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You became a coach to help people — but no one told you how to build the business behind it.
Coach as Entrepreneur is the show for coaches who want to go beyond referrals and create a real business that supports both their clients and their family. Each episode explores the systems, strategies, and stories that help coaches simplify marketing, attract the right clients, and grow sustainably, without burning out.
Whether you’re just starting or looking to scale, this is your roadmap to running your coaching practice like a business… and doing it with heart.
Build the system. Serve your clients. Support your family.
# Jonathan Marshall — Coach as Entrepreneur (Ep. 32) — Complete Transcript
## Added Intro (00:00 – 07:31)
[00:00:00] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** And look, a good psychologist doesn't suggest why you're coming in. A good psychologist asks a question like, what brings you in?
[00:00:10] **David:** Today we're joined by Dr. Jonathan Marshall, Stanford PhD, Harvard postdoc, former naval officer who helped build what became Yahoo Mail, and now one of Singapore's leading executive coaches and psychologists. John uniquely blends clinical psychology with leadership development to help people live and lead with greater authenticity. You became a coach to help people, but no one told you how to build the business behind it. Welcome to Coach as Entrepreneur, the show for coaches building real businesses with systems, strategy, and heart. Build the systems, serve your client, and support your family. Jonathan, thank you for meeting us today.
[00:00:47] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** It's a real pleasure. It really is.
[00:00:48] **David:** Well, I might as well admit to everybody, I didn't even realize you were one of the people who built Yahoo Mail because I used an AI tool to pull information about you and then draft your intro. [00:01:01] And then I've been so busy that I just saw it now.
[00:01:04] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** It was very, very exciting times. I lived in Silicon Valley. I was a Stanford student. And I just made one of those like remarkable mistakes. [00:01:12] It was in the days when a lot of people didn't, you know, like email was around, but when you rejected someone, you know, you might send them a letter. They had a job application, but if you accepted someone, you would phone them. That was just the protocol.
[00:01:24] **David:** Yeah.
[00:01:25] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** And my phone number, two numbers in my phone number, I transposed on my CV. They got them wrong way around. But what an incredible mistake. So I was sending out all these applications. I was like so down. [00:01:34] And there was this lady who was bugging me to try and help her book an auditorium at Stanford. And one night, it was a Friday night, and I was stressed. I didn't have a job yet. And I said to her, look, I'm doing this for you. Can you give me a job? And she said, come Monday morning, 9 a.m. By Tuesday morning, I had a job. [00:01:49] I was like, the Valley was so hungry. She's like, anyone. I was like, I don't know anything about computer science. I don't know anything about anything. My interview was like, that's fine. We'll take you tomorrow. [00:01:59] And it was a startup. It was called 411. And yeah, we were Hotmail. [00:02:04] We had this really cool tech, which was you typed in someone's name, and it might create, you might find their email address. [00:02:12] Then the engineers were like, hey, Hotmail, there's this thing, which is web-based email. What do you guys think? So we created Rocketmail, and it was incredibly exciting. [00:02:21] We had beds in the office. There were like 20 of us, 24 of us. You could stay there till, you know, if you were there at dinner time, which everyone was — one of the engineers would walk past and you'd shout a number. And I just would shout any number. I didn't know what numbers these were. [00:02:39] A Subway sandwich corresponding to that number. So if you chose a 23, you got a bologna sandwich, and bad luck to you. So everybody knew the right number. I was just like, let's just say a number. And we lived there. I mean, going home was about getting new clothes. [00:02:51] And yeah, at that time, one in 10 startups succeeded, and we were one in the 10.
[00:02:55] **David:** That was exciting times, right? Like —
[00:02:57] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Crazy exciting. Now, like, you get an email, get an image in the email. What's the big deal?
[00:03:02] **David:** Yeah.
[00:03:02] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** I remember there was a little stampede. Everybody rushed to this guy's cube, Chang. Chang was, like, the guy who did graphics. And I was like, what's going on? Come to Chang's cube. So I'm looking into Chang's cube. [00:03:14] All of us are crowded around as we're looking in the body of an email, the first time anyone had ever seen an image appear in an email. [00:03:51] Like, line by line. We're totally digressing from coaching. Should I continue or should we geek out later?
[00:03:55] **David:** We can geek out later. But I'm interested because it's like, how do you go from Stanford working with Rocketmail, [00:04:03] later to become Yahoo Mail, to becoming a coach. What's that path to becoming a coach from Stanford?
[00:04:09] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** I wanted to go to grad school. And so had things been slightly different — like my buddies, they made enough money to retire by the time they were 28, 30. I didn't get to enjoy those spoils because I went off to grad school. [00:04:22] And sometimes I scratch my head and go, it'd be nice to retire, right? At least have the money to retire. But I never regretted going to grad school. [00:04:31] My bachelor's was in psychology. My doctorate was in psychology. And I spent time — coaching in some ways as part of psychology. [00:04:39] At my postdoc stationed at Harvard Business School, people were coming in not just for psychopathology. I remember one guy — I looked at his intake form and it had a lot of good reasons for him to do therapy. [00:04:50] Like his cocaine, his alcohol. There were a number of things. I was like, wow. And I was dumb enough to say, what are you here for? Is it the alcohol? And he's like, no, I'm fine with my alcohol intake. I'm looking at it going — and I'm like, the Coke? And he's like, I am fine with my Coke. [00:05:08] And look, a good psychologist doesn't suggest why you're coming in. A good psychologist asks a question like, what brings you in? I had a long way to go. And he goes, I'm here because I'm the top student. And I'm like, and why are you seeing me? He's like, because someone's catching up. And your job is to help me kill him. [00:05:23] And I was like, what? Like, what am I, become an assassin's assistant now? And what he wanted was — he was self-sabotaging. [00:05:30] He had been this ace student, this play-hard, work-hard kind of guy. And he was handing his assignments in late for the first time. He was dropping the ball in different ways. And he was at the final furlong. He was close to graduating. And if you graduate from a place like that, top of class, you've set yourself apart. And he was self-sabotaging. [00:05:52] I can tell you because I've given you enough anonymized data that it would be impossible to track him. If I give anything that sounds unanonymized, you can assume it's not accurate. If I say Arabian prince, it probably means European princess. [00:06:05] So his deal was: his father was abusive. And he hated his father. His father had graduated from a B-grade business school and had been a mediocre businessman. But at some level, he wanted to look up to his dad. He was still a little boy inside, like all of us. [00:06:24] And if he graduated top of class in a very prestigious program, he at some level felt he would be betraying his father. So while he felt terrible hostility towards his father, he also longed to be the little boy who looked up to his father. [00:06:40] And so our work was this mixture of how do you create performance? But in his case, to create performance, we also needed to do some depth psychology. [00:06:48] And when I stood back from that, I was like, I'm bridging these two worlds of performance and depth psychology. And I love it. I love doing it. And I went from there. [00:06:58] So I became a faculty member, starting the psychology division at Nanyang Technological University of Singapore. I'm originally from Singapore. I went over to the National University of Singapore teaching psychology and leadership, and dovetailed into that. [00:07:11] But all along the way, I maintained a small clinical practice, but it became more and more focused on leaders and what it is that leaders are experiencing. [00:07:18] So until today, I've maintained a clinical psychology practice and a more performance-oriented — sometimes even professional sportsmen — but leadership-oriented practice. And I dovetailed these two worlds of clinical work.
---
## Main Conversation (07:31 – end)
[00:07:31] **David:** so now you, are mixing your coaching with [00:07:35] your psychology,
[00:07:36] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Yeah.
