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We share stories of how the blood of Jesus has transformed ours and others' lives.
Like, so you were seeking variety and you were looking for a certain type of sexually varied experience and it's hard to be attracted to things that aren't on that level. I became only attracted to psychopathic men and I could feel no attraction to neurotypical men. So, instead of it being a sexual, specific sexual experience in the sense of the sexual act, I couldn't be attracted to a certain romantic experience.
Wow. And that is affecting many, many, many women. And people are not talking about that a lot. Psychopathy is being normalized. I would even argue that the cool girl trope is a psychopath when you actually look at the characteristics of her. She is a psychopath. She has no emotional needs. She's reckless.
Sociopathy, most of them have a crazy high death rate because they die from doing like crazy reckless things. things. You know what I mean? They don't crave long term relationships. The cool world doesn't. You just, you look at her and she's really a psychopath. And so people are trying to imitate psycho.
Men are trying to imitate psychopaths because I don't think there's as many psychopaths around us as people allege. Yeah. So men are trying to imitate the cool boy who's a psychopath to please women. Girls are trying to imitate a psychopath, the cool girl to please men. Everybody's pretending to be a psychopath, but most people aren't.
And they're all walking around looking like. Hey
everybody, welcome to the Red Ledger. Today I have Aaron Dorsey and Tyler Bell joining me and we are going to talk about a few interesting subjects starting with porn addiction. Whoa. I didn't know that's what we're talking about. Starting strong. We are going to talk today a little bit about porn addiction.
Now this is something you've struggled with. Can you share your story with us a little bit? So, first time I ever watched porn, like most people, was like 11 years old. About my age anyways, it's a pretty common story. Um, just had some friends show me it, pretty regular video, nothing crazy. Just was like, whoa, it's, what?
You know what I mean? Um, and then I kind of abstained from it for a while. Um, cause I was just like, obviously it feels wrong, but like, you know, it's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Like I knew something was wrong about it. You know, I probably should be watching this. Like I had no, I would probably get in trouble if I was caught watching this, you know, or something.
Um, but you know, you get older hormones start kind of going and you know, men, the boys around then start talking about it and just kind of becomes a thing and then starts to become more acceptable in your mind. And then, um, You know, and it's not really something like everybody talks about, but you know, maybe some like close friends And then it just becomes like this normalized kind of feeling So really just like probably 13 after that for I don't know probably good 10 years was like pretty consistent If not once today multiple times a day, so you Thought about it till you did it?
Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was kind of, it just, I just kind of didn't think about it and then it started popping up in social bubbles. And then I was like, Oh, okay. So maybe this isn't that bad, you know? Um, and then, you know, you just get older and those, those hormones start going and you start feeling more, you know, wanting that, whatever.
Did you feel any conviction from God on it? Um, yeah, I just don't think I was like thinking that deep about it, you know, just like being young. You just don't think about like God's opinion on it so much more like. And you don't think long term necessarily either. Like I don't know when I thought about doing anything as a kid, I wasn't playing the tape out like how might this affect me?
Affect me. I can do that now as like an adult, but as a child you're just like, it feels good in the moment, let's freaking go for it, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just like became something that like, became almost routine and um, I think probably a stress response as well and um, just kind of carried on for a long time.
Could you touch on that a little bit more? Just 'cause I'm curious, like, um, talking to Billy was a stress response for me. Yeah. The porn was like secondary to that. Yeah. But for you. Um, would you feel stressed and then feel like you were less stressed afterwards? Like did you notice that? It was actually more of like probably a validation thing.
Like the stress of like being accepted or stress of being people like pleasing people. I felt like that I could kind of simulate that experience in like a fantasy in my head or something. Right. Yeah. I could be like accepted or, you know, or validated. No one can say no to you there. Yeah, a little bit, like, you know, like I'm not being rejected because I felt like over time as I continued watching porn, uh, my view and not like, Like, I felt like women could just read it off me, you know, like it wasn't much of like a, I wasn't coming off like a creep, you know what I mean, but like maybe sometimes here and there, you know, because I didn't know or understand, but like, it just came off and I felt like I was, became so desperate and I used that to supplement it and then it just became worse and worse and worse.
And you mean desperate in terms of like sexual desires? Yeah, yeah, even, even just like, like validation, like romantically, you know. As you just keep going, more extreme content gets thrown in your way. And then you start to develop some pretty niche and weird fetishes, right? So did it escalate in your relationships?
Uh, yeah, like I, I became interested in certain things. I was never really into like the, um, super crazy stuff. Like, well, some pretty crazy stuff, but not like ultra, ultra crazy stuff. You know what I mean? Just stuff that like, maybe your average watcher would be like, Oh, that's pretty intense that you watch that all the time or, um, but like, it was never like the, um, like the BDSM stuff.
I was never really into that, but I don't know. Just for clarity. Yeah. It just, it just kind of kept growing. And then it was like new ways to like, Like for like shock value a little bit and it would just, you know, you kind of crave kind of like that next step a little bit. Yeah. That next level of a hit.
Yeah. Yeah. Just bigger dopamine hit. And then, um, I'd never really understood it as a problem. And I just, my, my conscious was seared about it. You know, I just didn't really think about it too much. Um, until I got into a serious relationship with my current fiance and And it was like, it wasn't so like immediately just like hit right there, but I could kind of start to see, like, I started getting closer to God.
So I felt more convicted to like pursue a godlier lifestyle. Um, and in that, you know, like I didn't have like Christian content on my TikTok. And I started getting scared of hell because I thought I could lose my salvation at a certain point. And I was like, I gotta stop this, I gotta get my works right.
And then, you know, you see a bunch of content about like, how hard it is for men to stop, like, start trying to quit porn and watching and like, lusting over women in their day to day life and stuff like that. Um, yeah. So it was just kind of like, uh, inspiring to kind of see like, Oh, so this is what people are dealing with.
I should probably get on top of this. And then the relationship got more serious. We started talking about marriage. We started talking about these things. And then, um, I was like, I really, like, if we're going to go down this road, I have to take care of this because I can't have this bleed into our relationship because I don't know what it could lead into.
Yeah. Yeah. I was pretty honest with her about it. Um, I have, uh, honesty problems. If you didn't catch that on the oversharing podcast, but, um, like, and, and she was so supportive. So like, God bless her and think very appreciative to be with a woman that has such grace over something like that. And to understand it and just be appreciative that, like, Almost every man my age is probably watching porn right now.
I appreciate that you're actually trying to get over it and putting steps forward to do it. Does she express with you how it makes her feel? Um, a little bit, but not really. I think that it is sensitive and it's kind of like an odd topic. I think, like, I know it probably makes her feel some type of way, you know what I mean?
Um, especially that I have a problem with it, you know? Um, and it's gotten better, you know? It's like I used to be watching it, you know, three times a day. Really? No, it's yeah. Yeah. For it. Like that's not even that much. It's not. Yeah. When I wake up. I have no idea what I mean. There was a time where this can be a like the worst that was, was like seven times a day.
Cause I was like, just bored. Like I didn't do anything all day. So like, you know, morning lunch before I go to bed and it was like a routine, you know? Yeah. It was kind of just like routine as part of my daily thing. And I was like, cool. And again, if it's, if it's a way to manage stress, you know what I mean?
And think about other things that we do to manage stress, eating. How many times do people snack a day? You know what I mean? I, when I'm stressed, I drink a coffee. I can drink up to 10 cups of coffee a day. You know what I mean? So like, when it becomes something that, especially if, I mean, for some people that it, I don't know if this is too graphic, but for some people it's an hours long event.
Not everybody's like that though. So if it's something that happens faster, yeah, you have plenty of times during the day. It's like smoking a cigarette. You know what I mean? Like you can get a bunch of I don't think I've ever looked at it that way. And so for those of you who don't know or haven't watched our shows previously with Erin on them, she was digitally trafficked is what we're calling that, right?
And subsequently sexually abused by this groomer. And so she has really delved into this subject and want to, wants to really help other people from the same fate. So she's sharing her story in previous podcasts and her own channel on Aaron's journal, YouTube, if you want to go look for it. But that's why she seems to know so much about this, um, which is interesting.
And I think we're undereducated on sex, you know what I mean? So. Um, a lot of like women that I've talked to because I tend to talk to women more than men. Um, they'll tell me something and they'll think that I'm just going to be like really shocked. But the thing they end up telling me is actually like so common and so normal.
And so like when you're describing this, you know what I mean? Because I was shocked you were not, I just looked and it's, and that makes sense because like Okay. We're not talking about it a lot. And again, I'm not encouraging a society where it's like, all we do is overshare about our sex lives with strangers.
That's not what I'm talking about. But there's just a lack of discussion in this area, even in the therapy community. When you go to therapy, you don't necessarily talk about your sex life unless you go to literally sex therapy, you know? So anyway, but yeah, within this sphere of, And from what I've learned, even just from videos I've watched on like porn addiction and sex addiction, like, yeah, it's, you start to just see the patterns and how it's similar to any other addiction, you know, when you take the, the sexual aspect of it out, you know what I mean?
