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Licensed psychologist Dr. Jen McWaters, and wellness coach Kaitlin Reed, join forces to help women create an abundant life through holistic wellness practices, mindset shifts, and fostering a healthy relationship with food and their bodies. Join us as we take a deep dive and uncover the raw truth about mental health, nutrition, fitness, and beyond, offering insights and strategies for transformative growth.
Dr. Jen McWaters is a licensed psychologist and a holistic wellness coach for women. She is a Certified Integrative Mental Health Professional and is passionate about helping high-achieving women overcome their mental blocks, find freedom from anxiety, and create an abundant life inside and out. Find out more about her work at: awakeningholistichealth.com
Kaitlin Reed is a fitness, nutrition, and mental wellness coach on a mission to help women build the body and life they deserve and desire. She has BAs in Health Promotion and Wellness & Fitness Management, MA in Performance Psychology, currently pursuing her Ph.D. in Health Psychology. Her goal is to help women finally understand the science and strategy of nutrition and exercise so they can achieve their goals and live an empowered life. Head over to kaitlinreedwellness.com to learn more.
DISCLAIMER: This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your personal physician if you have any personal medical questions.
Welcome to the Counter Culture Health podcast. I'm doctor Jen McWaters. And I'm coach Kaitlin Reed. We're here to help high achieving women overcome mental blocks, find freedom from anxiety, create an abundant life, and build the body and life that they deserve and desire. In this weekly podcast, we'll uncover the raw truth about mental health, nutrition, fitness, and beyond. Let's get to it. Happy Thursday. Welcome to another week of counter culture health.
Kaitlin:Today, we have a pretty important topic that I think many of us struggle with. So I'm super excited to talk about this today, and the topic for today is perfectionism. So, Jen, can you please define for us what perfectionism is?
Jen:Yeah. Lots of ways to think about it, but one definition that I found that I really like that I feel like hits it on the head is this, and this is from a Science article. It says perfectionism can be defined as a tendency to aim and strive toward idealized, flawless, and excessively high standards in a relentless manner. I think that's a really good picture of what it looks like when you're in it, where you see someone else in it. It's to this just kind of almost obsessive, we could say, aim towards a high bar that often is never quite achievable.
Jen:Or if they do reach something, it's not quite enough, and then there's another bar that they create for themselves. So So that's how we think about perfectionism, and I say this as a recovering perfectionist. That's how I call my that's what I call myself because I definitely struggle with this myself. Still do at times, but especially through school and being younger, there's a lot of, things we'll talk about as far as why this might develop. And, you know, I'll say, like, for me, I think it's a combination of, like, temperaments and propensity towards anxiety and even just, like, cultural messages and schooling and just the way that is structured and, you know, for a lot of people too, things like parental expectations.
Jen:All of those things can factor into why someone might have this more perfectionistic tendency.
Kaitlin:Something I have struggled with as well. So I think it's I think it's pretty common. Would you would you say so?
Jen:It's really common. I think it's culturally accepted too. And, again, often the underpinnings are really anxiety driven or there's these, sometimes, core beliefs, negative core beliefs people have that are fueling this compensation with perfectionism. So sometimes someone might have a lot of, like, self esteem issues and the perfectionism is a compensation for that. But on the outside, it looks like they're just a high achieving person.
Jen:And we we do I mean, perfectionism kind of works. Right? Because it does help people be really successful, do well in school, climb up the corporate ladder, be high performing in whatever area they're trying to excel in, like sports, academia. So it's acceptable to be perfectionistic, so we kind of think of it too as as another manifestation of high functioning anxiety. People who are really perfectionistic often have some level of anxiety, but, again, it's just being manifested in this really productive way.
Jen:So, yes, highly common.
Kaitlin:Yeah. What are well, how do you think it develops? Like, where does where does this tendency come from?
Jen:It really depends. So lots of factors at play. But like I mentioned, one thing is temperament. Some people, I think, are just more prone to that maybe because of temperament, genetics, etcetera. Sometimes family expectations, so family messaging, even if it's not intentional, like, no no parent usually intends to put that kind of expectation on their child, but sometimes familial expectations will drive that.