[00:07:37] **David:** And now you've been doing that in Singapore [00:07:40] when do you do kind of start to jump into coaching?
[00:07:43] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** You know, I, it sort [00:07:45] of, it just happened, so there I was working. Supposedly with clinical [00:07:50] populations, but it turns out people was coming to see me because their insurance would cover [00:07:55] it for performance reasons. So they either wanted hypnosis to, do you think [00:08:00] hypnosis can help me become a better goalkeeper, or I want to join the Olympic team and so somehow I [00:08:05] got this reputation, I suppose. So people at the university were coming in not for [00:08:10] psychopathology. And so I kind of go, I didn't have any ICF qualification, but was [00:08:15] retooling what I had learned as a clinician and applying it in a related but different [00:08:20] space. And I was like,
[00:08:20] **David:** Yeah.
[00:08:21] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** this, this is surely what coaching is. And
[00:08:23] **David:** Yeah.
[00:08:23] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** when I, [00:08:25] eventually became a faculty member and started teaching leadership and helping people with their leadership [00:08:30] skills, like, think I need to take it. Coaching qualification. I'm teaching this stuff.
[00:08:34] **David:** [00:08:35] Yeah.
[00:08:35] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** I did take a PCC with the ICF. But in some ways it just, it bled [00:08:40] into what was intended as a clinical practice.
[00:08:42] **David:** I think, the world of coaching takes a [00:08:45] lot from some, a, a number of different, areas, right? Like, so there's, I think [00:08:50] sometimes they take it from just philosophy and from psychology and [00:08:55] just sometimes just common sense, right? But specifically psychology, very [00:09:00] like hand in hand walk with coaching.
[00:09:01] I think, when you've been.
[00:09:03] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** don't know that, I've [00:09:05] heard many, many coaches say, oh no, we don't do psychology, as if like. [00:09:10] That's for the dribbling blathering idiots. You know, we do the good stuff and [00:09:15] I'm like, the journal articles from the coaching world like kind of just [00:09:20] taken from the clinical world and, reapplied and that's great, but the arrogance I find a bit [00:09:25] shocking.
[00:09:25] **David:** I don't know, like people are, you'll always meet people who are arrogant about what [00:09:30] they do. I think.
[00:09:30] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** That's true
[00:09:31] **David:** Like people are people, and it doesn't matter if you're in [00:09:35] sports or in a school or coach. Right. People are people. [00:09:40] I'm curious, you know, so you've been coaching for a number of years now. [00:09:45] Most of the people I've talked to, right?
[00:09:47] They have the stories of like. they remember [00:09:50] that stick in their mind for variety of reasons. The stories of lives that were [00:09:55] changed because of they worked with you and sometimes the client that you [00:10:00] selected and to work with that you probably shouldn't have.
[00:10:04] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** [00:10:05] Hmm.
[00:10:05] **David:** Do you mind sharing one of those stories with us?
[00:10:07] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Oh gosh. I mean, thing is my [00:10:10] story blend clinical with coaching. 'cause I do both so it's a bit [00:10:15] hard to give you a pure coaching story, I'll
[00:10:18] **David:** That's okay.
[00:10:18] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** This okay.
[00:10:19] **David:** Yeah.
[00:10:19] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** [00:10:20] Okay.
[00:10:20] **David:** that's fine.
[00:10:21] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Did you get the story just now? The one on the,
[00:10:23] **David:** Yeah. Yeah,
[00:10:24] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** that
[00:10:24] **David:** we did.
[00:10:24] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** [00:10:25] Okay. So I was full-time faculty leadership, and, my [00:10:30] contract was up for renewal. And so a little bit of question, do I want to keep doing this? 'cause I [00:10:35] always, like doing the applied work and I got a call from a colleague the Philippines [00:10:40] and she's like, Jonathan. Would you like a coaching contract now as full-time faculty? I only had one day a [00:10:45] week to play outside of my faculty role.
[00:10:47] **David:** mm.
[00:10:47] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** like, you know, come all the way to the Philippines from Singapore. [00:10:50] I'm like, what's this about? Why me? And she was obviously a bit annoyed, but I was like, what have I done? She's [00:10:55] like, well, it's you because you are smart. You're male and you're a bastard. I was like, [00:11:00] why are you annoyed with me?
[00:11:01] And it turns out she had tried to coach these two executives. [00:11:05] And so she asked me if I could take over. it was kind of like, I want to give it to [00:11:10] someone who okay to fly you over to do the coaching. So every two weeks or so, [00:11:15] get flown over business class to, Manila.
[00:11:17] I was treated like a king. Like [00:11:20] I,
[00:11:20] **David:** Mm.
[00:11:20] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** me at the airport and I wasn't used to that. I was just a faculty member.
[00:11:24] **David:** [00:11:25] Mm-hmm.
[00:11:25] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** It was great. And it was important in some ways because it helped me take the [00:11:30] step into becoming a coach and leaving full-time faculty. But I remember, one of the [00:11:35] clients was a gentleman who had been promoted very quickly to a senior [00:11:40] role, and he, pound his fists on the floor in complaining. About the [00:11:45] performance of his, reports and throw files. It was real old school and people were [00:11:50] leaving the company, and this was not the kind of company which was like that. It was a company with a lot of warm [00:11:55] vibes
[00:11:55] It was just this wasn't going to work, and the head of HR said, your [00:12:00] job is to try and give me two more months because he's already fired. Your job
[00:12:04] **David:** Oh.[00:12:05]
[00:12:05] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** make this painless. I have to find a replacement. And I was like, wow, [00:12:10] okay. And it was a tough engagement. Like, in the chemistry meeting it was,
[00:12:14] **David:** Hmm.
[00:12:14] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** quite [00:12:15] obnoxious.
[00:12:15] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:12:16] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** I say to this guy, why do you think I'm here? And he said, [00:12:20] so that a white man can make me greater. And I'm like, is that right? I said, well, [00:12:25] I understand it's because you've already been fired and you haven't been told. And my job is to try and [00:12:30] give them a less painful few months.
[00:12:32] But if you want, maybe we can try and make this better than [00:12:35] that. And I think he realized I was being honest and I didn't feel it was a breach of confidence.
[00:12:39] [00:12:40] Like in the circumstance, this was already a failure. And, it was a difficult engagement. And [00:12:45] in about session six, we did a guided meditation, myself, I've. Spent at this [00:12:50] point, I think about nine months in silent meditation retreat. And so bringing in some of those [00:12:55] practices into a coaching arena feels very comfortable for me.
[00:12:58] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:12:58] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** And, he [00:13:00] suddenly started to breathe very heavily his anxiety came quite high. And
[00:13:04] **David:** Mm-hmm.[00:13:05]
[00:13:05] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** a clinician, I was fine with this. If I hadn't got the clinical training, I might've been a bit concerned. And he started to have a [00:13:10] bit of panic and then burst into tears.
[00:13:12] **David:** Hmm.
[00:13:13] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** he says to me with a croaking voice, and [00:13:15] I can feel kind of tingling as I I know why I'm a bastard to all of them. And I said, why? And he [00:13:20] goes, I'm a bastard to me.
[00:13:21] **David:** Hmm.
[00:13:22] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** It was some kind of a crack as he felt [00:13:25] his own sense of of criticism towards himself and hostility towards [00:13:30] himself and awareness of how he was projecting it on others.
[00:13:32] **David:** Yeah.
