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The Moonshots Podcast goes behind the scenes of the world's greatest superstars, thinkers and entrepreneurs to discover the secrets to their success. We deconstruct their success from mindset to daily habits so that we can apply it to our lives. Join us as we 'learn out loud' from Elon Musk, Brene Brown to emerging talents like David Goggins.
[Music]
hello and welcome to the moonshots
podcast it's a sensational episode 77
I know co-host might Parsons and as
always the man with a plan to man
himself my Pearson Freeland good morning
mark
good morning Mike it is a pretty soggy
day in Sydney isn't it it's a very
autumnal almost winter day soggy so he
is indeed the right word but there's
nothing soggy about the thinking of Adam
grant is there ah I tell you what this
series you know it's starting with give
and take then into originals and now
into option B it's just been a great one
I've enjoyed delving into Adam grants
work so so much what about you Mike I I
must say that I've known of Adam and his
work for some time but having got into
it I'm not sure if I can say he's quite
a simon Sinek level but he is a real
contender in terms of presenting
thinking that we can we can really use I
love this idea of the give-and-take
which was the first part of series and
being far more humble and how we go out
to the world and to to help others and
then I thought it was super inspiring
originals the previous show but really
really thought about how to think
differently how to maybe be a bit
contrarian and how it's a real habit
that you have to build I thought that
was fantastic but today we go into
option B which he co-wrote with show
Sandberg of Facebook and it is it's a
really hefty one I think this this
package comes labelled with heavy duty
don't you think it does like this this
book more so than the others is just
very very personal
it's obviously you know supplemented
with lots and lots of Adam grants dr.
Adam grants excellent data nor the
research that he's done but it's really
really touching it's very very personal
and very very open and like you say it
should probably come with a little bit
of her a1 you do get into the book it's
it can be quite challenging and quite
emotional hmm so I think I think the way
to frame what's to come on this show is
we're going to get into into this idea
of being resilient which seems quite
appropriate since we've all been
quarantine and stuck at home and dealing
with that whole transition but you know
resilience really starts by step number
one is facing up to adversity and not
running away from it and not running
away from your problems but facing them
and building that resilience because if
you do that there's so many good things
for film and joy happiness all that good
stuff if you can follow this advice from
Adam grant and we're going to not only
show you how to get tough get in the
ring with resilience with adversity and
give it a some resilient knock around
but we're also going to show how you can
become a leader in how you can transform
the people around you so it is going to
be an action-packed show so we've got
lots of great clips for the third and
final part of our Adam grant series but
before we go there mark we have a very
special announcement we've achieved a
very special hallmark for the show how
many ratings and reviews have we reached
but let me let me just pull out the
trumpet I want to thank everybody we
have reached the 100 ratings and reviews
mark woohoo that is pretty damn awesome
a huge thank you to all of you listening
to the show
this means that across all the different
podcast apps and software and all those
gadgets we have been reviewed and rated
now over a hundred times
and is a key way to new people
discovering the show so we're incredibly
grateful for people doing that and if
you're listening to this and thinking
actually Mike and Mark they're not too
shabby
they're not too bad well then just jump
into your software that you're listening
to this show on and leave a little
rating a review
send us your heart your thumbs up
whatever you got for us we'll take it
and we we certainly love to hear as well
people's feedback and suggestions
Adam grad in fact was a suggestion from
you our listeners so we should probably
dig into the archives Mike and find out
which listener sent us that email you're
I'm so
note to self there but who was the
person that got us across the hundred
mark well I'm going to claim it is mr.
