Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The Question is a collaborative learning podcast about Design Systems. Smart people like you sign up, answer a few niche questions about design systems for each episode, and then we all get together to unpack the data we've gathered. Each week, I'll invite a new co-host to help facilitate the conversation. After the deep dive, the co-host and I record a recap of what we learned. That means, for each episode, you can listen to the recap and the full deep dive!
If you're a design system practitioner, subscribe today (https://bencallahan.com/the-question) to receive an invitation to each episode. This only works if the community joins in!
Stay in learning mode ❤️
Intro (00:04)
Hello, system thinkers. Welcome to The Question, a collaborative learning show intended to broaden your perspective on design systems. I'm your host, Ben Callahan, founder of Sparkbox and Redwoods Design System Community. This is Episode 071, where my co-host, Vitaly Friedman and I facilitate a deep dive on the topic of the criticality of design systems. If you have a moment.
Please get subscribed to the show out at bencallahan.com/thequestion This week, we asked you four questions, all considered through the lens of your single most critical consuming product. The first question was which of the following statements most accurately describes the impact to the product's end users that would result if this product failed? We gave you four choices, loss of comfort,
loss of discretionary money, loss of essential money, or loss of life.
The second question was which of the following most accurately describes the size of the engineering team building that single product? We gave you a series of ranges, one to six, seven to 20, 21 to 40, 41 to 100, or greater than 100. third question was how do you ensure your design system adequately supports the criticality and scale of this product? And the last question,
is someone in your organization doing workflow analysis with the users of this product? And if so, describe the approach. all of this as context, let's get into it.
ep071 faces raw (01:48)
Vitaly tell us sort of what you're up to in the world, what you're doing with systems and beyond at this point in your career. Yeah, would say that for the last, yeah, I would say specifically for the last nine or maybe eight to nine years.
ep071 screen raw (01:48)
Vitaly, tell us sort of what you're up to in the world, what you're doing with systems and beyond at this point in your career. Yeah, would say that for the last, yeah, I would say specifically for the last nine or maybe eight to nine years.
Host (01:48)
Vitaly, tell us sort of what you're up to in the world, what you're doing with systems and beyond at this point in your career. Yeah, would say that for the last, yeah, I would say specifically for the last nine or maybe eight to nine years.
ep071 faces raw (02:03)
I ended up in a weird world of, ⁓ I wouldn't necessarily say enterprise, but just complex systems. And what I mean is not necessarily complex design systems, but just complex systems and products. Work in everything between CPQ systems, kind of configuration of quotes and a lot of B2B as well. Insurance companies dealing with transforming, I guess, insurance forms, PDFs, journeys into something that would be more applicable online and digital.
ep071 screen raw (02:03)
I ended up in a weird world of, ⁓ I wouldn't necessarily say enterprise, but just complex systems. And what I mean is not necessarily complex design systems, but just complex systems and products. Work in everything between CPQ systems, kind of configuration of quotes and a lot of B2B as well. Insurance companies dealing with transforming, I guess, insurance forms, PDFs, journeys into something that would be more applicable online and digital.
Host (02:03)
I ended up in a weird world of, ⁓ I wouldn't necessarily say enterprise, but just complex systems. And what I mean is not necessarily complex design systems, but just complex systems and products. Work in everything between CPQ systems, kind of configuration of quotes and a lot of B2B as well. Insurance companies dealing with transforming, I guess, insurance forms, PDFs, journeys into something that would be more applicable online and digital.
ep071 faces raw (02:31)
Do now working with European Parliament for the last three three and a half years now moving from 199 website that they have into basically one Wow, and that comes of course with 25 different languages this also comes with a lot of challenges across stakeholders Different priorities different interests and you know the drill I'm sure and then along with it comes also the need to have a more systematic approach to design and that ultimately brought me to The place which actually brought us to the notion of criticality
ep071 screen raw (02:31)
Do now working with European Parliament for the last three three and a half years now moving from 199 website that they have into basically one Wow, and that comes of course with 25 different languages this also comes with a lot of challenges across stakeholders Different priorities different interests and you know the drill I'm sure and then along with it comes also the need to have a more systematic approach to design and that ultimately brought me to The place which actually brought us to the notion of criticality
Host (02:31)
Do now working with European Parliament for the last three three and a half years now moving from 199 website that they have into basically one Wow, and that comes of course with 25 different languages this also comes with a lot of challenges across stakeholders Different priorities different interests and you know the drill I'm sure and then along with it comes also the need to have a more systematic approach to design and that ultimately brought me to The place which actually brought us to the notion of criticality
ep071 faces raw (03:01)
which is I have to measure everything. So I can't just step in an organization like this and say I know what to do, I'm an expert and I'm going to clean up pixels here and I'm going to move them around so that it will be better. Because nobody really trusts me or feel like they can trust me, so I have to have a very clear before and after. So that means I have to measure the impact of what I'm producing and especially in systems when I'm working, very often, I don't know if this is kind of a feeling that many of you have as well,
ep071 screen raw (03:01)
which is I have to measure everything. So I can't just step in an organization like this and say I know what to do, I'm an expert and I'm going to clean up pixels here and I'm going to move them around so that it will be better. Because nobody really trusts me or feel like they can trust me, so I have to have a very clear before and after. So that means I have to measure the impact of what I'm producing and especially in systems when I'm working, very often, I don't know if this is kind of a feeling that many of you have as well,
Host (03:01)
which is I have to measure everything. So I can't just step in an organization like this and say I know what to do, I'm an expert and I'm going to clean up pixels here and I'm going to move them around so that it will be better. Because nobody really trusts me or feel like they can trust me. So I have to have a very clear before and after. So that means I have to measure the impact of what I'm producing. And especially in systems when I'm working, very often, I don't know if this is kind of a feeling that many of you have as well.
I'm kind of being set on the side and I'm being told, you you really cannot fail on this project. my goodness. That's always very reassuring. Right. And you're like, you really have to deliver on this project and you need to make sure that it's better once we're done with this project. And so not only do we're going to measure it, but also in terms of the impact that it has in not only on the design, but also on the organization, right. ⁓ Kind of really
ep071 faces raw (03:30)
I'm kind of being set on the side and I'm being told, you you really cannot fail on this project. my goodness. That's always very reassuring. Right. And you're like, you really have to deliver on this project and you need to make sure that it's better once we're done with this project. And so not only do we're going to measure it, but also in terms of the impact that it has in not only on the design, but also on the organization, right. ⁓ Kind of really.
ep071 screen raw (03:30)
I'm kind of being set on the side and I'm being told, you you really cannot fail on this project. my goodness. That's always very reassuring. Right. And you're like, you really have to deliver on this project and you need to make sure that it's better once we're done with this project. And so not only do we're going to measure it, but also in terms of the impact that it has in not only on the design, but also on the organization, right. ⁓ Kind of really.
ep071 faces raw (03:59)
making waves, I guess, to contribute something positive to the organization. And when I hear this, I don't even know what to respond to that. It's quite a pressure. And because everything is measured, I need to be certain that what we're doing here reaches or matches, I would say, the level of criticality and the tension that it needs or desires, I guess. And so this has been a bit stressful at times, I would say.
ep071 screen raw (03:59)
making waves, I guess, to contribute something positive to the organization. And when I hear this, I don't even know what to respond to that. It's quite a pressure. And because everything is measured, I need to be certain that what we're doing here reaches or matches, I would say, the level of criticality and the tension that it needs or desires, I guess. And so this has been a bit stressful at times, I would say.
Host (03:59)
making waves, I guess, to contribute something positive to the organization. And when I hear this, I don't even know what to respond to that. It's quite a pressure. And because everything is measured, I need to be certain that what we're doing here reaches or matches, I would say, the level of criticality and the tension that it needs or desires, I guess. And so this has been a bit stressful at times, I would say.
ep071 faces raw (04:27)
But often that's also quite exciting because it can do quite a massive change. Yeah, incredible. And I've been in similar scenarios where somebody has said to me, this is not a project where we can afford to fail. And I know the pressure that creates. ⁓ yeah, that's a fascinating introduction for our conversation. If you're not connected with Vitaly, please jump into LinkedIn and Blue Sky, get connected. know for myself as well, please connect with me.
ep071 screen raw (04:27)
But often that's also quite exciting because it can do quite a massive change. Yeah, incredible. And I've been in similar scenarios where somebody has said to me, this is not a project where we can afford to fail. And I know the pressure that creates. ⁓ yeah, that's a fascinating introduction for our conversation. If you're not connected with Vitaly, please jump into LinkedIn and Blue Sky, get connected. know for myself as well, please connect with me.
Host (04:27)
But often that's also quite exciting because it can do quite a massive change. Yeah, incredible. And I've been in similar scenarios where somebody has said to me, this is not a project where we can afford to fail. And I know the pressure that creates. So ⁓ yeah, that's a fascinating ⁓ introduction for our conversation. If you're not connected with Vitaly, please jump into LinkedIn and Blue Sky, get connected. I know for myself as well, please connect with me.
ep071 faces raw (04:55)
⁓ I love it when folks reach out and just want to chat, talk, shop. That's the kind of thing I love to do. Vitale, you and I met, I don't even remember how we met originally, but I know that you and I had coffee in Berlin a few years was just a few years ago. We met before that, way before this. for sure. But we met a few years ago. Not a bad coffee. We did have good I remember that. We did.
ep071 screen raw (04:55)
⁓ I love it when folks reach out and just want to chat, talk, shop. That's the kind of thing I love to do. Vitale, you and I met, I don't even remember how we met originally, but I know that you and I had coffee in Berlin a few years was just a few years ago. We met before that, way before this. for sure. But we met a few years ago. Not a bad coffee. We did have good coffee. I remember that. We did.
Host (04:55)
⁓ I love it when folks reach out and just want to chat, talk, shop. That's the kind of thing I love to do. Vitale, you and I met, I don't even remember how we met originally, but I know that you and I had coffee in Berlin a few years ago. was just a few years ago. We met before that, way before Yes, for sure. But we met a few years ago. Not a bad coffee. We did have good I remember that. We did.
ep071 faces raw (05:19)
We met in Berlin a few years back to talk about the possibility of collaborating on ⁓ having your organization smashing, publishing, ⁓ publish a book of mine. And so I've been working on that diligently for a while now. And so I'm excited to share that will be coming out later this year is kind of the hope. So you can see a little image of the cover that we've been working on and you can see my announcement and then also the smashing announcement here.
ep071 screen raw (05:19)
We met in Berlin a few years back to talk about the possibility of collaborating on ⁓ having your organization smashing, publishing, ⁓ publish a book of mine. And so I've been working on that diligently for a while now. And so I'm excited to share that. It'll be coming out later this year is kind of the hope. So you can see a little image of the cover that we've been working on and you can see my announcement and then also the smashing announcement here.
Host (05:19)
We met in Berlin a few years back to talk about the possibility of collaborating on ⁓ having your organization smashing, publishing, ⁓ publish a book of mine. And so I've been working on that diligently for a while now. And so I'm excited to share that. It'll be coming out later this year is kind of the hope. So you can see a little image of the cover that we've been working on and you can see my announcement and then also the smashing announcement here.
ep071 faces raw (05:44)
I'm very excited about this. It's a labor of love for sure. If any of you have worked that hard on a long form piece of writing like this, it takes a lot and it feels like you're giving birth, I would imagine in some ways. So lots of fun. Okay, let's dive into this. There's so much to unpack here. We sent this out to over a thousand design assistant practitioners. We've got 61 responses.
ep071 screen raw (05:44)
I'm very excited about this. It's a labor of love for sure. If any of you have worked that hard on a long form piece of writing like this, it takes a lot and it feels like you're giving birth, I would imagine in some ways. So lots of fun. Okay, let's dive into this. There's so much to unpack here. We sent this out to over a thousand design assistant practitioners. We've got 61 responses.
Host (05:44)
I'm very excited about this. It's a labor of love for sure. If any of you have worked that hard on a long form piece of writing like this, it takes a lot and it ⁓ feels like you're giving birth, I would imagine in some ways. So lots of fun. ⁓ Okay, let's dive into this. There's so much to unpack here. ⁓ We sent this out to over a thousand design assistant practitioners. We've got 61 responses.
ep071 faces raw (06:11)
As always, you can click this link top left in the FigJam to go look at the raw data yourself. And so that has emails and names taken out, of course, but it just has the raw answers. So please take a peek at that and let us know what you find. There were the first two questions a little bit more quantitative in nature. The first one was about the criticality of your most critical product. And you can see, I mean, overwhelmingly folks who responded categorized their most critical product in this sort of like ⁓
ep071 screen raw (06:11)
As always, you can click this link top left in the FigJam to go look at the raw data yourself. And so that has emails and names taken out, of course, but it just has the raw answers. So please take a peek at that and let us know what you find. There were the first two questions a little bit more quantitative in nature. The first one was about the criticality of your most critical product. And you can see, I mean, overwhelmingly folks who responded categorized their most critical product in this sort of like ⁓
Host (06:11)
As always, you can click this link top left in the FigJam to go look at the raw data yourself. And so that has emails and names taken out, of course, but it just has the raw answers. So please take a peek at that and let us know what you find. The first two questions a little bit more quantitative in nature. The first one was about the criticality of your most critical product. And you can see, I mean, overwhelmingly, folks who responded categorized their most critical product in this sort of like ⁓
ep071 faces raw (06:41)
third of the four levels of criticality, which is loss of essential money. so, it's overwhelming. was like 50, I think, yeah, 57 % you can see in that data. There were also some really interesting other answers. And I went ahead and just captured those in this note, if you're interested in seeing that. There were some other folks who didn't feel like these four options fit their specific scenario.
ep071 screen raw (06:41)
third of the four levels of criticality, which is loss of essential money. so, it's overwhelming. was like 50, I think, yeah, 57 % you can see in that data. There were also some really interesting other answers. And I went ahead and just captured those in this note, if you're interested in seeing that. There were some other folks who didn't feel like these four options fit their specific scenario.
Host (06:41)
third of the four levels of criticality, which is loss of essential money. so, it's overwhelming. was like 50, I think, yeah, 57 % you can see in that data. There were also some really interesting other answers. And I went ahead and just captured those in this note, if you're interested in seeing that. There were some other folks who didn't feel like these four options fit their specific scenario.
ep071 faces raw (07:08)
And so they gave us a little bit more detail, which was fascinating to see. So check those out. And then on the scale question, this was very evenly distributed, I would say. Not enough difference here for us to really indicate any or see any real pattern. So interesting that we have engineering teams of many sizes. In the original writings around this, you can see how Alastair Coburn documented the scale. And he gave each of these levels a letter.
ep071 screen raw (07:08)
And so they gave us a little bit more detail, which was fascinating to see. So check those out. And then on the scale question, this was very evenly distributed, I would say. Not enough difference here for us to really indicate any or see any real pattern. So interesting that we have engineering teams of many sizes. In the original writings around this, you can see how Alastair Coburn documented the scale. And he gave each of these levels a letter.
