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The Sum of All Wisdom is built on a simple idea: music IS the sum of all wisdom.
More than a podcast, The Sum of All Wisdom is a community and resource platform dedicated to exploring music as a way of knowing. Music is humanity's oldest way of knowing and one of our best technologies for making meaning, and through long-form conversations with musicians, producers, writers, and cultural thinkers—along with performances, essays, and educational resources—we investigate the creative life and what it teaches us about memory, identity, creativity, community, and the human condition.
Whether you're a musician, artist, scholar, or simply someone who loves music and believes it matters, The Sum of All Wisdom is an invitation to listen more deeply: to great music, to the people who make it, and to the wisdom gained through a life devoted to music and musical worlds.
Because music is more than entertainment. It is one of humanity's most ancient ways of understanding the universe and our place in it.
Scott Catey (00:00)
Welcome to the sum of all wisdom. Some creative lives follow a straight line, and others are made of near misses and unexpected encounters and songs that just refuse to disappear. Erica Horsey is our guest today, and she began composing at six years old. Later she drew the attention of Sire Records and Sony, and eventually she founded her own label, Angel Wax. In this conversation, she reflects with striking candor on opportunity and regret and
Emotional sensitivity and the persistence required to keep making art, even when recognition takes another path.
Scott Catey (00:37)
you have had a very interesting career starting early, composing
Erika Horsey (00:40)
Yeah.
Scott Catey (00:41)
songs as a young woman in Connecticut after having moved from DC to Belgium to sort of all over the world, right? So tell me,
Erika Horsey (00:49)
Yeah!
Scott Catey (00:50)
how did it get how did you get started?
Erika Horsey (00:53)
Well, when I was six years old, I wrote my first song on an airplane. It was like, want to go back to the birdies and their song.
I want to go back to the flowers at Meyerson. I want to go back to everything I've done. And that's what I, that was my first song.
Scott Catey (01:12)
Nice. And did that
did you record it? What what instrument did you play?
Erika Horsey (01:16)
recorded
it. I probably should.
Scott Catey (01:19)
You should, yeah, pull that out.
Erika Horsey (01:21)
It had a melody to it too and it was really good. That was my inspiration by being on a plane going from one area to another play area and wanting to go back.
Scott Catey (01:35)
Yeah.
Where were you going from and to in that plane?
Erika Horsey (01:40)
think maybe I'm not sure moving New York to Rochester or something like that. I'm not sure where. I was six years old so I don't really remember.
Scott Catey (01:52)
You were six writing songs at six.
Erika Horsey (01:54)
Yeah.
Scott Catey (01:54)
Crazy. That's all right. How interesting is that?
Erika Horsey (01:56)
Yeah.
And then, so we lived in New York City for a couple of years when I was growing up. My father went to Harvard University and he got an MBA. So we lived in Massachusetts after we moved from Belgium. And maybe when I was 10 years old, we lived in Connecticut.
Scott Catey (02:23)
Wow, how about that?
Erika Horsey (02:24)
Yeah, you know Connecticut was where I was growing up. I was into high school special chorus and academically and artistically gifted and I started playing piano when I was eight years old and I started writing piano songs at 15 and my first song that I wrote at 15 was Renegade and
was really interested in building a career. I went into a Connecticut pageant and I won second place for my singing of the Carole King song, So Far Away. And you know, I did a lot in high school with music singing in the jazz band.
And then I was also accepted into Allstate Chorus for the best voices in the state of Connecticut. Then I went to college at Johns Hopkins University. I was also accepted to Peabody Conservatory for my music, for my voice.
when I was at Johns Hopkins, I...
I sang with a band and and when I graduated I won the Presidential Accommodation Award from the President of the University for my musical contribution. I was also selected to sing for Billy Bragg for the opening act.
And for the four years that I was at Johns Hopkins, I entered into a talent competition. And all four years I won both first place and second place. So I won first place for my piano compositions and second place for my guitar composition.
actually learned, and I only learned guitar at age 18. So like when I was a freshman in college, I had learned, I had taught myself how to play guitar. And I was able to win second place. That's pretty, that's pretty inspiring.
