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Presenting stories, insights, and efforts of those who interface with the natural world.
I got born in 1980. Whenever I was growing up, it was like the that's the beginning, kinda like we started having TV, documentaries, and just started seeing kinda like activist group getting kinda like a bigger voice. And I feel like at the time there was a lot of this of like, save the whale, save the planet, save the trees, which I completely agree. But I feel like the way we've been using resources, now we're reaching a point of, let's save ourselves. Right?
Rodrigo:Like now this is actually having consequences beyond, we're not depleting resources for whales only anymore. Mean, whales are having a bad time still, but then we're reaching a point where like, the conversation is more about like, is this just save the waste, just save the planet, but then we started coming and saying, you can save yourself, like you can save yourself.
Host:This is Surface Exposure, presenting the stories, insights, and efforts of those who interface with the natural world. In this episode, I'm joined by Rodrigo Sierra Corona, the Executive Director of Borderlands Restoration Network, an organization that strives to grow a restorative economy by rebuilding healthy ecosystems, restoring habitat for plants and wildlife, and reconnecting border communities to the land through shared learning. The organization envisions connected borderlands where rivers flow, plants, wildlife, and cultures thrive, and communities develop an inclusive restorative economy where a sense of place inspires a sense of purpose. The organization performs vital natural resource conservation work in the Sky Islands of Southern Arizona and Northern Sonora via land acquisitions for conservation and wildlife, watershed restoration, native plant propagation, education, and community connection. The Madrian Archipelago or commonly known as the Sky Island Region is a hotspot for biodiversity hosting unique ecosystems and wildlife found nowhere else.
Host:During the conversation, Rodrigo examines land and water use in Southern Arizona illustrating how natural resource conservation contributes positively to the economy. He showcases the efforts, work, and opportunities the organization produces. Rodrigo shares significant wisdom for folks of all walks of life concerning our relationship with natural resources and why we should probably care. He offers advice, insight, and resources for those who want to be more involved. You can reach out directly to the organization at borderlandsrestoration.org.
Host:Check them out on Instagram at Borderlands Restoration. If you find value in this program, please share it with a friend. Alright. Here we go. Rodrigo, thanks again for sitting down with me today.
Host:And from the Borderlands website, your mission is to grow restorative economy by rebuilding healthy ecosystems, restoring habitat for wildlife and plants, and connecting border communities to the land through shared learning. Do you care to expand on your mission and vision and
Rodrigo:what this Yeah. So one I mean, I've been working on conservation restoration issues for the last twenty five years, pretty much like most of my adult life now. And we want people to correct, we want people to see restoration, conservation, anything that can be good for nature as livelihoods and places where you can develop a career. I mean, it's not love only takes you so far, right? Like, people need to pay the rent and feed their families and feed themselves and take part on the active life of our country.
Rodrigo:So the idea of creating a restorative economy is to really acknowledge that all these activities first should be part of our everyday economy, right? Like restoration, conservation. If you think about the current way of life, there's nothing you do during the day that don't rely on a natural system at the end. Like if you drive through most highways of this country and you see cows, that's a wine space, but it's part of a food system, right? And if you go to a forest, most likely that forest is part of a forestry system where wood is extracted for construction, like in many different ways.
Rodrigo:And if you do recreation, then that system is part of that economy side. But then when it comes to how we keep this place healthy, suddenly that becomes not part of the economy. Suddenly that is like, well, if you have a nonprofit that you convince people to donate, it'll be nice if you can put money back into the system. So it's a pretty dumb way to run our economy if you think about it. So one the things that we are really trying at Borderlands is that obviously we want to see healthier communities, healthy ecosystems, but we understand that unless we create the conditions for people to work and thrive and grow and stay in these practices and turn them into livelihoods, we're not going to really achieve long term objectives.
Rodrigo:We're not going to do large scale projects like, kind of like in a way the dream is like how we integrate all these that it's important into our everyday life and we create this economy. It's not just we want a nonprofit that works in this place, doing these things. No, we want to be able to create employment. There's a lot of people, especially young people, that want to be into conservation, into restoration, and then they find out that there's no jobs or the jobs are pretty low paid. So you can do it for two years and then you'll be like, well, now I need to get into insurance or something that is more profitable.
Rodrigo:So the whole idea of creating a restorative economy is that it's acknowledging that we need to reinvest in our systems and that reinvestments go through restoration, conservation, but really giving back. And in a way, that the systems that we rely on, the natural systems that we rely on, will be there because we want to be here, right? So I feel like that is the bigger ethos of the organization is like to achieve that, right? Like to achieve that, this is not just a five year project and then we go somewhere or the bricks and, but like how would you become the, you how turn this into an integral part of the economy? Because it should, right?
Rodrigo:This is not Most of these items are treated as externalities, right? Like you produce timber, forest health, not that important. Well, it's everything, right? Like if you're a cattle rancher, the health of your ranchland, aka grasslands, probably that's the most important item. But sometimes we tend to forget that that's what kind of actually sustains the productive activity.
Rodrigo:And that's what I get, frustration and conservation, bringing people to connect with nature too. We have all these rural urban communities along the landscape that we work on both sides of the border. And you have kids and people that rarely engage with nature. Like they see the mountains every day, but
Host:they
Rodrigo:very rarely will go there and enjoy them, experience them. At the same time, we use its resources every day. Right? So it's kind of like first, generating that connection because it is true. I mean, if you're not connected to a place, if you're not connected to its issues, it's very hard for people to engage.
Rodrigo:And most likely they wouldn't engage. So pretty much taking youth and adults and whoever we can reach and take them out and be kind like, this is yours. This is the lifeline of all your activities. And we as an organization, we are very action oriented. So it's like, and you can do, right?