[00:13:33] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** About a month and a half later. [00:13:35] His wife, his daughter, and the aunt that he and no one else liked all talked [00:13:40] about how he had changed.
[00:13:41] **David:** Hmm.
[00:13:41] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** it was one of these like, really, you know, I think only a few times in your [00:13:45] career does one, have the privilege of seeing a dramatic change?
[00:13:48] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:13:48] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** uh, this was [00:13:50] one of them. And it was really inspiring. By the end of the coaching engagement, I asked the, the head of hr, you know, [00:13:55] how was the job search for, for his replacement?
[00:13:57] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:13:58] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** said, no, we're not doing that anymore. And I kind [00:14:00] of wanted him to say, you know, well done Jonathan, but he's like, no, we decided not to do it. uh, I was like, [00:14:05] my narcissism is injured. [00:14:10] But it was, one of those like, wow, this can be [00:14:15] powerful.
[00:14:15] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:14:16] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** powerful.
[00:14:16] **David:** I am curious because, in [00:14:20] psychology, like the differences between psychology and coaching, I think there are a [00:14:25] few big ones, but I'd love for you to, could you explain like what are the primary difference [00:14:30] between psychology and coaching?
[00:14:31] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Sure. I mean, I think is a field in the way I see it [00:14:35] includes coaching. unless you're talking about skills-based coaching like. soccer. If you're talking about [00:14:40] psychological coaching, it fits within the realm of psychology.
[00:14:43] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:14:43] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** clinical psych, which is [00:14:45] one field in psychology and coaching, the line is fuzzy.
[00:14:48] This is how I see it. I have colleagues who see [00:14:50] it differently.
[00:14:50] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:14:51] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** if you're training someone to, as a coach, to [00:14:55] fight in MMA fights, so like how do you do the psychology of coaching
[00:14:59] **David:** Hmm.
[00:14:59] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** an MMA [00:15:00] fighter? It's kind of boxing. You know, that is more coaching and not really clinical, [00:15:05] but in that
[00:15:05] **David:** Yeah.
[00:15:06] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** get clinicians who are taking the tools of psychology and applying it there.
[00:15:09] So it's not [00:15:10] that it's pure coaching, but it's more coaching.
[00:15:12] But there's a whole end of the swimming pool, [00:15:15] which is not where coaches should tread, but they do. So on the high end, the performance end, [00:15:20] that's largely coaching. But if clinicians go there, I'm like, so be it. But
[00:15:23] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:15:23] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** the realm of. severe [00:15:25] pathology, anybody or moderate pathology, depression, anxiety, alcohol, [00:15:30] schizophrenia, suicidality, that the dark end of the swimming pool is where coaches should [00:15:35] not tread. In my view. They should refer.
[00:15:37] And the line between these two is at best [00:15:40] fuzzy. So
[00:15:40] **David:** Hmm.
[00:15:41] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** of the things that I am very keen on that coaches should get [00:15:45] sufficient training to know when to refer, but.
[00:15:47] **David:** Hmm.
[00:15:47] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** There are a lot of reasons not to do that. [00:15:50] Like a coach can learn within one day how to be like to be a very good [00:15:55] referrer. I would say maybe one in a hundred coaches is as knowledgeable as that, but it only [00:16:00] takes six, seven hours of training be able to identify when you should refer someone for a clinical [00:16:05] referral. there are a couple of reasons I think it doesn't happen. One is it's inconvenient to learn and the other [00:16:10] is if you learn it. Well, then you might refer your clients away and you might lose your clients. I gave a [00:16:15] keynote to the ICF, where one of the leading coaches in Singapore at the time kind of basically said, if I [00:16:20] learn this, I lose business. It shouldn't be that way because people's lives are being [00:16:25] damaged by the unwitting neglect of
[00:16:28] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:16:29] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** trained to [00:16:30] see. This is not a coaching client, or it might be a coaching client, but please, let's just [00:16:35] get a referral first to check it out.
[00:16:36] **David:** So a coach, if you are struggling [00:16:40] to build your business right, then you would be concerned about losing business. But most of the coaches [00:16:45] I've met, they're in the business of coaching, not to make money, but to help people. [00:16:50] And so I understand where he is coming from, but I haven't met a lot of coaches who would [00:16:55] defer to let me make my money even at the detriment of my client.
[00:16:58] I.
[00:16:58] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** If you put it that way [00:17:00] to them they would wince. But that, depending where you are, a lot of coaches are, keen on getting [00:17:05] each other's lunches. Like not many people can
[00:17:07] **David:** Hmm.
[00:17:07] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** on coaching. Most coaches have at [00:17:10] least one other profession.
[00:17:11] **David:** So that's an interesting, that you say that. Why do you think that is? [00:17:15] And what have you seen in the industry about it that makes it like that?
[00:17:19] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** [00:17:20] I think it's hard to make a living as a coach for most people, so if you are a trainer as [00:17:25] well, you do it in workshops or you've got another profession that all makes it all possible. You know, [00:17:30] everybody wants the big ticket client. Everybody wants to be able to charge $1,500 or, I don't [00:17:35] know, Tony Robbins, I think charges $20,000 an hour. Like everybody's heard of that. So [00:17:40] if in the reality is to land a client, I've gotta spend 15, 20 [00:17:45] hours courting them and then I'm making two, $300 an hour. it's a tough equation. I think [00:17:50] it's hard. And we are a profession sometimes of imposters because
[00:17:54] **David:** Hmm.
[00:17:54] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** [00:17:55] as I, I love my colleagues and I have colleagues who I deeply, deeply revere, somebody [00:18:00] with a nice suit and presents themselves well, and I was at a dinner some couple of years ago and [00:18:05] this young person said, I only work with C-Suite. And I'm looking at her going, I [00:18:10] don't think you left college more than a couple of years ago. And it's not that, you know, that's unreasonable, [00:18:15] but I just kind of thought, I was looking at the sort of the gray head colleagues at the table thinking [00:18:20] single one of them will work with different levels, not just C-Suite.
[00:18:23] **David:** Yeah.
[00:18:23] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** those who do work with just [00:18:25] Csuite, that's fine. But I got the sense she was, and I thought, but you know what? Her attitude, she'll [00:18:30] probably do well with that. It doesn't
[00:18:31] **David:** Hmm.
[00:18:32] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** a good coach. She might be a better coach than all the gray head [00:18:35] guys, gray head people. But, who's gonna know if I'm a good coach or a bad coach?
[00:18:39] They're gonna go on [00:18:40] reputation, but we don't have a good way of, testing
[00:18:42] **David:** Hmm.
[00:18:42] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** other, of knowing who's better. And so we [00:18:45] have a lot of
[00:18:45] **David:** Hmm.
[00:18:45] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** who think without much training, without much experience, and with a lot of good marketing, [00:18:50] do pretty well.
[00:18:51] **David:** So I like to unpack that a little bit, right? Because people, [00:18:55] like the coaches, like Tony Robbins, there are a couple of those people. They're the, [00:19:00] the rockstar superstar players, right? The Michael Jordans, the Tiger [00:19:05] Woods, but they put in a lot of time and effort, they. They built their businesses, right?
[00:19:09] [00:19:10] And they grew there to that point, not overnight, over a long [00:19:15] period of, work and effort. And I would imagine a lot of years of [00:19:20] struggle at the same time. Right? And now they have the system, the marketing, and they learn how to [00:19:25] build their businesses. And I, I think that's really what the.
