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Stacey Flaster and Dori Goldman are two ladies obsessed with cults and true crime. Join them as they take us into the depths of some of the most notorious cults, crimes, and killers that the world has ever known. They consume content and ask deep dark questions that only a certified expert can answer... enter Dr. John Mayer. Dr. John is an internationally known Forensic Psychologist and expert on violent behavior and crime prevention, with 35 years of experience consulting to law enforcement and testifying in hundreds of court cases as an expert witness. He is the "Real Deal" and will help Stacey and Dori get to the bottom of of their curious criminal minds.
00:00:00:05 - 00:00:03:04
Stacey
Candy.
00:00:03:06 - 00:00:07:17
Speaker 1
A podcast about cults, crimes and killers.
00:00:07:17 - 00:00:12:19
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:00:12:19 - 00:00:15:00
Stacey
Today we're digging into Betting on Zero,
00:00:15:12 - 00:00:25:08
Stacey
a documentary that follows billionaire hedge fund manager Bill Ackman as he places $1 billion bet against Herbalife, calling it a pyramid scheme.
00:00:25:17 - 00:00:40:07
Dori
Herbalife, a global nutrition company, has been accused of preying on low income communities, especially immigrants, promising the American dream but delivering debt and desperation.
00:00:40:09 - 00:00:50:04
Stacey
Meanwhile, Ackman launches a very public crusade to expose the company. But it's not that simple, because while he's calling it a moral mission.
00:00:50:06 - 00:00:55:12
Dori
He's also shorting the stock and standing to make a fortune if it fails.
00:00:55:12 - 00:01:04:03
Dori
Which raises the central question is this activism or just capitalism in disguise?
00:01:04:08 - 00:01:13:11
Stacey
we're breaking down the documentary, the real world impact. And what happens when billionaires and corporations go to war. And every day people are caught in the middle?
00:01:14:13 - 00:01:24:08
Speaker 1
Outside my window. It's only raining.
00:01:24:10 - 00:01:31:23
Speaker 1
When the wind blows in. I feel pain.
00:01:32:00 - 00:01:37:01
Unknown
And I don't need no doctors.
00:01:37:03 - 00:01:57:18
Speaker 1
Maybe I'm not sick. My body's been lined up. I've broken up cells in every.
00:02:01:05 - 00:02:05:05
Speaker 1
May.
00:02:05:05 - 00:02:12:12
Stacey
So, this was I think this was my pick because, you know, that I'm kind of obsessed with multi-level marketing.
00:02:12:14 - 00:02:27:23
Stacey
And the tactics used to manipulate and scam people. Dorie, I really want your. Because, you know, this is something. We haven't done anything like this. I really would love to hear your opinion of of it.
00:02:28:05 - 00:02:40:14
Dori
Well, I will not call it, mid-level marketing. I know that it's multi-level. I've been at many a time, and if I say it correctly, I mean it.
00:02:40:14 - 00:02:44:23
Stacey
It is mid. It is mid is for kids, say, but it's not. It's multi.
00:02:45:00 - 00:03:13:21
Dori
So here's the thing I. So Herbalife is something that I'm going to be honest I, I kind of had heard of but I really didn't know anything about it. I've never been like a supplement person or the, you know, those shakes like that does not appeal to me at all. I did enjoy it. I thought it was interesting that it was ten years ago.
00:03:13:21 - 00:03:43:18
Dori
Right? That the documentary that this documentary was done and I had to look up, some of the players, like Bill and that icon guy, who they both ended up being, Trump people that I can work for, Trump in his administration. I think he lasted like six months. And they administration of his first presidency. And Ackman was a lifelong Democrat who voted for Trump this time.
00:03:43:18 - 00:04:15:18
Dori
So that's just interesting. Like, you know, we talk about like the financial stuff and all of that. The other thing that I also just found interesting about it is the preying on immigrants. And obviously nowadays, with undocumented people, I think a lot of them that were taken advantage of and that sold this were undocumented immigrants, and they pay taxes, but they're just trying to get ahead.
00:04:15:20 - 00:04:24:14
Dori
So it was kind of sad for me. I'm not going to lie. It was kind of like a sad watch. But interesting. I dug it.
00:04:24:16 - 00:04:58:15
Stacey
Yeah, it it is sad. And, you know, most of the time when these things happen, first of all, I was so disappointed that they didn't, you know, win more money in the case. Like, each person would get $10 if Herbalife paid out what they need to pay out for these people who lost all this money. You know, all these multi-level marketing schemes, or if you want to call them scams, are are all they all have a nutritional aspect to them or a ketones or collagen.
00:04:58:15 - 00:05:24:15
Stacey
A lot of the ketones. That's a big like buzzword. The drinks, the weight loss things, the nutrition like, you know, supplements. And then a lot of them, not Herbalife necessarily have another part, which is like there's a health and wellness, there's a nutrition aspect. So it's like they cover the gamut, but they also say something to people, which is the most confusing.
00:05:24:18 - 00:05:26:23
Stacey
You don't need any experience to do this.
00:05:28:04 - 00:05:52:07
Speaker 2
You follow what I say. Write this down. You're going to make a minimum of $50,000 this year. That's the that's the least amount of money that you're going to make. The second year, you'll make $125,000. And that's the least amount of money that you're going to make.
00:05:52:07 - 00:06:11:12
Stacey
People go to school to be a nutritionist, people going to school to learn about health and wellness and all this. And they're making dangerous claims and selling things, shilling products that are absolutely not approved by the FDA. They say proprietary blend, which means we don't know what's in it. So all of these things, the product is secondary.
00:06:11:12 - 00:06:33:14
Stacey
It's about recruitment, which I'm sure you realized in the documentary that the recruitment aspect of multi-level marketing is where the money is made. But if you're at the bottom of the pyramid, you don't you don't make any money. You know, people at the top want to keep adding to the bottom, because every person in that downline is going to make money for that top person.
00:06:33:14 - 00:06:35:05
Stacey
And only a few people make money.
00:06:37:02 - 00:07:05:19
Speaker 2
The way an illegal pyramid scheme works. Success is based almost exclusively on the ability to keep recruiting others. A new recruit comes in towards the bottom of that pyramid, and at any time, if we stop the recruitment process, we find that those people at those lower levels have no way to earn income. The probability of success declines as the number of people join.
00:07:05:23 - 00:07:15:10
Speaker 2
And we can prove mathematically that 95% of these people literally have to lose their money.
00:07:15:12 - 00:07:43:09
Speaker 1
Multi-level marketing presents this as normal business competition. For example, 20 people enter a field. They are going to sell this product. Only one will probably be successful in the other. 19 just didn't have what it took. We all understand that you go through this in sports. You go through it in school, then you enter the business world competition.
00:07:43:11 - 00:07:59:24
Speaker 1
That's not what this is. This is something entirely different. This is a money transfer scheme in which the one managed to get the 19 to give him or her their money.
00:07:59:24 - 00:08:15:05
Stacey
If you look at the income disclosure statements that they put down, and sometimes they do and sometimes they don't, you'll see that most people make about $300 a year. If anything, it's not a lucrative business. It's not your own business. You don't own the business. You can be terminated at any time.
00:08:15:07 - 00:08:37:11
Stacey
I've listened to so many, multi-level marketing, schemes and scams that I just have a lot of info so you can ask me anything. Now, the disappointing thing that I'm hearing is that Ackman voted for Trump. Not that we're going to get into a story about that because it's not relevant. But ironically Trump is a multi-level marketing scheme.
