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We talk about EVs, from the British perspective.
Practical, Technical and all about Electric Vehicles.
Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to another electrifying episode of Take of electric vehicles. I'm your host, Greg, and we have a remarkable interview to share with you today. In this episode, we are diving into exciting topic that is, shaping the future of electric mobility. We have a special guest joining us today. Please give a warm welcome to Justin, managing director at Swarco Smart Charging, a renowned name in a electric car charging industry.
Speaker 1:Justin will be taking us on a fascinating exploration of Dundee's charging hub and a thriving business of electric car charging. Dundee, located in Scotland, has become a prominent hub of for electric vehicle enthusiasts and business alike. The, charging infrastructure in the city has oneest incredible advancements, setting an example for, sustainable transportation solutions, a very an inspiring one. So grab your headphones, sit back, and get ready to be enlightened as we uncover the details behind the Dandy's impressive charging hub. We'll dive into the you know, all the technology and all the stories behind the, the hub itself.
Speaker 1:We begin the conversation with all the sort of soft questions about charging business and, you know, difficulties and, the beauties of the, the whole industry. So you're in for a treat. Justin was, again, very, very generous with his time. So I I would like to thank him. Just, so you know, this recording started as a world.
Speaker 1:We were supposed to be talking about Dundee's hub and Dundee as a, you know, council and their investment in a in a charging infrastructure and and sustainability. However, for technical reasons, we couldn't get the, anybody from Dundee to dial in. So we just started chatting about SWARCO. So this episode is mostly us talking about Swarco, and we do talk about Dante, towards the end. But it's it's it's It's a fascinating discussion.
Speaker 1:Before we start, though, I would like to thank today's sponsor, which is all my amazing patrons. You guys are awesome. If you wanna join their ranks, the links are in the down below. Just another housekeeping item. If you have any comments, any feedback, any questions, suggestions, etcetera.
Speaker 1:Just, email me, take it EV@gmail.com is the best way to do that. I really, really enjoy hearing from you guys. And, of course, if you're listening to this episode and this is your first time, subscribe. Look back at the, the previous catalog of of episodes. We got some amazing things like Quentin Wilson.
Speaker 1:We have Jotun Brompton from, My Energy. We have, I I have spoke to physicist Michael about climate change and the science behind it. It's a fascinating episode that doesn't require you to be science minded. He speaks very clearly and and reveals all the history behind it. I was very, very happy to, to chat to him too.
Speaker 1:So without further ado, let's jump right into the episode and discover the electrifying wonders of the Dundee charging hub and a thriving electric car charging business with our fantastic guest, Justin.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's very, very exciting start that, I think it's just very different in terms of Some of the sites we have deployed, there's just a few unique additional sort of features to the site itself. So
Speaker 1:You meant you mentioned, you know, all the key metrics are are good and stuff, Justin. But the, what are those key metrics? Such a side of curiosity. How do you measure success, you know, in your business. I I'm I'm always curious about these things.
Speaker 2:Okay. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's like other business, I suppose. It's all about the numbers. You know?
Speaker 2:Is the business growing, you know, according to our projected gut growth? Yes. Is the business hitting our profitability targets and objectives there? Yes. But then you look at all your other key Performance indicators like, how the networks are performing out there to the driver community, the infrastructure that we maintain on behalf of, the charge point owners.
Speaker 2:You know, are we performing to those expected? So operationally, you know, are we hitting those key metrics for our customers? And and the simple answer is yes. So we're very excited about how we're performing, both from a business performance perspective, The numbers, but then also how we're performing, in the eyes of our customers.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That that that's a bit that I'm curious about is, you know, how does the, Charge point operator or I don't know how you would, you know, place yourself. But, you know, I would classify you as a charge point operator. I don't know if that's correct or But you you tell me. But the, you know, I I spoke to so many, in in the past, and they all kinda world.
Speaker 1:Things differently and have different goals. Some some of the some of them, you know, just put the charging points and then operate them on behalf of a customer. Others, you know, just least the land from somebody and put the point, and anything in in between. And, yeah, these days, the the the key The key marker when it comes to charging point, kind of, performance is, you know, how liable are there, and if there's enough of them to when people when there's a peak demand, because nobody cares when they're sitting there, you know, in the morning on Monday, and nobody's using them or to, but when it's a whole a public holiday and everybody's queuing up, you know, are the fast? Are the you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Greg. I mean, we we we effectively, that we've got the the different talks of EV businesses out there. They're pure CPOs. So, obviously, with their own funding, going out there and deploying their own charging network, operating it, etcetera. Some of them have those services in house.
Speaker 2:Some of them subcontract some of those services. But then you have Others who are pure, sort of equipment service selling onto customers who effectively own the infrastructure. And then you have companies like ourselves who do both. So, effectively, our our business has has been built up over the years since 2010 Through, the one model, which is customer funded. So, effectively, we refer to that as our core business today.
Speaker 2:So all of the infrastructure we've deployed out there up until now is effectively customer owned, not owned by Swarco.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:But we have been contracted to deliver the network, and we continue to maintain that infrastructure on behalf of those charge point owners. Okay. So and then, obviously, you have CPO, which is more of our that is our investments network where we I launched it recently, 3 weeks ago, Powering Go by Swaco, Pogo for short. And that is where we will that is where we will start to build our own, sort of fully funded charging network. So 2 very different, models that we have within, the business.
Speaker 2:Customer funded, and then we have our investments with CPO, business. So to us, all of our key metrics today out there in terms of how we are performing are based on infrastructure, not particularly owned bus far co yet. Yes. So so you have different contractual arrangements with so if you look at all the infrastructure we've deployed out there, we've deployed over 10,000 charging stations Over the past 12 years, some of them are public. A big portion of them are public, and a big portion of those are private, the accessible.
Speaker 2:So the public charging infrastructure, those will be the likes of some of the major, CPOs out there. For example, Motorfield Group, Osprey, a very big part of Osprey's network is equipment, from Swarco. We maintain we maintain those networks, world. Those networks with our service engineer base. The SSE, another CPO, we supply products, services, and we maintain, their infrastructure as well.
Speaker 2:And then there are a few other sort of CPOs, like the likes of BEV in Manchester, where we would have supplied, that product, and we currently maintain it today with our service engineer base. So so we look at our key metrics, so effectively, our core business and and how we're performing. It is those customers that we have to answer to, with respect to how we are performing against the the key performance indicators that they set for us.
Speaker 1:I mean, this is all upcoming stuff. You know? This is all growth market at the moment, and things are not set a in stone, and people don't know how these things work, including myself.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And I think I think It's probably one of the challenges that we have is that we've deployed a lot of infrastructure out there, over the 12 year period. There is actually it's it's actually fascinating to see the level of focus from the owners of that infrastructure. You know, some are absolutely key focuses, product in the ground, working at all times. Okay.
Speaker 2:And, obviously, your major CPOs because it's their money, and they take that very, very seriously. And and, ultimately, they have specific, SLAs and KPIs with us where we have to perform to their expected level. But then you have other ChargePoint owners. And some of these may be private businesses, not necessarily CPOs, or there may be local authorities where, actually, there isn't The the maintenance contract in place. It's come to the end of their term.
Speaker 2:And for some reason or other, they've decided not to continue with the ongoing maintenance wor- because it's effectively a cost, and maybe they don't have a budget for it. And then we have infrastructure out there, that may not be in a maintenance contract, or the customer has decided to switch it off. So we have those challenges that It's got our badge on there. We're not servicing it for that reason, but, ultimately, if that unit is switched off Or not working, then, ultimately, whoever's names on the badge or even the platform, the back office gets really scrutinized for that. So we do take Not only us.
Speaker 2:So so a lot of all
Speaker 1:the Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Suppliers do get targeted, Probably unfairly, I'd say. In those situations where you have that, no maintenance contract, all the customers decided to turn it off because they can't continue to to operate it. So that I suppose those are the challenges that that we have to deal with. It's actually, it it gives us It can sort of give all the various different infrastructure suppliers a bad name if you've got a driver that's gone to their charger that really war.