Jen:So there's this kind of subtle messaging of, you know, reward and reinforcement when a child succeeds or does really well. And so then the message that the child might hear is, like, oh, like, I get loved when I do x y z. Again, that often is not the intent of the parent, but that's how a child's brain might hear it. And then, again, maybe parent only gives attention when the child's really successful in an area of sports, academia, or something else. And so, again, that can reinforce that maybe underlying temperament or propensity to then really focus on achieving, achieving, achieving, which then can then turn into, like, a really hardcore perfectionistic way of doing life.
Jen:So that's another piece. And, again, just having anxiety already might make you more prone to be perfectionistic. And if you obviously, if you had trauma so if you already have, maybe a trauma history, experience that's really impacted your core sense of who you are, your self worth, then perfectionism is another, we could say, again, compensation for that, right, way of coping with that or way of not feeling that by then getting rewarded and reinforced and lauded and loved for how you are in the outside world of what you've achieved. So that's somewhat different ways. Would you add anything else to that?
Kaitlin:Yeah. A lot of not feeling, like, a sense of self or who they are, and it's it's tied to accomplishments and and what they do instead. And I've seen this show up in ways too of, instead of getting, like, praise for accomplishments, some people don't even get recognized or paid attention to for things, so then they try to perfect everything that they do to try to get this attention or love that they're lacking.
Jen:Yeah. And that's why, you know, with schooling, you know, I was I would say, like, a really good professional student. Like, I was just good at school, and I excelled in that. So I really poured my energy into that and and got a lot of self gratification from that, but then I've got a lot of external praise for my school performance. And, I always now looking back, think about that, and I have worked with lots of teens who are in the process of that, and it's hard for me, being able to to see it from this lens and see how much our students are often suffering under the pressure that then is driving the perfectionism.
Jen:Right? Like, there's this competition for grades. There is just so much great focus for things like college and your transcript and your next steps. And I see kids literally, like, just not even enjoying their childhood and just, like, suffering under this load of crazy homework and hours and hours of studying, not really having a childhood because they're so focused on grades because of the pressure on no. Not just internally driven, but maybe from parents and then very much so from the school.
Jen:And then all the messaging around them, school counselors, like, you have to get this grade to get to this school. You have to take all these extra AP classes to get this grade. I mean, even just the fact that you can get over a 4 point o, wherein, like, my role when I grew up, that wasn't even a thing. And now it's like 4 point o was perfect then, and now that's not even perfect anymore. You can get above perfect in school right now.
Jen:You can get a 4.5, 4.6. So I feel like all that actually is is driving that. And then the last piece with especially with the young ones is social media. Social media drives perfectionism because what we see is a perfected, curated view of someone's life or the way they look. And it happens with TV too, movies, but especially social media.
Jen:I think that drives people's again, if they already have a propensity towards perfectionism, then seeing other people's supposedly perfect life makes them have this increased drive to wanna make everything in their life perfect just so they can kinda compete. Or they feel like they're failing, so they have to up the ante in their perfectionistic drive.
Kaitlin:Yeah. Yeah. And that's a that's another good point that, like, whatever they accomplish or achieve is is not enough. So, like, the goal post is always moving too.
Jen:It's a great way to
Kaitlin:think of it.
Jen:Yeah. Yeah.
Kaitlin:Well, that's something that I struggled with, personally, in academics and in sports, in any competition was I would achieve something great, but not, celebrate it. I'm like, wasn't a big deal. That's what I was supposed to do. That's the expectation. Why do we need to celebrate?
Kaitlin:It's just what I'm supposed to be doing. It's not that great. So it took me a while to learn to, like, acknowledge and celebrate great things that happen.
Jen:Yeah. Yeah. And with that so kind of thinking as we transition to what are some of, like, the costs of this or why is this not a great mindset to have, one thing is there's this thing called an arrival fallacy. And this is this false belief we often have that once I get to x goal or reach x accomplishment, I will be happy. And then, ultimately, we get to x goal and accomplishment, and we're happy for a little bit.