00:08:37:17 - 00:09:03:09
Stacey
You know. So it's all of the you know, a lot of the people in these in these scams are also religious, very, very religious Christians and are very right wing. Now, I'm not saying everybody, but I have yet to see a Jew or somebody else on one of these things talking and not involving prayer in Jesus, and I'll just do a prayer beforehand.
00:09:03:11 - 00:09:09:12
Stacey
There wasn't a lot of religion in the Herbalife documentary, but it is part of all this. It's all part of it.
00:09:09:12 - 00:09:14:15
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:09:14:15 - 00:09:41:23
Dori
came from it more of like, what's happening now? Like after I watched it. So I looked up the fact that Herbalife is still a valid company. It is. Yes it is. I went to their website and I was like, what do? So I can. So I think after the whole, you know, what suing of them and all of that and the settlement and everything.
00:09:42:00 - 00:10:10:02
Dori
They can still they can. So now they sell on the website, it goes through Amazon. You can buy Herbalife through Amazon, you can buy it directly through the website. They still sell pretty much everything that they've been selling. And the former Disney, former CEO of Herbalife, what's his name? Johnson. He's still a board member of this company.
00:10:10:02 - 00:10:22:14
Dori
So it's it definitely is a pyramid scheme. It is. It is hands down a pyramid scheme. Like you're saying, nobody makes money doing this except for the top people.
00:10:23:22 - 00:10:27:09
Speaker 2
first of all, what are you accusing Herbalife of?
00:10:27:11 - 00:10:31:04
Speaker 3
Being a pyramid scheme? We believe Herbalife experiments came.
00:10:31:06 - 00:10:33:05
Speaker 2
Explain. What do you mean by that?
00:10:33:07 - 00:10:54:10
Speaker 3
Well, Herbalife sells products, weight loss products, nutritional supplements, vitamins, things like that. But what they what they really sell and what their distributors make money from is by selling a business, what they call a business opportunity. The business opportunity is to sell the business opportunity to your friends, who in turn sell the business opportunity to their friends.
00:10:54:12 - 00:11:08:10
Speaker 4
You sign up to become an Herbalife distributor. You spend $55 or $100 to get a starter kit, and then eventually you're convinced to spend $3,000 to buy the minimum amount of inventory you need to acquire in order to become a supervisor.
00:11:08:12 - 00:11:14:01
Speaker 5
And you got a business in a box that can make you a fortune.
00:11:14:03 - 00:11:20:17
Speaker 4
And that's when you're entitled to get royalties from people beneath you in your so-called downline. These are the people you recruit.
00:11:20:19 - 00:11:41:07
Speaker 6
What generates income are purchases as products are purchased from Herbalife by those in your downline. They generate a commission upline. So as you build your downline and you recruit others friends, family members, coworkers, it's their purchases that generate
00:11:44:21 - 00:12:02:23
Dori
But. So how is it still around it? Initially, it was also named one of the best companies to work for. Like, the, employee engagement. Stacy, what the f is going on?
00:12:02:23 - 00:12:05:10
Dori
How is it still viable?
00:12:05:12 - 00:12:32:06
Stacey
I you know, it's interesting that you're saying that a lot of these companies are going affiliate, which means they're not, recruiting anymore, like affiliate means affiliate marketing and network marketing are two different things. Network marketing is networking. Getting a team, then selling the products, but also recruiting more people. Affiliate marketing is if, oh well, texts me or contacts me and says, we see you, we want you to promote a wallet to us.
00:12:32:06 - 00:12:41:13
Stacey
And every time you do, you'll every time you give people the the code, to buy in a while, you will give you 10% of the blah, blah. I just made that up. That's affiliate marketing.
00:12:41:13 - 00:12:43:02
Dori
What's in a Wawa?
00:12:43:04 - 00:12:47:16
Stacey
It's, very popular water bottle. Oh, I'm sure you've seen them.
00:12:47:18 - 00:13:03:19
Dori
You were hostage. She was holding up something, and I had no idea what she was. So it's called in a wallet. Got just an overall. Just side note. Okay, I'll look into the wall. Are you are you trying to multi-level marketing? Me?
00:13:03:21 - 00:13:08:16
Stacey
I am, I'm trying to recruit you to sell a wallet so that I can make money off of you.
00:13:08:18 - 00:13:09:17
Dori
See.
00:13:09:19 - 00:13:29:09
Stacey
You know, that's the thing they tell you ignore the haters. But what they're saying. And this isn't a pyramid. This is a very, very big, bullet point that people say. You say, isn't that a pyramid scheme? And they say, no pyramid schemes are illegal. You can have an A, you can be involved in an illegal pyramid scheme.
00:13:29:14 - 00:13:51:08
Stacey
It's unethical. It's still illegal. It's it's
so confusing. They really try to mess with you and get you to, to think that this is a viable business, that you will make money. And if you don't, it means you're doing something wrong. It comes back to you. You're at fault. You're not putting enough positive energy. You're not. You're not manifesting enough.
00:13:51:08 - 00:14:17:12
Stacey
You're not enough. You're not, you're you're listening to the haters. The haters are people just warning you to get out of this, you know, scam, this grift. They're not haters. They're people that are trying to give you good advice. But just like anything like Scientology being a Suppressive person or any of these cults, if anybody tries to get in and give you advice, they you shut them out because you are told that that is a hater and you need to keep moving forward.
00:14:17:15 - 00:14:23:16
Stacey
Don't listen to your instincts. Don't listen to your gut. Ignore that and do what we're telling you to do.
00:14:23:19 - 00:14:24:15
Dori
It is.
00:14:24:15 - 00:14:24:22
Stacey
A.
00:14:24:22 - 00:14:25:22
Dori
Cult.
00:14:25:22 - 00:14:49:11
Dori
And all of these, you know, pyramid schemes and all of these cults, they prey on people who are disenfranchized. I mean, listen, I'm not going to lie. Somebody coming up to me going, oh, you can make a lot of money selling this. At first it's appealing.
00:14:49:16 - 00:14:58:21
Dori
Wait, I can work for myself. I don't have to go into an office. You're telling me I'm going to make X amount of dollars?
00:14:58:23 - 00:14:59:18
Stacey
It's right.
00:14:59:18 - 00:15:24:03
Dori
It's appealing. Especially to people who don't. How to a lot. I, you know, they want to provide for their families. And a lot of the people in this documentary, it was very sad. Again, this was ten years ago that the documentary was was filmed, but it's extremely it really tugged. This is why I know you are too. But this is why I'm so like into these.
00:15:24:03 - 00:15:33:07
Dori
Because it's the injustice of of of what goes on in, in these cults and, and in schools at my heart.
00:15:33:09 - 00:15:51:21
Stacey
It pulls at my heart too, because once you're in it and you get wound up in it, there's that cognitive dissonance that we talk about all the time. And you think, I mean, if I get out of this, then what does it say about me? If I say no, what does it say about me? Oh, shoot. Now everybody's going to know that this was indeed a pyramid scheme.
00:15:52:02 - 00:16:11:15
Stacey
And I feel, you know, it's this it's a really slippery slope. A lot of people have to recover from being part of these things. And not only do they lose money, they lose friends, they lose family members. They, you know, then the cult, immediately shuts them out. They're not real friends. It's not a real community. It definitely preys on mothers.
00:16:11:17 - 00:16:29:17
Stacey
You can work from your phone in pockets of your day, but they're doing it all day. I mean, I heard a podcast the other day, a woman only took one day off when she had her C-section. Otherwise she was shilling stuff and trying to grift while she was in a hospital bed. Because if you stop, you lose your rank.
