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Welcome to The 1909, the podcast that takes an in-depth look at The State News’ biggest stories of the week, while bringing in new perspectives from the reporters who wrote them.
It's Wednesday, September 17th, and this is the 19 09, the state news's weekly podcast featuring our reporters talking about the news. I'm your host, Alex Walters. First up this week, Michigan State's administration is filled with interrupts, and their temporary tenures have consequences. We'll get the inside scoop on the pesky plethora of short term leaders running MSU. Then tribal councils?
Alex Walters:Torches? Sudden elimination? On campus? Yes. A group of full time MSU students are becoming part time survivors, spending their nights on an elaborate recreation of the popular reality game show.
Alex Walters:Our reporter takes us inside the club. But first, our interims. Right now, I've got Owen McCarthy, state news administration reporter with me. Yeah. Good to have you.
Owen McCarthy:Thanks so much for having me, Alex.
Alex Walters:Owen is back to state newsing from a summer covering Knoxville, Tennessee at the Compass, I believe.
Owen McCarthy:At Compass. That's right.
Alex Walters:Yeah.
Owen McCarthy:Yeah. And
Alex Walters:this is kinda your first big story back. I'm excited to have you to talk about it.
Owen McCarthy:Yeah.
Alex Walters:It's probably an issue that if you're listening to, you've probably never thought about. Mhmm. Don't know anything about. But luckily, there's guys that go in.
Owen McCarthy:Rest assured.
Alex Walters:Think about this stuff for you and then tell you about it 19 to 9. But first of all, interim administrators, what what does that mean? What
Owen McCarthy:even is that? An interim administrator is someone who is appointed to fill a vacancy. You know, someone in higher ed might need to leave for for any number of reasons, but it was unexpected in any case. And then as the university is looking for a permanent person oftentimes through a national search, they in the meantime, while they're doing that search, they appoint someone to hold the position temporarily, and they call it an interim.
Alex Walters:And this is I mean, you kinda argue in your story that this is common at MSU.
Owen McCarthy:There's a
Alex Walters:bunch of these. Right? Take us through kinda broad numbers. I mean, at the top level, there are a lot of these interim types?
Owen McCarthy:Yeah. So so a great place to to kinda start is if we're looking at the deanships. So at MSU, we have 17 degree granting colleges. And since 2020, there have been 14 interim dean appointments across 12 of those 17 colleges. So only 5 of them have not had at least 1 interim, and some of those 12 have had multiple
Alex Walters:Multiple interims in that period. Yeah. That's a lot.
Owen McCarthy:Yeah. And, you know, aside from the deanships, if we're looking, like, at this present moment in in sort of central administration, so this is these are your vice presidents, people that are reporting directly to the president. The provost, the executive vice president for administration, the chief information officer, the chief safety officer roles are all held by interims. And and if you're listening to those titles right there, you know, they sound pretty important. Right?
Owen McCarthy:It's you you can't understate, really their significance, but, you know, all of those are held by by interims at the moment. And, again, I don't I don't wanna say that that's inherently negative, but that's the situation.
Alex Walters:Well, but even below the central administration too, you kinda talk in your story about the people that students or faculty might encounter day to day at the college level.
Owen McCarthy:Yeah.
Alex Walters:A lot of interims there too. Tell me, you have this anecdote that starts your story that I thought kinda illustrated the absurdity of some of these situations. Tell me about this professor in comm arts.
Owen McCarthy:Yeah. So so as I was, you know, working on reporting this story out, bunch of faculty members kept telling me, you gotta talk to Nancy Rhodes. Have. You have to. And if you don't, you'd, that would be bad.
Owen McCarthy:Pretty much is what they were saying.
Alex Walters:No. Yeah.
Owen McCarthy:And so I was like, you know, naturally, I'm gonna talk to Nancy Rhodes. And so I talked to Nancy Rhodes, and and she's got a lot of a lot of thoughts about interim administrators and sort of the implications. But she's not someone who's just pontificating to pontificate. She knows what it's like to have interim administrators. Okay?
