LET'S GET...VULNERABLE

Join us as we get VULNERABLE eeeeee!!!!! SCARY!

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00:00 What is a vulnerability hangover?
12:00 Actually taking risks
21:30 Copying others as a coping mechanism
31:30 Resisting creative block with pragmatism
44:30 Creative resistance
49:30 The fear of being misunderstood

What is Biggest Fan?

Jake and Rach talk their biggest passions, pitfalls, and everything in between

Jake Scott: [00:00:00] Welcome back to Biggest Fan.

Rachel Scott: Yep.

Jake Scott: Uh, today- We're still figuring that out ... we're still figuring it out, man.

Rachel Scott: Mm-hmm. We're still figuring out every single thing in our

Jake Scott: life. Well, we're just coming off of, like, a chaotic last 15 minutes, but here we are. We don't need to get into it involved diapers- We're not gonna get into it again

and a two-year-old and, yeah. It was, it was a wild, it was a wild start to the day. But we're here, my man.

Rachel Scott: Here

Jake Scott: we are, babe. Here we are.

Rachel Scott: We made it.

Jake Scott: How are you?

Rachel Scott: Okay, let me actually answer that for real. How am I? I'm okay right now. Nervous system's calming after a little bit of chaos. How are you?

Jake Scott: I'm, I'm still...

I'm at, like, a 7 out of 10, I think. Do you- I'm coming down. By the time- Do you want me to

Rachel Scott: lead you in some- By the time- ... deep breathing on this mic? Yeah, yeah,

Jake Scott: we need to do some breathwork here. But I think by the time we get, like, 10 minutes into this, I'll be, I'll be at a solid 2 out of 10.

Rachel Scott: You could use- I don't

Jake Scott: ever wanna be at a 0 'cause that- that's, you know.

Yeah, you need a little bit- I gotta be a little- ... of [00:01:00] anxiety fueling you ... yeah. You, you definitely keep me on my toes.

Rachel Scott: Oh, so I am the anxiety that fuels you? 100%. Okay. You are

Jake Scott: the, you are the 2%. You

Rachel Scott: will die tonight. You would

Jake Scott: have it no other way, you know? I get a random call during the middle of the day- Oh, this is

Rachel Scott: taking turns.

I had no- And I'm just kind

Jake Scott: of like, "Who knows what's happening?" Okay. This could be a call of euphoria- Uh-huh ... of saying, like, the best thing that's ever happened, or it's a call of, "Well, we have more child poop on our couch."

Rachel Scott: Okay, so we're gonna tell the story of what just ha- It, it just happened ... that's what just happened.

Yep. It just- Mm-hmm. Anyway. Anyway, Jake Scott.

Jake Scott: What do you wanna talk about today?

Rachel Scott: We are talking about vulnerability hangovers, which-

Jake Scott: Why?

Rachel Scott: Well, ugh, because I have them all the time. Because I really had one, though. I don't actually have them all the time, and maybe that is part of the problem because I think I'm vulnerable a lot because I'm willing to share most [00:02:00] of myself.

But there's parts of myself that I don't share in a, outside of probably you. And I, after last week, we did my whole story, the recording, and I had the worst vulnerability hangover for, like, five days up until now. I think it's still with me. You're

Jake Scott: recovered?

Rachel Scott: I don't know if I'm... I, will I ever recover? I don't know.

I mean, it was a

Jake Scott: lot. It was, it was a lot, th- that day 'cause we did, we did two episodes in a row back to back. You're telling your whole story. That's, that's, you know... I get it.

Rachel Scott: Yeah, I mean- It was a lot ... yeah. And it was, regardless of how we did them, I think I would've felt it, just any, sharing any part of my story in a deep way, but I think it was the sustained way in which we did it.

But yeah, I was thinking about it the past couple days of it, and I'm like, "This is so relatable." I mean, Brené Brown, I feel like, coined that vulnerability hangover, and it is the truest thing, but I don't think that I have experienced it to the degree- [00:03:00] That I did the past few days. Yeah. Like, when I first, when I first, uh...

I think I heard an interview with her where she talked about it, and maybe not everyone knows, but she gave a TED Talk where she talked about vulnerability. This was years ago.

Jake Scott: Is that, like, where this ha- like, started, this whole thing? I feel like

Rachel Scott: she coined it, and it's where it started. So- 'Cause I know it

Jake Scott: from you.

Rachel Scott: Call me Brene . No, it's definitely- Brene ... from her. She, uh, she gave a TED Talk on vulnerability, and this is years ago memory, but I'm pretty sure that is how it went. And the next day, um, I think I read her book, Daring Greatly. I read Daring Greatly, and she talks about it, I think. Re- not an interview, Daring Greatly.

And the next day after this TED Talk, she was like, "I felt so bad. I wanted to lay on the couch all day, watch TV," whatever her version of numbing out was. And I remember reading that and being like, "Why would she feel that?" Because I had seen the TED talk at this point, and she, it was amazing.

Jake Scott: Yeah, but wasn't it the thing that, like, catapulted her career?

Yes. Like, to-

Rachel Scott: Yes ... to that- And it also, like, there was just nothing in it that I felt like she could [00:04:00] feel remotely embarrassed about or, or vulnerable about. Um, and so I believed her that she experienced that, but I was like, "Oh, that is, maybe she's, I don't know, this is a little dramatic, like, what's happening?"

And then I fully experienced it, and I was like, "Okay, this is what Brene was talking about," where you just really... I don't remember the ins and outs of her TED Talk, but she did it so excellently that I didn't feel like it could be experienced negatively by her afterward. But it was vulnerable for her, and so she experienced that hangover.

And so for me, telling my story in the way that I did for two hours in depth, and the certain things that, you know, you touch on parts of your story that have pain in them, and maybe you haven't fully unpacked that. Or it's at least not something that you talk about publicly. And when you do- You are, yeah

you get, I got a big old vulnerability hangover. I don't,

Jake Scott: I don't know that I've ever experienced that. I gue- I mean, I have, like, emotional hangovers, like if we have, like, you know, an emotionally intense- That's

Rachel Scott: not the same thing.

Jake Scott: Yeah. [00:05:00] So, like, what is... I d- I guess I'm just trying to imagine what that feels

Rachel Scott: like.

Well, okay. Brene's example is so good, and it's so, like, exactly what I did. And again, I don't really remember the words she used, but what I felt like, it's like you exposed yourself. I mean, think about if you, like, went to school naked physically, you know? And then the next morning you woke up at home, and you're like, "I was naked at school yesterday."

Would you... You would feel- Yeah, you'd feel- Yeah ... humiliated. Yeah, humiliated. Like, you'd wanna do... I feel like what she said she did was laid around and watched TV, and I couldn't do that because we have two toddlers. So I just, I mean, that's when for me, those voices in your head get really loud of, like, "Oh my gosh, you said this, you said that," or I have such a fear of being misunderstood.

Yeah. That it was like, "Oh my gosh, you should've explained this better, you should've said this better. You didn't talk about this part of your life enough, or you talked about that other part too much." Just all these voices. Yeah. And it felt like, I don't think I've ever experienced it this badly because I'm realizing- Doing this podcast, it's like, w- at what other point have we, and, you know, even if two [00:06:00] people listen to this, this is something we're putting out for the public Right

it, it is very vulnerable and very scary, especially as someone who I think has become very skilled at, okay, these are the parts I feel comfortable talking about, and these are the parts I don't. Now, I will say I don't feel like there's any part of myself that I fully hide from everyone.

Jake Scott: Yeah.

Rachel Scott: I just think that I am now doing this publicly- Right

and that is very uncomfortable.

Jake Scott: Yeah, because I think you're so often in the position where you're... You are such a good question asker. You are such a good listener. Mm-hmm. I don't think that you are in the position where, like, you're the full-on focal point, and it's like, "All right, let's just interview Rachel."

Well- And I don't feel like you... It's not necessarily, like, a defense mechanism, I don't think.

Rachel Scott: I mean, you have to- I mean, I, I think it partially is. I, I do think- You think you

Jake Scott: do that to protect yourself sometimes? Like- No,

Rachel Scott: I, I think that I truly love [00:07:00] getting to know and talking to people and hearing people's stories full on.

Yeah, that is,

Jake Scott: that is very authentic for

Rachel Scott: you. I think hand-in-hand with that, I feel like with everything in life, there's 10 things that are true at the same time, and for me, this is- Oh, come on ... this is the case. That's true. What's also true is I don't feel safe. As I talked about it in my story, it feels like, okay, I'm opening myself up for rejection.

Not only do you have to be careful with what you, with what you put out there, but you also have to control the narrative and have to make sure that everyone understands you so thoroughly that you can't be hurt. Yeah. And so none of that equals risking anything. I mean, going back to Brené's book, Daring Greatly, she talks about...

It's the Theodore Roosevelt. Isn't it Theodore Roosevelt, the quote- The arena ... getting in the are- Yeah ... arena. That's right. And this is us getting in the arena, and it's like- Yeah ... I think I can look like I'm in the arena, but really I'm, like, on the sidelines doing a circus act selling crackers, you know?