Host (07:08)
And so they gave us a little bit more detail, which was fascinating to see. So check those out. And then on the scale question, this was very evenly distributed, I would say. Not enough difference here for us to really indicate any or see any real pattern. So interesting that we have engineering teams of many sizes. In the original writings around this, you can see how Alastair Coburn documented the scale. And he gave each of these levels a letter.
ep071 faces raw (07:38)
and then he used numbers to indicate on the x-axis for scale, and he had these different types of organizations or approaches to product work. I took that same model and just kind of blew it out a little bit for us and put dots in to show sort of how our respondents ⁓ categorize themselves. And so you can kind of see the variety. We almost hit every square in the bingo card here, ⁓ which is kind of cool.
ep071 screen raw (07:38)
and then he used numbers to indicate on the x-axis for scale, and he had these different types of organizations or approaches to product work. I took that same model and just kind of blew it out a little bit for us and put dots in to show sort of how our respondents ⁓ categorize themselves. And so you can kind of see the variety. We almost hit every square in the bingo card here, ⁓ which is kind of cool.
Host (07:38)
and then he used numbers to indicate on the x-axis for scale, and he had these different types of organizations or approaches to product work. I took that same model and just kind blew it out a little bit for us and put dots in to show sort of how our respondents ⁓ categorize themselves. And so you can kind of see the variety. We almost hit every square in the bingo card here, which is kind of cool.
ep071 faces raw (08:03)
But you can see definitely loss of essential money is like the big one for us as a community. ⁓ Vitaly, what were you expecting to see in these answers? Was there anything in particular or? Well, I would say that what doesn't surprise me, of course, is the second one. So basically everybody is everywhere. so that just makes sense. This is just a regular distribution that we should be expecting. Look at the first one. ⁓
ep071 screen raw (08:03)
But you can see definitely loss of essential money is like the big one for us as a community. ⁓ Vitaly, what were you expecting to see in these answers? Was there anything in particular or? Well, I would say that what doesn't surprise me, of course, is the second one. So basically everybody is everywhere. so that just makes sense. This is just a regular distribution that we should be expecting. Look at the first one. ⁓
Host (08:03)
But you can see definitely loss of essential money is like the big one for us as a community. ⁓ Vitaly, what were you expecting to see in these answers? Was there anything in particular or? Well, I would say that what doesn't surprise me, of course, is the second one. So basically everybody is everywhere. so that just makes sense. This is just a regular distribution that we should be expecting. Look at the first one. ⁓
ep071 faces raw (08:30)
Interesting to see that it's about essential money, not like discretionary money, but essential money. So this is where the loss of money is becoming then really the critical issue. mean, this is not quite my world, I have to say. So in my world, it's actually also probably would be the other, because this would be the loss of reputation. This is also, and this is an important one, the loss of trust. mean, of course, I have been working on the European Parliament, but also have been working on other things too. And one of the things that we definitely want
ep071 screen raw (08:30)
Interesting to see that it's about essential money, not like discretionary money, but essential money. So this is where the loss of money is becoming then really the critical issue. mean, this is not quite my world, I have to say. So in my world, it's actually also probably would be the other, because this would be the loss of reputation. This is also, and this is an important one, the loss of trust. mean, of course, I have been working on the European Parliament, but also have been working on other things too. And one of the things that we definitely want
Host (08:30)
Interesting to see that it's about essential money, not like discretionary money, but essential money. So this is where the loss of money is becoming then really the critical issue. mean, this is not quite my world, I have to say. So in my world, it's actually also probably would be the other, because this would be the loss of reputation. This is also, and this is an important one, the loss of trust. mean, of course, I have been working on the European Parliament, but also have been working on other things too. And one of the things that we definitely want
ep071 faces raw (08:59)
to achieve with AI and this is kind of becoming of course a never-ending story for us is well how do we ensure that people are still feeling comfortable confident and feel like they can trust AI right? So loss of trust is a really big one for me ⁓ and that of course comes in a way to with a lot of things because ultimately this is just a step in the journey ultimately once you lose trust you don't use a particular feature maybe or you lose it maybe rely too much on it
ep071 screen raw (08:59)
to achieve with AI and this is kind of becoming of course a never-ending story for us is well how do we ensure that people are still feeling comfortable confident and feel like they can trust AI right? So loss of trust is a really big one for me and that of course comes in a way to with a lot of things because ultimately this is just a step in the journey ultimately once you lose trust you don't use a particular feature maybe or you lose it maybe rely too much on it
Host (08:59)
to achieve with AI and this is kind of becoming of course a never-ending story for us is well how do we ensure that people are still feeling comfortable confident and feel like they can trust AI right? So loss of trust is a really big one for me ⁓ and that of course comes in a way to with a lot of things because ultimately this is just a step in the journey ultimately once you lose trust you don't use a particular feature maybe or you lose it maybe rely too much on it
ep071 faces raw (09:29)
and then you make mistakes that maybe lead to a loss of money. So there's always this kind of some way between, but I think this is a very important step in general. But it does not, I mean, it surprises me, but I guess that this is just a proxy to a lot of other situations that people in product teams can find themselves. Yeah, ⁓ I'm sort of, ⁓ it's almost like a hobby of mine to go dig up things like this, like from our past.
ep071 screen raw (09:29)
and then you make mistakes that maybe lead to a loss of money. So there's always this kind of some way between, but I think this is a very important step in general. But it does not, I mean, it surprises me, but I guess that this is just a proxy to a lot of other situations that people in product teams can find themselves. Yeah, I'm sort of, ⁓ it's almost like a hobby of mine to go dig up things like this, like from our past.
Host (09:29)
and then you make mistakes that maybe lead to a loss of money. So there's always this kind of somewhere in between, but I think this is a very important step in general. But it does not, I mean, it surprises me, but I guess that this is just a proxy to a lot of other situations that people in product teams can find themselves. Yeah, I'm sort of, ⁓ it's almost like a hobby of mine to go dig up things like this, like from our past.
ep071 screen raw (09:58)
as digital product folks to understand how the thinking in the past has changed from how it operates today. So I love this kind of question where we look at an older way of thinking and sort of compare it now to sort of how we're actually behaving. And I would love to see a more modernized version of this, right? That includes things like loss of reputation, loss of trust, loss of essential data is another one here, loss of transparency.
ep071 faces raw (09:58)
you know, as digital product folks to understand how the thinking in the past has changed from how it operates today. So I love this kind of question where we look at ⁓ an older way of thinking and sort of compare it now to sort of how we're actually behaving. And I would love to see a more modernized version of this, right? That includes things like loss of reputation, loss of trust, loss of essential data is another one here, loss of transparency.
Host (09:58)
you know, as digital product folks to understand how the thinking in the past has changed from how it operates today. So I love this kind of question where we look at an older way of thinking and sort of compare it now to sort of how we're actually behaving. And I would love to see a more modernized version of this, right? That includes things like loss of reputation, loss of trust, loss of essential data is another one here, loss of transparency.
ep071 faces raw (10:23)
loss of future compatibility. love this, Amy, think that was for you. So like, mean, fascinating stuff. I think that we certainly, digital product landscape has evolved dramatically since this time. So it's cool to hear that you all have lots of other ideas for how this could expand. All right, folks, this is the moment where you can raise your hand and jump into the conversation. ⁓ We're gonna just start diving in. There's tons of other observations. I did a summary of
ep071 screen raw (10:23)
loss of future compatibility. love this, Amy, think that was for you. So like, mean, fascinating stuff. I think that we certainly, digital product landscape has evolved dramatically since this time. So it's cool to hear that you all have lots of other ideas for how this could expand. All right, folks, this is the moment where you can raise your hand and jump into the conversation. ⁓ We're gonna just start diving in. There's tons of other observations. I did a summary of
Host (10:23)
loss of future compatibility. love this, Amy, I think that was for you. interesting, yeah. So like, mean, fascinating stuff. And I think that we certainly, the product, digital product landscape has evolved dramatically since this time, you know? So it's cool to hear that you all have lots of other ideas for how this could expand. All right, folks, this is the moment where you can raise your hand and jump into the conversation. ⁓ We're gonna just start diving in. There's tons of other observations. I did a summary of
ep071 faces raw (10:52)
questions three and four, the open text here, pulled out some quotes, ⁓ and then looked for some patterns between the first two questions and the last two questions and found a few. ⁓ I actually thought it could be fun to start with this because there were a handful of folks who, on question four, we asked if anybody in your org is doing workflow analysis. So, Vitaly, would you mind just, that was a question that think came from our conversation about what should we ask.
ep071 screen raw (10:52)
questions three and four, the open text here, pulled out some quotes, ⁓ and then looked for some patterns between the first two questions and the last two questions and found a few. ⁓ I actually thought it could be fun to start with this because there were a handful of folks who, on question four, we asked if anybody in your org is doing workflow analysis. So, Vitaly, would you mind just, that was a question that think came from our conversation about what should we ask.
Host (10:52)
questions three and four, the open text here, pulled out some quotes, ⁓ and then looked for some patterns between the first two questions and the last two questions and found a few. ⁓ I actually thought it could be fun to start with this because there were a handful of folks who, on question four, we asked if anybody in your org is doing workflow analysis. So, Vitaly, would you mind just, that was a question that think came from our conversation about what should we ask.
ep071 faces raw (11:19)
I'd love to hear from you. What do you mean when you say that? What is workflow analysis to you? So typically, I think there are a lot of ⁓ practices and methods that have become almost outdated. They feel like they're outdated. But I think that they're not really outdated. Because I think in my world, not a single project starts without doing either task analysis or workflow analysis. Now, there is a difference between the two. The task analysis is when you're looking at the specific task that the person is performing.
ep071 screen raw (11:19)
I'd love to hear from you. What do you mean when you say that? What is workflow analysis to you? So typically, I think there are a lot of ⁓ practices and methods that have become almost outdated. They feel like they're outdated. But I think that they're not really outdated. Because I think in my world, not a single project starts without doing either task analysis or workflow analysis. Now, there is a difference between the two. The task analysis is when you're looking at the specific task that the person is performing.
Host (11:19)
I'd love to hear from you. What do you mean when you say that? What is workflow analysis to you? So typically, I think there are a lot of ⁓ practices and methods that have become almost outdated. They feel like they're outdated. But I think that they're not really outdated. Because I think in my world, not a single project starts without doing either task analysis or workflow analysis. Now, there is a difference between the two. The task analysis is when you're looking at the specific task that person is performing.
ep071 faces raw (11:46)
Now very often, like one of the first questions that I'm asking just to give you bit of context is I need to understand what people are doing in this product. Not necessarily in terms of what jobs it is hard to do, like jobs to be done, but literally thinking about what are people doing here. So I go to as many people I can find and I ask them the same question. Show me this product, show me how this works, what features are in there and so on. And ideally this would be end users who end up using the product.
ep071 screen raw (11:46)
Now very often, like one of the first questions that I'm asking just to give you bit of context is I need to understand what people are doing in this product. Not necessarily in terms of what jobs it is hard to do, like jobs to be done, but literally thinking about what are people doing here. So I go to as many people I can find and I ask them the same question. Show me this product, show me how this works, what features are in there and so on. And ideally this would be end users who end up using the product.
Host (11:46)
Now very often, like one of the first questions that I'm asking just to give you bit of context is I need to understand what people are doing in this product. Not necessarily in terms of what jobs it is hard to do, like jobs to be done, but literally thinking about what are people doing here. So I go to as many people I can find and I ask them the same question. Show me this product, show me how this works, what features are in there and so on. And ideally this would be end users who end up using the product.
but very often it's the makers of the product or the owners of the product and it's still a very useful perspective to have. And so I maybe get an overview about what we, right, usually again if it's company, what we think the product is doing. But it's important to understand what people think it's doing for them. And so often there is a distinction. And what I try to then understand by eventually really going through this list of tasks, I guess, of what people are doing,
ep071 faces raw (12:12)
but very often it's the makers of the product or the owners of the product and it's still a very useful perspective to have. And so I maybe get ⁓ an overview about what we, right, usually again if it's company, what we think the product is doing. But it's important to understand what people think it's doing for them. And so often there is a distinction. And what I try to then understand by eventually really going through this list of tasks, I guess, of what people are doing,
ep071 screen raw (12:12)
but very often it's the makers of the product or the owners of the product and it's still a very useful perspective to have. And so I maybe get ⁓ an overview about what we, right, usually again if it's company, what we think the product is doing. But it's important to understand what people think it's doing for them. And so often there is a distinction. And what I try to then understand by eventually really going through this list of tasks, I guess, of what people are doing,
ep071 faces raw (12:41)
What does it require? I kind of always try to find answers to two questions. I really jump in because I had too much coffee, maybe bad coffee today. The first question I'm asking is what do people do here? What are the tasks that they are here to do for their work, for whatever success means for them? And then the second question would be what can I, as a designer, do to help them achieve that goal better? Now that better can be faster, could be more accurate, could be more resilient.
ep071 screen raw (12:41)
What does it require? I kind of always try to find answers to two questions. I really jump in because I had too much coffee, maybe bad coffee today. The first question I'm asking is what do people do here? What are the tasks that they are here to do for their work, for whatever success means for them? And then the second question would be what can I, as a designer, do to help them achieve that goal better? Now that better can be faster, could be more accurate, could be more resilient.
Host (12:41)
What does it require? I kind of always try to find answers to two questions. I really jump in because I had too much coffee, maybe bad coffee today. The first question I'm asking is what do people do here? What are the tasks that they are here to do for their work, for whatever success means for them? And then the second question would be what can I, as a designer, do to help them achieve that goal better? Now that better can be faster, could be more accurate, could be more resilient.
ep071 faces raw (13:10)
could be in a better way or whatever, or in a more trustworthy way or something like that. So these are the questions. Now this is typically the task analysis where I get a task or a list of critical tasks that people are performing and I try to understand what are people doing here and what do they need to be successful, meaning also what can I do to help them be more successful. Now that's just taking a task and breaking it down to understand what the...
ep071 screen raw (13:10)
could be in a better way or whatever, or in a more trustworthy way or something like that. So these are the questions. Now this is typically the task analysis where I get a task or a list of critical tasks that people are performing and I try to understand what are people doing here and what do they need to be successful, meaning also what can I do to help them be more successful. Now that's just taking a task and breaking it down to understand what the...
Host (13:10)
could be in a better way or whatever, or in a more trustworthy way or something like that. So these are the questions. Now this is typically the task analysis where I get a task or a list of critical tasks that people are performing and I try to understand what are people doing here and what do they need to be successful, meaning also what can I do to help them be more successful. Now that's just taking a task and breaking it down to understand what the...
ep071 faces raw (13:38)
what the goals are, what the needs are and so on. Usually the goals are what people say they want, the needs are what they actually want to achieve. So we can talk about the semantics here as well. Now that's task, right? You take a look at task and you break it down to understand what goes in it to define the notion of success. And then there is a workflow analysis. Workflow analysis typically would involve different systems, different people, different actors, right?
ep071 screen raw (13:38)
what the goals are, what the needs are and so on. Usually the goals are what people say they want, the needs are what they actually want to achieve. So we can talk about the semantics here as well. Now that's task, right? You take a look at task and you break it down to understand what goes in it to define the notion of success. And then there is a workflow analysis. Workflow analysis typically would involve different systems, different people, different actors, right?
