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The Pilot Project Podcast is an aviation podcast that aims to help new pilots learn what it takes to succeed in the world of flight, to help people in the flight training system learn what they may want to fly, and to give Canadians and the world a peek into life on the flight deck in the RCAF. We want to help pilots succeed and thrive! We interview real RCAF pilots for their exciting stories as well as the lessons they've learned along the way. We'll learn their tips to develop resilience and the tools it takes to make it in flight training.
Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot project podcast, the best source for stories and advice from the pilots of the RCAF. I'm your host, Brian Morrison, and we are here today for part 2 of our discussion with Duncan MacIsaac. Today, we'll be hearing about his time instructing on Sea Kings, flying the tracker, flying the Aurora, and transitioning to civilian life, including his involvement with the veteran community. Without further ado, here we go into part 2 of our chat with Duncan.
Bryan:So after a time you transitioned to training other Sea King pilots at 406 Maritime Operational Training Squadron, how did this experience differ from operations?
Duncan:Well, the big thing was, of course, you, didn't have to. We need appointments aboard ship. You would take them out sometimes. I knew a little training with, what we called DDLs, your star deck landing, and, basically teach them how to land on the aircraft or, or on the ship. But we got a big a big difference was you were home overnight, basically.
Bryan:What did that involve teaching them to land on the ship?
Duncan:Just getting them used to landing on a small area, and I can talk a little bit up with the bear trap if you'd like. Oh, sure. The bear trap on the hold down system was, was very good, and, some people think that the, hold down system just takes over and and lands the aircraft. It doesn't. All it does is make you, a little more stable, but, basically, you're you're controlling the helicopter right to the landing.
Bryan:Can you explain what the bear trap is?
Duncan:A bear trap is basically where you're allowing a cable from the aircraft down to, the dock. Now they're hooking up a a heavier cable from the ship, which now goes up inside the helicopter and gets locked into what we call the probe. You forward a probe from the helicopter, which goes inside the bear trap. And when you've landed the helicopter, the bear, the landing safety officer, who's in a hurry off to the side of the flight deck, will close the bear trap, and it basically, at this point, you have, the helicopter part of the deck.
Bryan:Okay. And so it it basically locks it in place once it's down?
Duncan:Correct. Yeah.
Bryan:And and so you were saying people think that the bear trap sort of does it for you, but that's not the case.
Duncan:It is not the case. No. You can you can override, even at maximum tension on the hold on cable, you can override that with the clock.
Bryan:And so what's it doing for you as you are still, like, in the hover to land? What's the bear trap doing for you?
Duncan:The bear trap is is making the, the helicopter more stable. If you're landing at night and it's a a fairly heavy sea, the ship is moving around quite a bit. But no matter how much a ship is rolling and pitching, there'll be a steady period, and that is the job of a landing safety officer. He has to determine exactly when the deck is, steady, and he'll tell the pilot to land. Land now.
Bryan:And so you just basically, I don't know if this is the right term, but you basically thump it in at that moment. It's time to bring it in?
Duncan:Yes. You do. Yeah. But you don't wanna thump it too hard. Yeah.
Duncan:Otherwise, you, might might need a sponsor.
Bryan:Yeah. That's fair. Yeah. And and I believe that the bear trap is a Canadian invention, isn't it?
Duncan:It is. And, I know when they when they first started using it, other navies would, come and look at it and then determine, if it was something that they needed to have because I think Canada was one of the first, countries to actually land such a big helicopter on a small ship.
Bryan:That's pretty interesting.
Duncan:There were 2 different kind of, ships at the time. A class of, ship, with the Huron. There were 4 of them that, had 2 helicopters. So there were 2 hangars, a little bit of a larger flight deck, and, you had 2 helicopters on. The other ships I was on, Annapolis and Saginay, only had the one helicopter, one hangar.
Duncan:And each, ship had a little bit of a different role to it, But, the landing safe officer is the guy who would decide that, you know, when you have a city dock and safe to land.
Bryan:So we got on this topic because we were talking about teaching students to land on ships. You you did that initially just in a small space on land. Correct? Yes. Yeah.
Bryan:And then on that course, did you take them to land on a ship eventually, or was that part of their operational training?
Duncan:That's, generally part of their operational training, but it could also be done by the, instructors on, for all 6 quadrant.
Bryan:So what's that like the first time you take a student from doing it on land to doing it on a ship? What does that feel like?
Duncan:For the instructor, of course, it's, it's not terribly, a big deal. But I think for the student, it probably, definitely more challenging for them to, to do that do that right.
Bryan:Yeah. So I've interviewed a cyclone pilot a a little while ago, and I have to say the maritime helicopter role, it's just got so many things about it that are seems so challenging and so intimidating. It I think you've really gotta have guts to do that job.
Duncan:Well, it's kind of interesting because, I was talking to a young snowbird pilot at one point. He had only been an instructor in Moose Jaw and a snowbird pilot.
Bryan:Okay.
Duncan:And I said, Yeah. That's a really cool job you're doing, but you should try flying a sea king at night. And he had to think about it. He said, yeah. You're you're probably right.
Bryan:Yeah. It's it's interesting because we do have those those instructors. We call them pipeliner pipeline instructors or pipeliners. It's gotta be an interesting, world because you've only ever been in the training system. Right.
Bryan:So they've got an immense amount of experience in instruction and in the in that world, but then they don't have that operational experience. So it's a bit of a trade off. Yes. But, I have a lot of respect for what they do and, for the time they put in. And, I I don't know how it was in the seventies, but certainly nowadays in Moose Jaw, they're putting in some long hours and doing a lot of flying and a lot of good work.
Bryan:So
Duncan:Yeah. They they work very hard, and, they really know their airplane well.
Bryan:Oh, yeah. They're they're they're the pros for sure.
Intro:Like Yeah.
Bryan:Moose Jaw is probably one of the most intense flying experiences I've ever had. And that was in part due to the, expertise and intensity that those instructors brought to the table.
Duncan:Yep. I agree.
Bryan:So back to your time training students, what key lessons did you try to impart to your students?