Rathman sag from Germany who left us a
very very kind review the other day and
I'm gonna give him or her the the award
I think the medal ascent area Centurion
award exactly exactly
nice and you know look the reason why
this is so important for you mark and
all of our listeners is we catapulted
through these ratings and reviews we now
hit top hundred charts in Canada Austria
Poland Portugal Argentina Singapore and
of course Uganda so they're all new
listeners to the show we welcome all of
you and we hope that you can enjoy
learning from innovators which is really
at the heart of what we do here at the
moonshots I am just as we've been
talking as well I did do a little bit of
research just into the archive to find
out our very very helpful and attentive
listener who did suggest Adam Gro yeah
who was it it was Miss Melanie Bordeaux
from Belgium
thank you so much this
fantastic go you Belgium i'ts great beer
great waffles all Belgium nationals are
welcome on this show with great
suggestions boy I used to live right
next to Belgium when I was living in the
Netherlands and I was very fond of
heading down to blue and Brussels
wonderful part of the world and what's
another part of the world mark that
people can go to if they're thinking I'd
love to get into the archives of
moonshots it is a great segue by the way
his moonshots dot IO everybody can go
and find all of our archived shows
everything is on there all 76 previous
episodes launching over the last couple
of years you can also see a peek of some
of the future shows that we're thinking
about covering again we're always always
open to submissions like Melanie's with
any suggested topics and innovators we
love to hear from our listeners what
they would like us to to delve into you
can also reach out to us at hello at
moonshot IO every email is is read and
responded to so please do get in touch
if you like and again ratings and
reviews we read all of those too so no
matter what your we do method of contact
we will get the message so please stay
absolutely absolutely all right with no
further ado Matt let's catapult
ourselves let's throw ourselves into the
book option B which Adam grant wrote
with Sheryl Sandberg we're going to open
it up with a big kind of thematic
opening clip where you'll also get to
hear from Sheryl herself so let's dive
into the world of facing adversity two
years ago I lost my husband Dave
unexpectedly which is an unimaginable
thing to live through
it felt like I was sucked into a void
like I couldn't quite breathe or sink I
didn't think I was gonna get through it
and I was even more worried about
getting my children through it I could
barely get through it myself let alone
get my two children through this
we can't control what happens to us but
we do have some influence over how we
respond to the events and hardships in
our lives what Adam gave me were
specific things I could do we wanted to
write a book that would combine her
insights with the best evidence but also
with other people's stories becoming
paralyzed was something it was written
on by a week at a glance you know on my
18th birthday I was sent to prison
sexual abuse led to wanting to end my
life when my mom was wigged out on drugs
you know I was pretty much raising my
brothers and sisters we all faced
challenges and some of them are big and
huge and traumatic and some of them are
the daily challenges but we need
resilience for all of it
resilience is not a fixed personality
trait it's a lifelong project
a few weeks after Dave died there was a
father-son activity our friend Phil and
I were talking about who should do it I
said okay well that's good but like I
want Dave I want Dave to go with our son
and he said option a is not available so
let's just kick the out of option B
when you don't have an option when it's
totally taken away from you forever
you go to option B I discovered with
many many people discovered you have a
lot more grip that you think you do I've
got nothing to lose in trying to leave
the biggest life I can asking for help
is not a sign of weakness it is a sign
of strength to understand when you need
help in some way we're all living option
B and the idea is how do we make the
very most of it hmm
it's a very very honest powerful trailer
to the book I think there's a lot of
amazing stories within the book that we
can take you know lessons from the the
key thing that comes to me after
listening to that clip actually is this
idea that Adam as well as the the
individuals he's he's you know
interviewed for the book which is that
challenges come in all shapes and sizes
and we shouldn't you know think less of
ourselves if we are responding to a
challenge that might seem a little bit
less significant than a loved one
passing away for example you know this
idea of dealing with grief and
challenges it's as Adam says it's not a
fixed rate you you don't have complete
control over everything and this idea
that is up to us to take that
alternative option and it's up to us
about how we can react and respond to
that that moment that challenge that
speed bump perhaps is is really where it
where it comes through I think what do
you think Mike I really like the fact
that he what they work Cheryl and Adam
set us up for here is look you don't
control everything around you and you
whether it's big or small you're gonna
face adversity so what Adam is really
doing is challenging us to build that
resilience muscle because it's the same
thing big or small it's the same
resilience muscle that you flex and I
love the fact that there was this little
sample a little clip in there of a guy
saying you have a lot more
grit than you think mmm and I think this
is really important when you are facing
adversity and you think you can't beat
it you will be amazed at the resilience
that lays within us and so if you can
find that as a reflex continuously I
think it sets you up to go and do great
things to have not only just a better
day but to be the very best version of
yourself and I think this book is
perfect for anyone looking to get over
something get through something or to
just be more resilient overall and find
the good things that happen when you are
resilient now what's interesting mark is
that this is not just an individual
activity in fact a big part of finding
your own resilience overcoming maybe
wory Oriya anxiety is actually not only
doing it on your own but doing it with
others and I think this is where the
idea is now gonna start to expanse so
let's have a listen to Adam talking
about sort of building collective
resilience and how that starts with
helping others you know I think if I had
to I've had to guess on what what
affected me the most the first thing I
would say is it it's just it's baked
