely.
I think even your relation like
Maybe your closest friends you've had for a long time, or your parents, or your partner in life, of course there's going to be ruptures to that trust, right?
It could be as simple as your partner's been telling you, okay, I'm I'm gonna be home at this time for dinner, and then every time
they're late, right?
And you start to not trust you're not gonna be home when you say you're gonna be home and now I'm building resentment towards you because I'm home with all the kids and I'm expect
you're gonna be here, right?
There's like minor things of trust and I think those minor things, we need to learn how to talk through it instead of building resentment.
Because I do think when trust is broken, even if it's something small, like the person's always home later than they say they're gonna be
you can build resentment and that can cause a big rupture over time in your relationship.
So I think for those smaller things, it's being able to communicate that, right?
Saying something like, hey, you told me you're gonna be home at five and now
One day, sure, that's home fine that you were home at 5 30, you worked late.
But now it's been like four days in a row.
And every single day you say you're gonna be home this time and you're actually home at this time.
And it's starting to to bother me.
How can we work through this?
So that's for the minor things.
And then I think that there's bigger things that can break a trust in a relationship, right?
And
I think what we have to do is rebuild the trust.
And it kind of goes we have to sometimes go back to square one, right?
Which is almost
feeling like we have a fresh start to the relationship.
And we go back to how do you actually build trust?
Well you build it in tiny moments over time when you choose the other person's best interests.
sometimes even over your own.
And for those big, big ruptures, it can take years to build back trust.
And sometimes trust doesn't ever fully come back.
Right.
I was gonna ask that.
So is it ever possible is it always possible?
No.
It is possible to rebuild your relationship and it's possible to still be in a relationship with a person.
But I think it there are times where it's possible that you never build that trust fully back up.
And I think about a lot of people, let's say, who have difficult relationships with their parents, right?
Where their parents constantly betrayed their trust when they were little and now they're grown up and their parents
Want to repair that, they want to fix that.
And maybe you can have an adult relationship with your parent that is decent.
It's good.
You have a relationship there, your parent wants to repair things, but does that mean all your trust comes back for your parent?
Maybe not
And maybe there's wisdom to that, right?
So I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.
Sometimes there is some wisdom behind that to not fully trusting someone who's hurt you, but it does take repeated, repeated times of showing up.
And likely the bigger the issue, the more likely you need some help, some support from a therapist or someone who an expert in that that 100%.
a trauma informed therapist.
Not all therapists are created equal.
And if your therapist is telling you to go back to this person who's hurt you, whether that's a spouse or a parent or a friend, you know, I'd be wary of that advice before you've done your work
your own internal work around that.
Yeah, we've seen that in our lives.
Not all therapists are created equal, so make sure that you have someone who's trauma informed if you're working through a big betrayal later in life.
What do you think is the biggest mistake you see parents or individuals make when trying to navigate or teach their kids about trust?
Well, I think we've kind of talked about it.
I think one of the biggest mistakes is telling your kids like you just have to trust me and
do everything that I say and you know.
I think of So not questioning things.
Not don't question things.
The kind of do as I say, you know, or because I said so kind of model of parenting.
It's like yes of
Course we want our kids to depend on us, it's really important, but at the very same time we want to teach them how to listen to themselves.
Because often kids have
A lot of wisdom inside of their bodies, right?
It's like when we force kids to hug.
Well, I said grandma was safe, so give her a hug because grandma's a safe person.
But then your child's going against their own instincts saying, maybe I don't want a hug from grandma right now
Right, so helping your child tune into their own instincts versus just saying, because I'm your parent, therefore you should trust me and just obey me
Okay.
I mean I'm biased, but I agree.
I found that actually on Sunday we went to your grandma's house, so our kids' great grandmother's house.
And I almost found the words coming out of my mouth.
Just go hug grandma.
And I'm just like I was offended by myself.
Like, did I am I really feeling like I need to say that right now?
For what?
Because our middle daughter didn't want to give grandma a hug.
She just wanted to give her a little wave.
And I almost said, just give her a hug, it's fine.
Like I know how simple it is, how easy it is just to let that slip up.
I I know grandma's safe.
I know she would love a hug.
But you know, so sometimes we do have to catch ourselves or repair if we've done that, because it could be so easy to do.
Yeah.
I mean my grandma's wonderful.
And we love your grandma.
Looking across the lifespan and through the lens of your work, what is the most surprising or profound You like that?
Profound lesson you've learned about the nature of human trust and suspicion.
Trust takes a long time to build and no time to break.
I feel like that's the biggest thing I've learned.
You can build a relationship for years with someone, and if you do something that really breaks their trust and threatens like their relationship with you, it can just be shattered instantly
And then it takes so long to build back up again.