Duncan:Well, one of the most important one is if, you know, you think something is not quite right, then you need to speak up. Because if you see something, you say something. Right? And, corporate resource management was a a fairly new item Mhmm. That we talked about.
Duncan:And, it doesn't matter how inexperienced you might be or might feel. Quite often, the insight that you get from another pilot is something that needs to be said. You know? Mhmm. The information being passed along.
Duncan:And it's always important that that they do that.
Bryan:Yeah. That's something we emphasized on the Aurora as well, as as you, I'm sure, experienced once you were on that fleet.
Duncan:Yeah.
Bryan:You've got 3 people in the flight deck and a whole crew in the back end and all with varying ranks and levels of experience. And the the biggest thing you wanna encourage is that passage of information. And like you said, if you see something, say something. If you notice something's going wrong or if you think, hey, that might not be right, The worst thing that's gonna happen is the pilot or whoever you're saying it to says, yep. Raj, that's intentional, or, yeah, I'm following that.
Bryan:Thanks. You know? But you might be noticing something that no one else has seen.
Duncan:Yeah. Certainly, as a as an instructor, you you do the ground duel, you follow the the, the syllabus, and you you teach in ground duel, you teach in the airplane. But, sometimes it just takes, you know, somebody asking the right question. And as the person would say, there there's no dumb questions, only dumb answers.
Bryan:Yeah. How did you find the experience of going from basically concentrating on getting the job done to more of a focus on mentorship?
Duncan:Well, I certainly, found when you're, an instructor pilot, you're trying to, you know, as I've had, teach all the skills and knowledge that they'll need to know, but you'll also want them to be able to, make that transition to the operational side of things. We wanna make sure that they have the all the information and tools that they need to be able to do that.
Bryan:Mhmm. I know it makes me think about someone that we both know, Mary Cameron Kelly, who was recently inducted into the I think it's Canada's Aviation Hall of Fame. She was my instructor on, the operational training unit for the Aurora. We call it Mote. And that was one of the big things I noticed about her when and she did a lot of my training through to aircraft captain and crew commander.
Bryan:And one of the things I noticed about her was that she wasn't just teaching me how to do the job. She was teaching me how to be almost a good person and do the job. Like, how do I she was mentoring me in in how to be a leader and how to be not just a pilot with your hands and feet, but a pilot in terms of how you treat people and how you interact with maintainers and their crew and all that kind of stuff.
Duncan:Yeah. And, I was likely to add, you know, Mary as a crew commander as well. And, what you're saying is absolutely correct. I don't know what she probably the best pilot that I ever flew with, but, a good person and, very conscientious of, what the crew needs and what the crew does. Yeah.
Duncan:That's that's important too.
Bryan:Yeah. Mary is very well loved. And how how crazy is that that you and I had the same crew commander?
Duncan:That is crazy. Yeah. And, we went to Hawaii together, and it was a wonderful trip, I have to say. We, we stayed in hotels out in, Hawaii. And when we came back, they told us we could stop for gas, but we weren't allowed to, stay overnight anywhere because we'd already spent all the money that that was in our budget.
Duncan:So, I said, well, if we can't stay overnight, we're not gonna stop for gas unless we have to. So I had a couple of bases lined up to to stop for, and I would call them an hour beforehand and say, thank, but no thanks. We we don't do the gas. So we were lucky, that, Greenwood was wide open. I was throwing a 1,000,000 on the East Coast, And, we flew home direct from, Hawaii, from, Irving Point to Greenwood, about 12 and a half hours.
Bryan:You guys made it in one shot from Hawaii to Greenwood.
Duncan:We did. One shot. And, the only way we could do it, legally is by changing our flight plan from IFR to VFR flight plan. About an hour outside of Greenwood.
Bryan:Oh, wow.
Duncan:And we landed with, the legal legal fuel.
Bryan:That's quite an accomplishment. I've I've done the trip to Hawaii a couple of times and actually once with Mary in 2016. And, we stopped every time in Comox, overnight and then and then from Comox to Greenwood. So I've never done that. That's a long trip.
Bryan:I've never done
Duncan:that before. Long trip. But as you know, stopping for fuel somewhere only adds a minimum of few hours to your flight time, hour to your day. And, more more than likely, it'll be 3 or 4 hours by the time you get back up the air. So, I think, nope.
Duncan:If we, if we don't need to, we're not gonna stop.
Bryan:Yeah. And I don't know what the rules were like back then, but you'd probably be getting close to busting your crew day if, like, in terms of the maximum hours you could you could be on duty if you had stopped.
Duncan:Yep.
Bryan:So up next, you took a break from flying in your career. After instructing on the Seaking, you were in charge of the officer training courses at CFP Chilliwack and the summer training courses for the regular officer training plan. What did these duties involve, and how did your previous aviation training aid you in them?
Duncan:Basically, you were looking after the, the the school in Chilliwack, making sure that, well, we had the the three schools assigned. There was the school in Cornwallis, the school in Chilliwack, and the, the school of Borden. So, there were 3 of us that worked the schedules, made sure everything, worked the work the right way. And I would say the the the skill that I employ the most was making something big fit in a small space because you had to make sure the schedule worked right. You had to make sure that the summertime ROTP students would be, gets our basic training done in during the summer when they weren't in school.
Duncan:And, at the same time, you had to keep keep the school happy. And, they, were very, you know, they were looking after instructors, of course, so they wanted to give people time off and whatnot. But, so it was a fine line sometimes to make sure that people were doing the right thing, getting the job done, but keeping people happy at the same time.
Bryan:Yeah. Trying to meet the demands without basically burning out your your people, which is always a balance in the military.
Duncan:Yeah. It is. It went 3 years, and, at the time, I was, looking to go on and fly something else. I wanted to make sure because there was a tendency to, once you were a sea king pilot, they wanted to keep that expertise. So Yep.
Duncan:The farther you get away from it, the better chance you're out of moving on to something else.
Bryan:Can I ask what made you wanna change from being a seeking pilot?
Duncan:Well, I I, indicated at the start that I I wanted to fly a fixed wing aircraft.