Owen McCarthy:So so last year at one point, Nancy Rhodes had an interim department chair who reported to an interim college dean, who reported to an interim provost, who reported to an interim president. And so she told me she had interim administrators, quote, as far as the eye could see.
Alex Walters:Like a nesting though. Like a nestings.
Owen McCarthy:That's right.
Alex Walters:So what about you know, this is riveting stuff thus far. Our listeners are on the edge of their seats talking about all these interim administrators. Why why should anyone care about that? I don't under like, why is this bad? Is this an issue?
Alex Walters:Tell me, you know, what do people tell you about these interims?
Owen McCarthy:Yeah. Well, let's stick with Nancy Rhodes for a moment. You know, in her experience, you know, she said that when she had those people in the temporary roles at at every possible level, you know, she recalled feeling like, quote, our unit was adrift and treading water. She said there was no direction, nothing unifying us. And that was sort of a through line is that, you know, when faculty members told me when they are working under a bunch of interims, they you know, it's it's a little bit hard to put a ton of faith and trust in these people, because these people sort of feel like they need to tide the department over rather than doing anything in in incredibly, you know, necessary or bold because they're just thinking, well, I'm just here, you know, in the meantime, and we're and someone else is gonna come in who's, like, been sought out to do this job.
Owen McCarthy:But I'm just here, to help out in the meantime, and then I'm out.
Alex Walters:So is it sort of like a self censorship? Like, these interns, they're not gonna make these big decisions because they feel I'm only here for a minute. It's just not my place. Yeah.
Owen McCarthy:That's a good question. You know, there's nothing in any university policy that says, if interim isn't isn't your title, you are stripped of some of the responsibilities, or duties of someone who doesn't have the interim thing. It's more so when you, you know, when you know that you're not gonna be in it for the long haul and someone else is coming to take it, you just might feel like, you know, I'm not the person to to a courtesy. Exactly. Exactly.
Alex Walters:So if if this there's some sort of consensus amongst these people who work for the interims that there are issues with having interim leaders, especially at, like, the highest levels or, like, as far as the eye can see, like, Nancy Rhodes told you. Right. Why why are there so many? Why is MSU, you know, having so many interims if it's people feel it's problematic?
Owen McCarthy:Yeah. I mean, first, I should say, you know, MSU is not an anomaly. Across higher education, this has been, you know, there there's been national reporting in The Chronicle that a good story about this. You know, basically, colleges across, universities across the nation have have had this this interim issue, if you wanna call it that. And so MSU is not incredibly unique in that, but, you know, it is worth mentioning that at MSU, this, you know, this trend that sort of started in 2020 with the great resignation in COVID, you know, that trend has not really subsided at MSU.
Owen McCarthy:We still have this this, prevalence of of interim leadership. And a lot of people sort of told me, you know, Anna Pecke Gordon, for example, sort of a faculty
Alex Walters:Very outspoken professor.
Owen McCarthy:Exactly. You know, I think she spelled it out really well. You know, she said in her view, the reason for it at MSU is that, quote, I think that the number of interim administrators at all levels and all colleges and departments is a reflection of the turbulence and turmoil that MSU has been facing for a long time. She continued, this is a symptom of a very significant problem that administration isn't really working. And so I think that's also a good, you know, jumping off point to say, I I mentioned 2020 as being a time when when the interim leadership, you know, had an uptick, and that is true.
Owen McCarthy:But, also, interim leadership was happening at MSU before then. You know, Larry Nassar scandal, there was a ton of turnover at that point. So there's this perception that MSU, you know, of course, even last year, we were reporting the whole year about, you know, the board. We've had presidents, resign, which opened up a need for an interim leadership because they couldn't get along with the board.
Alex Walters:Mhmm.