That's

Jake Scott: really... Well, that's an- that's also something 'cause, like, we've talked about that a lot lately. Like, about just kind of, like, getting in that, getting in the river kinda thing.

Rachel Scott: [00:08:00] Getting in the river. That's what we keep saying, yeah.

Jake Scott: But I feel like for this, the kind of backtracking before we dive into that, no pun intended.

Um, it's, yeah, I, I, I guess for me, like, being the observer-

Rachel Scott: Well, and I also... This is not... When we talked about doing this, we're gonna get to you 'cause I'm gonna see where you... I, I think you have more of this than you think, but go ahead with that thought.

Jake Scott: I just hate that you would ever feel any, any, like, hesitation to put yourself because you have so much, like- Oh,

Rachel Scott: I n- Thank you.

Jake Scott: Yeah. See?

Rachel Scott: I know. I guess I don't feel like... Okay. My worst nightmare is to be someone who's like, "Oh, here's how I feel bad sometimes," and then someone needing to be, "No, you're so great." I'm like, "I'd rather die than hear that."

Jake Scott: You do that to people every day. But

Rachel Scott: I do it in a w- I hope in a way that doesn't- You give it,

Jake Scott: but you can't receive it.

Okay, I know. You do it to me every [00:09:00] day. I know. You're like, you, you... I will come and just dump my bucket, and you are so good at just, like, holding it, speaking into it, speaking clarity into it. And, like, not in a way that feels patronizing or, like, "Oh, poor you. It's okay." You're just, like, you speak so, so much truth and wisdom into a situation that you can see it so clearly.

But then when the s- the page is flipped.

Rachel Scott: I, yeah, I, I, I know that that's an issue. I really don't know how to receive it. I really don't want to. It feels like a waste of time. It feels, like, embarrassing. And also- Embarrassing? It's just like, I don't need this. '

Jake Scott: Cause you need... 'Cause it feels like you're, like, in the position of weakness?

Rachel Scott: No. Or like you need help? It's not a weakness thing. I think it's a vulnerability thing. That's true. It's scary to receive something like that, and so I'd rather just skirt right past it. And also, I just never have. I've, my whole life, have lived, like, take care of yourself, protect yourself, give yourself what you need.

Mm. Don't rely on other people for that. And

Jake Scott: so- And don't rely on other people because they're gonna stab you in the back?

Rachel Scott: Any fill-in-the-blank, you know, stab [00:10:00] you in the back, not show up. Let you down. Be hurt. And I think it's, I'm such a sensitive person that this is... Some people, you know, really are, are, if you're not quite as sensitive, things won't hurt you in the same way.

But for me, I'm a sensitive soul. And so- You're a sensitive girly ... I'm a sensitive girly. And-

Jake Scott: What was that Ri- Winona Ryder quote?

Rachel Scott: Winona?

Jake Scott: How, how would you say it? Winona. Winona, sorry. Your, your little t- Sorry, Winona ... Arkansas

Rachel Scott: just flared out. It's

Jake Scott: how I, it's always sounded in my head. That, what's

Rachel Scott: that old Winona Ryder quote right there?

Show me. Well, it's,

Jake Scott: when she... We saw this thing where she was like, "I'm just too sensitive for this world." Yeah. And I jokingly was like, "Rach, that is you, babe." I know. I'm just too sensitive. You need to get that tattooed on your forehead.

Rachel Scott: I know. Sometimes for anything.

Jake Scott: I know. It's, it's, it makes life interesting on, on this end.

Rachel Scott: You say that, I think, five times a podcast. So what kind... You're, you're just living in front of this crazy a-

Jake Scott: I, I feel like emotionally, I can tend to live in denial. And so my roller [00:11:00] coaster's a bit, a bit less, um, uh, intense. Not intense. It's, it's, it's a little more predictable. Yeah, but yeah, you're,

Rachel Scott: yeah, of course it is.

So,

Jake Scott: like, for f-

Rachel Scott: We're wired very differently in many ways. Yeah. But

Jake Scott: being married to you is amazing for me because it kinda pops me out of my little, like, fairy land in my head and brings me into reality of, like, feeling the gravity of a situation. Like, oh, this is a big deal. Like, this is, uh, this isn't normal.

Or, or like, this actually requires a much more attuned emotional response than I'm giving it because I just don't have the capacity to-

Rachel Scott: Yeah ...

Jake Scott: give it the time. Yeah. Well,

Rachel Scott: there's balance. And then for me, obviously, I need your perspective sometimes of, like, I really- Yeah, I was just reading, Ruby, a book yesterday about what are feelings for, and it talked about how f- you don't ignore feelings, but you don't let them drive the car.

And I was like, "I'm still learning this, girl." Like, God help me not let my feelings dictate the day. And so obviously you help me with that. But I think, I think [00:12:00] specifically with, with where I'm at in this moment in my life, especially with doing this podcast right now, and just with where God has me, you know, I've walked through so much healing and growth in really great ways, and now it's kinda like, okay, it's time to jump off the cliff.

And I think... And you know what I mean? Oh, yeah. Just, like, really go for what you're meant to in life. And I think because I've taken risks that look like risks on paper... Oh, I moved to LA alone. Mm. I married you, you know? Like... Okay. That was the biggest risk of your life. I'm, I'm obviously joking, sensitive Wynonna.

We'll be talking about this later. Okay? I just, I just literally obviously have done things that look risky, um, but they weren't actual risks inside for me. They felt safer for me. And so now that,

Jake Scott: you know- I think this is a really interesting topic, something you and I talk about a lot. Because I think for, for both of us especially, and I think for anybody who...

well, probably all [00:13:00] people, like, there is a version of actually putting yourself out there. Yes. And then there's a version that's, like, parallel to it.

Rachel Scott: Well, we, we talk about that, too. We say it with, with this river metaphor. Yeah, the river metaphor. Are you in the river or are you walking next to the river?

Yeah, '

Jake Scott: cause walking along the bank of the river, to the rest of the world it's like, whoa. Oh, you're

Rachel Scott: doing it.

Jake Scott: They're doing it. Like- I'm the

Rachel Scott: clown outside the arena. Like, I'm performing. I've got my little act, but I'm not in the arena. He's busking outside the arena. Wow. I'm, I am busking.

Jake Scott: Yeah. That's a whole nother layer that- Uh-huh

that old Teddy didn't think about. It's like you got the, you got the, the man in the stands who's the critic, you got the arena fighter, then you got the clown outside. And then you got me as the clown

Rachel Scott: outside who thinks he's in the arena, and he's not. All those fakers. Or as we've been talking about while we're both in this time of really, okay, it's time to actually get in the river, walking alongside it, it's like, well, I'm not in those rapids.

I'm not feeling that- Yeah ... that cold water. I'm not, oh, my gosh, is my head gonna bash on that rock? Yeah. And I think last week, sharing my story, which, okay, great example as to what you just said. For you, sharing your story is not a [00:14:00] risk. It is a Tuesday. Again with the Tuesday You're really

Jake Scott: just hammering that one home.

It is a Saturday

Rachel Scott: night. It is, like, something that you're like, "Let me kick my feet back, get a glass of champagne- Well, I can- ... and I will make this last for four years." I, I can

Jake Scott: be a little self-indulgent. My point is- We'll

Rachel Scott: go with that, yes ... I love that about you. But for me, it's very risky. You love it about me, though?

Yes, I do. Okay. Because I like, again, w- another place where you need me and I need you. I'll keep you from telling a story for 25 years, and you'll make me tell one for 25 seconds when I wouldn't wanna share it at all. But I think, again, to that point, not risky for you, very risky for me. Yeah. Very, very much.

You know, you walked away after we did your episodes telling your story, and you were high as a kite.

Jake Scott: Now let's go to lunch. Happy

Rachel Scott: as a Henry. I was ... I was literally like, I felt, I felt like I'd been hit by a car. Yeah. I felt so tired. And at first you were like, "I'm pregnant." But I knew deep down. It, it felt like, I mean, Brene is so brilliant because of the way she described that next day that I didn't understand at that moment because I hadn't fully risked [00:15:00] vulnerability yet in a, in a public way.

Mm-hmm. Although I think there's moments, you know, the next person it might be I can share it publicly, but to share it to someone i- right in front of me is the scarier thing.

Jake Scott: Um- Even when it's me?

Rachel Scott: No, no, I feel very much so.

Jake Scott: But i- these cameras, obviously.

Rachel Scott: This is, it is the public thing. That's the place that feels very scary for me, is in front of people.

When I'm one-on-one and I feel good with you, uh, I definitely will have areas where I'm like, "Oh, I'm afraid to get vulnerable right here with Jake." But that's more about receiving love for me. That's where I feel vulnerability with you. It's like I don't know how to let my guard... I mean, just like what you talked about when you're trying to encourage me.

And you, as you know, this isn't just in front of the cameras. When you try to do it- Oh, yeah ... alone, it's very hard for me.

Jake Scott: You, like, you, like, visibly get uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable.