Rodrigo:It's kind of like, don't wait for things to happen. Like today, you can make this place better today. Like in the next two hours, you can make this place better. So really kind of give the, yeah, connect and then not just the power, but make evident that every person can do something, kind of like the action. Obviously we need collective action and we need large scale action, but at the same time, kind of individual approach to it, it's still important, correct?
Rodrigo:We need to realize as a society that we can do.
Host:Yeah. Economy, money, for better or worse, drives everything we do and see. And our civilization is made out of these natural resources. But on the day to day experience of people who may not be so involved with the sort of work you do, how do they see how do they see it? Like, where where do they see this economy in their day to day?
Rodrigo:Yeah. I feel like I mean, talking about, like, Arizona, Southern Arizona, 2025, I feel like every time you open your water faucet, right, you see the wart, because it's like I feel like today there's nothing, well, don't even know if that's true. I feel like today, water and the idea of water should be something extremely powerful for everybody that lives here. And I think it's coming to be. I think you start seeing glimpses of like, wait a minute about new development plans or mining infrastructure coming in, suddenly touching water.
Rodrigo:And just seeing that people are getting more engaged about water, just getting more information about what is going on with the Colorado River. It happens to some water tied to the Colorado River, and Patagonia and all the other rural towns that we work on, most of that is underground water, but then you have mining companies moving in, so it's only water that's coming to be a thing. So I feel like those are the points where, if you're going to collect where the water is coming from, how the water came to be at your tap. I feel like those are kind of like the places where you can, that you can see the chain, right? Kind of like, this water started at the snowpack in Colorado, and now you're drinking it in downtown.
Rodrigo:I mean, we're drinking coffee made out of most likely snowpack water from Colorado that came through Lake Mead and we're drinking it. So for this coffee to keep existing, need to be sure that that system, it's healthy, right? Or in Patagonia, like, you get water from your well, the well gets water through the aquifer and the aquifer has been filled like years and years and years of rain and other weather events. Now we're facing the consequence of climate change and we're getting into a period of like potential water scarcity. So keeping those places the healthy as possible and capturing the most water they can and the vegetation at its best, it will ensure or at least help us to keep those economies going.
Rodrigo:I feel like places like water, I mean, food is another one. I mean, like most public lands and private lands are in some way of productive states, whether grazing or mining or energy. I feel like there's very easy ways to connect. It's just like you know, we need to understand how the systems work. Like sometimes when I see rangelands in my head is like, well, these are food systems.
Rodrigo:So when you're eating, you know that you are connected to this particular place, Like a carne asada taco, that cow came from somewhere. Most likely was a grassland, either in The States or in whatever country where we get meat from, but it came from a natural system that most likely will not be moved back enough. So I feel like that would be kind how you see the connections from the ecology, right, like from the place to your table or to your water bill or to collect how many showers you take a day. Feel like that could be a nice way to connect and see that everybody can explain.
Host:This balance between restoration and production. So how what's the argument? What's the persuading, like yeah. What's the simple argument when you are presenting to funders or stakeholders in helping them change their mind and making decisions too? Yeah.
Rodrigo:That's a pretty good question. I feel like there's different approaches to that answer. And I grew up in the '80s, I'm 1980. I got born in 1980, and everywhere I was growing up, it was like the, that's the beginning, but kinda like, we started having TV, documentaries, and just started seeing kind like activist group getting kind like a bigger voice. And I feel like at the time there was a lot of this of like, save the waste, save the planet, save the trees, which I completely agree.
Rodrigo:But I feel like the way we've been using resources, now we're reaching a point of, let's save ourselves. Right? Like now this is actually having consequences beyond, we're not depleting resources for whales only anymore. Mean, whales are having a bad time still, but now we're reaching a point where like, the conversation is more about like, is Jess save the world, save the planet, but then we started kind of like, say, you can save yourself, like, can save yourself, like, your, from like, if you're a private branch chef or a public land manager, it'd be like, those grasslands need help, right? Like, you can do these series of activities to improve the health.
Rodrigo:And I feel like we're at a point where we're not just talking about like, Yeah, this will increase grass for wildlife and migratory birds and water provision for, I don't know, like waterfowl. It's more like, and now this actually will be part of this system. It's kind of like, if we improve the grassland, besides everything else that we do for the natural world, you increase or maintain your productivity for your cows or like the towel will maintain a healthier, or we expect that the water table of XTow will be in a better shape. So, kinda like, I feel like that is bringing more interest into the conversation, because at the end it's true. It's not like I feel like we are living in this idea that nature is there and humans are here and we are somewhat disconnected.
Rodrigo:And I used to have this thing of like, we are nature, right? Kind like whatever happens to these systems, it's like maybe we're not feeling it run away, but like, just wait. I just kind like, you are seeing it now, like, oh, this was like the driest year of record. Guess what? Most likely it's because how are we engaging with the planet as a whole, right?
Rodrigo:So how it's going to be next year? I don't know, but every year keeps getting hotter and drier, so most likely it's going to be hotter and drier, right? So it's just like I feel like the way that we talk about it is mostly putting humans at the center of the conversation. Because in a way, most environmental problems that we see, if not all of them, are actually human problems. They're not biological problems.
Rodrigo:I'm a biologist by training. And I feel like there's a lot of biologists and ecologists in the conservation movement. But actually, it's not that the biological aspects of things are the problem. It's more like how we have used or overused or changed patterns in a global scale. Now this is coming back at us.
Rodrigo:So now it's like, when you put humans at the center, we put them at the center as probably the cause, but at the same time, where's the solution? So how you how you frame humans as this is all the best to fix, which means that we can fix it and we better start fixing it because we're reaching those little points of like, now you can feel it. Maybe twenty years ago, it was not that evident, but now again, all across, in the point you're getting was this news of disrupted weather patterns and how they're impacting everyday people's life. So actually, the way we talk about our work is go beyond the jaguars and the mountains, which are important. It's more like, but where are we and what that means For us, again, sadly humans, we're very self centered.