Owen McCarthy:And so there's this feeling at MSU that the interim thing is is also caused by just sort of turmoil and turbulence.
Alex Walters:Yeah. Not just these kind of, like, sector wide
Owen McCarthy:Exactly.
Alex Walters:With the great resignation. Exactly. I mean, but with that specific stuff, the kinda company line right now, like the narrative, at least that the board has been pushing, is that with Kevin Guskwitz, this new president, this one's gonna stick. He's a permanent leader. Finally, all this Nassar turnover and whatnot, we've got our guy, and he's gonna be around.
Alex Walters:It's the same thing they said about Sam Stanley a couple years ago. You know? But if you believe it, if you buy into it, and you say that, like, this guy's here for the long haul
Owen McCarthy:Yeah.
Alex Walters:Is there an appetite that with his kind of more stable permanent leadership at the very top of the president's office, But below that, we're gonna get rid of all these interims at the dean level, college level, VP level.
Owen McCarthy:Yeah. Absolutely. I would say there is, and and he himself has said that that is, you know, part of is a priority of his. He told me that when I was able to ask because he's also not a stranger to the to the interim question. When he was at the chancellor at u a UNC, you know, he told me that there was actually, like, I I mentioned kind of since 2020, the the 14 interim dean appointments.
Owen McCarthy:It was a very similar number. He had experienced in the deanships a lot of turnover and interim leadership there as well. And so, you know, and he's someone who, you know, has a background in in academia. He told me he'd actually read the chronicle story. And and when I told him kinda faculty had been telling me about feeling like units were lacking a direction, he was very receptive to it.
Owen McCarthy:Mhmm. He acknowledged it, and he basically said, so, you know, I was brought in to bring stability. But but but he was saying that, you know, also, we wanna make sure we have permanent leadership, you know, below me as well. And he even said that, he's expecting the university is expecting to make a couple announcements of some permanent people who will be replacing interims in the coming months. So Just
Alex Walters:something to keep our eyes peeled for.
Owen McCarthy:Yeah. We're gonna be we're gonna be watching.
Alex Walters:Well, then what about this? So, obviously, in that perfect world, every leader is there forever, and there's a, you know, suite of immortal college administrators and one ever leaves.
Owen McCarthy:Yeah.
Alex Walters:But, you know, in the real world that we live in, people resign and they go other places and whatnot. There are inevitably going to be some interims, even if they can get, you know, some of this turnover reduced. Are there things you encountered where people talked about things an interim can do to, you know, not upset the people working better than kind of like a best practice for interims, harm reduction perhaps.
Owen McCarthy:Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, with every faculty member I spoke to, the the through line was that, you know, generally, when we hear there's an interim, we're not all that enthusiastic. We generally feel that having the the scale of interim leadership at MSU that we do is is not a good thing, but they were also able to single out interim, leaders that they had worked under a lot of times kind of at that that lower, like, college department level.
Owen McCarthy:Mhmm. They were able to single out people who they said, this this interim leader, they weren't here for long, but but we remember them because they were especially effective. And so, you know, there's sort of on the flip side of the coin. There's this argument that some interim leaders know especially the key distinction is interim leaders who aren't gunning for the permanent position. They're not trying to set themselves up for that.
Owen McCarthy:They're just like, I'm here now, and I think there's some things that need to change. And so I, you know, I'm not beholden. It's almost like if you think about a politician, like, everything they do Like a lame duck. Exactly. They're thinking, I'm just here for for a little bit, and I'm gonna make these decisions that I see to be incredibly necessary, and I'm gonna be bold and and and then I'll be out.
Owen McCarthy:And so some people said that, you know, there's interim leaders who can do that. So that's one thing to keep in mind.
Alex Walters:Almost like the opposite of this, you know, reluctant interim is the interim with no reelection concerns Yeah. Who, it it sounds like is making decisions that people want that may be unpopular. Right.