[00:19:27] I'm trying to go where [00:19:30] with the show is, you know, most of the coaches I've talked to, and I was just talking to the, coach [00:19:35] just prior to this, is that most coaches who get into coaching from the [00:19:40] conversations I've had, when they get into coaching, they don't think about it as a [00:19:45] business.
[00:19:45] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Hmm.
[00:19:45] **David:** They, they get into coaching because they want to coach.
[00:19:49] [00:19:50] But most of these people are coming from corporate roles, right? And the world of [00:19:55] corporate, you have, a brand, you have systems, you have [00:20:00] teams, and so you have a whole support system. You don't have to build it [00:20:05] all from the ground up. You walk into something pre-built with systems and structure in [00:20:10] place.
[00:20:10] And most coaches, when they become a coach, they don't [00:20:15] recognize that they're starting from ground zero and they have to start building every piece of [00:20:20] that business one by one. And so that's where like the awakening, [00:20:25] like, it's hard, right? So many of the coaches I've spoken with.
[00:20:28] They'll say, I got [00:20:30] certified. I got my license. I got my [00:20:35] I-C-F-A-C-C-P-C-C, whatever. Right? I know how to coach, but then how do I get my [00:20:40] clients? And what everybody tells them is, talk to your internet, talk to your network work. Do coaching for [00:20:45] free. Find five, 10 people and coach them for free. One part is, yes, you [00:20:50] need to get the reps in, you need to practice to get good, right?
[00:20:53] Like as a clinical [00:20:55] psychologist, I assume you did some training as a student as you were getting [00:21:00] certified. Right?
[00:21:00] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Oh, 3000 hours, which is
[00:21:03] **David:** that's a lot.
[00:21:04] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** coach, [00:21:05] coach training is 60 hours of training and 40 hours perhaps of practice.
[00:21:08] It's not [00:21:10] 1% of the clinical psychologist.
[00:21:12] **David:** Yeah. So like, I totally, again, I [00:21:15] understand, why businesses tell them to do it for free,
[00:21:18] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** like,
[00:21:19] **David:** but Yeah.
[00:21:19] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** [00:21:20] honest, that method disaster. It's a
[00:21:22] **David:** Yeah.
[00:21:22] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** No, cannot, cannot be that way. Like coaching is [00:21:25] hard to get into. Like, you might be the world's greatest coach, but it doesn't mean you're gonna get the client. [00:21:30] So when I think of, of Tony Robbins, I don't think of Michael Jordan, like he's a Michael Jordan in terms of the [00:21:35] splash.
[00:21:35] He's created an incredible splash.
[00:21:37] **David:** Mm. Mm-hmm.
[00:21:38] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** coach? I, I don't know. [00:21:40] Maybe he is,
[00:21:40] **David:** Mm.
[00:21:41] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** because he's got the marketing machine, he'll get the clients
[00:21:44] You know, who [00:21:45] are the greatest rock stars at coaching? They may be people we've never heard of. 'cause they may
[00:21:49] **David:** [00:21:50] Mm.
[00:21:50] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** that splashy machine. And so. think when are saying to me, oh, I'm thinking about [00:21:55] becoming a coach, generally say, if you're going to make a career shift or you're gonna go [00:22:00] into that, keep your day job in some capacity, find a way of coaching. Let's say you are a [00:22:05] lawyer. ways of coaching other lawyers. Get that network going. Don't [00:22:10] think when you get your whatever qualification, it's anyone's going to be hunting for you. The [00:22:15] best you can do if you wanna hunt is join a coaching firm where they will feed you clients and they'll take a big [00:22:20] cut.
[00:22:20] And those jobs are not easy to get and the cut is big because those firms [00:22:25] know they are offering something great.
[00:22:27] They're getting people who are coaches are often not the [00:22:30] kinds of people who are good at marketing. so they're going, that person isn't gonna be good at [00:22:35] marketing. We are saving them. So they're gonna get a small proportion.
[00:22:38] Like when you do this, stay close [00:22:40] to your day job.
[00:22:40] don't lose the connections there. Work with that. Integrate. If you are, in a [00:22:45] bank, coaching into the bank, or whatever it may be. But to try and go [00:22:50] fresh, it's tough.
[00:22:50] **David:** I a hundred percent agree. There were two coaches I've [00:22:55] met, in the last year. They started the practices within two to the last, two to three years. [00:23:00] They have since, returned to their previous professions. Right? And it's [00:23:05] 'cause it started off strong and then it got hard.
[00:23:08] And that is because they did [00:23:10] a lot of front end effort and then they started coaching, they got busy, and then they [00:23:15] didn't continue putting the effort into the.
[00:23:16] Building of the business and then it drops off. Like so many [00:23:20] coaches, talk, I talk with them and there's this pattern, right, of up and down the feast or famine it is [00:23:25] because right, you put a lot of effort at the beginning to build the business, to get the word out to find [00:23:30] clients, you get super busy.
[00:23:31] But in that busyness, you're like, I'm doing the work, it's great. It's just [00:23:35] gonna keep going. Right? And then the contracts end, but you haven't continued the business building, [00:23:40] now there's nothing.
[00:23:40] So I was gonna ask though, is, I was curious for you, [00:23:45] right, because you've had your day job, you're talking about, you know, coaches and marketing, [00:23:50] right. How do you feel about the idea of like marketing yourself [00:23:55] calls?
[00:23:55] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Oh, I hate it. it's so not my personality. I mean, my mother, [00:24:00] one day I said to my mom, mom, raised my fees and people are paying. And [00:24:05] she's like, really? She said, because she think of me as a psychologist and psychology [00:24:10] coaching. I just put it in the same bucket.
[00:24:11] She's like,
[00:24:11] **David:** Yeah.
[00:24:12] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** I'm not sure about medicine for profit, [00:24:15] I was like, mom, don't, and that it was, it, it was charging a [00:24:20] fraction of what I'm charging now.
[00:24:21] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:24:21] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** and so this whole like feeling of like marketing myself [00:24:25] and feeling bad about it and I never really had to think about it. I, had a waiting list actually, until she [00:24:30] got sick and, and, and passed away. And since then, you know, it took quite a bit of time off I haven't been on the [00:24:35] path, I don't have a waiting list anymore.
[00:24:36] **David:** Hmm.
[00:24:36] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** months ago I started to use LinkedIn and thinking [00:24:40] LinkedIn will be a way because you know, like in terms of sales calls, if someone says to me, Hey, [00:24:45] can we talk to you about coaching?
[00:24:46] I'm like, great, I'll show up. But I've never been [00:24:50] proactive so now I'm thinking maybe I need to be proactive.
[00:24:53] **David:** Mm-hmm. Are perhaps higher than [00:24:55] is comfortable for many. Maybe
[00:24:56] Mm-hmm.
[00:24:57] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** be doing. But it's not my personality at all. [00:25:00] And, like posting on LinkedIn where I'm told by people, put a photo of yourself with your [00:25:05] article. It's really hard.
[00:25:07] **David:** And I, relate, [00:25:10] right, as an introvert, as someone who's always been in operations and systems, [00:25:15] I relate. My preferred spot in school was next to the.[00:25:20]
[00:25:20] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Yeah.
[00:25:20] **David:** Right. So the idea of building a business to do this [00:25:25] podcast was so hard, because you have to get out [00:25:30] there and be comfortable with showing up and talking and to be seen.
[00:25:34] [00:25:35] But I'll tell you a secret, the more you do it, the easier it gets.