Jen:And it feels good. We get that adrenaline rush and endorphins, and people laud and praise us. And then people forget, and they move on. And the newness wears off just like a new car, super exciting to get initially, and then the newness wears off. Same with clothing.
Jen:Same thing comes with achievements. And so that's a problem is, like like you said, the goal post is always moving, and you will not be satisfied with really anything in life if you have a perfectionistic mindset and assume that that thing is gonna make you happy or that achievement will make you happy.
Kaitlin:Yes. I see this all the time in the work that I do because most of the people that I work with have a weight loss goal. Right? So we are always talking about that. A lot of people think that achieving a certain weight is going to make them feel better, solve all their problems, that, you know, this this number on the scale is the issue.
Kaitlin:You know? And then people achieve that, and they still are feeling empty, feeling like, the problem still exists. Right? So I'm always talking to people about, achieving a certain number is not going to solve the issue. We need to address the perfectionism, you know, the the root cause, the things underneath.
Jen:Mhmm. And a lot of that is toxic thinking. Right? It's it's really distorted thinking, and that's what needs to be addressed. And that's where working with a coach, therapist can be super helpful.
Jen:Because if you don't address the roots, which are the thoughts and the beliefs, they're gonna keep manifesting in different ways. Or, you know, again, it could look like high achieving for someone or someone else. It could then turn into an eating disorder, right, or a substance abuse issue or gambling problem. There's other ways that that thing might show up. So it's so important to attack it at the root and really learn how to manage your thinking and get your thinking more in line with truth.
Jen:Yeah.
Kaitlin:Yeah. So how how does perfectionism impact people, negatively impact people?
Jen:One big way that I myself also experienced was there can be this such this pressure to achieve, and you get used to doing so well that you're afraid to try hard things. Right? It doesn't always logically make sense, but for a perfectionist, it's like, if I can't do it a 100%, I'm not gonna do it at all. If I don't think I'm gonna a 100% excel at this, I'm not even gonna try. And so the reality is, though, the people that are most successful that we see, that often we see as, like, role models and when it comes to sports or, business, etcetera, like, they went through lots of failure to get there, lots of rejection.
Jen:And that is hard if you're a perfectionist to take. It's really painful. Right? It's intolerable to experience rejection or or failure or whatever it is. So when you don't have that more flexible mindset, you
Kaitlin:will miss out
Jen:on opportunities. You will miss out on opportunities. You will miss out on success. You will miss out on personal growth because you are so afraid of failing, because you're trying to protect this kind of fragile sense of being flawless even though that is impossible. I think that's, like, the biggest thing on a more general sense.
Kaitlin:Yeah. Why do you think that is? Like, it brings up a sense of shame, or it says something about themselves?
Jen:Yeah. I think so. Like, shame, definitely. And like what you said before, people expect something of them. And so the idea that then people would see them differently is really painful.
Jen:So, like, if a student is always gets perfect grades, 4 point o, the idea of them not getting that, they're afraid of what people around them would think about them. Like, oh, they're gonna think I'm lazy or that I can't hack it or something else about me. So it becomes this internal thing. There's, like, like, shame internal, and then there's also this sense I might get shamed external as well if I don't perform the way I've always performed. So it becomes very, like, self fulfilling.
Jen:You created, like, this this expectation that you can't even maintain people around you.
Kaitlin:Yeah. I found that it keeps a lot of people stuck to it, like, puts them in this freeze state.
Jen:Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I think, again, it can look so different for each person, but it definitely will keep you stuck.
Jen:It'll keep you stuck. It'll keep you from moving forward. It'll keep you just really in a state of fear. And we know that when we're in a state of fear, like, we just can't function at our best. We operate out of our emotions rather than our wisdom.
Jen:We have a hard time making wise decisions. We definitely have a hard time facing discomfort. We're not willing to, and we miss out on growth. We miss out on so much in our lives. And I feel like a lot of people just don't actually reach their potential because they're just afraid of failing.