Speaker 2:To charge their vehicle, and they haven't been able to do that. They don't know the detail behind the scenes. They just know that that charger with that badge on it is underperforming. And that's that's just one of the challenges that we've seen in this sector. It's a
Speaker 1:fair question when you turn up at the charger and it doesn't work. Or, you know, it'll be great if it just doesn't work like it's the power is off, but the, you're expected to have an app. I I know it's not true as much today, but in the past, you you you had to go through the whole downs of actually downloading an app, putting out details, You know, signing off your mortgage, whatever. Like, the the questions that you would be asked, when you sign up to those app apps is like your home address and your date of birth, things that, you know, a charge point operator should not really care about. So that's, like, the one of those questions that I get all the time is, why do I have to go through all this stuff?
Speaker 1:Why can't I just give you the contactless and just get charged? But the the other question that I always get is like, okay. The the charger is turned on. I can see it running. I sign up with the app, And the app tells me it cannot communicate with the charger, but I'm standing next to it and the screen is on.
Speaker 1:And I can do things on this on a touchscreen. Like, you know, world. Like, these are the sort of the frustrations that people have. It's it'll be it'll be different when it's just, like, completely off. And it's obvious that it's off, But it's different to to what they people usually get.
Speaker 1:Like, how do you how do you maintain that? You know, how do you ensure that the, that's you know, I don't know how to describe it, from, like, an IT perspective, but, like, it's it's it's not that the charger doesn't work. It's it appears to be working, world, but it's unreachable by the CPO. Like, how do you address these sort of things?
Speaker 2:There is a in order for sort of the the the The software solution to be speaking with the device itself. Obviously, there needs to be a strong, there needs to be a strong SIM card connection to enable that sort of Clear communication between the 2 devices. So ultimately, if if if a charge point has been installed in a location with the The SIM. So the network is of very poor strength, and you will have challenges. I think what's really important is part of any survey that we carry out.
Speaker 2:So the SART survey before you have infrastructure deployed is that you're actually doing that test. You're doing a thorough test to understand if there is a a really strong signal strength at that charge point location. And, actually, we we have, In the past, turned down deploying infrastructure at sites where there isn't strong enough. Paul, we've put measures in place to improve the strength of the connectivity. So I world.
Speaker 2:Think that's really important. The site survey process for us is crucial because it determines so much. It determines where power's gonna come from. It determines if there's sufficient power, how much power you need to bring Onto the side to business of to empower, whether there's a strong signal strength there for your SIM card to have constant, connectivity with, the between the charger and the back office. So really important.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I'm strong believer of contactless, being a solution that, you know, is needed. It's in predominantly on your DC charging infrastructure. I think it's important. I mean, obviously, there's a lot of infrastructure deployed out there without any, contactless on it. So, okay, those charges potentially would need to be upgraded to to the contactless device.
Speaker 2:But easier said than done. You know, who's gonna be paying for that? And what we have is some hosts just refuse to pay for that because it is a cost. Yeah. And what's the return on that for some of those ChargePoint owners?
Speaker 2:Yeah. And and that always Just a question for them, you know, with the budget constraints, etcetera, and the cost of actually upgrading the charger to include contactless. So those are some of the challenges that we have on on making sure that there is contactless on some of the legacy equipment deployed out there. But most of the new DC infrastructure being deployed, if not all, do include contactless now and have done probably for at least 12 to 24 months, world. Certainly from our perspective.
Speaker 1:Okay. The the other the other question that I mean, I get loads of questions, but, like, the other question that I often get is, world. Why don't you stop people from charging over, say, 80%? Pick your figure. But, you know, quite often, new owners will turn up in, whatever car that they just had for a week.
Speaker 1:Or they're they're on the they're on the 1st excursion somewhere, and they just have to do 100%. And there's a queue of cars waiting. And, you know, I mean, I haven't been guilty of charging 200% on a rapid charger, but war. Sometimes had to charge 90% when I used to drive a Nissan LEAF, a 30 kilowatt on a Nissan LEAF. Obviously, you know, world.
Speaker 1:Nissan Leaf kinda charges quickly to about 92% depending on the loads of things. So I had I had people approaching me and giving me snarky, you know, questions like, do you know it's slow after? But I I do wonder if the, you know, at some at some point as a charge point operator, it's too slow for you to make any money, you know, with the guy charging the or or lady charging the I'd like, say, 10 kilowatts. And somebody else might might be plugging in and charging at 70 or 80 or whatever. You know, So it might be might be useful to just give them a message saying, sorry, buddy, but, you know, it looks like you're charging too slow.
Speaker 1:You know, you you're you're sufficient you've got you've got sufficient charged. Next charger is blah blah blah. If you wanna keep going or or I don't know. I I don't know what is this what is the solution like? Would you be able to speak to that?
Speaker 1:Or,
Speaker 2:Yes. You know, I think it's important to realize that from 80% onwards, there is going naturally going to be that sort of slowdown, Yeah. You know, with a a reduced power going into the vehicle, obviously, because the vehicle is programmed that way to avoid it from overheating during the charging process. Yeah. So, you know, when that happened, we have different CPOs having a different view on that or taking a different position.
Speaker 2:You know, some, you know, choosing to completely switch off at 80%. You know, some allowing it to go to at least 90 and some all the way to the 100. These are quite big investments. You know, the the cost into deploying infrastructure, certainly, the higher powered rapids can be quite significant. And, you know, the operator would always be striving towards Making sure that they see, a a reasonable return on investment.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So if, for example, you had a hub where, you know, 10 bays and and and and actually all 10 drivers were, you know, decided to to sit on the charger for another hour and a half, You know, whilst nobody else coming onto that site was able to charge because all those drivers wanted to get from 80% to a 100%. That's not good for our industry. It's not good for the promotion of eevi and the uptake of eevi. That creates a negative perception, because it creates frustration, for the driver.
Speaker 2:I think it's about finding that balance of, you know, 80%, You know, is a is a good mark to to to to hit in terms of making sure drivers have really sufficient battery, sort of top up to go out and and make their journey, but also making sure that you're effectively accommodating those that Actually, wanna get to a 9 to a100. It's it's not an easy one to resolve. However, I I think as long as drivers need to realize is that there are big investments being made. And obviously, the CPOs out there, You know, don't want to have their their, their drivers parked up for, you know, lengthy periods of time where hardly any energy has been delivered through Charging infrastructure.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I I do wonder if it's just a perception. You know? It's one of those biases where you see something happening like this occasionally, and you think everybody does it or whether actually it happens quite often. I you know, like, some somebody should Come should share the numbers basically and say, this is how many people actually charge over 80%.
Speaker 1:I'm sure if it was a widespread problem, you know, you would be doing much more media company or even put stickers on the on the machines to say, don't charge of 8 80%. But I'm sure you don't have the numbers, you know, at your fingertip at the moment. But I'll be curious to find out what is the actual,
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, there's some of the big wholesale kind of, CPOs. I mean, they'd have all the data to to, to provide. I think that that there is a balance to be struck Yeah. From the CPOs is, of of course, return on investment is important, but customer service to the CPOs is also equally important.
Speaker 2:I think they'd be naturally trying to find that balance between making sure that, you know, they're protecting their their investment. But then, actually, they're they're making sure that their drivers receive a good quality service. Yeah. So and that's the challenge The CPOs is, you know, is is sort of finding that middle ground between the 2. And I personally think that a 80% top up is is where most Drivers are are topping up and deciding, okay.
Speaker 2:Well, I I I need to be on the road again. I'm not prepared to wait another hour to or or even more to get to a 100%. And they just so you'll probably find is that there's a actually, a smaller percentage of EV drivers actually waiting, to get all the way through to the 100%, unless they got a lot of time to kill. Yeah. And, yeah.
