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The cost & courage of caring - stories that spark resilience.
Welcome back to the Caregiver's
Podcast.
I'm your host, Dr.
Mark Ropaleski, and you can call
me Dr.
Mark.
Today we're talking about one of
the least visible and least
understood forms of caregiving,
financial caregiving.
It often starts quietly.
You help with a bill, you answer a
question,
you try to sort out some
paperwork, and then before you
really register what's happening,
you're not just helping anymore,
you're making decisions about what
can be paid for,
what kind of care is possible, and
how to protect someone you love
when there may not be enough
money to do everything that needs
to be done.
Our guest today is Beth Pinsker.
Beth is a certified
financial planner, personal
finance journalist, market watch
columnist, and the author of My
Mother's Money, A Guide to
Financial Caregiving.
She brings both professional
expertise and lived
experience to this subject after
becoming a financial caregiver for
her own mother following
a serious illness.
Today we're talking about what
financial caregiving really is,
why families are
often unprepared for it, how money
changes the emotional dynamics
inside a family, and what
happens to one person when they're
the person who has to carry
responsibility for making
difficult
decisions for everybody else.
Beth, welcome to the Caregiver's
Podcast.
And before we begin,
please subscribe to the
Caregiver's Podcast on Apple
Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you
listen.
It's free, it just takes a second,
and it's the best way to support
the show.
Beth Pinsker, welcome to the
Caregiver's Podcast.
We're so happy you're here to join
us,
and we look forward to an amazing
discussion today.
Thank you, thanks for having me.
So in the tradition of the
podcast, we like to jump right
into things.
So Beth, tell me,
when does helping an aging parent
with money stop being just
helping, but becomes caregiving?
I think it's caregiving the whole
time.
If you are doing anything with
your aging parent,
it feels like caregiving to me.
There are little things that you
might do all along and be helpful
that way, whether it's managing
bills or taxes or even just
talking to them about the
decisions they're
making.
So right from the beginning, it
takes on a new persona.
It's interesting if that hint of a
conversation or that persona has
never existed before, and we'll
get to that in a little bit,
but how often do adult children
discover far too late that they
actually have almost no idea
what's going on with a parent's
finances until care decisions need
to be made?
Is it all of them?
I don't know.
Every single person that I talk to
seems to be caught short
at this moment in some way.
Even the ones who seem to have it
all together are at the very end
of the journey.
Their parents have dementia and
they've taken over everything, but
it didn't start
out that way.
It never starts out that way.
It's interesting because you go
through this also a lot
of times if you're a parent also.
At the same time, you're going the
other direction with your kids.
So, you know, my mom was needing
me to manage her credit card at
the same time I was letting my
kids,
you know, be authorized users on
my credit card and then get their
own credit cards when they were
old enough.
And those things sort of cross
paths and they're the same
parenting skills that you have
all along.
Like I would never just give my
kid a credit card and, you know,
tell them to spend
whatever they want in the same way
that my parent who might have a
cognitive issue and I'm worried
about looking at their credit card
bill.
No, like I'm going to have to
clean up the mess.
If something goes wrong, I need to
be on top of what everybody's
doing.
It's not an invasion of privacy.
It's good, good family skills.
It's almost like deconstructing
the sandwich generation, if you
will.
The way you described it
made me actually see that sandwich
coming apart.
So what's the conversation then
that adult children
should sort of try to have with an
aging parent before there is a
crisis, before there's a big
diagnosis, before someone is
suddenly trying to sort out
passwords, accounts, insurance
papers,
legal documents under tons of
pressure.
I think that one way to get into
this conversation, the easiest
way I've always found with older
people in my life is to ask them
for their help.
You know, at the same
time that I was helping my mom by
being her power of attorney and
her health care proxy and trustee
and
all of those things, she was
actually mine also, you know, in
reverse.
But I didn't need any help at that
particular moment.
But she was the person I had named
on all my documents.
So you can get into this
by saying, hey, mom or dad, you
know, I'm making up my will, my
trust, my plan for myself.
I'm going to
name you on all of my documents,
if that's okay with you.
What about you?
Do you have all of those
things set up?
Am I the person that, you know,
like, let's all let maybe we can
go in together and get a
bulk discount, you know?
Or you ask them, you know, I
remember long ago, granny, you
know, so-and-so
had a problem with this.
What did the family do about it?
You know, if you ran into that,
what would
you want done about it?
Or, you know, bring up neighbors,
bring up friends that, you know,
everybody
like, hears about these things,
their friends and might be
complaining to them about, you
know,
their kids being irresponsible or
them worried about passing money
on.
And when worse comes to
worse, if you run out of stories,
there's always celebrities.
It's interesting to say that.
Celebrities make these same
mistakes.
You know, Jay Leno never got a
power of attorney from his wife,
and he ended up in court having
to, you know, get guardianship
over her.
You know, the Murdochs are
in court all the time fighting
over trust.
Prince didn't have a will.
Aretha Franklin wrote out a
will by hand and somebody found it
in the couch cushions, you know?
Like, there is a celebrity
story for everything that is going
on legally in your family.
And we know about them because
they had to go
to court.
And court is public.
So the reporters and People
Magazine swarm all over them.
And, you know,
that's how we know about these
things.
But it makes for an easy
conversation.
Because if you go to your
parents and you say, hey, did you
hear about that Jay Leno case?
They're probably going to have
heard of it.
It's interesting that you build
out or facilitate that
conversation and engagement
specifically with
stories.
But what are the elements of the
care recipient's lifetime
financial blueprint and their
financial
stories that caregivers need to
understand as they take on the
role of financial caregiving?
Everyone's got a story, right?
Yeah, everybody's got a story.
The absolute must is you need the
correct permission slips, as I
call them.
You need emergency keys.
And people understand that concept
because, like, if you have parents
who are living, I bet you're going
to find a lot of people have a
spare set of keys, right?
Even if
you just have a set of keys so
your parents want you to know that
you're always welcome there.
Like,
this is your house too, right?
You grew up here, you know,
whatever.
Like, people generally have a set
of keys to wherever their parents
are living.
These legal documents are
permission slips on a different
sort of level, but they're the
same sort of thing as having an
emergency key.
They are
not handing over your control of
your life.
You're not handing over any funds.
You're saying,
if something happens to me in an
emergency, please let yourself
into the kitchen and call 911
because
I'm lying on the floor and I can't
breathe.
So if you don't have these
permission slips set up ahead of
time, you get a brick wall no from
the financial institutions and the
healthcare institutions.
If you have a problem with your
mom, your mom goes into the
hospital and you need to pay her
mortgage
and you go down to the bank and
you say, hey, bank, you know, my
mom's in the hospital.
I need to pay her
mortgage.
I need to get out $3,000.
They're going to look at you like
you're crazy.
They're going to be
like, go to the court and get a
probate order that names you
guardian.
And you're going to be like,
no, no, no.
I just, my mom says it's okay.
No, you're going to hit a brick
wall.
They're going
to say no.
They're going to send you to
court.
If you have a power of attorney
document that is
notarized and properly rendered,
they're going to have to deal with
you at some point.
They might
try to say no first, which is what
they did for me and many, many
other people.
But if you stand your
ground and you make it clear that
you're not going away and you have
a legal document, then
they're going to give you the
access that you need.
And the answer won't be no.
If you show up with
an outdated document, one from a
different state, one that wasn't
properly signed and notarized,
they're going to send you away.
But you need those permission
slips.
So the same thing,
there are two sides to it.
You need the financial side and
you need the healthcare side.
Because if a decision needs to be
made, somebody needs to have the
authority to make it.
And this
goes, you know, for everybody over
the age of 18.
My son was home, was, was at
college and I wanted to
make an appointment for him with a
doctor for when he got home.
Now, you know, 19 year olds are
not good
at this sort of thing.