Scott Catey (04:31)
And
piano, did you teach yourself piano as well?
Erika Horsey (04:34)
Yes, I taught myself piano.
Scott Catey (04:36)
That's impressive, Erika Tell me how as a so you're ten or twelve, I think you said, when you're learning piano. How how did you teach yourself piano? What did you do to do that?
Erika Horsey (04:47)
Well, you know,
when I was eight years old, my father used to play Bach every night on the piano. And he's a finance guy. was a stockbroker.
Scott Catey (04:58)
Mm.
Erika Horsey (04:58)
So he's not really an artistic guy. He wasn't interested in me being an artist. But he just wanted me to learn piano.
and there was a piano in the living room so I played it. I just practiced. I you know, fooled around with it and wrote songs.
Scott Catey (05:15)
It's interesting. I think on every episode of this show so far, we've talked about Bach. Bach is just he's so foundational.
Erika Horsey (05:24)
Yeah, is so inspirational. I love his music.
Scott Catey (05:28)
Did you while you're teaching yourself to pi play piano, did you also teach yourself to read music?
Erika Horsey (05:34)
Well, you know, I played flute in orchestra,
Scott Catey (05:37)
Mm.
Erika Horsey (05:38)
so I knew how to read the treble clef.
Scott Catey (05:41)
I see.
Erika Horsey (05:42)
But I had a hard time with the bass clef. That was hard.
Scott Catey (05:46)
Yeah, yeah.
Erika Horsey (05:47)
But I don't really read music.
Scott Catey (05:49)
Teaching that left hand what to do, right? Yeah.
Erika Horsey (05:51)
Yeah!
Scott Catey (05:52)
also good for the guitar, so right. Learning the how to how
Erika Horsey (05:54)
Yeah!
Scott Catey (05:55)
to fret and all that.
Erika Horsey (05:57)
When I was in university freshman year, my grandmother bought me my first guitar, a 12 string Yamaha.
And actually when I would go to Peabody Conservatory to go to my classes, I would go into the music store and I would play the 12-string. I was just like so enamored with the way it sounded. And so I've always been playing the 12-string and I have that same guitar that my grandmother bought me at 18 years old. I've had it for years.
Scott Catey (06:28)
Does it still sound as good?
Erika Horsey (06:30)
Yeah!
Scott Catey (06:31)
It's aged, right? It's nice and the wood's all warm and feels good.
Erika Horsey (06:34)
Yeah.
Scott Catey (06:35)
tell me Erika so so you born in DC, lived in Belgium, came back to New York and Massachusetts for a while. At some point you also took up residence in France and you have your dual residence
Erika Horsey (06:47)
since maybe 11 years old, I was sent to Paris every summer then I went to college.
So every summer I spend my summers in Paris with my family friends. And so I've always had a deep connection to France and my first language was French. I learned it at four years old, I spoke French. Then I learned English as my second language at six years old in New York City.
Scott Catey (07:14)
about that. That's something. Do you do you compose in French or in English or both? Or what's your
Erika Horsey (07:20)
Yes, I wrote
Ma Lumiere in French, C'est N'a Pas Le Plus Mauvais and La Mitier.
Scott Catey (07:29)
Hmm. Do you have a preference for composing?
Erika Horsey (07:34)
prefer to compose in English but some songs just come out in French, you know.
Scott Catey (07:39)
Right.
Yeah, yeah.
Erika Horsey (07:40)
interesting tidbit
20 years old, I went to Paris to go for a French literature Columbia University Reed Hall program. I spent the summer in Paris and I lived with my friends, my family friends.
I actually went to a go-see for John Paul Gaultier. And so I met a friend of mine named Mario. And he was 24 and I was 22 and he was a model. And we were both at the John Paul Gaultier go-see. John Paul Gaultier took my picture.
And then we went to a party. He invited me to a party afterwards.
Scott Catey (08:33)
Mm-hmm.