Speaker 2:And you do we do See that. We we do see that there are some drivers that have lots of time, and they can wait. But I think there's a fair portion of drivers when they hit the 80. They got things to do and and then move on.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, yeah, that's good. If you if you if you don't I assume that if you don't you haven't heard about this problem too much. It doesn't happen as much as people seem to think it does. So,
Speaker 2:I think I think I think whilst whilst we provide a service to the, to some of the CPOs out there world. And they're sort of valued customers of ours. So we do give them a lot of attention from a product supplier, product reliability, and service perspective as well as ongoing account management. What we're not close to is the is the data, you know, on those networks. It's their data.
Speaker 2:They protect it. So, actually, sort of how many of their customers do charge to 80% and and leave? Or how many of them actually charge all the way to a 100%? They'll have that data. We don't have that.
Speaker 2:But, actually, whilst we start to build Pogo, we will start to see how drivers behave with respect to, You know, the 80 versus 100, State Farm and the Sox.
Speaker 1:You you I I live in Tonbridge as you know. The, We I think we do have couple of Swarco charges in Tumblech Wells in Seven Oaks. Are these council owned? Or, because they I think they're all they're taxi only, it says on it.
Speaker 2:So that those that That infrastructure will be owned by those respective local authorities.
Speaker 1:Okay. Is is that How do you enforce that it's taxis only? Because I think it's just a contactless payment, terminal as far as I could tell. I I don't think well, I never had the need to use it because, obviously, I'm like 10 miles away. World.
Speaker 1:But, but I do see, sometimes private cars plugging in. I I don't know how successful they are, but, you know, Are they just can anybody just use them, or do you need to, like, apply to a council and be a taxi driver to actually use it?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So they are they were deployed as part of the ultra low emission vehicle taxi scheme. We're seeing, obviously, You know, driving the uptake and supporting was the the uptake of EVs. You know? Some of the local authorities within Kent have also recognized that, We need to be opening it up to to other drivers.
Speaker 2:So we are seeing some of the local authorities say, okay. Well, You know, we've tried the the taxi only. Okay. There's there's some utilization there, and then it start to open it up. So in terms of Tonbridge specifically, I'm not sure as to what decision they've made on that.
Speaker 2:We actually are starting to see it open up, and some of them are opening it For specific times. So, actually, open to the public specific times and then, you know, sort of taxi operating times, whatever that may be. I'm not sure. But
Speaker 1:Fri Friday night?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. That's That's, for for their use only. So we're just seeing I mean, what's key is that from a from a software Hardware functionality perspective, we can those rather unique requests. So yeah.
Speaker 2:And that that's that's obviously we we do offer, that that unique sort of kind of access, functionality, which which helps them to be able to, You know, allow everyone to charge at certain times, but then restrict it at others.
Speaker 1:Okay. And and the, because I I know I know companies like Osprey that you mentioned. I know that the, I don't know, but it's this, you know, InstaVault and a couple of others. I know the our space specifically is kind of prepared to if if if you give them a site, they're prepared just to put in the the charging point for their own money and kinda operate it. And they probably chose, like, likes of yourself to, you know, to, to put some of them in.
Speaker 1:Do you die do you do you take, a a request for like that from councils or private landowners as well? Or, would you direct them to world. The likes of Osprey. Is somebody Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think I think in that we have. We have in the past directed to some of our CPA partners. You know, sometimes those projects are a fit. Others, they're not a fit for them. You know, in some occasions, we have match funded.
Speaker 2:So we've match funded, say, 25% to total project costs. We've done that in the past, where we think it suits us. But then obviously, we have a the the the separate business, which is our Pogo business. Our our Pogo business is they're identifying sort of fully funded, There are opportunities. Of course, some of them will be local authorities, but actually, most of those that activity will be private sector focused.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, of course, there will be some local authority activity there. So I think, yeah, whilst we have strategic CPO partners, We'll continue to share investment opportunities with them if we feel that, the investment itself is more applicable to their Strategy. If if we see an investment opportunity that's applicable to our strategy, then, of course, we will, look to, fund it ourselves. So we we just take each project case by case basis.
Speaker 1:Okay. I I I have also also sort of, like, business rated questions, but I don't wanna bore you with without too much because I I don't wanna overstep. You know? But, like, I I often get get asked, you know, how long does it take? What is the return on investment on the on the site?
Speaker 1:And I I you know, when I spoke to somebody from Osprey last time, a couple years ago,
Speaker 2:world. They said it cost about 50
Speaker 1:k to, you know, on average to put 2 charges in. I presume that that will take a while to, to recover. It's a very long term investment to put to put in even 2 charges. Obviously, you know, with somebody like council Or or local authority, they might have different goals. Right?
Speaker 1:They just want to enable the infrastructure so that people buy electric cars and kinda switch over to to electric, or sustainable transportation. But with private landowners, obviously, they've got you know, world. They might have another I don't know. They might have a coffee shop or or or super supermarket nearby. That's a that's another, obviously, thing.
Speaker 1:But, like, purely just from world. Having having a a charge point, what what do you reckon is the, the return on investment? Like, can you speak to that, or is that world. Is that an unknown?
Speaker 2:It it it is well, it's an unknown because, you know, what is the quality of the site? So and and how much investment are you putting in to so local authority is at 25%, 50%, is it 75%, or is it a 100%? You've seen all those various different models exist. Are you fully funding it? If so, what does that return look like?
Speaker 2:A key requirement to understand when deciding whether to invest or not is the length of term. So local authorities looking for a big investment With a 5 year contract term, doesn't make sense, certainly, for us. And I doubt it'll make sense for the other CPOs out there because You're not gonna see a return on investment unless the site is incredible in terms of quality. I mean, So, yeah. And, of course, you have different return of in return on investments projects, You know, ranging from, you know, sort of could be 4 years all the way up to 12 years.
Speaker 2:It all depends on the type of infrastructure you've de you've deployed, how many units, what the respective total project cost de deployment cost is, And what the utilization is. So there's a number of factors that actually decide, you know, how quickly you're gonna see a return on investment. So it's a very it's a very broad sort of, you you know, sort of area in terms of the the return on investments Yeah. Depending on all of those factors. So I couldn't give you a specific date.
Speaker 2:Sorry. Specific timing, but you you've got a bandit. And it's, you know, Sort of extremely impressive level all the way through to, you know, not impressive and and lengthy. So I
Speaker 1:mean, yeah, I've I've been to sites, Swarco specifically, branded, charges. I don't know who owns them or what the arrangement is, obviously. As a user, you know, you don't care. You just wanna plug in and but I always make I always make sure that when I go to a restaurant or pub or whatever it is that has a charger up up I I always tell them, look. I stopped here because you have a charger.
Speaker 1:I would have otherwise gone somewhere else probably. Who knows? World. But, you know, we've got a charger. I can eat my lunch, dinner, whatever, in half an hour, 45 minutes and charge.
Speaker 1:I I I I I always kinda tell people that just make sure that you'd kinda tell the operators or the the owners of the land that you're here because the charger, you know, so they can put in more potentially. But the, because, you know, we were supposed to be talking about hubs and stuff. And, you know, small size is one thing where you're stopping for dinner when you're on the way somewhere. There's usually just 1 or 2 charges, which is sometimes not enough these days. On the other end of the spectrum, that's what I was about to say, you have places like grid surf, you know, where they have 20 plus chargers.
Speaker 1:Where do you think the sweet spot lies? And what what do you think is the future? Because personally, I I have to say that, you know, I I like this the the the sites like the grid surf where you you can stop, for longer. I wish they had restaurants on-site. That's one thing that they don't have.
Speaker 1:But they have plenty of shops and, you know, things to do, entertainment, meeting rooms, whatever. Where do you think the the the the the future lies with these things?
Speaker 2:Well, I think it's, you know, finding that sweet spot. And, Yeah. If you look at some of the operators, they've gone with more of a cautious approach. Maybe very much based on whether they have sufficient investment to go sort of large scale initially, and they're just trying to sort of balance out the investment they have to deploy. That may play play a role.
Speaker 2:Not sure. But then, obviously, you've got that kind of sort of, you know, 5 to 10 base, for a hub, which is sort of in the middle of of between the sort of lower end and possibly the grid servant. And then you got the grid servant. And I and I think they're not world. Ones doing that.