So I call up the doctor and I say,
hey, you know, I need to make an
appointment.
And they said, oh, I see here that
your son is 19.
You can't make an appointment for
him.
He's a legal adult.
I'll need a healthcare proxy if
you want to make an adult for him,
make an appointment for him.
So from that moment, when a kid
turns 18, until you die,
you need a healthcare proxy so
that somebody can make decisions
for you.
Until you die, you need some kind
of financial document that says
the same thing.
Then once you
die, those things are useless.
You throw them away, they're
pieces of paper, can't use them
anymore.
That's when you need a will or a
trust, beneficiary designations
and those sorts of things for
after
death.
You have a will in your hand and
you're still alive, it's nothing,
right?
You can't use a
will while you're still living,
right?
So, you know, what's gonna, I
don't understand how people
like they have a will, but they
don't have a power of attorney.
Like if you understand that
somebody has
to act for you after you've died,
then you should understand that
you need to have somebody who can
act for you while you're still
alive, but you're sick.
But 30% of people have wills and
11% of people
have powers of attorney.
You know, that's not a lot of
people who are protected in the
case of an
emergency.
It's a very small number.
You speak of, you speak of these
permission slips or these keys,
but there's, there's something
that goes
way back and that's the
relationship with money and
finances that your loved one, your
caregiver, that
your caregiving for actually had,
that those relationships they had
with money.
And if you're
going to start taking on some
responsibility, what are the type
of questions or how do you embark
on a
discussion that involves, I'm
going to have to take over some of
your duties.
I'm going to have to make
some decisions about money to help
you.
How are you going to feel about
the, me making those decisions?
Where do you go with your loved
one to establish a safe footing,
if you will, to engage in
financial
caregiving moving forward?
A lot of that's going to depend on
the time ramp that you have and
the diagnosis and what's wrong
with the person who needs help,
right?
If it's, if it's dementia and you
catch them in a moment before
they're, uh, they're cognitively
impaired and they know it's
coming, then you can say to them,
let's go and decide together how
you want things to go.
And then I will execute it the way
you want
when you can't.
Um, and that's just an open
discussion that a lot of people
have to have with
their parents when they hit a bad
diagnosis like that.
Same thing if it's, you know, ALS
or Parkinson's
or, you know, any of the, the, the
ones where, you know, it's just,
you're, you know, you're just in
it.
Um, and you know, when that
diagnosis happens, usually you've
got loved ones sitting by your
side,
right?
The, you have to decide as a
family, okay, here's how we're
going to approach this medically.
Um, here's the help you're going
to need to live your, the rest of
your life and get whatever
treatment you need.
But here's also the financial
stuff that comes with that.
You might need help.
Um, now it's harder, um, when you
don't have a moment like that.
Um, and somebody's just declining,
um, but there's nothing really
wrong with them, you know, then
you've got to look for red flags
and,
um, the red flags, the chief red
flag to look for is, uh, you got
to look at, you got to get into
somebody's mail.
It sounds invasive, but you have
to know what they're up to.
You either have to look
in their phone, um, or you have to
look at their desk and you have to
say, are there past due notices
here?
Um, you know, look into at a
checking account statement.
Are they giving money away
when they, um, it's not that they
shouldn't be giving money away
because a lot of people like
to be generous, but like my mom,
when I looked at her bank
statements and there was
presumably nothing
wrong with her at that particular
moment, um, was giving money to
any politician who asked and she
got on lists and everybody asked.
And what you lose in your older
years is, is kind of like the
perspective of what everything
adds up to.
Um, so my mom was giving away more
money than she probably
intended to because she gave away
money on Tuesday and then gave
away money again on Thursday
without
realizing that Tuesday was not a
very long time ago.
And it was all adding up to a lot
of money.
Um,
I told the story of another, uh,
woman in my book who was a
gerontologist whose job is to
study
older populations.
She went to visit her dad and he
had a stack, a huge stack of, um,
calendars from
the various societies that he had
given money to the wildlife.
And, you know, they all give you a
calendar when you give you money.
Um, and she's like, why are there
so many of them?
You know, it's an
unusual amount of, of calendars
and then generous guy.
Yeah.
So there's nothing nefarious, but
it,
you know, my, you know, like look
for gifts to people, gifts to the
caregivers, gifts to the
cleaning lady that aren't the
regular payments.
Um, a particularly onerous red
flag is if they're
taking out money in any
non-traceable denomination.
Like if your parent suddenly buys
20 gift cards,
you need to put a stop on their,
their accounts, right?
Like that's a, that's, they're
being scammed
in some way.
Um, if they're cutting money
orders or anything that is, uh, a
cash denomination that
you can't claw back with
anti-fraud protections.
Um, and then you just got to
listen to them,
you know, like a lot of people
want shortcuts, but this is like
boots on the ground, FaceTime
conversation kind of stuff.
Are, do they look tired?
You know, are they complaining
about not
sleeping?
Um, you know, like a lot of
dimensions to this, isn't there?
Yeah.
There's, are they parked
funny when you go visit?
There are the neighbors, the
neighbors used to pull me aside.
My mom's like
lady friends who I always thought
were mean and, and caddy would
take like corner me in the pool
and say
like, your mom doesn't seem to be
doing too well.
And I'd be like, oh no, no, no,
no.
You're just,
you know, you're just being mean.
Um, but no, you know, like she was
starting to decline and we weren't
seeing it.
So you gotta, you gotta pay
attention.
So you really need to sort of take
your blinders
off and really look closely.
Yeah.
And a lot of people don't like to
do it.
It's scary, right?
Well, it might be too, because
often families, you know, when it
comes to money, it was
no conversation.
It was very private or they, you
know, individuals grew up during
times of poverty
and it was very, uh, a very
private matter.
It was very strict savings.
And then all of a sudden you're,
you're bringing it into the open.
You're talking about spending.
You may be talking about spending
large amounts of money for care
and that can be pretty shocking to
a care recipient or a loved one.
Yeah.
And then you get into all sorts of
things like, you know, mom doesn't
have money for care,
but mom went to get her hair done,
you know?
Oh, we're going to get to that.
So, you know,
why do money decisions become so
emotionally charged then so
quickly in caregiving?
Yeah, they do.
And then it's mom went to get her
hair done.
Then I'm going to get less of an
inheritance, you know?
Oops.
Yeah.
Oops.
Yeah.
Um, or one sibling, the mom wants
to stay at home and one
sibling is willing to facilitate
that and the other one thinks
that's too expensive and wants the
mom to
go to, uh, you know, assisted
living, um, cause it's cheaper
because that will preserve the
assets
longer so that some are left over
for them.
Um, it gets very, very tricky and
very emotional.
And
I think the only way to ground
yourself in it is to always come
back to, it's not your money if
you're
the caregiver.
It is the person you're caring
for.
Um, and it's their money to take
care of
themselves.
It's not their money to leave a
legacy.
And if you have to spend every
penny of it to take
care of them properly, then that's
what you need to do.
But nobody in this world likes to
have a pile of
money and spend it, um, when
nothing else comes into the pile.
So, you know, spending down to
zero is
just really, really hard for us.
It's a skill and there are books
written about it, right?
And it's not
something that's, uh, uh, that's
immediately entrenched if you've
spent a lifetime just planning and
doing
the opposite.
You know, speaking from a care,
from the perspective of a
caregiver who holds the power
of attorney then though, what does
financial caregiving or when does
it stop feeling like help and
start
feeling like just taking on power
over someone else's life?
I think, yeah, go ahead.
Emotionally,
it can sometimes be a little bit
disconcerting.
It can be.
Um, I went into it thinking that I
was
just helping and my mom was
supposed to have a back surgery
and then recover and then go back
to
her life.
She was 76.
You know, there wasn't anything
particularly, um, daunting that we
were
facing, but then she started to
have complications.