Bryan:Oh, right. The Hercules.
Duncan:Yeah. Being in, in trend in training systems headquarters, I saw that, the hurt balls were away a lot a lot of time. And, that's the time I had a young family, so I really didn't want to, do that. But I did have a friend that was, on IDD squadron, and, he called me up and said, would you be interested in finding the tracker? And, I said, yeah.
Duncan:That's, that sounds like the home thing I'd want to do. So that's how I ended up going to the tracker.
Bryan:Okay. And and that's something I think that's important for listeners, especially we have, a lot of listeners who are in the military flight training system now or who are fairly early in their career. I think it's important to recognize sometimes those dreams might change as your life changes. As you get married, as you have kids, as things change in your personal situation, it's normal and it's a good thing to sit back and reevaluate. Like, is this still what fits for me?
Bryan:What's the best fit for my life right now?
Duncan:That's right. Yep.
Bryan:Yeah. So like you said, up next for you was the CP 121 tracker. What was the tracker like to fly?
Duncan:Well, I think I, I described the tractor as, like, driving an old sports car. Yes. It was an older aircraft, and, those big radial engines made a little noise, but, it was a fun aircraft to fly. And, certainly, the top up mission we did, we had, I believe, 18 aircraft. 3 quarters of them were serviceable at the time, at any one time.
Duncan:That's pretty good. So on a weekend, if you want to go away somewhere, you were able to do that. So as long as, you know, you would be, going to a military base, then everything was taken care of in that respect. So, you weren't eating up the budget by by going away. But you were getting, the experience in the flying the aircraft in a generally more intense, kind of labor intensive area where they have lots of aircraft flying around.
Bryan:Yeah. For sure. We we've kinda said that before on the show. Sometimes people will talk about taking an aircraft on the road on the weekend and going to a fun location, going somewhere that they've always wanted to go. And I'm always concerned, like, maybe someone will hear that and think, well, hang on.
Bryan:Like, they're just using these aircraft, you know, for their own travel. But there's no such thing as a flight that doesn't give you really valuable training, especially when you're going somewhere new, somewhere that operates a little differently, somewhere that has more, high density traffic. All that stuff is really good training.
Duncan:Yep. Yep. And it's very important that all pilots know how to fly in a in a high density traffic area.
Bryan:Yep. Absolutely. That's such a key skill. If you're doing it for the first time under some kind of adverse conditions, you haven't practiced it before, you have no training, and and now the weather's bad or you're having an emergency or something like that, it's just gonna be so stressful. It's so important to get exposed to that experience, I think I think early and often if possible.
Duncan:Yeah. That's true.
Bryan:So were you excited to finally make that switch from rotary to fixed wing?
Duncan:I was. And, it was kind of funny because, I don't know whether if it's still like that now. But back in the day, I I suspected that we overtrained because as a career manager was the the guy who looks after your career, of course, and but he's got a a number of files that he's moving people around with. He wanted me to have a refresher course. So he talked about, going back to Moose Jaw, but then he said, well, all those courses are full.
Duncan:So, maybe I'll get you on a twin Otter course. So I'm like, well, wait a minute. You'll learn to fly the twin Otter before you learn that fly the track. So, anyway, my friend, called me up again, and he said, do you really need a refresher course? And, how about you just come trackers, and we'll teach you what you need?
Duncan:And I said, that sounds good to me. I just wanna fly. So, anyway, I went to to, Summer Side and did the, the Shracker OTU. There were 3 of us, Paul Turpe and myself and and one who was a returning Shracker pilot. And I believe, I do one more trip than he did.
Duncan:So, once again Yep. You talk about, overtraining sometimes, and other times, you just, you know, do what's needed.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And and that's another name that anyone who I have no idea if any of my colleagues from the Aurora days listen to this show, but, Paul Turpe is another well known name in the Aurora community, another very well respected guy, who's a great mentor to to new pilots. So that's really cool that we have a couple colleagues in common.
Bryan:Yep. Did you find any particular challenges switching from rotary to fixed wing? I suppose you'd had the fixed wing experience on the Tudor. So was it pretty easy to make that switch?
Duncan:Well, I think, because, of the I'm sorry. Graduating in Muisha made a difference. Definitely, helicopter will fly differently than, a fixed wing aircraft, but, as I had mentioned, a friend of mine who was on on trackers, took me for my 1st tracker flight. The Sea King would do a touch and go landing, but the difference was because of the wheels. The difference was you level the note.
Duncan:So that didn't work on a tracker very well. And, I bounced a few times, and I looked over at my instructor, who was a friend of mine. I was able to laugh at it. And they said and instead of laughing, how about you how about so you learn very quickly to do a proper flight.
Bryan:Yeah. I imagine so. Yeah.
Duncan:The good thing about the tracker though was it was designed to fly off a carrier. So the main gear was, pretty hefty. It could take take a lot of bouncing.
Bryan:Yeah. Pretty sturdy. Yep. So like the Aurora, the tracker was a rare bird in that it was an armed multi engine platform, rare at least in the Canadian forces. What was it like to fire rockets?
Bryan:Was that exciting?
Duncan:Yeah. It was, probably twice a year would go to the, trackety range and, carry 2 parts, 2 parts of rockets. You could either fire them singly or fire a salvo. So, the range basically had a target and, you had a range safety officer, and he would call your whether your, rockets hit the target or were caught close off to the target or whatever. So he would rate your, your firing ability.
Duncan:But the, the rocket could also fire salvo. And, I got to do that once where you put, put, most pods on to fire a salvo and, all rockets fired at the same time. That was very exciting.
Bryan:Yeah. I think that sounds really fun. Yeah. And did you hit it?
Duncan:Of course. Well, what a question.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. You're a professional.
Duncan:Well, it's interesting because, you know, we would practice rocket runs, with the navy, the type of exercises we did. And, the procedure was to be at low as close to the water as possible, and you'd pop up and roll in on your target, fire rockets, and, get away as quickly as possible. But, if you ever had to do that in real life, your odds of, doing the second half of that, getting away unharmed, was unlikely. If you never had to do that in real life, that's fine coverage.