[00:25:38] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Yeah,
[00:25:39] **David:** right. [00:25:40] And in the US there's a are you familiar, with NPR? I assume
[00:25:44] There's a [00:25:45] podcast i I love called How I Built This
[00:25:47] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Oh, I don't know it.
[00:25:48] **David:** and. The host guy [00:25:50] Ross, he wrote a book and I remember listening to him. He was doing his book tour, and somebody asked him a [00:25:55] question about, you know, what's something interesting that you learned about entrepreneurs and business [00:26:00] people?
[00:26:00] And he made a comment that stuck with me for the last few years, and he was saying [00:26:05] that a surprising number of entrepreneurs are Mormons, which is like. You [00:26:10] raise your eyebrow. Right. And he related it to this once they get to a certain age, [00:26:15] they do their, I think two years of missionary work,
[00:26:17] All of them.
[00:26:18] And so they go [00:26:20] out there and essentially get the door slammed in their face every day.
[00:26:23] And they just get [00:26:25] used to being told no,
[00:26:26] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Interesting.
[00:26:28] **David:** but. You know, you keep [00:26:30] doing it. Eventually somebody says yes,
[00:26:31] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Yeah.
[00:26:32] **David:** They get used to it and they learn. A lot of people will say [00:26:35] no, but somebody will say yes.
[00:26:36] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** I have a similar but very different story, a different [00:26:40] category. Like,
[00:26:40] **David:** Yeah.
[00:26:41] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** remember, this business leader, he says, how did you get so effective? He goes, well, there was this [00:26:45] book I read
[00:26:45] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:26:46] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** and I was like, oh, interesting. And then another, another business leader said, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:26:49] [00:26:50] It's not related to my business, but I feel very grateful to this book. or three business [00:26:55] leaders talked about this book and I'm like, read this book. The book was [00:27:00] The Game. Are you
[00:27:01] **David:** Oh,
[00:27:01] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** the Game?
[00:27:02] **David:** I've heard of it. I, I've, I haven't read it, but I'm familiar.
[00:27:04] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** book [00:27:05] on seduction. It's a book on how a guy can seduce a woman. Was like, [00:27:10] looking at this, and I said to him, I was like, does this have to relate to your [00:27:15] success? he's like, well, it kind of taught me how to approach people. [00:27:20] Learning, getting rejected from women in a bar, I guess. Or, people when you're trying to [00:27:25] evangelize. Formulas help.
[00:27:27] **David:** Yeah. But the other thing, is to [00:27:30] realize is that it's a numbers game too, right? So, you need to be [00:27:35] comfortable as a business owner, to put yourself out there to as many people as possible,
[00:27:39] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Yeah,
[00:27:39] **David:** [00:27:40] be rejected.
[00:27:41] Or even just not even seeing.
[00:27:43] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Yeah.
[00:27:43] **David:** if you do it enough, [00:27:45] there will be some percentage of that audience that will see you.
[00:27:48] But if you're not doing it at [00:27:50] all,
[00:27:50] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** No one's gonna see you.
[00:27:51] **David:** no one's gonna see you. Right? Another coach, put it this way, is like, [00:27:55] if you wanna find a wife and you say at home all the time, what are the chances you're gonna find a [00:28:00] wife? They're not gonna come up to your door and not be like, Hey, marry me. It doesn't happen.
[00:28:04] [00:28:05] And so as business owners, as coaches,
[00:28:08] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Hmm.
[00:28:08] **David:** that is part of [00:28:10] the job that you need to do is go out there
[00:28:13] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Yeah. Or
[00:28:14] **David:** and be seen.
[00:28:14] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** you [00:28:15] do it. Perhaps.
[00:28:15] **David:** Yes.
[00:28:16] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** I've
[00:28:17] **David:** Uh,
[00:28:17] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** kind of done much of the hunting, but
[00:28:19] I can see [00:28:20] it's valuable.
[00:28:20] **David:** Yeah, and I have like, I go back and forth on that. I think it's [00:28:25] very important to find the right advice, right? To get advised and consulted, get to [00:28:30] consulting on how to do it well, but again, as a business owner, like you can hire somebody to do it [00:28:35] for you, but if they go.
[00:28:36] You don't have anything to fall back on [00:28:40] anymore.
[00:28:40] So to a degree, yes,
[00:28:42] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Hmm.
[00:28:42] **David:** but you should always know like. The [00:28:45] basics of what they're doing,
[00:28:46] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Mm.
[00:28:47] **David:** that if you needed to hire somebody new [00:28:50] or had to take it on for yourself for whatever reasons, right? You can do that.
[00:28:54] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Yep.
[00:28:54] **David:** [00:28:55] But it, it's a skill.
[00:28:57] And it's hard being an entrepreneur. It's hard to be a [00:29:00] coach, right? Because you have to be good at coaching and then you have to do your. [00:29:05] Finances. You have to do your it. You have to do everything.
[00:29:08] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Yeah. Yeah. I [00:29:10] don't think it's easy to find, transfer to a pa like. know, I [00:29:15] once tried to hire a pa 'cause I, I would really benefit from someone who's good with admin, you know, [00:29:20] I'm sure there are firms which specialize in helping coaches and, maybe I should find something like that.
[00:29:24] [00:29:25] But one, do I want to trust them with the client identities Do I wanna trust is, [00:29:30] it's
[00:29:30] **David:** Yeah.
[00:29:30] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** to work out
[00:29:31] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:29:32] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** with someone in a field which has so much [00:29:35] confidentiality associated with it.
[00:29:36] But yeah, I think having a PA is probably a very good thing. [00:29:40] It's not something that I've, that I do. Um,
[00:29:42] **David:** I mean, so let's kind of segue, [00:29:45] right? Because, you could hire a PA or a, personal assistant, virtual assistant [00:29:50] or executive assistant, right?
[00:29:51] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** What,
[00:29:52] **David:** An assistant, someone to help you.
[00:29:53] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Yeah.
[00:29:53] **David:** But you know, there's [00:29:55] always ai.
[00:29:55] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Well, yeah, AI is now becoming super helpful, but actually it's been crazy helpful. [00:30:00] Unbelievably helpful.
[00:30:00] ​
[00:30:27] **David:** So it's like either you trust your, your data with, [00:30:30] some assistant or you trust your data to the machine,
[00:30:33] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Oh, that's scary.
[00:30:34] **David:** [00:30:35] Right? But either way, at what, at some point you gotta learn. You have to be able to trust. [00:30:40] And I think as well with client data, like you can have. Most [00:30:45] of the confidential stuff, secure in your side of things.
[00:30:48] We can talk about this more later, [00:30:50] but,
[00:30:50] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** love to.
[00:30:50] **David:** and then, and just have your assistant just handle scheduling, right? They don't [00:30:55] need to touch the client work.
[00:30:57] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Yeah.
[00:30:57] **David:** They just need to make sure they're scheduled. They don't need to know the [00:31:00] details, right.
[00:31:00] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Actually scheduling is something that very early on I, I use software for, [00:31:05] and I've built my own software for it because I haven't been keen on the stuff that I found. [00:31:10] And there's such a lot of good stuff out there, and I think it's great that people use it, but it's, [00:31:15] there's actually a, big hole in this whole like scheduling and billing world.
[00:31:19] And like, [00:31:20] really, there's nothing out there. And I've spent of hundred hours testing
[00:31:24] **David:** Hmm.
[00:31:24] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** [00:31:25] scheduling softwares, and in the end I just went back and I was like, okay. cause my, my old software was [00:31:30] dying. It was limping
[00:31:31] **David:** Yeah.