Erika Horsey (08:34)
And that was my first introduction to the glamorous world of modeling and artistic actors, musicians.
I wrote a song when I went to New York called Mario. And we were never romantically involved. We were just friends. But I was so inspired by how he treated me because most of my songs were inspired by my boyfriend who was American in college.
like Hey There, and I Do, and a couple of other songs. But Mario made me feel so valued.
and I really appreciated that. he went to Japan to model and I went to New York to work on Wall Street and He also wanted me to be assigned to a major record label.
Scott Catey (09:30)
And when you're flying back to New York and you are did you write the song for Mario on the plane again or was that when you got back to New
Erika Horsey (09:36)
No, I wrote
it when I was in New York City.
Scott Catey (09:39)
Did he hear the song? Did you play it for him?
Erika Horsey (09:41)
Yes,
he flew from London to New York. I played Mario for him and he loved it.
Scott Catey (09:48)
Tell me where does the music come from? When you when the so for two questions. One is sort of how how does how does the idea for a song come to you? And then how do you shape that song? And the second question is, do you write music first or lyrics first?
Erika Horsey (10:07)
Usually I write the lyrics. Well, sometimes I just write the music and the lyrics come afterwards. Sometimes
Scott Catey (10:14)
Mm.
Erika Horsey (10:15)
I write the lyrics first and then the music comes afterwards.
Scott Catey (10:18)
Mm.
Erika Horsey (10:19)
my inspiration is usually being the person who sees what is going through another person. So like,
Crocodile Tears was inspired by someone I met on the bus. She was abused by her boyfriend and so he shot her in the head and she had such a positive attitude.
She was amazing. And I was so inspired, I had to write it into a song. So I first wrote the lyrics, and then I put the guitar song.
I was signed to Sire Records with that song, Crocodile Tears and Empty Bottle.
Scott Catey (10:57)
tell me about a little bit about at Johns Hopkins I think you studied F French was your major and then
Erika Horsey (11:03)
Yes.
Scott Catey (11:03)
music obviously at the Peabody Conservatory. But tell
Tell me about your voice instruction.
Erika Horsey (11:10)
Well, you know, never really, everything with me is really raw, just basic instinctual talent.
Scott Catey (11:18)
Mm
Erika Horsey (11:18)
I never really had voice lessons.
the voice that I had in Peabody wasn't really lessons. It was just listening to me sing and critiquing it.
Scott Catey (11:30)
the reason I ask Erika is I my my first major when I was a a younger man was music and I was a vocalist also. And I studied with a guy named Pat Williams and he was primarily an opera singer and so I my vocal training was all operatic and his you know his repertoire was that. And I never quite felt like he and I meshed well.
I was I like I didn't really like opera at the time. I've grown to like it, but I was for me it was not really a home. I was much more of a choral you know, group singer. I I always felt like I I missed something in my in my training.
And that's a kind of a regret for me, right? I never I I I never explored I I guess fully what what he could have done for me. So, you know, looking back over the years I have that kind of regret for myself.
Erika Horsey (12:30)
I feel that too because when I was 24, I met Robert De Niro. He had a mutual friend of mine who was an artist in Tribeca. And we were both at the opening and we were just passing in the doors. And I told him that I really liked the TV show that he was promoting that had good music on it. And he said, oh, really?
And I said, I'm a singer-songwriter and I really like, I really appreciate it. And he said, give me a tape. So I sent him my tape and that was a missed opportunity. I understand what you mean about missed opportunities because he sent it to an A &R rep at Sony.
Scott Catey (13:14)
Mm.
Erika Horsey (13:15)
The Sony A &R rep called me in the morning.
At the time I was living on Park Avenue with a friend of mine. And the Sony rep called me at 9 o'clock in the morning on a Monday and she said, I love your music. So she came and saw me play at Tribeca at a cafe. And she gave me her home phone number. And I never called.
I thought that she, if she was really interested in me, she would assign me on the spot. And it was so stupid. You know, I could have had a really good connected career.
Scott Catey (13:52)
Yeah.