Rodrigo:I wish we were empathetic enough that if I tell you, like, you know, the winds are hungry, we should change how we behave, you will be like, yeah, that makes sense. This is not only for us and there are neighbors, but sadly, we're not like that. Or at least we haven't conducted ourselves under that empathy code that I feel like we are really missing. So it's like if you're not going to do it for the waves, maybe you will do it for yourself because you're going to reach the same point because what we are doing, we got it. This is a closed system, right?
Rodrigo:Like the Earth is the Earth, Mars is not that attractive, but it's not for me. So
Host:great. Thanks for connecting all the dots and providing that bottom line. Like, it's time to do it for ourselves. And I want to talk more about what those efforts look like and what your efforts look like in doing that. But before we break into your programs and efforts, I wanted to speak more about the region.
Host:The Borderlands Restoration Network primarily serves the Midian Archipelago. Can you illustrate the region and its ecological and cultural significance? And what challenges and threats does the region face?
Rodrigo:Yeah. I mean, this is one of my this is one of my favorite questions because I'm originally from Central Mexico, Queretaro, like very close to Mexico City. As I told you, I was studying biology at my hometown. Then I joined this professor in a trip to Northern Mexico, so we came to Sao Guadalajara, Aguaprito Sonora, connected to mountain ranges of those places. I got amazed.
Rodrigo:I was like, I don't think I'm going back home. This place is awesome. When I came back home, I worked with this research chair to put my bachelor's dissertation together. And I remember that I told my mom, I was like, oh, I'm moving to Sonora, next to the border to do my dissertation. And I went to be working with black bears, other friends were working with monteles lions and bee bears and all that stuff.
Rodrigo:Was like, Mom, look at me, I thought, why? Like, there's nothing there and it's dangerous. And this was like twenty five years ago from Mexico looking to normal Mexico. So as of today, that was how we perceive Northern Mexico and Southern U. S.
Rodrigo:At the time, and I feel like that's how we still perceive the region as it's nothing here and it's dangerous. So every time that I give a presentation, kind like, well, let me tell you that all that is wrong. Right? Like, obviously there's some news that come from the region that, yes, they're true, but it's not everything the region has. So pretty much this is a If I see it in a map, this is kind of like a point.
Rodrigo:It could be just a random point in a map, but it's a point of encounter, right? These are a lot of my pitches for people. It's like, there's nothing more important for anybody than your home. This is, first, this is a home for a lot of people. So for a lot of people, this is the most important place in the world.
Rodrigo:For a lot of plants and animals and biodiversity, this is the most important part of the world. So that's how I tend to present it, kind like you're at the center of the universe, right here. Going back to the point of connection or like a point of encounter is that if you open a map and you Google, I don't know, like Patagon, Arizona or Douglas, Arizona or even Tucson, and then you see kind of the topography, it's pretty evident that you will be in this point of like the Sierra Madre is coming from the South, right from Mexico. It kind of like flattens here. And then in one side, like in the east side, you have the Chihuahuan Desert that eventually will become the Great Plains.
Rodrigo:And then in the West side, you have the Sudan Desert that transitions into kind of like Mojave, you know, that dry area. But if you go south, the Sonoran Desert kind of become like the tropical dry forest of the Pacific Coast in Mexico. And then a little bit north, you start seeing the Cerro Madre coming back again, now turns into the Rockies. And all the region is right at that middle point of like, Cerro Madre flattens, Rocky Mountains come up, so Northern and Chihuahua Desert kind of like almost touch each other. If not, they actually, they cannot touch each other.
Rodrigo:So what this brings is that you have plants and animals coming from the tropics, right? That's what explains why jaguars and nucellopes and kuaries and javelinas are part of our common world in Tucson. Mean, you cannot walk in Downtown Tucson more than two blocks without seeing a jaguar or a javelina, either in a mural, somebody's shirt, or if it's a javelina, maybe you actually will see the javelina somewhere. And then, but at the same time, you have like all these animals coming from the North following the Rockies. So that's why so long as you have like jaguars and wolves and bears, we used to have grizzlies in the region kind of coming together.
Rodrigo:So again, you have these, the tropics and the temperate areas kind of merge here. And that translate to like birds and a lot of like species, right? So that creates this incredibly rich place that part of the uniqueness is that you have this blend of everything. And then we have this, what I call kind of the evolutionary miracles of the region, where like, you have these tiny springs that will have endangered fishes that probably only exist in two or three springs in the region, that's it. That's where they exist, or some turtles that are like in two springs and maybe one little stream.
Rodrigo:So you have like first this collection of everything in a way, and then you have like these very particular places of evolutionary miracles. And then you have this tiny fish that it looks like nothing, but suddenly you realize that it's the only place in the world where that fish exists. To me, that makes this region kind amazing. And then you have two cultures or like two countries coming together. And that is kind of the easiest way to define the border.
Rodrigo:It's way more complex than that because you have the Tomoe O'odham nation right there. So you can see, well, there's actually three nations coming together at this place. And I always talk about this as like, in ecologies, you go back to the ecotone idea of the places where two ecosystems kind of collide is where you have the highest complexity and the highest diversity. So I feel like the border gives you that at all the layers, like gives you at the biological level with all the ecosystems coming together. So you have this very high diversity and complexity.
Rodrigo:But then at the cultural level, you have exactly the same kind of situation where you have pretty much now people coming from all over the world colliding here. So you have this very complex and rich cultural identity. That's how I like to describe the region. Just this place of encounter of culture, ecosystems, biodiversity, which make it incredibly rich and incredibly complicated for good and for bad, right? So kind of like you have the best and the worst of all these cultures, you have the complexity of ecosystems and the biodiversity.