00:16:29:19 - 00:16:32:23
Stacey
You don't get a free car. Nobody gets a free car.
00:16:32:23 - 00:16:50:11
Dori
they make you buy all this product up front and then like, I know one of the guys in the documentary was saying, like, you know, he just he was told by Moore, keep up your, you know, like you were saying, Stacey, like keep going, buy more.
00:17:04:05 - 00:17:14:14
Speaker 1
that make me feel so sad. Because I believe to this person that I. I thought he was my my friend.
00:17:15:03 - 00:17:32:22
Speaker 2
But I realized in four months that I was not making any money. He lied to me. He was just, interested in making me spend all my money because he wasn't getting commission. That's what I realized.
00:17:35:15 - 00:17:44:24
Speaker 1
I lost a lot. I lost my money. That they had to keep my construction company running.
00:17:44:24 - 00:18:12:05
Dori
And so he's mine. All this and some of those guys were like, yeah we have like a storage unit sealed with this stuff. I'm sure to this day it's not only Herbalife, it is these types of Stacey. And I know we both watched these, you know, documentaries, listened to these podcasts about multiple products like this that are still to this day being sold.
00:18:12:10 - 00:18:23:20
Dori
And all these people have lost money. You know, trying to better their lives to make money. They end up losing money.
00:18:23:22 - 00:18:37:06
Stacey
Yeah. And again, it not only does it not better your life, you get into debt and you can't get it back. They shut you out. Then if you have to hire a lawyer or hopefully a pro bono lawyer like this nice man did
00:18:37:06 - 00:19:00:04
Stacey
It's so frustrating because these people, they they want to trust in the American dream. They want to trust in. That's not the American dream. It's the opposite of the American dream. You need to work and make a paycheck, not work, work, work do. And by the way, free promotion. These companies don't necessarily have to advertise. They don't need to.
00:19:00:05 - 00:19:27:20
Stacey
They're getting promotion from the reps, and the reps are the best customers. Because when you get to the end of the month and you got to buy into so you can continue keeping your rank, if you don't have your rank, you lose your rank. You lose the money, you lose. It's just a trickle down situation and the car thing, when they say you get like a Mercedes for this company and a Cadillac for that, they give you, if you're a certain ranking, they give you a certain amount of money per month that you can use toward a car.
00:19:27:22 - 00:19:36:01
Stacey
Doesn't mean I mean you might lose that ranking and then you lose the car. So you're not getting a free car. You're not. It's the whole thing is so
00:19:36:01 - 00:19:37:07
Stacey
dare I say it.
00:19:37:07 - 00:19:39:04
Stacey
It's just low class
00:19:39:04 - 00:19:51:08
Dori
But the fact you're talking about cars and all of that, like it's such a small percentage of people that would even be close to even thinking about getting a car.
00:19:51:08 - 00:20:01:24
Dori
I would love to bring in the doctor. Doctor John, I know, I know you, I know you've tied him up in well, he's tied
00:20:02:01 - 00:20:08:15
Stacey
And not only that, I mean, he we ran out of donuts, and now he's got Carol's cookies.
00:20:08:18 - 00:20:12:10
Dori
Oh, I thought he was Herbalife. I thought of you. We got well today.
00:20:12:10 - 00:20:15:05
Stacey
Well, we were going to dump a bunch of vitamins on his head.
00:20:15:05 - 00:20:19:22
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:20:19:22 - 00:20:21:04
Stacey
there he is.
00:20:21:10 - 00:20:27:23
Dr. John
But I'm rather. Certainly as I closed the green room door here. No donuts. Boom.
00:20:28:02 - 00:20:29:05
Stacey
No donuts today.
00:20:29:08 - 00:20:31:09
Dr. John
I might be right here. And donuts are there.
00:20:31:10 - 00:20:35:02
Dori
Are there Herbalife shakes, shakes for you.
00:20:35:04 - 00:20:38:24
Dr. John
There is a there is some patterns. I don't know if they were. What brand were they.
00:20:39:01 - 00:20:42:21
Stacey
Carried the Carol's cookies. You know the cookies I, I left those and.
00:20:42:23 - 00:20:44:13
Dr. John
Get her to be a sponsor here.
00:20:44:13 - 00:20:47:06
Dori
But yeah that's what I was doing.
00:20:47:08 - 00:20:48:08
Stacey
Delicious. They were a.
00:20:48:08 - 00:21:09:22
Dr. John
Little stale, but they were good. But I have a lot, as always, a lot to say. And as I was listening in the green room in the famous green room, and both of you and, you know, as as you both started out, I really expected you to both to be a little more pissed off the newer.
00:21:09:23 - 00:21:51:19
Dr. John
Because I think this is I think we need to use terms like evil and, criminal and, abusive when we talk about an organization like this and particularly this organization, this is to me. And, you know, I, I deal with criminal behavior and people that are getting maimed and killed and physically abused, but this is lifelong ruining people's lives and, destroying their their ability to to provide for their family.
00:21:51:21 - 00:22:33:09
Dr. John
It's at the core, I think one of the most torturous things that you can do to somebody what they have done. And as you were saying before I walked in, this whole idea of taking people at maybe the lowest ring realm or ring or of our society and, preying on them and the stories audience. If you watch this video, the stories of how these people, you know, just believed in this one guy that comes to my mind, if you remember the Hispanic fella who owned his own very successful construction company and he got pitched for Herbalife and he goes, well, this seems even better.
00:22:33:11 - 00:22:59:06
Dr. John
You know, I'm kind of tired of, you know, getting my fingers dirty and working to the bone. And this could this is a great income. And he lost everything. He lost his construction company. He, he folded up the Herbalife. He, lost, I think something like $25,000. And, and it was it's just this is torturous, what with this organization is doing, the people.
00:22:59:06 - 00:23:18:11
Stacey
My daughter took rhythmic gymnastics from this really kind woman. I'm not sure where she was from, so let's just say she was from Mexico. I don't remember, she was from. She did not speak English. Very, very good English. And she was recruited for Tupperware.
00:23:18:13 - 00:23:43:22
Stacey
And I went to her party, and I bought a ton of stuff because I felt awful for this woman. And they're like, we're helping her. We're helping her start her business. She's not doing it anymore, obviously, because she couldn't maintain you cannot maintain a business where you're having parties and recruiting when English isn't your first language. You're here in this country, you're trying to stay in the country.
00:23:43:22 - 00:23:54:18
Stacey
Let's just say you're not legal and the irony is that all these people who want to, you know, who want to get rid of people in this country are the same people recruiting them
00:23:54:18 - 00:23:57:21
Stacey
It the hypocrisy is off the charts.
00:23:57:23 - 00:24:28:23
Dr. John
Let's let's go also to the science behind this Herbalife. Stuff. Coincidentally, I have a connection with this because some years ago I wrote a book on family health and nutrition, weight loss, etc. called Family Fit, and I investigated Herbalife. I didn't like Dorie, I didn't, I never heard of them. I and by the way, I forgot as we gave this as an assignment for our podcast here, right?
00:24:29:02 - 00:24:52:24
Dr. John
I forgot about them. None of them. Oh, yeah. I researched them some years ago when I was doing the book. And here's the bottom line. As they said in the documentary, it's not about these products, which are overly expensive. You can get better products, you know, and your grocery shelf or at Amazon just doing a little research.