Like people are shocked by, Oh my gosh, it's like a lot of sex. And it's like, yeah, but think about any other drug and how many times a day you think about that drug and want to use that drug. So he has shared with me in past that this. was a struggle. And so in my head, I thought, well, maybe once or twice a week or something.
Yeah. That's where it's at now. You know what I mean? Personally, like that. And it's interesting. Like what you said earlier about like the time spent doing it, the less that I do it more frequently, the longer I draw out that experience for myself. Right. Which I find just kind of interesting. Yeah. No, it is interesting.
Yeah. Um, do you find you put Weird expectations on your fiance fiance because of what you've seen or think is normal So it's interesting like yesterday what you were talking about fantasy and like there's like that was like I knew it But it was a little more eye opening to have like words put to like that thought because I know it's so unfair I know Just yeah, just a quick recap.
It's in like the other video we posted for my interview yesterday, but essentially like There's a fantasy that's cultivated through this stuff and girls can get addicted to the fantasy through erotica reading, by the way, like even, um, a female that I've talked to in the past, like, you know, she talked about how she used to be addicted to porn and then moved into reading instead.
I think for women, stories are more addictive and for men, the visual aspect of things is more addictive, but girls can absolutely be addicted to porn. But I think women toward. tend to gravitate more towards stories. But, um, either way, when you cultivate an unrealistic fantasy for yourself from absorbing fantasy based content, we start wanting that to emerge in our real life.
So, girls want this sort of fantasy from the love stories that they've watched, whether it's, like, Disney movies, rom coms, whatever it is, they start, yeah, they want stuff like that. They want a guy who just chases them around like crazy while they push them away. You know what I mean? Like no matter how many times they reject him, he keeps coming cause he just can't stay away.
He's like a moth to a flame, you know, and then they fall in love and then it's just good forever because you never find out how the relationship goes for the next five years cause the movie ends. Right. So like, what are you supposed to do after the honeymoon stage? Girls don't know. They usually just break up with them and move on to the next.
guy. You know what I mean? And then for guys, there's the fantasy of porn and men develop a very unrealistic standard, whether they realize it or not for what they want from women. And what that is typically is us not having any emotional needs, us essentially just being this porn star girl because the girls in porn don't have emotional needs.
They don't. shame or reject the guy. They don't have any standards for what they prefer, right? They're down for anything because that's what, whatever the video is about, that's what they're down for. So men tend to, um, become displeased with women and form resentment against women sometimes. Um, and even girls can do this resentment against guys when that fantasy isn't being fulfilled instead of blaming the fantasy and recognizing it as completely unrealistic as something that maybe could happen in real life once or twice, but is not sustainable.
Long term. You can't have sex like that all the time. Long term. You know what I mean? Like to a woman. Yeah, there's so many aspects to it where it's like, It's not the girl's fault if the porn video can't be perfectly replicated in the bedroom. So instead of, but instead of getting mad at the fantasy for girls or for guys, people are getting mad at each other.
They're saying, Oh, it's her fault or it's his fault that my Hallmark movie or my porn video didn't come true. I need to go look somewhere else. You know, so interesting. So I, my friend gave me these, um, vampire erotica, which I didn't understand. That's what they were probably about, I don't know, maybe four or five years ago.
And I started reading this weird, I, this is so embarrassing that I'm sharing this. I can't even remember. She would know cause she had a hard time letting him go. I'm like, is it freaking twilight? No, it was like, it was this whole thing. It was this whole family. And they, anyway, sounds like twilight. Yeah, it was, but I think it's older than that.
And so. It was so funny because I would become an, this is a Christian channel, but this really happened, right? I became very sexually charged and I apologize that you had to hear that. And my husband, my husband was sleeping and was, did not get understand where I was. And then I felt like that was a rejection of me.
And he's not in the same place because he didn't read the dumb, and I didn't even look at it as, You're not a vampire. Yes. Yeah. Why can't you be a beefy vampire? Why aren't you biting my neck? And he's so in love with her. Yeah. But it is so silly how I created this whole fantasy of how my husband should be on a vampire.
I know it's embarrassing to say. Yeah, no, but this is what happens. This is literally what happens. And I was, I remember laying there angry at him. Yeah. Yeah. And how could he sleep through this? So now you know how men feel. With porn. Like it's a way to connect a bridge. You know what I mean? Instead of women being mad at men like, oh they watch porn and they reject me, screw them.
It's like, but do you not do the same thing in a different way? Like what expectations do you have of men that are completely unrealistic? Especially in the world today where the world's just like annihilating men's characters and put it, propping women up like they're flawless. You know, women can have their own fantasy addictions for sure, yeah.
Did you relate to what she said? Yeah, yeah, so like, it's interesting like, In my relationship like as I've noticed it like when you're like watching porn It's usually like scrolling to find the video that you like and then it's like, okay I got enough from this girl to the next video and dopamine dopamine dopamine dopamine dopamine And it becomes like a seek for variety, I guess right?
So obviously you don't get that when you're in a committed relationship you get one person that you're supposed to have a loving, committed relationship with. With their own limitations. With their own limitations. And like, that, that, like, it's designed that way for a reason, right? Like it's, it's beautiful.
It's good. It's like, it's healthy. Um. It pushes you to grow. I know how. In my mind, these, like, like, I can see, like, in my mind, like, this is unfair to her right now. So, I don't really, like, the only, I think the way that I let it out is my ability to participate sometimes. Like, I feel like sometimes it's hard for me to, like, want to engage in a sexual act because, you know, maybe, like, I had watched it recently and I just feel like it's, I'm just not there ready to have this experience with you right now.
Or, I'm From the guilt? Um, it's more about, like, Because it can't be the fantasy that you just experienced. Yeah, sometimes. Yep. Um, and sometimes, like, it's, it's, like, Like it bleeds into like my, cause like I'm seeking variety, it bleeds into my ability for attraction. Sure. So, and it's not anything that has to do with her.
It's, it's like it has everything to do with me. And how can she not feel like it's her? Exactly. So she ends up feeling rejected because sometimes maybe like I don't want to engage in that way or like I'm, Like battling in my head about like this is messed up like I can't be doing this or this is wrong You know, yeah, and I end up being upset with myself and having shame and guilt Imagine that but then in the female version of it I was only like so you were seeking variety and you were looking for a certain type of sexually It's hard to be attracted to things that aren't on that level.
I became only attracted to psychopathic men, and I could feel no attraction to neurotypical men. Wow. So, instead of it being a sexual, specific sexual experience in the sense of the sexual act, I couldn't be Attracted to a certain romantic experience. Wow. And that is affecting many, many, many women. Yeah.
And people are not talking about that a lot. Yeah. Psychopathy is being normalized. I would even argue that the cool girl trope is a psychopath when you actually look at the characteristics of her. I would agree with that. She is a psychopath. She has no emotional needs. She's reckless. Sociopathy, most of them have a crazy high death rate because they die from doing like crazy reckless things.
You know what I mean? They don't crave long term relationships. Perhaps. The cool girl doesn't. You just, you look at her and she's really a psychopath. And so people are trying to imitate psycho. Men are trying to imitate psychopaths because I don't think there's as many psychopaths around us as people allege.
So men are trying to imitate the cool boy who's a psychopath to please women. Girls are trying to imitate a psychopath, the cool girl to please men. Everybody's pretending to be a psychopath, but most people aren't. And we're all walking around looking like. That's a trip. I had not thought about it like that.
That is something to chew on. That is something to chew on. You're right. That's awesome. Yeah. That is cool though. It's interesting. It is, but I still struggle with being attracted to neurotypical men. Yeah. Yeah. Because they're boring. They don't stimulate. He's talking about stimulation. They don't stimulate me.
They don't stimulate me. And I'm not going to say that to a man. I'm not going to be like, you don't stimulate me. Do you think it's because your first experiences were with this? Yes. And not just, not just him. 10 years of my life. That type of man. 10 years. That's your normal. Yeah. So you have to rewire the experience that rewired your.
Imagine if you had. This is your normal. Exactly. This is my traumatic experience. Like. How many years with porn? When do you feel like it reached the crazy sexual variant stage? How many years in that? Ooh, probably, uh. seven or eight. Yeah. Just be aware you are rewiring your brain, you know, and I really think about that with myself too.
Every time I reject a psychopathic experience, I am rewiring my brain for the better. I might not be able to be attracted to neuro. Romans 12, 1. Romans 2. Yeah. Do you want to say it? That's the renewing of the mind. Where we don't want to be. Um, conformed to this world, but transformed by the renewing of our minds.
That's God rewiring us. Yes. And he can. So I, I try to be patient with myself because I'm still not able to be attracted to neurotypical men yet, but I am no longer, I'm significantly less attracted to psychopathic experiences. That is a huge step for me to the point where I don't crave them. And most of them turn me off.