Rodrigo:So that's the region. And then when we talk about the Madera Archipelago and kind of like the Sky Island region, pretty much it relies on kind of you have the two mountain ranges, this flat, but then you have these smaller peaks here and there. That's how you go from the desert floor to forest in the top and snow capped mountains during the winter. That creates this, again, kind of like these very unique places where at the very top you have species that could be completely isolated from everything else, and just start going back to these like evolutionary miracles where like some species got stuck at the top of the mountain, now cannot go anywhere else, and then they start their own speciation process, or hopefully they can connect with somebody else and they maintain the populations. And those are the ones, like when we talk about challenges, first one is obviously climate change, because we're getting drier and hotter, which means that the top of those mountains, it's getting slimmer and slimmer as temperatures rise.
Rodrigo:So some of the species that are, especially at the top of the sky Islands, they have no place to go. So those ones will be the first ones to pretty much start getting a really bad time. If not, they'll be in the edge of their system. So climate change, big problem. If you just go to all the climate change models, I haven't seen anyone where like this region is not just red hot.
Rodrigo:Like you see kind of how the temperature and dryness is going to change. And this particular place is kind of wind over, right? So we know that climate change and how this progresses is going to dramatically affect the region. The timeline, I mean, we keep achieving things faster than we are predicting, which again, it's not great to know, but that's a huge challenge. We're discussing water scarcity, I mean, it's that plus human consumption.
Rodrigo:I mean, we drink water and we use a lot of water. So, water scarcity, I think it's becoming more and more of a conversation and it's going to be a challenge for human provision and for all these other beings. I mean, you're a fish that happens to be in one spring, and that's all your universe, and suddenly that spring becomes rye when you're gone. So water, climate change. Human activities, I mean, there's some producers that are amazing and they treat their lands in the best way possible, and you go there, enjoy with, enjoy.
Rodrigo:You can tell when a rancher, it's a good rancher, and they keep their land in the best possible condition. Not all of them are the same. So how people manage the land, again, can be from amazing to not great and poor. So how we support management that sustain life in a longer way? Development, the region is rapidly developing with mining and data centers are coming.
Rodrigo:And yeah, so development will always be a challenge. More roads, more highways, more railroads, more like, all that is part of consumption. Yeah, kind of you have, and everything that I've been saying is that it's a challenge. It's we are the ones that can solve it too, right?
Host:In your message on the organization's annual report, you state that the organization plans to face unprecedented climate and political circumstances. Can you describe these circumstances and how the organization plans to respond?
Rodrigo:Yeah, so, I mean, this year has been interesting. I feel clement is what I was saying, kind of like, I mean, we know that. We know that we're getting harsh in the pathway. Political And is that, going back to this Ecuador idea of we're at, what, three nations collide, two countries, everything, the best and the worst. We are in a region that in one hand is wonderful and the people that we live in here, we love it.
Rodrigo:And the other is that we are kind of trapped into a geopolitical, how is it not like, sometimes a dream, sometimes a nightmare, right? Because we happen to be kind of like the division between what a developed country should look like and what an undeveloped country look like. You have a lot of tensions on immigration, you have tensions on trafficking of many ways. It's getting harder. It's getting harder to work under the understanding that the borderless region is not just one borderless country.
Rodrigo:But I feel like to understand this sometimes you need to be here, because it's not like a hard stop, right? Like you drive from here to the border in Ovaldes, and you can tell that Mexico is kind of getting in before you get to the border, like even the highways and kilometers, right? Like you can tell that you are merging. And then when you drive from Nogales South, you can tell that The US merged too. The borderlands, the way we see it, is not one or the other side.
Rodrigo:It's more like this region that happens when these two political, cultural, economical situations come together. So the way we're hardening this, the way we are hardening the vision, the actual line, is making it harder to acknowledge a region that goes beyond that. I to do my best to kind of like unfolding this. In a way, what we are seeing is like, we want to work, kind of like in a way it's like, we want to do our work as if the border wasn't there. At the same time, moving across the border is getting harder.
Rodrigo:I mean, just like the time that you need to wait to go from point A to point B, you gotta make things hard. This idea of we are a community, but free movement across the two places is getting harder for people and collaborators and labors. So it's kind of like, all that is kind of complicating the work. At the same time, we're getting kind like more and more issues to figure out what we want to, how we want to engage. I mean, border wall construction is like, it's using water, it's disturbing landscape.
Rodrigo:So how we engage with that? Because we're reengaging with so many other things. The immigration crisis, immigration issues. It's obviously like, sometimes you need to be like, well, we work at an ecological level. This is what we do.
Rodrigo:So I'm choosing not to engage in this particular item and this particular topic I'm kind like I'm not part of. And I feel like sometimes it feels weird to be like focusing just a portion of what is going on, but we cannot do everything. So how we respond to that, honestly, I feel like it's focusing in what we do and trying to keep doing what we do without getting distracted by everything. Acknowledging that what we do is important, and we want to keep doing it, and we don't have the capacity to do everything. There's other organizations complementing what we do.
Rodrigo:So in a way, it's like we do three things, right? We do land acquisition for conservation when especially critical wildlife corridors are at risk. So we do that. We engage in restoration activities in public, private, whoever wants to partner with us most likely will suggest through rock structures to prevent erosion and bring more water to the water table and the production of native plants to bring biodiversity back, native plants and seeds. And we offer education components on both sides to hopefully bring people the land.
Rodrigo:How we respond to what is going on, I think we respond by focusing on what we do and figure out how we can continue doing this correct, in the long run, and keep trying to work as if the border was not there and acknowledge that we live in a region that is beyond that.
Host:Yeah. Great. Well, let's talk more about that work. As you said, the organization's kind of all over doing a whole bunch of stuff, such as watershed restoration, native plant restoration, numerous education programs, internships, workshops. You're building the Borderlands Earth Care Center, doing wildlife preserve and wildlife corridors.