00:24:53:03 - 00:25:02:24
Dr. John
So nutritionally they don't hold up and they're God awful expensive. So the the products are like nothing. And as we've been and you
00:25:02:24 - 00:25:04:10
Dr. John
were empathy and
00:25:04:10 - 00:25:17:19
Dr. John
emphasizing before I came on was that it's not about the products, it's about the, you know, recruiting people to do these things, this army of people. But these products are really empty.
00:25:17:21 - 00:25:20:10
Stacey
They're empty products. Yeah. Yep.
00:25:20:10 - 00:25:50:05
Speaker 1
You open your intrusion club, you realize you've got to recruit people and start making a commission from your down lines. But I couldn't lie to people and tell them, you're going to make really good money. When I knew I had five nutrition clubs that have been operating for six months, and we had yet to turn a profit. So, we tried to make their business model work and stay away from the recruiting and trying to sell the dream.
00:25:50:08 - 00:26:17:18
Speaker 1
We tried to just sell the products. It didn't work. Products are too expensive. And, you know, you're trying to get people to drink a liquid shake over eating a meal. I mean, you're going against human nature here. For the most part, we would eat half of it, trying to sell the other half. And what happened to the rest?
00:26:17:20 - 00:26:19:18
Speaker 1
Well, you throw in the dumpster.
00:26:21:16 - 00:26:44:02
Dori
Yeah. It's been a company then. Okay, so they're shitty products, is what you're all saying. They don't have a great nutritional value. How is it still a company today? And thriving? Not only did I go to their website and do all that, but I looked at their job openings. They have a ton of corporate job openings as well.
00:26:44:08 - 00:26:53:15
Dori
Not just like for sales reps, but for I.T professionals and supply chain. How?
00:26:53:17 - 00:27:17:20
Stacey
Well, first of all, there's always people to manipulate, okay. And there there is such a strong love bombing that happens in the beginning of I'm going to take care of you. You have a team of people and not everybody is as happened. And up on all these scams and the fact that they are scams, there are all there are just like there are people out there that we disagree with.
00:27:17:20 - 00:27:36:03
Stacey
There are those people out there and they buy into this. Sometimes they say you have to ask them seven times when they say no, it doesn't mean no, which I think is the opposite of anything in our world. Like, would you ever tell your kid if somebody says, no, keep asking. I mean, really, what kind of lesson?
00:27:36:03 - 00:27:57:08
Stacey
I really believe that the people that get recruited, they really believe in it. And then when they're in, they can't get out and they try to recruit people as well. I, I know that they are they're they're brainwashed. They're brainwashed. Why is it still thriving? Because all of these companies, for some reason, are getting under the radar.
00:27:57:09 - 00:28:00:00
Stacey
The FTC is not busting them.
00:28:00:02 - 00:28:36:13
Dr. John
I think one of the audience needs to hear, I think, an extremely telling statistic that goes right to the point of what you're talking about, and that is 80% of the people, if you remember the statistic, 80% of the people quit, 80% of the people that are recruited into this Herbalife quit, but they're almost immediately replaced because the the recruiting is so strong and so successful that, okay, 80%, 80% of people quit this, which implies it doesn't work.
00:28:36:15 - 00:28:47:16
Dr. John
You would think nobody would join a situation like this, but the amazing statistic is that they get replaced almost immediately. It's just incredible.
00:28:47:16 - 00:28:52:12
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:28:52:12 - 00:29:15:12
Dori
so what is it say about me? I'm going a little off topic here in all of our episodes. I find some of these horrendous people attractive. Bill Ackman is has a hot piece of something, something. He is not like him. 59 years old.
00:29:15:14 - 00:29:18:07
Stacey
And free to be with you.
00:29:18:09 - 00:29:41:21
Dori
So like. But doctor, these people are horrendous. They, you know, like I said, like that ex Disney. Michael Johnson is still with the company, but yet I find some of these terrible people attractive. So what does it say about me?
00:29:41:23 - 00:30:15:18
Dr. John
No, it doesn't say necessarily anything about you, Dory. Think about it. These things are not based on, you know, the products being good and the products sell themselves. You know, in so many things in, in good companies, ethical companies, there's a little model that the product sells itself. You know, it's a good product. It'll sell itself. But look at you made a great point so far in our podcast we're examining these people under they're attractive people.
00:30:15:20 - 00:30:22:19
Dr. John
Why were you going to follow? Well, I want to listen to somebody that kind of shows up at the podium. That kind of looks good,
00:30:22:19 - 00:30:35:05
Dr. John
you know? But I will say two things before I. I want to hear what you're saying. Look at the original founder. This mark used these these pictures of he had like a, a weird bouffant hair.
00:30:35:07 - 00:30:40:00
Dr. John
Is it called Baphomet? The hairdo? You know, it was the weird hair.
00:30:40:02 - 00:30:46:02
Dori
And you look like a little boy. See? Knew he's definitely like a follower of Xenu, for sure. But I guess.
00:30:46:04 - 00:31:15:09
Dr. John
I also want to point out before I give it up to you guys, I made a note to myself this Des Walsh, who was the president of, Herbalife and Michael O. Johnson. I think there's some kind of demons or something like that. This. Does Walsh look like a vampire? He had these, like, pointy little teeth and a little mouth, and now he's talking like me, me, me me me me me me.
00:31:15:11 - 00:31:24:12
Dr. John
And this Michael Johnson chassis. He has, like, elephant ears and like, this angular face like that. You know, maybe they're not even real people. They might be.
00:31:24:12 - 00:31:30:01
Dori
Asian. I liked any of them, but definitely that below me. Call me out. Ackman.
00:31:30:01 - 00:31:34:03
Dori
Give me a ring. Sometimes I'm a yes Jewish girl in Chicago.
00:31:34:08 - 00:31:35:21
Stacey
Yes. And he is a Jew.
00:31:35:21 - 00:31:53:10
Stacey
I feel and maybe, maybe I'm just, speculating or assuming. But there did seem to be a little bit of anti-Semitism with him. With people toward him. Maybe I was reading into it, but it felt there was. So I read about him.
00:31:53:10 - 00:31:55:23
Dori
I read up about him. And you are right. Yeah.
00:31:56:03 - 00:32:27:03
Stacey
And and Ackman here's two two things I'm going to talk about Ackman in a second. The reason that people go through with the recruiting is religion. Religion is used to manipulate spiritual manipulation Jesus God. And if you put your the work in you will make it. It is it it's in it's constant and the the phrasing. I hate phrases, but pour into us or in this season or walk with me.
00:32:27:05 - 00:32:44:16
Dr. John
look at the audience when they have these big meetings. Did you notice the similarity in the audience when they have these big summits here for Herbalife? Didn't they look like exactly the type of audiences that were in the their Shamblin meetings?
00:32:44:16 - 00:32:45:15
Dori
They did, yes.
00:32:45:17 - 00:32:52:05
Dr. John
They discuss big smiles on their face and in adoring looks like anything that this. Michael.
00:32:52:08 - 00:32:52:22
Stacey
Yes.
00:32:52:22 - 00:32:58:20
Dr. John
Branson said. It's just it's just peachy and just wonderful and oh, we want to just cheer you on.
00:32:58:20 - 00:32:59:13
Dori
Yes.
00:32:59:15 - 00:33:00:24
Stacey
I feel the same.
00:33:00:24 - 00:33:29:12
Dr. John
Green smiles and I want I wanted to come out with both barrels smoking to say I agree with Stacy. This is a cult. This is a cult. And I think we have an opportunity here for pod Candy, our our podcast to added a new category to to cults. The research says that there's there's the categories of cults are.