And from the moment she had
surgery till when she
passed away about eight or nine
months later, she never came back
online to handle anything.
And so I
was, you know, helping for like
three days before I took over
completely.
Um, that, that taking over
completely is going to depend on
what is wrong with the person, um,
and how much capacity they have.
A lot
of people find, I think, that when
their parent, um, gets ill, gets
ill enough to need some help with
their
finances.
Um, and they start taking over a
task.
It never goes back to them.
And then what they find
is that their parents are tired.
You know, this stuff is hard.
Um, and they don't need to be
sitting
there doing their taxes if
somebody else can, can help them
and do it for them.
Um, my mom in particular
had a hard time with her long-term
care insurance claim paperwork.
It was onerous and she stopped
doing
it right before her surgery.
And I didn't know that, um, until
I found out that the past do
notice.
But,
um, the, the financial stuff is
hard, you know, and if somebody
takes it over, it's, it's hard to
step
back into it then because you're,
you know, nobody wants to look at
that stuff.
And a lot of, um, older
people who are left, um, you know,
the dynamic we have in this
country is that a traditional
marriage
is, uh, you know, a man and a
woman and the man is the
breadwinner and he's traditionally
a few years
older than the woman and dies a
few years earlier, uh, you know,
has less longevity.
And so the women
who are left right now who are
older, um, aren't always
necessarily the, the breadwinners
or the
ones who were, uh, handling the
finances in the household.
Now that's changing and that won't
be
the case when my generation is 80.
Um, and certainly not when the
next generation is 80, but
typically in
a household, there is one person
who handles the finances and one
person who is, doesn't.
Um, and
what happens is invariably the
person who doesn't handle the
finances is the one who lives
longer.
And that person then, um, either
has to learn from scratch at a
very old age, um, how to do it,
or if they have children or
relatives or trusted people who
can take it over for them, they
just
skip a generation and don't do it.
And so there are, you know, whole,
uh, families that are sort of
wrapped around this, that you sort
of step in and take over way
before the person might have
needed
you to, if they had been the, the
bill payer in their household,
like the whole time.
Well, let's look at the scenario
though, where actually the care
recipient may have been the
person who was in charge of the
books for all those decades.
And when you have that power to
start
helping and taking over as a
financial caregiver, what does it
do to the caregiver when decisions
have real consequences and the
parent may actually not like
what's being decided for them?
It can cause some real conflict.
If the parent really doesn't like
what, what the decisions are,
um, and they have, uh, cognitive
ability, they can just change the
situation.
They're still in charge.
Nobody should ever be doing
anything, uh, against the care,
the person who's receiving care.
Um,
there should never be anything
that's against their wishes.
They can just remove the power of
attorney,
change the power of attorney.
Um, you know, if they have the
capability, then, then they have
the full
power.
So that, that situation should
really never come up.
Um, and if it does, then, you
know,
like you'll have a family fight on
your hands and, you know, somebody
may end up going to court to
remove the, the, the power of
attorney or trustee or what have
you.
Um, if the person who's being
cared for, uh, is already, you
know, sort of too out of it to
participate, you might have two
siblings
who fight over that dimension.
And really there's only one
solution and that's court.
There is,
you know, nothing else you can
mediate or whatever, but, um,
there is no arbiter of this except
for a
judge.
Like if mom or dad can't decide
for themselves, then you have to
go to a higher
authority.
And that higher authority is the U
S court system.
With more advanced dementia, you
could expect that change in all of
these elements, especially
financial caregiving and the
implications of the decisions
thereafter could really be
traumatizing,
because of the change environment,
change in routine and all of these
things.
I mean,
how do caregivers step into a
parent's financial life without
stripping away the parent's
dignity,
sense of adulthood, their privacy,
uh, all of these things.
Like it could, I could see it
could be
really traumatizing.
It is, uh, you know, you, you, I
learned to tread lightly, you
know, if my mom, um, you know, but
other
people have, you know, big
clodhopper feet and they don't
tread as lightly.
Um, my, you know, I've seen this
happen in other families where,
um, you know, there's a profligate
spender, you know, and they don't
have very
many resources and the elder, the
adult child comes in and says,
Hey, you know, you keep asking me
to bail
you out with cash, but you're
spending, uh, you know, on
nonsense, you know, I'm going to
go into
your Amazon account and I'm going
to look at what you're spending
on.
And I'm going to say, you don't
need this, you don't need that.
Um, you don't need cable.
You don't need, uh, the lawn
service
anymore.
Um, you know, maybe we should
ditch your car lease and get you,
you know, just Ubers wherever
you need to go.
So we don't have to pay the
insurance costs.
You shouldn't be driving anyway.
Um, you know,
you, you can't big foot it, um, in
a lot of these circumstances.
I mean, the classic decision we
talk
about is, um, you know, taking
away the car keys and how
difficult that is, right?
The money
control is even more difficult
than the car key discussion,
because at least with the car key
discussion, you can point to
consequences that are real and
dire.
Like you could kill yourself and
kill
other people if you get in that
car.
And we just cannot allow that to
happen, right?
I'm not putting
my kids in the car with you.
Nobody will drive with you and you
have to know it's time to not do
it.
Um, sometimes a doctor has to say,
you can no longer do this.
Doctors tend to shy away from
saying,
no, you know, you shouldn't, you
shouldn't have access to a credit
card anymore.
Um, you know,
but it's the same danger to a
family.
If you are going to get caught up
in scams, if you're going to,
uh, spend unwisely, um, there was
an episode of, there's a show
called the Conners.
I don't know
if you know it.
It's a spinoff of Roseanne.
Yes.
I remember hearing about that.
So there is a character
on there, um, you know, the mother
of Roseanne who has, uh, dementia
in the show.
And I interviewed
the producer of the show because
they had an episode or a series of
episodes, like a, a, a thread line
going through about, um, Beverly
spending on her credit card while
she has dementia.
And she just
started to, they would come over
and there were just all these
things, um, all around the
apartment.
And they said, Oh my God, you
know, um, we're good.
We can't pay this bill, you know?
And then it
became this whole discussion on,
on what is the family liability on
some, you know, an adult's, uh,
you know, a single adult's credit
card, right?
Um, were they going to have to pay
the bill with,
was she going to go to jail?
And then they, you know, and then
all of this happened because the
producer's mom had run up a huge
credit card balance, like $70,000
in debt while she
was undergoing cancer treatment
and she passed away.
And, um, he called to try to pay
off
the bill and they're like, Oh no,
you know, uh, we just write that
off.
You don't have to
pay her credit card bill.
Um, and so he worked this into the
show in a funny way because when
the, the family in the show
realizes what's going on, they
start jacking up the credit card
with all sorts of other stuff
thinking that the charges will get
wiped out.
Um, so, you know,
like if you have somebody who's
doing un, un-good things with
their money and you're the one
who's
going to be responsible at the end
of the day for somehow cleaning up
the mess, then yeah, step in
sooner rather than later.
Um, I know of a case where, um,
you know, uh, an elderly parent,
uh, racked up an IRS
debt.
Um, and they are less forgiving
than the credit card companies.
I think so.
Um, what had happened is there was
an
underpayment at some point.
Uh, she had not wanted to tell
anybody.
She was, you know, perfectly
capable of handling her own
life, she said.
Um, but, you know, the debt
lingered and, and interest accrues
and it ballooned to an amount
that she couldn't handle.
And she started to have other
issues that needed, she needed
help with.
And then
the kids found out about this huge
debt.
Um, and while they wouldn't have
to pay it, uh, upon her death,
the IRS would have put a lien on
the house and they wanted to
inherit that house and live in,
you know,
and, and keep that house.
And they weren't going to be able
to with, uh, an IRS lien on it.
Now credit
card isn't going to put a lien on
the house if it's in a trust or,
you know, properly protected, but
the
IRS can do what the IRS wants.