[00:31:31] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** like, I'm just gonna have to, I want my, the experience of my clients to feel [00:31:35] boutique.
[00:31:35] I don't want them to be
[00:31:36] **David:** Yeah.
[00:31:37] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** And so I'm just like, yeah, okay. Paying program is to [00:31:40] build a software. And fortunately ai. much more comfortable 'cause I can have [00:31:45] AI check the software for any
[00:31:47] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:31:47] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** doors or any of the things that I'm afraid of, [00:31:50] I can't do on my own because that sort of stuff, it's hard to trust anybody. You know? Like [00:31:55] someone builds you a nice piece of software, how am I gonna know if there's a backdoor into it? But [00:32:00] with AI it
[00:32:00] **David:** yeah,
[00:32:01] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** it adds a level of confidence.
[00:32:02] **David:** yeah. So as we're talking [00:32:05] about ai, right? The whole world has been changing because of ai. Good and bad. And there's a [00:32:10] lot of people who have this fear of using AI because it's the [00:32:15] scary thing. A lot of people are afraid that it's gonna take their jobs. For one, with your [00:32:20] clients, how do you see.
[00:32:21] Their interaction or what are their fears or what their [00:32:25] thoughts about AI in their world.
[00:32:27] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Oh, it's among my clients, so that's different from me. [00:32:30] It spans the gamut from fear. Like,
[00:32:33] Less and less human [00:32:35] interaction. And when we
[00:32:35] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:32:36] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** AI that's connected to our pleasure centers, we won't even have partners or [00:32:40] sex. Hearing about that kind of stuff from people who are very deep thinkers in [00:32:45] this area it has some gravitas. But I also have clients and [00:32:50] again, like including clinical clients. And I think of one lady who, had a breakup with a man with whom [00:32:55] she was just about to have a baby. Is very techie. And this person poured her [00:33:00] world
[00:33:00] **David:** Oh.
[00:33:01] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** ai, like clawed and chat GPT. And at the [00:33:05] end of a month where she spent many hours a day processing her grief and her [00:33:10] pain had such a level of insight. Into who she is and how she affects people. It [00:33:15] was incredible. Now, I'm
[00:33:16] **David:** Hmm.
[00:33:17] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** for a moment that an AI should replace a [00:33:20] human yet. One day, maybe, but right now, no. If there's a clinical, think maybe do it in [00:33:25] tandem with a clinician,
[00:33:25] But I was so deeply impressed and that was, you know, that was a few months [00:33:30] ago. and I understand that AI a few months ago is unimaginably behind from where, like, [00:33:35] we are far, far ahead now from where
[00:33:37] **David:** Yeah.
[00:33:37] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** months ago. So
[00:33:38] I I think it's, like it or [00:33:40] not bad impacts or not, there are some incredibly powerful and good [00:33:45] impacts.
[00:33:45] **David:** And how do you see that impacting the way you work with the leaders you work with? Right, [00:33:50] because.
[00:33:50] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** I'm gonna change everything I think
[00:33:51] **David:** what ways?
[00:33:52] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** I retire, a grad student with a [00:33:55] good knowledge of AI and AI kit will be as good as a veteran this field.
[00:33:59] **David:** Hmm.
[00:34:00] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** dreams of, this machine that I want, this one I want to build. So, you know, I, [00:34:05] I helped out a while ago with internet stuff and creating Yahoo mail. There's a machine I really [00:34:10] think is going to change the experience of coaching and psychotherapy.
[00:34:14] **David:** Hmm.
[00:34:14] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** [00:34:15] will help us read what we cannot retain in our head or see something
[00:34:19] **David:** Hmm.
[00:34:19] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** [00:34:20] process on the spot. Something that will measure I eye pupil dilation, something that will help us [00:34:25] see a client better than we can now.
[00:34:27] **David:** Hmm.
[00:34:28] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** blown away, like when [00:34:30] clients have said to me it's okay to transcribe. So a couple of my clients said, let me experiment with [00:34:35] this. And I'm helping a, firm, a hardware firm in the uk, a piece of hardware. To create [00:34:40] transcriptions of psychotherapy sessions, hopefully for the National Health Service. This has to be done with [00:34:45] unbelievable amounts of security and no cloud anything, and no internet
[00:34:48] **David:** Right.
[00:34:48] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Very technically [00:34:50] hard I'm a professional listener and to go, I like AI will come up with [00:34:55] eight things, eight key topics, and I come up with five and I'm like,
[00:34:58] **David:** Yeah.
[00:34:58] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** and I'm a pro. [00:35:00] It's humbling and it's used well. will
[00:35:03] **David:** yeah.
[00:35:04] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** our work.
[00:35:04] I [00:35:05] mean, I can go on about AI stories like I, I'm.
[00:35:07] **David:** Well, I would just say that, for [00:35:10] myself, I know that I am not, always 100% present in a [00:35:15] conversation. Right. We have, like, I have a smartwatch, I have my phone. I try to keep those off. But, [00:35:20] you know, I have it like, so that if my, my wife sends me a message, I'll still [00:35:25] see it because it's usually will be urgent if it's during like work hours, right?
[00:35:29] So [00:35:30] then, you know, that takes, you're distracted and so the machine is never [00:35:35] distracted. It picks up. It can listen and transcribe all that. And as you're talking [00:35:40] about this, like if you're recording the audio, not just recording, but recording the audio and video. [00:35:45] Right. You again, as you're talking about like pupil dialing?
[00:35:47] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Yeah, conceivably. This could be [00:35:50] huge.
[00:35:50] **David:** like vocal inflections. Like
[00:35:52] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Yeah.
[00:35:52] **David:** there's so much to that [00:35:55] that could be recorded and understood over time because that won't be perfect for a while. But [00:36:00] it. Can be really groundbreaking. It'll be interesting to see its impacts on [00:36:05] businesses and leadership, right? Because the way I see a lot of people use it is trying [00:36:10] to just do the work for me and let me just take the credit,
[00:36:13] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Mm-hmm.
[00:36:13] **David:** right?
[00:36:13] Not, to really think [00:36:15] about it, but just do the work for me and then so how do you use this tool,
[00:36:18] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Hmm.
[00:36:19] **David:** right? 'cause [00:36:20] AI is a tool. How do you use that tool to supercharge [00:36:25] your strengths? How do you use it to cover over your weaknesses, right? And make [00:36:30] you just a better performer, how do you, if you're already a high performer, in a business, [00:36:35] how do you use AI to become a super performer?
[00:36:37] Right?
[00:36:37] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** For the business. I don't know. It depend on [00:36:40] everybody, I imagine. But I know for my
[00:36:41] **David:** Yeah.
[00:36:41] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** what I found helpful is like few months ago [00:36:45] I put anonymized data. I have an ai, which is sequestered.
[00:36:48] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:36:49] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** worried about [00:36:50] training data all the same. I fed it, the data anonymized a client and I put it [00:36:55] into two different ais, and one AI gave me a bog standard approach, I was like, oh, that's [00:37:00] boring. The other AI gave me an approach I'd never heard of, and I contacted two friends of [00:37:05] mine who were professors and I'm like, you ever heard of this? No one had heard of it. And This was an [00:37:10] approach that is fresh off the press. Like few people have read the journal [00:37:15] articles because there are so few of them and they're so new, and it was a fantastic fit and [00:37:20] I just thought, wow, I would not have found that without ai.