into the way that I see the world and
sometimes I don't even realize it so you
know we finish writing this whole book
about resilience yeah and yeah lo and
behold it turns out the the single
biggest thing I learned about resilience
is that we find resilience through
others depending on us yeah right when
when when we know that others need us we
find strength we didn't know we have and
I kind of already knew that but it never
occurred to me to say that in the
context of resilience right yes and I
think it's just it's it's a fundamental
truth of human nature right that that
that purpose of meaning comes through
you know the the time you spend serving
other people contributing to others
being there for others I guess in my
life what would impress then on me more
than anything else was was probably a
few things one was I had a grandmother
who was just beyond altruistic
I remember once my mom was hoping to go
and exercise and there was a massive
snowstorm much worse than today here
this is like you know the worst of
Michigan snow I think we had two feet
and my grandmother did a 15-minute drive
that took her two hours and 45 minutes
to get to our house so that my mom could
go exercise and you know she was just
doing those kinds of things all the time
and I think when you're surrounded by
those kinds of role models there are two
things that happen one is that you
become inspired to want to be like that
yeah and the other is you know and I
think I repeatedly came across people
who operated that way I had my first
diving coach errick best lived that way
he volunteered nine months a year and
and coached me for free out of this
season just because you know he wanted
to see me succeed and he really enjoyed
that role and he said I will always put
in the same amount of time that you put
in and you know you when people when
people are that giving right it just it
makes a mark and you know you start to
think well I guess I thought I had was I
I think the most meaningful thing that I
could do with my life is to try to pay
that forward pay it forward that's it's
a great clip because you're getting a
sneak peek actually into some of Adam
grants foundation you know you hearing a
little bit about what it inspired him
which which i think is really really
powerful this idea that his diving
teacher and you know trainer put in the
time to to always always dedicate the
same amount of time to go with Adam and
and you know commit himself to it he's
nice and I like this idea that Adam
would be inspired by the trainer taking
the time out of his day to to do the
same and that's where that strength
comes so no matter how tired you're
feeling no matter how you know down or
distracted maybe you are once you start
looking at those around you and who's
trying to help you you do find you know
strength from that you do find
resilience from that and as Adam says
you know this idea of purpose and
meaning from other people is very very
significant
cept but actually when you do think
about it
in a proactive way right what am i
struggling with okay maybe it's as
simple as me asking for help or maybe
it's as simple as me mm-hmm
you know saying an idea out loud I I
think that's you know it can be boiled
right down to its its simplest form yeah
the the the idea that I think you know
the funny thing is he was talking I
totally related to it from what you see
when people exercise together when they
go for a walk or they jog together it's
this mutual dependency mate makes them
resilient and they get out there and
they go work out that's why I work out
buddy is always such a good idea if you
maybe motivation for working out it
doesn't come naturally get a workout
buddy if you're facing challenges at
work share it with a buddy I think the
other thing it's it's sort of like it's
a team sport resilience but what's quite
interesting is we often carry these
burdens and keep them to ourselves like
things that really worry you it's it's
quite unusual to see people really
proactively sharing them yeah you can
obviously see that it that you know
sharing a burden and helping others
turning resilience into a team sport is
like makes total sense the interesting
things the things that really bother us
and I suicune myself as well big time is
I tend to carry that burden on my own
shoulders and keep it to myself so I
guess what advice do you have for me
mark how do I turn this more into a team
sport rather than bottling and all up
inside it's an area that I was really
really hoping that we would obviously
delve into today because you're you're
totally right a lot of the time we do
feel as though we're carrying the world
on our shoulders and actually I have a
theory that because of that in your mind
you know how we've discussed in a
previous show this idea of stress gets
focused into your shoulders into your
back
and you know you can almost feel it I
have a theory was if you are convincing
yourself no no this is only for me to
carry your body responds accordingly so
if you if your brain and your mindset is
I'm carrying the world by myself then
your body will start feeling tired
because it is carrying the world by
itself so my advice is get into a habit
of recognizing I think it starts with
recognition so I'm exactly the same I
tend to keep a lot of things you know
cards to your chest so it so to speak
but I think when you recognize yourself
feeling either a little bit overwhelmed
or maybe you're questioning a decision
or a whether something is an opportunity
or a or a challenge perhaps it's
recognizing that as a moment when you
can let somebody in and through you know
practice of saying things out loud to
other people I think it becomes a little
bit easier I certainly struggled with it
when I was a lot younger I actually had
dreams where my my dreams were you know
tell me no mark you've got to say
something out loud you know you've got
to talk about something with somebody
else so I I think once you start seeing
you know those physical you know
milestones that's the opportunity to to
say right here I'm gonna call that time
I'm gonna go and talk to somebody else
because a problem shared shared is a
problem halved and so it's so true and I
think that if we were that if we want to
kind of frame the first huge learning I
think it is in order to face adversity
to know that it is a team sport and that
for all of our listeners I am sure there
are things that bring you happiness joy
fulfillment in your life and if you're
human you'll also have some things kind
of stressing you out too and I think the
learning in this is
and is encouraging us to find someone to
to share that with someone where you can
tell what's on your mind but the other
thing is and what we're gonna get to
later in the show is that you can