Host:And then if you even last year, you purchased the the 60 acre farm that you've been working on. Would you like to start with the your watershed restoration program, what that looks like?
Rodrigo:Yeah, yeah. So the watershed restoration program, I think, one of more well established or more famous projects in the region. So the Wireshed Restoration Program pretty much is based on, yeah, well, it's like ancient human knowledge, but by science, on kind of practices that allowed you to stop erosion, capture sediment, improve water infiltration and kind of like support the systems to recover or improve its water capture ability. And this happens through the construction of, from very simple to very complex rock structures, common areas like loose rock structures, they're part of this big toolbox called the Nature Based Solutions. And nature based solutions pretty much is replicating or learning from natural systems what are the little things that you can do to improve X conditions.
Rodrigo:So in our case, we want to reduce the negative effects of erosion. Erosion can be there's natural erosion. Erosion, it's process that happens because it happens. With no erosions, you cannot explain the Grand Canyon, and that was nobody else's fault. Erosion is a process that happens, sometimes gets aggravated again by how we use the system.
Rodrigo:So if a place has been overgrazed or locked or any kind of major shift in management and conditions, can exacerbate the increased erosion. And then erosion can, the negative effects of erosion is like reducing soil quality or organic matter content, and that will reduce your vegetation cover, vegetation cover change, water capture and how water infiltrates into the ground. So there's a lot of effects of erosion. So then what we are doing, and we would like to see it as like dry land beavers, like you pretty much start creating these little places where you can capture a little bit of sediment and a little bit of water, and hopefully bring back that capacity for the system to recover itself. And this particular thing, was in California a couple of years ago giving a workshop for primary school kids with Bernard Clark, who's kind of like another restoration.
Rodrigo:I feel like, oh my god, I lost the word. Yeah. Like, one of the biggest restoration personalities or like, I mean, whisperers or like she's Remember her name once again? Baler Kolar?
Host:Yes, yes, yes, yes. I
Rodrigo:want her. So yeah, she's amazing. So both of us were giving these little workshops for primary school kids, and we got like a bucket of sand and a bucket of rocks and water. The holiday was to teach them how to make this one rock dam stop, the rock structures. It took like ten seconds for them to catch it.
Rodrigo:It's kind of like, well, I'm going to pull water. The holidays to capture the water. And it was amazing to see how like all the kids were like immediately building them the way they should be built, right? That you make this like half moon shape, and you put rocks and sand, and so did you catch your water. So it's like this innate capacity because I mean, we all, like when you go to the ocean or to a lake, everybody start playing with water, right?
Rodrigo:Like you start making channels and you start making how to capture water. So it's using that like basic human knowledge that a lot of civilizations have developed over millennia and then put it to work not just for crops, because most of the time it was for crops or for water provision, but more like for the environment and for everybody's provision. So at the same time, will impact you at the end, but we're using all these kind of technologies that were designed to have better crops, have better water provision. So now we're just putting it into the wild so we can have more native plants, more water for wildlife. Eventually that will impact us.
Rodrigo:So that's kind the watershed restoration project. In that one, we do a lot of hands on work. I think to date, we have built more than 7,000 structures across Southern Arizona in land that we own and land that others own and we partner with them, like from federal public lands to private renters and sometimes neighbors that want to capture water at their homes. We go from a very multi scale approach on this one. So I say that is We have a water restoration crew that pretty much spends every day building structures.
Rodrigo:They lower in a way that sometimes is hard to understand. And it can be 100 degrees and you can actually try to convince them to don't go out and don't do it that day. They'll be like, No, we're fine. We want to go out and do it. I feel like you get the same answer to a lot of our staff members when you ask them, Why did you do it?
Rodrigo:It's like, Well, because we can see how this thing improves rapidly. We built a rock structure today, it's rained tomorrow, and you can see that it's doing its work, right? You're capturing sediment, you can see where in the surface, you come back next year and you see plants coming back. So there's this sense of almost immediate satisfaction that keeps you going. That's a really nice thing about restoration.
Rodrigo:When you are able to see the results, it becomes kind of addictive because you want more of that, right? Like you want to see more and more and more. So I would say, like, that's the watershed research project program.
Host:You mentioned Ballard Clark. Are you familiar with their story and their original efforts in the Chiricahua Mountains and then their work in involvement in the Cuenca Los Ojos
Rodrigo:Oh, yeah. Preserve? Yeah. Like, I I did my when I told you the story of how I ended here, I did my bachelor's rotation in Cuenca Los Zohos, like in twenty something years ago. I've known Valer for twenty five years.
Rodrigo:I served as a board member for Cuenca Los Zohos for, I don't remember, like three to four years. So one of the things that actually inspired Borderlands was this idea of like, kind of places like Puente, Puente Los Ojos and Valerian Jo's work shows you what could be possible, right? Like, you can see places that got dramatically improved by changing how you manage them and then supporting restoration practices. So then the idea of creating borderlands is kind like, well, how we scale these restoration efforts, right? Like how do you scale privately financed restoration efforts and bring it to everybody?
Rodrigo:Right? Because restoration and coordination, for them to be successful at the scale that we need, they need to be scalable. We need to be able to pay for them. We need to be able to have ways to do it that pretty much everybody can be part of it. So one of the big objectives for Borderlands as an organization is kind of like how we, in a way, democratize restoration and conservation, how everybody can do something, right?
Rodrigo:Like your pollinator garden, plus water harvesting gardens, plus you volunteer once a month with either, you know, there's plenty of organizations to volunteer with here, so how you can be part of. So that's kind of like one of the main goals and go back to the idea of the regenerative economy. So Cuenca other Cuenca Rosobos and other big restoration projects serves as kind of like models and inspirations. And then how we take those models and make them scalable and approachable and bring more people into the practice, into that show.