Rachel Scott: And that's a fear of vulnerability. Yeah. It feels very vulnerable for me to receive that ki- it do- well, one, my mind's, like, scanning for danger.

Mm. Like, "Okay, he doesn't mean this." Be full of it. "He doesn't care. He just is [00:16:00] gonna say this and in five minutes he's interested in something else." And that's not just you. That's anyone who were to sit there and do that with me. So that's where I experience vulnerability with you, but I wouldn't experience a hangover from that with you.

No. Because I know how safe I am with you. Yeah. With this situation last week, recording this story, you know, we haven't even put it out yet. Yeah. Gosh, who knows how that'll go. But I, I definitely felt hungover because there's this element, it touches on a lot of deep fear for me, which I touched on in the, in the podcast, is fear of rejection, fear of public humiliation, fear of exposure.

And the truth is, in that moment, with you when I'm afraid of being vulnerable, I know you love me. I know I'm gonna be safe with you no matter what. The other side of the coin, when you're putting something out in the world, absolutely, I mean, this is the Daring Greatly quote, you will have people who think you're an idiot, who think you, who misunderstand you, who fill in the blank negative things.

Yeah. And that is something I have avoided my whole life [00:17:00] because I am so scared, um, of that because I experienced rejection growing up, as we all did.

Jake Scott: Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel Scott: But for me, it really went to heart, and so it became I'll put myself out there in ways that look like it's risking it, but it's not actually what's vulnerable to me.

Mm-hmm. Mm. And then, and, and feel safe in the meantime.

Jake Scott: And it's like this, the, I can speak for, from my own experience, but I can also speak kinda for you because I see you do it. It, it is that thing of what you're talking about, that you'll give 95% of the truth. Not, not necessarily the truth, but you'll give 95% that you're comfortable- Oh, yeah

sharing. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. But there's this, there's this brick wall of, like, actual vulnerability that this is, this is the black box that no one gets to see because- Right ... because that is real vulnerability. Oh, I can't trust you. If I actually go there. But, but it does this thing to people that's a bit disarming.

Well,

Rachel Scott: I think you're also describing yourself right now, eh? Oh, for sure. Uh-huh. I'm

Jake Scott: saying this from, from experience- Yeah ... is like I, I, I'm comfortable up to this point, [00:18:00] but then it also disarms people into be like, "Oh, he's being really vulnerable with me right now." Right. "He's being very honest- Yeah

because, like, this is, you know, s- whatever he is sharing." But then, like, there's this part of me also that I'm really in the last few years learning to, like, push through this wall. Mm-hmm. Because it's the only way to actual connection. Well, and I,

Rachel Scott: I actually think, before you go on, I'm realizing now you are much more afraid of being vulnerable one on one, and I am much more afraid of being vulnerable in a, in a big setting.

Like- Really? Well, yeah, because I feel like I... Yes, there are of course parts of me that I withhold in the way that you said. I also think you have to ask yourself as a human what's the line, and hey, I don't have to give 100% to every- Yes. Yes ... person. Yes. There should be- There's wisdom in that ... one or two people who you do share- Wisdom in that

100%.

Jake Scott: Yeah.

Rachel Scott: But, but only you know the line, right? Only you know the line. Of, of is this, is this actually a place where it would be appropriate to share myself- Mm-hmm ... and I could, but I'm afraid to? Or is it, hey, you can give 50 here. You can give 75 here. Anyway, but for [00:19:00] you, I think- That's fair ... you are much more, much more with people in general like I've got a version, not a version.

You're not faking it, but I've got the Jake who is gonna show up here, and then I'm not gonna... Like, you, I go way more vulnerable than you do.

Jake Scott: 100%. Yeah, but-

Rachel Scott: You acted kind of, uh, used when I said that, though. Well, no, I was just like Deer in headlights.

Jake Scott: Just processing it. Winona. 'Cause you Winona. I was processing 'cause, like, yeah.

There, I'm learning for myself I want, I want real, deep connection, and that requires real, deep vulnerability. Yeah. I'm good at- I'm good at the, the first, you know, 75% of connection. But there's also, like you said, there's a, there's a, there's a wisdom in knowing that you don't have to give everything to everybody.

Yes. Because that's just gonna overextend you. But I don't even think- It's also not a safe thing.

Rachel Scott: No, it's not. Yeah, but that's a separate conversation, so putting that circumstance aside, we're talking about the times when you should. Yeah. Where I notice it with you [00:20:00] is... 'Cause I was gonna say, I was thinking about this while I was in my deep, deep hungover spiral.

Like, you will write very vulnerable lyrics. It was dark in there. It was dark. It's dark. It could go back right after this. We'll see. Um, you could, r- you know, you put music out that sometimes it's, it's a made-up, inspired story, you know- Yeah ... that you find inspiration in. But as oftentimes it's very personal.

And then you have to also put this song out and then go on social media as Jake. Mm. 'Cause for me, I think I've put creative stuff out there, and you're hiding behind the fiction, right? It's like, well, yeah, this is inspired by me, but it could be made up and it, there's, you, you can hide behind it a little.

Right. You know what I'm saying? I think- Yeah,

Jake Scott: totally ...

Rachel Scott: but I think then you have to get on Instagram and do things that I know are very uncomfortable for you and promote yourself. Yeah. And that doesn't give you- I get it ... vulnerability hangover? Uh-

Jake Scott: But

Rachel Scott: that's not really vulnerable, is it? That's just more- No

you [00:21:00] feel

Jake Scott: cringe? It's, I feel so cringe on social media- Okay, so socially it's- ... when I'm like, "Hey, go listen to my song, and here's a dance." Like w- who- Here's a dance ... gives a flying flip about seeing me dance to a song? Like, I don't know. That's the, that's a whole nother conversation. That's authenticity. But I, yeah, so it's, it's kind of an authen- So if you were to get on-

an

Rachel Scott: authentic hangover ... Instagram in a, 'cause you're still, I think the whole goal of any creative on social media right now is, is finding ways, I mean, this whole mess of like, I have to promote this. How do I do this authentically? Yeah. Let's say you find the most authentic way to do it that- Yeah ... feels very you.

Yeah. And you show up and you do it. Do you think you'd experience vulnerability?

Jake Scott: No. No? I think, I think then I would feel like, ah, this feels fun.

Rachel Scott: Even if people reject it, this is me.

Jake Scott: People will reject it. That I think- Yeah, but that

Rachel Scott: is scary. See, you act like that doesn't affect you. I know that affects you.

It of course affects me. Not the way it affects me, but it- It does affect me ... but you're able to- 100% it affects me ... water off a duck's back. I

Jake Scott: think, I think now I've done it enough times where I am learning. I definitely have not got it, [00:22:00] like, mastered it, I'm some bulletproof guy. I never will be, I don't think.

But I think I've done it enough to realize no matter what I put out-

Rachel Scott: Someone's gonna think you're- ... some people will like

Jake Scott: it, some people will hate it. And that's just- Okay, but you know what you do, doggy ... part of the game.

Rachel Scott: You, not anymore, but I think your way of, this is probably more self-abandonment than fear vulnerability, is like, "Okay, well, if it's working for that guy, I'll just show up in that skin- Yeah, and I-

versus in my skin ...

Jake Scott: completely inauthentically chase what someone else is doing because that's my version of the fear. Yeah. It's not- Well, it's- ... oh, I just won't put myself out there. It's like, no, I will. I'll just copy some- what, what this person did because that feels safe to me. Yeah, 'cause that's working

Rachel Scott: Because to

Jake Scott: actually go for what I think is right and what I really enjoy, I can't trust that.

But if, if, if I push my own instinct closer to this thing that's already working for this person, and they've got millions and millions of whatever, then I can't get rejected that way. Yeah. And if it does fail, I can be... [00:23:00] There's this part of me in the back of my mind that's the safeguard of saying, "Well, that wasn't really fully me."

Yeah, I can blame that person. So I can blame the fact of, like, oh, well, that was just me trying to be- Yeah ... this version of this thing. So that is

Rachel Scott: fully guarding against vulnerability. Yeah, for sure. And also, I wonder... Well, I, I feel like we've touched on this, but something else for you. Hopefully, this is cool to say.

Jake Scott: Okay. That

Rachel Scott: you're... It's like, and I've experienced this. This is probably a creative fear, but it's also tied into all this vulnerability stuff. Okay, so that's working for that guy. It's safer to do that than to try and find my authentic voice, and what if I discover there's nothing there? Ooh. I have no voice.

That's... Yeah. I'm not creative. I'm not an artist. I'm not interesting, and that's the deepest fear- Hmm ... I think that drives... It- I v- very much experience that, but I think for you especially, it's like- Oh, my gosh ... let me just not... I can't look at that chasm.

Jake Scott: It- I will avoi- yes. Yes. 100%, and I even felt it [00:24:00] this morning when I was sitting down to write.

It's like- Well, t- walk us through it, baby. Come on ... it's this creative insecurity- Mm-hmm ... that I've really been confronting lately, I never used to think was there because I'm so good at just-

Rachel Scott: Charging on ...