00:33:29:12 - 00:33:54:02
Dr. John
And I'm going to look at a research paper here. It says the types of cults are doomsday cults, political cults, religious cults, sex cults. I think pod candy needs to divert to state right here a new type of cult. I don't know what to call it yet, but it's this whole multi-level marketing pyramid scheme. Financial cults.
00:33:54:02 - 00:34:11:10
Dori
breaking news. Doctor John Mayer has just said that we have a new category of cults. We don't know the name of the category, but it has something to do with multi-level marketing.
00:34:11:12 - 00:34:14:02
Stacey
We call it MLM cult.
00:34:14:04 - 00:34:15:23
Dr. John
How about money cult?
00:34:16:00 - 00:34:17:23
Stacey
Money cult?
00:34:18:00 - 00:34:19:16
Dori
I like MLM cult.
00:34:19:22 - 00:34:35:17
Stacey
MLM cult because it shows multi-level marketing and everybody knows what MLM is. I am can I just say I am very happy to hear this because it does contain, as John will tell us from being a therapist, the Bite model,
00:34:35:17 - 00:34:55:16
Stacey
all MLMs use the bite model behavior, information, thought and emotional control. That is what they do. Anything that involves those four things is a cult. It's a cult. There's always a leader at the top or the person in your upline. It's a cult. Okay.
00:34:55:18 - 00:35:23:20
Dr. John
Well, you're expanding on that. I mean, the research shows the definition of of cults as having. I won't go through all of them, but charismatic leadership, that certainly was a part of this Herbalife extreme beliefs and practices you're going to make. You're going to make thousands of dollars. Remember, even from the beginning of this, you got to look at the time in which it started.
00:35:23:22 - 00:35:57:08
Dr. John
You're going to make a minimum of $40,000 extra a year in this. In those days was probably $100,000 that he's promising. So the control and manipulation, Stacy talked about it earlier how if you're not doing your upline, you're you're kicked out or whatever, high commitment demands secrecy. Also also part of this, you know, Herbalife, obedience, social distancing, I think we all ask of, of the recording here.
00:35:57:08 - 00:36:25:04
Dr. John
I've talked about friends that we knew that are in these MLM, and they kind of isolate themselves from other people, you know, because that's all they're talking about. They're always thinking about or talking about is that how to get you into their upline, etc.. Exploitation. Another aspect of of cults, and social deviance. These people are kind of apart from society and what they do.
00:36:25:06 - 00:36:32:20
Dr. John
These are the major characteristics that research says make up cults. Herbalife has all those ingredients.
00:36:32:20 - 00:36:37:16
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:36:37:20 - 00:36:47:13
Stacey
What do you think of Bill Ackman was his I did feel that he was passionate and wanted to help.
00:36:47:15 - 00:36:53:23
Dr. John
I was confused at first. I didn't know whether I liked him. I didn't like him.
00:36:54:00 - 00:36:58:15
Dori
Well, I obviously loved him, but.
00:36:58:17 - 00:37:33:01
Dori
Now I, I, I it is twofold right? He definitely wants to make a buck. It's obvious. I mean, that's why he does what he does. However, I there is no can I I'll just say this. I didn't find any compassion with him. I think he was calling out that this is a pyramid scheme and he knows it's not like it's it's not a great business model and it preys on these people.
00:37:33:03 - 00:37:34:06
Dr. John
But.
00:37:34:08 - 00:37:55:02
Dori
You know, as much as I think he's hot, take taxi. I really don't think he necessarily, like, cares about these people. I think he was really into it for the money. And I think he's a human being, and he doesn't want people, you know, to be taken advantage of. But I don't think he'd go to the ends of the earth for these people.
00:37:55:02 - 00:38:01:19
Dori
Like the attorney did, you know, to try to get them a better settlement? That's just my take.
00:38:01:21 - 00:38:29:13
Dr. John
Well, I agree, I think, more of a heroic individual as this attorney Brooks, I think his name was Douglas Brooks, who, filed the class action suit for the actually the Chicago group, the Chicago Hispanic group that was being exploited. And the class action suit was, heard in, in Los Angeles and California and, he's a hero.
00:38:29:13 - 00:38:34:14
Dr. John
This this Douglas Brooks is an amazing hero for these people.
00:38:46:20 - 00:38:56:04
Speaker 2
Herbalife distributors. Herbalife is paying a settlement fund of $15 million. This works out to about $10 a person.
00:38:56:04 - 00:39:08:02
Speaker 2
I'm saying to the judge that of at least 280,000 people reached supervisor level, and the average losses are around 8000, or maybe even more.
00:39:09:02 - 00:39:12:14
Speaker 2
I think the the aggregate damages for the class are between
00:39:18:04 - 00:39:30:04
Dr. John
And the sad thing about it, we can give a little spoiler here is that, all their effort in the class action suit, was squashed by some judge,
00:39:30:04 - 00:39:35:14
Dr. John
a judge knocked it down. And, it was really sad. It was really very sad.
00:39:37:07 - 00:39:55:22
Speaker 1
Well, every once in a while, you get kicked in the head, and I just got kicked in the head. Oh, yeah. I think it's there's very little doubt that she is going to approve the settlement. She rejected every argument that I made. I didn't score a single point.
00:39:55:24 - 00:40:00:23
Speaker 1
Nothing. Nothing moved her. Not the slightest.
00:40:17:06 - 00:40:23:23
Dori
have either of you ever tried anything from Herbalife? I know they have bars now. Have have you guys tried any of it?
00:40:24:00 - 00:40:50:08
Dr. John
No, because again, I searched it and for much less money, you can get great products. I am a, a vitamin and health drink guy. I, you know, I don't I'm not obsessed with it, but I, you know, I do take vitamins and and I research this stuff. And they came up so poor and, you know, the research that it's I wouldn't even touch I wouldn't even touch the products.
00:40:50:10 - 00:40:52:05
Dr. John
And no interesting.
00:40:52:05 - 00:40:54:10
Dori
the doctor looks so handsome. Everybody.
00:40:54:10 - 00:40:56:13
Stacey
The doctor? Yeah. The doctor, the doctor.
00:40:56:13 - 00:41:00:05
Dori
So thank you. So whatever. I'll have. What else? Oh, wait.
00:41:00:05 - 00:41:09:11
Stacey
Can I ask you something? Dory? Yeah, you. You're on it. You're on a boat and you got John and Bill Ackman. Who do you say?
00:41:09:13 - 00:41:13:10
Dori
Bill Ackman 100%. Sorry. Sorry, doctor.
00:41:13:11 - 00:41:16:07
Dr. John
I'm going I'm going back in the green room here.
00:41:16:08 - 00:41:20:05
Dori
When I say something I have to make a confession. By the way.
00:41:20:05 - 00:41:22:09
Dr. John
I have to agree I.
00:41:22:09 - 00:41:37:13
Dori
Was also a big Avenatti person. Remember he was the lawyer for stormy Daniels and he is now in prison. So I am a terrible judge of hotness, everybody.
00:41:37:13 - 00:41:40:07
Dr. John
So don't make me feel better.
00:41:40:09 - 00:41:48:21
Dori
Yeah. So most people would probably save the doctor, but, you know, I'll go out swinging for for Bill Ackman. I'll go. Go. Yeah.
00:41:48:23 - 00:41:53:15
Stacey
Yeah. I mean Bill Ackman is probably circumcised. I mean he's a Jew. Wait.