Um, and in that circumstance,
there, there really wasn't a way
to
avoid some way, somehow paying off
that debt if you wanted to keep
the house.
So, um, you know, these things,
there are ways that the
mismanagement of money is going to
affect
everybody in the family if you
don't step in and, and do
something about it.
So talk early, talk often is what
I'm hearing and keep your, keep
your radar gain really turned up.
There's really no harm in it.
I mean, my son just got his first
credit card.
He's 20.
Um,
and I said to him, you know, the
only way to build credit is to
make charges on your card and then
to
pay them off, right?
Each month and not accrue a
balance.
Um, and then I went through the
math with
him of if, you know, here's the
interest rates, cause we were
picking a credit card.
I'm like each of
these cards has a different
interest rate.
If you don't pay your bill one
month, they're going to charge
you 26% interest.
Um, and so say you charge $100,
you're going to pay $26 each month
until you pay it
off.
Um, and that can balloon very
quickly.
If you tell me about the $100,
I'll help you with the
$100.
I don't want to hear about it when
it's $6,000.
Um, so you have to promise me that
you are going to,
uh, come to me right away with no
judgment if you get behind on this
because it, it, it reverses the
purpose of what you're doing, you
know, with your credit score if
you do this.
So, you know, we have
that discussion at 20 in my
household.
Um, you need to be having that all
along with everybody.
Like,
don't wait until this is a huge
emergency.
If you need help now, um, with the
financial thing,
it's just going to end up costing
everybody much more.
Your house could get foreclosed,
you know, um, anything bad like
that.
And you got to know about it as
soon as possible.
So what should a caregiver do when
they can see that a parent needs
help with money, but the parent's
embarrassed, defensive, or very
private, or simply refuses to let
anyone in?
Um, well, one way to do
it is to sort of baby step it, um,
and offer help with, um, you know,
onerous tasks like taxes and
things like that.
Um, and if they really won't do
anything, you can keep offering.
Um, I talked to a
friend of mine about this and his
mother wouldn't let him anywhere
near her finances, right?
Like
pushed him away.
This guy was, uh, you know, an
expert in the bond market.
Like he really knew
what he was doing.
Um, and all he wanted to do was
take care of his mom, uh, after
his father passed
away.
He's like, dad left this money and
I just want her to manage it
smartly.
Well, she said, no,
no, no, no, no, no, no.
And he kept offering.
And every year he'd say, you know,
do you want me to
help you with this?
Can I take a look at things?
And she'd say no.
And then one year she forgot to
take her required minimum
distribution.
Um, which is, uh, when you reach a
certain age, the government
wants you to start taking money
out of your, um, pre-tax accounts
like your IRAs.
Yeah.
Same with
the RRSP in Canada.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, um, she had forgotten to do
it.
Well, in, if you forget to do it,
uh, you get huge penalties and
fees in the U S.
So, um, you know, she had to admit
to him that she
had messed that up.
And he said, mom, I can fix this
for you.
Uh, I can take care of the payment
and, uh, you know, I take care of
the process.
You have to go through the
paperwork or whatever.
And why don't you let me take over
this process for you so that you
don't, uh, ever have to think
about it again.
And she's like, you know what?
Okay.
You take over that one little
task.
Um,
and then he got a window into what
was going on because the RMD, uh,
the required distributions
really are a baseline for your
financial wellness.
Um, you can pretty much figure
everything out from
those.
And he was able to then just
slowly work his way into, you
know, more and more and more,
but also at the same time, she
needed more and more help.
So they kind of crossed paths,
uh, on the need and offer scale.
And, um, they were able to come to
some agreement of what he could
do to help her before it was an
emergency or two.
Um, you know, the, the thing is,
is if nothing ever
happens on this scale, um, if you
never reach or get through to the
parent who won't let you help,
you can still be prepared, um, for
emergencies and what, and whatnot
in your own, you know, knowledge
base.
And then just wait for disaster,
you know, like what else are you
going to do?
Um, you can either
be unprepared yourself and let
them roll into whatever emergency
it is, or you can be prepared
and when it does happen, you're
ready to go.
Um, I mean, parents are the ones
who've had the authority
over the years, over money,
resources, and decisions.
And in your experience working
with so many people
and having written about it, what
happens emotionally to the parent
when that authority
shifts to the adult child?
It must be really challenging in
some cases.
I think it really
is.
Um, I mean, I tried to spin it to
my mom as look at how good you
raised me, you know, like
didn't you, wasn't the whole
purpose of everything that you
modeled for me and everything that
you
taught me wasn't all leading up to
this moment where I could stand on
my own two feet as an adult
and not only do that, but also
help you like, isn't this what you
wanted?
Um, isn't this what you
expected to happen?
I mean, I feel that way about my
kids, you know, like, um, I would
think that at
some point, you know, it would be
a source of pride.
Like my kids can take care of me.
Um, so I tried
to spin it that way.
I don't know if it got through to
her or not, but she did, you know,
we, we, we're a family that says,
I love you.
Um, and I'm proud of you and thank
you a lot.
So,
uh, she did say those things, all
those things to me, you know, and
they were really meaningful to me
to know that, um, at one point she
said to me, you know, I'm only
asking you to do this because I,
I, I trust you and I know you can
handle it.
Um, and that meant a lot to me.
So much of caregiving calls on
grace and compassion and I think
financial caregiving equally in
those
really strong emotional moments.
Yeah, I think so too.
And I think that if you talk to
each other all
along, you know, as honestly and
as openly as you can, you build
that over years and years and
years,
you know, that's not something
that just comes up at end of life.
Couldn't have said it better.
We're going to take a break and,
uh, be right back.
And in the
meantime, we're going to hear from
our illustrious production team
and the tradition of the podcast,
seeing if they have any questions
for our guest.
Um, so Beth, I been listening to
this conversation
and there's moments where I
recognize things that are going on
in my own family.
And,
um, just with the example of my
mom, who's, uh, 76 and in good
health and there's, there's no
looming
threat or emergency around her
care.
Um, but she, um, you know, I've
expressed an interest in
understanding more about what her
wishes are going to be around her
estate.
Um, you know, uh, planning for,
um, funeral, that sort of thing.
And, and, uh, just not wanting to
get caught off guard when it comes
to,
like, wills and trust and that
sort of thing.
Also, um, with a growing
understanding about how
you can minimize tax obligations
by properly planning.
And so I keep coming forward with
this
and trying to have these
conversations and it's typically
met with, well, I'm not that old
yet,
or I don't need this right now,
or, um, and it's not that she's
rebuffing me in a, in a sort of an
aggressive way, or she's elbowing
me away, but there's just sort of
this general unwillingness
to have any sort of conversation
about anything.
And I find that is really
difficult because I know
we're very close.
I mean, we've had our ups and
downs, but we're, we're close, we
have a close
relationship.
And I know that if something
happens, I'm going to be dealing
with whatever that, that
like health emergency is, or if
she passes, I'm going to be
dealing with, with sadness and,
you know,
grief.
And it's, I don't want to have to
also then be sorting through
papers or looking to find where,
where a, where a will has been
stashed or like trying to find
those permission keys that you've
mentioned earlier.
Is, is there a way I can approach
this and sort of try to get her to
understand that,
you know, this is really for,
it's, it's just, it's, it's a way
that she can support her children
by
actually providing this
information so that we can just
focus on either the care emergency
or, or
grieving her loss.
And just, is there a way that, is
there a sort of an entry point
into that
conversation that, that you could
help me with?
Yeah.
So, um, sorry to ask, I'm a
journalist,
so I always ask questions, um,
before I answer anything.
Uh, is your dad still alive?
Is there,
does she have a husband of any
sort or a significant other of any
sort?
So she, uh, my parents split up
when I was like 20 and she has
remarried and they've been
together for like 30 years.