Jake Scott: I can just be a workhorse, and I don't think I can do that. I can't, I can't. That's not enough of an engine for me anymore.

Like, I think I've- Not an engine,

Rachel Scott: and you, you and I are two... I sniff, like, we- Well, yeah.

Jake Scott: You, you, you read through it so fast, it's unbelievable. Well, we read through

Rachel Scott: each other's mail now. So we've got each other- Wow ... and then also you're wanting more.

Jake Scott: I do want more because I think, like, for the first, you know, 10 years of being in the music industry, that was enough for me.

It was, like, this drive of just, like, I just wanna prove myself. Uh-huh. I wanna prove myself, I wanna prove myself, and if I have to kind of ride the coattails of whatever someone else is doing, that's fine. I'll do it, I'll do it, I'll do it. And I think just over the past really three, two to three years, I've, I've just been hitting the end of that rope.

To say it quickly, of just, like, it's just not [00:25:00] enough for me anymore. Right. Like, I'm very unfulfilled with that engine now, and it just doesn't hold a lot of weight. Well, and

Rachel Scott: I think you also, because you're, you're this kind of conundrum of you have this God-given knowing that you're meant to do this, and that this is something that you can do.

And then on the flip side of that, you really have this toxic belief that you actually- are the opposite of that, that you're not cr- you know- Yeah ... all the things we just said. And so I think you're finally coming to terms with that fear and willing to look at it, and it's like even if there's nothing, even if that's true, even if there's nothing there, even if I look inside and I don't have anything to, to say, which makes me roll my eyes 'cause of course you do.

But let's say all those lies are true. It is better to look at that and be authentic to that than it is to go copy someone else.

Jake Scott: Oh, my gosh, yes. Well, I'm there now.

Rachel Scott: Yeah. I'm

Jake Scott: there now. But I-

Rachel Scott: Well, you're willing to admit it. I mean, for you- Yeah ... the first thing will be this stonewall of denial, and then [00:26:00] once you break through the denial- Yep

then you freeze, and then once you're finally willing to unfreeze, then you're here.

Jake Scott: Yeah, but even still, like, now that I'm Mr. Unfroze- Mm-hmm ... well, I'm working on unfreezing, I would say. I find myself this morning, wake up, do my morning routine. It's like, all right, time to start writing.

Rachel Scott: By the way, this is all at 4:45 in the morning.

He is sick. It's, it's- He wakes up- ... a wild morning routine ... and he is gone before I even have gone to bed. It's horrible.

Jake Scott: I try to, I try to start writing at 5:00. That's not me- because I'm cool. That's because I don't have-

Rachel Scott: Unbutton another button on that shirt, babe. What are

Jake Scott: you saying? Well, it's just, um...

That's, that's young dad life. Yes. Um-

Rachel Scott: Young. Very

Jake Scott: young child dad. I am new. Uh, but for me, sitting down... And it's so weird. It's, uh... This is actually interesting that we're talking about this. I wonder if you feel this way when you sit down to write. I f- I fantasize about the moment where I'm like, "I just need to go [00:27:00] write.

I can't wait. I can't wait to get in the room." Oh, you, that, that is you. Mm-hmm. "I can't wait to get in there. It's gonna be amazing. It's gonna be awesome." And then I sit down and I go, "All right. We're here. Stage is set. I have nothing but time. I've got, got this window. Boom. Candle's burning. Coffee's hot."

Guitar's right there This leather woman. I am- There you go. Oh, it is, it is like a Pinterest board- Yes ... in this room when, at 5:00 in the morning. If people really knew

Rachel Scott: how true that

Jake Scott: was. I really wish they could know. Oh, no, it's absolutely true. I can't- I know ... uh, some people are like- No,

Rachel Scott: it's, it's truer than even Martha Stewart's version.

Jake Scott: Some people wanna like... I have a friend who's an amazing writer. He traps himself in, like, the grossest, like- White box ... horribly lit l- white box- Mm ... of a room, and he's like, "If I can just suffer my way through it and write myself out of this room." And Jake's like- And I am the opposite of that ... let me- I need a cabin in the woods that's designed by every Pinterest girl.

I need, uh, like, it has to be perfect. This is not a

Rachel Scott: male version. This is the female version of creativity. Anyway, I sit down- Anyway, so you sit down in your perfection ... I

Jake Scott: sit down in, in my perfect [00:28:00] little cozy cabin, and I just find my brain avoiding it at all costs. 'Cause you're

Rachel Scott: scared.

Jake Scott: Yeah, I'm scared. I'm scared to, to, to dive into...

Yeah, writing is such a weird thing because you really are, like, looking into the dark for something that's not there. Mm-hmm. And so- Well, and

Rachel Scott: it's you, what you do- Mm ... that you should never do, what we both do is... Well, my s- talent as a writer, creative person, is on the line right now. Yes. It's like, if this- I am terrible- Yeah

if nothing comes from this. Exactly, which is, which is a horrible way to go about it- Yeah ... in something that you're working on. But that voice is still there of, like, "Okay, let's see what you got today, 'cause if not, you should quit tomorrow and-"

Jake Scott: 100%, and it's like, oh, well, you suck now. Yeah. And you should quit, and you should stop doing this.

And, like, you're, you got lucky l- a couple times ago. Not gonna happen again. Right. You're not actually talented. You were just copying someone else. And so, like, that's, for me, like you said, that my- It's your cascade ... my fear is that I'm going to, to [00:29:00] look at the most, the deepest, most authentic part of who I am as an artist and what I feel like God has given me to say and make and realize that it's not very good.

Yep. Or it's not good enough. And, and that, to me- Yeah, that's your big

Rachel Scott: thing. It's good, but it's not gonna cut it. It's fine. Mm-hmm.

Jake Scott: You know? And, and, like, I'll put it out, and I, I feel so, like... It's so, like, deep and sonically, I feel so proud of it. And it's like, oh man, this is, like, my, this is what I feel like right now is the, my best work that I can do right now.

And people are kinda like, "Yeah, all right, it's okay. It's fine."

Rachel Scott: Yeah, and so your drug is I'd rather copy and somehow find excellence than put something out that's me, than mediocre. Mediocre, I mean. Yeah.

Jake Scott: Historically, yeah, it's been my m- But I don't... And what's funny

Rachel Scott: is I feel like your best music, I mean, hello, we all already know what I'm gonna say.

It always comes from the authentic place versus this, like, you're not copying, but, but not, "Oh, I'll just, I'll just, I can do that. I'll just do my version of that." Right. And, and that is where you're gonna find mediocre.

Jake Scott: That's, and [00:30:00] I think that's the thing is, like, I'll be inspired by something, and I'm like, ooh, I like that.

Maybe that's, that's my thing. Maybe I can just piggyback off of that- Yes ... and kinda do my version of it rather than doing the hard work and doing, honestly, the scarier work, which is like- My instinct is that I want a violin and a banjo here on this part of the song. Yeah. And maybe this person who I'm fan- fantasizing is actually gonna even listen to this, but they're judging me.

They're scoffing at me. They're saying, "Pfft, for real, bro? That's not cool." Mm-hmm. Yep. And, and I have to be able to just finally... And I think with this new album that I'm making right now, is I'm really, really, really trying to push myself to say, like, "Would I want to listen to this?" And if the answer is no, then that needs to be the, the red flag of saying, "Stop," and- The red

Rachel Scott: flag, but also, honey, you have to, like, stop judging as you're going.

Because you're gonna have to get through the, the average, and the [00:31:00] crap, and the bad, and all of the gamut to find that gold that's there. But you're just not willing to do that because the second you hit bad or average, you're like, "Well, I'm not staying here. I gotta get back to doing something that is that immediate drug."

Which, okay, I can, you know... This is your, your best and worst qualities. You're so talented that you can do a really good version of something that's false to you. Mm. Because you're just a great musician. But instead- Wow ... the journey you're on now- Thank you. See, he can receive that all day. He is ready. I can receive

Jake Scott: it, but I'm also inside being like, "Yeah, of course you're saying

Rachel Scott: that."

Ugh. I just would never lie to you, 'cause I would rather you do something else you're better at if you weren't that good at this. Listen, that's just the truth. It is. Um, so I... You, you don't, you know... And now you're on this journey, right? You're not, you're not stopping at the beginning anymore, but for a long time, I do think it's part of the creative work is to get through a lot of bad, and that's not just one time.

100%. That's forever. But I think that journey's been too scary for you 'cause you're afraid at the end of the rainbow is just mud, you know? [00:32:00] Well, and

Jake Scott: I feel, I feel like, you know, I've heard several other people say this, so I'm not... This isn't an original thought, but like you- Is it Brene Brown? It's, it's not Bre- Breneial Scott.

You idiot. Um, actually, my, my, like, idol, John Mayer, I heard him say this, like, "You'll never be able to write a good song until you write a bad song." Yes. I

Rachel Scott: was just thinking about how you quote him. Yeah. You love to quote that. I love it, but I hate the process. That's up on your Pinterest board and above the desk, but then the second you sit down...