Erika Horsey (13:55)
I just,
Scott Catey (13:56)
Yes.
Erika Horsey (13:56)
I, you know, I look back at that and I regret it. You know, but I
Scott Catey (13:59)
Yeah.
Erika Horsey (14:01)
was immature and I also had some obstacles that I was dealing with that
made me interested in to write music but wasn't able to appreciate what I was given.
Scott Catey (14:18)
The obstacles, the challenges. All of us have challenges in our life. How does how do you how does the music fit into that for you? Does is that are the do you write music to to address the challenges, to feel something, to take yourself into it, to escape? How what's the relationship there, Erika?
Erika Horsey (14:36)
Well, have a... I am very sensitive emotionally.
Scott Catey (14:42)
Mm.
Erika Horsey (14:43)
And I observe everything and I take it in. Writing songs helps me process my emotions.
Scott Catey (14:50)
Mm.
Erika Horsey (14:51)
You know, it just... It takes out... You know, I used to write in my journal for maybe 20 years.
And when I songs, it's an intimate realization of what is transpiring in my life. From other people I've met, people who've had an effect on me, or just an emotional loss, like a loss like longing for something.
you know, longing for a relationship or you know, love interest or you know, just what I'm feeling, transpiring. And you know, I have this emotional sensitivity that has actually been very important in my life.
Scott Catey (15:46)
How do you know when you're writing a song, either either thinking either of the the music, the the songwriting or the l the lyrics of it, how do you know when you've got something that you want to stay with, to polish into something that's gonna be a final song?
Erika Horsey (16:03)
Well, you know, usually it comes out the first time around.
Scott Catey (16:06)
does it really tell me more?
Erika Horsey (16:08)
I don't have to work very hard, it just flows right through me. Yeah,
Scott Catey (16:12)
That's a gift. my God. Tell me more.
Erika Horsey (16:17)
I just, you know, I come up with the lyrics, I just write the lyrics as they come, and the music just happens. It just flows, the first time around it just happens.
Scott Catey (16:33)
And do you prefer writing on a piano or on guitar?
Erika Horsey (16:37)
I like both. think I... You piano was the first... I was first involved with the piano in my teens.
Scott Catey (16:45)
Mm.
Erika Horsey (16:46)
And... I think I like both of them. Maybe piano... I probably like piano better.
Scott Catey (16:54)
I see. Yeah.
Erika Horsey (16:55)
But I've written more songs. I two albums on guitar. From the Triskel to the Tiger's Eye and Truth Remains.
and only one album of piano. And that's A Slice of Dust.
Scott Catey (17:12)
And these are all you've released all of those albums on your own label, Angel Wax, right?
Erika Horsey (17:17)
Yeah, my own label.
Scott Catey (17:18)
Yeah. Tell me tell me about the label.
Erika Horsey (17:20)
was signed up to Sire, I moved to Paris.
just moved with $500 in my pocket and a friend to stay with
And I got a job
and it gave me papers, gave me a visa and papers and everything. my brother,
was living in Connecticut at the time. And he had idea that we should make my albums into...
to my own record label.
Scott Catey (17:51)
Mm-hmm.
Erika Horsey (17:52)
And it was really his inspiration that inspired me to become the first album on my record label.
Scott Catey (18:01)
Mm
Erika Horsey (18:02)
So, know, it's Angel Wax Productions, and that was in 2000.
Scott Catey (18:06)
let me ask you Erika to follow up on that. You I think Triskel to Tiger Eye was your f the first record that you released, and that was in two thousand six. So you were ahead of the streaming curve, right? Basically.
Erika Horsey (18:18)
Yeah!
Scott Catey (18:19)
But you were hitting I mean, you're starting up the label and you're releasing your first album right when all of the
shifts were happening the the digital shifts were happening in music, right? So CDs are becoming less important, they're fading out, right? LPs were nothing at that point. We're not quite to the streaming era yet, but we are to file sharing and piracy and all that. Tell me how how did you think about the music industry and how you fit into that as both a singer, songwriter, performer and somebody who's running a a label?