Owen McCarthy:And it's almost like there's these these far, you know, a spectrum when it comes to interim leadership. You know, there's a PhD student at MSU by the name of Jessica Wagner, who's also a librarian here, who told me, you know, interim leaders can be incredibly effective or not. And I remember she really paused, and she and she said there is really not a good in between. So you're exactly right. It is an opposite.
Owen McCarthy:You know, there's there's the people who sort of self censor and say, I'm just gonna defer until the permanent person comes in and they can do what they want. And then there's the people who are saying, you know, I don't like how things are, and I'm gonna be here for a little bit. So I'm gonna go in and and change things. So so that's one thing to keep in mind. Another thing Jessica Wagner sorta suggested to me is that maybe, you know, MSU and everywhere across the country would do well to just ask the interim word at the start of these titles.
Owen McCarthy:Even if it's someone who technically is serving in an interim capacity and there's an ongoing, you know, national search for a permanent person, you know, it it really does no good to call them an interim because, you know, she basically said, interim means that you don't have as much power. This is a quote. You don't feel like you have as much power and those around you don't think you have as much power either. How you label this person may actually affect how they're perceived. So she said just do away with the interim work.
Owen McCarthy:Interesting.
Alex Walters:Alright. Well, Owen, thank you for coming on and talking us through this story. Yeah. Great to have you as always.
Owen McCarthy:Yeah. Thanks so much, Alex.
Alex Walters:Alright. Next up, we have our 2nd guest, Summer. Welcome to the show. It's good to have you.
Somer Sodeman:First time. Yeah. Happy to be here.
Alex Walters:And so tell us, you know, you're talking about Survivor on campus. Right. Talk about Survivor off campus. For those who have they have no idea. Survivor, what is that?
Somer Sodeman:Okay. So if you've been living under a rock, Survivor, we're going into the 47th season. I wanna say tomorrow. It's this reality TV show where all these islanders, they're split into about 3 different tribes. They're starving on the island.
Somer Sodeman:There's a social aspect of the game. They're competing in the challenges. And then each week, they're voting somebody off, and that's until we get to the merge. After the merge, everybody who goes home gets to the jury. Once at the final tribal council, you will be voting for the winner.
Alex Walters:Wow. And are you a fan of
Somer Sodeman:the show? Oh, absolutely. Big fan.
Alex Walters:I see. So how then tell me. I'm hearing about starving on an island, juries, elimination. How does this translate to a campus club that you stumbled upon?
Somer Sodeman:Right. It's definitely a little bit different. They are not gonna be starving on an island, so there's no
Alex Walters:No starving.
Somer Sodeman:No starving. So it's mostly just the social aspect of the game as well as the certain challenges that they do. So I wanna say, like, once a week, they're all given a probably, like, a Slack or some sort of message that, hey. Behind Ericsson or wherever it's gonna be, we're gonna have our challenge. So make sure you're there tonight at 9:30.
Somer Sodeman:And then they have, I wanna say, like, a challenge coordinator in the club who's planning these challenges. They'll compete the challenges. Whichever tribe loses, they're gonna be going to the tribal council, and that one's usually gonna be on Sunday nights. And that that's the one they do behind Ericsson. They have the torches.
Somer Sodeman:But, yeah, it's definitely not you're not starving. It's more so with the social aspect of the game.
Alex Walters:And are the challenges these island survival challenges from the show, or are they sort of translated to the college setting?
Somer Sodeman:They're a little bit translated to the college setting, but also pretty similar. Obviously, there's a budget difference, so they're not doing these, like, hugely elaborate challenges. But I wanna say they're, they always have the puzzle element that's very similar to the TV show. And then, they have it's mostly like a what's the course called? The
Alex Walters:Like a like a obstacle course?
Somer Sodeman:An obstacle course. Yes. Exactly. It's just like that.
Alex Walters:I see. And these these are clandestine meetings? Is this secret? Or you or anyone could go, participate, watch?