actually lead your way out by helping
others first and that's just another
gift it's like the Adam grant gift that
just keeps on giving but I don't want to
steal the future clips look so now we
get to this point don't we mark where
we're in the crosshairs are facing
adversity and building resilience you
know Adam has has primed us we know it's
a collective approach it's not the world
on my shoulders approach and the moment
that I think we really see adversity
forcing us to make a choice for
resilience or not it's when a crisis
hits when you know what hits the fan
this is the moment that we all need to
kind of get ourselves out and I think we
all face some matter of crises but I
think it's this is the moment because I
think our default is often to avoid a
crisis or not acknowledge it because we
might look bad or we might fear the
outcome but I think Adam grant might
have something to teach us here don't
you moe
I do this is the next clip is one of my
favorites from the Adam grant series
actually because it really really does
speak to me this this clip is all as you
just been saying right it's hit the fan
when crisis is around it is up to us to
control how we respond to it and if we
can manage it and think about how we
change that pressure we can actually use
it to enhance the way that we work and
our creativity crises tend to go in two
directions one is that they shut down
creativity the other is that they
open it up and I think a lot of that
depends on how the crisis gets framed so
when crisis hits people usually get
nervous and the thing they try to do is
they try to calm down and that actually
doesn't work if you give people the
instruction to calm them down when
they're under serious stress or pressure
it has no effect on their emotional
states whatsoever and sometimes it makes
them even more anxious because they try
to calm down and they can't do it
because they're feeling so much intense
emotion and then they get anxious about
feeling anxious this is for their meta
anxious and that tends to lead to a
state that researchers call threat
rigidity where they narrow their
thinking and their field of vision and
they just focus on how do I protect my
job how do I make sure that you know
that I've survived this crisis the way
that you open things up in crisis is you
start by having people think about not
how they can calm down but how they can
get excited and the great thing about
about excitement is just like any
anxiety it's a high intensity emotion
and just like anxiety it also involves
uncertainty right you feel anxious when
you're not sure what's gonna happen you
also feel excited when you're not sure
what's gonna happen and so oftentimes
what you can do is you can imagine yes
like a crisis hits there are reasons to
be afraid there are also reasons to be
excited or hopeful about a you know a
better outcome and as you start to
generate reasons why this might be an
exciting opportunity people are much
more likely to reframe crisis as a
chance to think creatively a lot of
people struggle with performing under
pressure and I think I've learned a lot
from the research on this about
optimists and what are called defensive
pessimists so think about the last time
you took a big exam or test about a week
beforehand optimists we'll envision the
perfect outcome and then they'll get
really excited and then that motivates
them to study and they do really well on
the tests defensive pessimists have a
very different experience which is about
a week and a half before the test they
wake up in the middle of the night
having had a nightmare that not only did
they fail the exam but they did so badly
that their teacher took away points on
all their previous exams because there's
no way they could have possibly now in
the material and that panic motivates
them to study and anxiety really sort of
channels all this effort and preparation
and what's interesting is by the time
the exam comes up they actually defense
a pessimist
do just as well as Optimus and there's
only one way to sabotage the performance
of a defensive pessimist which is to
make them happy because when they're
feeling positive emotions they don't get
the anxiety that they need and they get
complacent and they don't study as hard
what I've learned from that is anxiety
can actually be a helpful motivator as
long as you experience it in advance of
the pressure situation right so if
you're gonna give a big speech or you
have to prepare for a difficult
situation ideally you get nervous ahead
of time and you know that that will
motivate you to prepare and once you're
prepared your anxiety lowers because you
know you've actually planned for a
situation like this don't freeze up in
the face of adversity that mark is the
big take out I just got he's like I mean
for me this is everything that I relate
to in this book and I hope that you and
our listeners also see that this is the
very moment this is it when you know
what hits the fan when there is a crisis
when things are not going right and
we're experiencing stress and anxiety
frame the crisis as an opportunity to
think creatively whether use the the
optimist or the best honest approach
don't worry don't freeze up don't run
away don't deny don't freeze up face it
and deliberately say how might we find a
creative solution for this to me this is
where I think I learned the most and I
am sure it feels very similar to you
like don't freeze turn it into an
opportunity to think creatively what do
you think mark yeah totally
what I've seen a lot in my career is
recommendations and insights from from
colleagues and leaders who have
encouraged me to you know try and think
different try to look at something that
is stressful or difficult as Adam is
saying think of it think of it as an
opportunity to learn
something from it it's an opportunity to
almost prove to yourself that you can
deal with it and if you can change your
mindset and think of an opportunity or
sorry as a challenge as an opportunity
to be excited I I think that's really
really powerful it actually reminds me a
little bit of when I was again a lot
younger I used to do a drama that used
to be in plays and so on school and
actually what are the real key lessons
that I remember from you know my
teachers and I think this is true for
exams I think this is true for pitches
or big projects that you have instead of
the night before thinking I'll know it's
all gonna go wrong it's putting your
mindset exactly as Adam is saying I mean
what is the perfect outcome how can I go
and achieve it and this strange
biological feeling that I'm having of
you know butterflies in the stomach
exactly excitement it's actually that
opportunity to go out and and do my
absolute best at the challenge that I