So I feel like that is something I think about a lot.
And I actually think we have to question ourselves too, like what makes me someone that someone else can trust
Like I think that often.
Yeah, and I think that goes back to what you were saying about being authentic and showing your kids that you're not changing who you are in based on the situation.
You're that consistent person in their life.
And I will say about you, I have learned a lot of that from you because I think, you know, growing up as a girl, whether or not this was ever a message that I received, it's just like you do seek that belonging.
You do struggle sometimes to be your most authentic self.
And I feel like I've really learned from you because everywhere Scott goes, he's his most authentic self.
Even if sometimes it's like, oh Scott, tone it down a little bit.
Um but
Who you hear on the podcast is exactly the same as you are in real life.
Right?
Maybe you have a few more inappropriate jokes in real life than we let you make on the podcast.
That you cut out.
That we cut out
But you're the same person, right?
So someone listens to you on the podcast, they meet you on the street, they're a friend of ours, they're our parents, they're gonna hear the same version of you wherever you go.
And to me, that tells me that I can trust you.
I don't see you morphing and changing yourself depending on where we are.
You're just the same.
Yeah.
You don't always express all your opinions.
Sometimes you say, eh, I don't feel like talking about that right now.
That's fine
But you don't ever change who you are or your values based on who you are.
Right.
That signals to me that I can trust you because I know you're the same with me as you are with everybody else.
And that is something I strive to do as well, to be the exact same when I'm doing my weekend polls as I am when I'm talking to a friend, as I am when I'm talking to my kids.
You know, I want to be that exact same person everywhere I go
And to me, that is one of the things that can make you a trustworthy person.
Yeah.
Sometimes that means I say something that maybe someone doesn't agree with and that's okay.
But I want to give that message to our kids too.
But I've really been thinking about that.
Like how can we know that we are trustworthy?
Talking so much about trust, we better be trustworthy ourselves too, right?
I think the other thing to know that we're trustworthy people is are you willing to be honest?
Like if someone asks me a question, will I give them an honest answer?
if they're asking me.
I think for a time I would say no, but now I'll say yes.
That's something I've had to work really hard on.
Yeah, because you don't want to hurt people's feelings.
That's the Exactly.
Yeah.
Like I used to maybe not be honest because I didn't want to hurt someone's feelings or
say something they didn't agree with, but over time it's I have to choose to be authentic, right?
And and you can do that with kindness.
I'm still always kind, but
Sometimes I'll say something like, you know, someone's like, well don't you think kids just need some punishment?
And I'm not like, yeah, you know, I can see where you're coming from.
You're right.
I mean that's a bit of a that's an easy one for you to say.
No, yeah
Like you would never agree with that because you know so much.
Let's go back to politics.
If someone were to come to you and say, you should vote for this person, don't you think that what they're trying to do is like
really great and valuable and it's coming from someone that you trust and don't want to hurt their feelings, do you think that that might change how you actually answer?
I think it depends on the scenario because I have disagreed with people that I love and trust on politics and say, hey, I think it's okay that we disagree, you know.
We can still love each other and have disagreement.
And I've also had times where people are telling me all the things and I'll just ask them questions.
Like I kind of just deflect it back on them, ask them a whole bunch of questions about what they think.
And then there's times too when I know people are coming at me because they're kind of looking for an argument in terms of politics and I'll just say.
I don't really feel like talking about that.
So it kind of depends on the situation, but I do not get into fights with people who are seeking out an argument.
I don't do that.
That's a boundary for me.
That's why I wanted to talk about something different from parenting.
Because yes, of course, on parenting-related stuff, that's the thing.
You're the expert on that.
But even in parenting, people will come to me seeking a fight.
Yeah, I'm sure.
Yeah.
I'm sure that's true.
But again, the people that are trying to seek the fight with you are likely not those who actually have an in-depth understanding of it.
Yeah.
So I think that's a different situation versus politics.
It's a little bit more ideological.
It's more like I think it should be done this way versus the evidence suggests it should be done this way.
I know I hear what you're saying.
That makes sense.
Because a little bit more
Say running a country I think is a little bit more chaotic than the science that backs how parents can raise their kids, like developmental science.
But it could be the same thing for religion or religious beliefs or values, all of that kind of stuff
So I forget what the original question was, but I think we were talking about how do we know if we're trustworthy.
Oh, the most profound lesson I learned.
We already shared that.
We digressed.
Yeah.
Okay, if you could distill all of this complexity down to one core piece.
That one piece of advice for our listeners seeking to foster healthy trust in themselves and others while maintaining wise discernment in their own life.
What would it be?
One thing.
Yep.
Okay, one thing.