Host (13:38)
what the goals are, what the needs are and so on. Usually the goals are what people say they want, the needs are what they actually want to achieve. So we can talk about the semantics here as well. Now that's task, right? You take a look at task and you break it down to understand what goes in it to define the notion of success. And then there is a workflow analysis. Workflow analysis typically would involve different systems, different people, different actors, right?
ep071 faces raw (14:05)
that are involved for a particular workflow to happen. Now that workflow could contain a lot of different tasks on its own, right? But usually it's like a process and how this works inside of an organization or a company or a system, like where the data flows and how that all must work together, ⁓ collaboratively between people or between systems or between tools, right? To ensure that the desired outcome can happen, right?
ep071 screen raw (14:05)
that are involved for a particular workflow to happen. Now that workflow could contain a lot of different tasks on its own, right? But usually it's like a process and how this works inside of an organization or a company or a system, like where the data flows and how that all must work together, ⁓ collaboratively between people or between systems or between tools, right? To ensure that the desired outcome can happen, right?
Host (14:05)
that are involved for a particular workflow to happen. Now that workflow could contain a lot of different tasks on its own, right? But usually it's like a process and how this works inside of an organization or a company or a system, like where the data flows and how that all must work together, ⁓ collaboratively between people or between systems or between tools, right? To ensure that the desired outcome can happen, right?
ep071 faces raw (14:33)
So the task analysis is more like scope to, okay, one person has to complete that particular task, but then that task might be much like a very small part of a much bigger workflow that involves a lot of people. Like just to give an example, in a financial application, right, if we're looking at something like ⁓ an application that monitors stock market, like a task could be to import a portfolio, right? So somebody needs to be able to import a portfolio, right, ⁓ into that system.
ep071 screen raw (14:33)
So the task analysis is more like scope to, okay, one person has to complete that particular task, but then that task might be much like a very small part of a much bigger workflow that involves a lot of people. Like just to give an example, in a financial application, right, if we're looking at something like ⁓ an application that monitors stock market, like a task could be to import a portfolio, right? So somebody needs to be able to import a portfolio, right, ⁓ into that system.
Host (14:33)
So the task analysis is more like scope to, okay, one person has to complete that particular task, but then that task might be much like a very small part of a much bigger workflow that involves a lot of people. Like just to give an example, in a financial application, right, if we're looking at something like ⁓ an application that monitors stock market, like a task could be to import a portfolio, right? So somebody needs to be able to import a portfolio, right, into that system.
ep071 faces raw (15:01)
So that's a task. need to make sure that everything that is going in the task can be actually done well. But then the workflow analysis would be something like literally analyzing what's happening on the market much larger in scope. And so that would be very nonlinear. That's very important. I I have become quite allergic to user journey maps or customer journey maps because very often they're linear. ⁓ I would say that a lot of environments have a lot of nonlinear workflows.
ep071 screen raw (15:01)
So that's a task. need to make sure that everything that is going in the task can be actually done well. But then the workflow analysis would be something like literally analyzing what's happening on the market much larger in scope. And so that would be very nonlinear. That's very important. I I have become quite allergic to user journey maps or customer journey maps because very often they're linear. ⁓ I would say that a lot of environments have a lot of nonlinear workflows.
Host (15:01)
So that's a task. need to make sure that everything that is going in the task can be actually done well. But then the workflow analysis would be something like literally analyzing what's happening on the market much larger in scope. And so that would be very nonlinear. That's very important. I I have become quite allergic to user journey maps or customer journey maps because very often they're linear. ⁓ I would say that a lot of environments have a lot of nonlinear workflows.
ep071 faces raw (15:30)
financial sector or 3D modeling software where people are going back and forth and sideways and up and down and it's all quite messy. But I still need to understand what are these stages. These are not necessarily linear stages that they're going through, but the different distinct part of the experience that contribute to that workflow to be successful. So that's sort of the difference. Ville, you brought this up because I think in your mind,
ep071 screen raw (15:30)
financial sector or 3D modeling software where people are going back and forth and sideways and up and down and it's all quite messy. But I still need to understand what are these stages. These are not necessarily linear stages that they're going through, but the different distinct part of the experience that contribute to that workflow to be successful. So that's sort of the difference. Ville, you brought this up because I think in your mind,
Host (15:30)
financial sector or 3D modeling software where people are going back and forth and sideways and up and down and it's all quite messy. But I still need to understand what are these stages. These are not necessarily linear stages that they're going through, but the different distinct part of the experience that contribute to that workflow to be successful. So that's sort of the difference. Ville, you brought this up because I think in your mind,
ep071 faces raw (15:56)
You were making the connection. This is my assumption. You were making the connection between this kind of kind of like rigorous understanding of product needs and user needs as a part of supporting more critical product work. Is that a fair? Yes, that's right. Yeah. OK. That's that's right. So I think this question I was hoping to see or interested to see if if individuals who reported that their product was higher on the criticality scale.
ep071 screen raw (15:56)
You were making the connection. This is my assumption. You were making the connection between this kind of kind of like rigorous understanding of product needs and user needs as a part of supporting more critical product work. Is that a fair? Yes, that's right. Yeah. OK. That's that's right. So I think this question I was hoping to see or interested to see if if individuals who reported that their product was higher on the criticality scale.
Host (15:56)
You were making the connection. This is my assumption. You were making the connection between this kind of kind of like rigorous understanding of product needs and user needs as a part of supporting more critical product work. Is that a fair? Yes, that's right. Yeah. OK. That's that's right. So I think this question I was hoping to see or interested to see if if individuals who reported that their product was higher on the criticality scale.
ep071 faces raw (16:25)
had more of this in their workflows, at least in the org somewhere. And the data didn't bear that out, right? Instead, what we saw was a connection more to team size, where larger teams have this kind of thing. And actually, there's a really interesting, ⁓ yeah, this little bit right here, this workflow analysis. ⁓ It turns out that a lot of organizations don't have this stuff. But... ⁓
ep071 screen raw (16:25)
had more of this in their workflows, at least in the org somewhere. And the data didn't bear that out, right? Instead, what we saw was a connection more to team size, where larger teams have this kind of thing. And actually, there's a really interesting, ⁓ yeah, this little bit right here, this workflow analysis. ⁓ It turns out that a lot of organizations don't have this stuff. But... ⁓
Host (16:25)
had more of this in their workflows, at least in the org somewhere. And the data didn't bear that out, right? Instead, what we saw was a connection more to team size, where larger teams have this kind of thing. And actually, there's a really interesting, ⁓ yeah, this little bit right here, this workflow analysis. ⁓ It turns out that a lot of organizations don't have this stuff. But... ⁓
ep071 faces raw (16:53)
This sentence at the end kind of summarizes it. Small teams can't do it because they don't have ⁓ bandwidth. ⁓ Mid-sized teams are blocked from doing it for a lot of different reasons. You can look through the data to see that. And then large teams delegated away or lose sight of it. And this is like the system team kind of doesn't necessarily see that happening, right? So interesting to see that it was more on the size than it was on the criticality that showed up. Peter, would love to get your voice in. What's up?
ep071 screen raw (16:53)
This sentence at the end kind of summarizes it. Small teams can't do it because they don't have ⁓ bandwidth. ⁓ Mid-sized teams are blocked from doing it for a lot of different reasons. You can look through the data to see that. And then large teams delegated away or lose sight of it. And this is like the system team kind of doesn't necessarily see that happening, right? So interesting to see that it was more on the size than it was on the criticality that showed up. Peter, would love to get your voice in. What's up?
Host (16:53)
This sentence at the end kind of summarizes it. Small teams can't do it because they don't have ⁓ bandwidth. ⁓ Mid-sized teams are blocked from doing it for a lot of different reasons. You can look through the data to see that. And then large teams delegated away or lose sight of it. And this is like the system team kind of doesn't necessarily see that happening, right? So interesting to see that it was more on the size than it was on the criticality that showed up. Peter, would love to get your voice in. What's up?
ep071 faces raw (17:23)
Yeah, I actually have a complete flip of that entire assessment, where I'm a team of one right now. ⁓ But I leverage AI agents to do a lot of this work. So I have a very particular workflow in terms of executing particular ⁓ scopes of work. And
ep071 screen raw (17:23)
Yeah, I actually have a complete flip of that entire assessment, where I'm a team of one right now. ⁓ But I leverage AI agents to do a lot of this work. So I have a very particular workflow in terms of executing particular ⁓ scopes of work. And
Host (17:23)
Yeah, I actually have a complete flip of that entire assessment, where I'm a team of one right now. ⁓ But I leverage AI agents to do a lot of this work. So I have a very particular workflow in terms of executing particular ⁓ scopes of work. And
ep071 faces raw (17:46)
That workflow analysis is pivotal. And it's the only reason I've been able to kind of make as much progress as I have on the work that I have is because I'm constantly going back and saying, all right, how do we make sure that we have fewer bugs between X and Y? How do we kind of further refine the spec of things? ⁓ You know, how you basically kind of like iterate over and over and over again to the point where it's like, all right, I had one agent that's kind of working through kind of a basic spec. And then, all right, we need to expand the spec to accommodate this.
ep071 screen raw (17:46)
That workflow analysis is pivotal. And it's the only reason I've been able to kind of make as much progress as I have on the work that I have is because I'm constantly going back and saying, all right, how do we make sure that we have fewer bugs between X and Y? How do we kind of further refine the spec of things? ⁓ You know, how you basically kind of like iterate over and over and over again to the point where it's like, all right, I had one agent that's kind of working through kind of a basic spec. And then, all right, we need to expand the spec to accommodate this.
Host (17:46)
That workflow analysis is pivotal. And it's the only reason I've been able to kind of make as much progress as I have on the work that I have is because I'm constantly going back and saying, all right, how do we make sure that we have fewer bugs between X and Y? How do we kind of further refine the spec of things? ⁓ You know, how you basically kind of like iterate over and over and over again to the point where it's like, all right, I had one agent that's kind of working through kind of a basic spec. And then, all right, we need to expand the spec to accommodate this.
ep071 faces raw (18:15)
we have other agents now to kind of split the load. So all these agents need to have a say in their different kind of domain space. Peter also just to bring up kind of to build on top of that, I think you also need to think about like the context and how it's flowing. Right? So the data is available in the right amount of data and the clean data and all of that. So that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. So I would say that, you know, this practice is critical at all levels ⁓ of everything, which is maybe why
ep071 screen raw (18:15)
we have other agents now to kind of split the load. So all these agents need to have a say in their different kind of domain space. Peter, Peter also just to bring up kind of to build on top of that, I think you also need to think about like the context and how it's flowing. Right? So the data is available in the right amount of data and the clean data and all of that. So that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. So I would say that, you know, this, this, practice is, is critical at all levels ⁓ of everything, which is maybe why
Host (18:15)
we have other agents now to kind of split the load. So all these agents need to have a say in their different kind of domain space. Peter also just to bring up kind of to build on top of that, I think you also need to think about like the context and how it's flowing. Right? So the data is available in the right amount of data and the clean data and all of that. So that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. So I would say that, you know, this practice is critical at all levels ⁓ of everything, which is maybe why
ep071 faces raw (18:44)
you're seeing such a kind of, you're not getting a lot of definitive kind of correlations on things because the need is probably essential across all levels. It's just a matter of people's availability to do it. That's fair. That's fair, Peter. And I'll just make sure, I just want to make sure I also state this, that the number of folks that we get to answer means this data is not statistically significant, right? Like we're a very biased group of system thinkers and we've only got 60 answers here, right?
ep071 screen raw (18:44)
you're seeing such a kind of, you're not getting a lot of definitive kind of correlations on things because the need is probably essential across all levels. It's just a matter of people's availability to do it. That's fair. That's fair, Peter. And I'll just make sure, I just want to make sure I also state this, that the number of folks that we get to answer means this data is not statistically significant, right? Like we're a very biased group of system thinkers and we've only got 60 answers here, right?
Host (18:44)
you're seeing such a kind of, you're not getting a lot of definitive kind of correlations on things because the need is probably essential across all levels. It's just a matter of people's availability to do it. That's fair. That's fair, Peter. And I'll just make sure, I just want to make sure I also state this, that the number of folks that we get to answer means this data is not statistically significant, right? Like we're a very biased group of system thinkers and we've only got 60 answers here, right?
ep071 faces raw (19:13)
So we don't think of it as like the end all be all, like stating facts, but more as like conversation starters for this deep dive. But smart system thinkers. That's true. Thank you, Vitaly, for pointing that out. Just pointing out the important parts. Thank you. All right, folks, where do you want to take the conversation? There's lots of interesting data points in here. Tell me what you're curious about. Tell me how you differ. If I see hands, I'll make sure we get.
ep071 screen raw (19:13)
So we don't think of it as like the end all be all, like stating facts, but more as like conversation starters for this deep dive. But smart system thinkers. That's true. Thank you, Vitaly, for pointing that out. Just pointing out the important parts. Yes. Thank you. All right, folks, where do you want to take the conversation? There's lots of interesting data points in here. Tell me what you're curious about. Tell me how you differ. If I see hands, I'll make sure we get.
Host (19:13)
So we don't think of it as like the end all be all, like stating facts, but more as like conversation starters for this deep dive. But smart system thinkers. That's true. Thank you, Vitaly, for pointing that out. Just pointing out the important parts. Thank you. All right, folks, where do you want to take the conversation? There's lots of interesting data points in here. Tell me what you're curious about. Tell me how you differ. ⁓ If I see hands, I'll make sure we get.
ep071 faces raw (19:41)
We get them called, let's go. Oh, Guy, jump in, buddy. What you got? Why am I always the first? Courage. I don't know. I'm actually, it's a question for other people. I'm really curious to hear from the people who said loss of life. I would love to hear from them, first of all, about the product and how their design system works with that, because that is fascinating to me. Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah, like the guy who I'm talking to.
ep071 screen raw (19:41)
We get them called, let's go. ⁓ Guy, jump in, buddy. What you got? Why am I always the first? Courage. I don't know. I'm actually, it's a question for other people. I'm really curious to hear from the people who said loss of life. I'd love to hear from them, first of all, about the product and how their design system works with that, because that is fascinating to me. yeah, of course. Yeah, of course it's David.
Host (19:41)
We get them called, let's go. ⁓ Guy, jump in, buddy. What you got? Why am I always the first? Courage. I don't know. I'm actually, it's a question for other people. I'm really curious to hear from the people who said loss of life. I'd love to hear from them, first of all, about the product and how their design system works with that, because that is fascinating to me. yeah, of course. Yeah, of course it's David.
ep071 screen raw (20:09)
Peek-a-boo. My answer was immediate. And that was, I was thinking of it in the most extreme, right? In terms of like, if something breaks and I don't I'm just going to make something up. Let's say a style comes through wrong and it shows red when it should have shown green, you know, like who the hell knows, right? Like, cause we have, have identification systems. Now, right now we're only on like the less risky stuff, but we hope to maybe integrate to support those teams, you know, in the grand scheme, the live interfaces, like in patient rooms and stuff.
Host (20:09)
Peek-a-boo. My answer was immediately like that. And that was, I was thinking of it in the most extreme, right? In terms of like, if something breaks and I don't I'm just going to make something up. Let's say a style comes through wrong and it shows red when it should have shown green, you know, like who the hell knows, right? Like, cause we have, have identification systems. Now, right now we're only on like the less risky stuff, but we hope to maybe integrate to support those teams, you know, in the grand scheme, the live interfaces, like in patient rooms and stuff.
ep071 faces raw (20:10)
Peekaboo. My answer was immediately that. And that was I was thinking of it in the most extreme, right? In terms of like if something breaks and I'm just going to make something up. Let's say a style comes through wrong and it shows red when it should have shown green, you know, like who the hell knows, right? Like because we have we have identification systems now right now we're only on like the less risky stuff, but we hope to be able to integrate to support those teams, you know, in the grand scheme, the live interfaces like in patient rooms and stuff.