00:41:53:15 - 00:41:57:22
Dori
Doctor John is not circumcised. I'm assuming he is.
00:41:58:03 - 00:42:00:11
Stacey
I'm assuming he is.
00:42:00:13 - 00:42:02:19
Dr. John
I'm not going to say on cam.
00:42:02:20 - 00:42:07:03
Stacey
You said he's not saying on camera but we're going to assume
00:42:07:03 - 00:42:11:24
Unknown
Oh. They.
00:42:11:24 - 00:42:41:04
Stacey
it's it's so interesting because when a somebody goes online on Facebook or, or or, you know, or comes up to you in person to ask you to join something immediately, the feeling I get is like, you know what I mean? It's like a very, it's, the feeling is tactile feeling. And, you know, I just feel it feels so wrong.
00:42:41:04 - 00:42:57:20
Stacey
And so. And I don't know how people let's talk about the people that are in the scheme. Are they to blame or are they brainwashed? You know what I mean? And so because I listen to a lot of really crappy multi-level marketing shilling grifters.
00:42:57:22 - 00:42:58:16
Dori
But yes.
00:42:58:16 - 00:43:25:09
Dr. John
I it's interesting that you brought up this conversation after we were talking about looks, etc., and I go back to, you know, these people are attractive. You know, they wear suits, they dress nice. Whether it's Ackman or Johnson, you know, etc. they, they look nice. They look professional. Well my God must must be somebody to pay attention to.
00:43:25:11 - 00:43:36:14
Dr. John
And they have a manner about them that's very compelling. That's all part of this this, you know, charismatic leadership that's so integral to cults.
00:43:36:14 - 00:43:50:17
Dori
I wonder what all those people, they got shafted. I wonder what they're up to today. You know, like, I really feel for every community. Yeah. That can be. I mean, they're in Chicago.
00:43:50:19 - 00:43:52:08
Stacey
Yeah, they're in Chicago.
00:43:52:10 - 00:44:12:00
Dr. John
And they were. That's what I brought up when I came out of the green room. Is that this is so heinous that this ruins people's lives. And it's not like, I hate to say this is going to be controversial. You know, you get shot and killed and you're done. It's, you know, you sit. But their whole lives are ruined.
00:44:12:02 - 00:44:18:14
Dr. John
And this I, I wonder if any of them really ever recovered, you know?
00:44:18:16 - 00:44:20:08
Stacey
No, I mean, you know, that that.
00:44:20:10 - 00:44:22:17
Dr. John
Just damaged their families. It's.
00:44:22:17 - 00:44:23:22
Stacey
Yes, it's this.
00:44:23:22 - 00:44:26:09
Dr. John
Is where it's so sick, you know, it's.
00:44:26:09 - 00:44:48:24
Stacey
So sad to take people that you think are less than and manipulate and control them and talk them into things. That is a crime. It is a very it's a crime. It's a crime to come up to somebody and assume they want to do something with you, or even ask them, like you don't talk, you don't try to get somebody to join your religion.
00:44:49:03 - 00:44:54:12
Stacey
You don't get somebody to join your cult. It's extremely it's what spy, I tell you.
00:44:54:12 - 00:45:19:04
Dori
You're so right, Stacy. And the sad thing is, like our unfortunately, our country really doesn't side with, you know, the people who are disenfranchized, they follow the money, follow the money, follow the money. You know, what did they say? I don't remember the numbers. I know you guys write this down, but like Herbalife at the time was worth, what, like billions of dollars.
00:45:19:04 - 00:45:26:11
Dori
And when they settled for this, like at what was it like 16 million or so, 1.6 something very. Yeah. Nothing.
00:45:26:16 - 00:45:33:10
Stacey
Nothing for these people. All these people. But like for people not poor, you know, poor people.
00:45:33:13 - 00:46:13:01
Dori
But that's the thing. And the company is still around today. And I think that it's obvious, especially like, you know, Stacy and I are so into all of these, you know, true stories. I mean, documentaries and these podcasts are about these true stories. And I think it is because it's so heartbreaking. That's what I mean. I it's why I watch it is because of the injustice and because I, it's like, I honestly can't believe that this stuff happens in our world.
00:46:13:01 - 00:46:20:02
Dori
And, you know, the and that there is very rarely are there big repercussions. Correct.
00:46:20:02 - 00:46:39:23
Stacey
And it's because it's it has religion around it. Christianity not not nothing else. But usually in angelic Christianity, but Christianity and Jesus, Jesus created this company. Jesus is that, you know, so everybody thinks it's good, it's good, it's good. Because if Jesus. But ironically, Jesus took.
00:46:40:00 - 00:46:40:24
Dori
He took he took those.
00:46:40:24 - 00:47:02:14
Stacey
Tables and flipped him over in the temple. He would not have approved of manipulating people and and recruiting them. Jesus was not a person. You know, this is the opposite of Jesus. And the problem is that's what's happening in our country. Our country is becoming this evangelical, Christian, right wing country that is shilling and grifting.
00:47:02:14 - 00:47:13:06
Dori
wait. But when you said the Jesus flipping that it did remind me of Teresa. Judy is from the Real Housewives of New Jersey. Like, all I could see was her flipping the table.
00:47:13:08 - 00:47:14:04
Stacey
Like, well, you know.
00:47:14:05 - 00:47:16:22
Dr. John
I don't know that I don't watch those shows. Doris.
00:47:16:23 - 00:47:39:10
Stacey
I've directed Jakes a couple times, and I'm a big fan of The Jesus and the superstar, and I really and, you know, doing that show and working on it. And then I did a lot of research and research on Jesus. Like, I know it's hard to do that, but I read a lot, and you know, there was nothing about Jesus that was, multi-level marketing.
00:47:39:12 - 00:47:42:10
Dr. John
So you're right, it's all about the money.
00:47:42:10 - 00:47:44:13
Dori
But I think it's just sad that.
00:47:44:13 - 00:47:45:03
Stacey
Yeah.
00:47:45:05 - 00:47:58:11
Dori
That whether it be religion and again, it is. You're right. It is. But it's religion. People want to believe so badly that they get shafted.
00:47:58:11 - 00:48:17:11
Dr. John
Well, and my comment about the religion aspect is it's just they use this immorally as a tool to tell the people, you know, it's like, well, you know, this is God's way. So, you know, you you should behind behind it too. It's purely, an immoral sales tool, you know, for.
00:48:17:15 - 00:48:30:07
Stacey
Immoral and unethical and, one of the worst religious, MLM cults is, Mary Kay, Mary Kay on their live calls. They do, prayers for Joe.
00:48:30:07 - 00:48:32:01
Dr. John
Separate show now.
00:48:32:03 - 00:48:37:13
Stacey
Separate show. But it's the same thing. It's the same thing. Wait.
00:48:37:15 - 00:48:48:09
Dori
Wait. I'm very fascinated by this. So, Mary Kay, they. What do you. So that was also another one that is a religious, and all of that because.
00:48:48:11 - 00:49:18:00
Stacey
Well, it's not that the cult itself is religious. It's the people in it that bring religion is part of the love bombing and the manipulation and the selling and everything. So, most of the most of the companies that I listen to on my YouTube, prove it. Herbalife, Amway, Mary Kay, Avon, there's a million. I mean, there's, I mean, there's a lot.
00:49:18:02 - 00:49:28:18
Stacey
So all of the Olive tree people, all of a, you know, I mean, I listen to every single one, but the worst one is, is Mary Kay. How come they have these.