So like, you can't change overnight. God can't always rewire overnight. You know what I mean? But like that, I know that that's a huge step for me. I don't know if I'll ever be able to be attracted to neurotypical men. I pray for that. But I understand from what you're describing, this is the female version of it in my opinion.
You know, so I relate to you. Like you want it taken away. It's like you said that also yesterday, it's something that we wake up and like, are like, like don't like ourselves about, but then we just do it because something kind of almost comes over us. And then like, You entertain the thought more than you should, and then it's just like, boom, I'm there.
Addiction. Yeah. Boom, I'm there. And it's like, in my head, I'm saying no, but my flesh is completely doing something different than I want to right now. And I know that it's sabotaging my life and my relationship right now. And that's where you see the pattern where all addictions kind of are the same. I don't want this thing anymore, and yet here I go towards it again.
You know what I mean? I don't want it, and yet here I go towards it. Yeah. It really is one of those things where. You know, NAA, they talk about admitting that you're powerless. They say admitting you're powerless over alcohol and that your life had become unmanageable. You can exchange alcohol for any substance, anything.
Um, and then the second step is, is giving that over to God. Yeah. You know what I mean? Um, but yeah, I mean, that's, that's the pattern with anything and it's really, really hard, but it's really rewarding when you can get there. But like, I was talking to your brother the other day. And we're talking about how it really feels like your brain's been on fire for a really long time.
And I've had enough time now to where it feels like my brain has cooled down. It's not a literal heat, but it's the only way word I have to describe how, and I'm only able to see it now that my brain's calmed down. I couldn't reckon because my brain had been on fire and overstimulated for so long. I didn't realize how On fire and overstimulated it was until it wasn't that way anymore, and I don't know if as you dwindle I don't know if you're there yet where you can feel that difference.
Yeah Neurological level I think it is hard because like I feel like I'm at a point where like the fire is still there Sure, so like well, you're still feeding it a bit. Yeah, I'm feeding it here and it's still like it's it's it's smaller than it Was yeah, but I still notice it even like, you know what I'm like Outside at the grocery store like like a restlessness.
What does it feel like like I feel like the like I am subconsciously like Looking and like, sometimes lusting at women, right? And I'm like, For a tiny bump. Yeah. Tiny hit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Uh huh. Yeah. And it sucks. Like, I, I, I, and I feel like a whole lot of shame and guilt because I'm involved with another person that I'm, like, doing this.
Who you love. Who I love. Who I care about. And it, and it, like, I feel like a monster a little bit, you know? Do you feel like you turn to the porn sometimes to relieve the shame and guilt? Yeah, well, sometimes, so what happens is, you know, sometimes like it'll be like two weeks, I'm good. And then something just pops up and it crumbles it down.
And I'm like, okay, well, I'm already down. Yeah. Let's just have a couple more. And then we'll try it again. I get it. Yeah. Yeah. And then just, yeah. Or, what's really hard, especially because what you get, can get tiny hits from, are visual. Mm hmm. And there's crazy visual. It's all in front of you. Everywhere.
Everywhere. This is where I really feel bad for men. You can't escape it. Even, even when you're like, say, not interested on your Instagram, and then it just pops up on some meme page, and they're not even following Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Go to the gym. Go to the gym. Yeah. We're close. Yeah. We're in Arizona. So, I mean, that's where I do feel bad for guys because, like, I'm not going to accidentally get a hit of alcohol unless I literally, you know what I mean?
Like, with so much of that stuff, you can breathe. For the most part, 100 percent abstain. But when it's like a visual thing that can trigger you to crave more. And that society told you was normal and okay. And then you build this thing up and then you learn it's wrong. You're like, oh man. Yeah. And yeah, you know.
And that's where Your eyes are the portals, man. I feel like there's obviously like, there's Alcoholics Anonymous. There's so many sex addicts anonymous. You're not necessarily a sex addict, but I wish there were more support groups for men trying to recover. And maybe there are online, but church groups, you know, are like, it is a big battle.
And I think like a lot of people are becoming hip to understanding that like it is a huge problem, destroying lives and marriages and families. Yeah. Just like every other addiction. Yes. There's so many addictions now. That's the main thing that I become aware of, like, Just talking to people in general, men or women, is I'm like, everyone seems to be an addict.
on some form in some kind of way. It just, yeah. I, I believe, right, we've been taught to, in, we're living in this hurting and broken world, and we're taught to reach towards anything but God first. If we really had been taught like we were in generations past, We go to God for prayer. We go to God when we're feeling stressed.
We go to God for our anxiety. Yeah. You know, my grandma used to say worry is a sin. And I never understood that until much later in life that worry separates us from God. Not resting on him. Stress separates us from God. Yeah. Anger separates us from God. All of these things separate us from him. Yeah. And make, The world has given us so many options to reach for instead of him.
And little, little treats, little pacifiers. I see them almost as pacifiers because it's like, you're not letting yourself be uncomfortable to grow. You know, like my friend, one of my friends doesn't really understand my sobriety and she's like, She just doesn't and that's where she's at right now, you know, but, um, when we've talked about it, I'm just like, you can talk smack all you want, but I bet I can emotionally regulate myself better than you can because I don't turn to a beer.
I sit in it and I just sit in it. You know what I mean? How many people are sitting in it now? Because they don't want us to, but I don't know who the day is, but I will say that there is a, an agenda of victimhood that we have talked about. even within the counseling community. Like let's stay here. Let's be a victim here.
You can see it all over social media instead of actually an overcoming agenda. Yeah, for sure. God is about the overcoming. Yeah. Right. But if we can sit in our victimhood, we can make excuses for our addictions. Like food is my issue. Yeah. You know, I, I, not anymore. Praise God. But, um, it's, you know, I'm here and we've been celebrating the engagement and There's been plenty of sugar and I'm, I'm went all in, but it's less shame and loathing and more like, okay, this happened.
Let's get back on the horse. Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of the mindset I'm framing. Like, okay, do it. But sometimes it's like, it's hard to be like, okay, let's do a bit in the back of my mind. I feel like I can, it might slip up next week because I'm used to it. I mean, I'm not saying it's her job to fix you and like, do you feel like you're doing Like there's periods where, where I'm like, you know, she'll ask and I'm honest, you know, um, and, but like, and, and, and it's nice to have that accountability, but sometimes like I'll avoid the conversation as much as I can.
It's like I don't want to bring it up because I feel like I'm letting you down and she she responds with such grace It's so well about it. You know, there's no condemnation about it. It's just I know Internally, I'm putting a lot of pressure on myself obviously because I know that bringing this into a marriage is just hard You know what?
I mean? Do you think some part of you is also avoiding? accountability at all Yeah, probably. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm not asking that to make you feel bad. Mm-Hmm. . You know what I mean? But I just, I've never been married, I've never been in a long-term relationship. Yeah. So that's where, that's completely outside of my realm.
Yeah. Um, there's obviously a fine line to walk where you're not entering into like codependency and stuff. Yeah. And someone fix. But you know, I would imagine if I was in a relationship with someone, they know I'm an alcoholic and I'm having cravings. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. I, in my, when I imagine it in my mind. If I want that accountability, I personally feel like I would let them know, Hey, just so they could pray for me.
Yeah. You know what I mean? Not to fix it. It's not their job. And I don't know if everyone would approach it that way. I don't know if that's an unhealthy thing to do, but just like that, you know, like when you first started, I thought, Oh, if Dave said something to me about my food, it would set me off and make me eat more.
Do you know what I mean? Everybody's different. You know, I like that accountability because I know how good I am at hiding. My my addictions. I'm so good at hiding it. I'm so good at talking myself into it, but that's me Not everyone is pretty like that. Yeah. Yeah like that, but I get the defense I even like I have a whole little carbohydrate closet that I hide stuff in the way back so he doesn't know that I've eaten all of it.
So I'm honest with it when it happens, but if we don't have to be honest about it, that was the main thing I was wondering about, you know, and again, none of us has said with judgment because it's hard getting sober from anything. It is so hard and everyone has to follow Their own journey with it, but first and foremost, it's with you and God, you know what I mean?
Because it cannot happen without him period Um, but sometimes if we feel like we're not We're totally, if it's just us and God, sometimes it's nice for there to be witnesses, you know, in whatever form. And it doesn't necessarily have to be your partner, but bringing in witnesses and accountability partners, I've found that helpful.
So this is what I've found with my issue sometimes. And this is what I'm curious with you guys. I wouldn't really pray for it to go away because I wasn't sure I really wanted it to. Yeah. I pray for it. I do now. And I even do it with a sincere heart. But it's hard to just like, want to let go of it. But how sincere was my heart?
Because like, okay, I do not want to be on this yo yo of 30 pounds back and forth. Like, that was my why. You know what? It's not real sincere. It's not just deep down, I want to be healed from going through my comfort. My why is I don't want to destroy my relationship, my marriage. You know, like, I know this.