have in front of me and I think that's
really empowering so when you've had
these moments he talks about the timing
of things being very important that you
you feel this excitement or you know
nervous butterflies sufficiently before
the moment tell me about how timing
plays a role in you facing challenge
facing adversity and overcoming it being
resilient and you know not freezing up
how do you frame it as an opportunity to
be creative tell me about the factor of
time because I think this this plays a
big factor in how we can succeed yeah
it's definitely a significant portion of
adam's work
he's obviously come at it in the Daito
and he's seen those two variations of
Carens especially around exam season for
me I think that from the out I think the
opportunity to identified as a perfect
opportunity challenge
to learn is when you see it on your
radar as a milestone or a deadline let's
say let's say we're doing a workshop and
we know that this is coming up we can
see it on the horizon I think the
positive way of making sure the output
is is strong and as impressive as
possible for an individual like myself
for example is to think about it ahead
of time as far ahead of time as you can
so I mean the truth is you probably
start feeling the biological mindset
aspect a little bit closer you know
whether it's in able to before but
actually I think the proactive way of
doing it and I think we'll Adam is
encouraging us to do here you know he
mentions a week and a half in advance of
an exam is to put that into our minds
you know let's say ten days ahead and
you know almost train your brain
thinking about it every single day in
that way I I see exactly what you're
saying I would actually say that this
builds on a theme that came up in at
rigea NAL's which is what I mentioned
which is the one week concept the seven
days and I feel that a lot of our
anxiety around challenge and adversity
is that we're not prepared hmm and so I
think that if you have a big thing in
your agenda a talk a deliverable
whatever it is then get yourself
organized I think what Adam was alluding
to is that if you have planned
sufficient time you're able to prepare
which gives you the capacity to move
from anxiety to excitement so for me I
can see this very vividly in both sports
and in work when I coach a rugby team
and they're well-prepared they're really
focused very enthusiastic to get out on
the pitch
the same is when I'm well-prepared I've
given more than a week to prepare a
speech I just can't wait to get out
there and share it hmm and when the
opposite happens when not everyone
turned up to training at rugby when I've
been too busy on other things and I
agreed to to a speech or a deliverable
that's now turning out very hard for me
to make the time for then things can get
undone and that's when the anxiety comes
in so I think timing and preparation
pays a big role and I think it goes even
further I I love the ritual of
reflecting on my agenda every morning
and every night it's the first thing
it's the last thing of your workday I
think this is an essential way to know
what's coming to see things on your
horizon
and I think like looking at your week
view looking at your month you for
example you and I had a conversation at
the office just yesterday talking about
how we should plan vacations over the
coming period because we've got a lot of
different obligations with clients
around the world and what we're
deliberately having a conversation about
vacation even though these new projects
are starting because we need to be
rested and ready to do our best to me
this is also a big part of facing
adversity is being prepared is being not
just stuck in today but actually
starting to look over the horizon line
and thinking about tomorrow
absolutely correct you know your your
insight last week was very focused on
creating a skeleton or a formation or a
foundation of a proposal after you've
had a meeting with a client a week
before the delivery and you're writing
this this is very very reflected I think
in and even what Adams saying and I do
like the practice of looking at the
agenda at the first and last thing you
do in the day me that and that speaks
quite significantly because it's very
similar to this
concept of read ahead if you let's say
you're in an exam steel Sims and your
brain works background and therefore you
are prepared when you get to question
number 10 I think the same is true when
you're looking at your calendar or your
to-do list or your emails and you're
thinking okay well I know this is coming
up that's okay at least I am aware of it
I think awareness is for me at least
something that is a very very tangible
thing that makes me anxious the fear of
the unknown but actually when you start
your weeks in your days and you know
when you're going to be attacking
certain projects or certain things
certain obligations it is a relief
because you know oh yeah time time
blocking as we've talked about oh you're
so right like so much anxiety comes from
unknown outcomes or I'm not really
knowing the problem so you know I do my
best to attack problems with like
fearlessly just to go right at them
because you once you break them down
into their component parts that's sort
of satisfying and then you can start
working your way towards a solution but
what gangbuster first half of the show
mark we know that facing adversity is
step one then you build the resilience
and and the back of that step three is
you can find the joy the happiness and
the fulfillment and settings for right
and you know by helping others you're
helping yourself and when you find
yourself in that moment of crisis don't
freeze up frame the crisis as an
opportunity to be excited to be creative
and how you get to the solution I think
already Adam has given us a lot but
before we get into the second half the
show which is all about leadership and
you know thriving amongst the people
around you mark if people are dead
curious on the other two Adam grant
shows where should they go to find our
show notes and all our goodies we've got
show notes we've got trance
scription x' and we've got useful
hyperlinks to various different
platforms all on WWN shots dot io you'll
find all of our archive shows all 76
soon 77 when once this show goes up as
well as lots and lots like a say of
different links we had the culture deck
from Netflix last week we had how you
could identify original thinking from
Adam Graham site and there's a couple of
links that I think I'll put up from
Adams option B site as well some great
strategies to build everyday resilience
that I'll put up in the show notes as
well moonshot star dot io is the place
to be when you think in moon shots and
now we find ourselves taking a turn