[00:37:23] I don't know anybody who, it's [00:37:25] just like, so yes, I think it's gonna make a tremendous difference turbocharge our work [00:37:30] as little as one year ago in Singapore was saying, AI can't touch this [00:37:35] field ' cause it's human. like, we already know that's not true. That
[00:37:39] **David:** Yeah.
[00:37:39] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** ago.
[00:37:39] **David:** [00:37:40] It's moving at a insane rate, honestly. Every day, every week, something [00:37:45] new is coming out. But l let me try to bring this conversation back to more of the, [00:37:50] the coaching world. So you have something around 30 plus years of expertise, [00:37:55] right? Within the world of coaching and consulting [00:38:00] and psychology.
[00:38:00] Right.
[00:38:01] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Yeah.
[00:38:02] **David:** What do you see? Like and you work with, [00:38:05] okay, CEO C-suite to martial artists, right?
[00:38:08] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** And clinical populations, trauma [00:38:10] and that kind of thing. The overlap is where I see probably more than between like the straight [00:38:15] clinical, the straight coaching, and the overlap. I imagine the overlap is where I have most of my clients.
[00:38:19] **David:** So [00:38:20] here's the question though, and this is the one that my AI assistant is [00:38:25] asking, which is, what's the psychological price with CEOs and competitive martial [00:38:30] artists? What's the psychological price that high performers consistently [00:38:35] underestimate, and how do you help them recognize it before it's too late?
[00:38:38] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Oh, what is the [00:38:40] price of success?
[00:38:40] Is that what you're asking?
[00:38:42] **David:** Yeah.
[00:38:42] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Oh, I think that's a fantastic [00:38:45] question. Congratulations to Claude or whoever that was. Um, [00:38:50] but please take the credit. Um, In my experience, an enormous [00:38:55] amount of our drive for success comes from anxiety.
[00:38:58] If I think [00:39:00] I am a marginal person. I might be more inclined to become a politician, or actually it works [00:39:05] backwards. You know, when I've worked with politicians, I haven't worked with that many, their core belief is often I'm marginal from [00:39:10] mixed martial artists. When I used to work with them, many of them, like their core belief was something like, I'm [00:39:15] weak and pathetic, and you're gonna go, a lethal weapon. You are a very dangerous person. How [00:39:20] could you ever have the thought that you are weak and pathetic? For lawyers, it's often I'm [00:39:25] inadequate. You think about how much education does it take to be a lawyer for people in the helping profession? [00:39:30] Psychiatrists, psychologists, I found a disproportionate number.
[00:39:33] It's often I'm unlovable, and yet [00:39:35] it's a profession which is all about caring. And so
[00:39:37] **David:** Hmm.
[00:39:38] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** think is going on when we [00:39:40] strive for success, no matter in what domain is that we're answering the call of an [00:39:45] insecurity. So if my thing is. You know, nobody notices me. And so I go out there and I want to [00:39:50] get elected to compensate for this deeply held belief that nobody notices me [00:39:55] I'm striving so hard to get like the professorship or some academic [00:40:00] thing.
[00:40:00] 'cause I fundamentally believe I'm stupid. That when we get [00:40:05] that prize that we've worked so hard for, we get this blip pleasure. And [00:40:10] then we're back to where we were before roughly, because the
[00:40:12] **David:** Hmm.
[00:40:13] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** wound, which is this [00:40:15] insecurity, is going to be satiated by any kind of success. So
[00:40:18] **David:** Hmm.
[00:40:19] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** the MMA [00:40:20] fighter who wins a title belt or the CEO, who goes IPO, given that many of them are [00:40:25] doing so because of a sense of insecurity inside that insecurity is like a hole in a bucket. [00:40:30] You can pour into the bucket, all kinds of success. But it leaks out and leaves you still [00:40:35] wanting and feeling uncomfortable. So
[00:40:36] **David:** Hmm.
[00:40:37] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** it's the disappointment that comes with [00:40:40] success.
[00:40:40] I'm not saying there isn't lots of happiness with success and you get the millions of dollars and all the rest of it, and maybe you [00:40:45] know, you become more attractive and you can find that fabulous wife or whatever it is. But the [00:40:50] fundamental feeling inside is often dissatisfaction, particularly if you're driven by that anxiety, which [00:40:55] is the case for most people, I think.
[00:40:56] **David:** that's really interesting. So essentially what you're saying is [00:41:00] if somebody who,
[00:41:01] the thing that drives many of the successful people that you work [00:41:05] with is something that is often probably negative that they see in [00:41:10] themselves,
[00:41:10] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** It is the opposite. They're
[00:41:11] **David:** right? And so even [00:41:15] if they're able to become successful in the eyes of everybody else, [00:41:20] right, will they never be successful in their own eyes?
[00:41:22] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** That's the issue. [00:41:25] may I give an example? This was not my
[00:41:26] **David:** Hmm.
[00:41:27] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** One of my, supervisors, and I was in the [00:41:30] milieu where there were indeed a number of Nobel Prize winners.
[00:41:32] **David:** Hmm.
[00:41:33] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** explained that he was working with [00:41:35] a, a Nobel Prize winner who,
[00:41:36] Was a rather young one and had a heart [00:41:40] problem and was in hospital.
[00:41:41] **David:** Hmm.
[00:41:41] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** This Nobel Prize winners. Mother shows up and [00:41:45] said, you're just like your father. That stupid idiot. He had a heart problem at the same age, [00:41:50] and this led to a cascade of depression and self [00:41:55] hatred. And why am I so stupid and unworthy and a loser like my father? And this psychiatrist [00:42:00] was saying to me, that not remarkable? of the most extraordinary people in [00:42:05] his field today?
[00:42:06] **David:** Hmm.
[00:42:07] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** he is a loser, a stupid loser. [00:42:10] So even winning the Nobel Prize can leave you feeling empty.
[00:42:13] **David:** So, [00:42:15] because that is a pretty depressing point. How do you help people out of that? What are things that [00:42:20] people can do to live. Beyond that. What is the thing that you help [00:42:25] them through? How do you overcome that?
[00:42:26] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** I think that's kind of a covert, and there's an overt way.
[00:42:29] [00:42:30] The overt way, if they'll let you, is to be aware of what's driving you. [00:42:35] Now, many of them, they don't want to know. I just want to go IPO, I just want to kind of get [00:42:40] CEO. and so in that, those cases, I'm like. Well, let's do it. But along the way, [00:42:45] let's be aware of where the drivers are.
[00:42:47] And so it's not totally covert, but [00:42:50] I'm trying to look at what is the overall wellbeing of the person. It's not just to,
[00:42:54] **David:** Yeah.
[00:42:54] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** [00:42:55] IPO, but for those who are interested, it's like where is the hunger, the hunger is [00:43:00] in, let's say in a case like that, it would be I feel like I'm a stupid person or one of these MMA [00:43:05] gentlemen told me about how. I used to be a feminine, I remember I went to karate class and the [00:43:10] teacher used to mock me and I felt like he used to call me a silly girl, and you could feel [00:43:15] in this man, this very scary man, this very tremulous little boy who [00:43:20] felt humiliated for being told he was a silly girl, and that that was fueling [00:43:25] part of the fuel made him wanting. to defeat the insecurity [00:43:30] becoming a title belt holder. And so by knowing the pain and being aware of the [00:43:35] pain, and this is where mindfulness has changed a lot of people's lives, simply [00:43:40] aware of it and feeling it and knowing it, one, have the insight to see its power and [00:43:45] that
[00:43:45] **David:** Yeah.