I feel it. I'm praying for it. So it's more for the, do you feel like it's more for that than? Um, well, also for myself, cause I don't like, I don't want to view women that way. You know, I want them, like, I want to view them as a sister in Christ, you know what I mean? Like, I want that, you know, it's just, it's hard cause sometimes like, I'll just catch myself doing it and be like, why did I do that?
Like, I don't want them to feel that way, even if they could see how I was thinking. And it's like, it's so weird. Like, I just like, sometimes it feels like I have no control over it. Like, well, and I don't, you know what I mean? It just happens. Like, and I talk myself into it and it's like, This flesh in my brain telling me what to do, you know, what, what do you do practically that does work?
Um, well, I just learned it in church last week and I should probably get on my knees and pray in tongues You know what? I mean? I should really just pray it as hard as I can and fight it immediately and and I think in also entertaining that thought like In my head, cause like, or, or knowing in the day, like, I think early in the day, like, I know I'm going to do it.
I know that this is a day that I'm allowed, I'm going to allow myself to do it. Interesting. And, and, in my head, in, in my, my, my spirit's like, we're not doing this. But my flesh is like, we're going to do this today. Yeah, it's good to separate it out. Like the addict brainer, as you said, your flesh, giving it a separate identity is really good.
And, and I know that like, so I think like, it's so hard. Cause like, it's, I want to like have willpower to just take a step against it and just be like, No, it's not actually happened. I'm going to surround myself in the word of God today and do it, but I will sometimes ignore God or be like, I'm just not going to read my Bible till after and then repent after and feel bad about it after and feel sorry.
You know what I mean? And it's, it's such like a weird delusional thing I do in my head and is, I hate it, man. Tired of it. I've never, we've never had this depth of conversation. We knew, you know, and I prayed for you, but. It's so striking to me how similar all addiction is, like, I had no idea, honestly, whether it's a man, whether it's food, whether it's drugs, whether it's whatever spiritual pattern, spiritual pattern.
And if you really look at the pattern of Satan, he wants to change your identity. So through addiction, oftentimes you start feeling worthless. You know what I mean? So that identity gets changed. Self loathing. He wants to isolate you. You know what I mean? He isolated Eve in the garden. to sell her a story.
You get isolated in your addiction. You know what I mean? And then oftentimes he wants to create a feeling of entrapment. Addiction in and of itself creates a tie, but I think also that feeling of entrapment comes from like you feeling like you have done so much wrong. You know what I mean? That now you're almost like, owned by this thing, essentially, like, because you're not worthy to have the other life that you like strayed from.
But those three things you can really start to see like everywhere. And then you can also see it, how, how abuse works. You can see this come through people and abuse. You know what I mean? And I was just thinking, yeah, Satan is literally abusing us in this whole cycle. Like he is the narcissistic sociopath in this situation, doing the same tricks that you see.
Yeah, the men do that you were talking about in your predatory video. It's the exact same trick. Mm hmm. Yeah. Exact same thing. I'm going to find you and I'm going to find your weaknesses and exploit them and just shoot arrows one after the other. The one thing I was going to say for you is there's so many times I have had that apathy And I cannot count how many times I've, what I pray is for God to give me the willingness.
Yeah. He all literally talks so honestly with him. Like I used to hide from God in my sin and I've gotten a lot better about being like, even if I'm literally actively in something truly horrible, I'll still talk to him and I'll be like, I know that you're right here with me. I know that you see me. Just give me the willingness to not want this.
Help me. Help me not want this. Cause that's really the starting point is us in our hearts. We know that we want it. He knows that we want it. Yeah. So help me change my desire. And I've actually seen that work. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I pray that a lot. So I'm just, I'm just at the point where I'm just like waiting for it to happen, man.
And then try it, like trying to do as much willpower as I can, then you can't, you can only go so far doing that, obviously. So it's just like, it's just waiting for it. You know what I mean? To be patient. Yes. Just, yeah. Um, also something that I think that has helped for me in the past is like not entertaining the thought.
Like if you see it go and then you like change it, just change it, change it, change it, change it. That can also be rewiring for your brain, too. Yeah, for sure. Do you feel like it's hard to talk about this at all, or do you? Um, a little bit. Like, you know, not like, I won't bring it up, like, out of nowhere, but I will bring up probably, like, you know, I struggle with porn too, as my, like, two people, like, I'll try to bring it up, so, like, particularly to men, so they feel comfortable to talk about their experience, maybe.
Sure. You know, because I know like almost all of us struggle with it, you know what I mean? Yeah, so it's like, I'm trying to be a little bit more bold about that with men, you know? I just also didn't know if you, I assume you experienced this, but I wanted to ask you, like, I didn't really know I had a problem with stuff until I said no to it.
Like, I could easily convince myself it's not a problem because I was always saying yes. Did you experience that as well? Well, like, I had no idea it was that wrong. Like, I thought it was pretty acceptable and everybody else did it, so it was cool. And then it was like eight years of like building up to like this pretty hardcore stuff, you know what I mean?
And now I'm like, oh, now I actually want to stop because I understand it's bad, and now I'm like what do I do with all this, like, time I've been wiring my brain, you know? Yeah, it's a bummer. I'm happy I found it now. What if it was like Five more years into our marriage, you know, and I can't imagine trying to do it without God.
I just can't I don't think people do. Yeah. I mean, I think that's where the true enslavement entrapment happens is is without God Yeah, I think that's you know, I I know some christians who have made it through or not non christians I have friends on christian friends and they are truly white knuckling life.
Yeah Um, I will say one person in particular Every day is a struggle all day to get through it. You know, so you guys have been delivered to some degree, right? Yeah. Like, you for sure. Yes. With your substance. Yes. Where, It's not like a daily struggle, right? See, this is what God delivers us from. Yep. There's the freedom.
And he is still every morning, every day, he has to actively fight it all day long. And that, and then you still feel like you're in that identity. How can you feel freed from that identity? You know what I mean? When it's there in the back of your mind, like all the time. Wow. That's horrible. I'm still in recovery.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and this is the part I don't love about AA.
I think I know what you're going to say. Yeah, we're, we're delivered or we're not. I don't, I, I like the beginning, like we're powerless over this. Correct. In that moment. But at some point, do they say I have overcome? No, um, and I can see why you would disagree with that. You know what I mean? So yeah, I do love their success rate.
So I'm not going to fight it. It used to be a lot better actually. Um, but yeah, I think there's lots of things about AA that aren't perfect. You know what I mean? But yeah, I agree. There's, there's so many aspects to it that I do think are, are so beneficial for the addict, but know that that is not a piece of it.
And I actually remember when I first was in AA, there were. two different Christian people in it that would say that and everyone in the room got weird. You know, where they were just like, I've been freed from this identity and every, because for, for most alcoholic and addict programs, this is a disease that you have for the rest of your life.
I don't like that. And here are the signs. steps, you know, but I will say the thing that I love that it encourages are very biblical principles outside of that, which is daily repentance, you know, looking for the wrongs that you've committed, making those, you know, like that daily repentance, everybody needs to be doing that.
So, and then honestly, just fully acknowledging that you, it's really, I think if you could change alcoholism out for center, you know what I mean? We get delivered, but we are a center for the rest of our lives. Like We aren't ever ultimately freed from sin, we never reach perfection, but that is why I don't go to AA like consistently anymore is because it's not my identity anymore.
I am not. At all saying anybody should not do a a my I have family members in there who have had great success I think it's probably one of the best things out there. I agree. I recommend I am not saying that i'm just saying if you do just maybe be open to the possibility that you're an overcomer If you're in Christ and you are clothed in his righteousness, and that's where you are.
And some people do therapy programs for a while and then graduate out. You know what I mean? AA was a great starting point for me to get a lot of tools in my toolbox that I needed. And then I've moved on. And I don't want to discourage anyone from that because I do believe it is probably one of the best success rates out there, right?
I agree. From what I know, yes. Okay. Yeah. So what I do think, like also though, with that frame of mind, like maybe not like the, the powerless part, but like still in recovery sometimes like attaching is like, what if like 10 years later, like, like you were been good this whole time, but if you backslide and how much like, like, um, shame and guilt that you can have with that, how it might be forgiving to maybe almost be like, okay, like, it's okay that I'm still in recovery.
Cause this is a part of recovery, right? This is a part of the process. I hear you, I guess, but I get it. I might, Just because I think life and death is in the power of the tongue. And I think just playing devil's advocate a little bit. I think what we put out there is scientifically and biblically It's a thing.
I don't want to be one of those manifest people, but there is science behind it, and there is Bible prophecy that if we're putting this out there, that's what's in our mind. Like, don't think about the pink elephant. What are you going to think about? Yes, but then we have to remember the sovereignty of God, where even if you think about the pink elephant, He can still control it.
To some degree. You know what I mean? Well, we have authority here. I want to debate this. Oh, there we go. Let's do it. Let's go. Here we go. So no, I'm just, we're totally joking. No, but we do, we have authority here, right? He gave us authority here. Correct. So though he is in control, there are only so many legal rights because God is a just God and God doesn't change.