having a bit of a change of pace because
now we're really going to get into this
idea of what a resilient leader really
looks like how they actually work so
we're gonna hear from the man himself
Adam grant on what it takes to become a
resilient leader one of the things they
have watched a few meters at Facebook do
is they actually share their performance
reviews openly so Carolyn Everson works
in marketing in sales I could not
believe that she did this she gets a
performance review from her boss that
tells her all the things that she could
be doing better she shares it with all
2,400 people under her and she wants
people to know that she's working to get
better she wants them to know what she's
working on so that they can give her
relevant feedback and also point out her
blind spots and she also wants to create
a culture where it's safe to admit that
you're not perfect yeah I would love to
see more leaders do that because you get
hard feedback then every day yeah and
the best way to build your resilience is
to get in the habit of saying you know
what I am struggling every single day
and I'm still getting through it and
improving working to get better what a
great technique at showing the culture
within the business you know this
authenticity and transparency that
exists it's really quite empowering to a
certain degree you know it's
she's receiving this feedback this
constructive criticism and saying to the
rest of the business 2400 people hey
guys it's okay to not be perfect we
don't expect everybody here to be
perfect even I myself these are the
comments that I've received and I'm
using this to see those blind spots but
also show how I can begin improving you
know there might be a lot of people who
also relate to some of these points oh
and that's okay I love this openness I
have to say might just like take a
moment Carolyn Davidson Head of Sales
and Marketing at Facebook 2400 people in
her team shares her performance review
unredacted to the whole organization I
have never ever seen something like that
that is pretty damn brave it makes me
feel totally inadequate oh my oh my god
Mike you're not even close to this Wow I
mean that is just radical candor and
transparency and openness yeah Wow what
do you think what do you think gave her
like take me through Carolyn's mind the
first time she did it what do you think
she was thinking okay I know there's
some negative stuff in here I'm gonna
share it with the team because mutual
resilience they're going back to you
know a couple of clips ago from Adam
grant I think or Carol see see is that
this resilience does come from it being
a team sport when you can look around
and you know maybe you're in the locker
room maybe one of your trainers is
giving some feedback to another
individual that's still pretty
empowering because even though they have
received that criticism you can reflect
on it you can listen on it but also you
can empathize with the individual
receiving it maybe you're thinking who
lucky I got away with it
maybe
but for me I think it's this mutual
sharing this opportunity of saying right
I get performance review once a year
twice a year maybe I have a often it is
but I can show my team that it is okay
to have you know maybe the odd speed
bump here and there the odd failing and
I I don't know I just feel like it's a
really interesting cultural thing to do
I mean like you say that yeah wow this
is an incredibly brave thing to do what
do you think would be the stopper for
you to to do the same yeah I mean to be
honest until we had sourced this clip
I'd never even thought of doing this
yeah I mean I mean that's how radical
this thought is and how exciting it is
I mean I've hardly really processed it
in that what I really like about what
you said is its building collective
resilience this is a great example of
the earlier clip where it's like it's a
team sport we're all in it together and
I think it I think what it does is it
transforms people in a team to know that
we're all trying to be our best selves
and we're all working on it and the the
leader is not outside of that process
they're very much part of that process
as well and I think that's so powerful I
mean it's a really exciting space to be
in is when you can actually start
talking about areas of improvement so
openly and so candidly but what's even
better about Adam grant is that he
pushes us even further in thinking about
with whom we can seek advice from and
who we can share our challenges with so
let's have a listen now to Adam grant
talking about advice for raising
resilient kids I think parents have
always cared about resilience for their
kids but we have more overprotective
parents now than we ever did in the past
we have parents who you know are kind of
hovering around like helicopters we have
parents who raise their kids
bubbles we have parents to make sure
that their kids get a trophy for every
single thing that they do and I think
because of that a lot of kids are
actually sheltered from some of the
setbacks that might actually help them
practice the skills of resilience and
one of things as a parent that I found
really powerful about this is when I'm
going through a difficulty I have
started asking my kids for advice
actually asking them well what would you
do in a situation like this allows them
to feel like I trust their judgment it
can normalize struggle for our kids and
show them look everybody has you know
setbacks and everybody faces adversity
my wife and I have three kids our
daughters are nine and six and our son
is three I was preparing for a big
speech and I was a little bit nervous
and I went to one of our daughters and I
said what should I do and she said well
the first thing you should do is you
should think about the times when you
were nervous before and it went really
well and that will you know kind of
reassure you and then you should also
find somebody in the audience who's
smiling and to you know kind of gives
you a little bit of encouragement and
you should look at that person and so a
few weeks later she had a school play to
be in and she was a little nervous and
instead of me saying oh here I know the
answer I said well what what what did
you tell me to do when I was in that
situation she remembered right away and
she was really excited for the school
play and she I even saw her kind of
looking for the person in the audience
who was beaming that she could connect
with every kid faces adversity in some
cases it's serious but there's also the
minor setbacks that are part of every
kid's life failing a test forgetting
lines in a school play being rejected
socially they need the strength to be
able to face them and say look I can get
through this and even be able to learn