Bryan:Yeah. So I was gonna ask that. So the tar intended target of these rockets was these were anti ship, rockets, essentially.
Duncan:Correct. That's correct.
Bryan:Yeah. That's interesting you describing that approach. It's almost a cross between do you think back to World War 2? Sort of a cross between the approach of a torpedo, aircraft and and then popping up and almost doing a dive bomb profile. Exactly.
Duncan:Yep. That's what you'll be doing.
Bryan:Which were both very dangerous, John.
Duncan:It would be a suicide mission. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You you would hope to have your target first.
Bryan:Yeah. So like you said, thank goodness you never had to do that in anger. No. And this was all during the height of the Cold War. Right?
Duncan:This was during the Cold War. So whether it be seeking our tracker, whenever we deployed, on the Eastland Eastland or NATO, mission, we, always had company. People were following us around and, you know, seeing what the tactics were. And we knew there was a submarine underneath, as well. So they were always there.
Bryan:They were always, like, observing and trying to basically analyze NATO tactics?
Duncan:That's right. Yeah.
Bryan:Yeah. That's interesting. I guess there must have been more of a feeling during the Cold War of like, okay. This this could be for real. Like, we might really need to use these.
Bryan:We might really do a rocket attack. We might really need to hunt a submarine.
Duncan:That's correct. And, I mean, we called we were Cold War warriors, but, I mean, war could have broken out at any time and, almost did back in the time of the, Cuban Missile Crisis. But Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Duncan:You had to be prepared in case, you know, things got heated up.
Bryan:Yeah. For sure. Thank goodness for JFK there. Yep. So during your time with 880 maritime reconnaissance squadron, you flew the tracker to Bermuda and even to the magnetic north pole.
Bryan:Can you tell us more about these experiences?
Duncan:Yeah. The tracker was quite often, like I said, flying with the navy doing exercises. So, when the navy headed south, then the tracker would be deployed to Bermuda. They had the fuel tanks down there that they, truck could use. And, when I finally got on the tracker OTU, the operational training unit, on our course, we were the last 2 trackers that landed in Bermuda.
Duncan:We refilled them when we left. Those fuel tanks were decommissioned. So we were the last 2 trackers in Bermuda. The, survey I took to the Montana North Pole was on a, a northern patrol. And, basically, what we do is fly up north and land at various locations up there, and we would check on the new line to make sure that the, you know, the radar's basically the stations were were still there and in one piece.
Duncan:And, when we went to the, Montana North Pole, it was also a bit of a show of the flag because there was a, a nice station, located on the ice at the Millennium War Room Wall, and we we flew around them just along the way we were there and keeping an eye on them. They were inside outside, Canadian Charter of water, but, we had to let them know that we were there.
Bryan:Yeah. Now you mentioned the due line. Can you explain to listeners? Probably some of our younger listeners don't know what the DEW line is. Can you explain what that is?
Duncan:Yeah. There was a a system of radars across the north, basically, looking for anybody that would enter the North American area, whether it be, no, airplanes transiting to the United States or are entering Canadian airspace that shouldn't be there. So, the new line was, like I say, a a collection of radars that were across the north, and we would have to have a clearance. These 2 enter Canadian airspace.
Bryan:New line stood for distant early warning.
Duncan:Yep.
Bryan:The other question I really wanted to ask you about flying to the magnetic north pole was what was your compass doing? Was it basically just spinning around?
Duncan:The compass was just spinning around. And, when you go up north, you would operate what we call your mega system in true. In other words, the the magnetic your composite and your magnetic system was useless to you, so you offered everything in true.
Bryan:In, in to true north?
Duncan:Yep.
Bryan:Yep. And that's, of course, for anyone familiar with northern operations, still done today, Well, because you have to. But Yeah. Because you have to. It was it's a lot easier nowadays, though, with the advent of of GPS and all those different things.
Bryan:Was there any extra challenges involved in flying up north, when you were up there?
Duncan:Well, like I said, you had to, have somebody teach you how you, run the Omega system in true. Once you knew how to do it, it wasn't, wasn't that terribly complex. But, until you knew how to do it and had confidence in it, that it would get you home. The, ADF system or the, direction finding system basically is a signal sign out from, tower to any aircraft. And, up north, they were quite strong.
Duncan:So, I mean, you could, dial in on a ADF system and know exactly where you were.
Bryan:Okay. So you had you had some other ways to back up your Omega system
Duncan:Yeah.
Bryan:In true and That's right. And use those ADFs to make to confirm basically where you were.
Duncan:Yeah.
Bryan:We've touched a little on this, but what were the roles the tracker served in?
Duncan:Well, like I said, doing the, exercises for the navy, a combat exercise where, the navy would, sign you either to, look at an area. They don't want you to do, do a surface search, and make sure that they, the find or foe kinda thing. And, the other one is, just a surveillance system. Like I said, the northern patrol, well, it's the child of 5, and and seeing who's around, see if they're up there. And, the fisher patrol.
Duncan:Yeah. Quite often, we will fly out of, Saint John's, and we'll work for the department of fisheries when we're over there. And, they would have certain areas where they wanted you to look at. And, you were out on the Grand Banks quite a bit. Yeah.
Duncan:And, there is an area known as a Flemish Gap, which is quite far out. And, tracker is interesting because it actually burns more fuel if you have an engine failure, because you're using the one engine to fly on. And, so your prudent limit of endurance was SPLE, which is single engine with limit of endurance. So you would, have to, you only have about 15 to 20 minutes on the Farametch cap and before you have to return to, back to Saint John's.
Bryan:Oh, wow. So it's a little further out than I was thinking.
Duncan:Yep. Yeah. It's quite far out, past the 200 mile limit.
Bryan:Did you guys on the tracker do much ASW or anti submarine warfare?
Duncan:Once we lost the the carrier Bonaventure, the, most of the equipment for, anti submarine warfare was removed, and it became just a, coastal reconnaissance aircraft. Although we, we still carry a fusion of the boys, certainly not the number that we used to, when the aircraft was, on the ASW platform.