Host:And then on the ground, what does that look like? What does that look like for people in the region? And then how does it look like for people beyond?
Rodrigo:Yeah. So on the ground, we have we have our team working. And I would say like in Then this merged with our education program. So we have, in The US, we mostly run BESI, which is the Borderlands Aircraft Youth. So it varies from like a six week long to like a two week long paid internship for high school students.
Rodrigo:And it's paid because, again, we believe that these should be livelihoods. You're working, you're improving a place, but sometimes these kids and youth don't have the luxury of just volunteering. Volunteering is a luxury, but sometimes not everybody has the luxury of giving their time for free. So sometimes we compete for youth interns with, I mean, whatever, like fast food chain that's in town or like a grocery store with Patagonia, like the pool, the town's pool is one of our competitors for youth. So during this one, we teach young people to build them.
Rodrigo:We have a of a sister project in the Hugo Conte Sonora field course, or Borderlands field course, where we bring like early career students to learn restoration at many layers. Like, it's not just what we do. It's like we put them in contact with a lot of other projects. And from these two efforts, there has been new initiatives coming together, where like people that attend these things, so they either change their degrees and go to environmental, or they start their own project. In Mexico, there has been a couple of new non profits coming out of this field course.
Rodrigo:So people are becoming like, Oh, this is what I want to do. We have partners that have visited the work in Patagonia, and they have started programs in Africa, in Mexico, kind trying to be like, oh yeah, this idea of bringing community and restoring and really have an objective of improving the place makes sense. So it's nice when I'm talking with friends and be like, Oh no, we do exactly the same as you do. And sometimes people are like, Oh, but that's us. No, the map is huge.
Rodrigo:Right? We need And not just Borderlands. I mean, I'm pretty sure that we are somebody else. I don't care. I'm not looking to be the only ones, but we need to get way more of this.
Rodrigo:So how it looks on the ground, in the ground, we do our work, then hopefully we're inspiring others to do work. How it looks from the outside, I mean, we're seeing that people that see the work are collecting and starting their own projects with these friends in Africa, the preclaimed savannahs forever. And sometimes they send those emails, we're like working with the Maasai communities, harvesting seed, and be like, Do you have any idea how to grow this seed? We're just seeing a photo. It's like, I mean, we don't know, but you're there, so just try it.
Rodrigo:Mean, Restoration has this beautiful and daunting portion of most likely you're the first one trying some stuff sometime, which means that you will be the first one to fail on that particular item. I think for restoration, you need to be very comfortable failing and trying again. So I feel like from the ground to the community, there's a pretty well connected line with the communities that we work at. For example, in Douglas, we've been running BESI, the Portland Circle Jute program, and every year we got emails and calls from partners in Nebraska, like, Are you doing it again? Like, We'd want you back.
Rodrigo:Like, There's people interested. So we know that the people are reacting well to the programming they want to do, And yeah, we're seeing kind of like that it works.
Host:And this is the Borderlands Earth Care Youth program?
Rodrigo:Yes, and the field course in Mexico. And those programs are pretty similar, like happen in different countries. And then we have visiting groups coming from all over The States and they're learning.
Host:Yeah, you have students visiting from Boston College, the University of San Diego, the University of Wisconsin, Simmons University, Bentley University, all over. What's the best way for people interested to become involved with what you're doing?
Rodrigo:Yeah. Mean, like, first, like, if you go to our website, there's volunteer opportunities and hopefully next year we'll be increasing more kind of volunteering opportunities. And again, volunteering, it's a luxury. So if you have the time, we'll be more than thankful for you if you decide to spend that with us. Through visiting groups, like if you are somebody in a school and you want to visit us, contact us.
Rodrigo:We have some very modest dorms and camping facilities. I mean, they're decent, fancy. So we're always open doors to people that want to learn. Hopefully in the next year we can develop a more like, kind of a bigger, again, volunteer program. Right now most of our volunteer programs are in our native plant program.
Rodrigo:Work structures and all that sometimes can be risky and sometimes we work very far away. So taking volunteers and visitors to those kind of places is not as easy or, yeah, so we're, sometimes liability is bigger than or willingness to do things. So yeah, so obviously, we're doing like the programs, Borderlands Circus Youth and the field course in Mexico, we tend to have open recruitment. If somebody wants to be part of that, if you follow most of social media, you will find when it's open. And the native plant program, we produce plants and seeds, like native plants and seeds.
Rodrigo:The native plants come most often from wild harvest. So you can go to our, I mean, of what we produce is for conservation and restoration programs, but we have plants and seeds for the general public. So you can go to our website and you can access the nursery site and you can order plants and seeds. You can visit us at the nursery and you can purchase seeds from us and plants from us. The staff at the Nerve Plant Program do drop ups in most cities in Southern Arizona.
Rodrigo:I think we go as far as Scottsdale. They just did a drop off in El Paso, Texas this week, in Las Cruces. Tucson, we have drop offs every, I don't want say every month or very often, Sierra Vista. So you can buy our plants, you can join our education programs, you can show up and support. And if they want to support in any economical way, I mean, obviously we take donations as any other nonprofit.
Rodrigo:But I feel like there's a lot of ways. The other is like, you can come and learn. We offer a lot of free workshops through the year. And then if you come with us, learn for free, and then you go back home and start doing things, that would be probably the most amazing things that we can achieve together. I feel like for us, seeing more people doing things, it's like the best.
Rodrigo:Kind of in a way, the best review for work is if you come and then after that you call me and be like, I started another organization and I want to improve this planet, I'm like, yes. Doesn't matter if it's not like, you're not giving me anything, you're starting something else. It's like, that's perfect. We need more. So that's why take this conversation of nonprofit competition.