Okay.
So, um,
immediately there, uh, she has a
circumstance where, um, you would
want to trust of some sort,
uh, like right off the bat,
because, uh, if she dies before
her significant other,
uh, what happens to, what, what
about you and any siblings you
might have?
Um, so this is a very
common scenario that, that a lot
of families deal with.
Um, and I call it the evil
step-parent
syndrome.
Um, and it goes both ways.
Like sometimes it's the kids who
are evil and sometimes it's the
stepmother or stepfather or
whatever.
Um, but the order of death and the
way things pass, um,
it, it, it gets derailed from who
you might want it to go to.
Uh, so if your mom passed away,
all of her assets would go to her
married spouse, um, and not to
you, um, she might intend to leave
some stuff to you or any siblings
you might have, um, but they're
not going to go there.
It would be on
your step-parent to generously
give to you what she intended.
And he's not evil, by the way,
just, just to go on the record.
That's why it's a trope or a
cliche.
Um, but if, if she wants to make
sure she needs to write it down,
um, so the way, the way into this
conversation with somebody who
doesn't want to deal with it
is to say that you, she doesn't
need to necessarily pass that
information onto you and you might
not need
to know it right now, but she has
to take care of all this stuff and
put it in a folder of some sort.
Um, I call it the death folder.
Uh, you know, my book has a
workbook in the back that walks
you
through it.
There are these things called next
of kin boxes, um, or binders where
you put all the
information.
Um, I have a binder, um, in my
house and I'm always saying to my
kids, like, remember where
the binder is.
If anything happens to me, who
knows where the binder is?
I like quiz them.
Um, and so
everybody knows if something
happens to me, they just have to
go to this little tote bag that
the
lawyer gave me and everything that
they need is, is in there.
Um, and my mom did that because I
went
to her and I said, um, you, you
need to, you as a single adult,
after my father died, I'm like,
you need to take care of these
things because anything that you
had going on while my dad was
alive is moot now, right?
Like you're single and nobody else
can act for you.
And you need a whole
new set of permission slips
because you have to put me or my
brother or both of us on all of
these
documents.
You have to update all your
beneficiaries, you know, like
there's all these things you have
to
do as a responsible human being so
that I'm not stuck in a big mess.
Um, so, uh, the way this came up
for
us is I had written, um, an
article about the death folder and
what should be in your death
folder, you know, copy of your
birth certificate, a copy of
social security, your marriage
license,
you know, all these things.
And, um, you know, I was writing
at Reuters for the time and
Reuters is
syndicated.
And the article ended up in my
mom's hometown newspaper.
And my mom, older people are
wanting to do,
like, she would clip stuff that
she thought I'd be interested in
and mail them to me.
And she said,
she had started to clip out this
art, wonderful article about this
death file that she thought I
would love.
And then she gets to the top of
the article and she's like, Oh,
she wrote it.
Um, and I'm
like, yeah, and read the article
and do all of those things.
And she's like, okay, well, how do
I get a
lawyer to, you know, I'm like,
here's a link, click on the link
and, you know, pick a lawyer.
Um, and,
and so she did it.
Uh, and it, my father died in
April and by July, she had a whole
new estate plan
for about four or $5,000.
And when it, that was, you know,
five years before anything
happened to her.
So, um, you know, she was, she was
all set.
She was prepared.
And, you know, anybody in the
universe needs to do that.
We typically do not do this until
we hit our sixties.
Um, but we need to
do this all along.
And I'm just trying to get more
people to realize that like you
need to do it.
I don't think that, I don't think
that parents realize like as the
years advance and everyone's
getting older, the stress that it
can cause when these things
haven't been sorted out, like it
causes
a lot of stress and anxiety for
the adult children, not knowing
like how to deal with this stuff.
And
it's just, um, I think there's
kind of a lack of recognition of
what that can, how that can impact
the kids.
Um, yeah, well, it may be a double
phase though, right?
After, after everybody leaves
the house and like, you realize I
don't need as much term insurance
because a lot of my liabilities
are no longer an issue.
Maybe you kind of go into this
sort of dormant phase where you're
like,
meh, everything will work out in
time.
But I got through that first
chunk, that first wave,
but to your point, you still need
to sort of stay on top of things.
Yeah.
You could start by doing it
yourself, you know, do your own
paperwork, get your own house
in order and then tell your, your,
your mom what your plan is and
say, here's what I'm doing and
setting up.
Uh, I, could you do any of this,
you know, for me, could you be my
power of attorney or
can you be my backup power of
attorney?
Um, and then say, okay, what about
you?
Are you doing any of
this is, do you have this taken
care of?
Because people respond to that
sort of thing a lot better
than, um, you know, just a, a, a
finger wagging and saying, you
need to do this.
Well, we need to do it too.
Like I talk to my wife about this
all the time.
We still haven't,
it's like one of those things
we're going to do it next week.
We're going to do it before this
holiday,
before you travel, before, before,
before, but we actually need to do
it ourselves.
So
it's a great reminder.
Thanks for answering my question.
Now you're going to do it Monday.
Right.
No, I was sitting here thinking,
God, I got up to, I got to update
the binder.
I do this to a lot of people.
It's kind of my, it's kind of my
special power.
It's a good power.
It's a valuable power.
Beth, I'd like to change gears a
little bit.
We've been talking a lot about the
individual and the relationship
with the parent, but I'd like to
get
into something that's a little bit
more challenging, a little bit
more sticky.
So why does financial caregiving
so often leave one person carrying
the responsibility,
but also the blame and the
emotional weight for the whole
family?
Yeah, because nobody understands
money.
And these, these tasks are
difficult and everybody thinks if
they aren't handling it
themselves,
then somebody's stealing or doing
something wrong.
Um, I have, um, by the time this
comes out, the,
the piece I'm writing currently is
about sibling fights over
caregiving.
Um, and I interviewed this,
uh, pair of sisters and their
conflict was over, um, you know,
managing the care of their mother
and how it
was getting done.
And one sister was doing it.
Then the other sister came over
and took over the
tasks.
And then the other sister, um, the
first sister who was doing it in
the first place just
started to criticize her older
sister.
Um, and didn't want to do it
herself, but didn't think the
other
sister was doing it the right way.
Um, this is what happens.
Uh, so this is why, you know,
you get back to the mechanics of
it, right?
Um, you're going to manage your
family's, your,
your parents' money.
You have, you know, mom's bank
account.
If you, if you have more than one
sibling in the family, um, and one
of them is going, you're going to
make one of them joint owner on
the
bank account.
Um, but not the other one.
Then the other one automatically
thinks the first one is
stealing.
Um, they want to know what's going
on, but if you're joint owner, you
have no
responsibility, uh, and no, um,
need to keep receipts.
You're a joint owner.
You can do whatever
you want.
Um, and what happens then is when
the person, when mom dies, uh, mom
might have in her
will, uh, you know, I want my bank
account to go split between my two
children.
Well, if one is joint
owner, that supersedes whatever's
in the will or the trust, or even
the benefit, even if there's a pay
on,
on death, uh, beneficiary name,
the joint owner gets the account.
Um, and therefore it's in their,
you know, purview as a generous
person to split it the way mom
said, but they don't have to
legally.
And so this is sort of like the
baseline of what happens in all
family disputes, um, between
siblings.
Uh, one is doing something with
the money and the other one feels
cut out.
And if there's any sort of
history of, uh, narcissism,
addiction, um, you know, whatever,
like mental health issues, um, it
can get all
blown out of proportion and, um,
you know, everybody in, in legal,
in a legal sense has an equal
footing
here.
You know, like if your parent
dies, if mom dies without a will
at all, the state's going to split
everything 50-50 between, you
know, uh, two siblings or split it
up whatever way is necessary for
multiple
siblings.
And that distrust builds.