Oh, and this is what you'll do too. Actually, we both do this, but we come at it from opposite angles. Rather than sit in that vulnerable place of, "I have nothing to say right now. I have no inspiration." You can suck. "I'm gonna sit here for an hour and try to write, even if nothing comes," you'll find some tangible task you can do, and you will charge at that thing for-

Jake Scott: I will

Rachel Scott: I mean, like a bull in a china shop. It's crazy. And everything's shattering, and you're like- It is crazy ... "But I got the

Jake Scott: grocery list written." It's cra- yeah, it's crazy. But like, I f- and I even saw myself doing it this morning. Like, my brain in those moments is, like, so subconsciously- Desperately [00:33:00] trying to find something that I can- Yeah

see progress in. And so yeah, I'll- Which is human also ... I'll start m- like doing a, uh, like our tax spreadsheet, which- Which is

Rachel Scott: your worst nightmare. Exactly. I can't think of something- You're probably gonna make us- ... I'd rather do less ... you're gonna get us arrested. And I'm not gonna do it right. Don't even do that please anymore.

But instead

Jake Scott: of like, okay, you're sitting down, you have this window of time to, to work, and my... I feel everything in my body trying to resist the thing that I love doing more than anything else. But I think this is also something to say to, to any, like, writer, artist, whoever's, if anyone's watching this, that, like, even people who love what they do so much, there are moments where it's like their least favorite thing to do in the world.

Oh. Because it's terrifying. And, and like I sit down, writing s- writing music to me still is, is like, when you hit an idea and you feel that moment where it's like, "Ooh- Mm-hmm ... this is, what is this?" That to me is like, is like this euphoric feeling that I will never, ever get tired of. It hasn't gotten old still.[00:34:00]

But when you are not really getting there, it's my least favorite thing to do. I'm like, I couldn't think of something I'd rather do less right now than to sit here and bang my head against the wall. And, and- Coming up with- Yes ... crappy ideas.

Rachel Scott: But I do think cut to 5, 10, 20 years from now, as, because what is making that so very hard on you is the things that are still caught up in it that shouldn't be, which is, "Well, why am I doing this?

This is pointless. W- I'm not good at this. I'm..." All this self-doubt, where as you evolve and you grow in, in this, in this journey, you'll be able to... Wisdom will show you, this is just part of the process, and there's actually, this part actually makes the other part more beautiful and, and it's, both are necessary.

But right now, you're still in the phase where it's really hard because you're still learning how to unwind your worth from that. I was gonna say, yeah. And un- and unwind your id- well, and your identity isn't in what you do, period. But not only has your identity been wrapped up in it, but your i- your identity in, like, your passing or [00:35:00] failing based off how the morning's going.

I mean, you're gonna- Yeah ... you're gonna die in a week. You know? But your, I, I- Yeah ... don't think it's always going to be so hard, and I can relate. I, I know. Uh, like you said, every creative person knows what you're talking about. I think this is uniquely hard for you because, this is another, it's either Brene Brown or Elizabeth Gilbert.

Man, pregnancy brain has taken me over. It could've been Cyndie Kirkendoll, my mom. Your motivational speakers are, are mixed up. I, my girlies are all in here somewhere. Cyndie. Aunt Cyndie's got it. But one of them said, and I need to remind myself this as I go, as I reflect on my own vulnerability hangover about ex- sharing my story.

She said, oh, don't butcher this, Rachel. You got it, girl. She was like- You got this It's rejection is, a- and, and this is very paraphrased. Putting yourself out there and being rejected is hard, but what's worse is putting yourself out there and being universally praised because then you become addicted to that.

Jake Scott: Mm, mm-hmm.

Rachel Scott: And then all of a sudden you're on a, you're on... The rejection won't kill you, but being addicted [00:36:00] to that praise will take you-

Jake Scott: Destroy you ... destroy

Rachel Scott: you. And I think for you, for a long time you could get by with doing it the other way, and it felt great, and you weren't even aware that you were doing it any other way.

And you had your perfect boxes, and everything was good. And I'm saying this to myself too because I also got caught up in that of like, "This is working. I'm not being hurt. I'm not being rejected. I know how to present myself." And then as those, as it stops working or as God gets ahold of you or you wake, you wake up and what Phil, all of that happens, it gets way harder before it gets better.

But it is so much better to be on the other side of that because none of that was real. Mm-hmm. Or it was partially real but really driven by-

Jake Scott: Yeah ...

Rachel Scott: needing to be accepted and loved and, and all these things that go away.

Jake Scott: It's, it's the riverbank. It's, it's, you're not actually- It's a

Rachel Scott: poisonous riverbank ... in the river.

There's, the snakes are actually on the s- on there. They're not in the river. But you know what I'm saying? Yes. It's just like,

Jake Scott: it's, it's this placebo effect of you're tricking yourself into thinking you're actually being, like, you're really going for it. You're really putting yourself out there. You're [00:37:00] really being vulnerable when actually you've just chosen a really safe parallel-

Rachel Scott: Yes

Jake Scott: that you can't truly get

Rachel Scott: hurt. What was that, what was that thing where you saw a shadow artist? Yeah. I mean, that's, that's in one of those books too. It's, it's, it's a

Jake Scott: shadow artist thing. It's, I think that was the artist's way thing. Uh-huh. But it, for me, that's what I'm having to come up with all the time, and I see it in both of our lives play out as we pursue what we're pursuing.

It's just like we will, we won't actually... We'll, we'll go 90%, but we won't actually go all the way. I know. And it's time for us to fricking jump in. I know.

Rachel Scott: Well, okay. Uh, two things come to mind as you say that. One, I wanted to circle back before I... One was about me, one was about you. I wanna circle back to the you one before I bring it back home to mama.

Jake Scott: Well, I have questions for mama.

Rachel Scott: Okay. You, before we got into the work side of it for you, I think one other area where, as your wife, I can see your fear of vulnerability is when you're getting to know new friends. And if you f- Gosh,

Jake Scott: tell me more.

Rachel Scott: If you feel... It's not everyone. If you feel comfortable truly right away, you're good to go.

But it's like there's that... I, and I don't quite have the words for it, but you know what I'm talking about. [00:38:00] I'm like, "Oh, this is the Jake that isn't... He's got the walls up. He's got the walls up and-" Like,

Jake Scott: because I, you feel like I'm not being authentic? Or I'm putting on?

Rachel Scott: I don't think you ever fake it actually at all.

You don't put on. You disappear.

Jake Scott: Like I check out? You

Rachel Scott: check out. Yeah. And it's because you don't know, it's harder to show up because you might not know how to connect with this person- Yeah ... or fully get them. And so rather than showing up, again, this is, if you're getting to know someone, you know, you don't need to be like, "Hello, here's my sob story," but there's a way to show up a- Vulnerably that, or authentically, whatever- Yeah

that isn't walled up. But that's another area I think that you need to go do some, you know, little- ... journaling about.

Jake Scott: Go get in a dark closet somewhere. Yeah.

Rachel Scott: But you know, you know what I'm saying. That's another area- I do ... for you that I think vulnerability. I do. It's like I don't know how to gauge this, so I'm gonna put the wall up, check out.

Yeah. Or just not fully be yourself.

Jake Scott: Yeah. It's a, it's a, uh, you've pointed out to me over the past few years is like it is definitely a f- probably self-protection mechanism- Yeah ... of, I mean, [00:39:00] especially in a group situation sometimes where like I'm not a small personality, but if I feel like I have-

Rachel Scott: I've just never heard you say that.

I'm, would you say I'm- 26 years married and I've never- Would you- ... heard you say that Would you

Jake Scott: describe me as a small personality? Or like a wallflower?

Rachel Scott: Never would I describe you as that. However, w- the opposite being big personality, you're, you're, I would say, I, we all know what comes to mind for that. I wouldn't describe you as that either.

I would describe you as like- Yeah ... you are very magnetic, and fun, and you draw people in. Hot. Hot. Yeah, hot. And when you turn that off, I'm like, "Well, where did the light go?" Yeah. It, it- Your light is not shining bright or elsewhere. I want it to shine in this room right now. It's

Jake Scott: because it's, I see it like I don't-

Rachel Scott: Can I have a sip

Jake Scott: of that?

Yeah, yeah. I don't wanna fight, I don't wanna fight for the, to get a word, you know? I don't, I don't wanna be the guy who like- Well, that's, mm, that's what you're telling

Rachel Scott: yourself ...

Jake Scott: if there's, if... Ooh, okay. But th- this is how I see it play out is like I, if people are kind of like r- on a [00:40:00] roll, and they're, they're like, okay, they're gonna kinda be the drivers of this conversation, I feel-

Rachel Scott: You're not gonna shove your way in

I, I feel, yeah, I

Jake Scott: feel like it a, like I have this kind of warped mentality that almost shows more confidence to be- Okay ... fine with saying less. But so do you

Rachel Scott: see how that's an act? You're deciding- Yes ... this is how I'll be something that I'm not gonna be like that, so I'll be like this. Rather than just being.