Right now we're just on the portal and the dot org sites, like the more live, literal, more traditional methods that we'd think about. But that other one becomes a big, in my head, it becomes a big risk, right? Like, I don't know if that's, that's real, you know, they have a color changes. sorry. Yeah. I'm at the Mayo clinic. ⁓ and the design system there, if that happens, like, I don't know if that's, that's a real fear, but it's one I like to architect into like, all right, what happens to prevent this kind of thing right now? may result in that severe of a situation, but like,
ep071 screen raw (20:38)
Right now we're just on the portal and the dot org sites, like the more live, literal, more traditional methods that we'd think about. But that other one becomes a big, in my head, it becomes a big risk, right? Like, I don't know if that's, that's real, you know, they have a color changes. sorry. Yeah. I'm at the Mayo clinic. ⁓ and the design system there, if that happens, like, I don't know if that's, that's a real fear, but it's one I like to architect into like, all right, what happens to prevent this kind of thing right now? may result in that severe of a situation, but like,
Host (20:38)
Right now we're just on the portal and the dot org sites, like the more live, literal, more traditional methods that we'd think about. But that other one becomes a big, in my head, it becomes a big risk, right? Like, I don't know if that's, that's real, you know, they have a color changes. sorry. Yeah. I'm at the Mayo clinic. ⁓ and the design system there, if that happens, like, I don't know if that's, that's a real fear, but it's one I like to architect into like, all right, what happens to prevent this kind of thing right now? may result in that severe of a situation, but like,
ep071 faces raw (21:07)
How do we avoid that in the first place? But I think as I catch 22 on, and this is all close on this, like, I think there's also some of these risks that I don't know we make up, right? Like, I don't think loss of life is a real risk for my design system, right? I think that's a silly large burden to put on our design system, right? But it helps us think through gaps in process, right? So I think it's an interesting relationship between like the onus of what really talking about. Like you really believe that your system has a.
ep071 screen raw (21:07)
How do we avoid that in the first place? But I think as I catch 22 on, and this is all close on this, like, I think there's also some of these risks that I don't know we make up, right? Like, I don't think loss of life is a real risk for my design system, right? I think that's a silly large burden to put on our design system, right? But it helps us think through gaps in process, right? So I think it's an interesting relationship between like the onus of what really talking about. Like you really believe that your system has a.
Host (21:07)
How do we avoid that in the first place? But I think as I catch 22 on, and this is all close on this, like, I think there's also some of these risks that I don't know we make up, right? Like, I don't think loss of life is a real risk for my design system, right? I think that's a silly large burden to put on our design system, right? But it helps us think through gaps in process, right? So I think it's an interesting relationship between like the onus of what really talking about. Like you really believe that your system has a.
ep071 faces raw (21:32)
loss of life or a loss of money or whatever, right? Or is that the onus you're using to really understand the context of the problem? Because I think that's the safer bet. The other one feels a little like we are superheroes and we control the gate. At the end of the day, that's a little weird. That's just me. Taylor, let's go a little bit deeper because I know that you have also worked on systems that were not at maybe the criticality of something like Mayo. Yeah. So what's different about your approach here because of that sort of criticality?
ep071 screen raw (21:32)
loss of life or a loss of money or whatever, right? Or is that the onus you're using to really understand the context of the problem? Because I think that's the safer bet. The other one feels a little like we are superheroes and we control the gate. At the end of the day, that's a little weird. That's just me. Taylor, let's go a little bit deeper because I know that you have also worked on systems that were not at maybe the criticality of something like Mayo. Yeah. So what's different about your approach here because of that sort of criticality?
Host (21:32)
loss of life or a loss of money or whatever, right? Or is that the onus you're using to really understand the context of the problem? Because I think that's the safer bet. The other one feels a little like we are superheroes and we control the gate. Yeah. At the end of the day, that's a little weird. That's just me. Taylor, let's go a little bit deeper because I know that you have also worked on systems that were not at maybe the criticality of something like Mayo. Yeah. So what's different about your approach here because of that sort of criticality?
ep071 faces raw (22:01)
genuinely nothing. think the difference is, the carefulness, right? think I'm, think I'm more careful and more curious. I make sure I ask extra questions. get extra people involved, right? I don't think the process changes at all. think it's more just different layers of awareness. I think it's more, Hey, you know, in a hologram, right? That startup, was like, cool, move fast, do what you need to do. Like we trust you, SME handle it, right? Tell us what happened later. They didn't have time.
ep071 screen raw (22:01)
genuinely nothing. think the difference is, the carefulness, right? think I'm, think I'm more careful and more curious. I make sure I ask extra questions. get extra people involved, right? I don't think the process changes at all. think it's more just different layers of awareness. I think it's more, Hey, you know, in a hologram, right? That startup, was like, cool, move fast, do what you need to do. Like we trust you, SME handle it, right? Tell us what happened later. They didn't have time.
Host (22:01)
genuinely nothing. think the difference is, the carefulness, right? think I'm, think I'm more careful and more curious. I make sure I ask extra questions. get extra people involved, right? I don't think the process changes at all. think it's more just different layers of awareness. I think it's more, Hey, you know, in a hologram, right? That startup, was like, cool, move fast, do what you need to do. Like we trust you, SME handle it, right? Tell us what happened later. They didn't have time.
ep071 faces raw (22:30)
Right? At Fidelity or Mayo, was like, great. We're super glad we have an SMB, but the system connects to billion things. What's the first thing that falls, you know, kind of thing. Or we've got the reverse where they're like, we don't even know that. And then I bring that point up and it's like, yeah, yeah. So there's a lot that just don't know. But to me, it's, the, don't think there's any change really. think it's more just like, you have to gather some more information initially. You have to make sure you talk to some extra people and just make sure you got people along the way you're bringing in. Like for us, like we have security folks that we now know on certain things we need to go check on for our data leak thing because Mayo is very concerned about.
ep071 screen raw (22:30)
Right? At Fidelity or Mayo, was like, great. We're super glad we have an SMB, but the system connects to billion things. What's the first thing that falls, you know, kind of thing. Or we've got the reverse where they're like, we don't even know that. And then I bring that point up and it's like, yeah, yeah. So there's a lot that just don't know. But to me, it's, the, don't think there's any change really. think it's more just like, you have to gather some more information initially. You have to make sure you talk to some extra people and just make sure you got people along the way you're bringing in. Like for us, like we have security folks that we now know on certain things we need to go check on for our data leak thing because Mayo is very concerned about.
Host (22:30)
Right? At Fidelity or Mayo, was like, great. We're super glad we have an SMB, but the system connects to billion things. What's the first thing that falls, you know, kind of thing. Or we've got the reverse where they're like, we don't even know that. And then I bring that point up and it's like, yeah, yeah. So there's a lot that just don't know. But to me, it's, the, don't think there's any change really. think it's more just like, you have to gather some more information initially. You have to make sure you talk to some extra people and just make sure you got people along the way you're bringing in. Like for us, like we have security folks that we now know on certain things we need to go check on for our data leak thing because Mayo is very concerned about.
ep071 screen raw (23:00)
You know, so now we have like certain points where we're like, okay, this is an extra step that I wouldn't normally do, but it supports the greater goal of like, are we going to lose life if we mess up a token? No, but does something cascade down the chain where that couldn't make someone miss something, but like maybe, so why not try to fix it, you know, on something important versus like a hologram. It was a billing tool. Did we give a shit? No.
Host (23:00)
You know, so now we have like certain points where we're like, okay, this is an extra step that I wouldn't normally do, but it supports the greater goal of like, are we going to lose life if we mess up a token? No, but does something cascade down the chain where that couldn't make someone miss something, but like maybe, so why not try to fix it, you know, on something important versus like a hologram. It was a billing tool. Did we give a shit? No.
ep071 faces raw (23:00)
You know, so now we have like certain points where we're like, okay, this is an extra step that I wouldn't normally do, but it supports the greater goal of like, are we going to lose life if we mess up a token? No, but does something cascade down the chain where that couldn't make someone miss something, but like maybe, so why not try to fix it, you know, on something important versus like a hologram. It was a billing tool. Did we give a shit? No.
I think also that's very interesting for you to say that Taylor because for me also like this is layering for sure that we kind of have to deal with here. So there are different layers of extra layers of protections to avoid things from happening. That's for me like a risk mitigation or risk management. But I think what I think also like sometimes and sorry Hattie and Jay said I will bring you just in a second. Just to one point I think that even if you look at something like again financial markets right and you look at the financial application and
ep071 screen raw (23:24)
I think also that's very interesting for you to say that Taylor because for me also like this is layering for sure that we kind of have to deal with here. So there are different layers of extra layers of protections to avoid things from happening. That's for me like a risk mitigation or risk management. Right. But I think what I think also like sometimes and sorry Hattie and Jay said I will bring you just in a second. Just to one point I think that even if you look at something like again financial markets right and you look at the financial application and
Host (23:24)
I think also that's very interesting for you to say that Taylor because for me also like this is layering for sure that we kind of have to deal with here. So there are different layers of extra layers of protections to avoid things from happening. That's for me like a risk mitigation or risk management. But I think what I think also like sometimes and sorry Hattie and Jay said I will bring you just in a second. Just to one point I think that even if you look at something like again financial markets right and you look at the financial application and
ep071 faces raw (23:52)
You basically communicate something with a dashboard and then on the dashboard you have charts and that chart has a poor charting type and then in communicating something in an inaccurate way people will lose money as a result of that. If they make decisions based on that alone or if you feed it into AI and then AI gives you an answer based on whatever it is that it has learned from the data that might be biased, right? Or might be skewed or might be inaccurate, might be not clean enough. And so those things really do cascade, I think.
ep071 screen raw (23:52)
You basically communicate something with a dashboard and then on the dashboard you have charts and that chart has a poor charting type and then in communicating something in an inaccurate way people will lose money as a result of that. If they make decisions based on that alone or if you feed it into AI and then AI gives you an answer based on whatever it is that it has learned from the data that might be biased, right? Or might be skewed or might be inaccurate, might be not clean enough. And so those things really do cascade, I think.
Host (23:52)
You basically communicate something with a dashboard and then on the dashboard you have charts and that chart has a poor charting type and then in communicating something in an inaccurate way people will lose money as a result of that. If they make decisions based on that alone or if you feed it into AI and then AI gives you an answer based on whatever it is that it has learned from the data that might be biased, right? Or might be skewed or might be inaccurate, might be not clean enough. And so those things really do cascade, I think.
ep071 faces raw (24:20)
And very often, I mean, if you look at the system thinking in general, we often are very, bad at estimating the broader impact of those things. I mean, probably many of you will be familiar with this book. I'm reading now this book, The Fifth Discipline. This is a book from 1990 about system thinking. And I think I first read it, I don't know, like 2015 or 16 or so. And I just didn't understand it at all.
ep071 screen raw (24:20)
And very often, I mean, if you look at the system thinking in general, we often are very, bad at estimating the broader impact of those things. I mean, probably many of you will be familiar with this book. I'm reading now this book, The Fifth Discipline. This is a book from 1990 about system thinking. And I think I first read it, I don't know, like 2015 or 16 or so. And I just didn't understand it at all.
Host (24:20)
And very often, I mean, if you look at the system thinking in general, we often are very, bad at estimating the broader impact of those things. I mean, probably many of you will be familiar with this book. I'm reading now this book, The Fifth Discipline. This is a book from 1990 about system thinking. And I think I first read it, I don't know, like 2015 or 16 or so. And I just didn't understand it at all.
ep071 faces raw (24:47)
I was like, what is this? This is, I don't get it and all that. And now, being in a slightly different environment, I think it kind of many things resonate much better. So I kind of really feel like this is the connection there as well. So that's a great point, Love it. Thanks guys. Hattie, what's up?
Host (24:47)
I was like, what is this? This is, I don't get it and all that. And now, being in a slightly different environment, I think it kind of many things resonate much better. So I kind of really feel like this is the connection there as well. So that's a great point, Love it. Thanks guys. Hattie, what's up?
ep071 screen raw (24:47)
I was like, what is this? This is, I don't get it and all that. And now, being in a slightly different environment, I think it kind of many things resonate much better. So I kind of really feel like this is the connection there as well. So that's a great point, Love it. Thanks guys. Hattie, what's up?
ep071 faces raw (25:08)
we can't hear you. no. Can you hear me now? Yes, we can. Go for it. What you got? was just going say, very similar to Taylor. Like, it's not necessarily on the system to be responsible for this type of stuff. But working on things like we have autonomous vehicles. I work at John Deere and we have to make sure that all the safety warnings like that doesn't come like, yes, the system implements what
ep071 screen raw (25:08)
we can't hear you. no. Can you hear me now? Yes, we can. Go for it. What you got? was just going say, very similar to Taylor. Like, it's not necessarily on the system to be responsible for this type of stuff. But working on things like we have autonomous vehicles. I work at John Deere and we have to make sure that all the safety warnings like that doesn't come like, yes, the system implements what
Host (25:08)
we can't hear you. no. Can you hear me now? Yes, we can. Go for it. What you got? was just going say, very similar to Taylor. Like, it's not necessarily on the system to be responsible for this type of stuff. But working on things like we have autonomous vehicles. I work at John Deere and we have to make sure that all the safety warnings like that doesn't come like, yes, the system implements what
ep071 faces raw (25:35)
The product and safety team has told us to implement when it comes to the warnings for you know, you're about to start a vehicle moving or something's happening, but we leave that up to those experts. They tell us we put it in place and then we ensure that it's Yeah, it's interesting like. I guess in my mind I'm thinking about that's great. They they give you there like an additional input to to your work, Hattie, but.
ep071 screen raw (25:35)
The product and safety team has told us to implement when it comes to the warnings for you know, you're about to start a vehicle moving or something's happening, but we leave that up to those experts. They tell us we put it in place and then we ensure that it's Yeah, it's interesting like. I guess in my mind I'm thinking about that's great. They they give you there like an additional input to to your work, Hattie, but.
Host (25:35)
The product and safety team has told us to implement when it comes to the warnings for you know, you're about to start a vehicle moving or something's happening, but we leave that up to those experts. They tell us we put it in place and then we ensure that it's Yeah, it's interesting like. I guess in my mind I'm thinking about that's great. They they give you there like an additional input to to your work, Hattie, but.
ep071 faces raw (26:04)
Do you not have additional checks and balances on the output of your work to make sure that the things you're doing do align with something like a safety team? Yeah, it all goes through review. Like that workflow analysis that's done by UX product engineering, there's like the product teams are the ones implementing everything together. So it's on them. They're ultimately responsible for getting sign off from legal and product safety. Got it. Yeah.
ep071 screen raw (26:04)
Do you not have additional checks and balances on the output of your work to make sure that the things you're doing do align with something like a safety team? Yeah, it all goes through review. Like that workflow analysis that's done by UX product engineering, there's like the product teams are the ones implementing everything together. So it's on them. They're ultimately responsible for getting sign off from legal and product safety. Got it. Yeah.