[00:43:45] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** creating these false goals, these illusions, these like, mirage in the desert. Which [00:43:50] will be
[00:43:50] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:43:50] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** get there. also by feeling and knowing the pain, the drive, the [00:43:55] push from our insecurities becomes less. And
[00:43:57] It's not just the super performance like, [00:44:00] and this is just my own way of looking at humanity. This is not something I know of in a [00:44:05] textbook. we're actually evolved for all of us to carry these fundamental [00:44:10] insecurities it behooves all of us to know what they are. To see their influence in the [00:44:15] mirage as they create, and also to heal them by knowing them. And then we can do deeper work if we want [00:44:20] by understanding the
[00:44:20] **David:** Yeah.
[00:44:21] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** And that's where I bring bridge the clinical work in. I'd be happy to explain why [00:44:25] I think we've evolved to have this, if that's helpful.
[00:44:27] I,
[00:44:27] **David:** I mean, helpful to me. Yes.
[00:44:29] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** I kind of [00:44:30] think, I don't know if we arrive in the world tabular erasa, but let's say we do, I think of us as a bit like a, [00:44:35] pane of glass. Something shatter that pane of glass. We are evolved to have a [00:44:40] shatter pattern, it could
[00:44:41] **David:** Hmm.
[00:44:41] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** if you're a very privileged person, like the big crime, the big pain in your life [00:44:45] was mom was late picking you up from school by an hour and you thought you were gonna die.
[00:44:48] So you might have an [00:44:50] abandonment, fear other people and, not to mark that like the fears go deep no matter the crack [00:44:55] goes wherever it goes. For somebody else, it could be terrible abuse or neglect. You know, I feel unsafe [00:45:00] in the world. Whatever it is. We each. Like a pebble chattering, a piece of glass.
[00:45:04] There's a [00:45:05] different pattern for each of us, and we spend the rest of our lives trying to [00:45:10] make good on that pattern. For you, it might be I'm, nobody cares about me. For me, it might [00:45:15] be I'm unworthy. Like they're slightly different, but not very, that
[00:45:18] **David:** Yeah.
[00:45:19] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** to have this [00:45:20] because it pushes us to push.
[00:45:21] It's beneficial for society. If we're all hungry to [00:45:25] push the limits, to make change, it's not good for the individual. For the
[00:45:28] **David:** Yeah.
[00:45:28] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** to carry a [00:45:30] neurosis. That means I have to win. Well, you know, Michael Jordan won a lot of stuff. Congratulations to him. Did it make him [00:45:35] happy? I don't know. Maybe it did, maybe not. So,
[00:45:37] **David:** Yeah.
[00:45:37] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** why I think we're evolved to have it. And I [00:45:40] think
[00:45:40] I've maybe met six people in my life who I don't think have it, and they are extremely unusual [00:45:45] people.
[00:45:45] **David:** Jonathan, I've really enjoyed this conversation, but, we gotta kind of bring it to a close now, but, before [00:45:50] I do, I usually close with a few questions. the first one is. For you [00:45:55] as you've been building your business, what have you learned about yourself as you've built [00:46:00] your business?
[00:46:01] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** I think it's one of the great privileges in this work
[00:46:04] Is that we get to [00:46:05] learn about ourselves. So I'm with a client. And I feel a disproportionate [00:46:10] reaction. So for example, you talk just now about feeling distracted. If I notice I'm feeling [00:46:15] distracted with a client, I get to ask myself, how come is
[00:46:18] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:46:18] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** sleep enough? Or[00:46:20]
[00:46:20] **David:** Yeah.
[00:46:20] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** about this client is upsetting to me
[00:46:22] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:46:23] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** why sometimes is it not [00:46:25] upsetting to me? So a client of mine said to me how his big desire is to [00:46:30] put a baseball bat through a white man's head. And I'm like. How safe am I in this moment? [00:46:35] And yet was surprised. I didn't feel threatened. You know, what was it about me that in [00:46:40] that moment I was not afraid. But in other moments I can be reactive and annoyed [00:46:45] so it's encouraged me to, both step one, step back to observe [00:46:50] myself I've learned more to do. As well as to trust the random thoughts and intuitions in my head. [00:46:55] If my intuition is saying I'm safe, my intuition is saying, person reminds [00:47:00] me of, like the other day I said to someone, yeah, you remind me of an oily puddle. And [00:47:05] she's like, what? I'm like, like what? And you know, I was deliberately being [00:47:10] provocative, but it's like, it was a very appropriate image because this lady was, reflecting [00:47:15] everybody else's glory. But she herself was only showing a thin part of who she was. She was [00:47:20] hiding herself like an oily puddle.
[00:47:22] Like, it can reflect all kinds of nice, colorful [00:47:25] things and, and, and the tall buildings around it, but it doesn't really show its depth. and
[00:47:29] **David:** [00:47:30] Mm-hmm.
[00:47:30] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** allowing myself to come up with these images and these intuitions has been, [00:47:35] something I trust myself to do better now. Like I feel about a system that.
[00:47:39] It is in my [00:47:40] mind that is
[00:47:41] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:47:41] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** rational thought.
[00:47:42] **David:** Oily puddle. Okay.
[00:47:44] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** lady.[00:47:45]
[00:47:46] **David:** I mean, the explanation makes a lot of sense, but. They'll [00:47:50] remember you forever,
[00:47:51] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Yes. Yes. And, and deliberately so this was someone
[00:47:54] **David:** right?
[00:47:54] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** the [00:47:55] provocation. Deliberate in a way, and so by having the counterpoint,
[00:47:59] I think there was a [00:48:00] sense of delight, but also
[00:48:01] **David:** Yeah,
[00:48:02] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** client that would've been considered insulting and it wouldn't have been [00:48:05] good.
[00:48:05] **David:** So last question before we close, which is, what's one piece of [00:48:10] advice you'd give to somebody who's considering, becoming a coach?
[00:48:13] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Try not to depend [00:48:15] on it financially, at least
[00:48:17] **David:** Mm-hmm.
[00:48:17] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** with. Get really real about the financial [00:48:20] side. Try and you'll hear stories about, you know, the [00:48:25] $30,000 contract. Just get really real about that, and do this if you can for your [00:48:30] own edification and enjoyment. I think like any art, if you become [00:48:35] dependent on it for finances, it can steal the joy away.
[00:48:38] **David:** Hmm.
[00:48:38] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** of coaching as art, [00:48:40] as well as science. And if you can find a way of engaging in it. If it doesn't put pressure [00:48:45] on you financially, well inadvertently, if the finances may come, you may enjoy it [00:48:50] more.
[00:48:50] Yeah, it's not the easiest field in which to make money, much as people will tell you [00:48:55] otherwise,
[00:48:55] **David:** Dr. Jonathan Marshall, thank you so much for your time today. This has been a wonderful conversation.
[00:48:59] [00:49:00] Before we close, if anyone wants to reach out and connect with you, how could they do that?
[00:49:04] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** [00:49:05] marshall.com sg, that's, yeah,
[00:49:07] **David:** Okay.
[00:49:08] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** to be in touch. I work with people [00:49:10] internationally, online, as well as in person in Southeast Asia and
[00:49:12] **David:** Okay.
[00:49:13] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** to Europe for clients.
[00:49:14] **David:** [00:49:15] Alright, Jonathan, thank you so much. I really appreciated your time today.
[00:49:18] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Mm-hmm.
[00:49:19] **David:** Until next time.[00:49:20]
[00:49:20] **Dr Jonathan Marshall:** Cool. Take care.
[00:49:21] ​