Erika Horsey (18:54)
Well, you know, I did it based on just what I thought needed to be done. So
I
Scott Catey (19:00)
Mm.
Erika Horsey (19:01)
wanted to release an album. And I just recorded it, put it on my label, and released it.
Scott Catey (19:11)
Mm.
Erika Horsey (19:11)
But in a way, I think I was waiting for something to come to me.
instead of
Scott Catey (19:18)
Mm-hmm.
Erika Horsey (19:19)
just applying myself and making it happen. I did make it happen, but I was waiting to be, you know, for an opportunity.
the right opportunity to become like majorly successful.
Scott Catey (19:35)
Mm-hmm.
Erika Horsey (19:36)
And since I didn't have that opportunity,
I ended up just making my own label, recording an album in 2006, recording an album in 2014.
recorded the album from 2017 in New York
Scott Catey (19:52)
That was your piano record, is that right?
Erika Horsey (19:54)
Yeah.
a slice of dust.
Scott Catey (19:55)
is is ashes to dust on that record or is that a previous
Erika Horsey (19:59)
Yeah, Ashes to Dust is on that record.
Scott Catey (20:01)
Yeah. And are you gonna play that for us today?
Erika Horsey (20:04)
Yeah, do you want me to play it you now? Yeah,
Scott Catey (20:06)
Are you ready?
Erika Horsey (20:08)
let me see. Let me turn it on.
Scott Catey (20:10)
I'd love to hear it.
Erika Horsey (20:11)
Out of the window I see the flower below
Broken glass surrounds it no room to grow
So it bleeds in the sunlight Swallowed by the seas
Wilted battle swallow into weeds
An iron castle catches fire down below
The end of the stairs there’s nowhere to run
Voices grieve silently
Ashes to Dust, except for us
Down at the station I'm running past, you are all that will remain
Down at the station I'm running past, you are all that will remain
Baby I’m running back to you
See a silver plated photograph and a memory’s past
Baby I realize now that I’m running past
Desire into your bones
Ashes to Dust, except for us
Except for us, baby
Out of the window I see the flower below
Broken glass surrounds it no room to grow
So it bleeds in the sunlight Swallowed by the seas
Wilted battle swallow into weeds
Ashes to Dust, except for us
Except for us, baby
Scott Catey (22:58)
Nice. That's great. Thanks very much, Erika. Tell
Erika Horsey (23:02)
Thank you!
Scott Catey (23:03)
me about that song. What's what's where did it come from? When did you write it? How how did you put the music? I think the motif on the piano is quite interesting. Tell me tell me about that.
Erika Horsey (23:13)
Thank you. was at a music studio
And this was in New York City and I was just practicing on the piano and it just came out.
It just came out. It wasn't really inspired by anybody in particular. I just, I just... played it.
Scott Catey (23:37)
It's lovely song. Yeah.
Erika Horsey (23:39)
Thank you.
you know, there was really, the other person who was in the studio, he said that it was like the Beatles. He said it reminded him of the Beatles.
Scott Catey (23:58)
Nice. did you record it that day? How did you it's now on the album, right? So how did it all come together to get put on the album that you released?
Erika Horsey (24:06)
I just played all my songs, just sat down and just played them all. And Ashes to Dust was one of them.
It just came out of me. I don't really know what the inspiration was because it just happened. I just wrote it.
Scott Catey (24:24)
I think my favorite I think it's it's a hard choice, Erika, but my favorite track from From Triskel to Tiger Eye is Old Man.
Erika Horsey (24:36)
Oh, you like old man?
Scott Catey (24:37)
I do like old men. I think that's a very good song.
Erika Horsey (24:40)
Yeah, great. I kind of ignored that song. That was inspired by, I was in my apartment at Johns Hopkins and I saw a homeless man across the street. I was just thinking of his life, like
But I like the fact that you like Old Man. That was actually produced by one of the spin doctors. Do you know who the spin doctors are?