I would love to see people tuning in with themselves.
more.
For example, in our relationships, are we taking time to pause and ask ourselves, why do I trust this person?
What have they shown to me through their behavior, through their words, through their actions?
that show me that this is someone I can trust.
What does my body feel and say when I'm with this person?
How do I feel?
Do I feel at ease?
Do they make me feel uncomfortable?
Do I feel like I get their most authentic self?
And am I being a trustworthy person back to this person?
Right?
Because it's a two-way street and sometimes
Especially like we've talked about, if it you struggle with belonging, you struggle to be authentic, all of these things, sometimes you can be the person that's not trustworthy in the scenario too.
So we have to look back on that as well.
And I would love to see people
doing that pause.
I think a lot of times in relationships we don't pause.
Life is busy, we move fast, and we're not necessarily asking ourselves like
Why is this person my friend?
How do I feel when I'm around them?
Do I actually trust them?
Like do we just sit there and gossip about people the whole time?
Like does that feel like a productive friendship to me?
Does gossiping with them for an hour once a week fill me up in the way that I want it to?
Do I trust them?
Because if they're willing to talk bad about everyone in their life, are they gonna do the same thing to me?
Right.
So I I would I think it kind of comes down to that.
And in even with our kids, pausing with them.
How do you how does your body feel?
How did you feel when this person said that?
What do you wish that you said?
Tuning back in with ourselves, I think, is huge and a thing that will really protect us and help us because we are wise, but we often don't listen to ourselves.
Yeah, well, and I think we've lost a lot of that too, because there's a lot of noise
There's a lot of things.
So it's hard to know whose voice is in your head at this point almost.
Yeah, especially if you've spent your whole life seeking
belonging.
And you might even ask like you might even listen to this.
And I was talking to a friend recently who was in another friend group.
And she said to me, she's like, Jess,
I don't know why I hang out with them anymore.
Like we we've just hung out for so many years and I just always hang out.
But every time I leave, I feel bad about myself, you know.
We've just talked bad about people.
I don't agree with their values.
It's like
I don't really trust them, so I'm just hanging out with them because it's a group of people.
And so I I think a lot of people are kind of there too.
So I think the pause helps with that
Wonderful.
Well, let's end it there.
How do you feel after this conversation?
Yeah, good?
Or how should I feel?
Well, I don't know.
This you wanted to have this conversation, so do you feel more equipped
Or do you feel like you've processed a little bit or uh No, because I feel like I already processed it.
We've already talked about this, yeah.
The reason I wanted to have this discussion is because of this most recent situation that I had with a close friend.
And I think it's important for us to talk about how we can prepare our kids.
Like obviously we want to help ourselves too as parents
But help our kids be able to trust others while still being skeptical and being able to question things and
not start out life like me where you're just kind of cynical about everything.
Yeah.
I w I want to equip our kids to have a healthy trust and skepticism for life.
Yeah.
Because I think that's, I don't know, it's a valuable skill for them to have, so that's why I wanted to discuss with you.
And then I skipped over a whole bunch of my questions too, because we could probably have an
A part three of this episode.
And and if you're listening and you've found this to be interesting, then I would love to hear your thoughts on it and maybe we will at some point do a part three
Because I feel like you and I could just go and go.
Like there's so much.
And I did want to end on one note because I feel like I didn't say this.
But if you've been betrayed by a friend, by a partner, by family member, just know that if that hurts.
to your core, like physically painful, it makes sense.
I do think that betrayal is some of the worst pain, some of the worst
feeling that we can go through and give yourself a lot of grace and a lot of time to heal.
And just I know even in our situation, like when
your family member and we found out all this stuff, right?
And everyone's like, well you just have to forgive them.
You just have to, you know, you still have to see them and and pushing us.
That was so painful.
That was like people didn't understand
How Yeah, no one was seeking to understand any aspect of it at all in that situation.
That was from several years ago now.
Yeah, but I just feel like so many people who've been betrayed, they feel this pressure to go back to the person who hurt them immediately.
And so
Just want to just speak to those people who are listening right now and just say give you yourself time to heal and seek out a professional who's trauma-informed who can support you in that.
But I just want to validate how awful that feeling really is
And hopefully as we learn this for ourselves as adults, we can help our children learn so they don't have to deal with all of the same uh whatever.
Not that they won't have difficult things happen in life, but they'll be better equipped.
Exactly.
And that's all we can really offer them, right?
Yep.
And then hopefully they're better equipped than us and they can equip their kids better and Yeah
That's kinda beautiful.
Okay, well, thank you for listening.
Hope you enjoyed this episode.
If you have any questions or comments on it, you can send us an email, podcast at robotunicorn.
net.
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