There's only so many things he can do without our participation. Okay. I don't agree with this, but that's just me. Well, I mean, this is the system he set up. This is the legal system he set up. Jesus is here to intercede. He is here to save. Correct. You know, we can't save ourselves. There's just, there's a legal system that he has set up for us.
That he, the reason we can trust him is because of what he says. And we can believe that. Correct. We can trust that. Yeah. And so, my concern is, there is. words we put out, there is a belief, there is a faith system, right? If we believe that we can cast that mountain into the sea, if we believe and receive that, that is true.
And I think, I think part of the whole program of life is building the faith and it's building our belief. Correct. And our ability to receive that whole Mark 11 23 is, that is the process. And I can see that even throughout your story, right? I can see where Okay. I believed I received it. Mm-Hmm. , I, I was delivered from this Sure.
And that, you know, in our previous podcast Yeah. And I've experienced it myself. Yeah. I've seen my kids receive it. Mm-Hmm. . And I think sometimes when I hold on to something in any way, shape or form Mm-Hmm. , it's still part of me. Yes. And I, I, I gotta give it. And you, you said this Well Mm-Hmm. until they give it to Jesus.
Yeah. Which is truly giving it to him. And I think that. If we're talking about my food issue that apparently I'm still struggling with on occasion, like, like I would say, yes, I'm in recovery. Sometimes I go through periods where this is so easy. Yeah. And then I go through periods of where this is not easy.
Yeah. And then, but it's when I feel like I'm grabbing the thing back. Yeah. It's, I gave it to him and then I grabbed it back. Mm hmm. And I, I don't know, maybe it's a semantic thing that it's just hits me wrong. Fair. I have a theological counter question. Sure. I hope I can answer it. Um, many American Christian churches now are focusing on controlling, uh, and relieving suffering, suffering.
Mm hmm. My counter question to these American Christian pastors who want to encourage us to create essentially a heaven on earth through the alleviation of suffering through our John, ability to control our reality through words, is what was the point of the apostles suffering? Okay. So I don't know that I agree with your first premise.
Okay. Go ahead. Um, I think there is suffering cause we're in a broken, hurting world and that is the given. Yes. I think that we can, our, our way out of it isn't necessarily only through our word. Okay. Right. It's through our faith. It is through our obedience. I think God give us Gives us a way out. He gives us the fork.
And there's always a fork in the road, right? Mm-Hmm. . There's always a path. The narrow road. Mm-Hmm. . And sometimes we don't pick it. Right. And sometimes I'm not picking it when I'm grabbing it back. Sure. Because I kind of want it a little bit. Yeah. And I know, I know. Okay. It's just a little bit, but then it turns into a bunch.
Mm-Hmm. . And I just know I then I'm just like, screw it. Yeah. I'm all in. Give me the gallon of ice cream. Yeah. . I know it sounds silly, but it's, it's my, it's what happens. Um, So I'm not sure that it's just one thing. I think. Words you mean? Yes. I think words are an important part of what we say. I think we have to be honest and truthful.
Sure. I don't think we say things that aren't true. I think like when we are in recovery. We're, we're in recovery, but I think when we overcome, we're overcomers. Do you know what I mean? Part of his will, right? Yes. Well, no, that is his will. That will be whole. The bigger question I was going to ask though, is that is the whole point of life to avoid suffering is the whole point of life to be relieved from suffering?
No, no. But I think. I think the whole point of life is to reflect Jesus. Yes. And in our suffering. Correct. And I think that happens when we are overcomers. Not always though. Well, Because the apostles didn't overcome. They didn't overcome everything. They were martyred. You know what I mean? They suffered greatly.
Oh, yes. So, that, and that's the only point, they overcame a lot, but they weren't obsessed with the part of overcoming. When you read their letters and when you read the point, it was the forgiveness and it was almost the acceptance of suffering. When you look at Paul's message, especially in the book, the book, uh, the Corinthians books, he, there's an acceptance there, understanding that that's, That's the journey that he's taken on to glorify God.
That's personally how I see it. But I know that there's a theological difference here. Like there, there might not be though. Okay. Yeah. I, I, there may, and you can cut all this out later. No, no, no, no, no. I think it's, it's cool. I wonder too, if we're in interpreting, uh, Maybe one verse differently, possibly.
And that happens. You know what I mean? Like this is why there's different sects of Christianity. Yeah. I do believe there is suffering. I do believe that we're going to be persecuted. It's pretty much promised that I have no, but I do think that his will for us is what we're, where we're supposed to be.
And I just wonder, this isn't theological so much as. It's my feeling and I've got experience with this in life. When I'm on the road, he's on, right? I can overcome anything like it. I'm not saying that you, that my kid won't be in pain and it won't be painful, but I can overcome it and learn to live in joy in that moment.
Okay. In that sense of overcoming. Yes. I agree. Many people use the term overcome to mean they have a life devoid of suffering. And I see that kind of like a prosperity gospel. Right? Yeah. I guess I don't believe that. I don't, which I don't either, but I know some people do. You know, I think we can overcome a lot.
I think. I think there's probably much more that we haven't even tapped into. Maybe it's overcoming to look like Christ. I think overcoming is very internal, right? Like when you've overcome internally, you can experience anything externally, including suffering, and you can glorify God in the sense that you can literally live in that.
Like, I remember my grandma. That's what Jesus did. Yes, literally, you know what I mean? Like, my grandma told me this story. Um, And it, it always used to make me cry because like it helped her when my grandpa died. But basically she'd heard this story on the radio of these two missionaries that like were overseas.
One was there to literally spread the gospel. She, the, his wife worked in a hospital that was attached to a school and it was a very dangerous area to work in. And there was a day where, um, a regime that was very violent came in and murdered his wife. and the children there. And in that moment, he shared on the radio that he realized God imparted to him that he had a choice in that moment, whether to forgive those men and stay there and keep trying to spread the gospel.
Literally, they were there to spread the gospel to that regime. You know, he was like, you can either continue trying to spread the gospel to your enemies, or you can give into bitterness. You know, in hatred for them, and he chose to stay and, and that I think is truly overcoming. The overcoming part wasn't that his wife was saved from death and he got to leave and go back home.
You know what I mean? The overcoming was the internal part, the ability to forgive. This is what I wonder, and I do not know about this situation. I just look at. Okay, let's look at the life of Jesus where God, he only listened to the Father, right? And he escaped so much by listening to the Father. Okay, walk here, do this, do that.
He escaped so much until it was time to come to his end. Even Paul knew when his end was coming. You can see it in his head. Okay, this is the end guys. This is where I'm headed. But they knew, cause they were so obedient and listening to the Holy Spirit, they were ready for it. They were prepared for it. Mm hmm.
I think, I think they both knew the bigger picture of what they were supposed to be doing. Yeah. And why. And enduring. Yes. Um, but. So the man did, right? Yes. And maybe the family reached their end for as obedient as those two. Mm hmm. I think the overcoming does look kind of like what I think it does. Do you know what I mean?
Like, like the addiction is we are delivered from that. We are delivered from these things in it. It doesn't have to be hard. I've seen, I've seen people go like this and just be done. Yeah. These are internal things. God can renew. I do. I totally do believe that. Yeah. Um, I do worry and I get what you're saying about the words.
But there's a lot of biblical principles that tell me that, okay, if I speak life, I get life. If I speak death, I get death. To a certain degree, because again, my mother thinks she can't talk about her illness because it brings the illness into existence. And Paul didn't. I don't really believe that. That's what I'm saying.
But that's the extreme version of that. If you take that part. You have to deal with reality too. Sure, of course. Yeah. And we pray for the thing, but I don't think we. I mean, maybe I do agree with her a little bit, because how many times have I It's New Age. You have to understand it's New Age. No, no, but I'm thinking of experiential Manifestation, right?
Yeah, manifestation is New Age. You can't slap Jesus on it and call it Christianity. You just can't. There is a certain truth. Well, Jesus spoke truth. Correct. God spoke the world. But did the, did somebody get hung upside down for the gospel because they said the word upside down cross too many times?
Absolutely not. But that's the extreme version of that. Okay. I see what I mean? I do. You can't say somebody got martyred because they said the word martyred too many times. No, no. So you know that's true, and it is true. Yeah. How is illness any different? Yeah, I don't, I don't, yeah, I don't agree. So I just challenge people with that because I see it spreading and I, I'm not trying to say I know everything, you know, but like this was what I was getting pulled into with my mom where I did start believing the extreme stuff.
I wouldn't talk about anything negative. How was the New Testament written, which includes them commiserating with each other and grieving about a lot of negative stuff out loud through their words? So I do think that there is a truth that must be spoken so that we know how to combat. Yes, there is truth in words.
There's power in words. And I do believe that I don't want to be speaking. Okay, let's, let's say I have a child in trouble. I do not want to be speaking death over him. I am going to pray over him Ephesians every day. I am going to pray truth, light, wisdom. I'm not going to. commiserate and speak about, Oh, this is so hard.