00:49:28:23 - 00:49:29:09
Dori
Women.
00:49:29:12 - 00:49:31:05
Dr. John
Documentary on them?
00:49:31:07 - 00:49:41:17
Stacey
There wasn't. We made two. We made two because there's one episode. It's so rage, baby. Like, it rages. You know, it's rage bait. This woman comes and she goes.
00:49:41:19 - 00:49:44:20
Dori
And they have these voices, and they just talk like this.
00:49:44:22 - 00:50:02:11
Stacey
And, you know, and they all have vocal fry because they're screaming everybody. But, you know, and, you know, I want to take a second to thank our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for this company and for giving us the opportunity to meet together as a community and pour into each other and, and walk together, you know, you know.
00:50:02:11 - 00:50:06:05
Dr. John
It's my wallet. So I what, what I get, what do I yeah, yeah.
00:50:06:05 - 00:50:36:21
Dori
Yeah, here's a living. All of this money away. But yeah. So Stacy you know a lot of these stories. So with Herbalife was this one of the main ones that kind of preys on immigrants? And, you know, because they've also gone to other countries that, well, also like Latin American countries to open divisions. Is this one of the main or do they all target, like, you know.
00:50:36:23 - 00:50:44:20
Stacey
Immigrants in one way or another? They all target people that are possibly not.
00:50:44:22 - 00:50:45:11
Dr. John
Vulnerable.
00:50:45:11 - 00:51:10:06
Stacey
And they're they're vulnerable people. So, there's examples from every single MLM of different things. The only thing I've seen in this exact way where they're targeting, you know, immigrant people, is this Herbalife one, but all of them go after those, you know, go after low income people, vulnerable people and women, women because they make them feel guilty.
00:51:10:07 - 00:51:18:21
Stacey
You need to stay home with your kids. Your kids need you. I wanted to stay home with my kids. So I joined this thing and I was able to meet this community. And now we all go to church together.
00:51:19:16 - 00:51:26:09
Speaker 1
The FTC has charged Herbalife with deceiving hundreds of thousands of hopeful people
00:51:26:09 - 00:51:51:21
Speaker 1
who saw Herbalife promotional campaigns in English and in Spanish, and signed on for what they thought was a legitimate and lucrative business opportunity. The FTC has charged that this wasn't true, that the dream portrayed by Herbalife was an illusion. The vast majority of Herbalife distributors found they could make little or no money selling Herbalife products.
00:51:51:23 - 00:51:59:20
Speaker 1
People who leased space to open a nutrition club and worked long hours, made no money or lost money.
00:51:59:20 - 00:52:15:08
Speaker 1
The small minority of Herbalife distributors, who did make a lot of money, were paid by Herbalife not for selling the company's products, but for buying the products themselves, and then successfully recruiting large networks of others to do the same.
00:52:15:10 - 00:52:39:03
Speaker 1
That's why, in addition to charging deception, the complaint alleges that Herbalife compensation structure is unfair because it rewards its distributors for recruiting others to join and purchase products to advance in the marketing program, rather than in response to actual retail demand for the product.
00:52:39:03 - 00:52:54:02
Dr. John
even Ackman, the guy who was their nemesis, said, you know what what they built was brilliant. That, you know, this stuff is really brilliant. When you get down to it, the whole recruiting it's it's immoral.
00:52:54:02 - 00:53:01:06
Dr. John
It's illegal. Yeah. It's a cult but it's brilliant. You know, that's.
00:53:01:07 - 00:53:02:15
Dori
Yeah, it's a money maker.
00:53:02:18 - 00:53:11:22
Dr. John
Yeah. And that's why it's back to your comment from the beginning of our episode here. Why is it still exist? Because it it works. You know, there's.
00:53:11:22 - 00:53:16:10
Stacey
It slides under the radar. It scans the radar. There are.
00:53:16:10 - 00:53:33:01
Dori
Some company. Sorry, I haven't heard of. No, I haven't, I haven't heard of Herbalife in years. That's how crazy this is. That's why I had to look it up and see that it is still a flourishing business.
00:53:33:01 - 00:53:47:10
Dr. John
And that's why it qualifies as a cult. Remember, one of the aspects of a cult is kind of, you know, against the culture. It's it's hidden. It's social deviants kind of thing. It's underground, you know?
00:53:47:10 - 00:54:00:02
Stacey
Herbalife and other companies that are still that still exist are floundering. Now, I hear this is what I've heard. This is a legit I mean I've heard this on podcast so I'm not nothing is fact okay. But
00:54:00:02 - 00:54:10:15
Stacey
Herbalife. Prove it. Prove it actually merged with another company. That cleaning company that I can't remember the name of. Amway, but, not Amway.
00:54:10:15 - 00:54:13:05
Stacey
A different one, but Amway is the big one.
00:54:13:05 - 00:54:16:09
Dori
Scrub daddy, you know.
00:54:16:11 - 00:54:36:16
Stacey
No, it's one of those. It's another, Shaklee. Shaklee and prove it are now together. Why? Why? Okay, because they really, you know, they're losing something and they have to fight, you know? But a few companies have got an affiliate. Rodan and fields has got an affiliate, beach,
00:54:36:16 - 00:54:39:20
Stacey
otherwise known as body has got an affiliate.
00:54:39:24 - 00:54:58:09
Stacey
So these people they they're touting these companies. This is the best product. This is the best product. They go affiliate. You know what? Now I'm leaving and this is the best product over here. And now this is the best product. It's irrelevant. In fact, one company called Make Wellness doesn't even have product yet. And they've recruited hundreds of people.
00:54:58:11 - 00:55:11:00
Stacey
So they're not doing well. There will be more affiliates that come out of this affiliate, meaning they just sell the product. There's no recruitment that is legal and it is okay, I can sell you this water bottle,
00:55:11:06 - 00:55:23:09
Dori
I'm actually shocked that there are so that you are naming all of these products. It's almost like a QVC thing. Like it's a world that I know nothing about.
00:55:23:10 - 00:55:23:24
Dr. John
Thank God.
00:55:24:00 - 00:55:30:09
Stacey
I asked me why. Why do I know this and why am I interested? What is wrong? I know Stacy.
00:55:30:09 - 00:56:02:01
Dori
But you've also had like a little firsthand knowledge of some of these. But like, I am actually like, I, I'm actually in all of you that, you know, all of these and it is weird like the fact like, you know, I'm pretty hip to the culture. Like, I know what's what's up, but like, how do all these people, how, you know, they all stay in business, obviously, and you're talking about mergers, where do they find all these people to continue to buy all of this?
00:56:02:01 - 00:56:16:22
Stacey
I'm not because they promise. They promise things. They do big shows, they shower you. It's it's like being in a relationship with a narcissist. They love bam you. And then they get you in and then they manipulate you.
00:56:16:24 - 00:56:38:18
Dori
But it's also two, right that they buy the stuff first. So they're already getting they all all of these make you buy things up from in a box, in the box business, in a box. So even if you want to leave, they don't care because you've already purchased the the $300 to get do care.
00:56:38:22 - 00:56:51:05
Stacey
They do care. They don't just want you to purchase the 300. They need you to recruit more people. If you're not doing well, they burn you so that you know that you're not trying hard enough and it's your fault.
00:56:51:05 - 00:56:52:12
Dori
It's completely the.
00:56:52:12 - 00:56:56:14
Stacey
Same as any other cult we were talking about. John, you had something to say?