Rodrigo:I was like, I wish there was not enough work for us to do that. Now we are competing for a site or for a place. There's so much to do. Definitely, yeah, the best way that people can engage with us, come, learn, talk to us, and then hopefully you go and do more.
Host:Great. And that's a way to scale your efforts. Yeah.
Rodrigo:Exactly.
Host:And then for other folks, what would be your message to producers, developers, agriculture industry, mining to make their own difference?
Rodrigo:Yeah. Well, I mean, that is that is a that is that is a great question because I think the message is and we started the conversation about the economy in the morning. And I would say one of the requests is to see the systems in a complete way because we cannot afford we cannot keep treating ecosystems, natural systems as externalities toward economical activities. So, again, it's not about saving the world anymore. It's about keeping ourselves here.
Rodrigo:And I can like invest back into the systems where we are taking from. And everybody that has a savings account understand that, but I don't know why we don't apply to our other home. Right? So it's like if you assume that the ATM, it's endless and you just keep distracting, you learn pretty quickly that that's not the case. Like, naturally you'll get penalties.
Rodrigo:But we keep treating nature and the natural resources as endless and bountiful, and you can just keep taking. And we need to pay attention and realize that that's not the case anymore. It was, it never was that. We behaved like it. It worked for some time, but we're at a point where like, that's not true anymore.
Rodrigo:It has never been true. So, yeah, gotta invest back. And really, again, going back to this empathy stage that I feel like we're losing more and more is like think beyond the immediate, correct, yeah, think beyond the immediate benefits of what you are doing, I think that goes to everybody of both, like, do you really want that new car? Do you really need that new car? Do you understand the cost of that new car beyond what it's going to cost you monetarily?
Rodrigo:Is that development, like, can you do it better? Are there better ways to develop this place? Are there better systems to have? Is how this mining company could be the best mining company ever. I mean, most likely it's going to happen.
Rodrigo:So how we make this the best mine in the world in relationship to how it engage with ecosystems around. So that's a very complicated conversation, but at the same time, shouldn't be, right? It's like thinking the consequences of what you are doing and don't take it all. I mean, in a way, it's like this idea of leave things behind for others, including the plants, animals, the insects, and the other people that will come eventually. We're at this moment of taking hold, and then what?
Rodrigo:Kinda like what's left. So so that's a very complicated answer.
Host:Yeah. Yeah. Maybe we can make it smaller. So and you said everyone can be part of something, and in two hours, we can make a change. But what about the case of a farmer or a rancher?
Host:What can they start doing today or tomorrow to make an impact that they will benefit from? They will grow their own personal savings account, Yeah. As you
Rodrigo:I mean, it's always complicated to give big recommendations because you never know what is people's situations, right? Cattle is like, Oh, maybe it reduced. I used to grow cattle. And when a person's like, Oh, just reduce your hair, and then you have cows, you realize, Well, it's not that easy. There's a lot of details of reducing my hair.
Rodrigo:It's like, I've been building this hair for the last twenty five years to get the right genetics, and you wanted me to get rid of her. But I feel like I would start with this idea of like I feel like a lot of times it goes back to the empathy activation, kind of like look around and realize that you're not the only one here. And there will be farmers that are having the worst time, and they'll be like, Dude, I am the only one here right now because my family is going through a bad time. But in general, it's like, it's not the reason for the take. Think how much you can leave behind for others.
Rodrigo:The other thing is like, there's pretty interesting groups and advisory opportunities of people that are trying to accomplish better results, like more sustainable grazing practices, regenerative ranching and farming practices. So there are ways to find other potential friends that are already engaging in these practices, and just start opening your mind. I feel like I don't want to tell people what to do, but if I can suggest them to look around and see what other possibilities are and bring this idea to the forefront of like, this is not just for me. Whatever I do in my branch, in development that I'm releasing from the forest service or BLM, impact my community, impact ecosystems, impact the deer, the quail, the jaguars. Taking Like, kind of the responsibility for everything else that depends on your actions, that is, I mean, at least for me, that always is very powerful, very daunting, and very exciting.
Rodrigo:When you're like, this is not I mean, even sometimes driving is like all the bugs that I'm killing just to go from here to Patagonia, the carbon emissions that my car is putting for me to go to my office in Patagonia. When you start thinking like it's not just about you, I feel like that helps you to change some behaviors, trying to do better, others like you're like, well, that's what I have to do. But yeah, look around, engage that empathy, and make friends and explore other possibilities.
Host:We have talked a bit about economy and money. I imagine funding conservation projects can provide quite a challenge. How does your organization overcome this obstacle? And what advice do you have for other efforts learning to handle this?
Rodrigo:Yeah, so funding is always like the tricky question. So Borderlands, as of today, it can be funded through federal programs, which again, I think it makes all the sense, right? Like, we pay taxes, or taxes should go to activities that benefit all of us, which I truly believe that conservation and restoration practices are one of those things that I'm happy my taxes pay for. And talking about responsibilities, I think it's as we maintain roads, we should maintain our ecosystems. So federal funding and state funding, it's a big portion of how we operate.
Rodrigo:And a lot of organizations in the country doing restoration and hands on work, it's mostly true for adorables that federal and state funding, it's one of the most important revenue streams for hands on work. There, I believe we have a What that word? Philanthropy from $1 to $100,000 or whatever. Philanthropy is part of it, either to private foundations, private donors, anonymous donors, so like a second layer of funding. And then the third one, going back to the idea of creating an economy, it's fee for service program.
Rodrigo:So the nursery with the native plant program, we offer plants and seeds for sale. And then we offer hydroseeding services where we can go and hydroseed acres and acres of land with curated native seeds. There's ways that we can be hired by third party, whoever, as long as it fits the mission of bringing native plants to the world, like we load the hydroseeder and find you and bring places back. The watershed team, it's for hire too. You can hire them to work in your particular place outside of grants and federal government funding.