Scott Catey (25:06)
I do, yeah. I used to be in radio. We used to spin the spin doctors on my radio station.
Erika Horsey (25:11)
my God, well was friends with them, Mark White and Aaron Comess I used
Scott Catey (25:14)
Yeah. Comess yeah, yeah, right. Yeah. The drummer and the guitarist.
Erika Horsey (25:18)
to work with Mark White on songs. he set up a meeting with Aaron to produce Old Man and Empty Bottle.
Scott Catey (25:29)
Nice. that's fun. What a nice connection that is. Yeah.
Erika Horsey (25:32)
Yeah, was great it great
And I also went with the spin doctors. They were doing this blues traveler on David Letterman.
Scott Catey (25:41)
Right.
Erika Horsey (25:41)
I was backstage while they were getting ready to do the interview with David Letterman And then when I left, everybody shouted, she's famous. And they were like, let's get her autographs. So I signed autographs.
Scott Catey (25:57)
Nice. That's good.
You gotta take it where you can get it, right, Erika? That's
Erika Horsey (26:01)
Yeah.
Scott Catey (26:03)
right.
Erika Horsey (26:03)
I've had a lot of opportunities for my life. I've had a very fulfilling life. I feel like if I just... I didn't take all those opportunities as far as they could go. But with all the... the myriad of opportunities, it all makes for an interesting life.
Scott Catey (26:27)
Yeah, it sure does.
Are you gonna release another record anytime soon?
Erika Horsey (26:31)
Yeah, I'm thinking of it. I have an album for fourth, a fourth album.
Scott Catey (26:37)
Mm.
Any hints about what we can expect?
Erika Horsey (26:40)
Well,
there's a couple different songs.
One of them I just wrote two weeks ago called The Essence of Me is You.
Scott Catey (26:50)
Mm.
Erika Horsey (26:51)
And it was an inspiring song. Someone that I met years ago, like 30 years ago, just touched my life in a way that I was like, God, we are like so
We're like soulmates, you know, like his soul was my soul. And
Scott Catey (27:06)
Yeah. Right.
Erika Horsey (27:09)
he was into music. He has the same music inspirations as I do and the same, experiences and people and places like CBGB's gallery and Robert De Niro and modeling. And,
know, I got back in contact with him.
just inspired me to write that song. So that song will be on the album.
Scott Catey (27:27)
tell me about your inspirations, Erika. Who do you when you find yourself listening to music or thinking about the stuff that inspires you, who who do you turn to f for other musicians?
Erika Horsey (27:38)
I like U2, Crosby, Sills, Nash & Young
Joni Mitchell Carol King, Traffic, Joe Cocker.
Scott Catey (27:49)
what's your sort of parting wisdom for people who are listening? What as a person who's made a career producing music and on a with their own record label, writing songs, tell me tell us what it is that you want to pass along.
Erika Horsey (28:03)
Go
after your dreams. Whatever you were meant to do is meant for you. and work every day for it. Practice, apply yourself and don't let anything stand in the way, not what anybody says or anybody thinks. Keep your dreams close to you and just go after them.
There's no time limit. Everything in your life happens for a reason. And if it was meant to be, it will be. So just do what you can each day or whatever you're in the present, and that will shape your future.
Scott Catey (28:44)
Good words. Words to live by.
Thanks very much, Erika. It's been a real pleasure talking with you today. And
Erika Horsey (28:51)
Thanks Scott!
Scott Catey (28:52)
I really appreciate your willingness to perform for us. That was great. Thank you so much.
Erika Horsey (28:56)
you so much for having me, I love being on the show!
Scott Catey (29:04)
And thank you for listening. If today's conversation resonated with you, I'd invite you to continue exploring it. Visit thesumofallwisdom.com for show notes, essays, transcripts, field notes, and our listening rooms, where each conversation becomes part of a larger archive of musical craft and creative wisdom.
Scott Catey (29:24)
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, following the show, leaving a review, or sharing it with someone who loves music and the people who make it. For now, I'm Scott Catey. Remember to stay curious. See you next time.