Somer Sodeman:As anybody can go and watch. And so when I watched when I sat in at the tribal council just to see kinda what it's like, there was a lot of people there who were like, oh, hey. You're just here to watch too. So a lot of people just to
Alex Walters:just to observe.
Somer Sodeman:Just to watch.
Alex Walters:Just to
Somer Sodeman:see the game kinda play out and everything. People are really, like, just, like, infatuated with the idea of game shows. Not all of them love Survivor specifically. Some of them love, Big Brother. A lot of them are kinda CBS reality TV shows.
Somer Sodeman:And it's not just that these clubs that they're it's not just this club where they're kind of, taking it outside of the TV show. They're also doing online forums, I guess, where they're playing in games on their own time too with less people
Owen McCarthy:around the
Alex Walters:world. Participate in it. This isn't even the only fake survivor that they are in?
Somer Sodeman:Right. Some of them are new. They kinda love survivor. If they just, they're freshman at MSU. They're like, yeah.
Somer Sodeman:Why not? Let's join it. But, I wanna say some of the members who have been in it, a little bit later on in their college experience here. They have been doing, like, all sorts of, kind of recreation of reality TV show games.
Alex Walters:Really? Yeah. And so someone's listening to the 19 09, and they're fascinated by this. They're like, I need to see this. You can how do they find out where these meeting spots are?
Alex Walters:How do they go watch?
Somer Sodeman:Yeah. So I wanna say start with MSU Survivor or Survivor MSU. You can find them on Instagram. You can probably find them on Facebook, and they have, they should have, like, a link on their Instagram to where to, kinda chat and get in the loop with everything. But also they're constantly posting on their Instagram of, like, hey.
Somer Sodeman:Come here if you wanna see this challenge or come here if you wanna see the tribal council.
Alex Walters:And, obviously, the the game show on television, you have your your host that kinda takes the audience through it. Is there a similar presentation I go to wherever they're meeting on campus? Is there a host that, like, takes me through this?
Somer Sodeman:Yes. I was definitely you would ask this question. So, the host that they have is Ava Balag, and she is, a major in theater, and she minors in broadcast journalism. So this she even said in a quote that she thinks that hosting is tailor made for her. And since she was little, she's always wanted to be on TV.
Somer Sodeman:She wanted to be a home shopping host, and she even opens up the tribal council with the same script that Jeff Probst uses. So she opens it saying let me find her exact quote right here. She said, this is tribal council where each week one member will be voted off the island. In this game, fire represents your life. This is a part of the ritual of tribal council because in this game, fire represents your life when you're gone.
Somer Sodeman:When your fire is gone, so are you. And so then she It's
Alex Walters:really traumatic.
Somer Sodeman:Yeah. It's really dramatic. And then when somebody gets voted out, she snuffs their torch. And it's very much the same theatrics as the game that as the
Alex Walters:And what happens? You get voted out. She extinguishes your torch. You can't play anymore? You're you're done?
Somer Sodeman:You're done. Wow. That is until you make it to the merge. If you make it to the merge, then you're a part of the jury. And so the jury, you kinda have to stay quiet during the tribal councils you're observing, but then you get this power at the end of the game where you get to vote who the winner is.
Alex Walters:So the people who were eliminated are the people who choose the winner?
Somer Sodeman:Yes. Post merge. It's definitely something to get you.
Owen McCarthy:Or is
Alex Walters:that something from the show or just from the other version?
Somer Sodeman:From the show.
Alex Walters:I see. Yeah. What about all this hosting, Torch's, pediatrics, and whatnot? Obviously, you gotta go see it live. But, I mean, it's like the show is like a films, television show.
Alex Walters:Are they filming this? Is there gonna be an MCU version of Survivor I can watch if I'm, you know, if I've seen all 45 seasons of the original?