Speaker 2:And I think it it is quite impressive when you see, the infrastructure that they're deploying on these sites. I think it sends a really strong message, that this sector is certainly the future. I think it it plays a positive role on the uptake of electric vehicles, which is really what we I'm looking to encourage and support. So now I think, no way is the wrong way, I suppose. You know?
Speaker 2:Just providing infrastructure, whatever the quantity, I think the site plays a crucial role. So if you do have a a site Where there's amenities, good quality, sort of whether they're sort of shops and places to eat and and toilets and etcetera, good lighting. You know, there's potentially a really good hub site, you know, deploying, you know, 10 to 20 base. You know? Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's a it's a big investment. It's a big commitment early on, and I think it, I think it is positive to see The the scale being deployed. I think the reality is is probably today, again, very much depends on what type of site. If you've got motorway sites, motorway service station sites. And I think they're gonna be incredibly busy, you know, up to 20 bays.
Speaker 2:We've seen that in some of the the motorway locations. But you're gonna have other sites, like maybe shopping facilities, retail parks, you know, sort of a 5 to 10 bay provision today, Ultra rapid. Yeah. I think it's I think it's good enough today. But, obviously, you you know, you'll probably be expanding that network world.
Speaker 2:Within the next, say, you know, 3 to 5 years, gradually. Maybe sooner. So no. I think, there's no sort of wrong approach. Like I say, every approach works for a specific location.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I I I I personally see that the, the future is is, you know, having a large site with 20 Chargers. And, if you think about it, even if the cars are gonna charge in the future, say, in 15 minutes or 20 minutes, and you're gonna have, I don't know, 400 mile range. You're still gonna have to stop to have a you know, just to go to the toilet or or just to have a lunch. And you're gonna you're gonna wanna spend that time doing something rather than just sitting in the car and speed up, scrolling on your phone.
Speaker 1:And and if you if you think about the, the petrol station model where, you know, they make money actually in a shop rather than selling you the fuel. When you when you have to sit there for 20 minutes, you're gonna spend more money potentially. You know, so there's a the the The, the chances of of of of monetizing it and actually making money are higher. And you can have different type of shop. World.
Speaker 1:You you you you no longer just have a convenience store, but you can have a actual proper, you know, whatever whatever type of story you want. The other the other thing that is often often missing is, you know, is a space just to sit down and relax, at at the at those service stations. But, Yeah. Yeah. Because I'm I'm always curious.
Speaker 1:Like, obviously, the the other thing that is restricting at the moment is probably the, the grid connectivity. World. But I'm sure people at national national, grid I mean, I I know in fact that they they they they've been working on it. What I think what what do you think are the challenges, like, apart from the, the the grid connectivity, Took in expanding the network. Because I think we're hitting the point where, you know, the the adoption curve is kinda Almost exceeding the the the the number of charging points that are currently provisioned.
Speaker 1:I'm sure there's plenty in the works. You know? But but I I see quite often when I, when I travel at, like, high peak times that the the there is a queue on-site. And I I wonder you know, I'm sure you guys see that as well. What do you think is the solution there?
Speaker 1:Like, is it more charging points? Is it better signage or, you know, discoverability, basically. Or or do we just need to have more charges within a certain area?
Speaker 2:I think it says from from from a Positive perspective. There's a lot of infrastructure being deployed. There's a lot that's being developed, planned behind the scenes that the driver won't be particularly aware of. All the CPOs have committed to making some really big investments into expanding their respective networks. So what we are going to see over the next 6, 12, 24 months and and sort of, you know, through to the next 3, 5 years is quite significant deployment of charging infrastructure.
Speaker 2:I think as a as a driver, But you but you're not sort of close to the detail day to day in terms of, you know, what what what conversations are having with respect to infrastructure deployments. There's a lot going on there. It's very active. There's some there's some big investors that are coming with with genuine money to deploy. So I think that we are going to see quite a significant expansion of the network, public network.
Speaker 2:If we look at the challenges, one of the world. The very big challenges and still today is is power, going back to the point that you've mentioned there. So that's the power availability. One thing, but then also the cost of power. So the more infrastructure you deploy on a single site, the greater the cost.
Speaker 2:And, actually, the costs go up quite significantly. So as a CPO, you need to be really prepared, You know, to make a really in some cases, make a make a substantial investment into ASART. If you plan to deploy a lot of infrastructure on that side, because that that will come with some pretty hefty costs. So that is still the challenge and the bottleneck with re with regards to deployment of infrastructure. If all the power is there, And we were coming along and just sort of, you know, dropping charges in the ground and plugging in.
Speaker 2:We'd see double the size of the network that we see today. Yeah. You know? So but that's not the case, and it is a challenge. I think the DNOs in are are working a lot more cooperatively, With the various CPOs, we now have IDNOs and ICPs, and they all play their part in making sure that actually we're delivering infrastructure quicker.
Speaker 2:But it still remains the the bottleneck because you'd be surprised how many sites CPOs actually walk away from because the costs are too extortionate. So, yeah, I think, you know, that that's probably the main challenge. I think There is has been a a a a challenge within the industry with respect to the availability of finished goods product, so charging equipment, charging stations, because of the global supply chain constraints, through some of the sort of key components that are used, To to building, you know, DC charging infrastructure, that has had a negative impact on the Supply from the major technology manufacturers, through to the CPOs. And, and that that that has world. Role in in slowing down the deployment of infrastructure, but not as nearly as much as the the the power related concern.
Speaker 1:Okay. Okay. On on I I think the the global chip shortage, which, you know, I think it's coming to an end. Like, the the major manufacturers like ST and And, and others have, you know, ramped up their production again and kinda get the stock back, currently. So I hope I hope this is gonna be The the tail end of of that, the of that, complaint.
Speaker 2:But you can do things to mitigate it, Greg. So as a business, because we swap part of Swadco, which is a a a large sort of corporate global group. You know, they have really backed us, sort of enabling us to to to hold quite significant levels of finished good stock, in our warehouse in in Hemel Hempstead. So we will have anywhere between 80 to a 100, 150 kilowatt units plus in dock at any point in time, You know, which is great because we have customers that come to us, and they need, you know, sort of urgent need of our product, and we're able to very quickly accommodate those requests. So That's good.
Speaker 2:But, ultimately, it it has a negative impact on on cash flow, of course. And so the net working capital, Is, you know, falls through the floor to a degree in terms of, you know, the actual versus target, but, ultimately, the business is very supportive of us in this in this growth sector, growth business, and, you know, the need to to to rapidly be able to support Our our customer needs from a product supply perspective. So and then on on our AC equipment, we hold anywhere between 305 100 AC posts stock as well. So that if you take all of that cost into consideration, I can assure you it's a it's a sizable value, that we we hold here in the UK so that we can, you know, effectively support the the needs from our customers.
Speaker 1:Speaking of hardware, one of the things that people often often see, and I think I know the answer to that question, but I'm I'm curious anyway. World. We've seen this when some operators, they put in the charging point or 2 charging points, and it works fine for a year. And then after a year, it just becomes you know, the screen's broken or, you know, the colors are off on it or, I don't know, The cable is wonky and pins fall out, whatever. You know, it's it's no longer usable, and nothing happens to it.
Speaker 1:And I presume it's because nobody is paying to maintain it. But, quite often, at at least in the early days of of EV driving, I heard that, The yeah. The the the charging points just don't last more than a year or 2, and they have to be either swapped entirely, which costs loads of money, or the maintenance is is just too expensive. Are these sort of things improving? I mean, you know, if if I think about Charging operators like Osprey, I I I don't think I've ever seen their charger after a year or 2 falling apart.
Speaker 1:But there's been other Charge operators like, Polar or or, what is the network? They they they bought another network, ages ago. Charge Your Car, I think it was called, or something like that. And, you know, those sides are just falling apart, just rusting and and just just Unusable. Do do do you think the, the the charging point manufacturers are improving those things?