Um, and I think the power of
attorney can solve it because the
power of
attorney is a legal fiduciary
responsibility and you can be held
to account.
So if you think your sibling is
stealing
money in that capacity, you can,
uh, ask for help from the court.
You can have them removed if you
can prove
it, um, and if it's happening.
And so there's a certain sense of
responsibility that comes with
that, that, um,
makes for a transparent
transaction.
Now, when I was caregiving, I
wasn't worried the least bit about
my brother
being upset about anything I did
with the money.
I was worried about my mom being
upset with what I did with
the money.
Um, cause I thought she was going
to come back around and be like,
okay, what'd you do?
You know, um, I need you to keep
track of and keep records of
everything because this is my
money, my life.
Um, what happens when resentment
creeps in though, and then they
resent the decisions and they
resent not
being chosen.
It can really snowball.
It can really snowball.
And the parent can have a huge
role in this,
but the parent is often the
problem to begin with.
So, uh, it's not always the best,
um,
way to get the problem solved.
If you have a narcissistic parent
who has always played their
children off of each other for
their entire lives, it's not going
to change.
It's not going to help the
situation any for them to
communicate, um, because they're
just going to continue playing,
you know,
playing the kids off each other,
um, in a caregiving situation.
So, um, it really depends on sort
of the
emotional health of the family.
And that's a purely psychological
thing rather than a financial
thing.
All the financial stuff does the,
the trusts and the power of
attorneys and all that stuff
is it creates a structure where,
um, decisions have to be fulfilled
and, um, you know, standards need
to
be kept and there's transparency
and that, um, allows you to have
some trust in the system.
Like it builds a legal structure
and the emotions can swirl around
in it, but you know, nobody can
break the rules, right?
If, if, if you're in the situation
of a blended family, for instance,
um, you
don't have to rely on the kindness
of the step-parent who inherits
all the money to give it to the
children.
And the children don't have to
like curry favor with the
step-parent just so that they get,
you know,
dad's favorite painting or
whatever.
Um, they know that the mom or
whoever did, you know, whatever's
parent has created a legal
structure that has to be followed.
And then they don't have to worry
about
it anymore.
Um, and you can really cover
almost, you know, all the
permutations that you might face.
Like there are all these like
complicated trusts out there that
account for the fact that like in
second marriages, it's often the
case or sometimes the case that,
um, the second spouse, uh, is the
same age as the adult children in
some cases.
And so if you build the trust, you
know, that the kids
inherit when the second spouse
dies, the kids may die first, you
know, like you don't know,
they may never inherit.
Um, so they have like solutions to
all of these, you know, really
human situations that crop up.
It seems like those solutions that
will arise or become appreciable
once conversations are had
early on and there's a process
that's been established.
You don't jump into these
overnight
or understand them overnight.
So again, to your point that you
brought up earlier, which I think
is so important, speak early,
speak often, make it, make it a
non-taboo subject.
It's part of
planning.
And I think a really important
thing that you mentioned there,
and we hear about fiduciary
duties, uh, for financial planners
and advisors, but the fiduciary
duty of the power of attorney,
I think is a really important
concept for listeners to
understand because, you know,
you're acting in the
best interest of the person you've
been made power of attorney.
Yeah, no, it's, it's absolutely
essential to be able to trust that
person.
Um, so think about it if it's not
a family member,
right?
Um, you know, your power of
attorney, um, and the trustee on
your will, uh, the executor on
your will or the trustee of your
trust doesn't have to be a family
member and often isn't.
Um,
it can also be a person you're
paying to do that task.
Um, and those people are under the
same
obligations as a family member
would be.
Whoever it is in that, that role,
um, you know, agrees to
act in that fashion.
Um, so you wouldn't want, uh, a
third party who's not related to
you to,
to, um, be your power of attorney
without that.
Like, I think people would think
you were crazy,
right?
Like, oh, I just signed up Joe
Schmo from down at the bank to
handle all of my life affairs.
Um, and you're like, oh, is he a
fiduciary?
I don't know.
Um, I don't think so.
Well then,
what's Joe doing?
You know, like, so are you
automatic savings?
Right.
Yeah, exactly.
No,
that's, and we've seen, we've seen
so much of that, right?
And those, the, some of those
individuals,
advisors who have a definition of
fiduciary responsibility are not
always easy to find,
um, to your point, right?
You need to, you need to hunt for
the right, uh, the right
individual to
look after you and your family or,
um, the estate of the future
estate of the person you're
caregiving
for.
You know, do you find that adult
children will often step into the
role of financial caregiver
because they're just so afraid
that other children in the family
would misuse the power
or not handle the parents' money
well?
Well, I mean, that becomes, uh, a
legal question then,
because like, you can step in and
be helpful to your parent, but
they have to, they have to sign
the papers.
Right.
So you can't just sort of worm
your way in and take care of it
without somebody
stamping it with a seal of
approval.
So, um, you know, there are people
in families who step up to
take care of things, and I think
it typically just ends up being
like the long-suffering person who
gets
stuck with all the hard things in
the family, right?
Like, um, you know, most
caregivers are
women.
Most caregivers are daughters, uh,
you know, in their mid-fifties,
uh, who have a lot going on,
um, because they get stuff done.
And who know how to get stuff
done.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So why does money then become just
so explosive between siblings when
a parent's aging, especially
when every decision can feel
connected to like fairness,
inheritance, control, or of
course,
old family roles that are brought
back?
Yeah.
I think it's just, uh, I think
it's a lack of understanding and
awareness of, um,
money itself and how it grows and
where you keep it.
And, um, you know, when people are
sitting on a
nest egg, it's just a general
retirement problem, whether it's
caregiving or not.
Like my mom and
brother used to get very, very
anxious over the money flying out
the door.
And they would say,
oh my God, you know, we have to
cut back.
We have to, you know, um, we can't
have 24 seven care.
We,
you know, we, we can't do this.
We don't have enough money.
And, you know, as a certified
financial
planner, I could run the numbers
and I could say, um, put it in
software or run it through my,
you know, my financial calculator
and say, okay, no, we actually do
have the
money.
We're okay.
You know, at this particular rate
of spending, we can make it, you
know,
X number of months.
Um, and then, then we can make
another decision like selling the
house.
And then
that carries us another three
years.
Um, you know, so like I could run
the map and put, um,
you know, in our business, we call
it the time value of money, right?
I could put a time value of money
that was fairly exact on my mom's,
uh, resources that were available
and allow for permutations of more
spending here and more spending
there.
And I could run different
scenarios.
Um, and in the book, I go through
a way for people to do that.
Um, it is-
You outlined it really well.
I, I, I looked at that chapter and
sort of, uh, really appreciated
what,
uh, what that exercise could do.
I don't think we're really well
informed, um, you know, from 50
onwards about, about these tools
that are available.
It's not instinctively, uh, on our
radar, but they
can be really helpful.
They can be because, you know, if
your anxiety is just in general,
like chicken little and the sky
is falling, you're going to make
bad decisions.
Um, but if you have a really
measured approach and
understand what all of the cards
on the table and then can add up
the cards, um, you're going to be
in a much better emotional place.
Uh, it's hard math though.
I will say like I studied for two
years,
um, and I've been doing this
professionally for a long time.
It's, it's not just addition and
subtraction, you know, like you're
running a lot of variables at the
same time and it's hard for a
lot of people to keep track of.
Um, you know, when in doubt, I say
get professional help, you know,
at some point in this journey, you
need to have some kind of lawyer.
Um, you really can't get through
these processes on your own.
Um, you know, there are, there'll
be people who tell you that, you
know, probating a will isn't
really that big of a deal and you
can do it yourself.
No, you know,
like, do you even like the first
question is, do you want to, um,
because there was no way I was
going
to walk my mom's will into the
Broward County probate, you know,
uh, court and try to do it myself.
Like I was grieving.