00:56:56:14 - 00:57:07:03
Dr. John
Well, yeah, I wanted to put some underline on what, Doris? And where are they finding all these people yet? We have a country of, what, 300 million people? And.
00:57:07:03 - 00:57:07:21
Stacey
Oh, really?
00:57:07:23 - 00:57:44:19
Dr. John
You know, it doesn't take it doesn't take much to find, you know, a million, 2 million people. That's a small percentage of our country that you can dupe like this. And now they're in 93 countries. So they're it's a matter of metrics, you know, is that, you know, and I don't know how much you guys have ever been in marketing strategy, but I remember in some meeting I was consulting to a company and they said, you know, the statistics will tell us that, you know, no matter what we do, 10% of the people will listen to this or take take this up or buy our product.
00:57:44:21 - 00:57:57:21
Dr. John
He's talking about 10% of 300 million people, a billion people in the in other 93 countries. That's big money. Even 10% of 10% of the people will fall for it.
00:57:57:23 - 00:58:14:19
Stacey
By the way, what other job do you hear about where people talk about how much money they make? They talk about the money. They they yell at you and manipulate you. They love them. You they convince you. They you know what other what other job lawyers. And by the way, you can't leave and go home and stop doing it.
00:58:14:19 - 00:58:16:20
Stacey
You're doing it all day long.
00:58:16:22 - 00:58:19:07
Dr. John
It's the I said lawyers. Lawyers.
00:58:19:09 - 00:58:22:09
Dori
Yeah, right.
00:58:22:09 - 00:58:47:17
Dori
Weird. How are these companies still thriving after all these years? Like like the people buying it, not the people selling it, but are there truly, like Herbalife? I mean, there must be, obviously, since is this huge company still like enthusiasts of Herbalife or like Avon to me or Mary Kay Cosmetics?
00:58:47:17 - 00:58:58:13
Dori
Seems like so long ago. Is that still a thriving business where I can go and find, you know, some Avon lipstick if I want to?
00:58:58:17 - 00:59:34:05
Dr. John
Well, Dory, it gets back down to, my role in this, these episodes is it's the human mind and psychology. You know, if you're brainwashed by these companies to to think these products are great, these products will do this. Yeah, they're great, etc. and they're really not. People will be enthusiastic about it. I don't know much about this, Mary Kay, but it's been in my world, you know, in my family and etc. and when people talk about I said, this is the best makeup I've ever had, you know?
00:59:34:11 - 00:59:42:14
Dr. John
And look what it can do. What you think. They believe it because they're brainwashed by the charismatic leadership of the cult.
00:59:42:16 - 01:00:06:22
Stacey
I just look something up. So, I have I think I have read or listen to this book Selling the Dream. I think a lot of people recruited into MLM have bought into the American Dream more than others. They believe in bootstrap thinking and the power of positivity, and that in this country, anyone can do anything, and anything is possible if you just put your mind to it.
01:00:06:24 - 01:00:17:17
Stacey
Is that possible? I mean, have you ever, you know, I've put my mind to stuff and done some stuff, but you can't put your mind into making money. I think money doesn't just come because of your energy. Sorry.
01:00:17:18 - 01:00:29:24
Dr. John
Let's bring up and we might want to take this as a whole episode. Do you remember that, thing that was going on in society a few years ago? Even Oprah got behind it. What was it, the secret or something like that?
01:00:30:01 - 01:00:30:19
Dori
Yeah, the.
01:00:30:19 - 01:00:38:12
Dr. John
Whole premise of that is that if you just believed it and wished for it, it would come true. You know, it was good for you.
01:00:38:14 - 01:00:47:02
Dori
But nowadays manifesting, I mean, I have tons of friends that are into manifesting, so it may go hand in hand. That's a call that.
01:00:47:04 - 01:00:48:14
Stacey
Like it's just.
01:00:48:16 - 01:00:49:16
Dori
A 100%.
01:00:49:16 - 01:00:51:17
Dr. John
And I actually use your episodes right there.
01:00:51:17 - 01:01:20:03
Dori
I was on I know I was on a flight going, I think to Italy, and I was sitting next to this couple where they were going to a manifestation conference. And, the one woman, they met online dating or like through the apps and, she manifested it and she was telling me all about this, and then she was like, yes, I wasn't into manifestation until I met her.
01:01:20:07 - 01:01:28:16
Dori
But now, you know, we wanted a car and we got a car last year. And it was actually, I don't know.
01:01:28:18 - 01:01:36:12
Dr. John
Would you excuse me? Buy it, for a second one, like going to my bathroom and throw up. You know, it's.
01:01:36:14 - 01:01:36:24
Dori
11.
01:01:37:02 - 01:01:38:03
Stacey
Am I?
01:01:38:05 - 01:01:41:11
Dr. John
What kind of drivel is this stuff?
01:01:41:13 - 01:01:43:03
Dori
But it's very big now.
01:01:43:03 - 01:01:44:14
Stacey
And it's a huge thing.
01:01:44:16 - 01:01:46:15
Dori
To talk about, I think like this. Yeah.
01:01:46:15 - 01:02:05:11
Stacey
I mean, it's, it's, you know, one of the people I follow this Bethany Broughton, who's an opera singer, she's in Chicago. I've never met her, but I really want to meet her. She has an MLM. She was a member of body for about 5 or 6 years, and she's now recovering from that. But she was really into. And we can maybe bring her on the show manifestation as a thing.
01:02:05:12 - 01:02:07:23
Stacey
It is a thing. Dory is absolutely right.
01:02:07:23 - 01:02:09:19
Dr. John
I want to dig into this.
01:02:09:19 - 01:02:14:24
Unknown
Oh. They.
01:02:14:24 - 01:02:37:06
Dr. John
I really appreciated this discussion because the whole essence of what we're trying to do on pop Candy is to educate people is that things like that are like this Herbalife are out there. Be careful. As Dory said in the beginning of the broadcast here, you know, if it looks so good, you know what?
01:02:37:09 - 01:02:40:09
Stacey
If it looks so good to be true, it's too good to be true.
01:02:40:09 - 01:02:40:21
Dori
It is.
01:02:40:21 - 01:03:03:09
Stacey
Yeah, yeah. There's no free money. You don't get money from doing nothing. You don't. You have to work hard. You should learn a trade, work at McDonald's, work at Starbucks, work on DoorDash, anything where you make a salary or tips. Yeah, but you cannot rely on a multi-level marketing company to make you money because you don't get a paycheck unless you recruit.
01:03:03:09 - 01:03:08:22
Unknown
They.
01:03:08:22 - 01:03:18:19
Speaker 1
Stay tuned for our next episode on Till Swan. You can find the docu series The Deep End on Hulu, Apple TV or Prime TV.
01:03:18:23 - 01:03:19:06
Unknown
It's.
01:03:19:06 - 01:03:21:18
Speaker 1
A crime that has not been solved.
01:03:21:18 - 01:03:22:10
Speaker 1
So.
01:03:22:10 - 01:03:30:05
Speaker 1
Stay tuned for the unsolved mystery that we will try to solve together as a team.
01:03:30:05 - 01:03:50:16
Speaker 1
Our theme music is written and performed by Midnight Current. Check out more of their work on SoundCloud for more about us. And to catch up on every episode of Pod Candy, head over to pod Candy podcast.com. You can also find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you next time!
01:03:50:21 - 01:03:53:21
Speaker 1
Candy.
01:03:53:22 - 01:04:08:04
Unknown
I.
01:04:08:06 - 01:04:16:20
Unknown
Really?