Speaker 1:Or do you think it's just because we don't have any, in the UK, we don't have, many sites with, canopies or, you know, the the charging points are just open basically up to elements and not shielded. And and, anyway, what is the what can you talk about in that sort of regard?
Speaker 2:See, what what we what we What I can say is is where we see a charge point operator owning the infrastructure. So if you're likes of Motifield Group, Osprey, Instevolt, you know, some of those pure pure CPOs. There's a few others, of course. You know, obviously, sort of BP will also own their infrastructure. There is there is a A very, very high degree of focus in making sure the infrastructure is well maintained.
Speaker 2:Grid serve another. So because it's their investment, and they ultimately need to ensure that the infrastructure is working at all times so that the utilization is there, and their drivers have a really good satisfaction, or customer experience. So and I think this the challenge for the industry, the challenge for the likes of even ourselves, Swaco, And the challenge for those that have possibly been around a lot longer than the others. Yeah. We've we've, you know, sort of Chargemaster, Pod Point, Swarco, you know, we've been around for 12 years.
Speaker 2:You know? The the the the sort of emergence of CPOs is Probably sort of 4, 5 years. So there's a the early stages they went around. So, actually, a lot of legacy equipment was installed in those early days. You know, even the old Plugged in Places program, some of their infrastructure is still installed.
Speaker 2:But it wasn't particularly It's not owned by any of the names. It's not owned by Swako. It's not owned by BP. It's not owned by Pod Point. So the the work A fair portion of their estate isn't owned by them or us.
Speaker 2:But, ultimately, it's owned by a either a local authority or private business that has chosen not to continue to to have it maintained. So there's only and it goes back to the points I may I mentioned earlier is that world. If your product has a badge on it
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, to the driver, you're the CPO.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Straight away. But but, actually, you there's a huge portion. In fact, the whole of the the the the Econnect network today is owned by hosts. So it's owned by hosts that have different Expectations with respect to how the infrastructure should be working, or whether they can actually fund it. So I think the challenge that we have is that there is a lot of infrastructure out there that may may not be in a maintenance contract because of those reasons.
Speaker 2:And ultimately, it has our badge on it. So as a driver, you're rocking up and you really peed off because, you know, that charger that has got Swaco OneNote is is out of service, and you're automatically gonna be very frustrated with Swaco with Econnect. But it doesn't necessarily mean It's Swarco Econnect. They have the role to play in making sure that that equipment is in service all the time. We do if we contract to.
Speaker 2:So if the customer contracts to make sure that we're achieving specific SLAs, absolutely, we will give it all its focus. But if it's old legacy equipment where the customers decided to maintain it themselves or to not maintain it at all, It's we can't control the performance of that charger. But to the driver, it's That operator that they become frustrated with.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean I mean, it it almost feels like the I mean, the questions that I'm gonna hear from people or getting emails or tweet tweets from It's basically like, why doesn't anybody take all of this under 1 roof and just kind of deliver end to end? I know Polar was trying to you know, they they even started developing their own charges. And that with the the billions that they have, back war backing them, they're they're still failing at it, which I I personally don't know how that happens. You know?
Speaker 1:But, I'm not gonna comment on that because, I I don't know. But the, do do you think do you think 1 you know, one day this is gonna be a bit more, Integrated, but end to end because it boggles my mind that somebody wants to have a a charger on this on their side that doesn't work or isn't maintained. Like, that seems, you know, All all all shades of wrong. And I I get I get that, budgetary constraints might be one thing. But, Like I say, you know, if somebody rocks up to that charger and world.
Speaker 1:It doesn't work. They're gonna either drive off somewhere else, so they're not gonna probably take your business if you're an owner of a pub or whatever. World. Or they're gonna swear out Swarco or or the, you know, whatever the name is on the charger. So it's no good for anybody, that happens.
Speaker 1:Do do you think do you think the, the the the charger quality itself, you know, whatever the metrics that, that the hardware providers have. Do you think that's gonna improve as well so that the charges don't have to be maintained all the time and they're a bit more, weather resistant or whatever. You know, do you think there's still a lot of work in there? Or or, like, what do you think is gonna happen with us?
Speaker 2:Yeah. No. I I I think that, charging infrastructure, we have different types. Right? World.
Speaker 2:Different types of infrastructure and different performance levels. You need to sort of appreciate that it that it's used by the public. Electricity so you you you're plugging in 2 ends, you know, so there's wear and tear there. And the more the more you sort of plug in and out, I mean, there's little pins. You know?
Speaker 2:Somebody might be, You know, trying to jam it in from the side without really sort of taking care to put it nice and straight, and it bends the pins, and you don't realize that. The next driver comes along and says the charger's not working. Meantime, the the pins buckle inside the device itself. You have, I think that driver behavior generally, Just in terms of how to take care of connectors, sort of taking them out, putting them back into the holster, I think is all Important. So drivers have a role to play as well, just making sure that the device is being well looked after.
Speaker 2:So just going back to my point in terms of it, it is a device that delivers power. And some of it delivers some of the equipment out there delivers Incredibly high power. And you you can imagine all these components within this machine that actually, are are delivering and have a role to play in delivering quite considerable levels of power. High power, but actually some of them quite consistently world. Through the utilization throughout the day.
Speaker 2:So you naturally are always going to have, you know, certain components that may, from time to time, not frequently. But it will happen where a device will go down or something will happen within the charger that requires a Service engineer visit. So I think that what I can say is that the that the 4 technology suppliers that we work with have heavily invested into testing facilities, within their, production departments, as well as the quality management's sort of equipment and solutions to really sort of make sure that infrastructure before it is Shipped, to the market is is thoroughly tested. So I can see quality improving. Quality has improved quite significantly across a lot of the different products out there, But we've seen those improvements because of the investments that the manufacturers have actually made.
Speaker 2:And this year have been to 4 of our technology partner manufacturing facilities, and it's incredibly impressive. You know, I visit them probably every 6 months. And every 6 months I go, there there there is there is a transformation of the manufacturing facility in such short periods of time. So as a driver, you won't necessarily realize that, but the the manufacturers of the charging equipment are making some pretty significant investments into their manufacturing facilities, but also their quality, control, solutions and laboratories and climatic chambers and There are all sorts of very, very expensive facilities and equipment to ensure that the quality of their product is good in the marketplace. I think it's important that you you you recognize that, I suppose, in terms of they're not sitting back And pushing boxes, you know, out their warehouse, and they are genuinely making big investments to improve on efficiency within their production lines, but also quality.
Speaker 1:That's good to hear because, I mean, I I do remember, the old Ecotro City chargers. I can't remember the it's a French manufacturer. I can't remember what the what are they called? But they they were kinda in infamous for the, the failure rates. And, yeah, like I say, I think things have improved since then, but, you know, You you know what it's like when you when you have new especially new EV owners, they just expect that everything's gonna be fine when they just rock up to the charger.
Speaker 1:World. No failures, and it's just gonna work, you know, 100%.
Speaker 2:Very true. We we we fire a lot of pressure, Greg, on our technology suppliers. We've Good good relationships with them, but we put quite a lot of pressure. We have high expectations for quality. So, obviously, the pressure that they have from the markets, their distributors, actually, forces them to make those big investments, to ensure that they're giving us the qual But then what can we do?
Speaker 2:So we Swaco is a business of, So the the EV business, Waco smart charging, we have a 145 staff. It's a 145. We're currently employing another 30 staff as we speak just to support with growth, and a sort of higher volume of activity across the business. So we got quite a sizable EV infrastructure team in place, but a big part of that team is our service engineer based. So we have, 32 service engineers world strategically positioned throughout the country.
Speaker 2:Scotland, England, and Wales. These are a 100% EVs that they're all driving. Brandon Swarco. So when we're on-site, we're able to get on-site quickly because we've got a good strong service engineer team in place. We're able to test with an electric vehicle before we leave the site to ensure the charger is is is working and has been properly fixed.