Host (26:04)
Do you not have additional checks and balances on the output of your work to make sure that the things you're doing do align with something like a safety team? Yeah, it all goes through review. Like that workflow analysis that's done by UX product engineering, there's like the product teams are the ones implementing everything together. So it's on them. They're ultimately responsible for getting sign off from legal and product safety. Got it. Yeah.
ep071 faces raw (26:34)
That makes sense, Harry, thank you. ⁓ Jesse.
ep071 screen raw (26:34)
That makes sense, Harry. Thank you. ⁓ Jesse.
Host (26:34)
That makes sense, Harry, thank you. ⁓ Jesse.
ep071 faces raw (26:41)
keep my finger on the mute button. ⁓ So I work in ⁓ federal state public benefits programs at NAVA. We leverage the US web design system, which is again, the design system is created. So our job is to deliver paid family medical leave, unemployment benefits, veterans benefits, food assistance, housing. So you have to do that in a way. It's highly accessible, trauma informed, you know, like
Host (26:41)
keep my finger on the mute button. ⁓ So I work in ⁓ federal state public benefits programs at NAVA. We leverage the US web design system, which is again, the design system is created. So our job is to deliver paid family medical leave, unemployment benefits, veterans benefits, food assistance, housing. So you have to do that in a way. It's highly accessible, trauma informed, you know, like
ep071 screen raw (26:41)
keep my finger on the mute button. ⁓ So I work in ⁓ federal state public benefits programs at NAVA. We leverage the US web design system, which is again, the design system is created. So our job is to deliver paid family medical leave, unemployment benefits, veterans benefits, food assistance, housing. So you have to do that in a way. It's highly accessible, trauma informed, you know, like
ep071 faces raw (27:09)
like mobile usable performant. I don't have an opinion about the components. A lot of those decisions were made, right? My job is just to implement them. Nothing fancy, know, less about the light, more about like concise information, humane, human voice, but not in a way that's like, you know, yeah, breaking the bank as far as like this or that. So,
ep071 screen raw (27:09)
like mobile usable performant. I don't have an opinion about the components. A lot of those decisions were made, right? My job is just to implement them. Nothing fancy, know, less about the light, more about like concise information, humane, human voice, but not in a way that's like, you know, yeah, breaking the bank as far as like this or that. So,
Host (27:09)
like mobile usable performant. I don't have an opinion about the components. A lot of those decisions were made, right? My job is just to implement them. Nothing fancy, know, less about the light, more about like concise information, humane, human voice, but not in a way that's like, you know, yeah, breaking the bank as far as like this or that. So,
ep071 faces raw (27:38)
⁓
Host (27:38)
⁓
ep071 screen raw (27:38)
⁓
ep071 faces raw (27:42)
Yeah, so I think that's a different way to approach this. I we do have to make customizations of those systems. So the veterans system uses one set of customizations, ⁓ housing, because they work for different departments. have to act as a coupler to whatever that ⁓ either state or federal department is and create a local system. But some of those core decisions have been made.
ep071 screen raw (27:42)
Yeah, so I think that's a different way to approach this. I we do have to make customizations of those systems. So the veterans system uses one set of customizations, ⁓ housing, because they work for different departments. have to act as a coupler to whatever that ⁓ either state or federal department is and create a local system. But some of those core decisions have been made.
Host (27:42)
Yeah, so I think that's a different way to approach this. I we do have to make customizations of those systems. So the veterans system uses one set of customizations, ⁓ housing, because they work for different departments. have to act as a coupler to whatever that ⁓ either state or federal department is and create a local system. But some of those core decisions have been made.
ep071 screen raw (28:10)
and get to just focus on business rules. And again, if you don't do this, somebody doesn't eat, somebody doesn't get their benefits or there's some other kind of delays. Yeah. Italy, what do you think in here? How's this sitting? Yeah, I think there is one side that at least has been quite, I would say, visible in my world. And that's the notion of legacy and the impacts of going or working with legacy. What I mean by that is that very often what we end up is a situation where
ep071 faces raw (28:10)
and get to just focus on business rules. And again, if you don't do this, somebody doesn't eat, somebody doesn't get their benefits or there's some other kind of delays. Italy, what do you think in here? How's this sitting? Yeah, I think there is one side that at least has been quite, I would say, visible in my world. And that's the notion of legacy and the impacts of going or working with legacy. What I mean by that is that very often what we end up is a situation where ⁓
Host (28:10)
and get to just focus on business rules. And again, if you don't do this, somebody doesn't eat, somebody doesn't get their benefits or there's some other kind of delays. Italy, what do you think in here? How's this sitting? Yeah, I think there is one side that at least has been quite, I would say, visible in my world. And that's the notion of legacy and the impacts of going or working with legacy. What I mean by that is that very often what we end up is a situation where ⁓
ep071 faces raw (28:40)
the more you connect yourself with the legacy system that's been around for a long time. And that legacy can be fragile, be outdated, can be slow, can be all those things, right? That creates this point of failure that can really break the whole experience despite everything that we do around. I mean, if you look into like how those things must be cooperating and working together, I've been struggling to find a way of how to...
ep071 screen raw (28:40)
the more you connect yourself with the legacy system that's been around for a long time. And that legacy can be fragile, be outdated, can be slow, can be all those things, right? That creates this point of failure that can really break the whole experience despite everything that we do around. I mean, if you look into like how those things must be cooperating and working together, I've been struggling to find a way of how to...
Host (28:40)
the more you connect yourself with the legacy system that's been around for a long time. And that legacy can be fragile, be outdated, can be slow, can be all those things, right? That creates this point of failure that can really break the whole experience despite everything that we do around. I mean, if you look into like how those things must be cooperating and working together, I've been struggling to find a way of how to...
ep071 faces raw (29:07)
Establish certain ways of working I guess to integrate legacy in some meaningful way in a beautifully elegantly designed design system That has all the right whistles and bells so that seems like this fragile point that can really break this experience and to me this actually Heavily increases the level of criticality of that system not necessarily design system, but of that product that we're designing right so I really was struggling to find any way to
ep071 screen raw (29:07)
Establish certain ways of working I guess to integrate legacy in some meaningful way in a beautifully elegantly designed design system that Has all the right whistles and bells so that seems like this fragile point that can really break this experience and to me this actually Heavily increases the level of criticality of that system not necessarily design system, but of that product that we're designing right so I really was struggling to find any way to
Host (29:07)
Establish certain ways of working I guess to integrate legacy in some meaningful way in a beautifully elegantly designed design system That has all the right whistles and bells so that seems like this fragile point that can really break this experience and to me this actually Heavily increases the level of criticality of that system not necessarily design system, but of that product that we're designing right? so I really was struggling to find any way to
ep071 screen raw (29:36)
bring that component, that consideration, because usually you cannot even touch on legacy. You need to be very careful with legacy and all of that, but it needs to work within the beautifully orchestrated world around it. And that creates an enormous problem also, because often the things that live in legacy are very different from what is living outside of legacy. Right? So you kind of go through this really strange step and that breaks the experience at times. So I'm wondering if anybody had a similar experience on that, but that for me is also another level.
Host (29:36)
bring that component, that consideration, because usually you cannot even touch on legacy. You need to be very careful with legacy and all of that, but it needs to work within the beautifully orchestrated world around it. And that creates an enormous problem also, because often the things that live in legacy are very different from what is living outside of legacy. Right? So you kind of go through this really strange step and that breaks the experience at times. So I'm wondering if anybody had a similar experience on that, but that for me is also another level.
ep071 faces raw (29:36)
bring that component, that consideration, because usually you cannot even touch on legacy. You need to be very careful with legacy and all of that, but it needs to work within the beautifully orchestrated world around it. And that creates an enormous problem also, because often the things that live in legacy are very different from what is living outside of legacy. Right? So you kind of go through this really strange step and that breaks the experience at times. So I'm wondering if anybody had a similar experience on that, but that for me is also another level.
Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. Taylor, thoughts on that? Yeah, I want to push on that horde. I don't think we talk about the legacy thing enough, right? think you're right. It defines so much of what we're capable of doing in a certain place and then becomes the thing that makes it look like that is what the system is capable of. And then that thwarts the views of leadership and all that sort of stuff.
ep071 screen raw (30:06)
Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. Taylor, thoughts on that? Yeah, I want to push on that horde. I don't think we talk about the legacy thing enough, right? think you're right. It defines so much of what we're capable of doing in a certain place and then becomes the thing that makes it look like that is what the system is capable of. And then that thwarts the views of leadership and all that sort of stuff.
Host (30:06)
Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. Taylor, thoughts on that? Yeah, I want to push on that hoard. I don't think we talk about the legacy thing enough, right? think you're right. It defines so much of what we're capable of doing in a certain place and then becomes the thing that makes it look like that is what the system is capable of. And then that thwarts the views of leadership and all that sort of stuff.
ep071 faces raw (30:31)
I think this layer is a lot larger. It's like an iceberg, right? Like we talk about it and we know it's under the water, but we never really know until you start poking at things or you start opening the door, you start going, which product do we get? then it's like, you don't clock knock knock on the door. can just break apart immediately. Absolutely. You never know. it's we have to ask about, right? Because it's like such a lynch point to your point on like the success of what we're trying to do next. Right. So I think it's a huge layer that often goes like
ep071 screen raw (30:31)
I think this layer is a lot larger. It's like an iceberg, right? Like we talk about it and we know it's under the water, but we never really know until you start poking at things or you start opening the door, you start going, which product do we get? then it's like, you don't clock knock knock on the door. can just break apart immediately. Absolutely. You never know. it's the thing we have to ask about, right? Because it's like such a lynch point to your point on like the success of what we're trying to do next. Right. So I think it's a huge layer that often goes like
Host (30:31)
I think this layer is a lot larger. It's like an iceberg, right? Like we talk about it and we know it's under the water, but we never really know until you start poking at things or you start opening the door, you start going, which product do we get? then it's like, you don't clock knock knock on the door. can just break apart immediately. Absolutely. You never know. it's the thing we have to ask about, right? Because it's like such a, a lynch point to your, to your point on like the success of what we're trying to do next. Right? So I think it's a huge layer that often goes like,
ep071 faces raw (31:01)
Un, un, not unrecognized. isn't given enough juice because I think it's one of those things. It's the same thing with like design debt and tech debt. Everyone wants the fancy new thing and that's great. But sometimes we have to fix the really hard old beat up thing that like is really blocking us, but it takes too much time and effort. ⁓ So like, think this is just, it's another form of debt that we are allowing to continue in our profession. So to speak on like, Hey, we need to handle the old thing, the, the, the, you know, the broker thing we're creating more debt by adding more layers to this, you know, anyway.
ep071 screen raw (31:01)
Un, un, not unrecognized. It isn't given enough juice because I think it's one of those things. It's the same thing with like design debt and tech debt. Everyone wants the fancy new thing and that's great. But sometimes we have to fix the really hard old beat up thing that like is really blocking us, but it takes too much time and effort. So like, think this is just, it's another form of debt that we are allowing to continue in our profession. So to speak on like, Hey, we need to handle the old thing, the, the, the, you know, the broker thing we're creating more debt by adding more layers to this, you know, anyway.
Host (31:01)
Un, un, not unrecognized. isn't given enough juice because I think it's one of those things. It's the same thing with like design debt and tech debt. Everyone wants the fancy new thing and that's great. But sometimes we have to fix the really hard old beat up thing that like is really blocking us, but it takes too much time and effort. So like, think this is just, it's another form of debt that we are allowing to continue in our profession. So to speak on like, Hey, we need to handle the old thing, the, the, the, you know, the broker thing we're creating more debt by adding more layers to this, you know, anyway.
ep071 faces raw (31:30)
That's where my head is on that. And your legacy system thing triggered. Like, I don't think we talk about that enough at all. Like, because there's so many different tools involved. It's code stacks, products, you know. Yeah, for real. Kele, jump in. Yeah, apologies for being camera off. I've been fighting a cold, so we're going voice only today. But yeah, I just want to echo very much this idea of like legacy and tech debt and what a
ep071 screen raw (31:30)
That's where my head is on that. And your legacy system thing triggered. Like, I don't think we talk about that enough at all. Like, because there's so many different tools involved. It's code stacks, products, you know. Yeah, for real. Kele, jump in. Yeah, apologies for being camera off. I've been fighting a cold, so we're going voice only today. But yeah, I just want to echo very much this idea of like legacy and tech debt and what a
Host (31:30)
That's where my head is on that. And your legacy system thing triggered. Like, I don't think we talk about that enough at all. Like, because there's so many different tools involved. It's code stacks, products, you know. Yeah, for real. Kele jump in. Yeah, apologies for being camera off. I've been fighting a cold, so we're going voice only today. But yeah, I just want to echo very much this idea of like legacy and tech debt and what a
ep071 faces raw (31:58)
interesting challenge that is, think, especially right now with all of the AI constant chatter happening. ⁓ I'm coming mostly from really pretty large enterprise SaaS environments. ⁓ A lot of times that have a product or multiple products in flight in big like financial or energy sector systems. And not only do they want to now integrate a design system into this existing chaos of multiple products, but they also have
ep071 screen raw (31:58)
interesting challenge that is, think, especially right now with all of the AI constant chatter happening. ⁓ I'm coming mostly from really pretty large enterprise SaaS environments. ⁓ A lot of times that have a product or multiple products in flight in big like financial or energy sector systems. And not only do they want to now integrate a design system into this existing chaos of multiple products, but they also have
Host (31:58)
interesting challenge that is, think, especially right now with all of the AI constant chatter happening. ⁓ I'm coming mostly from really pretty large enterprise SaaS environments. ⁓ A lot of times that have a product or multiple products in flight in big like financial or energy sector systems. And not only do they want to now integrate a design system into this existing chaos of multiple products, but they also have
ep071 faces raw (32:27)
all of this existing tech debt or limitations, but also they've heard about AI tools, which are cool. So can we just like plug those in real quick and make everything automated, but also not change our tech stack or interrupt any existing features or workflows. So it's really, it's a really interesting tug of war to figure out where you can start to.
ep071 screen raw (32:27)
all of this existing tech debt or limitations, but also they've heard about AI tools, which are cool. So can we just like plug those in real quick and make everything automated, but also not change our tech stack or interrupt any existing features or workflows. So it's really, it's a really interesting tug of war to figure out where you can start to.