from that situation the more that we can
equip our kids to face difficulties and
bounce back not just to where they were
before but stronger the better their
lives will end up be it's it's a very
sweet clip as well isn't it I think
there's there's a very key insight that
that comes through for me which is
how Adam asks his daughter for a little
bit of advice and then uses it as an
opportunity to encourage her when she
herself finds something a little bit
anxious a little bit stressful you know
not only was her point of view to Adam
very fresh and you know I love this this
this great technique of finding someone
in the audience who's smiling to
encourage you but it's also it works the
other way around and I think again this
is another good demonstration of this
collective resilience that again the
previous clip was talking about as well
as one earlier which is when you do open
up about stresses that you might be
experiencing or challenges that you
might be facing and ask for other a
points of view or fresh eyes even on
some of the work that you might be doing
find a great encouragement and strength
coming from others and this is really
something that has come through
particularly in this book which is this
mutual or group connection that can be
created in times of adversity and by
joining together whether it's with your
200 2,400 employees or whether it's your
your children or whether it's your
colleagues like you and I it is that
moment of trying to come together at
moments of stress in order to leave it
much much stronger what do you think
Mike I think it's again it's a really
interesting one I mean I as a father I
try very much to build resilience and
fortitude in my son you know he has an
incredibly demanding school life and the
one thing I just learned from Adam grin
is I can be more deliberate and asking
him for for tips and advice for myself
rather than always you know dad with all
his wisdom with all these moonshot
wisdom so that's pretty hilarious so I'm
having all sorts of breakthroughs in the
back half of the show him
no I think it's it is bang-on it's a
team sport and I think there's some sort
of flywheel effect that he's pointing
out that if we're always reminding each
other sometimes he only had to remind
his daughter of what she had told him
but sometimes as we fight the good fight
we need that reminder as we go out to
try and be the best we can be sometimes
we forget some of the very principles we
might be telling others so I think this
is it's just fantastic advice this I
love this idea that resilience is a team
sport and we can all help each other
it's fantastic
but but Adams work is not done is it
Mack no it isn't i mean just to revisit
a couple of the key things we've seen i
think that that clip we've just listened
to about his children
it actually culminates a lot of the
insights that we've seen throughout the
show so far
you know challenges come in all shapes
and sizes whether it's forgetting your
lines your school play whether it's a
big pitch or a workshop coming up or
whether it's you know mark and Mike
prepping for the next episode of
moonshots you know these are all
opportunities that can often present
themselves as obstacles but actually
it's always an opportunity like we've
said already an opportunity to grow and
an opportunity to get excited and make
the most of that opportunity and I think
you'd agree Mike that's the behavior
that we've seen in all of our moon shots
in all of our innovators isn't it this
this minimum attitude
I believe resilience is is massive Lady
Gaga Oprah Winfrey just I mean the list
goes on and on and on the the I think
what happens is when you are building
your resistance I think it sets you up
on a platform where once you see it work
a few times that you've actually been
over
overcome adversity that you're actually
building resilience it's like the gym or
like any athletic sport once you see
your body starting to get quite strong
you know doing this this this exercise
and working out is really starting to
pay dividends then that's the
reinforcement to go the next level and I
think this next and final clip from Adam
is really about us going to the next
level and it really comes in the
resilience to have the right
conversations and to seek out you know
the right arguments the right feedback
the right conversations so let's have a
listen to our last and final clip of
Adam grant talking about how to give
feedback so people can hear that you're
really trying to help over the study not
long ago which showed that highly
creative adults grew up in families
where their parents argued more not only
argued more but argued in front of their
children which as a dad I just thought
it was something you're never supposed
to do and yet the more I read about this
research the more I realized that if you
never disagree in front of your kids
they think there's one right answer to
everything whereas if they see you argue
they realize there might be multiple
perspectives on a problem and they have
to learn to think for themselves it's
not how often parents argue that affects
kids well-being it's how constructively
they argue there are a few rules for for
good arguing that I like to follow one
is to argue like you're right but listen
like you're wrong instead of arguing to
win you can argue to learn and then you
have to acknowledge when your opponent
has made a good point I think most of us
are terrible at hearing criticism think
about what happens to you physically
your shoulders start to tense your body
tightens up your heart races and you
just feel like you're being physically
attacked there's an experiment I love
about how to give criticism so that
other people really hear it and it only
takes about 19 words I'm giving you
these comments because I have very high
expectations of you and I'm confident
that you can reach them the change is a
conversation instead of saying oh no
this person's about to attack me the
person receiving the feedback says oh
this person's trying to help me I spend
a lot of time working with Sheryl
Sandberg the CEO of Facebook
and learned a lot from watching her leap
one of the things that the chair of
Sandburg noticed was that as she climbed
up the hierarchy in her career people
stopped giving her negative feedback
Sheryl's obsessed with feedback in fact
she's been told that she asks for too
much feedback as a point of feedback one
of the things that I've watched her do
in meetings is she'll open a meeting by
giving herself negative feedback out
loud saying something like I know I talk
too much in meetings and I'm trying to
work on that the other thing she often
does is to open a meeting and go through
the agenda and then go around the room
and ask for every single person to give