This is so bad. And I think that's where the problem is for me with it is What are we going to focus on? Are we going to focus on the building life in somebody? Are we going to focus on building the death in them? Counter challenge, just to consider, I'm not saying I'm right. Um, the thing that I observed from people doing the more extreme version of this was they were not resting in God and they were not fully trusting in the power of God to do, even if you never prayed those prayers.
Do you believe that God could still be sovereign enough to work in your son's life and save him from a car accident, even if you didn't pray those prayers? And many people Well, even through the Old Testament, it shows that there is intercession needed for God to move. It's, it's helpful, but it's, he's sovereign enough that he can do whatever he wants, whether you pray or not.
Well, God can only do what he says he will do. And that's why we can trust him. That's where I'm, I think I'm different. But this is what I believe. Yeah. I believe if God says it, it's true. Fair. If God said it, this is how the system is. I'm going to have to agree with the system. And this is why I do love him and why I can have trust in him.
Cause he doesn't change based on my whim. Sure. We were, that's old Testament scripture, right? The point of Jesus coming. Right. Was to renew. It's old and new. Okay, so you're saying in the New Testament it says there has to be intercession? Or is that an Old Testament verse? Jesus is the interceder in the New Testament.
Correct. He saved us. We need the Savior. Yeah. So we need the Savior now. Anyway, I have a differing opinion sometimes. Yeah. No, it's all right. No, but that's just what I believe. Yeah. And this is common. I meet a lot of Christians who believe stuff like this. But I don't. I don't, it's not the extreme, like if I say the word headache, I'm gonna have a headache.
No, I'm not. Yeah. I'm not believing for that. Yeah. Because. And it's good for people to stay away from like that. I think it was really good for you to point that out because I think there, anything you take out of the scripture, like, okay, we talked about this yesterday. There's really the big things, like Jesus is your savior.
These are the big things that are important. I think when we get into the weeds or the ditch is when we pull out some obscure, some obscure verse or idea that you find one time, and then you create a whole theology on it. Yeah. Yeah. But I do believe there's enough science and enough biblical backing for my point of view that we do need to encourage and edify.
We do lift up. But I do also believe, and this is where I think people get twisted, is what exactly what you said is like, we're not going to acknowledge the truth. Like I have a headache. That's a true thing. Okay. I'm going to pray for you to remove that from me God. Right. Yeah. I am also. I do get worried that people get in the weeds with what you just said with, with.
Yeah. That extreme. Yeah. I personally don't believe God is limited in any capacity. And I believe that he can do things whether I pray or not. I think intercession is beneficial, but I don't think it's necessary. And he's helpless without it. But I understand if people feel differently, because again, I know.
people look at scripture and there's a reason why there's different aspects to Christianity, you know, but that's how I personally have come to interpret it thus far in my life, in my journey. I think he has unlimited power, but I also believe what he says is true. Sure. So if he says, this is how we're going to, if this is how the legal system set up, you need a savior.
Right. You truly need a savior. Yeah. Like, so you think he's unlimited and it's going to save people who don't accept Jesus? No. Okay. But so when you're saying intercession, Jesus is the interceder. Correct. That's the new setup. That's our new legal system. I thought you were talking about prayer also being an intercession.
So there's Jesus and prayer. Yes, we are called to intercede for people. Correct. So when I've been saying intercession, I'm just talking about prayer in the sense that like he can still save people whether I pray for them or not. You know what I mean? Yes, yes, yes, but he can also intercession. He's asking us to intercede on behalf of others, for sure.
Like, so if I have a friend in need, I'm going to say, Hey, send laborers, please, God, send laborers out the way. And he hears us. To be an encouragement. Yeah. And to advocate. Absolutely. But I just was saying, in terms of intercession and being prayer, I still believe that God can work in whatever form, whether I pray those prayers or not.
Yes. I mean, he loves us. It's for sure. And he wants the best for us and, but I also think he puts on our hearts to pray for those people. It's just, all I'm saying is we're called to do it, but he, it's not like he literally can't save this person until someone prays the prayer. Well, my mom believes he can't.
Okay. She literally believes that if you do not pray for these things, God is limited. He's literally in a form of bondage because this is Satan's world. And because it's Satan's world right now, he, God almost has no authority except through us. So God is no longer sovereign through her belief system. I don't think the Bible says that either.
It doesn't, but that's just, you know, I don't know every single Bible verse and I will acknowledge that, you know, I'm, I might be out of my depth even here. Fair. Yeah, because I, I don't know. Let us know what you guys think in the comments. Yeah, let you know. I mean, it started a really interesting debate. I know, huh?
It is, it is. That was so pretty interesting. It was like, interesting to hear both schools with that. And I don't think either of you guys were too far off from each other. I don't think that we disagreed too wildly. And I don't even know if you guys even really disagree. I feel like it was kind of a miscommunication semantic thing.
It could be. That happens so often where people are using the same word, but they actually mean different things. But they think they're talking about the same thing, but they're not, you know? So that's very possible as well. And it's not really fair that she speaks better than me because that's just going to come across better.
Just joking. I'm totally joking. I don't know if I hijacked the video talking about like, it's so interesting though. Let's just like, Paul and Moses, remember they didn't speak super great either. They didn't. They did not. This can tie into the porn conversation though, like you be like, like I'm an addict, a porn addict.
Do I identify with that? Like or am I just acknowledging truth? Oh, that's, that's my other thing. Sure. It's the identity. That's where I wanted to come with. Thank you, God. And this is, it's not, it's like, where do we want our identity to be? Is, is, am I an overcomer or am I just helpless and powerless to everything all the time?
For sure. And I think I want to be the overcomer. Yeah. I want to reflect Jesus. I want that to be my identity. Yeah. And if I don't identify with that, how does it become my identity? And the part where it becomes new age is, you know, people who are new age, they have to do all these things because they don't have a God to rest in.
You have to. to control your reality. You have to be your own God. There is no Jesus Christ that you're resting in. There is no salvation. There is no being having a new identity. You know what I mean? So you have to do all this stuff and like earn these things for yourself. So it's it's just, and, but we can all go back to again, workspace stuff.
We can all be drawn back to that mindset, not resting. I think the point here is this is, this is That's why a relationship, a personal relationship is so necessary with God to walk in that obedience. Because like you said, there's churches that have gone off in the weeds on one little theology and made it their doctrine.
And I know that's not what God is about. He's about us going and creating and making disciples and spreading the gospel. And having discernment. And that's the important part. Yeah. That's if we get nothing else, that's what we need. We need to know who our savior is and who our identity is in him. Yeah.
Minimally. Yes. And so bringing back to the porn thing, like you can, like you could speak life into I'm no longer a porn addict. I have overcame. Yeah. But is that into the point where it's like manifesting something that hasn't really came on yet? The glory for speaking it. When we lie. It breaks our brain when we lie to ourselves, it's breaking our brain.
So I like to say for me, like, okay, I struggled with this. I'm working on this. This is where I'm headed. You know, now I'm here. I've arrived. And I think, I think when we lie, it creates the anxiety for me too. Like when I, when I say, because What if it doesn't? What if I didn't? Well, if it didn't, yeah, God wouldn't set you up your brain that way, but it truly breaks your brain when you lie, even to yourself.
And that's the problem with addiction or with, um, when we get in the weeds with ideas, with Like these false frameworks of these tropes of women, like, this is who I want to be. This is who I am. Well, that's why you're sad, anxiety, depression, why that's why it overcomes you. It's because your brain is broken because you're lying to yourself and you don't even know it.
Something you just said though, was like, am I taking the glory for myself? I wonder how many people out there are overcoming something, are Christian and are looking more to, you know, obviously like earn their way through it and work their way through it. But like, even when they're asking God for it, like.
Would they even give him the glory for it? Would, if they delivered him, or delivered them, I guess. Yeah. Interesting. That was an interesting comment. I would say people with true deliverance know who that came from. Like you were speaking yesterday, you were delivered from some kind of illness that happened right quick.
I can't remember what it was. It was just, I cannot remember what it was. But you just knew it was God. It's that experience that you know is God. Like, what was it other than alcoholism? Yeah. I can't remember. Something you were just going through and it, I think maybe you were a kid. I can't remember. Or it's really going to bug me.
Mine was like my hair loss. Yeah. I started losing my hair. I had a diagnosis that was not curable. Yeah. And you remember I was here, like I wouldn't even leave the house. Oh, you're talking about the panic attacks? Yes. Yeah, my panic attacks. Yes. Overnight. gone. Yeah. Yeah. And that was him. And you just know it's him, so you can't help but give him the glory.
A hundred percent. Right. Yeah. And it's And he did that to be glorified. Yes. He did that to show me this is who I am. And I didn't pray. I mean, I did pray for that, but I more so prayed just that he would show me if he was real. You know what I mean? And he shows me. Because I really didn't think Think that it would actually work.