Jake Scott: Right. And, and I do feel myself sometimes just kind of being like, "Well, I'm not gonna get a word in here, so I'm just gonna kinda-"

Rachel Scott: And you don't have t- ... chill ... the answer to this is not to shove your way in, but it is, it's like there's a version in this world where you're still showing up, but you're not, you're not being, shoving your way in, which is not you.

And you're also not like, "Well, I'll just be Mr. Cool, and I'm so much cooler 'cause I'm not-" Okay, okay,

Jake Scott: hold up. You just made that way worse. That's not what I said.

Rachel Scott: Mr., Mr., Mr., um- I'd, I'd

Jake Scott: rather be, like if I don't have an opinion on a, on a, on a topic- Yeah, but you know what I'm saying. I do know what you're saying.

I check out because sometimes- And you

Rachel Scott: already just admitted two minutes [00:41:00] ago, I'll, I'll have it, I'll have it flash back in this- ... segment of the podcast, that you, that you do make kind of an active decision that I'd rather not be that, so I'll be this. Instead of, again, just being. Not in the

Jake Scott: moment. It's subconscious.

Oh, honey, of course it's subconscious. I think it's, this is, this is young Jake. It's not for attention

Rachel Scott: or something. It's just not fully you either.

Jake Scott: Well, also, I will just fly this flag, and I'm, I'm growing out of this. I sometimes once, when things don't- super affect me personally, I have a hard time caring as much as I should.

And that is super underdeveloped part of me that I am actively working on. It's also

Rachel Scott: just human. I hear you. No,

Jake Scott: mine is very underdeveloped in the sense of, like, empathy, connection is- You have empathy ... caring about things that don't directly affect you.

Rachel Scott: Right. Okay. If, if some stranger or person you didn't know was c- was emotional in front of you, having an experience, you would connect to that?

Yes. You, if someone is like, "I just am so passionate about, you know, drill team and, and- X, Y, Z. Yes. [00:42:00] Then X, Y, Z. X, Y, Z. Then you- Drill team ... you have a hard time investing, which is human. But all that to say, clearly, we all have our version of this, our version of it socially with people, and that's just where I, I noticed, you know?

Yeah. And it went, went way, you know, you're ... I think you're being a little hard on yourself, if I'm being real. But- Well, you're just ...

Jake Scott: I, I watch you in those situations, and I genuinely, I'm not just sucking up to you right now. Like, I genuinely marvel, and I'm like, "Man, I know that she probably doesn't have super strong opinions about the topic that we're talking about right now, but she's just in the deep end right...

She's going for this. She is connecting with this person. She's meeting them where they're at, and she sounds incredibly smart talking about it." And I'm sitting over here going like, "I, I don't know. And to be honest- Yeah ... I don't really care."

Rachel Scott: I guess for me, I, if something comes naturally to me, I don't count it as some win for me.

I'm like, "That's just how..." I was raised by a lawyer and a news reporter, so I was wired to ask questions and to be [00:43:00] interested in topics. That's fair. That's fair. And it's just part of my personality and DNA, so it doesn't feel like some effort. I think the things that make me feel prouder when we, when we, as people, okay, this isn't natural to me, but I'm going to do it because I want to, I want to

Not, okay, not natural meaning don't fake it, but, but I w- you know, I wanna be the kinda person who's interested in a story, or I wanna be the kind of person who X, Y, Z. And, and going that, 'cause that's just like saying, "Oh, my gosh, the way you play the guitar, that's just natural to you." You know? You don't even have to think about it.

Jake Scott: Sure. Yeah, it is, it's a superpower of yours. You're just, it... I can see that it's not, you're not thinking about it at all. It is just so innate- Right ... it's

Rachel Scott: in you, yeah And so again, though, same thing as the music creative conversation for you. It's not about you becoming that. It's about what's your version of showing up.

Jake Scott: Yeah.

Rachel Scott: You know? True. Because you don't have to go be girly girl over here. You can just, just be you. And I've seen you, as we've talked about it, when the wall is down, and you're not- Mm-hmm ... fighting for attention, but you're not disappearing either. Yeah. You're just [00:44:00] showing up in ways that feel real to you.

So this is, this is- True ... all in progress, but I just could not let the time go without calling you out on that, you know? Well,

Jake Scott: that's why we're here. We're here. This is, this, this public forum is for- Yes ... Rachel to call me out publicly. Okay. Well, I think

Rachel Scott: calling out as well- I, I have a question for you. Well, okay.

Go ahead. I was gonna say something too. You go. No, you go first. No, you go. Well, I'll say it and then tell me if this is the field that the question is in. 'Cause the second thing I was gonna say- Was back to my, um, hangover, but now it's gone, so you asked me the question, maybe it'll start up.

Jake Scott: My mind was back to your hangover too.

I

Rachel Scott: had a feeling we were gonna shoom- Yeah,

Jake Scott: this will come back. But, like, I'm curious, given the c- You

Rachel Scott: ever look down, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I'm pregnant." Yeah, earlier. I literally just for a second was like, "Whoa, what did I do?" Earlier in this podcast. I'm so pregnant too, oh my gosh. Okay, go. Yeah, yeah,

Jake Scott: yeah. We, um...

I was thinking about, like, just, just the creative resistance.

Rachel Scott: Oh, yeah.

Jake Scott: And I'm like, "Yo, yo, Rach."

Rachel Scott: Uh-huh. Let's

Jake Scott: talk about that for you. What does that look like? Because [00:45:00] lovingly-

Rachel Scott: So here I am being called out. Go on ... I

Jake Scott: see it.

Rachel Scott: Yeah, of course you see it. See it in you. I'm not in denial. Well, the- What does

Jake Scott: that look like for you?

I know what it looks like for me.

Rachel Scott: I don't think I experience it with writing like you do, except for this, we talked about it in the last, my story episode.

Jake Scott: Well, and I wonder if this script that you're on right now- Yeah ... because it is such an authentic- It's, yeah ... thing.

Rachel Scott: It's very... Oh, that is why. It's very personal.

So for me in the past, writing, I don't put the pressure on writing that you put pressure on writing. I don't feel like- You don't

Jake Scott: find your worth in it as much.

Rachel Scott: No. With acting, I used to feel that. Like, I'd get an audition, and I knew I could do it, but then you almost think too hard about it- Yeah ... and you just...

And then my, "Oh my gosh, I'm not good at this. What am I doing?" You know, that same thing, I felt there. I have never felt that with writing until working on this script, which, as you said and as I said, is very personal. Um, and I'm finding it really hard to write. For most people, the more personal something is, the harder it is, uh, to do.

But I, I don't think I experience... [00:46:00] It's really more in acting that I experience that creative resistance. I also have found I do, when I am truly in a creative flow, I mean, I can do it, you know, on a, during a parade outside with a thousand-

Jake Scott: You, you actually really can. But

Rachel Scott: I wonder if your need for the perfect environment doesn't also get in your way, 'cause sometimes- It does.

Yes. I think sometimes when we're truly in a... It's like anytime... I used to do that with auditions, and I think you almost feel like, "I'm scared to do this, so let me just, just distract myself with having, like, ooh, I'm at the coffee shop and I got my highlighter and da da da da." And that gets in the way. For me- 100%

and I definitely think for Penny, Penny girl, Pinterest baby girl. Penny girl? Okay. Um, bec- not to say you can't have those things, but if those things are the meal and not just the silverware- Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah ... then it becomes- It's also an excuse. It just is an excuse. It's an excuse. And so I, I really felt that with acting more than I do writing, and obviously right now acting's kind of floating in the air around me.

I don't, it's not something I'm, like, doing day to day. And so I think the, the area I, I was most surprised by when [00:47:00] we go back to the straight-up vulnerability hangover that we keep saying is just simply telling my story. Yeah. I mean, the thoughts that were going through my head. No one cares about this Or, "Oh my gosh, wait, did I say that right?

That wasn't exactly how it went. I need to go correct that." This perfection, this need to be absolutely... Not perfect in terms of like, "Oh, look, she's perfect," but get it exactly perfectly accurate and, and, and this was exactly how it went. And I don't really remember, though, and I, I was like, my mind felt- Like, attacked itself.

Oh my gosh, yes. It was, like, turning over on itself. Um, you're gonna be, "Oh, what a joke. Oh, you're just... You know, you didn't, you didn't talk about this thing enough so people are not gonna know about that and they're gonna think you're lame," or, or, "You talked about this too much," or, "What were you saying?

That's not even real. People are gonna think you're this." Like, I mean, truly it felt, you know-

Jake Scott: Did you feel this, like, in the moment as it was happening or just immediately after? I felt

Rachel Scott: bits of it subconsciously in the moment where I was very aware of wanting h- you know... I, I haven't done that before. [00:48:00] Most people haven't.

Who's told a- Yeah ... two-hour story of themselves on a podcast? Yeah. So but for me in particular, again, it's not something I do even one on one very frequently. Yeah, yeah. And so it was a new muscle which means, as I keep saying to you, you know, gonna be hard when you first start something. So it was hard.