Host (32:27)
all of this existing tech debt or limitations, but also they've heard about AI tools, which are cool. So can we just like plug those in real quick and make everything automated, but also not change our tech stack or interrupt any existing features or workflows. So it's really, it's a really interesting tug of war to figure out where you can start to.
ep071 faces raw (32:49)
make some ⁓ inroads in updating things and finding the places where you can start to standardize or make shared tools or introduce automations without telling everyone you're just like, well, just don't ship anything for a little while while we figure this out. Cause that's not an option. Nobody wants to hear that. Yeah. Right. It's just not even on the table. So I think that's, that's a really interesting intersection to live in right now where I've had some conversations about
ep071 screen raw (32:49)
make some ⁓ inroads in updating things and finding the places where you can start to standardize or make shared tools or introduce automations without telling everyone you're just like, well, just don't ship anything for a little while while we figure this out. Cause that's not an option. Nobody wants to hear that. Yeah. Right. It's just not even on the table. So I think that's, that's a really interesting intersection to live in right now where I've had some conversations about
Host (32:49)
make some ⁓ inroads in updating things and finding the places where you can start to standardize or make shared tools or introduce automations without telling everyone you're just like, well, just don't ship anything for a little while while we figure this out. Cause that's not an option. Nobody wants to hear that. Yeah. Right. It's just not even on the table. So I think that's, that's a really interesting intersection to live in right now where I've had some conversations about
ep071 faces raw (33:17)
Well, that's cool. I think it's neat that you want to start using some of these tools, but here's what it would look like for us to actually do that in practice and level setting what that would take with leaders who have just seen as Sarah just said, the magic wand of like, you know, or the I dream of Jeannie, like wiggle your nose and puff the agents just do it all on their own. ⁓ But getting to that point when you're not starting at zero is much more complicated. Kele, say a little bit more about
ep071 screen raw (33:17)
Well, that's cool. I think it's neat that you want to start using some of these tools, but here's what it would look like for us to actually do that in practice and level setting what that would take with leaders who have just seen as Sarah just said, the magic wand of like, you know, or the I dream of Jeannie, like wiggle your nose and puff the agents just do it all on their own. ⁓ But getting to that point when you're not starting at zero is much more complicated. Kele, say a little bit more about
Host (33:17)
Well, that's cool. I think it's neat that you want to start using some of these tools, but here's what it would look like for us to actually do that in practice and level setting what that would take with leaders who have just seen as Sarah just said, the magic wand of like, you know, or the I dream of Jeannie, like wiggle your nose and puff the agents just do it all on their own. ⁓ But getting to that point when you're not starting at zero is much more complicated. Kele, say a little bit more about
ep071 faces raw (33:46)
how you're ⁓ responsibly pushing back against those sort of magic wand statements. Yeah, I think a lot of times leaders are just hearing this will save you money and this will make it fast. And I think we all know that's like yes, maybe, but also yes and. ⁓ There's, think trying to shoehorn
ep071 screen raw (33:46)
how you're ⁓ responsibly pushing back against those sort of magic wand statements. Yeah, I think a lot of times leaders are just hearing this will save you money and this will make it fast. And I think we all know that's like yes, maybe, but also yes and. ⁓ There's, think trying to shoehorn
Host (33:46)
how you're ⁓ responsibly pushing back against those sort of magic wand statements. Yeah, I think a lot of times leaders are just hearing this will save you money and this will make it fast. And I think we all know that's like yes, maybe, but also yes and. ⁓ There's, think trying to shoehorn
ep071 faces raw (34:15)
any tool, AI is the current buzzword, but any new tool, any new process into a system just because other people are, is not always the right answer. And so I think I'm a person who likes to ask a lot of questions, maybe too many questions for some people, about like, what do we think we're going to get out of this? And like, where is this going to actually improve our workflow or the more importantly, probably the end user experience?
ep071 screen raw (34:15)
any tool, AI is the current buzzword, but any new tool, any new process into a system just because other people are, is not always the right answer. And so I think I'm a person who likes to ask a lot of questions, maybe too many questions for some people, about like, what do we think we're going to get out of this? And like, where is this going to actually improve our workflow or the more importantly, probably the end user experience?
Host (34:15)
any tool, AI is the current buzzword, but any new tool, any new process into a system just because other people are, is not always the right answer. And so I think I'm a person who likes to ask a lot of questions, maybe too many questions for some people, about like, what do we think we're going to get out of this? And like, where is this going to actually improve our workflow or the more importantly, probably the end user experience?
ep071 faces raw (34:42)
and trying to make really smart decisions about like, okay, cool, let's maybe experiment with this tool on the side and see what it's like instead of let's try to run full speed into plugging this into a product and just trying to show leaders like, hey, here's a cool thing we can do and this is realistic and this is what the results look like. And maybe it makes the, just as an example, maybe this tool makes the brainstorming process faster, but it doesn't actually give us the level of polish that you've maybe been
ep071 screen raw (34:42)
and trying to make really smart decisions about like, okay, cool, let's maybe experiment with this tool on the side and see what it's like instead of let's try to run full speed into plugging this into a product and just trying to show leaders like, hey, here's a cool thing we can do and this is realistic and this is what the results look like. And maybe it makes the, just as an example, maybe this tool makes the brainstorming process faster, but it doesn't actually give us the level of polish that you've maybe been
Host (34:42)
and trying to make really smart decisions about like, okay, cool, let's maybe experiment with this tool on the side and see what it's like instead of let's try to run full speed into plugging this into a product and just trying to show leaders like, hey, here's a cool thing we can do and this is realistic and this is what the results look like. And maybe it makes the, just as an example, maybe this tool makes the brainstorming process faster, but it doesn't actually give us the level of polish that you've maybe been
ep071 faces raw (35:12)
brought to expect. And so that will save us time here, but it will also mean that we have to involve these steps over here that maybe you didn't think about yet. And just trying to get really realistic with people about what the tools are currently capable of. And like I said, the amount of effort that it might take to train a team on those tools and actually get them up and running within the confines of the rest of the system. Yeah. It's so hard when the tools are changing so fast. what is
ep071 screen raw (35:12)
brought to expect. And so that will save us time here, but it will also mean that we have to involve these steps over here that maybe you didn't think about yet. And just trying to get really realistic with people about what the tools are currently capable of. And like I said, the amount of effort that it might take to train a team on those tools and actually get them up and running within the confines of the rest of the system. Yeah. It's so hard when the tools are changing so fast. what is
Host (35:12)
brought to expect. And so that will save us time here, but it will also mean that we have to involve these steps over here that maybe you didn't think about yet. And just trying to get really realistic with people about what the tools are currently capable of. And like I said, the amount of effort that it might take to train a team on those tools and actually get them up and running within the confines of the rest of the system. Yeah. It's so hard when the tools are changing so fast. what is
ep071 faces raw (35:42)
what is possible with those tools is changing just as fast. yeah. ⁓ Greg, jump in. Yeah, I'm going to pull on this thread a little bit more too, because it, and I agree with these two comments, Sarah and Guy put in the chat here. Like, I think there's a lot of opportunity to use some of these new tools to help.
ep071 screen raw (35:42)
what is possible with those tools is changing just as fast. yeah. ⁓ Greg, jump in. Yeah, I'm going to pull on this thread a little bit more too, because it, and I agree with these two comments, Sarah and Guy put in the chat here. Like, I think there's a lot of opportunity to use some of these new tools to help.
Host (35:42)
what is possible with those tools is changing just as fast. yeah. ⁓ Greg, jump in. Yeah, I'm going to pull on this thread a little bit more too, because it, and I agree with ⁓ these two comments, Sarah and Guy put in the chat here. Like, I think there's a lot of opportunity to use some of these new tools to help.
ep071 faces raw (36:07)
with if the goal is to say you've got legacy stuff and you need to update accessibility and the best way to do that is use the design system. Like there's a lot of opportunity to be able to do that in a little more, I'll say automated, but also like, cause AI and automation are often confused and sometimes, you know, overlap and all those kinds of things. And you know, that the,
ep071 screen raw (36:07)
with if the goal is to say you've got legacy stuff and you need to update accessibility and the best way to do that is use the design system. Like there's a lot of opportunity to be able to do that in a little more, I'll say automated, but also like, cause AI and automation are often confused and sometimes, you know, overlap and all those kinds of things. And you know, that the,
Host (36:07)
with if the goal is to say you've got legacy stuff and you need to update accessibility and the best way to do that is use the design system. Like there's a lot of opportunity to be able to do that in a little more, I'll say automated, but also like, cause AI and automation are often confused and sometimes, you know, overlap and all those kinds of things. And you know, that the,
ep071 faces raw (36:35)
the automation part of it, you could use AI to build an automation tool to help you do the things. the AI is going to use some automation in concert with what it's doing to do some stuff. But the idea of migration stuff feels like using AI tooling will allow people to do those things faster than they were able to before and maybe deeper and better.
ep071 screen raw (36:35)
the automation part of it, you could use AI to build an automation tool to help you do the things. the AI is going to use some automation in concert with what it's doing to do some stuff. But the idea of migration stuff feels like using AI tooling will allow people to do those things faster than they were able to before and maybe deeper and better.
Host (36:35)
the automation part of it, you could use AI to build an automation tool to help you do the things. the AI is going to use some automation in concert with what it's doing to do some stuff. But the idea of migration stuff feels like using AI tooling will allow people to do those things faster than they were able to before and maybe deeper and better.
ep071 faces raw (37:03)
which is exciting, again, I definitely agree with don't pick a project that's critical and has all the same.
ep071 screen raw (37:03)
which is exciting, again, I definitely agree with don't pick a project that's critical and has all the same.
Host (37:03)
which is exciting, again, I definitely agree with don't pick a project that's critical and has all the same.
ep071 faces raw (37:17)
⁓ risk and real world ⁓ timelines and everything that your actual current workload is expected to adhere against because that sounds like a really risky thing to do, but a lot of teams, that's how they're doing things. They're just like, well, we're just gonna integrate stuff in and then they don't know how any of the things that they're gonna use or how they work and it's the first time they're trying to do it.
ep071 screen raw (37:17)
⁓ risk and real world ⁓ timelines and everything that your actual current workload is expected to adhere against because that sounds like a really risky thing to do, but a lot of teams, that's how they're doing things. They're just like, well, we're just gonna integrate stuff in and then they don't know how any of the things that they're gonna use or how they work and it's the first time they're trying to do it.
Host (37:17)
⁓ risk and real world ⁓ timelines and everything that your actual current workload is expected to adhere against because that sounds like a really risky thing to do, but a lot of teams, that's how they're doing things. They're just like, well, we're just gonna integrate stuff in and then they don't know how any of the things that they're gonna use or how they work and it's the first time they're trying to do it.
ep071 faces raw (37:45)
they have timeline expectations that are unrealistic. in the case of my organization, like we have built some tools to integrate into some of these workflows, but the expectations around those tools are ⁓ deviate from the reality of what the tools can do. Cause we haven't spent the time to temper those expectations. And so people are just like picking it up and expecting it to be magic. And then
ep071 screen raw (37:45)
they have timeline expectations that are unrealistic. in the case of my organization, like we have built some tools to integrate into some of these workflows, but the expectations around those tools are ⁓ deviate from the reality of what the tools can do. Cause we haven't spent the time to temper those expectations. And so people are just like picking it up and expecting it to be magic. And then
Host (37:45)
they have timeline expectations that are unrealistic. in the case of my organization, like we have built some tools to integrate into some of these workflows, but the expectations around those tools are ⁓ deviate from the reality of what the tools can do. Cause we haven't spent the time to temper those expectations. And so people are just like picking it up and expecting it to be magic. And then
ep071 faces raw (38:12)
When it's not magic, they're like, hey, what's wrong with this thing? And we're like, what do mean what's wrong? That's what it does. Like you have to do work still after you get the thing. And they're like, what do mean we have to do work? Like it's supposed to just do everything. Right? Yeah. There's, there's a, go ahead, Vitaly, please. Yeah. Just one thing on that. think it's a very good point by Greg as well. and by Sarah and by Guy too. I think, ⁓ one thing that we learned the hard way, of course, is that whenever you're migrating from
ep071 screen raw (38:12)
When it's not magic, they're like, hey, what's wrong with this thing? And we're like, what do mean what's wrong? That's what it does. Like you have to do work still after you get the thing. And they're like, what do mean we have to do work? Like it's supposed to just do everything. Right? Yeah. There's, there's a, go ahead, Vitaly, please. Yeah. Just one thing on that. think it's a very good point by Greg as well. and by Sarah and by Guy too. I think, ⁓ one thing that we learned the hard way, of course, is that whenever you're migrating from
Host (38:12)
When it's not magic, they're like, hey, what's wrong with this thing? And we're like, what do mean what's wrong? That's what it does. Like you have to do work still after you get the thing. And they're like, what do mean we have to do work? Like it's supposed to just do everything. Right? Yeah. There's, there's a, go ahead, Vitaly, please. Yeah. Just one thing on that. I think it's a very good point by Greg as well. and by Sarah and by Guy too. I think, ⁓ one thing that we learned the hard way, of course, is that whenever you're migrating from
ep071 screen raw (38:41)
away from legacy to something new or better, whatever. You never just do that, right? There is always another journey that you have to keep in mind, which is you migrating processes, the ways of thinking, the tooling, the everything, right? And very often this is what really can break experience at the point where people cannot afford it. Because a lot of times the legacies where the critical parts, like the mission critical part of the entire business lives, right? They can't just say, well, it doesn't work anymore for now. That's just not an option.
ep071 faces raw (38:41)
away from legacy to something new or better, whatever. You never just do that, right? There is always another journey that you have to keep in mind, which is you migrating processes, the ways of thinking, the tooling, the everything, right? And very often this is what really can break experience at the point where people cannot afford it. Because a lot of times the legacies where the critical parts, like the mission critical part of the entire business lives, right? They can't just say, well, it doesn't work anymore for now. That's just not an option.