Speaker 2:So those are quite big investments from our business. We're actually very proud to to to to mention that we've only recently hit Net 0. So we've achieved a net 0 fleet across the the smart charging business. So it's quite a cons quite a significant milestone for for us. So, actually, all of our staff now, through, the fleet, are driving electric cars, you know, which is which is a really great strong, message.
Speaker 2:Of course, that comes with big investment from us. But, it's been a real commitment from us for a number of years now to get to that point. But, really, I suppose the message from our side is is that from a from a Swaco perspective, We are making some pretty sizable investments into the operational side of our business, to make sure and that's Service engineers, call center staff. So we now have 43 call center staff, based in in Dundee servicing our drivers day to day. But more recently, in October last year, we set up a second line technical support team, which is a team consisting of about 8 staff that remotely monitor, our networks.
Speaker 2:All of our charging infrastructure is remotely monitored 247. They, proactively monitor, the network throughout the day. So 247. And that is a quite a significant impact on, the network's because, actually, this team is constantly looking at the network. And as soon as, you know, infrastructure sort of goes green oh, sorry, goes red.
Speaker 2:Okay. There's something wrong. They're dialing to it very quickly, and we're able to remotely diagnose on most occasions. And we implemented that in October last year, and we've seen some pretty significant, results from, that that team we put in place. So these are these are investments that certainly Swaco have made.
Speaker 2:But I have no doubt that other Infrastructure suppliers are are also making similar investments into making sure that, product quality, and network reliability is there for drivers as well as the charge point owners.
Speaker 1:Okay. Do do you think there's Still a lot that needs to be done from, like, the, legislator's perspective. I I know the, you know, we we spoke about the fact war. There's no can canopies on on charges quite often. And I know, like, the, Kate from, ChargeSafe, is one of the people who kinda, You know, talks about accessibility, but also safety.
Speaker 1:And that kinda ties in with having a canopy, having a good light so you feel safe when you turn up to, you know, to So, Acharya, I'm, you know, I'm a middle aged white bloke, but the, I've I've I've I've feel I felt in the past like I'm not safe out of sight, You know? That I I I I'm gonna have to run if somebody is attacking me here. But, does do you think that's that changes and also signage and things like that, like coverability. Is it still the case that if you have a canopy on-site or you wanna install the canopy, you need to have a a, different kind of, permission basically to to build the site.
Speaker 2:Of course. You've got you've got to go through planning permission, because of the the the heart of the canopy itself.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:I think it's gonna be used for some applications. Some CPOs are using it today and will continue to do so. From a Swadco perspective, it's it's technology that we've deployed, for a number of our, ChargePoint hosts. Dundee, one of them, down in sort of Wales and a number of other parts of England as well. So, I you know, will it be sort of the the The solution deployed moving forward, I think, for some applications, it will.
Speaker 2:But it does come at quite a big cost. Yeah. And, You know, obviously, the CPOs will need to be factoring in that cost into their modeling to see if actually it it makes sense from an investment perspective. I think it if we There's a big focus on making sure that, of course, return on investment is is is considered as right up there, but also the the experience of the electric vehicle driver, the customer experience. So I think as this world.
Speaker 2:Market develops, if we see that canopies are positively seen by EV drivers, and it actually positively impacts the the driver experience. And you may very well see CPOs start to deploy it more consistently across the infrastructure, The future, the set of infrastructure grows plants.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I I think it would greatly help, but, you know, that's just, my my my, why, personal point of view?
Speaker 2:For sure. I think lighting is really important. I think, signage is is very important, a very clear signage. And it's signage also to to to warn off, fossil fuel vehicles parking in EV base. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, the the the term icing might be familiar to you. So I think that's that's really important in terms of clear signage. The bay marking, the lighting, All of those are of you know, are really important to making sure that, you know, as a driver, you feel safe and you feel Attracted to going and using that site because it has all of those sort of, in place.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, back in the early days of me driving cars, I I would quite often wind up in a in a place where, you know, It was a big car park, and I knew that the darkest corner, closer to buildings is gonna be where the charger is. It's just like you know, it just I just developed that 6th sense. And I Didn't quite like that, feeling, but, you know, that was that was the truth. I mean, things have improved certainly.
Speaker 1:You're right you're right that the, I don't know what happened to them, but there there was a a a charge point operator at some point called Alphachargers, spelled alphyla with p h. Oh, but no. There was a f. Sorry. I don't know what happened to them.
Speaker 1:I haven't Seeing them around in in ages. But the, their sides the the they're opening cameras as as a default on all their sides, Monitoring the charger, basically to kinda, you know, get rid of the the icing, I should say, and or or people parking and not plugging in. I wonder if that if that will ever happen. I mean, go going back to to signage, one of the other things that I think People often ask me is like, why isn't there a there a sign saying, this charger doesn't work or it's busy? You know, when you're driving along the motorway or or, m, a, a roads before you turn into the charger.
Speaker 1:You know, you why isn't there a charger saying, actually, we're full, you know, at the moment? Go away. Or or, you know, the next charger is in 10 minutes this way. Like, you know, we just just simple signage like that. And I I I don't I don't see private charging, charging point operators putting that in, but I think that's one of those things that, I think we'll have to be kind of coming down from the legislative I agree.
Speaker 1:Side of things.
Speaker 2:There's there's nothing worse Then arriving at a at a at a hub, and all the bays are busy, but you have no idea how long it's gonna take before one becomes empty.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And where the the the other charges are. Because there might be one around the corner for all you know. Right?
Speaker 2:I suppose it it's there's nothing worse when you're in a rush, and you really need to understand that. If you got lots of time, Very different. So I've been in that position where I'm in a rush, but I've got no idea as to how long everyone's gonna take this. So, we we are a traffic business. So Swatco is a a a large global traffic technology company.
Speaker 2:So a lot of the sort of motorway signage here in the UK is manufactured by us. The variable speeds over the gantries, and then also the the large set of signs that give you certain warnings ahead are also manufactured by us And a number of other different traffic technology solutions. We absolutely see The need for some form of, you know, digital signage, giving you a a clear indication on the status of each of those parking bays In terms of, you know, time left before charge ends. So that is visible to drivers coming on and actually seeing that, oh, okay. World.
Speaker 2:Charger number 2 is gonna be done in 2 minutes. I'll I'll hang around. You know? So I think that those technologies will form part of the EV infrastructure, moving forward.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Some stage. There there there are discussions and and sort of there's a lot of innovation happening behind the scenes. And and, certainly, we are we are looking at developing our traffic solutions into our Eevi infrastructure, network and solutions. And and the sort of end result of that will be technologies like this that will be very Kind of good display, status display screens to EV drivers. Coming on to the sounds.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I Yeah. Because it's one thing that, you know, when you drive I don't have a Tesla personally, but, like, whenever I drive a Tesla, it knows where the Tesla charges are and how many are occupied and all that. It's quite useful. But I don't see that ever happening on a global scale, you know, with the way the OEMs work with the software.
Speaker 1:They're not world the best usually at software or integrating other services. But just a simple sign on the motto way saying, you know, the there's you know, 3 out of 10 bays are occupied. Like, it's it's it doesn't take a genius to to to put that in. Like I say and then, you know, it would be great to, to see since you guys are manufacturing the chart the the, the signs themselves already. I think that'll be a good, Good thing because I I hear that from people all the time.
Speaker 1:It's like, I wish I knew or, you know, oh, oh, blimey. I have to download another app to find out where the next charger is. Like, it's just It's just all these simple things that I think, if I can, you know, suggest that as an improvement, I think that, that's That's a big thing. So so so speaking of Dandy, I've heard that they have a, I mean, they're obviously in Scotland, so the charge points the Scotch Place Scotland, sorry, takes part in it. But they, I was told that there's a new hub coming up in in Dundee.
Speaker 1:Can you talk about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Sure. So so the Clappington Road hub is is the biggest hub we've deployed, in in Scotland. So Dundee have a number of different hubs where you have a solar solar carport solutions. You've got energy storage at some of their hubs.