Yeah. It's hard to do. But m- the, the worst of it came after, like, that afternoon and the next few days of just feeling like, I don't... We're not gonna put that one out, no. We're, we're gonna delete that. And I had this feel- this weird, like, very nonsensical feeling like it was already out there. Mm. And I'm like, you are in con- you're literally doing this podcast.

Yeah. You can edit it. You can... You, I mean, not even edit, but, like, this is not out in the world. You are, you are the one doing this. No one is, no one is gonna take this and go, you know, publicly humiliate you with it. That is what it comes back to- Mm ... for me, these, these fears. And so I think most people can relate to a fear of vulnerability, but then it, that fear attaches itself to your past hurts and your past trauma.

[00:49:00] And I think the only way through is forward. Mm. 'Cause I can feel myself, I'm like, "Well, we're about to have this baby, so maybe we just put the podcast out next year." You said that. You

Jake Scott: said that to me. I know. You said to me last week. This is where

Rachel Scott: I'm like, "Thank God I have you as my husband," because- I was like, "No, what?"

I was like, I know we're about to, we're literally about to start releasing in, like, two weeks, and I'm not gonna... I, I've, I've grown and healed enough to where I'm not actually going to put a stop to it. But after last week's episode, for the first time it was like, maybe we shouldn't do this. Maybe this is a really bad idea.

Why are we doing this? We need to have a baby. Let's focus on the baby. Let's, let's... You know, all these, these things. And I'm not through it. I'm still sitting here- Yeah ... saying this, and I'm like, I don't think I'll feel anything about this. This is just a great conversation. But I will definitely... I'm still in the thick of terror over having i- I, the word I keep wanting to say even though it sounds like I flashed, is exposed myself.

Exposed myself. You,

Jake Scott: you, you, you emotionally exposed yourself. And

Rachel Scott: the, the obsessive from both of us, need to be understood, must die. You cannot be a [00:50:00] creative person who puts yourself out there and have an obsessive need to be understood. It just doesn't

Jake Scott: work Ooh, say more about that

Rachel Scott: Well, I don't think I need to.

I think you know exactly what I mean. But basically, we will be misunderstood. Even whether you're putting a song out or, or whatever out, a play, a script, or whether you are exactly telling your story- Mm ... in plain English, someone's gonna misunderstand it. Someone's gonna hear it in a way that you didn't mean it to be heard.

Yeah. And you're gonna say something wrong in a way that isn't exactly how you meant it. Those things are going to happen-

Jake Scott: Yes ...

Rachel Scott: over and over, and if you... I have let that fear stop me-

Jake Scott: Same ...

Rachel Scott: over and over again. Yeah. And, and I right now am not at the point where I can be like, "But no more," 'cause I'm like, "So let's keep hiding."

Yeah. That's what I feel like. I'm not going to, but I literally feel like that fear is still very palpable.

Jake Scott: Well, that's such a good word for s- everyone who's trying to be creative, everyone who's trying to live, is like, if you, if you cannot tolerate being [00:51:00] misunderstood, you will never- No ... put yourself out there in a real way.

And I look at people like Bob Dylan. Like, that dude did not care about being misunderstood. He was... He actually almost, like, sought it out. He wanted to be misunderstood. Well, there's probably something

Rachel Scott: in that too, but yeah. But

Jake Scott: here's another mic drop, and this is whatever, but- Oh, another mic drop. Self. The per- the person I look to all the time and I'm just like, "Man, I wish I had that quality," is Jesus.

Rachel Scott: Yes.

Jake Scott: Like, he was- I know ... telling stories, parables, whatever, left and right.

Rachel Scott: Well, he literally got- And he- ... mad and flipped a table. If I flipped a table publicly,

Jake Scott: I would- Oh, you'd have the worst hangover. I would You'd be like, "Oh, my gosh- I would die ... I'm horrible. I would... I'm never coming

Rachel Scott: back." But here's the thing.

Jesus did everything per- Like, his motivations were always perfect, right? He didn't- If I was flipping a table, I'd probably be out of sin- He didn't care ... but he was doing it out of- Yeah, but he- But, but e- He didn't

Jake Scott: care about being misunderstood. He did not care about saying things where people were like, "Who is this?

Kill him. Kill him." He was just like, "Y'all, y'all don't get it." I know. I know. Even the homies, like the hi- the, the disciples.

Rachel Scott: Oh, yeah. He turns on Peter and is like, "Hey, Satan, [00:52:00] get behind me." Yeah,

Jake Scott: and Peter's like, "What?"

Rachel Scott: I mean, if I turned on one of my friends and said that, I'd for weeks I'd

Jake Scott: be like, "I apologize."

Yeah, you, you would feel like, "Oh, now I have to take care of you," but Jesus was like- I know ... "Misunderstood." Now, here's, here's

Rachel Scott: a caveat to this.

Jake Scott: Yeah. Don't go telling your friends they're Satan, but-

Rachel Scott: Well, no. My point is I- his heart was perfect- Yes ... always, so everything he did was coming from a perfect heart.

Ours are clearly not that way. And s- but I'm wondering, I, as I say this, I'm like, now I think even if I took a risky action like everything we just said that he took, and it was I knew in that place my heart was actually clean, I would still slay myself over anything that leaves this box of safety.

Jake Scott: Yeah, exactly.

And I, I- Because we are not- Like, so for me, it's- ... able to tolerate being misunderstood- No ... and being loved- Even, even if we know- ... and adored by everyone ... what we did

Rachel Scott: was, was coming from the right place, was actually okay, I still, I think my h- my battle in life is I would rather be accepted- [00:53:00] Than be someone who is misunderstood even if it's for the right thing.

Jake Scott: Mm.

Rachel Scott: And I'm not gonna do that anymore 'cause clearly I'm sitting here talking about it- Yeah ... on a podcast and I'm- We can't. Yeah, we're outing ourselves ... I'm moving in this direction. Yeah. But I- This is accountability ... it, yeah, but it's also n- you know, I think, I truly think the only way, exposure therapy.

It's like- Yeah ... you have to just start, and I- Yeah ... uh, 'cause, uh, another big thing that I've let stop me is, oh, I'll start it once I'm perfect. Okay, well, once I feel comfortable with putting my story out and safe about it, where I don't care what people think. That's never gonna happen- Yeah ... until you're probably in your 80s.

I think maybe it naturally happens. I don't know. But- Maybe you

Jake Scott: stop caring altogether ...

Rachel Scott: you stop... I hope that happens at some point, but I would like for it to happen before then. But I think the way to move against it is, is to, is to do, is expose, it's exposure therapy. Do it. Yeah,

Jake Scott: and I think, I think also that it makes- 'Cause doing

Rachel Scott: it brings it up, too.

Sorry, go ahead.

Jake Scott: Yeah. What makes me excited about so many things that we're doing right now, like with this podcast, and I think as artists, like [00:54:00] accept- learning to accept... And I'm, I'm, I'm in the process right now. I have not crossed over yet because I, I just heard these people talking about it recently, about like if you can just accept on the front end that whatever you put out in the world, there will be people who love it, and there will be people who hate it.

So you might as well just accept it and have fun with it. Like who cares? Oh, wait, I have

Rachel Scott: a question. Would it be harder for you for your music to be rejected or this podcast? Because I think this podcast is an interesting thing 'cause it's us. But maybe, maybe it would still be harder for you if it was music.

Jake Scott: Music. Okay. I think music because I feel more insecure there.

Rachel Scott: Well, and I- You know? ... I, I, that actually makes me feel protected because I'm like, cool, so you've, for, you can be strong for us where, 'cause if, if this gets rejected, w- when this is rejected- Yeah, there are gonna be people who don't like this ... by the five people watching it, two of them won't like it.

Yeah. Maybe four.

Jake Scott: Some dude, some dude down in who, who knows where.

Rachel Scott: Wherever. [00:55:00] The drill team or it's like they're gonna hate it. The drill team is coming

Jake Scott: hot. Um, I,

Rachel Scott: you'll, you really, I, I will vouch for you. I, I, I know that that might... You have the proper amount of hurt. Life is not about saying, "Oh, that doesn't hurt me."

Of course it hurts, but then you can move through it, let it go, move on. Your identity and worth aren't stabbed. Whereas I'm like, "Stab me, rejecters. I w- I will die today." Yeah. But your music is where, yeah.

Jake Scott: Well, it's because I think in music, I feel there is a much deeper insecurity for me there than there...

I mean, this is just us talking, you know? Like, I obviously want people to resonate with this, and I want people to enjoy this. But at the end of the day, like you and I are gonna keep talking later today, we're gonna keep talking tonight, like this isn't gonna stop. So I guess for me, it's, it's... it feels less vulnerable because it's not, like, something we've m- it is something we've made together, but you know what I'm saying?

It's not- Yeah ... it's not like something-

Rachel Scott: Well, I think it's my own... You, you know, you haven't [00:56:00] experienced a lot of rejection as a person.

Jake Scott: I have. Definitely have. I mean, in different ways than- In ways that we all have,

Rachel Scott: but it doesn't, those wounds-

Jake Scott: But I will say that most of the time, it is always related to my performance, if it was in sports or if it was in- Mm, interesting.