Bryan:Okay. That's pretty interesting. And I guess that would just be because once you were not operating off a ship, you were no longer really using that role to screen the high value asset, or the carrier.
Duncan:Yeah. Correct. And, it, it limited the range too in, in what you could do.
Bryan:Oh, yeah. Of course.
Duncan:What they had done is they had installed a fuel tank in the, down where underneath where the, torpedoes would normally be. And, interestingly enough, you have to use that fuel first and make sure that, you know because there was no gauge to tell you how much was in it. You wanna make sure that tank goes full. And, so you use that first and then your wing tanks.
Bryan:Okay. So similar then to the Aurora with the center tank and then the wing tanks.
Duncan:Correct. Yeah. Except for the Aurora, I think everything was pretty much automatic, although with the flight and air, we'll definitely select which position you want it. In the tracker, you would definitely wanna make sure that toggle switch is thrown open first and make sure that the the the field's coming a lot. Thanks for it.
Bryan:That's funny to hear you say that the Aurora is more automatic because, of course, we we thought of the Aurora as we were flying it, you know, in in 2012 as as fairly manual compared to a lot of modern aircraft. Yeah. But, of course, it'd be far more automatic than the tracker, which was truly manual.
Duncan:Yep. That's true. But, you know what? The the tracker had a very nice, autopilot because although it was old, it it it had something where you could dial down your altitude. So you could dial it down to, what, a 500 feet a minute of descent, and, it would hold that.
Bryan:Oh, really? Yep. Which is pretty advanced, autopilot for the the seventies.
Duncan:Yes. It was. Yep.
Bryan:And for an aircraft that at that time was already fairly old.
Duncan:Yep. That's correct. The other, the other aspect I found kinda strange when I made the transition to the Aurora was that, we had on the tracker, we had what's called handheld radio, for STAR SAT.
Bryan:So when you say STAR SAT, search and rescue satellite. Right?
Duncan:Yeah. That's correct. In the Aurora, it was a Gibson girl, which at the time, I was saying, well, the tracker just retired. Why don't you take the radios from the tracker and put them in the Aurora and get rid of the Gibson girl? But,
Bryan:And for the listeners, it's funny you say that. I I just finished volunteering a little bit last year at the Aviation Museum in Winnipeg, and they have a Gibson Girl. And for listeners, a Gibson Girl is a hand cranked rescue radio that you had to crank to transmit on. So, basically, Duncan went from an older aircraft that had modern day SAR search and rescue satellite radios and then went to the Aurora, which had a hand cranked radio.
Duncan:Yeah. Correct. But, of course, any kind of equipment change will require, as you know, everything to be approved by Ottawa, and it would have to be, I forget the term.
Bryan:Essentially validated for flight. Right. Yeah. And which is always a big process.
Duncan:Yeah. A big process. Yeah.
Bryan:So as we've said, the tracker was eventually decommissioned and you found yourself flying Auroras. How did the Aurora and the tracker compare in terms of how they flew and operated?
Duncan:Oh, huge a huge difference because, LSAT, the tracker was, with the old engines on the old radial engines. It was quite loud. The Aurora was like, and now you're moving from a, an older much older aircraft to a more modern aircraft, a 4 engine aircraft, very much more capable of doing, different things and and flying a lot longer. Mhmm. The biggest thing I liked about the Aurora was to be able to go back and get a coffee.
Bryan:Yeah. That was one of my favorite things too.
Duncan:And, also, being able to use the washroom. That's, very important. Yes. Yep. Yep.
Bryan:Yep. Honestly, my 2 one of my two things when I was choosing an aircraft, was that I wanted to be able to get a coffee and use the bathroom. So the Aurora checked those boxes.
Duncan:There you go. Hollies are the same no matter what.
Bryan:Yep. That's right. And in terms of, how they handled as an aircraft, how do they compare?
Duncan:To tell you the truth, the Aurora was a big airplane. So when you're down at 200 feet, you had to be very, very careful about, you know, make sure you didn't didn't do a turn unencourined in a turn kind of thing because you could lose, off road very quickly.
Bryan:Yep.
Duncan:I found with the tracker, you were much you you could feel what the aircraft was doing much more slow than you could with the arm.
Bryan:So tracker was a little more forgiving down low?
Duncan:Yeah. Oh, yeah. For sure. Like, I had no problem flying a tracker down to 50 feet if necessary.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Duncan:You would only do that with an Aurora?
Bryan:No. No. For sure. We we don't go that low in the Aurora.
Duncan:Yeah. Yeah. And, anyway, I I I did find that the Aurora was, very nice to take up a high altitude and go along trips.
Bryan:Yep. Yeah. It's a comfortable plane, and it's got lots of power. Great great for climbing, lots of power down low.
Duncan:Yep. What a lot of people, maybe don't know is that, when you're on patrol, you shut down the measure. So call it loitering, number 1, which, we could do from time to time as as necessary to save fuel. Yep. Because you're not going that fast.
Duncan:You're, you're doing staying in your, or your own area. In a search and rescue situation, you can, in the lower weight, once you've burned off some fuel, you can loiter, 2 engines. So now you're down to 2 engine, and there's an altered restriction because, of course, if you do have a problem with one of your operating engines, you have to start the other engine, fairly quickly.
Bryan:Mhmm. Yeah. We used to do that for training sometimes. I I tried to do it as often as possible just to get people comfortable with it because it's truthfully, it's a little uncomfortable to be flying a 4 engine aircraft and to have 2 engines turned off. You really wanna make sure everybody's familiar with those procedures, ready for what we do next if something goes wrong.
Bryan:There's a lot of briefing involved before you do it. Right. But I thought it was pretty cool that the Aurora was able to do that.
Duncan:Yeah. And, you know, the airplane flies quite well on 2 engines. Yep. But, it doesn't fly very well on 1.
Bryan:No. But you can, so something that it's funny. Mary Cameron Kelly showed me this. One thing we used to do sometimes is when we were down to 2 engines, go up to a we're up at a nice safe altitude, and you pull one of the remaining engines back to idle and then tell the crew, okay, crew. We're essentially on one engine right now.