Host (38:41)
away from legacy to something new or better, whatever. You never just do that, right? There is always another journey that you have to keep in mind, which is you migrating processes, the ways of thinking, the tooling, the everything, right? And very often this is what really can break experience at the point where people cannot afford it. Because a lot of times the legacies where the critical parts, like the mission critical part of the entire business lives, right? They can't just say, well, it doesn't work anymore for now. That's just not an option.
ep071 faces raw (39:10)
So you kind of have to slowly migrate everything around that legacy as well along with it and all the different connections, all different relationships and all the different ways of communication, ways of working, ways of everything. And that needs to be designed too. that's, AI cannot automate that. You cannot just create a new way of working and say, well, please do that now. And people are like, hold on for a moment, we don't know how that works anymore. So that's another side of it.
ep071 screen raw (39:10)
So you kind of have to slowly migrate everything around that legacy as well along with it and all the different connections, all different relationships and all the different ways of communication, ways of working, ways of everything. And that needs to be designed too. that's, AI cannot automate that. You cannot just create a new way of working and say, well, please do that now. And people are like, hold on for a moment, we don't know how that works anymore. So that's another side of
Host (39:10)
So you kind of have to slowly migrate everything around that legacy as well along with it and all the different connections, all different relationships and all the different ways of communication, ways of working, ways of everything. And that needs to be designed too. that's, AI cannot automate that. You cannot just create a new way of working and say, well, please do that now. And people are like, hold on for a moment, we don't know how that works anymore. So that's another side of
it.
ep071 faces raw (39:38)
The change management side of legacy stuff is enormous. It's fun. Yeah. I like it. I don't know if everybody else does, but I do enjoy it. It sounds like a topic for another session. Maybe. Yeah. ⁓ One other thought before we bring you up, Jesse, is on Greg's just kind of comment there, I just kept thinking about how there's like this element of
ep071 screen raw (39:38)
The change management side of legacy stuff is enormous. It's fun. Yeah. I like it. I don't know if everybody else does, but I do enjoy it. It sounds like a topic for another session. Maybe. Yeah. One other thought before we bring you up, Jesse, is on Greg's just kind of comment there, just kept thinking about how there's like this element of
Host (39:38)
The change management side of legacy stuff is enormous. It's fun. Yeah. I like it. I don't know if everybody else does, but I do enjoy it. It sounds like a topic for another session. Maybe. Yeah. ⁓ One other thought before we bring you up, Jesse, is on Greg's just kind of comment there, I just kept thinking about how there's like this element of
ep071 faces raw (40:06)
It's like FOMO, like leaders have this fear of, like they're making decisions based on fear. That's what it feels like to me. If I don't do this and everybody else does, what's gonna happen? And I feel like that, anytime we're making decisions based on fear, it feels to me like that's not the right way to make these kinds of choices. So I don't know what to do with that, but that's just like this feeling I keep getting. Jesse, jump into the combo. I was gonna double click on this idea of,
ep071 screen raw (40:06)
It's like FOMO, like leaders have this fear of, like they're making decisions based on fear. That's what it feels like to me. If I don't do this and everybody else does, what's gonna happen? And I feel like that, anytime we're making decisions based on fear, it feels to me like that's not the right way to make these kinds of choices. So I don't know what to do with that, but that's just like this feeling I keep getting. Jesse, jump into the combo. I was gonna double click on this idea of,
Host (40:06)
It's like FOMO, like leaders have this fear of, like they're making decisions based on fear. That's what it feels like to me. If I don't do this and everybody else does, what's gonna happen? And I feel like that, anytime we're making decisions based on fear, it feels to me like that's not the right way to make these kinds of choices. So I don't know what to do with that, but that's just like this feeling I keep getting. Jesse, jump into the combo. I was gonna double click on this idea of,
ep071 faces raw (40:35)
Is there a way to document it so it's good for humans and machines at the same time? I love this example about this accessibility markdown example. This guy's created this thing. It's like, is this human readable? Humans can read this. New people on teams can learn about accessibility. It's also written in a way that a machine can read it and also get up to speed as well. I don't know what that looks like, but I like that as an example of like,
ep071 screen raw (40:35)
Is there a way to document it so it's good for humans and machines at the same time? I love this example about this accessibility markdown example. This guy's created this thing. It's like, is this human readable? Humans can read this. New people on teams can learn about accessibility. It's also written in a way that a machine can read it and also get up to speed as well. I don't know what that looks like, but I like that as an example of like,
Host (40:35)
Is there a way to document it so it's good for humans and machines at the same time? I love this example about this accessibility markdown example. This guy's created this thing. It's like, is this human readable? Humans can read this. New people on teams can learn about accessibility. It's also written in a way that a machine can read it and also get up to speed as well. I don't know what that looks like, but I like that as an example of like,
ep071 faces raw (41:03)
the pace layers, like let's move slow and move fast at the same time. Let's make sure that the humans have documentation and then if the robots seem to go faster, they can do that too. Yeah, I love that. think my learning around this so far is that we're in a stage where creating things that are more easily understandable by humans also makes them more easily understandable by our current iteration of AIs.
ep071 screen raw (41:03)
the pace layers, like let's move slow and move fast at the same time. Let's make sure that the humans have documentation and then if the robots seem to go faster, they can do that too. Yeah, I love that. think my learning around this so far is that we're in a stage where creating things that are more easily understandable by humans also makes them more easily understandable by our current iteration of AIs.
Host (41:03)
the pace layers, like let's move slow and move fast at the same time. Let's make sure that the humans have documentation and then if the robots seem to go faster, they can do that too. Yeah, I love that. think my learning around this so far is that we're in a stage where creating things that are more easily understandable by humans also makes them more easily understandable by our current iteration of AIs.
ep071 faces raw (41:32)
but I actually don't think that's gonna be the case long-term, because I think that that is not the most efficient way for two pieces of software to communicate. That sort of assumes humans have to have eyes on a thing, right? So we'll see where that goes, but ⁓ Taylor, jump in. Yeah, I was thinking about the, we talked about like, you you've got legacy processes and the tools and all the things in there, but I think the other like, you know, the elephant in the corner is just the politics.
ep071 screen raw (41:32)
but I actually don't think that's gonna be the case long-term, because I think that that is not the most efficient way for two pieces of software to communicate. That sort of assumes humans have to have eyes on a thing, right? So we'll see where that goes, but ⁓ Taylor, jump in. Yeah, I was thinking about the, we talked about like, you you've got legacy processes and the tools and all the things in there, but I think the other like, you know, the elephant in the corner is just the politics.
Host (41:32)
but I actually don't think that's gonna be the case long-term, because I think that that is not the most efficient way for two pieces of software to communicate. That sort of assumes humans have to have eyes on a thing, right? So we'll see where that goes, but ⁓ Taylor, jump in. Yeah, I was thinking about the, we talked about like, you you've got legacy processes and the tools and all the things in there, but I think the other like, you know, the elephant in the corner is just the politics.
ep071 faces raw (41:59)
or you've got other leaders that have had that thing and it worked or it didn't work, right? And you're having to come in and go, hey, so know that thing where there's this new thing we're doing and we have to delete the work you spent your whole last 10 years on, right? Or something. And they're like, no, no, we don't do that. Or people are like, don't talk to so and so, that's their baby. We're not getting rid of that. You know, like all of that stuff. Like, so I think that plays a huge role, you know? And I don't think it's wrong per se, but I think we do tend to forget.
Host (41:59)
or you've got other leaders that have had that thing and it worked or it didn't work, right? And you're having to come in and go, hey, so you know that thing where there's this new thing we're doing and we have to delete the work you spent your whole last 10 years on, right? Or something. And they're like, no, no, we don't do that. Or people are like, don't talk to so and so, that's their baby. We're not getting rid of that. You know, like all of that stuff. Like, so I think that plays a huge role, you know? And I don't think it's wrong per se, but I think we do tend to forget.
ep071 screen raw (41:59)
You've got other leaders that have had that thing and it worked or it didn't work, right? And you're having to come in and go, hey, so know that thing where there's this new thing we're doing and we have to delete the work you spent your whole last 10 years on, right? Or something. And they're like, no, no, we don't do that. Or people are like, don't talk to so and so, that's their baby. We're not getting rid of that. You know, like all of that stuff. Like, so I think that plays a huge role, you know? And I don't think it's wrong per se, but I think we do tend to forget.
ep071 faces raw (42:25)
that the web is iterative, right? And it's supposed to be ever moving. It's not meant to be this thing we hold onto forever, but the challenge is our careers are architected in a way where we consider success, all of that stuff, right? Not the, can we get the next thing right? It's like, how many clicks, how many, whatever. So like, essence, I think a lot of what we're talking about here is great. And I think it's at the IC level, right? For like an individual, because you're working on something, their career incentives, goals, assignments are at the opposite of paying attention to these things.
ep071 screen raw (42:25)
that the web is iterative, right? And it's supposed to be ever moving. It's not meant to be this thing we hold onto forever, but the challenge is our careers are architected in a way where we consider success, all of that stuff, right? Not the, can we get the next thing right? It's like, how many clicks, how many, whatever. So like, essence, I think a lot of what we're talking about here is great. And I think it's at the IC level, right? For like an individual, because you're working on something, their career incentives, goals, assignments are at the opposite of paying attention to these things.
Host (42:25)
that the web is iterative, right? And it's supposed to be ever moving. It's not meant to be this thing we hold onto forever, but the challenge is our careers are architected in a way where we consider success, all of that stuff, right? Not the, can we get the next thing right? It's like, how many clicks, how many, whatever. So like, essence, I think a lot of what we're talking about here is great. And I think it's at the IC level, right? For like an individual, because you're working on something, their career incentives, goals, assignments are at the opposite of paying attention to these things.
ep071 faces raw (42:54)
they are incentivized to do the thing quicker, faster, more efficiently, know, in cleanest, happiest way to make their KPI for delivery metrics. And then us systems folks are like, Jesus Christ, can someone call us first? And then it's like, well, we're not in the same room, different charters. And I think that's often the other piece that's like, that one doesn't get resolved, right? Cause we all talk in our echo chamber here, and just for shits and giggles, right? Like what we're talking about. And then the ICs are still out complaining the system ain't working for them. And then there's that middle ground.
ep071 screen raw (42:54)
they are incentivized to do the thing quicker, faster, more efficiently, know, in cleanest, happiest way to make their KPI for delivery metrics. And then us systems folks are like, Jesus Christ, can someone call us first? And then it's like, well, we're not in the same room, different charters. And I think that's often the other piece that's like, that one doesn't get resolved, right? Cause we all talk in our echo chamber here, and just for shits and giggles, right? Like what we're talking about. And then the ICs are still out complaining the system ain't working for them. And then there's that middle ground.
Host (42:54)
they are incentivized to do the thing quicker, faster, more efficiently, know, in cleanest, happiest way to make their KPI for delivery metrics. And then us systems folks are like, Jesus Christ, can someone call us first? And then it's like, well, we're not in the same room, different charters. And I think that's often the other piece that's like, that one doesn't get resolved, right? Cause we all talk in our echo chamber here, and just for shits and giggles, right? Like what we're talking about. And then the ICs are still out complaining the system ain't working for them. And then there's that middle ground.
We're like, all right, we still got to work on the thing. And then we can't get to the other piece because there's so much other misaligned incentives or ⁓ old ownership and weird politics that are just like, hey, don't touch, don't talk. And it's like, OK, but if we do that, then that's a linchpin on the program you've asked me to do here. And if it's don't talk about it, then it's going to look like I messed up.
ep071 faces raw (43:23)
We're like, all right, we still got to work on the thing. And then we can't get to the other piece because there's so much other misaligned incentives or ⁓ old ownership and weird politics that are just like, hey, don't touch, don't talk. And it's like, OK, but if we do that, then that's a linchpin on the program you've asked me to do here. And if it's don't talk about it, then it's going to look like I messed up.
ep071 screen raw (43:23)
We're like, all right, we still got to work on the thing. And then we can't get to the other piece because there's so much other misaligned incentives or ⁓ old ownership and weird politics that are just like, hey, don't touch, don't talk. And it's like, OK, but if we do that, then that's a linchpin on the program you've asked me to do here. And if it's don't talk about it, then it's going to look like I messed up.
ep071 faces raw (43:46)
And that's the big circle, like, cool, then my individual career, KPI, nonsense, whatever is at risk. So I'm going to do different things that may not be right for the system. You know, so it's like the individual goal incentive thing starts to become such a huge play, especially in like today's world where everyone's scared for their job. So it's just an interesting social layer. Yeah. And organizations don't have, in my experience, most organizations don't have the different
ep071 screen raw (43:46)
And that's the big circle, like, cool, then my individual career, KPI, nonsense, whatever is at risk. So I'm going to do different things that may not be right for the system. You know, so it's like the individual goal incentive thing starts to become such a huge play, especially in like today's world where everyone's scared for their job. So it's just an interesting social layer. Yeah. And organizations don't have, in my experience, most organizations don't have the different
Host (43:46)
And that's the big circle, like, cool, then my individual career, KPI, nonsense, whatever is at risk. So I'm going to do different things that may not be right for the system. You know, so it's like the individual goal incentive thing starts to become such a huge play, especially in like today's world where everyone's scared for their job. So it's just an interesting social layer. Yeah. And organizations don't have, in my experience, most organizations don't have the different
ep071 faces raw (44:15)
incentive structures for systems thinkers versus product thinkers. And instead, we just cram systems folks into the incentives that product teams have, because that's what's existed in the org, right? It's like legacy incentives is what we're talking about. ⁓ And that's, we actually need both of those teams to be incentivized differently. And that's the healthy tension that we want in an org, you know? But most people just don't, they don't do that. So,
ep071 screen raw (44:15)
incentive structures for systems thinkers versus product thinkers. And instead, we just cram systems folks into the incentives that product teams have, because that's what's existed in the org, right? It's like legacy incentives is what we're talking about. ⁓ And that's, we actually need both of those teams to be incentivized differently. And that's the healthy tension that we want in an org, you know? But most people just don't, they don't do that. So,
Host (44:15)
incentive structures for systems thinkers versus product thinkers. And instead, we just cram systems folks into the incentives that product teams have, because that's what's existed in the org, right? It's like legacy incentives is what we're talking about. ⁓ And that's, we actually need both of those teams to be incentivized differently. And that's the healthy tension that we want in an org, you know? But most people just don't, they don't do that. So,
ep071 faces raw (44:44)
Great conversation so far folks. Would love to hear. We've got just about five minutes left here. ⁓ So what else do you see in these in this data or would you like to discuss here while we've got all these brilliant minds? We kind of sort of talked about in chapter like a second, but Amy Lee brought up something like product incentives and system incentives being separate. And then like it made me think about the idea of like everyone's like healthy attention. And it's like, yeah, but that's what it feels like at the leadership level. Then like I see it's like that just becomes I got to do what I got to do to make my goal thing.
ep071 screen raw (44:44)
Great conversation so far folks. Would love to hear. We've got just about five minutes left here. ⁓ So what else do you see in these in this data or would you like to discuss here while we've got all these brilliant minds? We kind of sort of talked about in chapter like a second, but Amy Lee brought up something like product incentives and system incentives being separate. And then like it made me think about the idea of like everyone's like healthy attention. And it's like, yeah, but that's what it feels like at the leadership level. Then like I see it's like that just becomes I got to do what I got to do to make my goal thing.
Host (44:44)
Great conversation so far folks. Would love to hear. We've got just about five minutes left here. ⁓ So what else do you see in these in this data or would you like to discuss here while we've got all these brilliant minds? We kind of sort of talked about in chapter like a second, but Amy Lee brought up something like product incentives and system incentives being separate. And then like it made me think about the idea of like everyone's like healthy attention. And it's like, yeah, but that's what it feels like at the leadership level. Then like I see it's like that just becomes I got to do what I got to do to make my goal thing.
ep071 faces raw (45:14)
So I think there's that, was reading Amy's note and I was like, that's interesting because that is the simple way to say it, right? Like we have different product or systems that is true. And then there's also the people layer and then the goal layer. And then the, you know, like just thinking of this idea of layers, right? Like those incentives are so forked, right? There's the product and then there's the people working on the product, right? There's the system and then the people working on the system. And then there's like all the players in between that that then start to shift how decisions get made, why people start to do certain things.
ep071 screen raw (45:14)
So I think there's that, was reading Amy's note and I was like, that's interesting because that is the simple way to say it, right? Like we have different product or systems that is true. And then there's also the people layer and then the goal layer. And then the, you know, like just thinking of this idea of layers, right? Like those incentives are so forked, right? There's the product and then there's the people working on the product, right? There's the system and then the people working on the system. And then there's like all the players in between that that then start to shift how decisions get made, why people start to do certain things.
Host (45:14)
So I think there's that, was reading Amy's note and I was like, that's interesting because that is the simple way to say it, right? Like we have different product or systems that is true. And then there's also the people layer and then the goal layer. And then the, you know, like just thinking of this idea of layers, right? Like those incentives are so forked, right? There's the product and then there's the people working on the product, right? There's the system and then the people working on the system. And then there's like all the players in between that that then start to shift how decisions get made, why people start to do certain things.
ep071 faces raw (45:43)
why they forego a discovery project, right? That maybe would have shown that something was at risk or not a good idea or a good idea for time, you all those things. ends up being tension becomes a reason to ditch things or move faster or make a choice versus ⁓ encourage better conversation. think sometimes that's the band-aid over it. It's like, it's holding tension. It's like, no, they're arguing. Like that's not a productive conversation. That's not holding tension. Like that's like.
ep071 screen raw (45:43)
why they forego a discovery project, right? That maybe would have shown that something was at risk or not a good idea or a good idea for time, you all those things. ends up being tension becomes a reason to ditch things or move faster or make a choice versus ⁓ encourage better conversation. think sometimes that's the band-aid over it. It's like, it's holding tension. It's like, no, they're arguing. Like that's not a productive conversation. That's not holding tension. Like that's like.