Jen:I think that's really, really common. I've heard it said, like, everyone has at least one book in them. So imagine if people did that, but most people don't because they're afraid. They're afraid of, well, what if it no one likes it? What if it's rejected?
Jen:What if this? What if that? So I think, really, that's a big thing that most holds most people back from something that they actually deeply want to do or care about, but they are so afraid of failing and messing up and what the judgments might be that they did.
Kaitlin:Yeah. I wanna touch on 2 things there and it around the mindset of it, of a flexible mindset. So a lot of times people are, very black and white or strict and rigid with their thinking. So can you touch on that a little bit? Like, how do we develop a flexible mindset?
Jen:Yeah. It definitely takes practice. So that's where, you know, working with a coach or therapist who's trained in this kind of work is great. So something's something that I practice is called acceptance and commitment therapy, and that's all about creating cognitive flexibility. That's one of the core pieces of the work there.
Jen:And so there's lots of ways to go about it, but, definitely, you know, first, being aware that your thinking is more black and white is a good place to start. So that's something I might challenge a client on is like, hey. Well, when you said this, you said you said x or y. Now that's a very black and white way of thinking about it. So I'll challenge them and say, what would be something in the gray?
Jen:What's the middle path between those two things? Just to get the practice of, hey. Maybe there's more than just a and b. Now what's in in between so we can think about how, like, success might be on a spectrum? Maybe it's not just what you think it has to be.
Jen:It's not just this. It's also all these things, and all these things move you closer to your success as well. And, really, a lot of the work is accepting discomfort. So creating doing, like, exposure work creates flexibility. So this might sound like a silly example for some people, but there are people that have so much perfectionism and wraparound, like, even things like their writing.
Jen:Like, I work with students where they can't even tolerate, like, having to erase something on a paper for school or scribble that they have to start all over. They'll throw away an entire page of notes so they can start over and have perfect handwriting. This really does happen for people. So an exposure might be we actually force them to through of course, with their willingness, practice, like, writing, scribbling, misspelling something, and leaving it there, and completing their assignment, turning it in. That might sound silly to you, but that is, like, high anxiety for many people, right, who are stuck in that.
Jen:So but the exposure work and then having the end result of, like, okay. The world didn't end. I still got a good grade. It was everything was okay. Gives your brain, like, evidence of, like, okay.
Jen:Maybe my assumptions are incorrect, and now I have evidence to show that it's not gonna be catastrophic, and that helps create flexibility. But there's other potential outcomes aside from this catastrophic one that I had created in my mind. So exposure work can help as well. And then just like thought work, you know, being able to identify what the thought is that's holding you back and then checking the facts on that. Like, is there any evidence for that?
Jen:Is that actually true? Like, is it actually true that if I, I don't know, if I don't, for like, so students thinking about students right now, if I don't get a 4 point o, then I'm not gonna get to a good college. Is that actually true? And if I don't get to a good college, then I won't get a job, and then I'll be homeless and living with my parents. I mean, that's where the the brain goes.
Jen:And so we have to attack each of those thoughts and, like, is that really true? Like, a 100% true? I guess it's always possible, but it's not probable because possible is not the same thing as probable. Right? Like, we all could technically lose a job or be homeless.
Jen:It's possible. It's not probable for most of us. So it's looking at the evidence behind that so you can, again, teach your brain to think flexibly of like, hey. Just because I have a thought doesn't make that thought true. I say that all the time in my work.
Jen:Just because you have a thought doesn't make it true. You have to learn how to use your mind to evaluate your thinking, especially if you're a perfectionist. You have to look at, you know, what am I thinking about this? You know, what about my thoughts about failure about this? Is that actually true, or is that just my emotions talking to me?
Jen:Because emotions are often, they're great, but they lead us astray.
Kaitlin:Yeah.
Jen:Especially in this realm.
Kaitlin:Yes. Yeah. I love that point that you just brought up, because I feel like a lot of people create scenarios that unrealistic scenarios, let's say. Their mind just kinda goes down this, spiral of creating all these unrealistic scenarios that could happen. So what would you say to someone that struggles with that?