Bryan:This is what it would feel like. Yep. We're descending at this rate. We would have this many minutes until we hit the water in which we would start other engines. We can easily do that.
Bryan:Yep. So now you can see that even if we were to lose an engine, we're not falling out of the sky. And it would make people have a lot more confidence in going down to 2 engines.
Duncan:Yep. Yeah. So doing it and, having the rest of the crew see it being done, very important to say as a confidence that that it has that capability.
Bryan:Yeah. I agree. I agree for sure. So one thing I wanted to explain to the listeners quickly is why is it more efficient to have 3 engines on a higher power setting rather than 4 engines on a lower power setting? So, basically, we're doing this in a situation, like Duncan said, where you're loitering in a small area.
Bryan:You're probably doing, ASW and submarine warfare or you're doing search and rescue work. You're not trying to go somewhere high and fast. You're staying down low. And, basically, the short answer is in a turbine engine, in a turboprop, the hotter the turbine is burning, the more fuel efficient it is. So it's actually more efficient to have 3 engines set at a hotter, higher power setting than to have 4 engines set low.
Bryan:And that's that's it in a nutshell.
Duncan:Yeah. And you explained that that much better than I could.
Bryan:So what would you say were some of the highlights of your time on the Aurora?
Duncan:Definitely, the trips that we did. We flew over Iceland, and we went to Scotland. The operation, that we did with the Dutch 3, the 3 Dutch p threes, Operation Mana, It was 50 years since, that operation took place. And what happened was at the end of World War 2, when the Germans were pulling out of Holland, they blew a lot of the, dikes and the dams, and, a lot of the villages were isolated by water. So people, really were having a hard time getting enough food.
Duncan:So very quickly, bomber command converted some of the planes from dropping bombs to be able to drop food. So they would fly over, and, of course, manna means food from heaven. Right? Mhmm. So, they would, they saved a lot of lives by dropping those supplies down to them.
Duncan:And it was 50 years later that we did the formation flight with them in commemorating Operation Mana, and, it was a 52 plane formation flight that flew all over, Holland, just to, let people know that, we were still thinking of them. And the Canadians are very welcome over in the the Netherlands because of at the end of World War 2, the country was liberated by by the Canadian troops. And it was a very, a very moving experience for us to be able to do that for them.
Bryan:Yeah. That sounds amazing. To have the opportunity to go there to a place with such a deep connection to Canada must have been really something.
Duncan:Yeah. It was. And like I said, we were looking down at all the people that were running the streets and, even, Schiphol Airport. We flew right over it, and, they stopped everybody from moving until, the formation, was turned around and and headed back towards, our various dispersal locations. So it was, it was quite moving.
Bryan:And I'll just note for the listeners, you you mentioned the that your information with 3 Dutch p threes. A p 3 is what the rest of the world calls a CP 140 Aurora. The CP 140 is the Canadian name. Everyone else calls it a p 3 Orion. Just something to note.
Bryan:So, basically, he was in formation with a couple other or with 3 other, Auroras. Were there any big challenges, involved in coordinating with that many nations and that many aircraft?
Duncan:Well, first of all, to, get authorization to do the formation, we had to get the permission to be able to do that from from Ottawa. So we did a good practice quite a bit with another Aurora before going over there. Once we were there, we, had a briefing with the, the operators of the Dutch p threes, and, it was a very, very detailed, what what can and can't happen
Bryan:Mhmm.
Duncan:During the flight. And, yeah, it was very interesting, working with, with them and coordinating with them. So it it was very interesting, as I said.
Bryan:And, listeners who do check out the video that Duncan has, online from our show notes, there are some photos there of that of that experience, close-up photos with information with those Dutch p threes and some of the pictures of the formation, and it is it's really cool. Speaking of formation flying, you flew all 3 operational aircraft you've flown in formation. Which one was your favorite, and which was the most nerve racking? And how were the experiences different?
Duncan:Yeah. I I flew, a 3 plane on the sea gang, a 5 plane with the tracker because at the end, when the, truck was being decommissioned, we had planned to fly over share water in Halifax in Summerside on our way to Mountain View in Ontario. So we practice that. And, being number 4 in a 5 plane, the old accordion effect, takes place. And, the engines on a tracker are not quite as responsive as, the Aurora engine.
Bryan:Okay.
Duncan:So you're playing with a throttle quite a bit. But you're still still trying to be as smooth as you can for number 5, which is, that's Taylor and Charlie, and, he's really really feeling the accordion effect.
Intro:Right.
Duncan:So, yeah, that was a challenge. And, of course, the flying information with the Aurora, a bigger crane. You don't wanna be, enter your position too much. Too close and not too far either because I'm here. You're gonna be paying catch up.
Bryan:Yeah. So which was the most challenging then? Probably the tracker because you're in position number 4?
Duncan:Yeah. I would say the tracker, but seeking was challenging too because, it was quite often referred to as a bunch of loose parts of flying information. So when you're flying formation with a bunch of, parts flying information, it, yeah, it can be challenging.
Bryan:Yeah. I imagine. A little nerve racking maybe. So your career also included a stint as the recruiting detachment commander in Corner Brook, Newfoundland where you were heavily involved in recruiting. What led you to take on this role, and what was the experience like?
Duncan:Well, when the tracker was decommissioned, of course, then you had a lot of people that had to go to various other jobs. So, I would have preferred, of course, to go offline somewhere else. But at the time, we were experiencing the apology surplus, and so I chose recruiting to go to. Being in that for the 1st 2 years, probably, I enjoyed it because giving jobs to people who really need the the really want a position, that's, that's really important. So, the first few years, there was a lot of, a lot of job openings.
Duncan:Any, other attachments that couldn't fill the position, we could. And and things slowed down, and they weren't recruiting as much as they had been. So we had, another another 2 years that I, I tried to keep the staff over there, motivated. So, it was a staff of 7 7 or 8, 8 people, I guess. And, that was a challenge, keeping people motivated to even though we had slowed down quite a bit, you you still wanted them to be able to do the job properly.