Somer Sodeman:Yeah. So they are filming all of this. They film it very similar to how the actual show. They do the confessionals. And so they've been saying
Alex Walters:the reality show thing where they sit they talk to the
Somer Sodeman:camera about, like, the kinda on the contestants. And the contestants, like, they are not having to badger the contestants at all saying, like, hey, guys. Make sure you're doing their confessionals. These contestants are, like, they're excited to be
Alex Walters:filmed. They're into not just the kinda game of it, but also the kinda reality drama.
Somer Sodeman:Yep. Yeah.
Alex Walters:Is there, like like, social drama? Like, I don't wanna
Somer Sodeman:do shows. I was really trying to see if there was any drama. I think with this past winner, I wanna say her name is Liz Bray. She kinda told me a little bit about the drama. She talked about having to kinda play up or play down her game with the men on the tribes just saying, like, oh, I don't know what to do and just kind of, like, seeming like a girl and under distress.
Somer Sodeman:Like, help me figure out how to win this game. And then just kinda use that to advance and make make it seem like she didn't know what she was doing so that they would help her. And then she eventually voted them out.
Alex Walters:Wow. And And is the social aspect the like, isn't like, I feel like alliance is, like, a survivor thing. I've heard. Do you Yeah. Are they alliance and whatnot?
Somer Sodeman:Oh, yeah. And they even told stories of, like, some of the ways they've gotten group members to join this club is that they'll be in the library and somebody will overhear 2 people talking like, hey. Do you wanna be in alliance? And they'll be like, why are 2 people talking in the library about, like, having an alliance together? So, yeah, I think they'll whether or not you're going to have, like, a study group with somebody, you're if you're doing that with somebody who's playing the game right now, you're working together on how to advance in the game.
Somer Sodeman:Or if you're going to a frat party and other people are going there
Alex Walters:too with your alliance. Right. Really? It goes outside the game.
Somer Sodeman:Yep.
Alex Walters:Wow. That's crazy. So when when can we watch? I mean, this is fascinating. These MSU students doing the survivor, the alliances, the drama.
Alex Walters:When when can we watch it?
Somer Sodeman:Now I'm curious with that also. They've been saying that it's gonna be released. I think last fall, they're like, get ready guys. This fall, we're gonna release it. They haven't released it yet.
Alex Walters:Tension, I'm sensing.
Somer Sodeman:Yeah. There's some tension. There's also I think the production members, they're obviously not getting paid, so they have all this footage, all these confessionals to go through and then also the footage of, like, the challenges, the tribal councils. So it's a lot of stuff to have to divide up into episodes. Although, I will say that there is out on YouTube.
Somer Sodeman:I think if you search up Survivor MSU, there is, like, a trailer you can watch from season 1.
Alex Walters:I see. But it's it's interesting that they still haven't released. People are waiting.
Somer Sodeman:Yeah. People are waiting. They're filming everything, but yet they haven't they have yet to kinda go back and edit for season. But I will say they talked about, U of M. U of M is, like, a few seasons ahead of us right now.
Alex Walters:And they guys is there even longer, this Survivor thing?
Somer Sodeman:They've had it longer. I wanna say, Maryland has also had it. Ohio, they're on later seasons, but they too are also behind on getting things out. So it's not just, like, an MSU thing.
Alex Walters:The sector wide issue, it sounds like, is this editing problem.
Somer Sodeman:Right. So I think Michigan just either released their 1st or second season of it, and they're on maybe, like, 11 or 12 seasons. That could be wrong. But
Alex Walters:Well, well, I'll be eagerly awaiting
Owen McCarthy:Yeah.
Alex Walters:However long it takes. Thank you, Summer, for taking us inside this this bizarre club. It's great to hear about it. So that's all for this week, but we will be back next week with fresh reporting from the great minds here at the state news. Until then, the stories we discussed today and plenty more are available at state news dot com.
Alex Walters:Thank you to my guests, Owen and Summer, and our amazing new podcast coordinator, Taylor. And most of all, thank you for listening. For the 19 09, I'm Alex Walters.