Rodrigo:If you have a piece of land that you want us to work on and you have the resources to pay for it, we do it. We're actually pretty affordable for what we do. And then the education program, obviously we have like all trades, but then when we got all these schools visiting, we charge a fee for a day to come. It's again, nothing is crazy expensive. So pretty much at the end we have grants and contracts with state and federal government, philanthropy, and then fee for service.
Rodrigo:So that's how we fund our activities. And that's pretty common among nonprofits. You need to kind of diversify how your higher income happens because, again, nonprofits being kind of like this, In a way, nonprofits occupy this space where activities that the government no longer do or don't have the capacity to do it at scale, or private companies don't do anymore. That's why when I think of developers and mining companies and everybody investing back, it's like not only to nonprofit, but like really bring that kind of activities as part of their everyday operations, right? It's like more funding, more potential for, to do good with like more that is restrictive.
Host:Great. Thanks for the answer. So for anybody listening in Southern Arizona that wants to improve their land quality and water quality, they can hire your watershed team to come in and
Rodrigo:do work. They can they can hire us, and there are stuff that can happen to us. Like, we can we can meet, and maybe we can figure out how to put a project together and and and get funding for them. Like, sometimes when the right partners come together, you can have an attractive project to be funded by somebody else. So you never know if anybody has questions to reach out to us, or in our website, there's all the ways to find those.
Rodrigo:Sometimes we're busy, but we're always trying to help as much as we can. So if we don't answer right away, just be patient, we will answer.
Host:Yeah. And that's borderlandsrestoration.org. Yes. I know we're running short on time. I really wanted to go into more detail on things such as your plant restoration and your nursery, your earth care center, wildlife preserve and wildlife corridors and talking more about your farm.
Host:Maybe perhaps in the future, you and I or other people on your team can sit down and talk about But I would like to ask you before we close, what is a significant lesson that you have learned in your career in conservation? And what advice do you have for people listening who seek to get into conservation work at a professional level?
Rodrigo:Okay, that's an awesome question. Biggest lesson is that it never ends. What we are trying to do as conservationists and preservation professionals, it's pretty big, so there's no end of work, which means that you need to learn to pace yourself, which sometimes I'm not the best example of Collect. I feel like a lot of, if not everybody that is in this world, we have the urge to improve because we're seeing what is going on around us. So in a way, finding the way to balance the urge, the passion, and your health, and your sanity, Probably that is like, I mean, I'm 45 now.
Rodrigo:I mean, some days I stroll to keep that functioning because again, this is a work of passion, right? Like nonprofits that I really like to remember that we are a mission driven organization. If you are a company, you are like a profit driven organization. So when you have a whole ship of passionate people working towards a common goal that is beyond money, it's pretty beautiful. It's very powerful because you show up fully, right?
Rodrigo:Because this is your passion. At the same time, and this is very common in the nonprofit sector, is that you can give everything. And sometimes it's hard to keep the balance on your health. You cannot give all because then you have nothing for yourself. So connect.
Rodrigo:How you last and how you stay engaged. And it's a practice where you deal with a lot of sadness because you're seeing the state of where things are. And I mean, what I really like about restoration and conservation is that you have kind like the sadness and the pressure and the urge, but at the same time you see that there's results and there's improvements and you're moving little by little, sometimes way too slow, but like you're going somewhere. So I think like balancing how much you give in the sector. I am a true believer that nonprofits, we need to do a better job at offering good salaries and good benefits to people.
Rodrigo:Again, if we keep treating our work as a proficient offering, First, people don't last. Second, people don't want to do this. Me now as a leader of an organization, I feel like I have a big responsibility to find the ways to offer good benefits, good work conditions. Need to be able to keep people for the long run because we have to connect. Again, the task is big, yes, I think there's, I mean, there's a lot of learnings, but I feel like those two are some of my deepest ones because sometimes I challenge them.
Rodrigo:I have a hard time, like if somebody shows up and is like, Oh, why did we start this really good project? Most likely I'm going to say yes. And then I go home and it's like, Oh my God, when am going to do this? I don't have time. And then you figure out how you do it, but then you're giving, giving, giving, giving.
Rodrigo:So my staff, I have amazing people working at Borderlands, and I can see that the passion is so big that they don't know how to stop. And sometimes it's Sunday and they're working, and you're like, maybe you can keep yourself healthy. That's a humongous challenge. For the people that want to get into conservation restoration, I mean, now it's hard. I mean, if you look at the job market today, it's not the most exciting job market.
Rodrigo:It's pretty tight. So try to be the best you can. Be patient, be patient with yourself. And again, try to manage the passion and the urge and be creative, approach others. I mean, sometimes you never know who you're going to meet and what can start from nothing.
Rodrigo:At the same time, I feel like I have had the luck and the luxury to have a pretty decent career as of today. So I think there's ways to be a professional in this particular career path. And I feel like we need to work together to create the organizations, the paychecks, the benefits to keep people and to really become part of the economy. Right? And going back to that, it's like, I want to do conservation, but nobody heard me.
Rodrigo:It's like, yeah, because we haven't been able to put this as part of the economy. It's not Philanthropy is great, but we should not rely only in philanthropy because philanthropy can only do so much. Right? Like, we need to bring some of what we do to be like, this is fundamental for our species, civilizational continuation and success. So we should stop seeing it as like this for love kind of practice.
Rodrigo:But he'll take time. Great.
Host:Thanks. I appreciate your wisdom. Awesome to get to speak with you. And should the opportunity present, I'd love to chat again and follow chat with one of your team.
Rodrigo:Oh yeah, we're going to have you there. That'd be awesome. Love to come visit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, honestly, like if you have time to go, we're always happy to talk with new friends and make new friends and to come out on these things.
Host:Great, expect to see me there. Yes. Thank you so much.