their viewpoint before she shares hers
so that people aren't catering you know
their their opinion to what they think
the boss wants to hear when I was 26 I
was barely out of grad school and I got
signed up to teach a half-day class on
motivation and after I committed I found
out it was gonna be generals and
Colonels in the US Air Force I was a
half their age they looked like they
were right out of the movie Top Gun I
walked in and I felt like I had to
establish my credentials you know why I
was qualified to teach the class and I
delivered the class I can tell it was
not going well and when I read the
feedback forms afterward it was even
worse than I had feared there was one
guy who wrote that there was more
knowledge in the audience than on the
podium there was another who said I
gained nothing from this session but I
trust the instructor game useful insight
it was like a dagger to the heart and I
wanted to quit but I'd already signed up
to do a second session I shifted my
approach and I walked in and I said I
know what you're all thinking right now
what could I possibly learn from a
professor who's 12 years old then I
heard a Colonel pipe up his codename was
Hawk and he said no no that's way off
base I'm pretty sure you're 13 and after
that I delivered basically a carbon copy
of the same material from before but the
feedback forms were night and day
different and I think what I learned
from that was sometimes acknowledging
our weaknesses you know sort of
admitting our limitations can actually
make us stronger mmm that's a good you
know it's a classic moon shot clip there
is so much to delve into and it's a
great way I think to to end you know
episode 77 on Adam grin for me what I
really really take from what
I'm saying here is seeing everything
from multiple perspectives no matter how
much prep you can do obviously Adam
would have prepared for that talk that
he was he was giving to the kernels
they're still occasionally going to be
moments when you'll either receive some
challenging comments or even pushback or
real criticism and I think as we've
learned from this entire episode you've
got to view that as an opportunity to
learn don't take it on don't take it too
hard and decide to quit because that
isn't necessarily the the innovator of
the moonshot personality that you know
instead of Adam saying he came back
stronger he came back with a different
approach he came back a little bit more
honestly and like he was saying you know
listening like he was wrong
and it made him better and it's a great
demonstration of learning from a real
real adverse and negative moment and
coming out of it stronger it does
doesn't it and I think like could you
imagine trying to face up for a second
day after everyone had given such poor
air force command is oh my lord but I
love this thing I think it what it was
now you have to help me here Mike a may
of written it down wrong was it argue
like you're right listen like you're
wrong correct argue like you're okay
have that conviction listen like you're
wrong have the the disability on
yourself humility exactly to know I'll
actually know you you could be right
maybe I am wrong maybe subjectivity is
getting in the way of me seeing the big
picture yeah that is super powerful now
so the question is was the crisis clip
or the of that final clip which one was
the mega clip of today which one packed
the most punch or actually it that's a
pretty tough one I think for me I think
it's got to be a draw I think it's got
to be a draw I mean the crisis clip so
that's number three halfway through I I
get a lot from that and car
just me - you know be my best self don't
limit your delivery don't put in all the
work and then struggle at the last
hurdle because of anxiety or nerves it's
the easiest way for an idea to come
across you know weaker then then you've
probably put into it you know you don't
get see Adams spending a couple years
doing lots and lots research and then
not being able to communicate it at that
final moment obviously he's well versed
in it but for me turning a challenge
into an opportunity and to get
excitement from anxiety I don't know
that's a pretty strong lesson there it
is it is and and look no matter how you
cut it we have learned to give and take
we've learned how to think originally
and now we've learned how to face
adversity and build resilience what a
series from Adam great what a show this
was as we learned that on the other side
of resilience is joy happiness and
contentment but she can only get there
through understanding this is a team
sport and when those moments start to
hit you have to not freeze that's for
sure what you don't do but you actually
have to reframe things and that a crisis
is an opportunity to get excited about a
creative new approach to any sort of
challenge and if you do that you can
actually really start the ball rolling
and when you do you'll be ready to
support others even take feedback from
your peers and from your kids and that
to me is such a wonderful gift and I
think really leads to you contributing
to the rise and to others thriving all
around you I mean mark did you expect so
much from one author what a what a
series you know thank you it is Melanie
Bordeaux for your gray recommendation I
know Mike you've obviously encountered
Adam before for me it was a fantastic
journey through all of Adams work so
thanks to Adam and all his research team
of course as well as well as Cheryl for
this episode and tests absolutely so
there you go that brings us to the end
of the Adam grant series it
has been as they say down under an
absolute cracker it's really been
wonderful and thank you to you mark and
thank you to all our listeners for
coming on the Adam grant journey but
there's plenty more gas in the tank
there's a lot more left from the team
here at moonshots because before we go
into the world of garyvee we have
decided to supplement to augment to have
a little ultra more between that we're
gonna go inspired by Michael Jordan in
the last dance we're gonna go deep I'm
Michael Jordan then Serena Williams and
then lastly Joe Rogan and then we will
catapult ourselves back into the world
of Jab Jab right hook Gary fender Chuck
there is so much learning ahead for all
of us mark thank you are you energized a
you ready to crush your day move I am
totally energized I'm ready for it let's
go nice nice I'm pretty damn ready
myself so thank you again my thank you
to all our listeners for joining us on
the final part of the Adam grant series
here on the show it's been wonderful
thank you to all of the contributions
from you all around the world it really
does make this show special so thank you
to all of you once again this is the
moonshots podcast that's a wrap