Bryan:What was causing that slowdown? I
Duncan:think at the time, I think the military might have been readjusting quite a bit. Like I say, we had lost a tracker, and I think other units had lost their positions as well. So, I guess there was an influx of people, and and now suddenly, just slowed down. Kinda like, you know, kinda like formation flying, you know, where
Bryan:Mhmm.
Duncan:Where, things happen really fast, and now it's time to slow down. So
Bryan:Yep. Okay. This wasn't during, the forced production period, was it?
Duncan:Yes. It may have been. Yep. Okay. So
Bryan:that may have had something to do with it as well.
Duncan:Initially as a as a starter sort of a. Yep. Okay.
Bryan:Yeah. So that must have been pretty challenging to keep people going and keep people motivated. I I find it's very it's a lot harder to be the person who's setting the tone. It's a lot easier to get swept along with how people are feeling, especially when morale starts to, be a little lower. It's very hard to be the trendsetter who keeps things, upbeat.
Bryan:So how did you do that?
Duncan:Yeah. It was a it was a challenge, kinda like feast and famine. We went through the feast. Now we have the famine. But, we did, quite a bit of adventure training.
Duncan:We we were working, fairly closely with the reserve unit over there. We had and started recruiting for them. And, to do that, we wanted to know exactly what it was they they were doing. So we had some, some training, some adventure training, which was, which was interesting. We went with them and out into the field, and we did all the stuff that we normally do to set up a camp and, had to rely a little bit on what I had done during my basic training.
Duncan:How to learn to be, my basic grande again, I guess, or an infantry soldier. But that was the intro. Yeah. Very, very challenging and and very interesting.
Bryan:Yeah. And, I mean, you guys were in Newfoundland, so it's a great place to be outside. That's one of the the big pastimes of living in Newfoundland and Labrador is time outside. People love to hunt and fish and hike and all those things. Right?
Bryan:It's Yeah. It's got a lot of beautiful spaces. Yeah. Correct.
Duncan:One of the things we did was go up to Gros Morne National Park.
Bryan:Oh, beautiful.
Duncan:And we took a day and we went up there, and I took several of the staff and we climbed Rosemarie mountain. And, I remember sitting halfway up. We just thought to take a little rest, and we could see someone coming. Basically, it was like, almost like a gully on a lot of rocks. And as it turns out, it was a a young girl, and, she dashed that high and kept right on going.
Duncan:She didn't need to stop for us at all. Like, I think she had done it before.
Bryan:Yep. Yeah. I guess so. Put you guys to shame a little bit. Yeah.
Bryan:So let's talk a little bit about your transition to civilian life and your community involvement. After 27 years of service, you transitioned to civilian life while continuing as a reservist in Greenwood operations for another 8 years. How did you navigate this change, and what advice would you give to other service members facing a similar transition? And did you find joining the reserves helped ease your transition to civilian life?
Duncan:I definitely did. At the time, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. So, one of the, guys I work with said, well, how about you consider joining your reserves, and you can continue to to do the same job? And, it would just be 10 days a month. And, so I decided that this sounded pretty good.
Duncan:So I made the transition to the reserve unit. And, it's kind of a funny story with that one because I had done the interview, and everything looked good. And, so I had done my last shift as a a reg force officer. And, on the next shift, I was, back at work, and I got a phone call. It was the reserve unit, and they said, captain McCarjek, where are you at right now?
Duncan:And, I'd work, of course. And, she said, well, you do have to sign some papers first. You know? So oh, yeah. Yeah.
Duncan:There's that part of it too. So, anyway, I, I, took an hour or so when I went to those area of units and, did the paperwork that was required.
Bryan:Do you have any advice you'd give to service members who are maybe getting to the end of a long career?
Duncan:Well, it it is interesting because, I was reading, the Legion Magazine, which we as the Legion member, you got the some magazine. They are talking about recruiting in the Canadian Forces. Right now, we're short about 15,000 positions, which is a lot. And they were talking about even, somebody transiting transitioning to the reserve position can take anywhere from 6 months to 2 years. Wow.
Duncan:And, I think I I just told you how quickly my my situation, changed, but that was back in, you know, 2,001. So a little bit different now. It takes a bit a bit longer. That, definitely, is something that, someone should consider, if they haven't, you know, decided what exactly they wanna do. And, anyway, look at a reserve position if you, if you think that, that would be a suitable position for you.
Bryan:Okay. You're actively involved in your community, particularly with the Lions Club and the Royal Canadian Legion. What drives your passion for community service, and how do you see it connecting to your military background?
Duncan:Well, I think that, you know, depending on what organization you you, belong to, I always said that, you know, with my military career, we moved around quite a bit, and, so really didn't, weren't able to join any kind of, organization that want to keep people for a long term. So, I said once I get out, of the right force or the regular force, anyway, I would look at, or other organizations. So, the Lions Club, we were living in Hanford at the time, and, they needed new members. We, when we joined, they probably had around 30 to 35 members. And, now we're down to probably about 16 members.
Duncan:So
Bryan:Okay.
Duncan:And we we are the young young ones in our club right now. Oh, wow. So we're having a hard time getting, newer and younger members to join, whether it be our club or any other club. Getting somebody to volunteer their services, it's, it seems to be a harder thing to do now.
Bryan:Why do you think that is? Do you think there's some kind of generational difference in terms of how people view community service?
Duncan:Is there maybe? I know that, certainly people are maybe having fewer kids or fewer children than they had in the past, but, they're very active. I mean, they're they have their children involved in a couple of different sports, a couple of different, kind of organizations. They're very busy. So, there is that aspect to it as well.
Duncan:So I think when you get older and your kids are a little old, growing up, then it makes it makes it easier to look around and decide what you wanna do. But, I have always felt that the service to the community, service to others is is important.
Bryan:Yeah. I agree for sure. And and that's something like that's one of the positive things we've mentioned Air Cadets in this show so many times, but it's one of the great things that Air Cadets teaches young people is service to the community and and the value of that.
Duncan:Yeah. It does. And that, it definitely sets a tone for, how you look at life and what you wanna do later on as you progress in your career.