Like I didn't think they would actually ever stop. So I was just like, if you're a higher power and you're out there, just show me that you're real. You know what I mean? Which I guess is kind of praying for that in like a vague way. Um, but yeah. But he's just showed off for you and showed you how much he loved you.
Yeah. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. And I do believe that healing can come to people, you know what I mean? Um, I believe all those things. I just think there's nuance in everything. I do too. Nothing is black and white, right? I absolutely do too. And I can't speak to somebody else's life other than to ask questions, well, where were you in this?
Like, that's kind of why I was asking earlier with your addiction, with you were grabbing it back is basically how I was trying to ask it when you were saying, are you really praying for it? Do you really want it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or are you grabbing it back? Well, like, I really want it, but then, you know, my lizard brain is like, ha, give it back.
Yeah. You know what I mean? Yes, I do know what you mean. Yeah. Yeah. After the bag of chips. Yeah. Literally. I'm very familiar. So. I still think it was really cool that you were willing to, like, talk about it, though. Yeah. guys. Even for me, when I first started talking about my stuff, I felt very self conscious.
And, um, I don't know how many times you have talked about it. And I think more men are starting to, even secular men, I see secular. Celebrities coming out and saying, I had a porn addiction. I'm walking away from this stuff, which is great because can you go only, I can only imagine what it's going to be like once you have like AI and people living with like the, the goggles and all that stuff, like AI girlfriends and stuff like that's already happening.
It'll be so much harder. So the people who are having the opportunity to walk away now, it's like truly a tender mercy. Cause it will get harder, you know, loathe to ask this question because I do not want to compile any shame or guilt, but I'm going to ask you this question, but I, I just want, this is life, right?
We are. What we do sometimes hurts people. It has consequences. Our addictions do, right? So what are you hearing from women, how it makes them feel about their men being addicted to porn? Cause you're talking to women, right? Yeah. You're saying, how did the women feel about the men being addicted to porn? I mean, most women, yes, they feel rejected.
You know what I mean? From the ones that I'm talking to, or Honestly, I still meet a lot of women who they don't necessarily see anything wrong with it. But when i'm talking to them about it and I say, okay, how much of this do you feel like? Do you feel like if the man you're with wasn't watching porn? Do you feel like you would watch it as much?
And i'll not all the time because women can be addicted but for the girls that i've talked to They don't know if they would watch it as much If the guy wasn't watching it as much like they're watching it together essentially and stuff like that Most women want an emotional connection over a physical one if we see that the thing that is really great to connect to you with is sex and Porn and whatever else you're into sexually we will Try to rise to that stand.
Those are your one too. So I was at a holy yoga event learning And truly I do not have a problem with yoga because if God can redeem a push up he can redeem me Thanks, but I will say we'd say that again If God can redeem a pushup, if he can redeem me, he can redeem a pushup. Okay. But I no longer teach holy yoga for the reason that it causes so much confusion by other people.
And I had people who had come to my class, then go to a class that was not holy yoga and be very confused. And some, I don't know. I mean, I don't know if this is possible, but. I don't want them to grab onto that new age crap they learned in somebody else's class. So, so for me, I thought, okay, this isn't even worth it.
Yeah. Right. And I do feel God led me there because I needed to be with him on my mat and he shared so much with me and we, he still does, but it's a personal practice now, like where, you know, we're hanging out together. But during this, during this training, I was an older person there, like, not like now.
I'm always oldest in the group apparently. And, and I had to show her up my capabilities. And so I hurt myself. Because, and it was one of those muscle rips across your lower back. And it was like, Oh, this is going to be a week spelled out pride. Yeah. Okay. Perfect. I'm so glad you're setting this up. Cause it was, cause I was with all these young girls and I, I'm here too.
And I, I deserve to be here. Okay. So God did show up in so many different ways. I'm not going to go into it, but we went out for a prayer that night and they said, we have something special for you. And we just went outside and everyone was praying to the stars. I'm like, okay, where's the special God? Like everyone is like on their knees.
Like I don't even know what's happening. Cause everyone's in their personal prayer. All of a sudden, I was almost irritated. I'm like, what are you guys doing? Come on, you're all getting on your knees because it's dark out. And they said you're supposed to feel something. Yeah. So all of a sudden, without me praying for it, I could feel this tingling feeling come across my back.
And it was healed. Wow. In addition to that, it was freezing. We were in the mountains and I didn't wear a coat outside, which apparently everyone did. Yep. So it was tense, which was interesting to feel the heat. Yeah. And he heated, I knew it was him. He heated up my whole body. I did not pray for any of that.
I did not pray, I did not deserve to be prayed for because I was acting in pride, but it was this holy experience that brought me to my knees. In all of him. And I didn't pray for that. Yeah. He just healed because he is sovereign. He just healed me. And he got the full glory. Yeah. Yeah. And I didn't get to say this on camera, but kind of what we were talking about earlier is this leads me to believe that instead of like, God just wants me to pray for a work as hard as I can to get it.
He wants to have an experience where I know how much it was him so I can give him as much glory as possible. Yes. Yes. That is not about you whatsoever. It is. completely about him. You don't get to brag about the things that you did. You don't get to brag about the prayer that you gave. You know what I mean?
It is completely about him. And it is so important to make sure that we're staying close to that. You know, it is true. And he has held me through prayer. He has. Yes. Yes. So, and on many other things. So I, I give glory to him. Always. Yeah. And, um, I think prayer again to him is a form of worship for me. Yeah.
So it's not really about me. Yes. And I almost see it as like rings. Like the most important thing is that God is sovereign and we can rest in him, him and Jesus. The next ring is the importance of prayer. and how powerful prayer is. And it's this amazing tool we've been given that God can work through.
And then outside of that, you know what I mean? It just gets really fuzzy and messy. And you have all these theologies that say that you can do all this other stuff. And I'm not sure how I feel about all of it. But those two things I am solid in. And I think that's what's important. Yeah. Right. And you, You need to have your personal prayer and your personal time with God to figure out what your relationship looks like with him.
And read your Bible. See what the Bible says. What does the word say? You know, you don't even have to listen to all these pastors. If you read the Bible, it will show you and it will tell you. And be a Berean. Verify. Verify. Verify what your pastor says. Because I don't agree with Oh, sorry, Pastor Mark. I don't always agree with every single thing my pastor says.
I don't. And sometimes I look it up and he was right. And I, you know, I'm humbled. And sometimes I can't find either of us in it. So I think that's what's important. And You know, feel free to add your comments, like your thoughts on this, because this is important. I love this, this type of discussion, honestly.
Like, it's my favorite. So, yeah. We'll have to do it again. Yes, Erin, we'll have to have you again and again and again. I'll bring more stuff to argue about next time. Let's have theological battles. So I guess where we're at with the porn conversation is, Prayer. Yes. Forgiveness of yourself. Mm hmm. Is that what you got from this?
Mm hmm. Um, it hurts everyone. Mm hmm. Just like any other addiction. It is just like any other addiction. Mm hmm. Yeah. That's what I think was the most shocking to me in this, from this conversation is how much I didn't understand. Like I never looked at it as a stress relief. Yeah. And women do it too. We just make it look prettier.
Much like everything we do. Yeah. We just make it look prettier. Yes. Yes. That's my food. My food issue is not a big deal. It's just food. Yeah. And God wants to have a real experience with you to deliver you. So you can glorify him 100 percent of the way. Like he wants you to. Amen. And that's what I'm heading to next.
I feel like we may have looked like a disagreement that it wasn't really a disagreement. Amen. Yeah. But I think that was a good example because I think like a lot of Christian conversations can get there. We're like, wait, hold on. It gets tense. And it's like, wait, what? Like, do we, I don't know if we believe in the same thing.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. And I think that's very Berean of us. You know what I mean? To like have that and be like, well, why do you believe that? Here are the verses for why I believe what I believe. You know what I mean? And I don't know as many verses as other people. Um, but yeah, I just think that was good for also us to just check it out.
And I think in my. Old me, we talked about this. What was it? What'd you call it? Splitting? Yeah. Black and white thinking. Black and white thinking. I have to know this is what I think, but it's nice to hear your point of view. So I think, Oh, okay. That might affect other people to hear what I just said wrong.
Right. So I do appreciate this conversation. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Things are a little grayer than we think, man. Yeah. any other closing thoughts? I don't think so. I'm just glad we got to talk about this today. Me too. What a fun conversation. I hope you guys enjoyed it as much as I did. Like, very cool that we can have this conversation and still be friends and like, and you can share with your family.
And, you know, this is like, I think that's the reason we wanted to have this conversation. Would you agree that? Yes. It does need to be had. And it isn't happening in all the churches, though you, you did say that you've heard of some churches, like it's real and it's happening to men and women at a degree that I wasn't aware of.
So we need to be good brothers, sisters in Christ and help each other out. And this is my closing thought, cause I just had this conversation with, um, a family member. I think. Because men are visual. as sisters in Christ, let's be kind. Yeah. Just compassionate. Yeah. Kind. In, in addition, I wonder how you're going to feel about this conversation.