There it is ... music or- Yeah ... if it was in, you know, I play this song and I miss the words or I flub the chords or I, my voice sounded bad or whatever. Like, that was always where I found safety was did I perform well, and so I think that is why this doesn't feel that scary to me. But putting a song out feels scarier because it's like, oh, well this is just a direct reflection of my performance.

Did I write the song well? Mm-hmm. Did I produce it well? Did I market it well? And you, you

Rachel Scott: care so much because you love it so much. Yeah. And that is something you have to be careful with, because it's so easy to put that somewhere that it shouldn't be in your life.

Jake Scott: 100%, 100%. And

Rachel Scott: it ruins it for you, you know?

It destroy it.

Jake Scott: It makes it not fun, and I think that that's- That, that,

Rachel Scott: that... I felt that with acting. [00:57:00] It became, it was... Which is why I think COVID and babies and these things that have forced me to let it go, I'm like, "Oh, I can breathe again," because my identity is not wrapped up in this thing I'm trying to do.

Jake Scott: Did you feel with acting, like, because it was so completely out of your control, that's why it also added to the bag of like, "Well, I have to just do anything I can to be accepted"? Or was it just because of what I just said, like-

Rachel Scott: I never felt like I have to do anything I can to be accepted. I felt like I have to be accepted to be worthy.

Ah. And it did, I think, what you're saying, it is such... You putting music out and me auditioning is literally saying, "Am I good enough n- or not?" Yeah. Please like me or not. Whereas my writing is like, "I love this. I can do this." I mean, I grew, I don't know if I touched on that last time in the, my story thing, but I definitely, with writing, it went from love-hate to just love.

I just love it. Like, it, it was a muscle that I grew to where I'm like, "Oh, this is just like breathing. I love this." Do you still

Jake Scott: feel that way?

Rachel Scott: Oh, yeah. I mean, this, this- Like even on this script ... project right now is very hard. No. Right now I'm like, I don't doubt [00:58:00] whether I should be doing it and this existential stuff.

I just am like, "Oh, I'm resistant to this-" Mm ... because it's hard. Normally, when I write, you know me, I can sit there for two hours- Oh ... and wr- I just lose myself. Literally

Jake Scott: in the middle of the living room, cross leg, most uncomfortable. The opposite of what I do.

Rachel Scott: I, you need a little bit of me, okay? I

Jake Scott: do. I do.

You're, I think you're right. You, I need to think about that more. Yeah. But, but yeah, no, for you, like, it is such like- But the- It, for writing for you, it just is so, like- It's just, it's just- ... e- effortless, you get lost in it ... I don't have that pressure on it, but I- But I had seen with this thing that it's really hitting a chord, and you f- even felt like, you know, this was given to you.

Yeah. No idea. Yeah, I s- I see the resistance around it. Because, because it seems like-

Rachel Scott: Well, it's a harder nut for me to crack. I'm like, I don't quite know where it should go. Yeah. There's just more challenge in it, and also the personal factor. But I think it's more than the personal thing. I think it's more just like it, um, it is not as easy for me to write as other things have been, and so I'm resisting- Mm

it. So same thing, you know? I was gonna

Jake Scott: say, I was very interested that we're both going through that [00:59:00] at the same time. I

Rachel Scott: know. But I think mine is, you know, I, I, I only have... Well, I don't know about that. I'm gonna take that thought back. But yeah, I do feel like I can relate to you, though more so with the acting thing, where like you are with your music, it's just like publicly consume this or not, and if you don't, there's, there's...

Okay.

Jake Scott: It is really vulnerable.

Rachel Scott: It's so vulnerable. I mean,

Jake Scott: the, in, uh, for however, I mean- But you

Rachel Scott: don't get these, these hangovers that I get.

Jake Scott: I mean, I- You

Rachel Scott: don't, maybe you don't let, maybe you shove it down. Yeah, I don't know. And I make a- It might be- ... altar to it ... 'cause

Jake Scott: like if I have a show-

Rachel Scott: You'll get it then, uh-huh

Jake Scott: where I have like a really weird moment, I mean, I'll lose sleep over it.

Rachel Scott: So that's the same thing. Or like a

Jake Scott: bad, like if I, if I, if I totally botch the, a section of lyrics or something like that, like I just have this, these just-

Rachel Scott: Yeah ...

Jake Scott: crazy voices that are happening while I'm on stage- Yeah ... middle of the song.

Okay.

Rachel Scott: So that's exactly it. Yeah. That's exactly it. And we handle it differently, and it looks differently 'cause we're obviously different, but it, that's the same thing and- So

Jake Scott: you go into, you, you let the voices in, you [01:00:00] go like, "What's the worst-case scenario?" I bathe in the voices. Oh,

Rachel Scott: I'm like, "The worst case will happen," because what have I said to you?

Yeah. There's been moments in my life where that worst thought, oh, it came true. Yeah. And so then I've let that... Now how many times has the worst case not happened? Every other time.

Jake Scott: True.

Rachel Scott: Which I haven't thought about till now. I'll think about that later. But- ... but that one time when the worst thing happened- Yeah

it's like, well, it's possible. It's traumatizing. And so I need to protect myself by focusing on the worst thing so that it doesn't surprise me. Yep. Yep. Where- Yep, yep, yep ... I mean, it's this whole- You go looking for it ... I go look- Well, it comes to me. Yeah. And then I, and then I plant it and water it, seed it.

The sun is bright. But that part of you But you definitely, I've seen this now. The gardener, right? On tour, it's, it can be a gauntlet. And, and I think- Yeah ... I mean, to wrap this up, I think the, the, the only takeaway is you just keep going. And, and- Yeah ... a- as you wake up- Mm-hmm ... in life and you keep pursuing whatever it is that scares you, that you're meant to do, you, it, [01:01:00] it, I don't wanna say it becomes easier, but you learn that deep lesson that we like to quote which is, it's more important and, and fulfilling and actually necessary to do it even if everyone rejects it, than it is to do something- Mm

that isn't you in the middle of that arena. Yeah. So clown suit off. Uh, Peanuts away, and I will hop into this.

Jake Scott: Remember? I just wanna see Rach just in a slow-mo wiping off the makeup. Wipe off the clown makeup. The clown shoes are being thrown in the air. I'm getting in the

Rachel Scott: actual arena. They're, they're size 24s.

I'll be done with the fake... Size 24s? They're clown shoes. Please, I understand they are so huge. And she's sprinting. But you can't say that. She's sprinting.

Jake Scott: The wig is falling off. She's in the arena. The wig's gone,

Rachel Scott: and you're joining me there, whatever fake arena you've been in. I- Bank of the river. You're in the river, I'm in the arena, we're doing it.

I was on the sidelines. Even though I will be throwing up, so I'm gonna throw up.

Jake Scott: You should throw up all over that field. And I think, I think that that is something that's beautiful too, 'cause I was thinking of it as you were talking, is like the, the point of that whole quote is, like, even if they try and fail, at least they failed daring greatly.

Well- And for us, I think what [01:02:00] you're saying is the only way to become who we wanna be, to become the... To, to learn these lessons, to push through this discomfort, is to simply push- Just do it ... through the discomfort. Yes. To do it. The only way to the other side is to go through it.

Rachel Scott: Don't wait until you feel...

I mean, that's what I've done for so long. I gotta wait until I feel ready, or I'm healed enough, or I'm evolved enough. Yeah. And that's just never gonna happen.

Jake Scott: And there's also some, some solace in putting your, your, you know, if you're an artist and putting work out there, like, you, you... Everybody is growing in the public eye now, and that's just part of it.

And the, the- Well, that's

Rachel Scott: actually how it's always been. I don't think- Yeah ... I don't think creativity happens in some perfect place. Like- I agree. I agree ... it, it's all in motion, and, and you just have to get do- It's never done, and you just put it out when, when it's, you know... Then a year later you're like, "Well, I would've done this differently or that differently."

Yeah. But that's the beauty in it. Yeah. And also, all of this, I think a n- whole other podcast, this, this is getting long, is, is killing the addiction to comfort, because comfort feels like- [01:03:00] Preach. Yeah. Well, here's a safe version of this that feels comfortable to me, instead of like right now, what I, what the lie keeps telling me is like, "You're about to have a baby.

You just need to kinda hide away. That's really comfortable." Instead of like, actually, life happens in the discomfort.

Jake Scott: Mm-hmm. And- Put the podcast out ...

Rachel Scott: put it out, have the baby, have a beautiful, big life, instead of this fake, perfect, comfortable life that is gonna slowly kill you.

Jake Scott: Fricking go. 'Cause I

Rachel Scott: think that I'm gonna die if I get in the real river, arena, whatever.

But really, death happens when you're not in there. Mm. It's slower, and it feels better, until you're on life support. So cheers, baby. I'm fricking fired up. Let's go throw up.

Jake Scott: I wanna jump through a window. Okay. Same. Let's go vomit in the arena. Love ya. I

Rachel Scott: guess that's it for today. Say a prayer for me to not die.

Jake Scott: See you next time