Kaitlin:You know, that they're they're in this such anxious state or something that they are they can't get their mind slowed down enough to stop and and think about each of these thoughts. Right? Because we have to pause and have the awareness first that we're having these thoughts and then keeping ourselves from going down these spirals.
Jen:So, like, thinking about how to not get to worst case scenario thinking, catastrophic thinking. Yeah. And you're right. Step 1 is you have to know what your thoughts are. And there's lots of ways to get there, but that's where mindfulness is really helpful.
Jen:So just even just slowing down and practicing, maybe meditation is a great tool to do this, Practicing just sitting quietly and breathing and write down write down what's coming up in your head. Write down what your thoughts are. Put them on paper. It's a good place to start. Most people don't do that, and so it's really hard to capture thinking unless you're putting it into words and onto paper so that you can now then actually get space from those thoughts.
Jen:You can look at them on paper and evaluate them with your mind using your metacognition and say, okay. Okay. Wow. That's I'm thinking that. That's kind of wild.
Jen:Is that really true? And then if not, mostly most likely not, you know, how can you reframe that to be more of a balanced, nuanced thought and then practicing that new thought to help retrain your mind how you want it to think? And then when it comes to worst case scenario, one thing I love to do with folks is to, on a paper, to write out what is the best case scenario for that situation. On the other end of a spectrum, like running a line with a spectrum, what is the very worst case scenario? And then also in between, trying to think of what are, like, the medium or more likely scenarios because oftentimes what actually happens in life is somewhere between the best and the worst.
Jen:Very rarely, the very, very best and the very, very worst. Right? So just having them flexibly think about that is helpful, step 1. And then step 2, to take away the power from the worst case scenario, I'll ask them like, okay. Let's say that actually happened.
Jen:Again, it's possible but not probable. How would you deal with it? Because doing that, you often realize, wow. I have way more tools and resources and support than I thought, and so that takes the power away from that. So, again, someone who is afraid of losing their job and worst case scenario is, I lose my job and I'm homeless, And I'll challenge them.
Jen:Again, this may not be the case for everyone, but be like, okay. Is that really true? And if you did lose your job, what would you do to make sure that you didn't end up homeless? Like, well, I would start applying to jobs right away. I could call so and so who's connected in this, you know, area of work.
Jen:I would probably move in with my parents, so I wouldn't be homeless or move in with so and so friends. You know, I can collect unemployment. So just working through that is like, okay. Even if your worst case scenario happened, that outcome probably wouldn't be what you think it is, and you have so many more tools and resources to deal with it. So I think that's a good practice for people that go to catastrophic thinking quickly just to teach them, like, your thoughts are really irrational, and there's so many more outcomes that are way more likely.
Jen:So let's focus on that and realize you have tools to deal with the worst of the worst. Focus your energy on what is actually more likely.
Kaitlin:Mhmm. I love that exercise because most times when people write it out, they realize like, oh, that's kinda crazy. That's a crazy thought. But when it's stuck in your head on a loop, it seems so real. Right?
Kaitlin:And that's why I think it's so helpful to get it out on paper and get it out of that loop, that is happening.
Jen:Yeah. And that's why therapy and coaching is so helpful too because you are saying it out loud to someone and you're hearing it. Same idea as writing it. You're getting space from it, and you're like, oh, wait. Okay.
Jen:Yeah. That that does sound unreasonable or that does sound catastrophic. And that also helps you get perspective to again realize, like, this is just a thought or it's just a belief or it's just a fear. It doesn't mean that it's going to be true, and you can do things to change your thinking, which will change how you feel about it and make you more flexible to deal with discomfort and hardship and all of that.
Kaitlin:Yeah. Yeah. Living as a perfectionist is, pretty hard and challenging and miserable, you might say. How can people recover? Or, you know, how did you recover?
Kaitlin:I know we can implement some of these tools, but what other suggestions would you give or, you know, how someone can go about recovering from their perfectionist ways?