Bryan:Your work with the Legion also involves helping veterans navigate the Veterans Affairs Canada system. Can you tell us more about that and how veterans can get help from the Legion?
Duncan:Yeah. A lot of misunderstanding about what the legion stands for. And, the, service officer, which most branches have, you don't have to be a member of the legion. You, if you're a veteran, you can go in there and talk to the service officer. And if you have an injury that, has been documented before you leave the service, then you have a better chance of a plan of, be having a successful claim.
Duncan:Also, as a a service officer, you generally know the procedure that is required to get further affairs involved. And quite often, sometimes a veteran will think that, they don't wanna do it because the money is coming out of someone else's pocket, and that's certainly not the case.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Duncan:The money is there for them if they need it. And that's quite often the biggest challenge as a service officer that you would face. Most commands have a command service officer. So if your branch that you, are going to for help can't help you, certainly, their command service officer can.
Bryan:Okay. So if you if there are veterans listening who think they may have some form of claimable injury, the their first step could be to go to their local legion and ask for help with with, Yeah. Navigating that system.
Duncan:They can do it on their own. They can, go to the National Affairs website, see what is required, and go through the process. But, certainly, by going to the lesion and, having a service officer talk to you and, tell you exactly what you need, it it can be a great help. And, certainly, someone who is dealing with PTSD or some other kind of injury like that, then, help is definitely needed. And having someone else that can help you navigate through the system, that, definitely, can help a person.
Bryan:For sure. I I didn't personally use Allegion, but when I went through Veterans Affairs, I did have people who helped me who helped mentor me through the process. And I will say as somebody who has a mental health issue, it was a huge benefit to me to just have somebody there to kind of confirm that what I was doing would likely result in success and just to have that comforting second set of eyes on on the application. The other thing I would wanna emphasize for listeners is that you don't have to be out of the military to apply for Veterans Affairs compensation. So if you have a service injury that's chronic, has lasted more than, I believe they say, 6 months, and it's service related and it's documented, you need to have a diagnosis, you can apply to Veterans Affairs Canada for that condition.
Duncan:Yeah. You can. And quite often, veteran affairs will deal with someone who is already in the military and, or the RCMP.
Bryan:Yep. Absolutely. Yep. I did that while I was still in, and, there's no problem with that. And and, also, I should note, your chain of command doesn't get notified or anything like that.
Bryan:So people who are afraid of career ramifications because, oh, I have this injury, but I'm not really, maybe I'm maybe I'm scared to let the doctor know or something like that. Veterans Affairs handles everything separately from the military. They don't notify the military when you apply for a disability pension or anything like that. So it's it's certainly worth looking into.
Duncan:Yeah. That's that's that's correct. And it's very important for people to understand that, everything veteran affairs does is confidential and, only only between you and them.
Bryan:So I'd like to as we get close to the end here, I'd like to ask for your advice for new pilots. The first thing I wanna ask is what was the most important thing you would do to keep yourself ready for your job?
Duncan:Well, certainly, depending on what aircraft you're flying, what kind of mission you're doing, the more you could be prepared, you know, the better your job would go. And so, whether that be looking at at the weather, at the aircraft's service availability, all of those considerations that, like, when do, a a financial mission, they must be considered. I mean, you know what? That's very important.
Bryan:Mhmm. So, essentially, being being very thorough and having that thorough preparation.
Duncan:And and being prepared. Yep. Yeah. And quite often, circumstances will change rapidly and, require you to do things maybe a little different than than what you had planned on.
Bryan:That is true. Flexibility is extremely important. Flexibility is the key to air power as they say.
Duncan:It is the key.
Bryan:What would you say makes a good pilot? What skills, both technical and personal, are essential for success in this field?
Duncan:Yep. Well, being able to, like I said, make make that decision very quickly if required. Knowing your own abilities, that's important. Knowing, what other pilots, if you're on a multi, crewed aircraft, knowing their abilities, that's important as well, and, just being prepared.
Bryan:Drawing on your vast experience, what key advice would you offer to aspiring pilots currently in training? What are the biggest challenges they might face, and how can they overcome those challenges?
Duncan:Well, I always think about the motivational video that, I have on my YouTube channel. It's really important that you know what you wanna do, but it's even more important to love what you do. And, I've always said that there are 2 types of polyps. There's a natural and, people who love it. And, sometimes you can be both, but, loving what you do makes all the difference in the world.
Duncan:And, you're gonna work harder if it's, you love what you do.
Bryan:And I would argue that loving flying, it's not it's not necessarily a requirement of being a military pilot, but, man, that is gonna get you through those long days of study, those simulator sessions, the ground school, all the stuff that's not the flashy exciting parts of flying because there is so much that goes on behind the scenes to be a successful pilot in the military.
Duncan:Yep. That's true.
Bryan:Well, Duncan, thank you so much for this chat today. It's been such a treat to learn about your career and hear about these awesome aircraft that you've flown. And I just truly appreciate you taking the time out of your day to be a guest on the show today. So thank you very much.
Duncan:Well, thanks for the opportunity, and I really enjoyed it. Can I, close with a quote? Yeah. Absolutely. Once you have tainted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
Duncan:For there, you have been, and there, you will always long to return.
Bryan:Alright. That wraps up part 2, our discussion on Duncan McKizick's career and remembrance day. For our next episode, we'll sit down with Ben, a special operations forces operator who decided to switch to pilot. We'll talk about why he made the switch, what his experience has been like on phase 1 flight training, and what his successes and challenges have been so far on the next episode of the pilot project podcast. Do you have any questions or comments about anything you've heard in this episode?
Bryan:Would you or someone you know make a great guest? Do you have a great idea for an episode of the show? You can reach out to us at the pilot project podcast atgmail.com or on all social media at atpodpilotproject. As always, we'd like to thank you for listening today and ask you for your help with the big three that's like and follow us on social media, share with your friends, and follow and rate us 5 stars wherever you get your podcasts. That's all for now.
Bryan:Thanks for listening. Keep the blue side up. See you.