Speaker 2:But this one specifically was rather unique. So effectively, it's a 30:30 charging station deployment, with 60 bays. So effectively, 60 vehicles can charge simultaneously on the site. There are 2 different sides to the hub. So we have a a publicly accessible side of the hub, but then we have the the council fleet.
Speaker 2:So on the public side, we have five world. 50 kilowatt rapid chargers. We have 150 kilowatt ultra rapid charger. And then on the fleet world. We've got 100 kilowatt charging solution, and we have 2 50 kilowatt units.
Speaker 2:And then we have some overnight charging there. So we have 21 world. Seven kilowatt, AC posts.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:There's also quite a sizable solar array, with the carports. So the solar actually sits on top of the carports, and it there's that that that That canopy, as well as that solar, covers 60 parking spaces. So at the public side, we have about a 37 kilowatt, generation. And on the fleet side, we have a 131 kilowatt generation. It's obviously that the fleet canopy with its solar arrays is larger than the public.
Speaker 2:So overall, we've got a 168, kilowatts of, generation. We've got so
Speaker 1:It's quite big. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's quite it's quite sizable, yeah, which is which is great. And then we have, energy storage. So we've got 2 360, kilowatt lithium ion second life electric vehicle batteries, storage solutions. So quite sizable, storage there.
Speaker 2:That renewably generated energy transferred through into the, energy storage device. And then we utilize, the energy the on-site energy generation, and we deliver that through, you know, the charging stations. Okay. So the the you said for me, the the exciting, point there on the storage is the 2nd life battery. So, actually, we're giving batteries a second life.
Speaker 2:But just from a stand sustainability perspective, it's it's really impressive, Product provided by one of our partners called Connected Energy.
Speaker 1:Okay. Can can you do do you know what cars, though? Because they're presumably from electric cars. Do you know what what might
Speaker 2:Number of different
Speaker 1:Okay. So not just single one. It's not like a Nissan LEAF or or Renault ZOE. It's just mixture.
Speaker 2:Specific batteries that They that they use there.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And then we have the rainwater harvesting. Sort of addition to the hub. So it's effectively, a system that collects the runoff of rain on the canopies. And it's basically that that rain that it collects sent through a filtration system. And then on either side of the hub, there's a there's a dispensing unit.
Speaker 2:So electric vehicle drivers can come onto the sides. They can drink that water because it's it's fresh. It's gone through a purification process, or they can utilize that water to clean their windscreens.
Speaker 1:Okay. That's the that's that's that's pretty cool, actually. I've never heard of anybody doing that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Absolutely. So so if you look at all of those technologies there, the the heart the water rain, sort of water harvesting system, the energy storage, 2nd life batteries, the solar on top of the carport, all that infrastructure. You know, for us, it's a it's a really Strong, sustainable message. So that's why we're very, proud.
Speaker 2:We're proud About deploying we're proud to be deploying the sites, but we're also very excited about its, sustainability impact.
Speaker 1:I mean, it it it it sounds like a quite quite a big site. It's it whereabouts is it? Because I'm not familiar with, like, with the, geography of Dundee. World. Is it, central, or is it on the, sort of outskirts of of of Dundee?
Speaker 2:Pretty pretty central part of of Dundee. It's actually at one of the main one of the local world. Main depots. So that would be central Dundee in the city.
Speaker 1:Okay. Okay. Then, obviously, I'm I'm sure this was Dundee's, you know, council initiative. The question that everybody's gonna be asking is, like, why aren't other Council's doing this. And how do I encourage my local council to even look at this sort of thing and excite you know, make them be excited about such a thing?
Speaker 1:Because, you know, Dante is one of those places that I often hear as a, you know, as a sort of The leader in in in, in these sort of things, like, tech clean tech.
Speaker 2:Do you
Speaker 1:know of any other councils who might be interested in this or, or working on this? You know, what what of I'm I'm asking because one of the questions that I But I wanted to ask the, Dundee council people is the, there's this, you know, climate scorecard that, I think it's a website with with with us. And Dundee is actually not the first, or not number 1 on on the list, But they're quite high up. Right? And I I I seldom hear from other councils that are higher up in them about these sort of initiatives.
Speaker 1:I'm just kinda, You know, just asking, you know, I think this is the sort of the question that's anybody hearing this would ask, you know, off top of their head. World. Because we're we're here to kind of, you know, sing praises to Dundee, but at the same time, you know, people live other in other places as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Absolutely. I think Probably, there's the going back so that the history with Dundee is that in in 2011, they really started to engage with the market. So that was early on. I mean, in 2011, there are only a 1,000 electric cars in our roads, and I think they were the the gee whiz, the old gee whiz model.
Speaker 2:And then eventually, the Nissan Leaf came out and the Rene Zoey, etcetera. But, you know
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I I I I'm I'm I'm I'm and all that in between as well.
Speaker 2:Of course, I think Dun Dunby City war. Council were one of the first owners of a army of, they had, had a few in their fleet. So they they really pioneered this From the early days when when a lot of local authorities, a lot of just people around us were saying that the future is not electric vehicles. Those were the days where we as a business and as a team had to be very patient and believe that there was a future in this. So but Dundee was, you know, one of the local authorities who, from those early stages, recognized that, actually, they they, You know, if they could really sort of be that pioneer and start to adopt electric cars and make that sort of active transition, to a Net Zero fleet.
Speaker 2:You know, that would be great from the local authority, from an, You know, sustainability perspective, you know, carbon footprint perspective. So they implemented a team. And the team, obviously, consisting of Fraser, still today in that team, and and Gary McCray, who were tasked to go out and really See how they could make that transition. It was a big, bold decision at the time because, you know, obviously, it was There's not many electric car options available at all. Cars and associated infrastructure.
Speaker 2:And I think, it is almost as if they sort of caught the bug. And then it went on to the next vehicle. And then the next expansion of their fleet was electric cars. And I I'm not entirely sure of the total electric car, fleet today, but it's it's gonna be well over 50% of the thought. But they're racing rapidly towards a zero emission fleet.
Speaker 2:But over the years, in those early days, you really had they had buy in from the senior decision makers within the council to really sort of support this with investment. And they've deployed a a really impressive public charging network in the city. Really impressive. You know, for a a relatively small city, they have some of the largest and most impressive EV charging hubs. And I suppose the positive impact on that is that the uptake of EVs in Dundee is increasing world.
Speaker 2:Significantly. A lot of the private taxi owners have made decisions to electrify their respective fleets. A lot of private businesses, have also, made transition over to an electric fleet. So, you know, it's had a really positive impact on on uptake. So, and really, yeah, that's In terms of sort of comparing why haven't the bulk of other local authorities done this?
Speaker 2:I think it's done deep in the really early stages believed that this there was a future for for the electric car. And they they they they they invested into making sure that they were able to achieve that by getting that team in place and really getting the strategy defined And being involved and being responsible for deploying a number of different EV charging projects and schemes across the city. So Yeah. It doesn't mean Dundee are the only one that have really kind of done great things today. There are lots of local authorities in across the UK who have actually put in some, you know, some really impressive infrastructure.
Speaker 2:But I still think if you look at kind of, you know, the size of Dundee, they've probably put a lot more infrastructure sort of per capita, versus other, sort of cities and towns out there. There's lots of discussions happening behind the scenes. A lot of local authorities are having discussions, on their EV expansion plans. So some of those are are are very, very exciting. Some are just a kind of doubling up at the sites where there is infrastructure.
Speaker 2:No. Some of them are are lot more than that. So hubs hubs with solar and and storage. And so I do believe that We will start to see, the positive impact on those sort of, strategies by those various different local authorities emerge, over the next, say, 6 to 12 months, you'll see more infrastructure deployed by other local authorities because of because of those sort of realignment on strategy that they are having with regards to EV infrastructure. So, yeah, credit to Dundee, though.