Jen:I don't have, like, a 3 step patented process. If ever do, I'll bring it here and share it with you guys. But it it's a journey. Right? Just like anything else that we all have our own struggles, and that's something that I've struggled with.
Jen:And so it's something I'm always working on and journey with. And working on it looks like my own therapy, my own coaching, especially, has been so helpful for me. Forcing myself to try hard things,
Kaitlin:that's
Jen:a big one. Just doing exposure work, just doing it anyway, and then getting the support you need to stay accountable to do it is big. So, even just having loving words for my spouse or reading her, you know, my relationship with God. Like, all those things are part of the journey to help me adopt a more flexible mindset and have more grace for myself, and then in doing so, having more grace for other people. Because that's the part we didn't talk about, but the tough thing is perfectionists often are not just perfectionistic with themselves, but they can be with people around them.
Jen:And they can be really hurt and disappointed when other people don't perform or measure up in the way that they think they should or that they would. So I've heard that from clients. They'll be hurt that they're like, well, I'm like sensual, like this perfect friend, and they're so hurt when their friend maybe is thoughtless or hurts them accidentally or doesn't work as hard in the friendship as they do. So it really benefits not just you, but your relationships around you to work on this because it like you said, you can be so miserable and anxious and exhausted and just tired and burnt out. So it's so important to work on this from all those angles, from a physical angle too, right, working on maybe anxiety in the body, working on the spiritual components maybe going on there for you, the trauma components going on, the psychological components, thought work.
Jen:All those pieces are really important.
Kaitlin:Yeah. How do you think that control plays a part in this, you know, the process of, like, letting go of things too?
Jen:Yeah. For sure. I mean and and that goes back to the cousins of anxiety and fear and discomfort. And so when you work on fully surrendering psychologically, physically, you know, spiritually, it allows you to be able to do that, create acceptance, and acceptance is just creating space for what actually is and being able to tolerate the discomfort of that. So that that's so important.
Jen:Part of that work is just that letting go and surrendering and learning that you can survive that and that the world will not crash and burn and end if such and such happens.
Kaitlin:Yes. Yeah. Exposure and tolerating discomfort. I think that's such a huge, piece of of working through this.
Jen:Yeah. Yeah. And and, like, almost trying to fail. You know? Like, trying to do the hard thing is so hard and uncomfortable, but that's what you you gotta do, and that helps you overcome it.
Jen:It really does help. At least helps you keep it in check. And that's what most people aren't willing to do is do the discomfort work and face the hard stuff, but that is the way through. There's no way around. There's only the way through, and it requires the willingness or however heard it said before.
Jen:The good quote is, I have to be comfortable with being uncomfortable.
Kaitlin:Yeah.
Jen:All of it boils down to that. And whatever it takes to get comfortable with discomfort, that's gonna lead me through it and get me to the other side of where I wanna be.
Kaitlin:Yep. And I always say failure is one of the best teachers.
Jen:It really is. Yeah. And if you get comfortable with failure, like, you're really doing it. You know? Like, the people that say that, I'm like, wow.
Jen:That's awesome. Like, I wanna get to that point, but, like, I love failure. I embrace it. Like, I wanna really be able to believe that on my core, I'm not there yet, but but maybe one day.
Kaitlin:Yeah. Always a work in progress.
Jen:Always.
Kaitlin:Well, thank you guys for joining us again today. Hopefully you got a few helpful tips out of this and can, start your journey or continue your journey on recovering from perfectionism. We'll see you next week.
Jen:Bye, guys. Thanks for joining us on the Counter Culture Health podcast. To support this show, please rate, review, and share with your friends and family. If you wanna be reminded of new episodes, click the subscribe button on your preferred player. You can find me, Jen, at awaken.holistic.healthandatawakeningholistichealth.com.
Jen:And me, Caitlin, at Caitlin Reed Wellness and Caitlin Reed Wellness.com.
Kaitlin:The content of the show is for educational and informational purposes only. As always, talk to your doctor and health team. See you next time.