Host (45:43)
why they forego a discovery project, right? That maybe would have shown that something was at risk or not a good idea or a good idea for time, you all those things. ends up being tension becomes a reason to ditch things or move faster or make a choice versus ⁓ encourage better conversation. think sometimes that's the band-aid over it. It's like, it's holding tension. It's like, no, they're arguing. Like that's not a productive conversation. That's not holding tension. Like that's like.
ep071 faces raw (46:10)
they're eventually gonna be at odds and then we're gonna have that thing where brand doesn't talk to the system. You know that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That to me is a sign of just like toxic environment, right? Like if we cannot disagree and then commit to a path and still stay friends, that's a problem, because that's how you do good work. You know? I don't disagree, but I can only speak for myself. I have never had an enterprise environment where that's not been the case. There's just too many people involved.
ep071 screen raw (46:10)
they're eventually gonna be at odds and then we're gonna have that thing where brand doesn't talk to the system. You know that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That to me is a sign of just like toxic environment, right? Like if we cannot disagree and then commit to a path and still stay friends, that's a problem, because that's how you do good work. You know? I don't disagree, but I can only speak for myself. I have never had an enterprise environment where that's not been the case. There's just too many people involved.
Host (46:10)
they're eventually gonna be at odds and then we're gonna have that thing where brand doesn't talk to the system. You know that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That to me is a sign of just like toxic environment, right? Like if we cannot disagree and then commit to a path and still stay friends, that's a problem, because that's how you do good work. You know? I don't disagree, but I can only speak for myself. I have never had an enterprise environment where that's not been the case. There's just too many people involved.
ep071 faces raw (46:35)
Yeah, right. Like small companies, can kind of suss that out. But once you hit a certain threshold of people, there's always people that are going to be there that are just annoying. You know what mean? Like, well, would say opinionated, but annoying might be fine too. Kele. Yeah. So again, large corporate SaaS environment world. And I could not agree anymore. I think like in my perfect working environment,
ep071 screen raw (46:35)
Yeah, right. Small companies, can kind of suss that out. But once you hit a certain threshold of people, there's always people that are going to be there that are just annoying. You know what mean? Well, would say opinionated, but annoying might be fine too. Kele. Yeah. So again, large corporate SaaS environment world. And I could not agree anymore. I think in my perfect working environment,
Host (46:35)
Yeah, right. Like small companies, can kind of suss that out. But once you hit a certain threshold of people, there's always people that are going to be there that are just annoying. You know what mean? Like, well, would say opinionated, but annoying might be fine too. Kele. Yeah. So again, large corporate SaaS environment world. And I could not agree anymore. I think like in my perfect working environment,
ep071 faces raw (47:02)
The word instead of tension that I like is friction. And I think there is such a thing as like good creative friction about a project in theory. But yeah, like on a working team, that friction is usually just because people have different mandates. And one person has been told, like, I don't care about scalability. I don't care about systems. You have a deadline to hit. If you don't hit it, you're in trouble. So at the end of the day, they don't give a crap about my idea.
ep071 screen raw (47:02)
The word instead of tension that I like is friction. And I think there is such a thing as like good creative friction about a project in theory. But yeah, like on a working team, that friction is usually just because people have different mandates. And one person has been told, like, I don't care about scalability. I don't care about systems. You have a deadline to hit. If you don't hit it, you're in trouble. So at the end of the day, they don't give a crap about my idea.
Host (47:02)
The word instead of tension that I like is friction. And I think there is such a thing as like good creative friction about a project in theory. But yeah, like on a working team, that friction is usually just because people have different mandates. And one person has been told, like, I don't care about scalability. I don't care about systems. You have a deadline to hit. If you don't hit it, you're in trouble. So at the end of the day, they don't give a crap about my idea.
ep071 faces raw (47:29)
about I'm gonna build this really cool scalable reusable thing because to them it's like, it's gotta get out the door on Thursday and I don't care about your design system at all. And I think that's really unfortunate. And I do think it's the larger a team gets, the harder it is to break that ⁓ because- Really to your point, and then teams aren't willing to change their timelines to make nice with each other. Right, exactly. Like that's the piece you were like hitting on. It was like, that's the other thing. It's like, and they're not even wanting to have that discussion.
ep071 screen raw (47:29)
about I'm gonna build this really cool scalable reusable thing because to them it's like, it's gotta get out the door on Thursday and I don't care about your design system at all. And I think that's really unfortunate. And I do think it's the larger a team gets, the harder it is to break that ⁓ because- Really to your point, and then teams aren't willing to change their timelines to make nice with each other. Right, exactly. Like that's the piece you were like hitting on. It was like, that's the other thing. It's like, and they're not even wanting to have that discussion.
Host (47:29)
about I'm gonna build this really cool scalable reusable thing because to them it's like, it's gotta get out the door on Thursday and I don't care about your design system at all. And I think that's really unfortunate. And I do think it's the larger a team gets, the harder it is to break that ⁓ because- Really to your point, and then teams aren't willing to change their timelines to make nice with each other. Right, exactly. Like that's the piece you were like hitting on. It was like, that's the other thing. It's like, and they're not even wanting to have that discussion.
ep071 screen raw (47:57)
It's just like, right, is mine, this is yours. And I think in fairness to them, and because it's been my personal experience too, sometimes it's less about like individual people aren't willing to be flexible as like leadership is giving really confusing information. And so if leadership on one team is like, yeah, cool, build this awesome roadmap and do all this really smart, structural, scalable system work. then the people who are actually doing feature work on a day to day basis are getting told something completely different.
Host (47:57)
It's just like, right, is mine, this is yours. And I think in fairness to them, because it's been my personal experience too, sometimes it's less about like individual people aren't willing to be flexible as like leadership is giving really confusing information. And so if leadership on one team is like, yeah, cool, build this awesome roadmap and do all this really smart, structural, scalable system work. then the people who are actually doing feature work on a day to day basis are getting told something completely different.
ep071 faces raw (47:57)
It's just like, mine, this is yours. And I think in fairness to them, because it's been my personal experience too, sometimes it's less about like individual people aren't willing to be flexible as like leadership is giving really confusing information. And so if leadership on one team is like, yeah, cool, build this awesome roadmap and do all this really smart, structural, scalable system work. then the people who are actually doing feature work on a day to day basis are getting told something completely different.
That's just fundamentally unfair to the teams. Like how are you supposed to work well together when you're being given completely different goals to hit? So that's, you know, that's just like an unfortunate thing about business and about this kind of race to the bottom of like who can do it the fastest. And I get the idea of like, don't like great, the enemy a good, but I also think good enough is good enough is kind of like a crappy way to approach any product. Cause who wants like a, yeah, it technically works, but like it could have been really cool.
ep071 screen raw (48:24)
That's just fundamentally unfair to the teams. Like how are you supposed to work well together when you're being given completely different goals to hit? So that's, you know, that's just like an unfortunate thing about business and about this kind of race to the bottom of like who can do it the fastest. And I get the idea of like, don't like great, the enemy a good, but I also think good enough is good enough is kind of like a crappy way to approach any product. Cause who wants like a, yeah, it technically works, but like it could have been really cool.
Host (48:24)
That's just fundamentally unfair to the teams. Like how are you supposed to work well together when you're being given completely different goals to hit? So that's, you know, that's just like an unfortunate thing about business and about this kind of race to the bottom of like who can do it the fastest. And I get the idea of like, don't like great, the enemy a good, but I also think good enough is good enough is kind of like a crappy way to approach any product. Cause who wants like a, yeah, it technically works, but like it could have been really cool.
ep071 faces raw (48:53)
And we could avoid a whole lot of stupid rework if we just took five extra seconds to do it right the first time. So I think that's a friction point for me that I am always trying to fight from a design systems and advocating from the side of, hey, maybe it would make sense to slow down and think about this a little bit more. And there's always leadership that's like, nope, absolutely not. So that's fighting the good fight, I guess.
ep071 screen raw (48:53)
And we could avoid a whole lot of stupid rework if we just took five extra seconds to do it right the first time. So I think that's a friction point for me that I am always trying to fight from a design systems and advocating from the side of, hey, maybe it would make sense to slow down and think about this a little bit more. And there's always leadership that's like, nope, absolutely not. So that's fighting the good fight, I guess.
Host (48:53)
And we could avoid a whole lot of stupid rework if we just took five extra seconds to do it right the first time. So I think that's a friction point for me that I am always trying to fight from a design systems and advocating from the side of, hey, maybe it would make sense to slow down and think about this a little bit more. And there's always leadership that's like, nope, absolutely not. So that's fighting the good fight, I guess.
ep071 faces raw (49:22)
You're preaching, Kele. Thank you. Everybody's nodding and you're getting lots of thumbs up. So appreciate the perspective. Y'all, did it again. An hour has gone in like three minutes, it seems like. So thank you so much for being here, everybody. Vitaly, love sharing this hour with you. Thank you so much. Yeah, it's been my pleasure. This is very interesting, very exciting to be, to kind of hear the sound of myself coming through somehow. So we think we're on the same boat in one way or another.
ep071 screen raw (49:22)
You're preaching, Kele. Thank you. Everybody's nodding and you're getting lots of thumbs up. So appreciate the perspective. Y'all, did it again. An hour has gone in like three minutes, it seems like. So thank you so much for being here, everybody. Vitaly, love sharing this hour with you. Thank you so much. Yeah, it's been my pleasure. This is very interesting, very exciting to be, to kind of hear the sound of myself coming through somehow. So we think we're on the same boat in one way or another.
Host (49:22)
You're preaching, Kele. Thank you. Everybody's nodding and you're getting lots of thumbs up. So appreciate the perspective. Y'all, did it again. An hour has gone in like three minutes, it seems like. So thank you so much for being here, everybody. Vitaly, love sharing this hour with you. Thank you so much. Yeah, it's been my pleasure. This is very interesting, very exciting to be, to kind of hear the sound of myself coming through somehow. So we think we're on the same boat in one way or another.
ep071 faces raw (49:48)
Yes, amazing. There's so much cool stuff happening in the space, y'all. Check out Redwoods. If you like this kind of engaging conversation, Redwoods is open to membership. You can get all the info here. Check out the values and let us know if that aligns. We'd love to have you join. There's tons of events happening. I'm to be in London for UX London early June. We'd love to see you there if you're on that side of the of the world. Last week's or last Episode's ⁓ YouTube and podcast episodes are done with Hannah. So check those out.
ep071 screen raw (49:48)
Yes, amazing. There's so much cool stuff happening in the space, y'all. Check out Redwoods. If you like this kind of engaging conversation, Redwoods is open to membership. You can get all the info here. Check out the values and let us know if that aligns. We'd love to have you join. There's tons of events happening. I'm to be in London for UX London early June. We'd love to see you there if you're on that side of the of the world. Last week's or last Episode's ⁓ YouTube and podcast episodes are done with Hannah. So check those out.
Host (49:48)
Yes, amazing. There's so much cool stuff happening in the space, y'all. Check out Redwoods. If you like this kind of engaging conversation, Redwoods is open to membership. You can get all the info here. Check out the values and let us know if that aligns. We'd love to have you join. There's tons of events happening. I'm to be in London for UX London early June. We'd love to see you there if you're on that side of the of the world. Last week's or last Episode's ⁓ YouTube and podcast episodes are done with Hannah. So check those out.
ep071 faces raw (50:17)
Tons of good writing and podcasts from folks over in Redwoods here. Check all those out. ⁓ And again, of course, you know, this does not work unless you all take time to share your expertise. So thank you for being generous with your knowledge and your and your experience. Taylor, you want the last word I see? Sure. Yeah, I just wanted to say extra thank you to Vitaly. Like, I just think there's a lot of stuff that you get a lot of attention online and your your numbers are always high. But I don't know that people are able to tell you like how actually helpful that information is.
ep071 screen raw (50:17)
Tons of good writing and podcasts from folks over in Redwoods here. Check all those out. ⁓ And again, of course, you know, this does not work unless you all take time to share your expertise. So thank you for being generous with your knowledge and your and your experience. Taylor, you want the last word I see? Sure. Yeah, I just wanted to say extra thank you to Vitaly. Like, I just think there's a lot of stuff that you get a lot of attention online and your your numbers are always high. But I don't know that people are able to tell you like how actually helpful that information is.
Host (50:17)
Tons of good writing and podcasts from folks over in Redwoods here. Check all those out. ⁓ And again, of course, you know, this does not work unless you all take time to share your expertise. So thank you for being generous with your knowledge and your and your experience. Taylor, you want the last word I see? Sure. Yeah, I just wanted to say extra thank you to Vitaly. Like, I just think there's a lot of stuff that you get a lot of attention online and your your numbers are always high. But I don't know that people are able to tell you like how actually helpful that information is.
ep071 faces raw (50:47)
Like, time savings you've been able to do, like I can just send my team. Here's a link of stuff. I don't have to do the digging. I know they're going to leave bedded. I can't explain to you how much that has saved time and effort. please keep doing it. you have a Thank you. everyone, course, as well. Thank you so much for joining in and for all your kind we'll have you back for sure. Thanks, everybody. We'll see you soon. Cheers. Bye bye. Thanks, everyone.
ep071 screen raw (50:47)
Like time savings you've been able to do, like I can just send my team. Here's a link of stuff. I don't have to do the digging. I know they're going to leave bedded. I can't explain to you how much that has saved time and effort. please keep doing it. you have a class. Thank you. everyone, course, as well. Thank you so much for joining in and for all your kind we'll have you back for sure. Thanks, everybody. We'll see you soon. Cheers. Bye bye. Thanks, everyone.
Host (50:47)
Like time savings you've been able to do, like I can just send my team. Here's a link of stuff. I don't have to do the digging. I know that Vitaly has vetted it. I can't explain to you how much that has saved time and effort. please keep doing it. you have a class. Thank you. everyone, course, as well. Thank you so much for joining in and for all your kind we'll have you back for sure. Thanks, everybody. We'll see you soon. Cheers. Bye bye. Thanks, everyone.
ep071 faces raw (51:11)
Have a wonderful rest of the day. Bye bye everyone.
ep071 screen raw (51:11)
Have a wonderful rest of the day. Bye bye everyone.
Host (51:11)
Have a wonderful rest of the day. Bye bye everyone.
Ben Callahan (51:14)
Thank you so much for joining us on episode 071 of The Question. This format doesn't work unless folks like you are willing to share some of your experience and then show up here in learning mode. Remember, you can get access to the raw data, the collaborative FigJam, and all of the recordings for this episode on my website, bencallahan.com If you or your team could use an outside perspective on your design system program, I'd be honored to support you in that way.
There's much more information about my individual and team coaching program over on the website. Thanks for being here and remember, stay in learning mode.