I had COVID like, like, no, it was
like the worst time of my life.
Um, I was not
going to learn a new skill.
Um, you know, a financial planner
can come in handy.
Um, the taxes are
complicated.
Uh, and you know, like trying to
do, uh, uh, somebody else's taxes
from scratch or when
they're sick or trying to do after
death taxes, it's really beyond
the normal person's tax abilities.
And I'm good at taxes and I, you
know, I volunteer and do taxes for
other people.
Um, and I, I couldn't
handle it.
There's also that other notion in
the calculations too, that, you
know, if, if there is an element
of
longevity, the person you're
caring for that you need to
account for, it's tough if all
they're
used to doing is having their
money, for example, in treasury
bills that don't keep up with
inflation
yet.
We know that costs of care are
going to go up year by year.
And if they have a decade ahead of
them in the setting of a chronic,
you know, neurodegenerative
disease, for example, um, there's
lots of changes to the framework
that are going to be a shock to
the system when, you know, when
the
parent or the, or the loved one is
realizing that everything that
they were used to is suddenly
changing and being managed
differently.
And that can certainly take a
toll.
That can definitely take a toll.
And I think if my mom had seen the
way I managed her money,
it would have made her very
nervous.
She was an extremely conservative,
uh, investor and I am not,
you know, but I'm at the right age
to not be an investor like that.
Um, she was that way her whole
adult life.
So, um, yeah, no, I think she
would have had a hard time with,
with the decisions I made.
Um, but at some point she got too
tired to think about them.
And so she just had to trust.
I'll never forget, um, just from
my own experience and during the
2008 financial crisis,
trying to explain to my parents
that it's not a loss until you
sell.
So don't sell.
Yeah.
And I think I repeated that about,
um, 14,000 times, but, uh,
fortunately, uh, we understood
each other.
Well, that's good.
Uh, not a lot of people listened
to that message and they ended up,
uh, you know, it's easier to sell
than it is to buy back in and
nobody ever, you know,
you could think you're the most
brilliant person when you sell in
a down market.
Um, but if you don't
buy in a down market on the way
you don't catch the, the way it
goes back up.
Yep.
So you mentioned a really
important point that I want to get
back to like, when does helping
an aging parent with money stop
being advice, but actually start
requiring legal authority to act?
You should always have legal
authority to act.
Um, you shouldn't, if you're going
to touch anything,
you should have legal authority.
Um, a lot of people try to fake it
for a while.
Uh, they'll get the
logins and things like that.
Um, but you shouldn't ever log
into anybody's account without the
legal
authority.
And these days it's actually
really hard to, because, um, you
know, the brokerage
accounts are two factored bank
accounts have two factor
authentication.
Um, I was talking to a, uh,
uh, executive at a, um, estate
planning conference and her mom,
uh, has to mention she's her power
of
attorney and she needed to change
the beneficiary designation
because her father died and the,
her dad was the beneficiary of her
mom's account.
And all she needed to do was call
up the brokerage
and ask for a beneficiary, a new
beneficiary form to be sent.
And she called up the 800 number
and
she said she was her mom because
she didn't want to deal with the
rigmarole of the power of attorney
documents first.
So she calls up, she says, she's
her mom and immediately, you know,
to the automated
system, who's calling, you know,
and you say, you know, uh,
whatever, uh, I'm Estelle.
And, uh,
immediately somebody jumped on the
phone and they said, can we
confirm your identity please?
Cause you
don't sound like Estelle's normal
voice, you know, hung up the phone
really quickly because, um, she's
going to get caught.
Um, but like, you know, it can be
innocuous or it can be, uh,
nefarious and they
don't know the difference in the
customer service center.
So they have to check.
Um, so faking it,
you know, it's going to get you
in, in a, in a pickle down very
quickly.
And, uh, so you have
to have legal authority if you're
going to touch anything.
If you're just going to look over
things
and give advice and they're going
to do it, um, then fine.
But make sure that like, even
then,
um, you know, that can be seen
from the outside as financial
manipulation.
If you're standing behind
them while they're at the computer
and they're doing something and
you're telling them what to do,
um, you have to think, what would
somebody who walked into this room
or overheard this conversation
think?
Would they think that I am
manipulating them?
And if the answer is yes, then you
should
have some documentation that says
that because you might get to the
point where you are in the room
when your parent calls the
financial institution and they are
the ones talking.
But if they hear you
talking to the, your parent,
they're going to flag that
conversation too.
Lots to think about.
Yeah.
You've worked with lots of
individuals and met and
interviewed lots of individuals.
And this is a
question that probably comes up,
which people wonder about, but
should a family caregiver actually
ever be compensated for managing a
parent's finances in the family
context?
I mean, it can be a lot of work.
Um, like, is there a way a family
can handle that sort of
transparently without creating
suspicion or
conflict?
Absolutely.
Um, I think that if there is a lot
of work involved, then, um, you
could account for that
in a will or a trust for there to
be sort of some sort of management
fee.
Think about like,
if you did have to hire somebody
to do it instead of that person,
um, in a trust, you would probably
be
paying 1% per year, um, you know,
of the assets in the trust.
So, you know, a will with lots of,
with lots of assets, you know,
could require quite a bit of work
and, you know, the person who's
managing
it, um, you know, could get
compensated in that way.
Now it would be up to, you know,
the degree of the
assets involved.
Like my mom didn't have enough
money to consider anything like
that.
Um, and I
was doing it, you know, not for,
for that purpose, but my brother
did offer at various points to be
like, you know, why don't I take
less of a share of X, Y, or Z
because you're doing all the work.
Um,
or why don't you, you know, put a
line item for yourself in there.
And I was like, no, it'll just
come around to me on the back end.
You know, I don't, I don't need
to, to do that.
Um, the real
money that's needed is for
physical caregivers who are giving
up something of their own in order
to do
that caregiving.
Um, they have their parents living
with them.
They are pulling a night shift and
working
during the day or something like
that.
Um, there are community resources
available for some of those,
um, those type of caregivers.
The VA, for instance, um, has a
family attendant, uh, a stipend
that can
be accessed.
It's really hard paperwork to go
through, but you can get it.
Um, various communities
have, uh, stipends for that.
Um, I think Medicaid does too in
certain circumstances.
It's going to
be state dependent.
It's going to be circumstance
dependent.
The money's getting more and more
scarce
as you get older, um, as, as time
goes along.
Um, you know, it's, there are
resources out there where
caregivers can get external money,
not family money for doing that
task.
Um, one of the caregivers I
interviewed for my book, um, took
early retirement in order to be a
stay-at-home caregiver for his
father.
Now, his mother had had home, uh,
attendance, um, but they found one
of them to be abusive.
Um, and so when it came time for
the dad to need care, they didn't
want to go with an outside
caregiver.
They wanted, this, this man wanted
to do it himself, but it meant
retiring early from his job.
And he said
to his siblings, you know, like, I
need, um, the difference in my
pension made up in order to do
that.
It'll cost less than what a
caregiver would cost us, but it'll
make up for me not, um, you know,
working another couple of years to
get my full pension.
And the siblings were like, yeah,
if you
can do that for dad, you know, we
would greatly appreciate that.
Um, but that's where communication
comes into play.
He ran the numbers, he made the
offer, they all talked about it
and they came to a
consensus.
I mean, what a positive, good
feeling family engagement story.
Like I can imagine there's
some listeners today who are
hearing all of this and coming to
some important realizations, but
there's
a looming fear in the room and
said, what if the numbers don't
work?
So when there's not enough money
to provide care, a patient, a
parent needs, like what impossible
choices does that force onto the
caregiver?
It, it's really hard.
Um, your choice is to rely on a
social safety net, which about
half of
people in nursing care are paid
for by Medicaid, um, in the U S.
Um, and then you have to decide
whether
you're going to put your dollars
on the table.