Speaker 2:You know? And If we look at when we decided to bid for the Chargebee Skadden network, you know, Dundee, and just in terms of The commitment. We wanted to set up a business that was fully committed to so so set up a business in the area that was fully committed to the electrification of all modes of transport. And Dundee, for us, just came out on on on top When we had originally bid for the, for the Charge Based Scotland network back in 2020. So today, we we've set up our our our business at the Michelin Scruppeland Innovation Park, which effectively is, the Michelin manufacturing facility, and they decided to, to close down the manufacturing facility.
Speaker 2:So, unfortunately, 850 staff lost their job as a result. So to mitigate the economic impact there, Dundee City Council, invested 20,000,000 into that park. We had trans the the the Scottish government invest 20,000,000 into that park, but we also had Michelin invest a further 20,000,000 into that park. So 60,000,000 to really transform that manufacturing facility into a sort of low carbon technology park. That's quite impressive.
Speaker 2:So for us, that was a natural home to sort of, you know, plug the plug the gap. You know, we've got 45 staff employed in that facility today. In the next 12 months, it's gonna go to a 100. So if we get to that level, we can proudly say that we've we've like the gap of about 13 a half percent of those who lost their jobs, due to the closing of the plant itself. But, really yeah.
Speaker 2:Full credit to to the Dundee team in terms of really driving, You know, the the the the uptake of electric vehicles and and other vehicles, not only just pedestrian vehicles or Domestic vehicle, shall I say. But, buses and and and other modes of of transport, you know, being electrified, Like being a a key strategy for Dundee city council. But like I say, there are lots of other local authorities, that have done some really Exciting things with regards with regards to charging infrastructure provision. And there's a lot that are Refining their own respective strategies, and more infrastructure will be deployed over the coming months years.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But it it it seems like it has to come down from the council because I know in my local area, for instance, just as a you know? I think they're leaving it up to private investors to do things. There isn't like a strong leadership from the council itself. They're like they're if world.
Speaker 1:They're basically like, if somebody comes and wants to invest, we'll be open to it. Otherwise, we're not gonna do anything about it or not, anyway. And, you know, it's frustrating when I hear from local residents that they would love to have a car electric car. Sorry. But they live in a terraced house.
Speaker 1:They don't have a, you know, drive, and they're unable to charge the car. I mean, things have changed in Tonbridge now, luckily. But, is is is there any, I mean, I I know things are run slightly differently in Scotland, but, in Dundee specifically, world. How do they deal with it? Because, yeah, I presume they get the AC charging points from you guys as well.
Speaker 1:Right? The domestic charges.
Speaker 2:In In terms of on street residential, I mean, the local authority have done a few there's been sort of small scale on street residential schemes applied by the local Authority just to kinda test test the solution. So they have a a pop up bollard solution provided by a different company, which effectively, you know, comes sort of after the ground, and and and it's a poll, effectively, that that you you plug in and and use to charge. But the local authority will be looking at this, on street residential scheme, and we will start to see Dundee as well as lots of other local authorities across Scotland, England, and Wales start to deploy on street residential charging infrastructure.
Speaker 1:You mentioned the the the batteries on that site in Dundee. Do you think that's gonna happen more and more now on the, on sites that people are gonna be the or, you know, charging point operators or landowners are gonna deploy batteries, whether to, you know, harvest the solar energy or whatever or whether it's just to, like, the grid serve to bid on the, on the grid itself and, you know, make money that way
Speaker 2:world as an alternative. Yes. I believe that, energy storage will play a part. World. Play a key role in supporting with the expansion of, the Eevi infrastructure on a lot of the sites Because we're at that place now where we you know, we're deploying anywhere up to 20 base.
Speaker 2:And, obviously, there's a DNO supply that comes in, and and, world. Of course, there's a different costs. You know, some reasonable going all the way up to extreme. But, actually, From a power availability perspective, if you've maxed out in that particular area and you absolutely need to be world. Expanding the infrastructure, and we have to be turning towards energy storage solutions.
Speaker 2:Even before that point, you know, we see some of the sites where there's a world. A kind of, you know, 10 bay, 10 bay deployment, 200 kilowatts per bay, and the the d n o cost is over £1,000,000. It's quite significant. Yeah. It's way beyond the the kind of the banding that a CPO would invest into for that level of infrastructure.
Speaker 2:So even for those applications, I do see energy storage and on-site renewable generation playing its part to support with making sure that infrastructure is actually deployed on that side. Good quality side that is. So, yes, I I'm I'm one that is positive about, These other supporting technologies, like on-site renewable generation or like energy storage. Because if we really wanna go to sort of the, mass adoption of electric vehicles, We're gonna need to deploy a lot more infrastructure. Significant amount of more infrastructure will be required to be deployed.
Speaker 2:So other supporting technologies, like storage, like, on-site generation will absolutely play their part The support with those expansion plans. How are you?
Speaker 1:I fully support that. Like, to me, it's a it's a it should be a no brainer to when you have over 10, chargers or even over 5 to have to have a battery storage on-site to kinda help smooth out the, the peaks and troughs. Right? And have a solo's canopy. Like, it's just it's mad to me that, I think Fastned was like the one of the first companies in Europe to to do that.
Speaker 1:And it was madness to me that I haven't seen this before, you know, across the UK.
Speaker 2:And Yep. And that goes back to my point there, Greg, is that Because what we're seeing is that perhaps some of the the the d the DNO costs are are reasonable At this stage, because it's relatively small deployment, has been not at mass adoption. So it's relatively small deployment of infrastructure today, But it's enough for today's market. So if the DNO cost is reasonable and aman with the CPO's modeling. In the business case, when for an energy storage solution to be deployed there, That will be a challenge because, actually, the storage solutions come at a cost.
Speaker 2:They're not Yeah. Sort of low cost cheap solutions. They they so so if you weigh up the kind of The DNO costing, if it's reasonable, a certain application, which is in most cases today, world. Because we're not deploying very, very big numbers. We're deploying, you know, sort of reasonably lowish numbers from a from a infrastructure perspective.
Speaker 2:And, actually, you don't need storage. Like, when you really start to get to sort of significant DNO costs, Great start. Really wanna get infrastructure deployed here. If we were to pull power from the DNA, a much Sort of reduced sort of requirements in terms of KVA. Then, ultimately, we could use, on some on-site world.
Speaker 2:Generation and then energy storage to to to support infrastructure being deployed there. Then in that case, it needs to be considered. But what's really important is that the business case makes sense for investing into these technologies as well.
Speaker 1:Overall, it sounds like the the future looks bright, and, we're not gonna have I mean, we we we are matching the, the the number of cars on the road when it comes to infrastructure or at least, you know, There is there is a hope that, people will start complaining stop complaining, sorry, about the, There not being enough infra infrastructure because I'm I'm sure you you'll agree that, you know, there is plenty of infrastructure. It's just the, whenever there's a peak, there's always complaints, but that's just, that's just the way the life is, isn't it?
Speaker 2:No. Probably just to close off, I think, you know, leaving it on a positive is that I think rest assured, the CPOs and various different local authorities, are fully committed to expanding their respective networks. So we will see a considerable amount of infrastructure deployed over the over the years, months years to come. I think if you're considering considering to purchase an electric car, you don't understand that, and you think that, actually, all the infrastructure we've got out in the field today, is it? Certainly not the case.
Speaker 2:Okay? So there is gonna be a lot more infrastructure deployed Over the months years to come, it should give those that are possibly on the fence of whether to to go sort of into the electric vehicle or or or or sort of remain in the fossil fossil fuel driven vehicle. You know, the the the the reassuring message, certainly, from my side as a leader of a charging infrastructure business is that There is a lot more infrastructure that is planned to be deployed.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I and there's plenty already out there. You know, it's just sometimes hard to find, but I'm sure that's gonna change. Thank you, Justin. Well, that's it for the episode 44.
Speaker 1:If you've lasted this long, you're awesome. Don't forget to hug each other more. Fight for the cause you believe and high five and all that. And I completely didn't steal that from somebody else, but I just love it. And by the way, if you've listened this far and you wanna be awesome to me, just, you know, just say high five to me when you see me next.
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Speaker 1:Anyway, thank you, and I'll see you on the next one.