Like this is what I hear on social media. We shouldn't have to change for our brothers in Christ. They should just look away. Well, there are brothers in Christ. Maybe we could dress a little more modestly. I have thoughts on this. I want to hear your thoughts on it. We thought we were closing. Hello. What are your thoughts?
Or you can make another video. I okay. We have things called indicators, and a lot of people don't think about their indicators, their behavioral tells, and the story that they're telling from how they walk, from how they talk, to sometimes how they dress. One example of this, so like in the grooming process really quick, before you can be groomed, you have to be cased.
Most people don't know about casing. I don't know what that means. Okay, perfect. Case of the joint. Here are some examples of casing. Um, one example I have is for a while I worked for probation officers and when I went to a training for them and people who worked in the prisons themselves, they told, um, the people who worked in the prison, the correctional officers, that they had to iron their clothes every single day.
not to look professional, but because if their clothes were wrinkly, the inmates would know that they were tired. And if you know that someone's tired, you know that they are vulnerable. That is a way that you case someone. That is a way that you have a tell. Another example of this, just in terms of casing and tells, is there's a woman who actually did a study in 2009.
So Ted Bundy and several other serial killers, but most famously Ted Bundy said that he could tell who was a good victim, good potential victim from how they walked, just from how they walked. So this woman in 2009 actually did a case study to see if that was true. So what she did is she, uh, first put out an assessment at a college to try to find people who scaled high.
Or whatever on us with psychopathic traits after she had found 47 male undergraduate students who scaled high with psychopathic traits. She then found a group of 12 people and all she had them do was walk down a hallway. It filmed them walking and then at the end of the hallway. They filled out a questionnaire and some of the questions on that questionnaire were about whether they had ever been victimized.
She had the 47 men watch that all the videotape footage. And for each individual, say how likely they thought they were to be a good candidate to be mugged. And what she found is that they could actually assess vulnerability simply from how someone walked. Wow. So that's casing. Casing is looking at someone's tells.
And being able to tell how vulnerable they are and casing can happen very quickly Casing can happen from how you talk how much you apologize how much you overshare Do you know what I mean? It's a thing. This is why I asked you yesterday This isn't why but this is why I wonder when I asked you yesterday Were you re-victimized?
Mm-Hmm. ? Like, did this happen over and over? Yes, but I'm, what? And that's probably why is this probably why I, I personally have come to believe that once these internal structures and muscles essentially have been broken down by someone. We think, if you think about it like being in a car accident, if once you've survived grooming and abuse and trauma of any kind, um, that's caused you to enter into self doubt and self hatred, you don't work on undoing that indoctrination most of the time.
Most people just accept that indoctrination. They go, Oh, this is how I'm supposed to think about myself and other people. They don't really question it that much. So if you're still talking about yourself like you're a piece of crap, if you're still approaching men like they're something to be worshipped like a god, you think that that's not going to come through in how you walk, how you act, how you talk?
It totally bleeds through. Who we are inside emerges in a thousand different ways as trials. So yes, I do think that predatory people found me easier because once you've survived one experience you have these tells, you have these mechanisms, you're still wearing your indoctrination because you haven't shed it.
You've not shed your indoctrination. It's still inside of you. And so people find you easier, which is one of the main reasons I also make my videos because so many people who are survivors are now. More susceptible to being found again by someone else, but either way, the reason I'm getting at casing and tells is because one thing that is a tell is the way that you dress and that's not even like necessarily a modesty thing.
Uh, there's a power point that I made where I have images and I go through them and I say what. story can you tell about this person from this picture just based on what they're wearing? And sometimes it's somebody with mountain gear on, sometimes it's someone with a business suit, but sometimes it's somebody with ripped clothing with holes in their shoes.
Well, what do you know about that person that they're probably struggling and vulnerable economically, financially? You know what I mean? You can tell the level of exhaustion that someone has if they look like super tired in that sense. But you also tell stories from how you dress in general and sometimes that also comes down to how you dress sexually.
It's, it's just a, the fact of the matter. If you don't care about that, fine. You know what I mean? But I, I got tired of telling a certain story with my body and attracting certain people towards me. So I personally made the decision to start dressing in a different way. for me. And this is even common with people who are survivors of trafficking and stuff.
They will actually dress more like a tomboy as a trauma response to try to shield off men afterwards. I actually did that after my rape and after a couple other traumatic experiences. I dressed more like a boy for a while because I just didn't want that attention. So we know some women put on weight purposely.
Yes. So we know in some ways we know our clothing tells a story. You know what I mean? We know it, but then we want to deny it. And I just think we struggle a lot with wanting to have our cake and eat it too. We want to be able to do the things that we want to do, but without any repercussions. And I just think he gets very illogical.
So the main thing I'm getting at is Yes, have compassion for like our brothers in Christ, but also understand that you are telling a story and people aren't bad just because they're reading the story that you're giving off. And if you don't want that to be the story that you're giving off, like you can't have your cake and eat it too.
You just can't. Certain types of clothing tell certain stories. They just do. If you wear a police uniform, people are going to assume you're a police. That's what I'm saying. And they're not yelling at us or getting mad at us for thinking that they're police officers. You know what I mean? But like there's other, it gets more nuanced with all this other stuff, because we live in a day and age where people Don't want a certain story to be associated with them or assumptions to be made, but there's just Ways that we tell stories.
There's just ways that we give off indicators It's a weird generation because I will tell you my mom was very direct about this If you don't want to get treated like a blank don't dress like a blank, right, you know I mean, I guess I just believed her. And for me, it's, I think it's more about like, But I don't think that's a thing now because we have to take everyone's feelings into consideration and thoughts and like what they want versus reality.
Well, again, I think women, in today's day and age, it seems like women are very sexually available. They want to be sexually available. They are sexually available. And if you are, and if you want to be, then that's where you're at. You know what I mean? But, while being sexually available, And while wanting to be that way, they don't want to be perceived that way.
Because there's shame in that label. It's a weird contradiction, isn't it? It is because I think also it comes down to words. Like, people are willing to admit that they make mistakes and they're a bad person sometimes, but they don't want to be called a sinner. That's the same term like semantics, you know what I mean?
Like you might not like the color blue and I'm talking about how the sky is blue. Okay, I could call it turquoise I could call it navy sky still blue, honey, you know what I mean? Like you want to be sexually promiscuous, but then you don't want to be Openly called sexually promiscuous because somehow that's someone shaming you but you can call yourself sexually promiscuous And i'm not avoiding the word whore because I don't believe in that word.
I do not believe in that word, but Having a sexually open active lifestyle and then wanting to deny that other people have the right to acknowledge that Doesn't make any sense That is very interesting. Okay. I think, um, yeah, that's what I meant to say. What she said. That's it. Thank you, Erin. Thank you so much.
You are so wise and have such great insight and have obviously put a ton of thought into this. So neurotic. Just laying awake at night. I mean, It's it's part of your healing, right? Yeah, it is. This is how I process stuff. So yes, yes. Other people here too. Yeah. Yes. Thank you. And that's the whole goal, right?
We want people to heal. We want people to be whole. We want them to do this journey. Enjoy. Yeah. In peace. Yes. In his strength. Thank you. Thank you so much. It's been truly a delight. She just flew to Arizona for a couple days and has been filming a couple days. And we're going to scatter the content out so you don't get sick of just looking at me.
And so anyway, thank you guys for joining us again. I really, really appreciate it. If you're here, tell the end man. Yeah. Cheers. Yeah. Like and subscribe, please. Yes. And again, um, so Aaron, thank you. Can you tell them a little bit about how they can get in touch with you and see your help you with your project and what your project is?
Sure. Yeah. Um, yeah, so I have a project called red circle project. It works in partnership with the stop trafficking project If you're interested in donating at all to anyone on my website, uh, you can actually donate to the stop trafficking project specifically I'm, really passionate about what he does as well.
He has more access to kids and young women and Young men as well than I do he go. Russ Tuttle is the president He goes into schools and he educates kids on digital online trafficking and after speaking to children He often has many many disclosures that happen. He's actually uncovered trafficking rings within the school going on between By peers and Children.
Um, he has a lot of disclosures that get passed on to law enforcement and social workers. So what he does is very important right now. It's only within Kansas and Missouri, but he's working on spreading it out to many schools across the U. S. For my project, Red Circle Project. I created Red Circle Project, uh, because I'm passionate about cycles of abuse.
Oftentimes, when people are survivors of long term grooming or long term abusive brainwashing, they tend to be involved in multiple, uh, abusive relationships and have multiple experiences, not just one. Oftentimes because they're actually addicted to this cycle, and two, it's because they think that this is the only version of love available to them from the beliefs that they have about themselves as women and the beliefs they have about love and men.
And so I try to end those cycles of abuse through education and to let women know and people know that they don't need to be ashamed that there are reasons why these cycles go on. And that is what I'm passionate about talking about. And we are in full support and thank you for sharing that. Yeah. All right, everyone, sayonara.
See you later.