My mom had to pay for the care of
her mom.
Um, and she
wanted to make sure that I didn't
have to pay for her care.
Um, so she had long-term care
insurance
and she had savings and I didn't
have to, you know, pay for the
caregivers out of my own pocket,
um, because of that.
Now I want to make sure that my
kids not only don't have to pay
for my care,
um, but also, you know, have an
easier time with some of the
logistics and whatever.
Um,
and the key to that is not putting
your own retirement savings in
jeopardy.
Um, so, you
know, if you're thinking, if you
have a parent that you're
caregiving for and you're like,
you're
thinking, uh, I need to put money
on the table to get them, you
know, nursing care, that's going
to
deplete your resources and
perpetuate the circle because then
your kids are going to have to pay
for you and they're going to lose
their retirement savings and then
their kids are going to have to
pay for them.
Um, the social safety nets are
there for people who have run
through their assets and who
don't have very much income.
Um, you know, you can rely on
those safety nets and still be a
good
caregiver, um, and still take care
of things and still love your
parent.
There are plenty of people.
So it's not shameful.
Yes.
It's not shameful at all.
There's 67 million people in
America
on Medicaid.
I mean, it's everybody.
Um, you know, we, the cost of care
is catastrophic.
Um,
and if you decide you want to pay
for it yourself, uh, you know, I
don't want to presume
anything, but you can't afford it.
Um, you can't, you just can't, you
can't afford it for you and you
can't afford it for your parents.
Like it's just, I think puts the
number about on average seven,
between seven and $8,000 a year
out of pocket is provided by
caregivers to contribute to the
care
of their loved one.
That's just out of pocket.
That's just buying dinner and
groceries.
Not to
mention the indirect costs.
And I think, you know, to your
point earlier where, you know,
um, just because of traditional
gender roles, women take on such a
huge burden of caregiving.
I think
the numbers are between 315,
400,000 of lost pension capital,
uh, because of the choices that
individuals have to make or
sometimes even not the choices
because sometimes they don't have
a choice
to caregiving.
Right.
It's a big burden.
It is.
So when one caregiver is making
the financial
decisions, what do they need to
document, communicate, and protect
so that they're not left carrying
any
blame alone?
Um, they should keep a spreadsheet
of, uh, any monies that come in to
them or go out from
them.
So like, for instance, I had a
spreadsheet that, um, when, uh,
reimbursement check would come
from the long-term care insurance,
I would cash it.
And then that money would go back
out to pay,
you know, for other things.
And I had a spreadsheet that
marked the ins and outs of that.
Um, I kept
track of my flights.
Um, you know, I didn't bother with
the nickel and dime stuff.
Um, you know,
when I bought, uh, you know,
blankets or groceries or, you
know, my mom liked dairy queen,
um, you know,
those were just treats.
So I didn't, I didn't bother with
that sort of stuff.
But, um, like for instance,
the first big expense I paid, I
faced was, um, you know, she
needed a check FedEx to the
long-term care
insurance company for $6,800.
I had to pay that out of my
pocket.
Um, you know, and then I got
reimbursed later.
So like, you need a paper trail of
all of these things.
You need a folder.
Um, and you
just, you just keep it all.
And, um, you know, a little diary,
a little notebook, you know, uh,
your cell phone is really useful
in this circumstance.
Uh, when you get receipts, snap a
picture, put it in
a folder, um, you know,
communications from the doctors.
A lot of people do a Google
calendar that
they share or a Google drive or a
WhatsApp, um, group chat kind of
thing.
And they, you know,
we'll update notes.
Um, cause a lot of times, you
know, if I was on the ground in
Florida,
talking to the doctors, um, I
would write notes up after the
conversation and share them with
my
brother.
And if my brother was there, he
would share them with me so that
we both knew what was going on
all the time.
Um, you know, that was really,
really helpful for both of us
because, you know, then we
didn't, one, we didn't feel like
we were missing out on anything.
Nothing was going to catch us by
surprise.
And, you know, it was just,
there's so many digital ways now
to share information
that it makes, uh, it makes it
easy.
And so why not make use of these
things?
You went through this experience
and so many people do.
As a caregiver, how do you know
when you've done enough, even when
every option feels imperfect and
other family members may be
unhappy in the end regardless?
Um, you, you know, you've done
enough when you sit down by the
bedside
of the person who's sick and you
just have a minute to say, you
know, I love you and I care about
you.
Um, all you're trying to do with
all this paperwork stuff is get it
out of the way so that you can,
uh,
be with your loved ones.
Um, and so if you have a minute in
the day to just be, um, be
present,
be in the moment, uh, you know,
sit there, that's what you're
looking for.
That's the successful goal.
Um, even if you don't say anything
and you just hold hands, um,
whatever it is, like that's the
important stuff.
And all this paperwork and
nonsense is, is the goal for me in
writing this book was to
give people the information they
needed to get it out of the way,
right?
If you do this stuff, um,
as I've laid it out, your life
will be easier.
Everybody's lives will be easier
and you can get
back to the stuff that really
matters.
I'd like to commend you for that
because I think it's a great
book and it's chock full of
information.
I was telling my mom that mom on
Friday, I'm interviewing
Beth from New York and, uh, she's
a financial planner.
We're going to talk about finances
and
caregiving.
And she's got this book called my
mother's money.
And she said, you know, maybe I
should read it.
That's, I mean, that's what I tell
people to do.
It sounds self-serving, but like
if you can't have a conversation
with your parents about these
things, like hand them my book and
be
like Beth Pinsker had to do all
this really hard stuff because her
mom didn't do X, Y, or Z, or she
didn't do X, Y, or Z.
And she wants us to learn from her
mistakes.
Um, so it's a wonderful, it's a
wonderful contribution.
And, you know, part of the why,
uh, of this podcast is to make our
listeners
not feel alone and to bring
expertise within reach.
And we certainly appreciate your
expertise
and your experience and the time
you took to spend with us today.
Well, thank you very much.
A big thank you and, uh, wish you
well and look forward to your next
book.
It'll be coming.
Wonderful.
Thank you.
That wraps up this week's episode
of the Caregivers Podcast.
I'm your host, Dr.
Mark.
We'll see you
next time.
Beth, thank you for helping us
speak to a part of caregiving that
so many people are living,
but very few people know how to
name.
I think one of the clearest
reminders from this conversation
is that financial caregiving is
not just about paperwork,
accounts, or planning.
It's about
power, duty, fear, family tension,
and the weight of making decisions
that can affect a parent's
safety, dignity, and their future.
For anyone listening who's
carrying that responsibility right
now, I hope this conversation
helped you feel seen and a little
less alone in what can be a very
isolating role.
And if this episode meant
something to you, please take a
moment to rate the Caregivers
Podcast on Apple Podcasts or
Spotify or wherever you listen.
It really helps other people find
the
show.
Before we wrap up, I wanted to
remind you of something important.
The conversations you hear on
this podcast are here to inform,
to support, to spark reflection.
We're not a substitute for
professional medical advice, care,
therapy, or crisis services.
Listening to this podcast does not
create
a doctor-patient or
caregiver-client relationship
between us.
If you're facing a medical
concern,
health challenge, a mental health
challenge, or a caregiving
situation that needs guidance,
I encourage you to reach out to a
qualified professional who knows
your story.
If you're ever in crisis,
please don't wait.
Call your local emergency number
or recognize crisis hotline right
away.
You deserve real-time help and
support.
The views you hear on this show,
whether from me or my guests,
are our own.
They don't necessarily reflect any
organizations we work with, are
part of,
or have worked with, or been part
of in the past.
This podcast is an independent
production.
It's not tied to any hospital,
university, or healthcare system.
Thank you for being here,
for listening, and most of all,
for taking the time to care for
yourself while you continue to
care for others.
I look forward to hearing from
you.